while the sperm whales sound very simple, their patterns of clicks is a bit like morse code. the two clans we discovered this on, one sounds click—click—click—click, and the other sounds click—click—click. . . click. the study also showed the whales use their distinct dialects to communicate and make democratic consensual decisions about where to go. one example saw them take an hour and a half to decide whether or not to make a 90 degree turn, and what the researchers called a slow and messy process. jon donnison, bbc news. time for a look at the weather, here's chris fawkes. today

hello, i'm balvinder gill. i was a sub—postmaster until i was wrongly suspended by the post office and made bankrupt. what does the promise to clear and compensate victims of the post office scandal mean for me? balvinder gill is here along with four other subpostmasters. they'll give their reaction live tonight to today's news that they will finally be cleared — but will everyone be helped? the minister responsible tells us the budget for compensation is £1 billion. is he sorry it's taken so long?

it's terrible, i apologise to all those people, i think over 60 people, and this has been going on for over 20 years, probably 2a, 25 years now. who does he think should pay the bill — taxpayers or fujitsu, who delivered the faulty horizon software? plus tonight, the man who was employed by the post office to investigate horizon software — and who found it faulty as far back as 2013. good evening. �*it feels like theft — but it was more like systematic abuse�* — the words of this postmaster describing how he says he was treated by the post office. systematic abuse — jst let those words sink in — just let those words sink in — by the government—owned, the taxpayer—owned post office. it pursued postmasters — wrongly accusing 736 of them of theft, false accouting and fraud. tonight we'll hear balvinder�*s story in full — he was sectioned three times

in the years that followed and like so many others, his story is unbelievable — but it happened. and we'll get the reaction from all these former post office branch managers to what the government announced today — which was that it would �*clear and compensate�* victims of the post office scandal in england and wales. but what about those who don't have a conviction to overturn, whose lives were still trashed? welcome, all of you. thank you so much for being with us on newsnight and talking to our audience. please do introduce yourselves. my audience. please do introduce yourselves-— audience. please do introduce yourselves. audience. please do introduce ourselves. g . ., ., yourselves. my name is shazia, i was a postmaster— yourselves. my name is shazia, i was a postmaster from _ yourselves. my name is shazia, i was a postmaster from 2009 _ yourselves. my name is shazia, i was a postmaster from 2009 to _ yourselves. my name is shazia, i was a postmaster from 2009 to 2016. - yourselves. my name is shazia, i was a postmaster from 2009 to 2016. i i a postmaster from 2009 to 2016. i was hounded and bullied out of my post offices. i was so proud to serve the people of the newcastle west end. . ~ serve the people of the newcastle west end. ., ~ ,, serve the people of the newcastle west end. ., ~ i. ., serve the people of the newcastle west end. . ~' ,, ., , west end. thank you for being with us. thank west end. thank you for being with us- thank yom _ west end. thank you for being with us. thank you. hello. _ west end. thank you for being with us. thank you. hello. hello. - west end. thank you for being with us. thank you. hello. hello. i - west end. thank you for being with

us. thank you. hello. hello. i was. west end. thank you for being with | us. thank you. hello. hello. i was a us. thank you. hello. hello. iwas a postmaster— us. thank you. hello. hello. i was a postmaster from _ us. thank you. hello. hello. i was a postmaster from 2013 _ us. thank you. hello. hello. i was a postmaster from 2013 to _ us. thank you. hello. hello. i was a postmaster from 2013 to 2017, - us. thank you. hello. hello. i was a | postmaster from 2013 to 2017, when there _ postmaster from 2013 to 2017, when there was _ postmaster from 2013 to 2017, when there was an unannounced audit from there was an unannounced audit from the post _ there was an unannounced audit from the post office, who found a shortfall _ the post office, who found a shortfall ofjust over £57,500. i repaid — shortfall ofjust over £57,500. i repaid the — shortfall ofjust over £57,500. i repaid the money back within 48 hours. _ repaid the money back within 48 hours, hence the reason why i wasn't pursued _ hours, hence the reason why i wasn't pursued for— hours, hence the reason why i wasn't pursued for criminal convictions. hi, pursued for criminal convictions. hi. victoria _ pursued for criminal convictions. hi, victoria. i had two post offices in 2003 _ hi, victoria. i had two post offices in 2003 to— hi, victoria. i had two post offices in 2003 to 2004. _ hi, victoria. i had two post offices in 2003 to 2004. |_ hi, victoria. i had two post offices in 2003 to 2004. i had _ hi, victoria. i had two post offices in 2003 to 2004. i had just - hi, victoria. i had two post offices in 2003 to 2004. i had just got. in 2003 to 2004. i had just got married, — in 2003 to 2004. i had just got married, i_ in 2003 to 2004. i had just got married, i was— in 2003 to 2004. i had just got married, i was 23, _ in 2003 to 2004. i had just got married, iwas 23, i— in 2003 to 2004. i had just got married, i was 23, i had - in 2003 to 2004. i had just got married, iwas 23, i had my. in 2003 to 2004. i had just got. married, iwas 23, i had my whole future _ married, iwas 23, i had my whole future planned _ married, iwas 23, i had my whole future planned out— married, iwas 23, i had my whole future planned out for— married, iwas 23, i had my whole future planned out for me, - married, iwas 23, i had my whole future planned out for me, and i. future planned out for me, and i was suddenly— future planned out for me, and i was suddenly terminated _ future planned out for me, and i was suddenly terminated and _ future planned out for me, and i was suddenly terminated and pursued . future planned out for me, and i wasj suddenly terminated and pursued for a debt— suddenly terminated and pursued for a debt of— suddenly terminated and pursued for a debt of £180,000, _ suddenly terminated and pursued for a debt of £180,000, which _ suddenly terminated and pursued for a debt of £180,000, which has - a debt of £180,000, which has haunted — a debt of £180,000, which has haunted rne _ a debt of £180,000, which has haunted me for— a debt of £180,000, which has haunted me for the _ a debt of £180,000, which has haunted me for the following . a debt of £180,000, which has l haunted me for the following two decades— haunted me for the following two decades and _ haunted me for the following two decades and still— haunted me for the following two decades and still to _ haunted me for the following two decades and still to this - haunted me for the following two decades and still to this day- haunted me for the following two decades and still to this day is i haunted me for the following ton decades and still to this day is not cleared _ decades and still to this day is not cleared.- hello, _ decades and still to this day is not cleared. high. hello, victoria. - decades and still to this day is not cleared. high. hello, victoria. i. cleared. high. hello, victoria. i ran a post— cleared. high. hello, victoria. i ran a post office _ cleared. high. hello, victoria. i ran a post office in _ cleared. high. hello, victoria. i ran a post office in kent - cleared. high. hello, victoria. i ran a post office in kent from l cleared.- hello, victoria. i. ran a post office in kent from 1999

