you, heartbreaking, really. thank you. the prosecution _ heartbreaking, really. thank you. the prosecution happened - heartbreaking, really. thank you. the prosecution happened in - heartbreaking, really. thank you. | the prosecution happened in 2010. both me and my family tried for a number of years out of a sense of responsibility to the community to keep the shop going. once i was removed from the full—time post office welcome it eventually became unsustainable. we felt massive guilt in having to close the village shop. it was not feasible any more. allison, we haven't heard from you for a while, listening allison, we haven't heard from you for a while, listening to allison, we haven't heard from you for a while, listening to karen allison, we haven't heard from you for a while, listening to karen come forward was amazing, wasn't it? it was. like i said, there are still people — was. like i said, there are still pe0ple out— was. like i said, there are still people out there that have not come forward _ people out there that have not come forward. now our solicitor said last week_ forward. now our solicitor said last week after— forward. now our solicitor said last week after the drama, they had a big response _ week after the drama, they had a big response of— week after the drama, they had a big response of people overnight getting in touch, _ response of people overnight getting in touch, so this is kind of what the next — in touch, so this is kind of what the next step needs to be, to get in touch— the next step needs to be, to get in

touch with _ the next step needs to be, to get in touch with a — the next step needs to be, to get in touch with a solicitor to help on the journey, touch with a solicitor to help on thejourney, it touch with a solicitor to help on the journey, it shouldn't have to do it oh— the journey, it shouldn't have to do it on her— the journey, it shouldn't have to do it on her own. we have been in this all me _ it on her own. we have been in this all me personally 13 years. i didn't want _ all me personally 13 years. i didn't want to— all me personally 13 years. i didn't want to say— all me personally 13 years. i didn't want to say anything when it happened to me because i couldn't, i 'ust happened to me because i couldn't, i just switched off. but she does need to take _ just switched off. but she does need to take that next step. she's done a good _ to take that next step. she's done a good thing — to take that next step. she's done a good thing this morning by coming on air and _ good thing this morning by coming on air and doing good thing this morning by coming on airand doing it good thing this morning by coming on air and doing it but she needs to do the next _ air and doing it but she needs to do the next step in getting legal advice — the next step in getting legal advice now for definite. it the next step in getting legal advice now for definite. it was one ofthe advice now for definite. it was one of the most _ advice now for definite. it was one of the most reprehensible - advice now for definite. it was one of the most reprehensible things l advice now for definite. it was one i of the most reprehensible things the post office did too many of us at the time, insisting that we were on our own. i didn't find out about justice for sub—postmaster is four years and only by chance. they made as think it was something there was only a problem or something we had

caused. ~ . . , only a problem or something we had caused. . . . , . . only a problem or something we had caused. ~ . . , . . ., caused. what was at the heart of that, caused. what was at the heart of that. tim? _ caused. what was at the heart of that, tim? was _ caused. what was at the heart of that, tim? was it— caused. what was at the heart of that, tim? was it a _ caused. what was at the heart of that, tim? was it a case - caused. what was at the heart of that, tim? was it a case of- caused. what was at the heart of - that, tim? was it a case of computer says no? it is a standard written line? or was says no? it is a standard written line? orwas it says no? it is a standard written line? or was it something more sinister? ~ . , , ., sinister? when i was investigated i didn't have an _ sinister? when i was investigated i didn't have an idea _ sinister? when i was investigated i didn't have an idea that _ sinister? when i was investigated i didn't have an idea that the - didn't have an idea that the computer could have been a problem. i knew i hadn't done anything wrong and when i put it to the investigators that i don't think i've done anything wrong, there could be a problem, they instantly shut me down with, well, you are the only one who had these issues. so it stop you asking more questions about it. you then started to look into respectively and thinking well it must be my mistake on my problem. i knew this would happen. peter in stamford, sub—postmaster, hi, peter. good morning. you stamford, sub-postmaster, hi, peter. good morning-— good morning. you had to borrow a lot of money _ good morning. you had to borrow a lot of money from _ good morning. you had to borrow a lot of money from a _ good morning. you had to borrow a lot of money from a customer. - good morning. you had to borrow a| lot of money from a customer. what happened? i lot of money from a customer. what ha--ened? , . ,, happened? i did indeed. obviously because i was _ happened? i did indeed. obviously because i was aware _ happened? i did indeed. obviously because i was aware of— happened? i did indeed. obviously because i was aware of issues - happened? i did indeed. obviously because i was aware of issues with other— because i was aware of issues with other postmasters_ because i was aware of issues with other postmasters that _ because i was aware of issues with other postmasters that they- because i was aware of issues with other postmasters that they were i other postmasters that they were having, _ other postmasters that they were having, i— other postmasters that they were having, iwas— other postmasters that they were having, i was afraid _ other postmasters that they were having, i was afraid to _ other postmasters that they were having, i was afraid to report - having, i was afraid to report anything _ having, i was afraid to report anything to— having, i was afraid to report anything to the _ having, i was afraid to report anything to the post - having, i was afraid to report anything to the post office . having, i was afraid to reportl anything to the post office on shortages _

