the two proposals are emergency legislation or use the normal machinery. the justice legislation or use the normal machinery. thejustice secretary said in the house of commons that they would only pursue the unprecedented course of legislation if all other possibilities had been exhausted. they haven't been. we are one of the few countries in the world that has standing machinery to correct miscarriages ofjustice. i am very proud of that. it is one of the features of our criminaljustice system that is quite outstanding. that machinery exists. criminal cases review commission, they can solve this problem in a way that delivers realjustice to these

individuals and in a way that legislation will not. you individuals and in a way that legislation will not.- individuals and in a way that legislation will not. you are akc. i am interested _ legislation will not. you are akc. i am interested in _ legislation will not. you are akc. i am interested in what _ legislation will not. you are akc. i am interested in what you - legislation will not. you are akc. i am interested in what you think. legislation will not. you are akc. i l am interested in what you think the judges who ruled in all of these cases are now thinking. i judges who ruled in all of these cases are now thinking.- judges who ruled in all of these cases are now thinking. i have no doubt that _ cases are now thinking. i have no doubt that they _ cases are now thinking. i have no doubt that they are _ cases are now thinking. i have no doubt that they are as _ cases are now thinking. i have no doubt that they are as angry - cases are now thinking. i have no doubt that they are as angry as i doubt that they are as angry as everybody else is at the way they have been misled and duped and have been involved in this system. i am absolutely convinced, though i haven't talked to anybody on this particular topic, that thejudges in the court of appeal criminal division would be as determined as anybody to put things right. do you think it is going to be a quick solution or are we looking at many more years before it is all sorted? know that not years, that is what has been suggested. i couldn't understand it. it said left to the existing machinery it will be left

for two to three years. this is unprecedented in magnitude and you will have real determination like the way dealt with covid or should have dealt with it, a pandemic, a war situation. you throw resources at it and recruit people to do the job. we are talking in my opinion a few months at most to get the right answer. ., ~' few months at most to get the right answer. ., ~ , ., ., ., , answer. thank you for “oining us. i appreciate — answer. thank you for “oining us. i appreciate your h answer. thank you for “oining us. i appreciate your time. — answer. thank you forjoining us. i appreciate your time. you - answer. thank you forjoining us. i appreciate your time. you are - appreciate your time. you are watching bbc news was that we are bringing you continuing coverage of the post office scandal. we will now join nicky campbell for more coverage. welcome to bbc news and bbc two and 5live. that was an incredible 50 minutes on bbc breakfast. six people caught up in the biggest miscarriage in legal history. sad postmasters and the son

of somebody, all of whom had reputations dragged through the dirt and all of whom are good decent, innocent people who have been wronged and egregiously lied as well. i think it would be easy. you can uncle as well. —— i think it will be busy. i am hoping everyone is sitting down with headphones on, a hectic morning, all six of them appearing on bbc breakfast. we are going to janet's dinner, alison hall and others ——janet going to janet's dinner, alison hall and others —— janet skinner. going to janet's dinner, alison hall and others ——janet skinner. good morning to you. morning, morning, morning. i am morning to you. morning, morning, morning. iam not morning to you. morning, morning, morning. i am not sure who is who is not at the moment. i know some people are settling into the studio. you are all very welcome. we have

been overwhelmed by calls and texts over the last, well since the drama went out. scott darlington, i think you can hear me 0k. did you think this would happen? this itv drama comes on and kaboom! i this would happen? this itv drama comes on and kaboom!— comes on and kaboom! i watch the drama and — comes on and kaboom! i watch the drama and thought _ comes on and kaboom! i watch the drama and thought it _ comes on and kaboom! i watch the drama and thought it was - comes on and kaboom! i watch the drama and thought it was good - comes on and kaboom! i watch the drama and thought it was good in i drama and thought it was good in everything but not for one minute did i think there would be a tsunami of interest like this. it did i think there would be a tsunami of interest like this.— of interest like this. it was good, so powerful- _ of interest like this. it was good, so powerful. what _ of interest like this. it was good, so powerful. what was _ of interest like this. it was good, so powerful. what was it - of interest like this. it was good, so powerful. what was it like - of interest like this. it was good, so powerful. what was it like for| so powerful. what was it like for you watching? it so powerful. what was it like for you watching?— so powerful. what was it like for ou watchin. ? ., , , ., ., , you watching? it was strange. i was at those meetings. _ you watching? it was strange. i was at those meetings. it _ you watching? it was strange. i was at those meetings. it was _ you watching? it was strange. i was at those meetings. it was funny - at those meetings. it was funny watching it from the outside in, almost. it was strange seeing it all played out again as a drama and knowing i was actually involved at the time with everybody else here. pretty interesting.—

pretty interesting. pretty interesting! _ pretty interesting. pretty interesting! sally, - pretty interesting. pretty interesting! sally, what. pretty interesting. prettyj interesting! sally, what a pretty interesting. pretty - interesting! sally, what a crazy week it has been. your lives have been insane in recent years. this week of weeks what has it been like for you? it week of weeks what has it been like for ou? ., , , week of weeks what has it been like for ou? , ., ., , for you? it has been quite tortuous in a lot of ways. _ for you? it has been quite tortuous in a lot of ways. the _ for you? it has been quite tortuous in a lot of ways. the programme i for you? it has been quite tortuous| in a lot of ways. the programme on itv did _ in a lot of ways. the programme on itv did bring — in a lot of ways. the programme on itv did bring back dreadful memories. you know, you are back in your rat— memories. you know, you are back in your rat cage, — memories. you know, you are back in your rat cage, which is what i used to call_ your rat cage, which is what i used to call my— your rat cage, which is what i used to call my post office. this week things— to call my post office. this week things are — to call my post office. this week things are moving. i am to call my post office. this week things are moving. lam now to call my post office. this week things are moving. i am now trying to look_ things are moving. i am now trying to look on— things are moving. i am now trying to look on the positive side. i'm hoping — to look on the positive side. i'm hoping beyond hope that somewhere people _ hoping beyond hope that somewhere people in_ hoping beyond hope that somewhere people in power, somebody will do the right— people in power, somebody will do the right thing and actually come up with a _ the right thing and actually come up with a solution for us all. we are all as_ with a solution for us all. we are all as one — with a solution for us all. we are all as one it— with a solution for us all. we are all as one. it has been great from today's— all as one. it has been great from today's point of view to meet others in the _ today's point of view to meet others in the same — today's point of view to meet others in the same position, some far worse than me _ in the same position, some far worse than me we — in the same position, some far worse than me. we are here to help each

