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tv   BBC News Now  BBC News  January 10, 2024 2:00pm-2:31pm GMT

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here is our political correspondent ian watson. the post office told us over and over, "you're the only one." that was a lie, actually. itv made a drama out of a crisis, a scandal that started more than 20 years ago came to public and political prominence. fewer than 100 sub—postmasters have had their wrongful convictions overturned and there's pressure to clear more names and pay out more compensation. the prime minister said there had been an appalling miscarriage of justice. there has been a flurry of meetings this week and finally today, an announcement. i can announce that we will introduce new primary legislation to make sure that those convicted
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as a result of the horizon scandal are swiftly exonerated and compensated. and rishi sunak also announced a £75,000 up—front payment to those postmasters who hadn't been convicted but who took legal action against the post office because their livelihoods had been affected. we will make sure that the truth comes to light, we right the wrongs and the victims get the justice they deserve. prosecutions took place notjust under a conservative government, but a coalition, which included the lib dems, and initially under labour. sir keir starmer welcomed today's announcement. people lost their lives, their liberty and their livelihood and they have been waiting far too long for the truth, forjustice, and for compensation, so i am glad the prime minister is putting forward a proposal. we will look at the details and think it is the job of all of us to make sure that it delivers the justice that is so needed. and yes, mps sought to blame
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westminster for the delay. the reality is, that when the public come knocking on the doors of this here chamber seeking justice, the government only answers when they have no options left. this has been described by the justice secretary as an unprecedented scandal, and passing a law to exonerate whole swathes of people all at once is certainly seen as a radical step, but some have doubts about politicians invading the territory usually occupied byjudges. some of those who have reviewed miscarriages ofjustice belief there is a better solution than an act of parliament. it's only the court of appeal that can definitively say in each individual case, this conviction is unsafe and therefore must be quashed. acts of parliament won't really do that. but what of the company behind the glitchy system? fujitsu has been awarded other government contracts
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worth billions of pounds, but ministers say they won't act until after a public inquiry has concluded. there are some questions about who is more responsible, fujitsu or post office or others. when the inquiry has identified responsibility, then those questions can be answered. today's announcement on exoneration and compensation will be welcomed by many victims of the scandal, but their long wait forjustice isn't over yet. iain watson, bbc news, westminster. so let's recap on what the government has announced about the post office scandal. a new law is to be introduced to exonerate hundreds of post office branch managers. the new legislation will apply to convictions in england and wales and downing street hopes they will be quashed by the end of the year. we learned that 95 out of more than 900 convictions have been overturned. the sub—postmasters will need to sign a document confirming they believe themselves
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to be innocent. there'll be a new upfront payment of £75,000 for the "vital" group of postmasters who took action against the post office. with more on this is our news correspondent charlie rose who's in the newsroom for us. if you can outline a process that the government has set up please. this is a huge moment in a massive scandal that has been going on for many years, if not decades in some cases. 700 or more formats are past masters and mistresses are wrongly convicted of false accounting, theft and fraud in this post office it scandal. because of those convictions they have been unable to access compensation but this afternoon, in the commons, the prime minister announced that they will be a new law quashing those convictions and opening up access to
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compensation. he also announced that there will be an upfront payment of £75,000 for those in the group of postmasters you mentioned, which brought about the initial legal action against the post office all those years ago. that group was led by alan bates, who is a story was highlighted in the recent itv drama which has been airing this year. that series also brought about a huge groundswell of public anger and the government has been trying to keep up with that all along. there has also been some concern that a small number of postmasters and mistresses might actually be guilty in all of this so to get around that the government says that anyone claiming compensation will have to sign a document, a statement, declaring their innocence. so this
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ha--ened declaring their innocence. so this happened during _ declaring their innocence. so this happened during prime _ declaring their innocence. so this happened during prime ministerl happened during prime minister questionsjust recently happened during prime minister questions just recently what has been the reaction so far? the questionsjust recently what has been the reaction so far? the bbc over the years _ been the reaction so far? the bbc over the years has _ been the reaction so far? the bbc over the years has been _ been the reaction so far? the bbc| over the years has been repeatedly speaking to the former said postmasters and mistresses affected by all of this. they have been asking why the government has taken so long to act in this way but broadly they have welcomed today's news from the prime minister. 0ne news from the prime minister. one has told the bbc that he can now walk again with his head held high. some have suggested that all of this should actually be a matter of for the court of appeal, not something that needs to be solved through an act of parliament. concern, if you like, that the government is stepping into the domain of the independentjudiciary but this new legislation is expected to be added to the statute books by the end of the year. to the statute books by the end of the ear. . .,, ., ~ , .,