anything to the post office on shortages and _ anything to the post office on shortages and before - anything to the post office on shortages and before i- anything to the post office on shortages and before i left. anything to the post office on| shortages and before i left my office — shortages and before i left my office i— shortages and before i left my office i had _ shortages and before i left my office i had to _ shortages and before i left my office i had to borrow- shortages and before i left my| office i had to borrow £19,000 shortages and before i left my. office i had to borrow £19,000 to make _ office i had to borrow £19,000 to make good — office i had to borrow £19,000 to make good false _ office i had to borrow £19,000 to make good false accounting. - office i had to borrow £19,000 to make good false accounting. i- office i had to borrow £19,000 tol make good false accounting. i was fearful— make good false accounting. i was fearful that — make good false accounting. i was fearful that at— make good false accounting. i was fearful that at any— make good false accounting. i was fearful that at any time _ make good false accounting. i was fearful that at any time i— make good false accounting. i was fearful that at any time i could - fearful that at any time i could have _ fearful that at any time i could have treen— fearful that at any time i could have been found _ fearful that at any time i could have been found out _ fearful that at any time i could have been found out by- fearful that at any time i could have been found out by the i fearful that at any time i could l have been found out by the post office _ have been found out by the post office and — have been found out by the post office and could _ have been found out by the post office and could have _ have been found out by the post office and could have been- office and could have been investigated _ office and could have been investigated and _ office and could have beenl investigated and potentially office and could have been- investigated and potentially sent to prison _ investigated and potentially sent to prison and — investigated and potentially sent to prison and as _ investigated and potentially sent to prison. and as a _ investigated and potentially sent to prison. and as a sitting _ investigated and potentially sent to prison. and as a sitting magistratel prison. and as a sitting magistrate at the _ prison. and as a sitting magistrate at the time, — prison. and as a sitting magistrate at the time, i_ prison. and as a sitting magistrate at the time, i was _ prison. and as a sitting magistrate at the time, i was fearful - prison. and as a sitting magistrate at the time, i was fearful every - prison. and as a sitting magistratel at the time, i was fearful every day of an— at the time, i was fearful every day of an audit — at the time, i was fearful every day ofah audit tiff_ at the time, i was fearful every day of an audit-— at the time, i was fearful every day of an audit._ on - at the time, i was fearful every day of an audit._ on my - at the time, i was fearful every day of an audit._ on my final| of an audit. of course. on my final check before _ of an audit. of course. on my final check before i _ of an audit. of course. on my final check before i left _ of an audit. of course. on my final check before i left my _ of an audit. of course. on my final check before i left my post, - of an audit. of course. on my final check before i left my post, i - of an audit. of course. on my final check before i left my post, i had i check before i left my post, i had to borrow — check before i left my post, i had to borrow from _ check before i left my post, i had to borrow from a _ check before i left my post, i had to borrow from a customer- check before i left my post, i had i to borrow from a customer £19,000 and then— to borrow from a customer £19,000 and then repay— to borrow from a customer £19,000 and then repay her— to borrow from a customer £19,000 and then repay her back— to borrow from a customer £19,000 and then repay her back because - and then repay her back because obviously— and then repay her back because obviously i — and then repay her back because obviously i could _ and then repay her back because obviously i could have _ and then repay her back because obviously i could have been - and then repay her back because obviously i could have been on . and then repay her back because i obviously i could have been on that final audit — obviously i could have been on that final audit charged _ obviously i could have been on that final audit charged with _ obviously i could have been on that final audit charged with theft. - obviously i could have been on that final audit charged with theft. evenj final audit charged with theft. even though— final audit charged with theft. even though at— final audit charged with theft. even though at the — final audit charged with theft. even though at the time _ final audit charged with theft. even though at the time i— final audit charged with theft. even though at the time i hadn't - final audit charged with theft. even| though at the time i hadn't realised obviously— though at the time i hadn't realised obviously it — though at the time i hadn't realised obviously it was _ though at the time i hadn't realised obviously it was the _ though at the time i hadn't realised obviously it was the horizon - though at the time i hadn't realisedj obviously it was the horizon system that was— obviously it was the horizon system that was fautty~ _ obviously it was the horizon system that was faulty. now _ obviously it was the horizon system that was faulty. now i _ obviously it was the horizon system that was faulty. now i do _ obviously it was the horizon system that was faulty. now i do i'm - that was faulty. now i do i'm putting — that was faulty. now i do i'm putting irr— that was faulty. now i do i'm putting in a _ that was faulty. now i do i'm putting in a claim _ that was faulty. now i do i'm putting in a claim and - that was faulty. now i do i'm putting in a claim and i- that was faulty. now i do i'm putting in a claim and i think| that was faulty. now i do i'm - putting in a claim and i think there will he _ putting in a claim and i think there will be thousands _ putting in a claim and i think there will be thousands of— putting in a claim and i think there i will be thousands of sub—postmasters like me _ will be thousands of sub—postmasters like me who _ will be thousands of sub—postmasters like me who have _ will be thousands of sub—postmasters like me who have now—

will be thousands of sub—postmasters like me who have now left _ will be thousands of sub—postmasters like me who have now left office - like me who have now left office havihg _ like me who have now left office having borrowed, _ like me who have now left office having borrowed, begged - like me who have now left office| having borrowed, begged money like me who have now left office - having borrowed, begged money from people _ having borrowed, begged money from people and _ having borrowed, begged money from people and to — having borrowed, begged money from people and to find _ having borrowed, begged money from people and to find out _ having borrowed, begged money from people and to find out that _ having borrowed, begged money from people and to find out that we - people and to find out that we didn't— people and to find out that we didn't have _ people and to find out that we didn't have to— people and to find out that we didn't have to put— people and to find out that we didn't have to put it _ people and to find out that we didn't have to put it back- people and to find out that we didn't have to put it back in. l people and to find out that we i didn't have to put it back in. will there _ didn't have to put it back in. will there he — didn't have to put it back in. will there be compensation- didn't have to put it back in. will there be compensation to - there be compensation to those thousands— there be compensation to those thousands that _ there be compensation to those thousands that haven't - there be compensation to those thousands that haven't claimed | thousands that haven't claimed should — thousands that haven't claimed should now— thousands that haven't claimed should now claim? _ thousands that haven't claimed should now claim?— thousands that haven't claimed should now claim? that's what the historical shortfall _ should now claim? that's what the historical shortfall is _ should now claim? that's what the historical shortfall is for, _ should now claim? that's what the historical shortfall is for, i - historical shortfall is for, i believe. �* , ., historical shortfall is for, i believe. , ., . historical shortfall is for, i believe. �* , ., . . . ., believe. i'm putting on a claim now but lots of — believe. i'm putting on a claim now but lots of sub-postmasters - believe. i'm putting on a claim now but lots of sub-postmasters won't | but lots of sub—postmasters won't know _ but lots of sub—postmasters won't know that — but lots of sub-postmasters won't know that. �* , . know that. i'm sure that the government _ know that. i'm sure that the government closed - know that. i'm sure that the government closed the - know that. i'm sure that the - government closed the application for that. so that's probably something that they can look at reopening on the deadline. i’m reopening on the deadline. i'm -auttin in reopening on the deadline. i'm putting in a _ reopening on the deadline. i'm putting in a claim for compensation, and and _ putting in a claim for compensation, and and lreing— putting in a claim for compensation, and and being advised _ putting in a claim for compensation, and and being advised to _ putting in a claim for compensation, and and being advised to do - putting in a claim for compensation, and and being advised to do that, i putting in a claim for compensation, and and being advised to do that, to register— and and being advised to do that, to register it. _ and and being advised to do that, to register it. and _ and and being advised to do that, to register it, and open _ and and being advised to do that, to register it, and open up _ and and being advised to do that, to register it, and open up debate - and and being advised to do that, to register it, and open up debate for. register it, and open up debate for all of— register it, and open up debate for all of those — register it, and open up debate for all of those thousands _ register it, and open up debate for all of those thousands of— all of those thousands of postmasters _ all of those thousands of postmasters that - all of those thousands of postmasters that put - all of those thousands of. postmasters that put money all of those thousands of- postmasters that put money in all of those thousands of— postmasters that put money in that need not _ postmasters that put money in that need not have — postmasters that put money in that need not have happened. _ postmasters that put money in that need not have happened. iir'it�*hen- postmasters that put money in that need not have happened. when they o-ened need not have happened. when they 0 ened it, need not have happened. when they opened it. that _ need not have happened. when they opened it, that historical _ need not have happened. when they opened it, that historical shortfall i opened it, that historical shortfall scheme, i think they were only