to 2005, and when the auditors came, and accused me of stealing £52,000, which was a shortfall, the data, all the documents they brought me is the horizon data. i did not do any kind of auditing with them, to be honest. they've removed everything from my shop, and from the branch, and... from there, i started the battle with the post office. they convicted me of stealing and then later false accounting because i pay back the money, and it was... iam accounting because i pay back the money, and it was... i am two years suspended sentence, and 200 hours community service.— suspended sentence, and 200 hours community service. heliiia. hello, my community service. hello. hello, my name isiulie. _ community service. hello. hello, my name isiulie. 1— community service. hello. hello, my name is julie, i run _ community service. hello. hello, my name is julie, i run my _ community service. hello. hello, my name is julie, i run my post - community service. hello. hello, my name is julie, i run my post office i name isjulie, i run my post office from _ name isjulie, i run my post office from 1996— name isjulie, i run my post office

from 1996 to 2021, but my family history— from 1996 to 2021, but my family history with the post office goes back much further. in fact, to 1847, when _ back much further. in fact, to 1847, when my— back much further. in fact, to 1847, when my great—great—grandfather was the first _ when my great—great—grandfather was the first postmaster. what i'd like to talk— the first postmaster. what i'd like to talk about is my final audit, which — to talk about is my final audit, which was _ to talk about is my final audit, which was in 2021, because post office _ which was in 2021, because post office so — which was in 2021, because post office so that the system is robust, that the _ office so that the system is robust, that the current horizon system is vastly— that the current horizon system is vastly different from the generic one, _ vastly different from the generic one. and — vastly different from the generic one. and i— vastly different from the generic one, and i found that nothing had changed — one, and i found that nothing had changed in— one, and i found that nothing had changed in 2021. the auditors came in, changed in 2021. the auditors came in. my— changed in 2021. the auditors came in, my manager said, excuse me a moment, — in, my manager said, excuse me a moment, and _ in, my manager said, excuse me a moment, and stepped outside and left me alone _ moment, and stepped outside and left me alone in _ moment, and stepped outside and left me alone in the office with the two auditors _ me alone in the office with the two auditors. this was after the office had been — auditors. this was after the office had been closed, during the pandemic. they found a shortfall of £1970. _ pandemic. they found a shortfall of £1970, which they said, if i didn't settie _ £1970, which they said, if i didn't settle the — £1970, which they said, if i didn't settle the accounts i would not be able to _ settle the accounts i would not be able to retire. it was only when i joined _ able to retire. it was only when i joined the — able to retire. it was only when i joined the inquiry that the post office — joined the inquiry that the post office sent written confirmation they were not going to pursue me for that money — they were not going to pursue me for that money. my reasons for being on

this programme today is to explain about— this programme today is to explain about horizon, that it's still going on, about horizon, that it's still going on. that— about horizon, that it's still going on, that certainly when i had my office _ on, that certainly when i had my office post — on, that certainly when i had my office post 2016, still had issues with the — office post 2016, still had issues with the pin pad, the screen freezing, _ with the pin pad, the screen freezing, parodies, ineffectual helpline, so in my mind nothing has changed _ helpline, so in my mind nothing has changed -- — helpline, so in my mind nothing has changed. —— power outages, ineffectual helpline. gk, changed. -- power outages, ineffectual helpline. ok, thank you for bein: ineffectual helpline. ok, thank you for being here _ ineffectual helpline. ok, thank you for being here and _ ineffectual helpline. ok, thank you for being here and giving _ ineffectual helpline. ok, thank you for being here and giving your- ineffectual helpline. ok, thank you | for being here and giving your time. i want to ask you how to's news, which the government described as unprecedented, mps introducing a law that will overturn convictions that have been handed down by the courts, how it is going to affect you. balvinder. how it is going to affect you. balvinder-— how it is going to affect you. balvinder. personally there's certain things _ balvinder. personally there's certain things that _ balvinder. personally there's certain things that were - balvinder. personally there's certain things that were still| certain things that were still missing on a very personal note, i didn't see anything about bankruptcy, there hasn't really been any update about people who potential, if they were to get any redress for money which is taken from them or restoring their life