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the year. charlie rose, thank you very much- _ the year. charlie rose, thank you very much. charlie _ the year. charlie rose, thank you very much. charlie mentioned - the year. charlie rose, thank you i very much. charlie mentioned alan bates in the itv drama that he was based upon the scandal. colleagues have spoken to mr bates and ijust want to redo his reaction to the news that the government is bringing this law. he said, that this is good news, it is another positive step but things aren't happening quick enough for the original group. what is being offered here in those who have smaller claims that the money is there and by the sounds of it it is there and by the sounds of it it is there and by the sounds of it it is the larger claims that are probably going to form the bulk of it. those are the ones that we still have to work with solicitors on to have to work with solicitors on to have our claims result. he also told radio four that it is a leap forward but it is not over yet. he ended by saying that the devil is in the detail and we have yet to see that. so that is the reaction from alan bates. alan bates was obviously part of the itv drama that was brought into the headlines in the last week and, of course, got to the government to act today. as we have been saying,
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more than 700 post office branch managers saying, were given criminal convictions — and only 93 of those convictions have been overturned by the courts. a fraction of those affected by the scandal, some of whom have never spoken publicly before — appeared on bbc breakfast this morning. frances reed has their stories. the people who run them are pillars of the community, trusted in every village and town. what they were accused of, they say, ruined their lives. the numbers affected, shocking. hundreds of wrongful convictions with imprisonments, bankruptcies and even people taking their own lives. so we're going to ask each individual to tell that story. the bbc spoke to a handful of victims today, including those who were told to plead guilty to avoid jail time. frankly, it wrecked my life, my family's life, and everybody i know's life. it was the most horrendous thing i have ever been through. for people like janet, it is still too raw.
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she did go to jail, leaving her kids behind. you went to prison. idid, yeah. what was that like? horrendous, it was horrendous. it is the worst thing that you just don't want to ever go through. i think it was harder as well because i had two teenage. i don't want to answer that question. 0k, mohammed, i was really struck by you saying. mohammed rasul was a dedicated worker for three decades. he was wrongly convicted of false accounting, and had to wear an electronic tag. i was totally recluse. although i knew i hadn't done it, | it wasjust the stigma attached. | my shortfall was £12,000, - which i paid out of my savings, what little i had. and lawyers for those impacted say the tentacles of that injustice reach much further. we don't really know the size of the victim pool in a sense, because we have the convicted, we have the non—convicted, we have those that,
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using loose language, were lucky enough to be not prosecuted in prison, but lost their homes, lost their minds and what have you, but there are equally other victims as well that aren't compensated, so we've got wives that have miscarried children because of stress, we've got relatives that have killed themselves. and support for victims now comes from each other. what happened to you, karen, as a result of all this? i was prosecuted for theft and i pleaded guilty- at magistrates' court, and so i was then- sentenced for a year. you went to prison? i went to prison, yes. oh, dear, dear, dear. i went to prison for three months and three months with a tag. - what was it like in there? actually, do you know what, - it was better than what i had been going through the two years before that. - what victims now want is accountability and public
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exoneration, unsure why it took a new year drama on tv for that to come closer. francis reed, bbc news. our business correspondent colletta smith has been talking to many of those affected by the scandal including former sub—postmaster tim brentnall. you have been hearing there lots of former sub—postmasters joining us here in the bbc, telling their stories once again, lots of whom we have spoken to repeatedly over the years that they have been going through this saga, wondering why, as you say, it has taken so long for the government to pay real attention to this issue. i'm joined right now by tim brentnall. tim was a former sub—postmaster in pembrokeshire. tim, you had a conviction in 2010, you had a criminal record from 2010 and it took 11 years for that to be overturned, didn't it? yes, i got my conviction quashed in 2021. today, we spent lunchtime together here watching the prime minister, watching the post office minister