expecting a few people to actually go in for it. they had over 2500 applications. go in for it. they had over 2500 applications— go in for it. they had over 2500 a- lications. . ., . , ., applications. and how many more will now a- -l ? applications. and how many more will now apply? exactly- — applications. and how many more will now apply? exactly. that's _ applications. and how many more will now apply? exactly. that's the - now apply? exactly. that's the question. _ now apply? exactly. that's the question, absolutely _ now apply? exactly. that's the question, absolutely the - now apply? exactly. that's the - question, absolutely the question. thank you very much, peter. the brave of anyone to talk about this, it really is. it brave of anyone to talk about this, it reall is. . , ., brave of anyone to talk about this, it really is— it really is. it has to be an open debate now _ it really is. it has to be an open debate now for _ it really is. it has to be an open debate now for everybody. - it really is. it has to be an open debate now for everybody. the | debate now for everybody. the government— debate now for everybody. the government have _ debate now for everybody. the government have to _ debate now for everybody. the government have to listen - debate now for everybody. the government have to listen to l government have to listen to everybody _ government have to listen to everybody now _ government have to listen to everybody now and _ government have to listen to everybody now and look - government have to listen to everybody now and look into| government have to listen to . everybody now and look into the failings~ — everybody now and look into the failings~ trite _ everybody now and look into the failinus. ~ . ~ ,, , everybody now and look into the failinus. . . ., everybody now and look into the failinus. . ., , failings. we have pmqs today, rishi sunak expected _ failings. we have pmqs today, rishi sunak expected to _ failings. we have pmqs today, rishi sunak expected to make _ failings. we have pmqs today, rishi sunak expected to make a - failings. we have pmqs today, rishi l sunak expected to make a statement. sandy, hello. sunak expected to make a statement. sandy. hello-— sunak expected to make a statement. sandy. hello-_ ex - sandy, hello. good morning. ex branch secretary _ sandy, hello. good morning. ex branch secretary of _ sandy, hello. good morning. ex branch secretary of the - sandy, hello. good morning. exj branch secretary of the national federation of subpostmasters, what would you like to say? i am federation of subpostmasters, what would you like to say?— would you like to say? i am and it u sets would you like to say? i am and it upsets me _ would you like to say? i am and it upsets me so _ would you like to say? i am and it upsets me so much _ would you like to say? i am and it upsets me so much that - would you like to say? i am and it upsets me so much that the - would you like to say? i am and it - upsets me so much that the executive of the federation took the view that when a postmaster was suspended, they were guilty. i always did my very best in my branch to work with the sub—master with the post office

and in most of the cases i handle we actually got them off. but the federation were complicit in this. they always told sub—postmasters that the system was robust and when problems did come up the federation did not investigate anything. they didn't get involved. and that annoys me because they were taking the subscriptions off us and telling us they were representing us and they were not. i was a very proud member of the federation but not now. they really let everybody down as well. they did. really let everybody down as well. the did. ., y really let everybody down as well. i they did-_ how they did. tell me how they did. how the let they did. tell me how they did. how they let everybody — they did. tell me how they did. how they let everybody down. _ they did. tell me how they did. how they let everybody down. because i they let everybody down. because many of the branch secretaries, we were not trained, we were just volunteers to arrange meetings and things. but if somebody ran into trouble they were supposed to phone the branch secretary who was

supposed to help them. and in some areas the branch secretary used to say to the sub—postmasters we can't help you and put the phone down on them. no so—called union should act like that. in my branch, if someone ran into trouble i went head's like that. in my branch, if someone ran into trouble i went heads on that they were innocent until proved guilty. i was quite successful. but that isn't the point. the point was the executive of the federation were the executive of the federation were the ones who were complicit with the post office in saying it is robust, no one else is having a problem. let me aet no one else is having a problem. let me get scott in with a line on what you are saying. me get scott in with a line on what you are saying-— you are saying. when i first had a roblem, you are saying. when i first had a problem. i _ you are saying. when i first had a problem, i didn't _ you are saying. when i first had a problem, i didn't know _ you are saying. when i first had a problem, i didn't know it - you are saying. when i first had a problem, i didn't know it was - you are saying. when i first had a problem, i didn't know it was the | problem, ididn't know it was the computer— problem, i didn't know it was the computer system. i had doubts. my first discrepancy was through stamps and i first discrepancy was through stamps and i knew— first discrepancy was through stamps and i knew there was something not quite _ and i knew there was something not quite right— and i knew there was something not quite right but i rang george thompson who was the general secretary — thompson who was the general secretary. i told thompson who was the general secretary. itold him i'd thompson who was the general secretary. i told him i'd got problems and i think it might be something to do with the system in

the first— something to do with the system in the first thing he said to me was, have _ the first thing he said to me was, have you — the first thing he said to me was, have you got gambling debts? that's what he _ have you got gambling debts? that's what he actually said to me. that was the attitude _ what he actually said to me. that was the attitude they _ what he actually said to me. “inst was the attitude they took. that was the problem. i was the attitude they took. that was the problem-— was the attitude they took. that was the problem-_ li the problem. i knew straightaway. i handled one — the problem. i knew straightaway. i handled one or— the problem. i knew straightaway. i handled one or two _ the problem. i knew straightaway. i handled one or two cases _ the problem. i knew straightaway. i handled one or two cases when - the problem. i knew straightaway. i handled one or two cases when i i the problem. i knew straightaway. ij handled one or two cases when i try to get advice from the executive officer in my area and his attitude was that the phone down on them, we can't help. that's not what a union is supposed to do. the federation had the union status removed anyway a few years later. they are just really nowjust a few years later. they are just really now just a a few years later. they are just really nowjust a retail trading group. the post office pay them so they are not independent.— group. the post office pay them so they are not independent. thank you ve much they are not independent. thank you very much indeed _ they are not independent. thank you very much indeed for— they are not independent. thank you very much indeed for all— they are not independent. thank you very much indeed for all of— they are not independent. thank you very much indeed for all of that. - they are not independent. thank you very much indeed for all of that. it i very much indeed for all of that. it is important we had your voice on today. we have not got george or the union's voice on to defend themselves.— union's voice on to defend themselves. , . , , themselves. they are being very cuiet. themselves. they are being very quiet- that _ themselves. they are being very quiet- that is — themselves. they are being very quiet. that is my _ themselves. they are being very quiet. that is my job _ themselves. they are being very quiet. that is my job to - themselves. they are being very quiet. that is my job to say - themselves. they are being veryj quiet. that is my job to say that. quiet. that is my 'ob to say that. sarah in quiet. that is my job to say that. sarah in northamptonshire, - quiet. that is my job to say that. | sarah in northamptonshire, good morning, sarah.— morning, sarah. good morning, everyone. _ morning, sarah. good morning, everyone. how _ morning, sarah. good morning, everyone, how you _ morning, sarah. good morning,