back to what it was, there's people out there who are actually still locked in a situation where that money would go back to the insolvency service and wouldn't be able to get released to them. the government were doing some work and credit to the announcements and everything that is now speeded up, and kevin hollinrake and certainly the announcement, you can see people are working to get these things done very fast, and we are a patient to a degree. but wejust very fast, and we are a patient to a degree. but we just want to see that these obstacles again or not put in a way, that this process needs to flow now, because there is literally, i think the public pressure don't make itjust into an election bargaining tool, give us the realjustice and give us the real redress. we're not asking for changing money. there is a parallel universe where we live normal lives, put us back on the track, i would ask. you're nodding in agreement with that. ' :: :: , ask. you're nodding in agreement with that.- how _ ask. you're nodding in agreement

with that.- how are - ask. you're nodding in agreement with that.- how are you - with that. 100%. how are you affected by — with that. 10096. how are you affected by today, _ with that. 10096. how are you affected by today, if - with that. 10096. how are you affected by today, if at - with that. 10096. how are you affected by today, if at all? . with that. 10096. how are you affected by today, if at all? itj with that. 10096. how are you l affected by today, if at all? it is welcome news _ affected by today, if at all? it is welcome news but _ affected by today, if at all? it is welcome news but i _ affected by today, if at all? it is welcome news but i do welcome it with a bit— welcome news but i do welcome it with a bit of caution. the welcome news but i do welcome it with a bit of caution.— with a bit of caution. the 555, that's the _ with a bit of caution. the 555, that's the 555 _ with a bit of caution. the 555, that's the 555 former - that's the 555 former sub—postmasters who took this group legal action against the post office in 2018 and many convictions were overturned but a lot of the 555 did not have convictions at all, did they? one of those, and it means, for example, you have been offered today and up front of £75,000. that's correct. is today and up front of £75,000. that's correct.— today and up front of £75,000. i that's correct._ it that's correct. is that enough? it doesnt that's correct. is that enough? it doesn't even _ that's correct. is that enough? it doesn't even touch _ that's correct. is that enough? it doesn't even touch the _ that's correct. is that enough? it doesn't even touch the surface, i doesn't even touch the surface, doesn't — doesn't even touch the surface, doesn't even touch the surface, doesn't even touch the sides. absolutely not.— doesn't even touch the sides. absolutely not. doesn't even touch the sides. absolutel not. �* , ., absolutely not. and why do you say that? because _ absolutely not. and why do you say that? because it _ absolutely not. and why do you say that? because it is _ absolutely not. and why do you say that? because it is a _ absolutely not. and why do you say that? because it is a lot _ absolutely not. and why do you say that? because it is a lot of - absolutely not. and why do you say that? because it is a lot of money. | that? because it is a lot of money. it is, i agree, and that? because it is a lot of money. it is, iagree, and i that? because it is a lot of money. it is, i agree, and i will it is, iagree, and i will commit, it is— it is, iagree, and i will commit, it isa— it is, iagree, and i will commit, it isa start, _ it is, iagree, and i will commit, it is a start, but it no touches the size of— it is a start, but it no touches the size of what i have lost. the consequential costs of this, i lost my pension, for example, my health care, _ my pension, for example, my health care, att— my pension, for example, my health care, all of— my pension, for example, my health care, all of these things as a consequence of the action. but like batvinder— consequence of the action. but like balvinder says, put us back in the

position— balvinder says, put us back in the position we — balvinder says, put us back in the position we would have been in, had we not _ position we would have been in, had we not been — position we would have been in, had we not been affected. and position we would have been in, had we not been affected.— we not been affected. and is it ossible we not been affected. and is it possible for — we not been affected. and is it possible for you _ we not been affected. and is it possible for you to _ we not been affected. and is it possible for you to estimate i we not been affected. and is it possible for you to estimate a | we not been affected. and is it - possible for you to estimate a sum, come up with a figure of how much it has cost you over the years? i come up with a figure of how much it has cost you over the years?- has cost you over the years? i think i would has cost you over the years? i think i would have _ has cost you over the years? i think i would have to _ has cost you over the years? i think i would have to sit _ has cost you over the years? i think i would have to sit with _ has cost you over the years? i think i would have to sit with somebody l i would have to sit with somebody very much— i would have to sit with somebody very much more intelligent than myself— very much more intelligent than myself to— very much more intelligent than myself to work that figure had, but it is definitely not £75,000. 30 myself to work that figure had, but it is definitely not £75,000. 50 it it is definitely not £75,000. so it sounds like _ it is definitely not £75,000. so it sounds like you're _ it is definitely not £75,000. so it sounds like you're not _ it is definitely not £75,000. 5r it sounds like you're not going to take that, you're going to go through the longer assessment process even though it will delay any figure? 1 though it will delay any figure? i mean, i haven't made any decision yet. mean, i haven't made any decision yet “it _ mean, i haven't made any decision yet i'rniust— mean, i haven't made any decision yet. i'm just observing sort of what happened — yet. i'm just observing sort of what happened today, victoria, but it is promising — happened today, victoria, but it is promising. but we have been down this road _ promising. but we have been down this road before. we need implementation now. and back up what they are _ implementation now. and back up what they are telling us, if they really are listening.— they are telling us, if they really are listeninu. ., �* ., ., ., are listening. you're all nodding at that, we are listening. you're all nodding at that. we need _ are listening. you're all nodding at that, we need implementation, . that, we need implementation, because you have been given false hope before, and it was described to me as, you know, it's like one step forward but two steps back. how confident are you that it will

