tv Verified Live BBC News January 10, 2024 3:00pm-3:31pm GMT
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make sure that those convicted as a result of the horizon scandal are swiftly exonerated and compensated. we'll hear from some of those wrongly accused and wrongly convicted describing the ordeal they endured. it wrecked my life, my family's life and everybody i know�*s life. it was the most horrendous thing i have ever been through. ecuador�*s president declares war on armed gangs after gunmen storm a television station, live on air. the uk and us navies fight off the largest attack so far by iran backed houthi rebels on ships in the red sea. hello, welcome to verified live, three hours of breaking stories, and checking out the truth behind them. we start here in the uk with a major development on a story which has
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dominated the headlines for the past week. the prime minister has announced that new legislation will be brought in to make sure that those convicted in one of the biggest miscarriages ofjustice the uk has ever seen. who worked for the post office are swiftly exonerated and compensated. more than 700 sub postmasters received criminal convictions for fraud and false accounting, over a period of around 16 years, after it introduced a faulty it system. some went to prison and many were made bankrupt. we'll get reaction from one sub postmaster in a moment but first our political correspondent iain watson reports. the post office told us over and over, "you're the only one." that was a lie, actually. itv made a drama out of a crisis, a scandal that started more than 20 years ago came to public and political prominence.
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fewer than 100 sub—postmasters have had their wrongful convictions overturned and there's pressure to clear more names and pay out more compensation. the prime minister said there had been an appalling miscarriage of justice. there has been a flurry of meetings this week and finally today, an announcement. i can announce that we will introduce new primary legislation to make sure that those convicted as a result of the horizon scandal are swiftly exonerated and compensated. and rishi sunak also announced a £75,000 up—front payment to those postmasters who hadn't been convicted but who took legal action against the post office because their livelihoods had been affected. we will make sure that the truth comes to light, we right the wrongs and the victims get the justice they deserve. prosecutions took place notjust under a conservative government, but a coalition, which included the lib dems, and initially under labour. sir keir starmer welcomed today's announcement. people lost their lives,
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their liberty and their livelihood and they have been waiting far too long for the truth, forjustice, and for compensation, so i am glad the prime minister is putting forward a proposal. we will look at the details and think it is the job of all of us to make sure that it delivers the justice that is so needed. and yes, mps sought to blame westminster for the delay. this has been described by the justice secretary as an unprecedented scandal. swathes of people all at once is certainly seen as a radical step, but some have doubts about politicians invading the territory usually occupied byjudges. some of those who have reviewed miscarriages ofjustice belief there is a better solution than an act of parliament. some of those who have reviewed miscarriages ofjustice believe there is a better solution than an act of parliament. it's only the court of appeal that can definitively say in each individual case, this conviction is unsafe and therefore must be quashed. acts of parliament
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won't really do that. but what of the company behind the glitchy system? fujitsu has been awarded other government contracts worth billions of pounds, but ministers say they won't act until after a public inquiry has concluded. there are some questions about who is more responsible, fujitsu or post office or others. when the inquiry has identified responsibility, then those questions can be answered. today's announcement on exoneration and compensation will be welcomed by many victims of the scandal, but their long wait forjustice isn't over yet. iain watson, bbc news, westminster. live now to westminster and our uk political correspondent rob watson. robert, an extraordinary day there in the house of commons. this primary legislation rishi sunak has announced, when is that likely to be introduced? what are the details you are hearing? it is
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introduced? what are the details you are hearing?— are hearing? it is likely to be introduced _ are hearing? it is likely to be introduced in _ are hearing? it is likely to be introduced in a _ are hearing? it is likely to be introduced in a matter - are hearing? it is likely to be introduced in a matter of - are hearing? it is likely to be i introduced in a matter of weeks rather than months. the two main thrusts of it as we're hearing from my colleague, is to have a blanket exoneration for everybody who was convicted between 2000 and 2015 and to set up a system where you get rapid compensation in particular, there is going to be £75,000 made available upfront to this hardcore group, if that's the right description of 555 at sub—postmaster and mistresses who first took action against the post office. in and mistresses who first took action against the post office.— against the post office. in terms of the compensation, _ against the post office. in terms of the compensation, will _ against the post office. in terms of the compensation, will the - the compensation, will the government, at some stage, be pushing fujitsu to shoulder some of the eventual, which will be a huge bill? ., , the eventual, which will be a huge bill? . , , ., , , , bill? the answer is that we simply do not know _ bill? the answer is that we simply do not know. a _ bill? the answer is that we simply do not know. a similar _