everyone, how you doing? - morning, sarah. good morning, everyone, how you doing? hi! l morning, sarah. good morning, - everyone, how you doing? hi! what happened to your mum? 20 - everyone, how you doing? hi! what happened to your mum? 20 years i everyone, how you doing? hi! what i happened to your mum? 20 years ago she was arrested _ happened to your mum? 20 years ago she was arrested and _ happened to your mum? 20 years ago she was arrested and she _ happened to your mum? 20 years ago she was arrested and she was - happened to your mum? 20 years ago she was arrested and she was given i she was arrested and she was given 21 months in prison when we were all young. we don't even know where to start, when you are 15, i6 and going through that, they kept us out of it a bit so you don't understand the gravity of it all but it's only until we started getting older, my daughter is 15 now, and it occurred to me that if she went through what i did, it is so bizarre. my mum wants to wait to come forward because we are still waiting to have her conviction overturned. we are in the middle of going for compensation now. untilshe the middle of going for compensation now. until she is ready to tell her story i don't want to say, it is her story i don't want to say, it is her story to say but i can only come

forward in the way to save those who have children, the next generation. what was it like for you? give me a portrait of what it was like. the earthat portrait of what it was like. the year that l _ portrait of what it was like. the year that i was _ portrait of what it was like. he year that i was going to portrait of what it was like. ii9: year that i was going to university, i had to give it up and stay behind and look after my brothers and sisters. i have an older brother and two younger sisters. we were parentless, raising ourselves, four children. mt; parentless, raising ourselves, four children. y :, parentless, raising ourselves, four children. g . , parentless, raising ourselves, four children. y :, , :, , ' children. my daughter, she was 17 and she always — children. my daughter, she was 17 and she always says _ children. my daughter, she was 17 and she always says to _ children. my daughter, she was 17 and she always says to me, - children. my daughter, she was 17 and she always says to me, she i children. my daughter, she was 17 l and she always says to me, she had to step _ and she always says to me, she had to step up _ and she always says to me, she had to step up when i was in prison. | to step up when i was in prison. i can to step up when i was in prison. can 100% to step up when i was in prison. i can 100% get that. it is traumatic, still suffer trauma now from it because i felt i was never given a childhood, never allowed to do my degree that i worked for and my gcses degree that i worked for and my gcses might put in a lot of work for that, being able to get given a decent offer of a degree at 15. that

is a massive achievement. and then to be like, you have to give it up because your brothers and sisters and family need you, i would give it again, i'd give up my degree for my family. people don't realise, not only the people who have gone through it, my mum and yourselves but the children as well. the collateral — but the children as well. the collateral damage, - but the children as well. the collateral damage, how can you compensate for the collateral damage? compensate for the collateral damaue? : . . :, , damage? and what about the thousands of --eole damage? and what about the thousands of people affected. _ damage? and what about the thousands of people affected, no _ damage? and what about the thousands of people affected, no one _ damage? and what about the thousands of people affected, no one cares - of people affected, no one cares about the next generation that has to deal with it, that's something that has never really been mentioned, only in that documentary. that people who did have children, like everyone else, they never got the help. are they entitled to compensation, what about those who were bullied at school and lost education and were beaten up? no one cares. : , cares. and the lost lives. let me ask ou cares. and the lost lives. let me ask you all _ cares. and the lost lives. let me ask you all a _ cares. and the lost lives. let me ask you all a question. _ cares. and the lost lives. let me ask you all a question. she - cares. and the lost lives. let me ask you all a question. she is - cares. and the lost lives. let me i ask you all a question. she is going to give up her gong, going, going, gone. to give up her gong, going, going, one. , , , :, to give up her gong, going, going, one. ,, , , :, , ., gone. she 'umped before she was

ushed. gone. she jumped before she was pushed- she _ gone. she jumped before she was pushed. she would _ gone. she jumped before she was pushed. she would never - gone. she jumped before she was pushed. she would never have - gone. she jumped before she was i pushed. she would never have done that if she hadn't been outed. she was forced out because she was outed. she has had 20 years, whenever she was in, 20 years to pull theirfinger whenever she was in, 20 years to pull their finger out whenever she was in, 20 years to pull theirfinger out and whenever she was in, 20 years to pull their finger out and they haven't done it until this came out. they would have happily lined their pockets until the end of time before this would have come out. she pockets until the end of time before this would have come out.— this would have come out. she has been forced _ this would have come out. she has been forced into _ this would have come out. she has been forced into a _ this would have come out. she has been forced into a corner - this would have come out. she has been forced into a corner to - this would have come out. she has been forced into a corner to turn i been forced into a corner to turn down _ been forced into a corner to turn down and — been forced into a corner to turn down and return the cbe. they were going _ down and return the cbe. they were going to _ down and return the cbe. they were going to take it from her anyway so she knew— going to take it from her anyway so she knew she had to do something. to save face _ she knew she had to do something. to save face she — she knew she had to do something. to save face she has handed it back. what _ save face she has handed it back. what about the bonus money that she got, 2 million in bonuses? thea;r got, 2 million in bonuses? they should at least _ got, 2 million in bonuses? they should at least freeze _ got, 2 million in bonuses? they should at least freeze all- got, 2 million in bonuses? they should at least freeze all assets and even — should at least freeze all assets and even pensions. when we were suspended — and even pensions. when we were suspended we were suspended on the spot, suspended we were suspended on the spot. the _ suspended we were suspended on the spot, the day you had your audit and the day— spot, the day you had your audit and the day they— spot, the day you had your audit and the day they removed the keys from you you _ the day they removed the keys from you you are — the day they removed the keys from you you are suspended without pay and pending investigation. sol think— and pending investigation. sol think what they need to do is