actually happen now?- confident are you that it will actually happen now? they need to make it happen. — actually happen now? they need to make it happen, especially - actually happen now? they need to make it happen, especially with - actually happen now? they need to | make it happen, especially with the drama _ make it happen, especially with the drama that — make it happen, especially with the drama that was _ make it happen, especially with the drama that was aired _ make it happen, especially with the drama that was aired on _ make it happen, especially with the drama that was aired on new - make it happen, especially with thej drama that was aired on new year's day, and _ drama that was aired on new year's day, and that's— drama that was aired on new year's day, and that's what's _ drama that was aired on new year's day, and that's what's really- day, and that's what's really brought— day, and that's what's really brought the _ day, and that's what's really brought the 555, _ day, and that's what's really brought the 555, have - day, and that's what's really. brought the 555, have actually really — brought the 555, have actually really brought _ brought the 555, have actually really brought this _ brought the 555, have actually really brought this together. i brought the 555, have actually- really brought this together. they are going — really brought this together. they are going to— really brought this together. they are going to make _ really brought this together. they are going to make it— really brought this together. they are going to make it happen - really brought this together. they are going to make it happen for. are going to make it happen for everybody— are going to make it happen for everybody else _ are going to make it happen for everybody else as _ are going to make it happen for everybody else as well. - are going to make it happen for everybody else as well. so - are going to make it happen for everybody else as well. so we i are going to make it happen for- everybody else as well. so we need to all— everybody else as well. so we need to all collectively _ everybody else as well. so we need to all collectively make _ everybody else as well. so we need to all collectively make sure - everybody else as well. so we need to all collectively make sure that i to all collectively make sure that we push, — to all collectively make sure that we push, especially— to all collectively make sure that we push, especially with - to all collectively make sure that we push, especially with the - we push, especially with the surrounding _ we push, especially with the surrounding public, - we push, especially with the surrounding public, to - we push, especially with thej surrounding public, to push, we push, especially with the i surrounding public, to push, to we push, especially with the - surrounding public, to push, to get the government— surrounding public, to push, to get the government to _ surrounding public, to push, to get the government to sort _ surrounding public, to push, to get the government to sort out - surrounding public, to push, to get the government to sort out what . surrounding public, to push, to get. the government to sort out what they have done _ the government to sort out what they have done wrong _ the government to sort out what they have done wrong. itidbit— the government to sort out what they have done wrong.— have done wrong. why do you see what the government _ have done wrong. why do you see what the government have _ have done wrong. why do you see what the government have done _ have done wrong. why do you see what the government have done wrong? - the government have done wrong? because the post office is owned by the government. it is because the post office is owned by the government.— the government. it is the sole shareholder _ the government. it is the sole shareholder of _ the government. it is the sole shareholder of the _ the government. it is the sole shareholder of the post - the government. it is the sole| shareholder of the post office. the government. it is the sole - shareholder of the post office. the government _ shareholder of the post office. government is the sole shareholder of the post office.- government is the sole shareholder, yeah. government is the sole shareholder, eah. ., , government is the sole shareholder, eah. . , ., , yeah. ultimately. ultimately the buck stops— yeah. ultimately. ultimately the buck stops with _ yeah. ultimately. ultimately the buck stops with them. _ yeah. ultimately. ultimately the buck stops with them. howedes| buck stops with them. howedes toda 's buck stops with them. howedes today's news — buck stops with them. howedes today's news affect _ buck stops with them. howedes today's news affect you? - buck stops with them. howedes today's news affect you? i - buck stops with them. howedes today's news affect you? i have | today's news affect you? i have mixed feelings _ today's news affect you? i have mixed feelings as _ today's news affect you? i have mixed feelings as well, - today's news affect you? i have | mixed feelings as well, because today's news affect you? i have i mixed feelings as well, because i think there are so many problems

with the 5—55, think there are so many problems with the 5-55, i think there are so many problems with the 5—55, i was part of the 5-55 with the 5—55, i was part of the 5—55 as well, and... what mag you had your conviction overturned in 2021 overturn, and are still a lot of problems where they are trying to stigmatise the victims. i was one of the three they called the public interest. and up until now i don't understand what that means. i'm waiting for them to explain it properly because if it's anything to do with how much they would have spent retrying my case, they've been spending money since 2018, when they went to court. so how much more would it have cost them to retry my case? and get me to the right place? julie, you talked about an audit in your post office in 2021, so it years ago. your post office in 2021, so it years ago-— your post office in 2021, so it years ago-- and - your post office in 2021, so it years ago. yes. and they found a short. years ago. yes. and they found a short- cyan _ years ago. yes. and they found a short- cyan yes- _ years ago. yes. and they found a short. cyan yes. even _ years ago. yes. and they found a short. cyan yes. even though the post office as horizon is more robust, but they have said that