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bill? the answer is that we simply do not know. a similar question . bill? the answer is that we simply i do not know. a similar question has been raised about the post office. should the post office pay for any compensation, any extra compensation as opposed to the government does, which is another way of saying taxpayers in the uk. i guess what is going to happen is that the government will wait and see what happens as a result of the public inquiry which started two years ago and which is supposed to end at the end of this year. of course, there is a police investigation can be in. there are so many questions here. questions about the post office, questions about fujitsu, questions about the oversight of these so—called arm's—length government. in terms of its resonating, it's a story that has really resonated at right across the country, hasn't it? it is, and one cannot convey this now. i was one of the mob of 90 million people who watched this. it
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really has resonated and i don't think it's an exaggeration to say it is the biggest story in britain at the moment and over the last few days. there are a number of reasons for that. days. there are a number of reasons forthat. number one, it is days. there are a number of reasons for that. number one, it is an essential british characteristic that we like the idea of a fair plate. and there is a sense that these hundreds of people have lost an awful lot. they are up against this faceless bureaucracy and they were not able to do much about it. i think it is also resonated because it also chimes with a national mood of disquiet. a feeling that things are not working well in this country. i think it chimes as well with a sense, fair or not, large institutions like the post office, notjust institutions like the post office, not just that but institutions like the post office, notjust that but energy companies, water companies, these large greedy bureaucracies or corporate hierarchies where nobody ever takes the blame and all of that compounded by a sense of why on earth didn't
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politicians put this earlier? why didn't the courts? why didn't the justice system, why didn't journalists do? it chimes with a resignation of national sense that something is not quite right with this but other things too.- this but other things too. thank you so much. this but other things too. thank you so much- as— this but other things too. thank you so much. as promised _ this but other things too. thank you so much. as promised let's - this but other things too. thank you so much. as promised let's speak. this but other things too. thank you i so much. as promised let's speak now to lee castleton who was left bankrupt after a two year legal battle with the post office. his story featured prominently in that tv drama. lee, welcome to the programme. a reaction to what you have from the prime minister, please. their otential prime minister, please. their potential interim _ prime minister, please. their potential interim payments . prime minister, please. tue: " potential interim payments would prime minister, please. tte: " potential interim payments would be appreciated. it's a little bit of a caveat there, i would just like to get to the end of this, really.
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sticking plasters, whilst appreciated, ijust feel sticking plasters, whilst appreciated, i just feel as though we are not moving forward. i would like to get everything done, really. it seems that heels are still being very sticky and being dragged behind and it would be nice if we could get some movement forward. t’m and it would be nice if we could get some movement forward.— some movement forward. i'm not surrised some movement forward. i'm not surprised you _ some movement forward. i'm not surprised you came _ some movement forward. i'm not surprised you came to _ some movement forward. i'm not surprised you came to that - surprised you came to that conclusion because your case has spanned over 20 years, i was listening to you on the radio this morning and it is staggering, awful story. forviewers morning and it is staggering, awful story. for viewers who do not know your particular story, let's just go through it. when it first happened, the initial deficit, you did not think, you were not suspicious of the computer where you initially? not at all. i thought that potentially i was doing something wrong, that i had missed something. but when it repeats itself and recurs repeatedly then you start to look at things and a different way. ijust look at things and a different way. i just felt as though no matter look at things and a different way. ijust felt as though no matter how many times i reached out, i reached
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out 91 times, i was just kind of lost in the system and no one seemed to take hold of it. ijust got bounced around. it became absolutely apparent to me that there was something wrong.— apparent to me that there was something wrong. apparent to me that there was somethin: wronu. ~ . ., , something wrong. what was the post office's approach? _ something wrong. what was the post office's approach? you _ something wrong. what was the post office's approach? you mentioned i office's approach? you mentioned there, you called them 91 times, the numbers, they were getting bigger and bigger so when you approach them give me a sense of what they said to you. give me a sense of what they said to ou. . , ., , give me a sense of what they said to ou. . , ., you. initially, it was about whether i had done — you. initially, it was about whether i had done something _ you. initially, it was about whether i had done something wrong. i you. initially, it was about whether i had done something wrong. they| i had done something wrong. they would go over the balance, the procedure to balance each time. which i would quite happily do but we could not find anything that was wrong. the one thing that stood out the whole time was that we were having issues, screen freezes and things that you would have to do twice, payments and things. itjust did not seem right. as more and more of these things occurred it got more