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make new promises. does any of that bring you any more hope? yes, this is what we have been calling for, the quashing of all convictions, the government to legislate for it, to move it on, because it has been 2.5 years since my conviction was quashed and nothing has really happened for me in that 2.5 years. so hopefully this will now speed up the whole process for everyone else who has got convictions and also bring the recompense that we all deserve to the forefront. what sort of emotional difference and life difference did it bring to you when that conviction was overturned? what impact will that have for other individuals who this can happen for? a massive difference. i can walk with my head held high up again. people started to believe me that i hadn't done anything wrong. it was proven that the post office had prosecutors us all maliciously and it was a start to get some support behind us which the drama has now brought so much public pressure to the government that they are having to sort
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it out for everybody. there is still an element of trepidation, though, isn't there? because more than 2.5 years ago, we were reporting at the time of a prime minister saying there will be fast and fair compensation, and still it has been stuck in the system. yes, theyjust really need to move on their promise. now seems a little bit more real with the pressure that they are under that they will move quickly. we just really need to see the words translate into actions now. and for you, there is obviously a big group of sub—postmasters all in different circumstances but united and now united with the country and the public who understand this so much better. yes, it was fantastic news as well that they are going to start compensate the glo victims who had almost been left behind with nowhere to turn, so we can all start to move on. thank you very much, tim, for sharing your time. in a saga that has lasted for so many years, decades for some people, that has dragged on and on, the hope is that this is another corner turned towards justice
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as well as compensation. that is colette smith her business correspondence. chris herd is a former sub postmaster he was one of hundreds of people across the uk wrongly accused of theft and fraud. hundreds t and fraud. chris gave us his reaction to rishi sunak announcing this new law. it's fabulous news for them and for them people. you i mean, obviously, they've we couldn't continue down the processes that we were using because the justice system just was not able to cope with the vast number of people. and we're talking over 900 unsafe convictions. and have we continued at the current rate, we were looking at maybe ten or 15 years to get them overturned and probably likely that they would not be alive to see that happen. so the fact that they're bringing in the emergency legislation in order to deliver that, that helps unlock their compensation as well. and also news on the compensation, he was saying there is going to be
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an upfront payment of £75,000 for a vital group of postmasters that took the group action. yeah, i mean, iam in that group and i think the problem here is that, you know, we had a small amount of it given after the court case in 2009. we had the tiny top up again in 2022. so the amounts are coming in dribs and drabs. and i'm one of the complex cases that has a full claim into that scheme and they are still litigating and fight in every part of the claim. we need some kind of commitment that they're actually going to deliver on their promise, which is to restore postmasters back to the position that they would have been in, not this half, half approach where it's a little bit here, a little bit there. you know, we need some kind of commitment. i mean, i've had enough that's less than 15% of a professionally prepared claim. we're a million miles apart still. so what we still need to see a lot more on that to see where it takes us. a lot of the evidence in the individual cases from post office didn't exist or doesn't exist now because they went they destroyed things after seven years. so i understand from david davis
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what he said in terms of a group of people don't want to be classed and brought into the same bracket as others in case there was a bad apple in that group. but i don't see how else, unless they can set out any other measures, how they can put them individually through the courts. i don't see any other way we're going to deal with this in a matter of months or even a year rather than ten or 15 years. so i don't think... i don't see any other alternative here. and you welcome the news today. absolutely. i mean, look, i said you can't have potentially seven, eight, 900 people who are innocent to sit there because there might be a very, very tiny number within that group who may have done something wrong because they will never sayjustice. just say that name is clear and they will never access the compensation that they deserve. and a week ago, the itv drama was about to air. and now, a week later, we have this. can you quite believe it
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after all of the years that you have been campaigning? absolutely not. i mean, you know, we expected an uplift, obviously, from the drama. and the drama was fantastic. and it was really portrayed about the suffering that people went through. and i think that's what the general public got behind. but i could never believe that this is where we get to. i mean, it's really set a fire in in the house and obviously it's made mps act. but i think why has it taken this for that to happen? you know, why has it had to have an outrage from the public? the government had no option but to act. you know, this story has been out there for 20 years and within the last couple of years, since the high court case, we could have had this dealt with well well before now. yeah. and there are still questions about how the post office handled it and are still handling it. that's the problem. i mean, obviously, at the minute, the post office are still in charge of the compensation scheme for a group of people, for the ones that have had their convictions overturned, and another group in that.