before. how has this affected your life? ., , before. how has this affected your life? . , , ., ., ., life? has this... you mean the whole post office — life? has this... you mean the whole post office scandal? _ life? has this... you mean the whole post office scandal? yes. _ life? has this... you mean the whole post office scandal? yes. is - post office scandal? yes. is obviously — post office scandal? yes. is obviously reputational - post office scandal? 1's; is obviously reputational damage. post office scandal? 1s; is obviously reputational damage. for exampie _ obviously reputational damage. for example village fetes and things, if you go— example village fetes and things, if you go to _ example village fetes and things, if you go to anything, they all want to know— you go to anything, they all want to know what— you go to anything, they all want to know what happened with the post office, _ know what happened with the post office, sometimes you are advised not to— office, sometimes you are advised not to go— office, sometimes you are advised not to go to things because people will talk— not to go to things because people will talk about the post office. and, _ will talk about the post office. and. yes, _ will talk about the post office. and, yes, it was very harrowing experience. _ and, yes, it was very harrowing experience, that final audit, and having _ experience, that final audit, and having that hanging over me, because as i having that hanging over me, because as i said. _ having that hanging over me, because as i said. i_ having that hanging over me, because as i said, i was brought up with the post office, — as i said, i was brought up with the post office, i knew how to run a post _ post office, i knew how to run a post office _ post office, i knew how to run a post office i knew all these people. one thing _ post office i knew all these people. one thing perhaps your viewers are not aware _ one thing perhaps your viewers are not aware of is that when i became sub—postmaster in 1996, the post office _ sub—postmaster in 1996, the post office were actively encouraging postmasters to apply to become magistrates. you know, the irony of that _ magistrates. you know, the irony of that. .

magistrates. you know, the irony of that. , , that. yes. bal, you... uber section to three times _ that. yes. bal, you... uber section to three times in _ that. yes. bal, you... uber section to three times in the _ that. yes. bal, you... uber section to three times in the years - that. yes. bal, you... uber section to three times in the years that. to three times in the years that followed the post office pursuing you. —— you were sectioned three times. i wonder if you can give the audience a little insight into what that was like.— that was like. yes, of course. initially the _ that was like. yes, of course. initially the trauma _ that was like. yes, of course. initially the trauma of - that was like. yes, of course. initially the trauma of what i initially the trauma of what happened that day, that will always live with me. like com, you can forgive but you cannot forget what happened. they turned my life upside down, and after that day, i became very numb and slowly deteriorated into a shadow of myself, i felt very numb, very low, there were times when i had suicidal thoughts, had an impulse to do something, may be, and then i would have the second sought to counter that and managed to get through, but they were so many cracks in my relationship with my wife and in my family relationships, i couldn't attend weddings or occasions, it really affected me. over time i was harbouring this depression and it developed into than episodes of mania, and i had

some disastrous episodes of mania, each time being sectioned, i spent my 40th birthday in a mental hospital. i remember being asked, just to speak to the doctors there, and i said very specifically that the government run organisation, the post office, had been pursuing me for many years and it was recorded as delusions of grandeur. filth. for many years and it was recorded as delusions of grandeur.— as delusions of grandeur. oh, my god. as delusions of grandeur. oh, my god- actually _ as delusions of grandeur. oh, my god. actually it _ as delusions of grandeur. oh, my god. actually it was _ as delusions of grandeur. oh, my god. actually it was reality, - as delusions of grandeur. oh, my god. actually it was reality, it - as delusions of grandeur. oh, my| god. actually it was reality, it was the truth. ., , ., god. actually it was reality, it was the truth. . , ., , ., the truth. there was a ten year eriod the truth. there was a ten year period op _ the truth. there was a ten year period up until _ the truth. there was a ten year period up until the _ the truth. there was a ten year period up until the f _ the truth. there was a ten year period up until the f as - the truth. there was a ten year period up until the f as i - the truth. there was a ten year period up until the f as i came period up until thejf as i came into my domain of understanding... that thejustice for that the justice for sub—postmasters. that the justice for sub-postmasters. that the justice for sub-ostmasters. �* . sub-postmasters. alan bates's organisations _ sub-postmasters. alan bates's organisations that _ sub-postmasters. alan bates's organisations that he _ sub-postmasters. alan bates's organisations that he set - sub-postmasters. alan bates's organisations that he set up, i sub-postmasters. alan bates's organisations that he set up, itj sub-postmasters. alan bates's - organisations that he set up, it was 2013 when i reached out to them, read the e—mail to myself, really it was a time of despair, and looking for answers, and watching the programme and seeing also how actually people came together, i remember those days, it's really, really... it's difficult to... we live... i live in a cautious way, my life is very restricted now, i have

to be very careful how much i take on because i don't want to have that fear of going into another episode. so you have to restructure your whole life. and you can't... i so you have to restructure your whole life. and you can't... whole life. and you can't. .. i want to ask you. _ whole life. and you can't. .. i want to ask you. how — whole life. and you can't. .. i want to ask you, how are _ whole life. and you can't. .. i want to ask you, how are you _ whole life. and you can't. .. i want - to ask you, how are you compensated for being sectioned three times? what is that sum of money? it's... you know, the thing is there are people who have suffered worse, it's a very painful thing to think, and i would like to think we are survivors, not victims, we are survivors, not victims, we are survivors, because some of us didn't survive this, you know, so it's a very painful thing to think about, and the fact that we are here today, we need to make sure we are doing our best to tell our trees, that people understand and never forget these people. these people, they were genuine people who were serving their community, just how we set out to be. on the subject of serving your communities, which you have all done in different parts of the country.