other~ _ than me. we are here to help each other. ., ., , , than me. we are here to help each other. . ., , , ., . other. that has been one thing which has come through. _ other. that has been one thing which has come through. so _ other. that has been one thing which has come through. so many - other. that has been one thing which has come through. so many people l other. that has been one thing which i has come through. so many people and a sense of solidarity. you are altogether, fighting back and winning. there was news this morning as well, was a? news this morning that it as well, was a? news this morning thatitis as well, was a? news this morning that it is close, imminent some kind of way through this is imminent. we heard from the man responsible for the post office. what was your reaction to that?— the post office. what was your reaction to that? quite a few times this has gone _ reaction to that? quite a few times this has gone on. _ reaction to that? quite a few times this has gone on. when _ reaction to that? quite a few times this has gone on. when we - reaction to that? quite a few times this has gone on. when we think. reaction to that? quite a few times | this has gone on. when we think we are getting somewhere, the rug has been pulled out. it is hard to have the confident it will be exactly the right thing. it will never be in a better position than it is now. hopefully, this surely will be the time when it goes sally is therewith and alison as well. can i ask you, alison, having a criminal record,

and 120 hours of community service that you were threatened with prosecution for theft and ended up admitting to a lesser charge of... we all know the story. what is happening and you were advised to be for a lesser charge and being sent to prison. what was it like doing community service knowing you had done nothing wrong? i got community service knowing you had done nothing wrong?— done nothing wrong? i got sent for community — done nothing wrong? i got sent for community service _ done nothing wrong? i got sent for community service in _ done nothing wrong? i got sent for community service in a _ done nothing wrong? i got sent for community service in a charity - done nothing wrong? i got sent for. community service in a charity shop, which was only three miles from my home. from my house and that. i didn't know what i was going to do. you just don't get that. it is not your decision what you have today. i had to go to a charity shop and work. being so close to my house, i was thinking, someone is going to come in and see me, what am i going

to say to them? so when i did the people, i would just say, i am going to the toilet or i am just going two trying to find something to do. i did have to tell people. i used to say, i am did have to tell people. i used to say, iam helping did have to tell people. i used to say, i am helping a friend out. it was awful. it was so close to home. i knew people who would see me and ask questions. i i knew people who would see me and ask questions-— ask questions. i cannot imagine that turmoil inside, _ ask questions. i cannot imagine that turmoil inside, when _ ask questions. i cannot imagine that turmoil inside, when you _ ask questions. i cannot imagine that turmoil inside, when you are - ask questions. i cannot imagine that turmoil inside, when you are going i turmoil inside, when you are going through something like that, doing something like that and thinking, i should not be here. what about the reaction from you from people locally? reaction from you from people locall ? ~ ., ., locally? we were not in the media when it happened _ locally? we were not in the media when it happened to _ locally? we were not in the media when it happened to me. - locally? we were not in the media when it happened to me. we - locally? we were not in the mediaj when it happened to me. we were locally? we were not in the media - when it happened to me. we were not inany— when it happened to me. we were not in any newspapers, thank god! me and

my partner, _ in any newspapers, thank god! me and my partner, richard, we did keep it quite _ my partner, richard, we did keep it quite under— my partner, richard, we did keep it quite under wraps, to be honest, to ourselves — quite under wraps, to be honest, to ourselves. we would tell close family. — ourselves. we would tell close family, close family and friends. that— family, close family and friends. that i_ family, close family and friends. that i could not talk about it. i 'ust that i could not talk about it. i just switched off. i didn't know what _ just switched off. i didn't know what to — just switched off. i didn't know what to say, what to do. was anybody else like that, — what to say, what to do. was anybody else like that, just _ what to say, what to do. was anybody else like that, just turning _ what to say, what to do. was anybody else like that, just turning it - what to say, what to do. was anybody else like that, just turning it off - else like that, just turning it off in your mind and dealing with it that way? we in your mind and dealing with it that wa ? ~ ., in your mind and dealing with it that wa ? . ., ., ., , ., that way? we were all told, lots of us were told _ that way? we were all told, lots of us were told at _ that way? we were all told, lots of us were told at the _ that way? we were all told, lots of us were told at the time _ that way? we were all told, lots of us were told at the time we - that way? we were all told, lots of us were told at the time we were l that way? we were all told, lots of l us were told at the time we were the only ones this was happening to. it is not something two when you end up pleading guilty in court to something you know you haven't done great you defend yourself against it. not something you shout from the rooftops you have pleaded guilty. you try to keep away from as many people as you can. you try to keep away from as many people as you can-— people as you can. what was it like for ou people as you can. what was it like for you watching — people as you can. what was it like for you watching the _ people as you can. what was it like for you watching the drama? -