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so the fact that post office are still controlling that particular part and we're still halfway through the inquiry as well, i think that a lot needs to be done and we should have just they should have grabbed this while they had the chance, take it everything out of his hands, put it in with an independent body, shared it with a judge, and allowed them to make the awards that people are due. sorry, because obviously this has just been dragging on forfar too long. and briefly, are you hopeful that this can be sorted quite quickly? i hope so. i mean, i'm hoping that this further announcement will come this week and they can put this emergency legislation in place within weeks or a small number of months. and obviously, this can be all tied up by the end of this year, hopefully at the very, very latest. just want to bring you a line of breaking news that we are getting from a political correspondent. he has been talking to downing street. downing street wants to have
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completed the process of quashing the convictions of those involved in the convictions of those involved in the post office scandal by the end of the year. in terms of the timeframe that we are looking at, they won't downing street say to have this sorted by the end of the year. the prime minister's official spokesman said the ambition is to do this this year and introduce the legislation within weeks. we are confident that it will be well supported and the spokesman said that all convictions would be quashed and this will be done on a blanket basis, clearing peoples names and making sure they access the compensation they rightly deserve as quickly as possible instead of waiting for years for the courts to wade through hundreds of convictions. numberten courts to wade through hundreds of convictions. number ten also went on to say that it will be working with the devolved administrations in scotland and northern ireland as it's not something that they can do across the whole of the uk. the law that the government has introduced
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only applies to england and wales and number ten say they are going to work with the devolved administrations in scotland and northern ireland. asked if rishi sunak would consider putting alan bates, one of the sub postmasters who helped expose the scandal up for alana, the prime minister's press secretary said there was a former or formal process for honours but it is hard to think of someone more deserving to be rewarded through the honour system than him. there was a line is we have had from downing street from our correspondent. the timeframe for bringing this law in, downing street say they want to bring it in by the end of the year. a little earlier i spoke to nicky arch who ran the chalford hill post office in gloucester. and was wrongly accused of stealing £24,000. i asked to her tell me what happened. i was running a business, a little shop and the local post office. i had the
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auditors—come—investigators turn up. they closed me down immediately. i was eventually charged, once they'd splashed all over the local newspapers that i'd stolen money off of elderly people. two years after that, i did a three and a half day crime court appearance and defended myself. and luckily the jury acquitted me and found me not guilty. but by then, it was too late. two years on, everything had gone. everything had been ruined. my reputation was in pieces. yeah, it was hideous. but, you know, 2a years on nearly now, and the fight continues. the story has also been covered on nicky campbell's radio 5 show this morning. during an emotional programme he took this call from karenjolliffe — a sub—postmistress who spent
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three months injail after a shortfall in her accounts. take a listen. well, i'd been running my post office — it was like a main one, they closed the main one down the road for 20 years and in 2000 i had the horizon system put in and we just kept being sure. —— just kept being short. up to that point, i was audited not 20, about 17 years. i was audited and everything was fine. and then i kept being short. my husband, when we were old in our 60s, he was 67. he was taking the lump sum out of his pension pot and in the end he couldn't do it anymore. so i wasn't brave like all the other postmasters. i took a route where i hid it and i hid it and moved money around from the shop to the post office for about eight months, two years. and i knew that... i mean, i knew it. i don't know. i couldn't take it.