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and more fraught. it became more of and more fraught. it became more of an argument between one side and the other. most relationships like that break down and it becomes very difficult. over the 12 week period it became very fractious and obviously, went on to be even more fractious. it was then that i really learned what power can do. in fractious. it was then that i really learned what power can do. in terms of what power _ learned what power can do. in terms of what power can _ learned what power can do. in terms of what power can do, _ learned what power can do. in terms of what power can do, you _ learned what power can do. in terms of what power can do, you had i learned what power can do. in terms of what power can do, you had a i of what power can do, you had a deficit, i think, of what power can do, you had a deficit, ithink, when of what power can do, you had a deficit, i think, when they took a civil case against two of about £25,000 but the costs that you had to pay as a result of that civil case being brought against you, tell viewers what that amount was because it is staggering? yes. viewers what that amount was because it is staggering?— it is staggering? yes, it was staggering _ it is staggering? yes, it was staggering to _ it is staggering? yes, it was staggering to me _ it is staggering? yes, it was staggering to me at - it is staggering? yes, it was staggering to me at the i it is staggering? yes, it was i staggering to me at the time, it it is staggering? yes, it was - staggering to me at the time, it was £321,000. if you put that into the thought process, i was actually representing myself at that time because i had completely run out of money. the post office were totally aware of the situation. they knew in
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no uncertain terms, no matter what the case was, i was not going to be able to pay those kinds of costs anyway. even thejudge, priorto able to pay those kinds of costs anyway. even thejudge, prior to the hearing told them it was going to be a very difficult route to take, to recoup anything and they were not interested at all and they wanted to go ahead and press ahead. hearing that £321,000 costs were awarded against me and it led to my bankruptcy. against me and it led to my bankruotcy-_ against me and it led to my bankruptcy. against me and it led to my bankrut . , ., bankruptcy. yes, you had to become bankru t. bankruptcy. yes, you had to become bankruot- give _ bankruptcy. yes, you had to become bankrupt. give me _ bankruptcy. yes, you had to become bankrupt. give me an _ bankruptcy. yes, you had to become bankrupt. give me an idea _ bankruptcy. yes, you had to become bankrupt. give me an idea of - bankruptcy. yes, you had to become bankrupt. give me an idea of the i bankrupt. give me an idea of the impact it had on yourfamily, your children, your wife and, more importantly, how the local community are treated you? we importantly, how the local community are treated you?— are treated you? we were living in a ve small are treated you? we were living in a very small fishing _ are treated you? we were living in a very small fishing town _ are treated you? we were living in a very small fishing town in _ are treated you? we were living in a very small fishing town in east i very small fishing town in east yorkshire, very close to where we were both born. i had
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been a stockbroker prior and wasn't very good one, to be fair. we thought it was a great way to cement our life in the north. we owned our house completely we had no mortgage or anything at the age of 35 and we decided to invest in a post office. little did i know that that would lead to lead to being completely ostracised in this small town, people abusing us in the street as being thieves, particularly my children being bullied. this led on to all kinds of mental issues, anxiety for my wife lead to seizures and epilepsy and for my daughter, bless her, being the oldest of two children, she suffered at school and she was insulted by a boy because his parents could not get their money from the post office any more because was closed. it led on to an
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eating disorderfor because was closed. it led on to an eating disorder for my daughter, which lasted until, she is 28 now, but thankfully she recovered but it went on for at least ten years. it was very difficult to take. tt is was very difficult to take. it is devastating. _ was very difficult to take. it is devastating. when _ was very difficult to take. it is devastating. when you stack it up, all the things that have happened to you and your family, all the things that have happened to you and yourfamily, how do all the things that have happened to you and your family, how do you even begin to try to work out what kind of competition is due to you? and what would it mean if the judgment against you is actually overturned? my against you is actually overturned? my judgment against you is actually overturned? myjudgment is a civiljudgment and it was heard in the high court. it's still not set aside it still stands as a record of the high court. that's properly a little bit to do with my and my fault for example i have a trust issue. i know the post office would like to say that side and i'm sure we could work it out.