people as you can. what was it like | for you watching the drama? really hard. i rot for you watching the drama? really hard. i got through _ for you watching the drama? really hard. i got through it. _ for you watching the drama? really hard. i got through it. what - for you watching the drama? really hard. i got through it. what was - for you watching the drama? really hard. i got through it. what was so | hard. i got through it. what was so good about the drama, the public behind us, really managed to get across the human side. the personal cost to us all and how the post office has behaved towards us for the last 15 years. pare office has behaved towards us for the last 15 years.— office has behaved towards us for the last 15 years. are you serious? are ou the last 15 years. are you serious? are you angry? — the last 15 years. are you serious? are you angry? are _ the last 15 years. are you serious? are you angry? are you _ the last 15 years. are you serious? are you angry? are you absolutelyj are you angry? are you absolutely livid? , ., ., ., livid? inside. i have learned over the ears livid? inside. i have learned over the years to _ livid? inside. i have learned over the years to try _ livid? inside. i have learned over the years to try to _ livid? inside. i have learned over the years to try to keep - livid? inside. i have learned over the years to try to keep a - livid? inside. i have learned over the years to try to keep a calm . the years to try to keep a calm keel the years to try to keep a calm keel. if i stayed there angry for the last decade, it would have sought of overwhelmed us. i would sa the sought of overwhelmed us. i would say the same- _ sought of overwhelmed us. i would say the same- l— sought of overwhelmed us. i would say the same. i am _ sought of overwhelmed us. i would say the same. i am so _ sought of overwhelmed us. i would say the same. i am so used - sought of overwhelmed us. i would say the same. i am so used to - sought of overwhelmed us. i would say the same. i am so used to this| say the same. i am so used to this anxiety— say the same. i am so used to this anxiety of— say the same. i am so used to this anxiety of the whole situation, it is almost — anxiety of the whole situation, it is almost like a way of life. you have _ is almost like a way of life. you have to — is almost like a way of life. you have to keep your anger under control— have to keep your anger under control otherwise it destroys you in the end _ control otherwise it destroys you in the end it — control otherwise it destroys you in the end. it has been an anxious time for so _ the end. it has been an anxious time for so long —

the end. it has been an anxious time for so long i— the end. it has been an anxious time for so long-— for so long. i think he was making me angry. — for so long. i think he was making me angry. really _ for so long. i think he was making me angry, really angry. _ for so long. i think he was making me angry, really angry. i - for so long. i think he was making me angry, really angry. ithink- for so long. i think he was making me angry, really angry. i think it i me angry, really angry. i think it is because — me angry, really angry. i think it is because you _ me angry, really angry. i think it is because you hear— me angry, really angry. i think it is because you hear the - me angry, really angry. i think it is because you hear the same i me angry, really angry. i think it - is because you hear the same stories from the _ is because you hear the same stories from the government _ is because you hear the same stories from the government in— is because you hear the same stories from the government in regards- is because you hear the same stories from the government in regards to l from the government in regards to this and _ from the government in regards to this and now— from the government in regards to this and now they— from the government in regards to this and now they are _ from the government in regards to this and now they are moving - this and now they are moving forward _ this and now they are moving forward they— this and now they are moving forward. they could - this and now they are moving forward. they could have - this and now they are moving. forward. they could have moved forward — forward. they could have moved forward years _ forward. they could have moved forward years ago. _ forward. they could have moved forward years ago. they- forward. they could have moved forward years ago. they have i forward. they could have moved - forward years ago. they have known about _ forward years ago. they have known about this _ forward years ago. they have known about this for — forward years ago. they have known about this for years _ forward years ago. they have known about this for years and _ forward years ago. they have known about this for years and years. - forward years ago. they have known about this for years and years. it - about this for years and years. it has literally— about this for years and years. it has literally taken _ about this for years and years. it has literally taken a _ about this for years and years. it has literally taken a drama - about this for years and years. it has literally taken a drama and i has literally taken a drama and social— has literally taken a drama and social media. _ has literally taken a drama and social media. i— has literally taken a drama and social media. i think— has literally taken a drama and social media. i think social- has literally taken a drama and . social media. i think social media, it has— social media. i think social media, it has absolutely— social media. i think social media, it has absolutely made _ social media. i think social media, it has absolutely made it - social media. i think social media, it has absolutely made it viral. - it has absolutely made it viral. people — it has absolutely made it viral. people can _ it has absolutely made it viral. people can watch _ it has absolutely made it viral. people can watch it _ it has absolutely made it viral. people can watch it in - it has absolutely made it viral. people can watch it in all- it has absolutely made it viral. - people can watch it in all different ways now — people can watch it in all different ways now we _ people can watch it in all different ways now. we actually— people can watch it in all different ways now. we actually do - people can watch it in all different ways now. we actually do get - people can watch it in all different ways now. we actually do get an i ways now. we actually do get an insight into— ways now. we actually do get an insight into it _ ways now. we actually do get an insight into it. it— ways now. we actually do get an insight into it. it is— ways now. we actually do get an insight into it. it isjust - ways now. we actually do get an insight into it. it isjust pen- insight into it. it isjust pen pushing _ insight into it. it isjust pen pushing all— insight into it. it isjust pen pushing all the _ insight into it. it isjust pen pushing all the time, - insight into it. it isjust pen pushing all the time, the l insight into it. it isjust pen. pushing all the time, the the insight into it. it isjust pen- pushing all the time, the the post office _ pushing all the time, the the post office will— pushing all the time, the the post office will delay— pushing all the time, the the post office will delay mecca _ pushing all the time, the the post office will delay mecca were - pushing all the time, the the postj office will delay mecca were made pushing all the time, the the post i office will delay mecca were made to wear back— office will delay mecca were made to wear back in— office will delay mecca were made to wear back in 2012 _ office will delay mecca were made to wear back in 2012 that _ office will delay mecca were made to wear back in 2012 that convictions i wear back in 2012 that convictions were _ wear back in 2012 that convictions were unsafe — wear back in 2012 that convictions were unsafe and _ wear back in 2012 that convictions were unsafe and they— wear back in 2012 that convictions were unsafe and they should - wear back in 2012 that convictions were unsafe and they should noti wear back in 2012 that convictions l were unsafe and they should not be prosecuting — were unsafe and they should not be prosecuting people _ were unsafe and they should not be prosecuting people. -- _ were unsafe and they should not be prosecuting people.— prosecuting people. -- were made aware. i prosecuting people. -- were made