when things started to go wrong for you, and you round three successful post office franchises, and you saw initially £2000 disappear on your computer system while you are on the operator system asking for help, how did your community treat you? because they thought you were a criminal? ., , , because they thought you were a criminal? . . , ., criminal? regrettably, the way we were treated. _ criminal? regrettably, the way we were treated, it _ criminal? regrettably, the way we were treated, it had _ criminal? regrettably, the way we were treated, it had a _ criminal? regrettably, the way we were treated, it had a negative - were treated, it had a negative effect — were treated, it had a negative effect because it was properties of our community who decided that i was a thief— our community who decided that i was a thief and _ our community who decided that i was a thief and therefore i needed to be assaulted _ a thief and therefore i needed to be assaulted with my children by my side. _ assaulted with my children by my side, and — assaulted with my children by my side, and eggs and flour were thrown at m3, _ side, and eggs and flour were thrown at me. and _ side, and eggs and flour were thrown at me. and i— side, and eggs and flour were thrown at me, and i was assaulted in the street— at me, and i was assaulted in the street with — at me, and i was assaulted in the street with my children there. so as a result— street with my children there. so as a result of— street with my children there. so as a result of that, again, it is consequences. how do you put a price on that? _ consequences. how do you put a price on that? your— consequences. how do you put a price on that? your dignity, your

reputation? i worked so hard as a single _ reputation? i worked so hard as a single parent to build up businesses for my— single parent to build up businesses for my children's future and for the post office — for my children's future and for the post office to come in, and it angers — post office to come in, and it angers me _ post office to come in, and it angers me when people call them auditors— angers me when people call them auditors because they really were not. auditors because they really were not they — auditors because they really were not. theyjust came in and balanced against _ not. theyjust came in and balanced against what was on the screen, and yes, against what was on the screen, and yes1victoria1— against what was on the screen, and yes, victoria, it was absolutely horrendous, for myself and my children — horrendous, for myself and my children. ~ ., ., ., horrendous, for myself and my children. ., ., ., ., ,, horrendous, for myself and my children. ~ ., ., ., ., ,, ., children. we are going to talk more and we are — children. we are going to talk more and we are going — children. we are going to talk more and we are going to _ children. we are going to talk more and we are going to hear— children. we are going to talk more and we are going to hear from - children. we are going to talk more and we are going to hear from the i and we are going to hearfrom the minister responsible, kevin hollinrake, who was standing up in the commons today. stay there. thank you so much for being with us. relax for a few minutes. rishi sunak says he will change the law to ensure those who have been convicted will be exonerated. how will that work? so this announcement today is all down to this group: the horizon compensation advisory board pictured today meeting the postal services minister kevin hollinrake. and there are four

stages to the plan which grew out of a recommendation they made last month. you can see that lord arbuthnot, he is portrayed in the drama, and he and kevinjones, they are the parliamentarians who have campaigned on this more than any other parliamentarian, and what we heard from the government today drew on the recommendation from this advisory board which includes two legal academics, and the recommendation the government has picked up basically has four core elements, so in the first place, as rishi sunak was saying, it will put right the wrongs of the past, overturned convictions, so what we will be seeing, as you were saying. we will be seeing legislators to overturn those post office horizon

convictions of 700 to 1000 people. second: there are a small number of postmasters who have lost appeals against their conviction. the government will decide in the coming days whether to include those in the scheme. third: once a conviction has been overturned people will be entitled to a one—off £600,000 payment or try and negotiate a higher payment. finally, a statement of innocence. it is widely accepted that there will be some people who were rightly convicted who will have it overturned, they will be entitled to that £600,000 payment, so to guard against that, you will have to make against that, you will have to make a statement of innocence, and that could work against you if evidence turns out that you were guilty of it. in the final place, scotland. this legislation today applies in england and wales, but humza yousaf,

the scottish first minister, he has been talking today about exploring ways in which this scheme could apply in scotland. and what our westminster campaign is saying this evening? they are happy, but they are taking nothing for granted, because this has been a very long time in coming, and they are working out what the headlines in papers could look like if it turns out that somebody who did commit an offence gets more than half £1 million, could that to public opinion against them? but their view is it is right to take that risk, and of course it was the recommendation of that cross—party advisory group to have that blanket overturning of those convictions. thank you very much. nick has just been telling us about scotland. in northern ireland sinn fein's vice—president michelle o'neill said she hopes those wrongly convicted