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they criminalise people, the people that went through terrible traumas in very similar circumstances possibly worse than my family. looking to have those examinations pushed and moved forward. one of the things that have been been announced. that really concerns me, the minister, kevin hollinrake mentioned that some of these people will be guilty but they all need to sign a document to say they committed no offence, i worry about that. having talked to many of my friends who were victims to, say many of them were guilty, if you were in a room of a 100 people and two of them said they were thieves, how would you react to the other 98? i find that very, very difficult. i don't understand why that caveat needs to be there. i don't
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understand why we got into the situation and i don't understand why individuals cannot be treated properly. individuals cannot be treated --roerl . individuals cannot be treated --roerl. ., individuals cannot be treated --roerl . .,, ., ., ,, individuals cannot be treated --roerl. ., . ~ properly. lee castleton, thank you ve much properly. lee castleton, thank you very much for— properly. lee castleton, thank you very much for taking _ properly. lee castleton, thank you very much for taking the _ properly. lee castleton, thank you very much for taking the time i properly. lee castleton, thank you very much for taking the time to i very much for taking the time to speak to us and perhaps that is one of the questions we will raise with people as we continue with the story throughout the length of a show. thank you so much for talking to us here on bbc news.— here on bbc news. you're so very welcome and — here on bbc news. you're so very welcome and thank _ here on bbc news. you're so very welcome and thank you _ here on bbc news. you're so very welcome and thank you for- here on bbc news. you're so very i welcome and thank you for listening. around the world and across the uk. this is bbc news. let's look at some other stories making news. the london to birmingham stretch of the now truncated hs2 railway could cost as much as £66 billion alone in current prices. that's almost twice as much as the original estimate for the entire project. the hs2 ltd executive chair said reasons for the cost increase include original budgets being too low, changes to scope, poor delivery and inflation. the parents of a british tourist who died after a helicopter crash in the grand canyon are to receive a £79 million payout.
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31—year—old jonathan udall was one of five britons, including his new wife, who died after the aircraft crashed and burst into flames in february 2018. a lawsuit brought by his parents said he could have survived had the helicopter been fitted with systems to help prevent the fire. the actor stephen fry has called for an end to the use of real fur in the bearskin caps worn by the king's guard on duties such as guarding buckingham palace. he is backing an animal welfare campaign calling for them to be made with artificial fur instead. you're live with bbc news. the head of ecuador�*s armed forces has ruled out any negotiations with the criminals behind a wave of violence in the country. the military has been authorised by the president, daniel n'boa, to "neutralise" 22 armed groups. he said ecuador was facing an internal armed conflict. on tuesday night, gunmen stormed a television studio and threatened staff live on air. the men, wearing balaclavas, burst into the studio, taking severaljournalists and staff members hostage. the police say, the attack will be treated as an act
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of terrorism and 13 men have been arrested. schools have been temporarily closed, while the peruvian government has deployed police to its border with ecuador. live now to our south america correspondent ione wells. thank you so much for being on the programme with us.— thank you so much for being on the programme with us. matthew, i think the situation — programme with us. matthew, i think the situation in _ programme with us. matthew, i think the situation in ecuador _ programme with us. matthew, i think the situation in ecuador can _ programme with us. matthew, i think the situation in ecuador can really i the situation in ecuador can really be boiled down to three things, one of them has to do with policy so ecuador really stopped collaborating with major security partners, namely the united states about 15 years ago. that really opened up the country for criminal and
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drug—related gangs from mexico and colombia to partner up with ecuadorian gangs and increase trafficking through ecuador. the second one is the fact that ecuador has been in a major austerity situation since 2017 and this has reduced both the capabilities of the security forces of the prison services and also and crucially the economic situation in the country is terrible and allows for criminal gangs to exploit the economic benefit they offer people. the third one is the drugs trade, globally, has shifted. cocaine that used to go from south america to the united states is now are largely going to western africa and europe and ecuador has become the main exporting port for cocaine produced in piru. the combination of these