aware- i saw _ prosecuting people. -- were made aware. i saw you _ prosecuting people. -- were made aware. i saw you on _ prosecuting people. -- were made aware. i saw you on the _ prosecuting people. -- were made aware. i saw you on the telly - prosecuting people. -- were made aware. i saw you on the telly early| aware. i saw you on the telly early on and i aware. i saw you on the telly early on and i know— aware. i saw you on the telly early on and i know how _ aware. i saw you on the telly early on and i know how difficult - aware. i saw you on the telly early on and i know how difficult it - aware. i saw you on the telly early on and i know how difficult it is - on and i know how difficult it is for you to talk about your time in prison. if you feel strong enough to do that, please do, and if you do is not a problem. it focuses so much on the desperate nature of this and at a scandal of it. are you 0k to do that? just to give me a broad brush of what it it was like.— of what it it was like. certain arts i of what it it was like. certain parts i do — of what it it was like. certain parts i do not _ of what it it was like. certain parts i do not like _ of what it it was like. certain parts i do not like to - of what it it was like. certain parts i do not like to talk- of what it it was like. certain i parts i do not like to talk about. itjust— parts i do not like to talk about. it just chris _ parts i do not like to talk about. itjust chris advise parts i do not like to talk about. it just chris advise you. but going to prison — it just chris advise you. but going to prison wasjust... i hadn't stolen — to prison wasjust... i hadn't stolen anything. —— chris advise you _ stolen anything. —— chris advise you i_ stolen anything. —— chris advise you i was — stolen anything. —— chris advise you. i was advised two they offered a plea _ you. i was advised two they offered a plea bargain, they were drop that that if— a plea bargain, they were drop that that if i_ a plea bargain, they were drop that that if i would plead guilty to false — that if i would plead guilty to false accounting, which would prevent — false accounting, which would prevent me from going to prison. it is only— prevent me from going to prison. it is only back— prevent me from going to prison. it is only back in 2020i actually found

out they— is only back in 2020i actually found out they had actually reattached the theft to _ out they had actually reattached the theft to my charge on the day i was convicted — theft to my charge on the day i was convicted. the tears when they also stuck _ convicted. the tears when they also stuck a _ convicted. the tears when they also stuck a confiscation order on me. i let my— stuck a confiscation order on me. i let my two — stuck a confiscation order on me. i let my two teenage kids at home. what _ let my two teenage kids at home. what probably hurts the most is, i was supposed to be there to protect them _ was supposed to be there to protect them i_ was supposed to be there to protect them iwas— was supposed to be there to protect them. i was taken away from them. yes _ them. i was taken away from them. yes as— them. i was taken away from them. yes as an — them. i was taken away from them. yes. as an organisation, they are absolutely wicked. there is no excuse for what they have done. for you and others, there is no excuse. i think the drama, i think the drama. — i think the drama, i think the drama. to— i think the drama, i think the drama, to be honest, it'sjust the tip of— drama, to be honest, it'sjust the tip of the — drama, to be honest, it'sjust the tip of the iceberg. there is so much more _ tip of the iceberg. there is so much more to— tip of the iceberg. there is so much more to this — tip of the iceberg. there is so much more to this story and so much more that has— more to this story and so much more that has happened. it isjust, honestly, _ that has happened. it isjust, honestly, the amount of things that have happened isjust... it shouldn't— have happened isjust... it shouldn't be seen in this country. i

meanr _ shouldn't be seen in this country. i mean. it— shouldn't be seen in this country. i mean. it is— shouldn't be seen in this country. i mean, it is like was said earlier, you cannot — mean, it is like was said earlier, you cannotjudge somebodyjust by a drama _ you cannotjudge somebodyjust by a drama and — you cannotjudge somebodyjust by a drama. and take a prosecution. i was judged _ drama. and take a prosecution. i was judged straightaway. as soon as my office _ judged straightaway. as soon as my office was— judged straightaway. as soon as my office was audited, i was judged straightaway. i was then prosecuted. so why— straightaway. i was then prosecuted. so why does it apply for us? loads of calls. so why does it apply for us? loads of calls- good _ so why does it apply for us? loads of calls. good morning _ so why does it apply for us? loads of calls. good morning to - so why does it apply for us? loads of calls. good morning to all - so why does it apply for us? loads of calls. good morning to all of. of calls. good morning to all of you. i know how strongly you will feel about this. i am going to ask you all for a quick comment, just to touch base with our sub—postmaster this morning. touch base with our sub-postmaster this morning-— touch base with our sub-postmaster this morning. what would you like to sa ? this morning. what would you like to say? excuse — this morning. what would you like to say? excuse me. _ this morning. what would you like to say? excuse me. first _ this morning. what would you like to say? excuse me. first of— this morning. what would you like to say? excuse me. first of all, - this morning. what would you like to say? excuse me. first of all, i - say? excuse me. first of all, i would like to applaud the strength and resilience. quite honestly, i don't think any of us can really, really understand completely what

they had been through. and to say this he missed miscarriage of justice, it isjust this he missed miscarriage of justice, it is just an understatement. i think they should know they have complete support from the british public and people should be held to account for what they had done. senior positions in the post office, mps, ijust cannot say done. senior positions in the post office, mps, i just cannot say that strongly enough really. mr; office, mps, ijust cannot say that strongly enough really.— strongly enough really. my heart roes out strongly enough really. my heart goes out to _ strongly enough really. my heart goes out to you _ strongly enough really. my heart goes out to you all. _ strongly enough really. my heart goes out to you all. thank- strongly enough really. my heart goes out to you all. thank you. i | goes out to you all. thank you. i know that you guys, it would be good for you to hear how much support, love and solidarity there is for you. rachel, thanks for being there. have your say, as they say. good morning- — have your say, as they say. good morning- i _ have your say, as they say. good morning. i was _ have your say, as they say. good morning. i wasjust _ have your say, as they say. good morning. i wasjust watching - have your say, as they say. (limp. morning. i wasjust watching bbc news as well. probably what half the country is feeling at the moment is to say, well done for your strength, resilience and courage. for me it