suspend _ think what they need to do is suspend all pensions that have been, that are _ suspend all pensions that have been, that are being paid to ex po ceos. it is that are being paid to ex po ceos. it is not _ that are being paid to ex po ceos. it is notiust— that are being paid to ex po ceos. it is notjust paula vennells, when it is notjust paula vennells, when i was _ it is notjust paula vennells, when i was sent— it is notjust paula vennells, when i was sent to prison it was under the royal— i was sent to prison it was under the royal mail and it was in 2007. just when — the royal mail and it was in 2007. just when you said they took away the keys, that sent a chill through me, that image, that moment. was it an actual moment?— an actual moment? what they do, i had requested _ an actual moment? what they do, i had requested the _ an actual moment? what they do, i had requested the audit, _ an actual moment? what they do, i had requested the audit, they - an actual moment? what they do, i j had requested the audit, they came to the _ had requested the audit, they came to the office, remove the keys from me straightaway and i had to follow them _ me straightaway and i had to follow them in. _ me straightaway and i had to follow them in. so — me straightaway and i had to follow them in, so they led the way in. when _ them in, so they led the way in. when i — them in, so they led the way in. when i was _ them in, so they led the way in. when i was leaving i had a bag and it was— when i was leaving i had a bag and it was about the size of a pencil case _ it was about the size of a pencil case and — it was about the size of a pencil case and they searched me before i left and _ case and they searched me before i left and they said anything you take out of— left and they said anything you take out of here — left and they said anything you take out of here would be classed as theft _ out of here would be classed as theft so — out of here would be classed as theft so you aren't allowed to take anything _ theft so you aren't allowed to take anything at all and you are pushed

out. anything at all and you are pushed out |_ anything at all and you are pushed out. :, :, anything at all and you are pushed out. . . , ., anything at all and you are pushed out. . . , :, ~ out. i have an interesting one. when i had my first — out. i have an interesting one. when i had my first audit _ out. i have an interesting one. when i had my first audit when _ out. i have an interesting one. when i had my first audit when i _ out. i have an interesting one. when i had my first audit when i joined - i had my first audit when ijoined the post office, the auditor could not, he had to audit the previous postmistress and then they said they are off and i said i'm going to be had to count the money. blah blah blah. when the auditor came back a month and a half later i got caught for the previous postmistress's errors. she'd gone but they said you pay this. that was in 2002. so the whole company is, in my opinion, completely and utterly corrupt. amanda in warrington. goodness me, what a response this morning from people who were intimately involved, and are intimately involved in all of this as well. amanda, what happened? we had a post office family business and i was a sub postmistress. mr; family business and i was a sub postmistress.— family business and i was a sub postmistress. my husband worked art-time, postmistress. my husband worked part-time. he _ postmistress. my husband worked part-time, he had _

postmistress. my husband worked part-time, he had a _ postmistress. my husband worked part-time, he had ajob_ postmistress. my husband worked part-time, he had a job at - part—time, he had a job at manchester airport. part—time, he had a job at manchesterairport. but part—time, he had a job at manchester airport. but i was the one who had the contract. the auditors came in at about eight o'clock in the morning and before they even counted the office i got suspended over the phone, i wasn't allowed in the office when they were doing the audit, they suspended me straightaway and said i wouldn't get the office back. that was 12 years ago. we both got prosecuted, me and my husband. we got told if we didn't plead guilty i was going to prison in manchester. so we pleaded guilty. we lost the family, we lost the house, we now live in a caravan. it's the same again, isn't it? same old story — it's the same again, isn't it? same old story in— it's the same again, isn't it? same old story. in so many people. this is helinu old story. in so many people. this is helping people _ old story. in so many people. this is helping people come forward. it is helping people come forward. it is a good — is helping people come forward. it is a good thing _ is helping people come forward. it is a good thing-— is a good thing. more of you, 'ust come forward fl is a good thing. more of you, 'ust come forward and i is a good thing. more of you, 'ust come forward and we * is a good thing. more of you, 'ust come forward and we can i is a good thing. more of you, just come forward and we can help . is a good thing. more of you, just come forward and we can help if. is a good thing. more of you, just i come forward and we can help if we can. come forward and we can help if we can if— come forward and we can help if we can if not. — come forward and we can help if we can. if not, we can help push you in that direction. i