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three factors and particularly the pandemic has meant that the situation, the security situation, has worsened very quickly over the past few years. has worsened very quickly over the past few years-— has worsened very quickly over the past few years. that's a very good, clear explanation, _ past few years. that's a very good, clear explanation, in _ past few years. that's a very good, clear explanation, in terms - past few years. that's a very good, clear explanation, in terms of- past few years. that's a very good, clear explanation, in terms of the i clear explanation, in terms of the armed forces and police that you mention. how capable are they of actually getting a grip and quelling this violence?— actually getting a grip and quelling this violence? without support and financin: this violence? without support and financing and _ this violence? without support and financing and equipment _ this violence? without support and financing and equipment and i financing and equipment and intelligence gathering, the situation isn't going to improve quickly. i think that it is important to mention that ecuador is looking to collaborate with partners, both with the united states and also with regional cloud partners, like colombia and peru and has been doing so for the last two years. of course, it is a lot of lost ground that we will need to
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recover. a key question is has the government, in the current austerity situation, increased funding in an effective way, it is not only about armament but it is crucial to improve intelligence gathering. g, improve intelligence gathering. a quick thought, the president as we have said it has a declared war is on the drugs gangs, the armed gangs, we have seen this and other countries like colombia, in terms of who is going to come out on top, what is your assessment because it is incredibly dangerous, isn't it? absolutely. ecuador is now in a state of exception for 60 days. the military can start to perform civilian policing duties. all of this in ecuador and in latin america more generally tends to result in breaches of human rights that is something to watch quite closely. in the short term, it may deliver
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results. my analysis is that the president is using the coming 12 months to strengthen his own possibility of re—election in february 2025 so i think that he will go very strongly to solve the security situation as a springboard to re—election and attacking the economic crisis. to re-election and attacking the economic crisis.— economic crisis. good to talk to ou, economic crisis. good to talk to you. thank _ economic crisis. good to talk to you. thank you _ economic crisis. good to talk to you, thank you so _ economic crisis. good to talk to you, thank you so much - economic crisis. good to talk to you, thank you so much for i economic crisis. good to talk to i you, thank you so much forjoining us here in the programme. we will have more from ecuador a little later on today programme. let's turn to the middle east. america's top diplomat, antony blinken, has met palestinian leaders in the west bank on the final day of his latest visit to the region. he met the head of the palestinian authority, mahmoud abbas in ramallah. according to palestinian media, president abbas told mr blinken israel needs to immediately stop the war of extermination against the palestinian people in gaza and the west bank. the state department says mr blinken stressed that a route towards a palestinian state must be part of the solution to the conflict. israeli air strikes have intensified on southern and central gaza despite israel saying,
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it will shift to a more targeted campaign. the hamas run health ministry said another 147 people were killed and another 147 people were killed and another 240 wounded in bars in the past 24 hours. the situation at israel's northern border with lebanon remains volatile. these recent pictures released by the israeli military show, what they say, are strikes on his brother targets in various locations. the uk government has warned yemen's houthi rebels that enough is enough over attacks on shipping in the red sea. it comes after us and british naval forces, shot down 21 drones and missiles, fired by the houthis towards international shipping. the uk defence secretary grant shapps says, it was the largest such attack yet. us central command says, they were shot down with no injuries or damage reported, adding that it was the 26th attack by the iranian backed houthis on commercial shipping lanes since mid november. joining me is narges bajoghli, assistant professor of middle east studies atjohns hopkins university.