goes to show what one person stepping forward and a change they can make and the changes they can bring. well done. there is a seam of humanity running through this. this story about human nature. it was removed from control and manage to sense and response. belie. removed from control and manage to sense and response.— removed from control and manage to sense and response. viv. what would ou like to sense and response. viv. what would you like to say _ sense and response. viv. what would you like to say to _ sense and response. viv. what would you like to say to our— sense and response. viv. what would you like to say to our guests? - sense and response. viv. what would you like to say to our guests? how i you like to say to our guests? how sor i you like to say to our guests? how sorry i am — you like to say to our guests? how sorry i am not _ you like to say to our guests? how sorry i am not happened in the first place _ sorry i am not happened in the first place how— sorry i am not happened in the first place. how it was allowed to happen and these _ place. how it was allowed to happen and these people have suffered and their families have suffered. it is a massive, — their families have suffered. it is a massive, massive rattle when things— a massive, massive rattle when things like _ a massive, massive rattle when things like this happen and they feel so— things like this happen and they feel so badly let down, i am sure. thank— feel so badly let down, i am sure. thank you — feel so badly let down, i am sure. thank you very much. heartbreaking

for them. carol, _ thank you very much. heartbreaking for them. carol, you _ thank you very much. heartbreaking for them. carol, you have _ thank you very much. heartbreaking for them. carol, you have a - thank you very much. heartbreaking for them. carol, you have a bit - thank you very much. heartbreaking for them. carol, you have a bit of. thank you very much. heartbreaking for them. carol, you have a bit of a i for them. carol, you have a bit of a question- — for them. carol, you have a bit of a question- i— for them. carol, you have a bit of a question- i am _ for them. carol, you have a bit of a question. i am a _ for them. carol, you have a bit of a question. i am a bit _ for them. carol, you have a bit of a question. i am a bit concerned, - for them. carol, you have a bit of a question. i am a bit concerned, we| question. i am a bit concerned, we all suffered — question. i am a bit concerned, we all suffered hard _ question. i am a bit concerned, we all suffered hard times _ question. i am a bit concerned, we all suffered hard times and - question. i am a bit concerned, we all suffered hard times and i - question. i am a bit concerned, we all suffered hard times and i was i all suffered hard times and i was wondering in some of the cases, they have actually put up quite a lot of their savings to avoid going to prison. have they actually received any of their savings back? h0. prison. have they actually received any of their savings back? ha. 0f any of their savings back? no, of course not- _ any of their savings back? no, of course not. no, _ any of their savings back? no, of course not. no, no. _ any of their savings back? no, of course not. no, no. nothing. - any of their savings back? no, 0f| course not. no, no. nothing. that will be a no _ course not. no, no. nothing. that will be a no then. _ course not. no, no. nothing. that will be a no then. who _ course not. no, no. nothing. that will be a no then. who was - course not. no, no. nothing. that will be a no then. who was the i course not. no, no. nothing. that. will be a no then. who was the first person to say no? i had an immediate know. was that you? i person to say no? i had an immediate know. was that you?— person to say no? i had an immediate know. was that you? i had a £41o,000 shortfall. i know. was that you? i had a £44,000 shortfall. i didn't — know. was that you? i had a £44,000 shortfall. i didn't pay _ know. was that you? i had a £44,000 shortfall. i didn't pay that _ know. was that you? i had a £44,000 shortfall. i didn't pay that back. - shortfall. i didn't pay that back. prior to that, i had a £1700 shortfall they just prior to that, i had a £1700 shortfall theyjust took prior to that, i had a £1700 shortfall they just took out of prior to that, i had a £1700 shortfall theyjust took out of my remuneration with no evidence. i

rang the helpline to find out what the hell was going on. they took it out of my remuneration. i didn't take back the shortfall but a lot of people did and they did not receive anything back. it appears to have ended up in the coffers of the post office. ~ ., , ., , ended up in the coffers of the post office-_ when - ended up in the coffers of the post office._ when my i office. went to profits. when my shortfall was _ office. went to profits. when my shortfall was discovered - office. went to profits. when my shortfall was discovered i - office. went to profits. when my shortfall was discovered i was i office. went to profits. when my i shortfall was discovered i was told i shortfall was discovered i was told i had _ shortfall was discovered i was told i had to— shortfall was discovered i was told i had to pare — shortfall was discovered i was told i had to pare back— shortfall was discovered i was told i had to pare back else _ shortfall was discovered i was told i had to pare back else i— shortfall was discovered i was told i had to pare back else i would - shortfall was discovered i was told i had to pare back else i would bel i had to pare back else i would be facing _ i had to pare back else i would be facing a _ i had to pare back else i would be facing a charge _ i had to pare back else i would be facing a charge of— i had to pare back else i would be facing a charge of theft. - i had to pare back else i would be facing a charge of theft. i- i had to pare back else i would be facing a charge of theft. i used i facing a charge of theft. i used my savings. _ facing a charge of theft. i used my savings. sold _ facing a charge of theft. i used my savings. sold my— facing a charge of theft. i used my savings, sold my car, _ facing a charge of theft. i used my savings, sold my car, borrowed i facing a charge of theft. i used my. savings, sold my car, borrowed from my parents— savings, sold my car, borrowed from my parents and — savings, sold my car, borrowed from my parents and we _ savings, sold my car, borrowed from my parents and we have _ savings, sold my car, borrowed from my parents and we have never - savings, sold my car, borrowed from my parents and we have never had i my parents and we have never had that money— my parents and we have never had that money back. _ my parents and we have never had that money back. i— my parents and we have never had that money back.— that money back. i was not prosecuted. _ that money back. i was not prosecuted. we _ that money back. i was not prosecuted. we lost. - that money back. i was not prosecuted. we lost. every that money back. i was not - prosecuted. we lost. every month that money back. i was not _ prosecuted. we lost. every month he would put in the stuff the computer says you owe out of the shop tell. it came out of credit cards and family. i was not prosecuted but they have had money out of us all. i did not pay the shortfall but i was ordered _ did not pay the shortfall but i was ordered to — did not pay the shortfall but i was ordered to pay £1000 compensation.