there will be swiftly cleared. i've been talking to kevin hollinrake, the minister responsible for postal affairs in the uk. i started by asking him how long it would be before people were exonerated, and how long it would take for the compensation to reach people. weeks. that's what we're hoping. how many weeks? we can't say how many weeks, because this legislation has to go through parliament. and that's there's no real fixed timescale for that because parliament decides. but we want to do this very quickly. so we think we can put a new law in place in weeks. and once people... this law will make sure that every single person who has been convicted as a result of horizon evidence, as a result of this scandal, their convictions will be set aside, will be overturned, and that opens the door immediately to compensation. and people have two choices at that point in time. they can go down a full assessment route for compensation for loss and for damage to other things such as reputation and health and relationships and all those things. but also the alternative

to that is they can take a very simple option, which is take a fixed sum award of £600,000, which is a much quicker process because people don't need to compile a full claim and assess the full claim. it can happen much more quickly. so people could be getting compensation in weeks a matter of weeks. 0k. so by weeks, to me, that's less than a month. is that fair? i can't say that, because as i say it's got to go through both houses and we're not totally in charge of the timescales. it depends on opposition parties and the lords and lots of things. sure, but you could do this in a day. there is precedent here. you think about omagh legislation after the omagh bombing, and i was saying, i'm not saying we can do it in a day, but of course, before we do that, we have to actually draft the legislation. we've got to get the legislation in the right place. we've got to talk to a lot of people, thejudiciary, of course, and the minister of justice. and he's got to go through a number

of different steps before we can draft that legislation, make sure it's in the right place. you said today it will mean an "honest postmaster", quote unquote, will have his or her conviction overturned. and they have to sign a statement, presumably essentially saying, i didn't steal anything, i didn't thieve anything, i didn't defraud the post office. i am honest. why are you making them do that? well, the reality is some of those people that are exonerated through this may have been guilty of an offence. we don't want to labour that point, but we do want to be clear about that point. it's possible that some of those people are actually guilty of something. so... but nevertheless it could be that we declare, effectively overturn convictions of guilty people. but i think that will be a minority at the worst case. and what this will do, of course, is give a route to compensation and to exoneration for hundreds of people so we think in the context of doing things, it's absolutely the right thing to do.

and certainly the people we're working with seem to feel that way too. what about those people who were forced or advised to plead guilty? they're going to be exonerated, too, by this new law. is that right? that's correct. yes, they are. 0k. the 555 former sub postmasters who brought the group lawsuit suing the post office. mostly they were non—criminal cases. what will they get? well, they've already got the route we've already set out. so the group litigation order you're talking about, what we announced today was that people in that scheme can apply... instead of going through this full assessment sceme, which takes time, they cannot go down the other route, which is a fixed sum award of £75,000. is it just £75,000?

£75,000. it was to everybody. you know, you think you've got to claim more than that, then you probably want to go down the full assessment route. for some people, they'll think that's a quick and easy way to draw a line under this and you get your compensation very quickly without having to submit a detailed claim. yeah. you say a quick and easy way to draw a line under it. i mean, it's it's not, is it? because for some it's been 20—odd years. i apologise for the time it's taken and there's lots of different reasons behind that because we are where we find ourselves. it's a quick and easier process from here. some subpostmasters had to file for bankruptcy because they literally couldn't afford to pay the post office money the post office said they owed them. what happens to people who had to file for bankruptcy? the position is, those people should be put back into the position they were before the detriment affected their lives. before the misconduct affected their lives. so if somebody�*s been made bankrupt because of the actions of the post office, those people

should be restored back to their financial health, their position they were in prior to that happening. i know you and one or two of your predecessors have been looking in detail at this issue for a period of time. it would be fair to say, though, wouldn't it, that it's the itv drama which has really forced you to take forced is completely the wrong word. it has accelerated what we've done, absolutely. we are public servants and we respond to public pressure, of course we do. we were looking to all these issues prior to that dramatisation being aired. the sum of £600,000 is something we mooted last autumn. it is something that we have been discussing with the advisory board for months. so it is not right to say that we wouldn't have done this, we have just done not right to say that we wouldn't have done this, we havejust done it at a greater pace, and i'm glad we've been able to do that, and it

shows the power of that dramatisation in the human story it is because it has accelerated some of the things we were planning to do. ., , ., , of the things we were planning to do. ., ,., , ., of the things we were planning to do. ., ,~ ., do. how sorry are you about the lenath of do. how sorry are you about the length of time _ do. how sorry are you about the length of time it _ do. how sorry are you about the length of time it has _ do. how sorry are you about the length of time it has taken? - do. how sorry are you about the - length of time it has taken? because as you know, dozens of people have died waiting forjustice. it is died waiting for 'ustice. it is terrible, and _ died waiting forjustice. it is terrible, and my— died waiting forjustice. it 3 terrible, and my apologies to all those people, i think over 60 people, and this has been going on for over 20 years, probably 24, 25 years now, and due to the tenacity and the commitment and the inspiration of people like alan bates and others, lee castleton, jo hamilton, we apologise to the mall. this government didn't create this mess, but this government is putting it right. mess, but this government is putting it riuht. ., . _, mess, but this government is putting it riuht. ., . ., ., it right. how much could the total compensation _ it right. how much could the total compensation bill _ it right. how much could the total compensation bill cost, _ it right. how much could the total compensation bill cost, do - it right. how much could the total compensation bill cost, do you i compensation bill cost, do you think? ., compensation bill cost, do you think? . , . , think? the maximum budget currently secified is think? the maximum budget currently specified is it— think? the maximum budget currently specified is £1 billion. _ think? the maximum budget currently specified is £1 billion. that _ think? the maximum budget currently specified is £1 billion. that is -