can. if not, we can help push you in that direction.— can. if not, we can help push you in that direction. i mean, no, you have a lot of tv — that direction. i mean, no, you have a lot of tv production _ that direction. i mean, no, you have a lot of tv production companies, i a lot of tv production companies, you have — a lot of tv production companies, you have all— a lot of tv production companies, you have all of— a lot of tv production companies, you have all of the _ a lot of tv production companies, you have all of the radio - a lot of tv production companies, i you have all of the radio companies, they can _ you have all of the radio companies, they can seek— you have all of the radio companies, they can seek advice _ you have all of the radio companies, they can seek advice and _ you have all of the radio companies, they can seek advice and get - you have all of the radio companies, they can seek advice and get help i they can seek advice and get help from _ they can seek advice and get help from anywhere _ they can seek advice and get help from anywhere. this _ they can seek advice and get help from anywhere. this story- they can seek advice and get help from anywhere. this story is - they can seek advice and get help from anywhere. this story is justl from anywhere. this story is just getting _ from anywhere. this story is just getting bigger— from anywhere. this story is just getting bigger and _ from anywhere. this story is just getting bigger and bigger- from anywhere. this story is just getting biggerand biggerand. getting bigger and bigger and bigger — getting bigger and bigger and bigger and _ getting bigger and bigger and bigger. and don't— getting bigger and bigger and bigger. and don't think - getting bigger and bigger and| bigger. and don't think hiding getting biggerand biggerand- bigger. and don't think hiding away, you know. _ bigger. and don't think hiding away, you know. hiding _ bigger. and don't think hiding away, you know, hiding in— bigger. and don't think hiding away, you know, hiding in a _ bigger. and don't think hiding away, you know, hiding in a corner- bigger. and don't think hiding away, you know, hiding in a corner or- you know, hiding in a corner or being _ you know, hiding in a corner or being shamed _ you know, hiding in a corner or being shamed by— you know, hiding in a corner or being shamed by your- you know, hiding in a corner or- being shamed by your community, because _ being shamed by your community, because now— being shamed by your community, because now you _ being shamed by your community, because now you have _ being shamed by your community, because now you have a _ being shamed by your community, because now you have a voice - being shamed by your community, because now you have a voice and | being shamed by your community, - because now you have a voice and you can actually _ because now you have a voice and you can actually stand _ because now you have a voice and you can actually stand up _ because now you have a voice and you can actually stand up and _ because now you have a voice and you can actually stand up and say, - because now you have a voice and you can actually stand up and say, you - can actually stand up and say, you know _ can actually stand up and say, you know what. — can actually stand up and say, you know what. i— can actually stand up and say, you know what, i didn't _ can actually stand up and say, you know what, i didn't actually - can actually stand up and say, you know what, i didn't actually do - know what, i didn't actually do anything — know what, i didn't actually do anything wrong _ know what, i didn't actually do anything wrong-— know what, i didn't actually do anything wrong. know what, i didn't actually do an hinu wron.. , . �*, anything wrong. exactly. that's the hardest part- _ anything wrong. exactly. that's the hardest part. what _ anything wrong. exactly. that's the hardest part. what now, _ anything wrong. exactly. that's the hardest part. what now, amanda? | anything wrong. exactly. that's the i hardest part. what now, amanda? we have been working _ hardest part. what now, amanda? we have been working with _ hardest part. what now, amanda? we have been working with solicitors, - have been working with solicitors, we are not part of the group. we have been working with solicitors and they are sorting out things out. good. :, ~ and they are sorting out things out. good. . ,, i. :, good. thank you for getting in touch. dave _ good. thank you for getting in touch. dave in _ good. thank you for getting in touch. dave in nottingham, i good. thank you for getting in i touch. dave in nottingham, what good. thank you for getting in - touch. dave in nottingham, what is your story?— touch. dave in nottingham, what is your story?_ hi- i touch. dave in nottingham, what is your story?_ hi- your story? morning, nicky. hi. i was involved _ your story? morning, nicky. hi. i was involved with _ your story? morning, nicky. hi. i was involved with the _ your story? morning, nicky. hi. i was involved with the post - your story? morning, nicky. hi. i was involved with the post office j was involved with the post office for 20 years as a sub—postmaster, i

owned two offices and then ran a further 20 as a relief both for the private sector and for the post office. in 2001! private sector and for the post office. in 2001 i got a large discrepancy which i refused to do anything about. it got to the stage where i was threatened with the sack and prosecution etc. so i said, if you sack me i will sue you for wrongful dismissal because the system is faulty. eventually it was agreed to have a meeting in my office with the post office counter�*s area manager, the post office counter�*s training manager, two representatives from fujitsu and while we were stood there the horizon system did a transaction on its own. ~ :, its own. wow! laughter - laughter absolutely brilliant. of course, everything went haywire after that. but that was 2001? did you say that was 2001? i

but that was 2001? did you say that was 2001? , :, but that was 2001? did you say that was 2001? ,. . but that was 2001? did you say that was 2001? . , :, , was 2001? i said that proves either our was 2001? i said that proves either your system _ was 2001? i said that proves either your system is _ was 2001? i said that proves either your system is faulty _ was 2001? i said that proves either your system is faulty or _ was 2001? i said that proves either your system is faulty or somebody | your system is faulty or somebody has remote access. 50 your system is faulty or somebody has remote access.— your system is faulty or somebody has remote access. so they agreed they would — has remote access. so they agreed they would sort _ has remote access. so they agreed they would sort it _ has remote access. so they agreed they would sort it out _ has remote access. so they agreed they would sort it out and - has remote access. so they agreed they would sort it out and i - has remote access. so they agreed they would sort it out and i didn't l they would sort it out and i didn't hear any more. the discrepancy mysteriously disappeared two days later so somebody did have remote access to my account and i never heard any more. but shortly after that i had a meeting with geoff hoon, then ministry of defence in tony blair's government, and he very kindly advised me and one or two others who were at the meeting that it would be a good idea if you got out of the post office. so i did, i sold it and became a relief postmaster. but prior to that in 1999 when the first horizon systems were going in i was in the second group, my office was, and i noticed that the equipment had got

"refurbished" on it and i said to the engineer, why is this refurbished? it is supposed to be brand spanking new? he said the first lot was so faulty that we have had to use yours to replace there's to get the system going and you have the refurbished bits. lenient to get the system going and you have the refurbished bits.— the refurbished bits. went around the refurbished bits. went around the whole circle! _ the refurbished bits. went around the whole circle! so _ the refurbished bits. went around the whole circle! so the _ the refurbished bits. went around the whole circle! so the idea - the refurbished bits. went around the whole circle! so the idea that| the whole circle! so the idea that the whole circle! so the idea that the post — the whole circle! so the idea that the post office and fujitsu didn't know _ the post office and fujitsu didn't know anything about it is a complete and utter _ know anything about it is a complete and utter lie. know anything about it is a complete and utter lie-— and utter lie. basically it is perverting _ and utter lie. basically it is perverting the _ and utter lie. basically it is perverting the course - and utter lie. basically it is perverting the course of. and utter lie. basically it is - perverting the course ofjustice. anyone want to comment on that from dave's all? :, , dave's all? please give the information _ dave's all? please give the information to _ dave's all? please give the information to the - dave's all? please give the information to the public i dave's all? please give the - information to the public inquiry and the — information to the public inquiry and the lawyers _ information to the public inquiry and the lawyers doing _ information to the public inquiry and the lawyers doing that - information to the public inquiry and the lawyers doing that and i information to the public inquiry - and the lawyers doing that and they can all— and the lawyers doing that and they can all fujitsu — and the lawyers doing that and they can all fujitsu back— and the lawyers doing that and they can all fujitsu back again _ and the lawyers doing that and they can all fujitsu back again to - and the lawyers doing that and they can all fujitsu back again to ask - can all fujitsu back again to ask them _ can all fujitsu back again to ask them questions. _ can all fujitsu back again to ask them questions. i— can all fujitsu back again to ask them questions.— can all fujitsu back again to ask them questions. i have sent it back to n them questions. i have sent it back to wyn williams — them questions. i have sent it back to wyn williams and _ them questions. i have sent it back to wyn williams and i'm _ them questions. i have sent it back to wyn williams and i'm sure - them questions. i have sent it back to wyn williams and i'm sure he'lll to wyn williams and i'm sure he'll work away for the next couple of you is. a, work away for the next couple of you is. : . . , work away for the next couple of you is.�* . work away for the next couple of you is. a valuable call, thank you. we have our panel — is. a valuable call, thank you. we have our panel of _ is. a valuable call, thank you. we have our panel of mps _ is. a valuable call, thank you. we have our panel of mps which - is. a valuable call, thank you. we have our panel of mps which willl have our panel of mps which will