they worked out that is what i would have left _ they worked out that is what i would have left out of my house. i lost my house _ have left out of my house. i lost my house and _ have left out of my house. i lost my house and then found out in october 2007. _ house and then found out in october 2007, the _ house and then found out in october 2007, the following year they had been _ 2007, the following year they had been issuing letters to be addressed gradually— been issuing letters to be addressed gradually house i lost, and they ended _ gradually house i lost, and they ended up— gradually house i lost, and they ended up with a warrant out for my arrest _ ended up with a warrant out for my arrest i_ ended up with a warrant out for my arrest i had— ended up with a warrant out for my arrest. i had to go into sheffield crown— arrest. i had to go into sheffield crown court in 2008, where i was arrested — crown court in 2008, where i was arrested and stuck in sales for a day and — arrested and stuck in sales for a day and told i was looking at five years _ day and told i was looking at five years for— day and told i was looking at five years for not paying the compensation.- years for not paying the compensation. years for not paying the com rensation. , ., ,., years for not paying the com-ensation. , ., , compensation. they are some bags, aren't they? — compensation. they are some bags, aren't they? what _ compensation. they are some bags, aren't they? what is _ compensation. they are some bags, aren't they? what is your _ compensation. they are some bags, aren't they? what is your reaction? | aren't they? what is your reaction? i think the post _ aren't they? what is your reaction? i think the post office _ aren't they? what is your reaction? i think the post office minister- i think the post office minister ought to reimburse them with the money they have actually... they stole from these people. same as everybody thinks the same. yes. janet, as we said earlier on, i will

not go into it because i know how painful it is, you went to prison. you'll conviction was overturned in april 2021. you'll conviction was overturned in a-ril2021. ~ ., you'll conviction was overturned in a-ril2021. ., ., ., april 2021. what was that moment like? it april 2021. what was that moment like? it was _ april 2021. what was that moment like? it was surreal. _ april 2021. what was that moment like? it was surreal. i _ april 2021. what was that moment like? it was surreal. i always - april 2021. what was that moment like? it was surreal. i always said, j like? it was surreal. i always said, if i could have bottle that day and kept it, it was like having a baby. honestly. it was the most amazing... it was social distancing as well, believe it or not. all social distancing. i was having to listen to the actual court hearing in court five. i was in one of the feeder courts. i had to keep refreshing nick wallace's tweets. i actually ended up having to read it of nicolas's tweets because it was not clear enough. it nicolas's tweets because it was not clear enough-— nicolas's tweets because it was not clear enough. it caught my breath. i still cannot — clear enough. it caught my breath. i still cannot get _ clear enough. it caught my breath. i still cannot get over _ clear enough. it caught my breath. i still cannot get over the _ clear enough. it caught my breath. i still cannot get over the fact - clear enough. it caught my breath. i still cannot get over the fact he - still cannot get over the fact he had a warrant out for your arrest. i

went to sheffield crown court. they were sending the letters to the house i had not lived in for nearly a year because of obviously losing myjob. it was only because a friend rang me and said, i had a job and a friend rang me and said, you have nonpayment of compensation order warrant. they told me they had been issuing these letters and i was not receiving them.— receiving them. karen from farnborough _ receiving them. karen from farnborough and _ receiving them. karen from farnborough and chris. - receiving them. karen from i farnborough and chris. thanks receiving them. karen from - farnborough and chris. thanks to everyone. please do take the opportunity. you can text us. we need them all. we have some pretty amazing people in the studio today. karen, a former postmistress. yes. karen, a former postmistress. yes, hello. karen, a former postmistress. yes, hello- what — karen, a former postmistress. yes, hello. what happened _ karen, a former postmistress. yes, hello. what happened to _ karen, a former postmistress. yes, hello. what happened to you? - karen, a former postmistress. yes, hello. what happened to you? i - karen, a former postmistress. yes, | hello. what happened to you? i was ridinr m hello. what happened to you? i was riding my post _ hello. what happened to you? i was riding my post office _ hello. what happened to you? i was riding my post office for _ hello. what happened to you? i was riding my post office for 20 - hello. what happened to you? i was

riding my post office for 20 years. l riding my post office for 20 years. in 2000, i had the horizon system put in. it kept being short putter after that i was audited and everything was fine. then i kept being short, my husband, we were in our 60s, he was 77 and taking a lump sum out of his pension pot. in the end he couldn't do it any more. so i was not brave like the other postmasters. i took a route where i hid it. i hid itand move postmasters. i took a route where i hid it. i hid it and move money around from the shop to the post office for about 18 months, two years. i can't tell you. i knew i was going to be audited. when they came out, ijust confessed. i asked my managers why would i keep being

short before i did all that? they said quick look at your staff! i have had most from the beginning. i knew it was not them. there was no one to help. i phoned up and nothing. ijust buried my head in the sand. i did not know whether i was coming or going and carried on. as soon as they came, i said, yes, i had done it. it never entered my headit had done it. it never entered my head it would be a computer. ifeel so stupid when i look at this debate and how —— at mr bates and how he worked it out. and how -- at mr bates and how he worked it out.— and how -- at mr bates and how he worked it out. what happened to you? i was worked it out. what happened to you? i was accused — worked it out. what happened to you? i was accused of _ worked it out. what happened to you? i was accused of theft _ worked it out. what happened to you? i was accused of theft and _ worked it out. what happened to you? i was accused of theft and i _ worked it out. what happened to you? i was accused of theft and i pleaded i i was accused of theft and i pleaded guilty at magistrates' court. i was sentenced for a year. you guilty at magistrates' court. i was sentenced for a year.— guilty at magistrates' court. i was sentenced for a year. you went to arison? i sentenced for a year. you went to prison? i went — sentenced for a year. you went to prison? i went to _ sentenced for a year. you went to prison? i went to prison _ sentenced for a year. you went to prison? i went to prison for - sentenced for a year. you went to prison? i went to prison for three | prison? i went to prison for three months. three _ prison? i went to prison for three months. three months _ prison? i went to prison for three months. three months with - prison? i went to prison for three months. three months with a -