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and then i knew i was going to be audited. and when they came out, i just confessed. i'd asked my managers, why was i keep being short before this, before i did all that. and they said, look at your staff. and i'd had my staff with me from the beginning and i knew it wasn't them. no one could help at all. i phoned up and nothing and ijust buried my head in the sand. i didn't know whether i was coming or going and just carried on until the auditors arrived. and as soon as they came, ijust said, yes, i've done it. i'd never had a clue that it was horizon. it never entered my head that it would be a computer. and when i feel so stupid, when i look at mr. bates and how he'd worked it out, you know, why didn't i? i'm not a stupid person. really. yeah. well, what happened to you, karen, as a result of all this?
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it's the theft. and i pleaded guilty at magistrates' court, and so i was sentenced for a year and then i went to prison. yeah. oh, i went to prison for three months and three months with the tag. what was it like in there actually? do you know what? it was better than what i'd been going through the two years before that. wow. and it was ijust... i was all right in there. i didn't have anyone be nasty to me or anything. and that's all i can say, really. it's just what i did to my family. that's what i'll never... my grandson was eight. he was bullied at school. my daughter in law, the mothers didn't speak to her. but on the whole, my family stood by me and friends and the people that came in my shop. they all wrote to me when i was in prison. i had so many letters. so i was lucky in that respect.
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they all supported me. that is karen, a former sub postmistress talking to nicky campbell on radio five live some this morning. michael curran and his wife kate ran a post office in glasgow in the 90s. he joins us live now. today's government announcement doesn't apply to scotland — but the scottish government is considering whether to bring its own legislation. i wonder if i can ask you for your reaction festival to the news of this law in england and wales at least. i this law in england and wales at least. , , , ., , least. i suppose it is a little bit disappointing _ least. i suppose it is a little bit disappointing that _ least. i suppose it is a little bit disappointing that scotland - least. i suppose it is a little bit| disappointing that scotland has least. i suppose it is a little bit - disappointing that scotland has not been included. we all one country, they keep on saying. what been included. we all one country, they keep on saying.— been included. we all one country, they keep on saying. what would you like the scottish _ they keep on saying. what would you like the scottish government - they keep on saying. what would you like the scottish government to - they keep on saying. what would you like the scottish government to do? | like the scottish government to do? just exactly what this doing in england. unfortunately, it is a ridiculous position that we all find ourselves in. i cannot believe that this has gone on so long. my wife is ready tojump out this has gone on so long. my wife is ready to jump out of the window,
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type thing, she is demented. just tell us what _ type thing, she is demented. just tell us what happened to you and your wife. we tell us what happened to you and our wife. ~ ,., ., .,, tell us what happened to you and ourwife. ~ ., , . your wife. we bought a post office in the late 90s _ your wife. we bought a post office in the late 90s and _ your wife. we bought a post office in the late 90s and thinking - your wife. we bought a post office in the late 90s and thinking it - your wife. we bought a post office in the late 90s and thinking it was| in the late 90s and thinking it was a secure business as everybody is told is. we did it for a few years, we enjoyed it and then things started going wrong and before you know it, we were up to a deficit of £40,000. ., know it, we were up to a deficit of £40,000.— know it, we were up to a deficit of £40,000. ., , ,, ., ., £40,000. how did the process go from that oint £40,000. how did the process go from that point and — £40,000. how did the process go from that point and what _ £40,000. how did the process go from that point and what did _ £40,000. how did the process go from that point and what did you _ £40,000. how did the process go from that point and what did you face - £40,000. how did the process go from that point and what did you face in - that point and what did you face in those years at?— that point and what did you face in those years at? what happened right awa was those years at? what happened right away was that _ those years at? what happened right away was that we _ those years at? what happened right away was that we contacted - those years at? what happened right away was that we contacted the - those years at? what happened right away was that we contacted the area | away was that we contacted the area managers who brought a team of auditors and our sub—postmaster with them. they threw us out of the post office right there and then. the 0ffice right there and then. the sub—postmaster they brought in, he ran the place for a week or two and we were locked out and could not have access. we also had a shop in it and we thought about the shop,