always do on a wednesday coming up at ten o'clock. do you fancy asking them a question after ten o'clock if you don't have to rush off? fries. you don't have to rush off? yes, lease! you don't have to rush off? yes, please! we _ you don't have to rush off? yes, please! we can _ you don't have to rush off? yes, please! we can do _ you don't have to rush off? yes, please! we can do another - you don't have to rush off? yes, . please! we can do another however alon: with please! we can do another however along with the _ please! we can do another however along with the mps _ please! we can do another however along with the mps because - please! we can do another however along with the mps because i'm - please! we can do another however i along with the mps because i'm sure, we have a live demo and a conservative and labour coming up, so any of you would be very welcome at the top of the next hour to put a question to our mps on bbc radio 5 live —— we have a lib dems. i extend the invitation and ifeel live —— we have a lib dems. i extend the invitation and i feel it has been warmly accepted. who have we got? who have we not got?! goodness me! hannah in fleet, good morning. morning. me! hannah in fleet, good morning. morninu. me! hannah in fleet, good morning. mornin., :, me! hannah in fleet, good morning. morninu. :, :, :, i. morning. good morning, over to you. hi, i'm morning. good morning, over to you. hi. i'm the — morning. good morning, over to you. hi, i'm the daughter— morning. good morning, over to you. hi, i'm the daughter of— morning. good morning, over to you. hi, i'm the daughter of the _ hi, i'm the daughter of the postmaster and sub postmistress. i can feel my body shaking, you can probably hear it in my voice. don’t probably hear it in my voice. don't wor , probably hear it in my voice. don't worry. you — probably hear it in my voice. don't worry. you are _ probably hear it in my voice. don't worry, you are amongst _

probably hear it in my voice. don't worry, you are amongst friends, no doubt about that. i worry, you are amongst friends, no doubt about that.— doubt about that. i was 11-14 when my parents — doubt about that. i was 11-14 when my parents ran — doubt about that. i was 11-14 when my parents ran the _ doubt about that. i was 11-14 when my parents ran the post _ doubt about that. i was 11-14 when my parents ran the post office. i l my parents ran the post office. i guess i'm calling to speak to the impact on the families that was had. my impact on the families that was had. my parents essentially for three years were absent, get up in the morning, were behind the counter, go to bed at night and they were behind the counter. and seeing their health deteriorate over the course of three years. i will pause to make sure i can say what i want to. there is the impact on the postmasters but also as a young teenager going from a striving family with parents really accessible to having no access, the impact of that. and i guess in the conversations i've heard this morning, i've been watching for a while and really appreciated hearing the different stories. the words for me that are missing are abuse and trauma. one lady said on the interviews this morning about the

power of the post office and the power of the post office and the power that they imposed on postmasters around the accusations of fraud and having to pay monies etc and the long lasting trauma that that has created.— that has created. that's what they don't understand. _ that has created. that's what they don't understand. sorry, - that has created. that's what they don't understand. sorry, i- don't understand. sorry, i interrupted _ don't understand. sorry, i interrupted you _ don't understand. sorry, i interrupted you there. - don't understand. sorry, i interrupted you there. i i don't understand. sorry, i. interrupted you there. i said don't understand. sorry, i- interrupted you there. i said that's what they don't — interrupted you there. i said that's what they don't understand, - interrupted you there. i said that's what they don't understand, the i what they don't understand, the effects _ what they don't understand, the effects it — what they don't understand, the effects it has on the family it ricochets, it is like a domino effect, — ricochets, it is like a domino effect, just literally falls and goes — effect, just literally falls and goes right through the family. i have _ goes right through the family. i have a — goes right through the family. i have a granddaughter, three grandchildren, but the middle one hasiust, _ grandchildren, but the middle one hasjust, she is ten this grandchildren, but the middle one has just, she is ten this year, grandchildren, but the middle one hasjust, she is ten this year, and i hasjust, she is ten this year, and i did _ hasjust, she is ten this year, and i did an _ hasjust, she is ten this year, and i did an interview, i think it was on friday. — i did an interview, i think it was on friday, and i was looking after her on _ on friday, and i was looking after her on friday and she did the interview— her on friday and she did the interview with me and she said, grandma, — interview with me and she said, grandma, why are you on the tv? i had to— grandma, why are you on the tv? i had to tell— grandma, why are you on the tv? i had to tell her i had been to prison

and explained to her about the post office _ and explained to her about the post office. she's so funny sometimes, but she _ office. she's so funny sometimes, but she said, grandma, did you have to eat _ but she said, grandma, did you have to eat the _ but she said, grandma, did you have to eat the food while you were in prison? — to eat the food while you were in rison? :, :, , to eat the food while you were in rison? . ., .: . , to eat the food while you were in rison? . . , , prison? that was actually my next cuestion! prison? that was actually my next question! what _ prison? that was actually my next question! what about _ prison? that was actually my next question! what about your - prison? that was actually my next| question! what about your mother prison? that was actually my next - question! what about your mother and father? the effect on them as well? as a family this isn't something we have ever been able to talk about until the programme was released, so grateful for the itv dramatisation because at least it has brought the conversation up will stop as a family we managed five minutes of the tv show before my dad had to remove himself and go to bed. to not even be able to be exposed to a tv show i think gives some sense of the long lasting impact of this. it impacts the family more than you realise _ impacts the family more than you realise. how your parents have tried to protect _ realise. how your parents have tried to protect you in your teenage years is the _