prison? i went to prison for three j months. three months with a tag prison? i went to prison for three i months. three months with a tag as well. ~ ., ., . ~ months. three months with a tag as well-— actually. - months. three months with a tag as well._ actually, do| well. what was it like? actually, do ou know well. what was it like? actually, do you know what? — well. what was it like? actually, do you know what? it _ well. what was it like? actually, do you know what? it was _ well. what was it like? actually, do you know what? it was better - well. what was it like? actually, do you know what? it was better than | you know what? it was better than what i was going through two years before that. it was just... what i was going through two years before that. it wasjust... i just... i was all right. i didn't have anyone being nasty to me or anything. that is all i can say. what i did to my family, i will never... my grandson is eight, bullied at school. my daughter—in—law. but on the whole, my family stood by me and friends and people who came in my shop. they wrote to me when i was in prison, i had so many letters. i was lucky in that respect, they all supported me. i was not brave. i had such a lot of loyal customers, i should have done

whatjo did. pew; loyal customers, i should have done what jo did-— what jo did. any like person would have understood _ what jo did. any like person would have understood what _ what jo did. any like person would have understood what you - what jo did. any like person would have understood what you did. - what jo did. any like person would i have understood what you did. there but for the grace of whatever or whoever. karen, are you part of the campaign? whoever. karen, are you part of the cam-rain? ., . whoever. karen, are you part of the campaign?— whoever. karen, are you part of the cam-rain? ., , , ., ., campaign? no, i buried my head and i didn't want to — campaign? no, i buried my head and i didn't want to know _ campaign? no, i buried my head and i didn't want to know anything - campaign? no, i buried my head and i didn't want to know anything about. didn't want to know anything about it. this has been a nightmare for me all those coming up.— all those coming up. there is legal advice to help _ all those coming up. there is legal advice to help you _ all those coming up. there is legal advice to help you going _ all those coming up. there is legal advice to help you going forward i all those coming up. there is legal l advice to help you going forward and having _ advice to help you going forward and having your — advice to help you going forward and having your conviction overturned. you need — having your conviction overturned. you need to — having your conviction overturned. you need to. | having your conviction overturned. you need to— you need to. i haven't but i think! will now. would _ you need to. i haven't but i think! will now. would anyone _ you need to. i haven't but i think! will now. would anyone be - you need to. i haven't but i think! will now. would anyone be willing | you need to. i haven't but i think i l will now. would anyone be willing to s-eak will now. would anyone be willing to s . eak to will now. would anyone be willing to speakto karen _ will now. would anyone be willing to speak to karen after _ will now. would anyone be willing to speak to karen after the _ will now. would anyone be willing to. speak to karen after the programme? i would speak to her.— i would speak to her. thank you very much. i would speak to her. thank you very much- thank— i would speak to her. thank you very much. thank you _ i would speak to her. thank you very much. thank you very _ i would speak to her. thank you very much. thank you very much. - i would speak to her. thank you very much. thank you very much. you i i would speak to her. thank you very | much. thank you very much. you had done the bravest _ much. thank you very much. you had done the bravest thing _ much. thank you very much. you had done the bravest thing by _ much. thank you very much. you had done the bravest thing by coming - done the bravest thing by coming forward _ done the bravest thing by coming forward and speaking to us. you took

the words right _ forward and speaking to us. you took the words right out _ forward and speaking to us. you took the words right out of— forward and speaking to us. you took the words right out of my _ forward and speaking to us. you took the words right out of my mouth. - forward and speaking to us. you took the words right out of my mouth. i i the words right out of my mouth. i just felt that all of you, all of you postmistress mistresses are wonderful. i onlyjust watched it last night because i couldn't bring myself to watch it. i watched all of it last night. if it was not for you, people like me would not be saying this now. you have been so brave. ., ., ., , , , brave. you have made the first step, that is brave- — brave. you have made the first step, that is brave. come _ brave. you have made the first step, that is brave. come and _ brave. you have made the first step, that is brave. come and join - brave. you have made the first step, that is brave. come and join us. - that is brave. come and 'oin us. there — that is brave. come and 'oin us. there are some t that is brave. come and 'oin us. there are some good h that is brave. come and join us. there are some good lawyers i that is brave. come and join us. - there are some good lawyers helping us. there are some good lawyers helping us the _ there are some good lawyers helping us. the inquiry— there are some good lawyers helping us. the inquiry is— there are some good lawyers helping us. the inquiry is going _ there are some good lawyers helping us. the inquiry is going forward. - there are some good lawyers helping us. the inquiry is going forward. we. us. the inquiry is going forward. we need _ us. the inquiry is going forward. we need to— us. the inquiry is going forward. we need to do— us. the inquiry is going forward. we need to do it — us. the inquiry is going forward. we need to do it as— us. the inquiry is going forward. we need to do it as one. _ us. the inquiry is going forward. we need to do it as one.— us. the inquiry is going forward. we need to do it as one. thank you very much. need to do it as one. thank you very much- thank— need to do it as one. thank you very much. thank you _ need to do it as one. thank you very much. thank you for _ need to do it as one. thank you very much. thank you for listening - need to do it as one. thank you very much. thank you for listening to - need to do it as one. thank you very| much. thank you for listening to me. what was it like watching that? i watched with my wife and we were in floods. toby tick me off and said, this is coming up. we were in floods