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running it, but it was not profitable so we decided to sell the post office under the orders of the post office under the orders of the post office under the orders of the post office and when it was time to sell it we did not know at the time that the branch manager had told the new buyer that i was made bankrupt and he needn't offer the full money. it must have put a huge stress on you and your wife, what was your reaction from the local community? i was brought up in easterhouse and when i was taking the post office on i had no idea of any trouble. my wife did, she was a little bit unsure. i was brought up there, went to school there and i knew a lot of people and they could not believe it. they knew that there was no chance of me stealing money. you know, when we got locked out they could not believe it. after that, we met some of them in a local
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supermarket and they were all devastated, they were asking us to come back. we found out at that time that the person who had taken over the post office and paid the money, the post office and paid the money, the £42,000, he had run away. he shut the post office up one day and did not come back. this shut the post office up one day and did not come back.— did not come back. this last week, followin: did not come back. this last week, following the _ did not come back. this last week, following the itv _ did not come back. this last week, following the itv drama, _ did not come back. this last week, following the itv drama, and - did not come back. this last week, following the itv drama, and nowl following the itv drama, and now where we are today with this news from the government, ijust want your reaction to that from drama to where we are now... i your reaction to that from drama to where we are now. . ._ your reaction to that from drama to where we are now... i cannot believe it. what where we are now... i cannot believe it- what my — where we are now... i cannot believe it- what my wife _ where we are now... i cannot believe it. what my wife and _ where we are now. .. i cannot believe it. what my wife and myself- where we are now... i cannot believe it. what my wife and myself have - it. what my wife and myself have suffered and other people, my family did not know until this came out in the last week or so. you are talking from 2004 to today. that's a long time that we were able to suppress that problem. it was very very difficult. my wife, even when it came back into the limelight, kate did not want to do anything about it. it was my daughter that insisted
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that we continue and try to get some compensation for what they had done to us. �* , ., compensation for what they had done tous.�* ., ., compensation for what they had done tous. ., ., , to us. are you hopeful that that is auoin to to us. are you hopeful that that is going to happen? _ to us. are you hopeful that that is going to happen? to _ to us. are you hopeful that that is going to happen? to be _ to us. are you hopeful that that is going to happen? to be honest, l to us. are you hopeful that that is i going to happen? to be honest, no. to us. are you hopeful that that is - going to happen? to be honest, no. i can't trust the — going to happen? to be honest, no. i can't trust the way _ going to happen? to be honest, no. i can't trust the way the _ going to happen? to be honest, no. i can't trust the way the system - going to happen? to be honest, no. i can't trust the way the system is - going to happen? to be honest, no. i can't trust the way the system is at l can't trust the way the system is at the moment. we lost, i would say in term of financial sense, we lost about £80,000. then we lost our jobs. at the time of the actual looking as out, i was in hospital having a hip replacement. michael, we're going — having a hip replacement. michael, we're going to _ having a hip replacement. michael, we're going to have _ having a hip replacement. michael, we're going to have to _ having a hip replacement. michael, we're going to have to leave - having a hip replacement. michael, we're going to have to leave it - we're going to have to leave it there, thank you very much for joining us. this is bbc news. we set an emotional boss of boeing says the playmaker acknowledges its mistakes after the door blew out on one of
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its aircraft shortly after take—off last week. —— says the plane maker. a fake social media post sends the price of bitcoinjumping, as speculation mounts that the us regulator will approve a new way to trade the cryptocurrency. welcome to world business report, i'm tadgh enright. we start in the us and the boss of aviation giant boeing says the airline "acknowledges its mistake" after some of its newest planes were found to have loose parts. investigations began after the cabin panel of a 737 max 9 jet operated alaska airlines blew off mid—flight last week, opening a hole in the side of the plane. thankfully no—one was injured. it's the second major safety scandal to put
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the 737 max in spotlight — the first involved the deaths of 346

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