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thank you so much for being here with us. these are the latest attacks are the largest yet by those houthi rebels, it is worrying because for three months now the international community has been trying to damp down this conflict spreading but spreading it looks like it is? , . spreading but spreading it looks likeitis? , . , like it is? yes, the conflict is escalating — like it is? yes, the conflict is escalating on _ like it is? yes, the conflict is escalating on a _ like it is? yes, the conflict is escalating on a day - like it is? yes, the conflict is escalating on a day by i like it is? yes, the conflict is i escalating on a day by day and like it is? yes, the conflict is - escalating on a day by day and week by week basis across the region. the region continues its bombing campaign. of gaza. it will continue to retaliate. this is what we are seeing as part of their larger conflict. , ., ,., , conflict. the uk government saying enou:h conflict. the uk government saying enou . h is conflict. the uk government saying enough is enough. _ conflict. the uk government saying enough is enough. they _ conflict. the uk government saying enough is enough. they have i enough is enough. they have previously warned along with the americans of consequences, how likely is that to make any difference?— likely is that to make any
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difference? ~ ., , , likely is that to make any difference? ~ . , , . ., difference? well, it has been clear from both the _ difference? well, it has been clear from both the american _ difference? well, it has been clear from both the american and i difference? well, it has been clear from both the american and as i difference? well, it has been clear| from both the american and as well as from iran and hezbollah they are looking for a regionwide war however, the core issue here is israel and gaza. as long as israel continues to bomb gaza in the way that it has been, the houthis and hezbollah will continue to retaliate, either against israeli positions and military and other shipping in the red sea or against american military bases whether or in iraq. american military bases whether or in iran. ., ., american military bases whether or in ira. . ., , american military bases whether or in ira. ., ., , , in iraq. iran, of course, denies involvement — in iraq. iran, of course, denies involvement but _ in iraq. iran, of course, denies involvement but their- in iraq. iran, of course, denies involvement but their proxies, j in iraq. iran, of course, denies- involvement but their proxies, they have we have we have been talking about the houthis, you have mentioned hezbollah in lebanon, there are daily exchanges across that border and that situations is to be getting worse and it's pretty critical now, how dangerous is it currently given what we have heard from israel puzzled by mr in the
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last 48 hours? 50. from israel puzzled by mr in the last 48 hours?— from israel puzzled by mr in the last 48 hours? so, what's going on is that those _ last 48 hours? so, what's going on is that those escalations _ last 48 hours? so, what's going on is that those escalations continue l is that those escalations continue to rise and the resistance, it is important to note that it is an military alliance in the region. it is backed and was created by iran and it was done so in a way that, especially over the years and over the past three or four or years, this axis has become more decentralised and now they all fight together and they all fight in alliance with one another. strategic decision and things like that are relegated to each of the groups. that includes hezbollah and various iraqi resistance and iran and his has been a horizon.— iraqi resistance and iran and his has been a horizon. thank you so much for your— has been a horizon. thank you so much for your time _ has been a horizon. thank you so much for your time to _ has been a horizon. thank you so much for your time to be - has been a horizon. thank you so much for your time to be with i has been a horizon. thank you so much for your time to be with us| has been a horizon. thank you so l much for your time to be with us on today's programme. back with more of the day headlines here in a moment or two.
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hello there. this cold, fine, settled spell of weather is continuing today. we'll see the best of the sunshine, i think, across more southern parts of the country. but here again, we have more of that easterly breeze taking the edge off the temperatures. further north,a bit more cloud around. big area of high pressure dominating the scene. around it we're getting some clouds in off the north sea. that's affecting northeastern parts of the country, so this is where we're seeing the cloudier skies through the rest of today, north and east scotland and eastern england, maybe thick enough for the odd spot of light rain or drizzle, a little bit of wintriness over the high ground. best of the sunshine, southern, south—east england. some glimmers of brightness for western wales, northern ireland and also western scotland. temperature—wise, maybe a degree up on yesterday, highs of six or seven degrees. factor in the wind, though, it'll feel much colder than that. as we head through tonight,
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it stays cloudy across some northern and eastern areas. where skies are clear, though — central scotland, southern, south—east england — this is where we will see some of the lowest temperatures, perhaps down to minus four, minus five celsius in central scotland. similar values towards the south—east, but less cold where we have the cloud. but mist and fog could also be a problem where the skies are clear. so for thursday, similar story again. most of the cloud will be towards eastern areas with the odd spot of drizzle. southern and western parts seeing the best of the sunshine. scotland doing pretty well with the sunshine, i think, through thursday afternoon. the temperatures a little less cold again, up to eight degrees, so a degree or so above what we've had earlier in the week. it's still cold but less cold. friday, then, probably the best of the sunshine across scotland, some sunshine developing for northern ireland. elsewhere, it stays cloudy and rather gloomy, ithink, for large parts of england and wales, maybe some brightness western wales, south—west england, and again temperatures up to around eight degrees. it's all change, though, as we head into the weekend.
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although there'll still be some sunshine in the south, we'll see these cold fronts spreading southwards. behind it, arctic airfloods southwards, so it will be turning colder with increasing snow showers certainly affecting northern scotland, the northern isles where accumulations will be increasing. further south,a better chance of staying drier with some sunshine, but it will be cold for all. into next week, it stays cold, further sunshine and snow showers, and then there's a risk of some more widespread, perhaps disruptive snow around the middle part of next week, so stay tuned.
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