to protect you in your teenage years is the same _ to protect you in your teenage years is the same way as i did with mine. ididn't— is the same way as i did with mine. i didn't really explain the severity of what _ i didn't really explain the severity of what was going on to my two because — of what was going on to my two because i— of what was going on to my two because i didn't want them to have to live _ because i didn't want them to have to live it— because i didn't want them to have to live it with me. it was hard enough — to live it with me. it was hard enough of— to live it with me. it was hard enough of me living it, even to the point _ enough of me living it, even to the point of. _ enough of me living it, even to the point of. the — enough of me living it, even to the point of, the day i was sent to prison, — point of, the day i was sent to prison, they still weren't aware of what _ prison, they still weren't aware of what was — prison, they still weren't aware of what was going on. we still as a family. — what was going on. we still as a family. i— what was going on. we still as a family, i cannot sit and speak about it with _ family, i cannot sit and speak about it with my— family, i cannot sit and speak about it with my kids now. i can sit and speak— it with my kids now. i can sit and speak about _ it with my kids now. i can sit and speak about it on tv and radio, i can't _ speak about it on tv and radio, i can't speak— speak about it on tv and radio, i can't speak about it with them because — can't speak about it with them because we just cry.— can't speak about it with them because we just cry. because we 'ust cry. hannah, that is such a kind — because we just cry. hannah, that is such a kind of _ because we just cry. hannah, that is such a kind of graphic, _ because we just cry. hannah, that is such a kind of graphic, emotional. such a kind of graphic, emotional image, the fact that your dad could only watch for five minutes. going ahead, what is the plan for you, for yourfamily? i ahead, what is the plan for you, for your family?— your family? i guess for me i hear the encouragement _ your family? i guess for me i hear the encouragement for _ your family? i guess for me i hear the encouragement for people - your family? i guess for me i hear the encouragement for people to | the encouragement for people to speak up and come forward, which is

wonderful and i want to do that in behalf of my family. my dad just can't and won't. i guess for me i look at the internet and where i can go with this and feel overwhelmed by the amount of options and roots i can go and who i could speak to. i find it difficult to navigate what happens next. flan find it difficult to navigate what happens next-— find it difficult to navigate what ha ens next. . :, :, ,, , , happens next. can one of you guys ma be happens next. can one of you guys may be speak _ happens next. can one of you guys may be speak to — happens next. can one of you guys may be speak to hannah _ happens next. can one of you guys may be speak to hannah later- happens next. can one of you guys may be speak to hannah later on? | happens next. can one of you guys| may be speak to hannah later on? i will happily do that. i have - may be speak to hannah later on? i will happily do that. i have to - may be speak to hannah later on? i will happily do that. i have to do - will happily do that. i have to do some statements _ will happily do that. i have to do some statements as _ will happily do that. i have to do some statements as well. - will happily do that. i have to do some statements as well. the i will happily do that. i have to do i some statements as well. the post office say we fully share the aims of the current public inquiries set “p of the current public inquiries set up to establish what went wrong in the past and the accountability for it. we are acutely aware of the human cost of the scandal and we are doing all we can to right the wrongs of the past as far as that is

possible. i have to do statements. both post office and government are committed to providing full and fair and final competition for those affected. today £138 million have been made available to postmasters, the majority of which have been paid and interim payments continue to be paid in other cases which have not yet been resolved. i have to leave it there. that's the statement. this is what we have to do in all fairness. this is from paula vennells as well. i have so far maintained my silence as i considered it inappropriate to comment publicly while the inquiry remains ongoing and before i have provided my oral evidence. i am, however, where the calls from sub—postmasters and others to return my cd. i have listened and i confirm i return my cd with immediate effect. i'm truly sorry for the devastation caused to the supposed masses and their families whose

lives were torn apart by being wrongly accused and wrongly prosecuted as a result of the horizon system. what i would say to you all, the time is 9.57, and we will do a bit with the politicians after ten o'clock on the radio, her cbe was for services to charity as well but i think in the main, services to the post office. i think a lot of right minded people would say, ten, what a disservice she has done.— disservice she has done. complete disservice- — disservice she has done. complete disservice- l— disservice she has done. complete disservice. i don't _ disservice she has done. complete disservice. i don't why _ disservice she has done. complete disservice. i don't why she - disservice she has done. complete | disservice. i don't why she accepted the award in the first place and i go again to the point, second sight told the post office they were prosecuting people unfairly and all of the prosecutions previously could have been unsafe back in 2012 and yet she still oversaw the organisation when it fought alan potts my case tooth and nail and

tried every kind of litigation trick in the book and basicallyjust ran is out of money when we were trying to fight forjustice is out of money when we were trying to fight for justice for everybody. let's get down on maybe after ten o'clock. we had so many calls and so many people who have been caught up in this whose families have been part of the collateral effect which has been so vividly and powerfully described as well by our guest this morning. you can still contact us. can i interrupt you? to me that most of the statement is absolutely and utterly meaningless. they have regurgitated the same rubbish for years and years. i don't believe a single word they have said in the statement. i want somebody to deal with the post office. lethal statement. i want somebody to deal with the post office.— with the post office. what does that mean? i want _ with the post office. what does that mean? i want them _ with the post office. what does that mean? i want them closed. - with the post office. what does that mean? i want them closed. i- with the post office. what does that mean? i want them closed. i want i with the post office. what does that i mean? i want them closed. i want the ceo and his — mean? i want them closed. i want the ceo and his entourage _ mean? i want them closed. i want the ceo and his entourage out _ mean? i want them closed. i want the ceo and his entourage out so - mean? i want them closed. i want the ceo and his entourage out so that - ceo and his entourage out so that that organisation can be rebuilt

from grass roots with good, honest, hard—working people which the postmasters are. get rid of the middle five, six, eight, ten tiers of hangers on. do middle five, six, eight, ten tiers of hangers om— middle five, six, eight, ten tiers of hangers on. do you think this is a watershed _ of hangers on. do you think this is a watershed moment? _ of hangers on. do you think this is a watershed moment? it - of hangers on. do you think this is a watershed moment? it is - of hangers on. do you think this is a watershed moment? it is an - a watershed moment? it is an organisation _ a watershed moment? it is an organisation that _ a watershed moment? it is an organisation that was - a watershed moment? it is an organisation that was split - a watershed moment? it is an organisation that was split up | a watershed moment? it is an i organisation that was split up by a watershed moment? it is an - organisation that was split up by ed daveyin organisation that was split up by ed davey in 2010 as part of a cost—cutting exercise, they got rid of the distribution side, royal mail will stop as postmasters we got done and lost customers because royal mail stole them. but that is by the by, it isn't fit for purpose any more. ,. y by, it isn't fit for purpose any more. ,,. , . by, it isn't fit for purpose any more. , . . , . more. sally, we have a liberal democrat _ more. sally, we have a liberal democrat member _ more. sally, we have a liberal democrat member of - more. sally, we have a liberal. democrat member of parliament more. sally, we have a liberal- democrat member of parliament coming up, so maybe you can make any points you want to make about ed davey there. ourviewers you want to make about ed davey there. our viewers on bbc news and bbc to leave as now. thank

live from london, this is bbc news. violence in ecuador erupts. gunmen break into a live television studio, but its military rule out negotiations with the criminal gangs inciting it. on civilians in gaza is too high.