of tears throughout the whole thing. what was it like for you? it of tears throughout the whole thing. what was it like for you?— what was it like for you? it was dreadful. that _ what was it like for you? it was dreadful. that is _ what was it like for you? it was dreadful. that is why _ what was it like for you? it was dreadful. that is why i - what was it like for you? it was dreadful. that is why i hadn't . dreadful. that is why i hadn't watched it. i knew. as it all started coming up again, there had been bits of it. i didn't want to go back. i couldn't go back. since then i have been thinking about everything that happened to me and happen to the family. i cannot stop thinking about it. that happened when i was watching it. it brought it all back. this morning when i woke up, i thought, i cannot carry on like this, i must do something about it. that is why... i knew you were having a programme. i salute ou and were having a programme. i salute you and we — were having a programme. i salute you and we all— were having a programme. i salute you and we all salute _ were having a programme. i salute you and we all salute you. - were having a programme. i salute you and we all salute you. thank . were having a programme. i salute i you and we all salute you. thank you very much. — you and we all salute you. thank you very much. thank— you and we all salute you. thank you very much, thank you. _ you and we all salute you. thank you very much, thank you. we _ you and we all salute you. thank you very much, thank you. we will- very much, thank you. we will orranise very much, thank you. we will organise a _ very much, thank you. we will organise a conversation. - very much, thank you. we will. organise a conversation. onwards very much, thank you. we will- organise a conversation. onwards and organise a conversation. 0nwards and upwards, karen. this shows there are

so many other people out there as well. ~ ., . so many other people out there as well. . ., , ., ., , well. what is one of the highlights of this. it well. what is one of the highlights of this- it is _ well. what is one of the highlights of this. it is giving _ well. what is one of the highlights of this. it is giving people - well. what is one of the highlights of this. it is giving people who - well. what is one of the highlightsj of this. it is giving people who had hidden away the opportunity to come forward and seekjustice. this is a massive, massive thing what karen has just done. massive, massive thing what karen hasjust done. she has massive, massive thing what karen has just done. she has taken that step and gone live on air with her story. now she needs to take their next step. we story. now she needs to take their next ste -. ~ ., story. now she needs to take their next ste -. . . , story. now she needs to take their next ste ., . . , ., story. now she needs to take their next step. . . , ., ., ., next step. we have chris and carol. what would — next step. we have chris and carol. what would you _ next step. we have chris and carol. what would you like _ next step. we have chris and carol. what would you like to _ next step. we have chris and carol. what would you like to say, - next step. we have chris and carol. what would you like to say, chris? | what would you like to say, chris? good morning. thank you. ten was actually— good morning. thank you. ten was actually the — good morning. thank you. ten was actually the sub—postmaster where i lived and _ actually the sub—postmaster where i lived and where my dad lived as well _ lived and where my dad lived as well -- — lived and where my dad lived as well. —— tim. ifollowed, being aware — well. —— tim. ifollowed, being aware of— well. —— tim. ifollowed, being aware of the story for quite a long time _ aware of the story for quite a long time now— aware of the story for quite a long time. now to actually hear his voice is being _ time. now to actually hear his voice is being listened to a little bit more — is being listened to a little bit more and broadcast on radio, it is

amazing _ more and broadcast on radio, it is amazing really. the impact on him is profound, _ amazing really. the impact on him is profound, clearly. also my dad did hear him. — profound, clearly. also my dad did hear him, that shop has closed but it was— hear him, that shop has closed but it was a _ hear him, that shop has closed but it was a critical local resource which — it was a critical local resource which has _ it was a critical local resource which has now gone. the post offices responsible _ which has now gone. the post offices responsible for notjust which has now gone. the post offices responsible for not just the massive impact _ responsible for not just the massive impact on _ responsible for not just the massive impact on all the postmasters but the communities they have also said. does your— the communities they have also said. does your dad... did he talk about him as well? does your dad. .. did he talk about him as well?— does your dad... did he talk about him as well? , ~ ., ., , him as well? yes. i know he mentions at the time — him as well? yes. i know he mentions at the time when _ him as well? yes. i know he mentions at the time when it _ him as well? yes. i know he mentions at the time when it closed _ him as well? yes. i know he mentions at the time when it closed down. - him as well? yes. i know he mentions at the time when it closed down. he l at the time when it closed down. he is to get— at the time when it closed down. he is to get the — at the time when it closed down. he is to get the papers, notjust using it as a _ is to get the papers, notjust using it as a post— is to get the papers, notjust using it as a post office. he is not very mobile _ it as a post office. he is not very mobile these days. to have a local shop _ mobile these days. to have a local shop rather— mobile these days. to have a local shop rather than going into town was massive _ shop rather than going into town was massive as — shop rather than going into town was massive. as more and more of this has come _ massive. as more and more of this has come to— massive. as more and more of this has come to light, sympathies are massively— has come to light, sympathies are massively extended, it is heartbreaking, really. thank you.

the prosecution _ heartbreaking, really. thank you. the prosecution happened - heartbreaking, really. thank you. the prosecution happened in - heartbreaking, really. thank you. i the prosecution happened in 2010. both me and my family tried for a number of years out of a sense of responsibility to the community to keep the shop going. 0nce responsibility to the community to keep the shop going. once i was removed from the full—time post office welcome it eventually became unsustainable. we felt massive guilt in having to close the village shop. it was not feasible any more. allison, we haven't heard from you for a while, listening allison, we haven't heard from you for a while, listening to allison, we haven't heard from you for a while, listening to karen allison, we haven't heard from you for a while, listening to karen come forward was amazing, wasn't it? it was. like i said, there are still people — was. like i said, there are still people out— was. like i said, there are still people out there that have not come forward _ people out there that have not come forward. now our solicitor said last week— forward. now our solicitor said last week after— forward. now our solicitor said last week after the drama, they had a big response _ week after the drama, they had a big response of— week after the drama, they had a big response of people overnight getting in touch, _ response of people overnight getting in touch, so this is kind of what the next — in touch, so this is kind of what the next step needs to be, to get in touch— the next step needs to be, to get in

touch with _ the next step needs to be, to get in touch with a — the next step needs to be, to get in touch with a solicitor to