think? the maximum budget currently specified is £1 billion. that is not - specified is £1 billion. that is not a forecast, it is a budget, so it is a forecast, it is a budget, so it is a very significant figures. but! a forecast, it is a budget, so it is a very significant figures. and will the taxpayer _ a very significant figures. and will the taxpayer be — a very significant figures. and will the taxpayer be paying _ a very significant figures. and will the taxpayer be paying that, - a very significant figures. and will the taxpayer be paying that, or i a very significant figures. and will. the taxpayer be paying that, or will fujitsu be paying that? i the taxpayer be paying that, or will fujitsu be paying that?— fu'itsu be paying that? i very much it fujitsu be paying that? i very much it is ho -e fujitsu be paying that? i very much it is hope it — fujitsu be paying that? i very much it is hope it is _ fujitsu be paying that? i very much it is hope it is a _ fujitsu be paying that? i very much it is hope it is a combination - fujitsu be paying that? i very much it is hope it is a combination of- it is hope it is a combination of both, because of the taxpayer's responsibility here is being the sole shareholder of the post office, but we have a statutory inquiry at led by a high courtjudge, but we have a statutory inquiry at led bya high courtjudge, he but we have a statutory inquiry at led by a high courtjudge, he will be taking evidence later this year, and at that point in time, we will be able to identify exactly who is responsible, fujitsu were the providers of the horizon system in the first place, so if it can be shown that they were responsible and culpable, than i think it would be only right that anybody in that position share some of the financial cost of this. find

position share some of the financial cost of this-— cost of this. and in terms of accountability, _ cost of this. and in terms of accountability, you - cost of this. and in terms of accountability, you have - cost of this. and in terms of| accountability, you have just mentioned accountability, you havejust mentioned fujitsu. there are chief executives and chairmen at the post office and women who have gone on to otherjobs with bonuses and pensions intact. can you say to the same postmasters tonight and to the general public watching tonight that if they need to be held accountable they will be?— they will be? yes, absolutely. and by whatever _ they will be? yes, absolutely. and by whatever means. _ they will be? yes, absolutely. and by whatever means. we _ they will be? yes, absolutely. and by whatever means. we have - they will be? yes, absolutely. and by whatever means. we have to i they will be? yes, absolutely. and | by whatever means. we have to act within the law of course, but as well as the inquiry happening, our enforcement agencies, our people in charge of prosecutions in this country i'm sure are taking a very keen interest in the evidence coming to light as a result of the inquiry, but those are matters that clearly the police for example a completely independent of government, and nevertheless what i personally like to see individuals held to account for what happened to the people involved in this scandal? absolutely i would. �* .,

involved in this scandal? absolutely i would. . ., ., involved in this scandal? absolutely iwould. . ., ., , ., ~ i would. and one final question. are ou i would. and one final question. are you considering. _ i would. and one final question. are you considering, as _ i would. and one final question. are you considering, as sir— i would. and one final question. are you considering, as sir keir- i would. and one final question. are you considering, as sir keir starmer| you considering, as sir keir starmer called for earlier this week, taking away the power of the post office to pursue its own prosecutions? because as so many people have pointed out over so many years, it would appear to be a massive conflict of interest. to be a massive conflict of interest-— to be a massive conflict of interest. , , , ., ., , interest. yes, is the short answer. the ost interest. yes, is the short answer. the post office _ interest. yes, is the short answer. the post office hasn't _ interest. yes, is the short answer. the post office hasn't prosecuted i the post office hasn't prosecuted anybody since 2015, and i cannot see anybody since 2015, and i cannot see a situation where it would do that anyway. but the post office doesn't have a specific right of private prosecution. any person in the land and any company in the land has that right. what the justice secretary has said, they are questioning whether that is the right thing, certainly based upon what has happened near here, so there will be a body of work, and i'm sure the justice secretary will have more to say on this, on whether that general right of private prosecution should still stand in our society, and that is very significant question to be answered in that area.

mr hollinrake, thank you very much for talking to newsnight on the postmasters with us this evening. thank you very much. let me introduce you to ron warmington — managing director of second sight — the company hired in by the post office to look at its horizon computer system and investigate the subpostmaster complaints. thank you for being with us, i will ask you fellow guests for some reaction to what mr hall and ray had to say, julie? brute reaction to what mr hall and ray had to say. julie?— to say, julie? we don't know, we don't know _ to say, julie? we don't know, we don't know anything, _ to say, julie? we don't know, we don't know anything, really, - to say, julie? we don't know, we don't know anything, really, we i to say, julie? we don't know, we i don't know anything, really, we just get announcements, how do we know all these things? how can we trust what they're saying they're going to do, and why is it taking so long, why the discussions take so long? i also think people might be interested to know the post office has recently given a contract of £36 million to fidgety to extend the

horizon system until spring 2025. now, if you join the dots up, horizon, online, what happened with that, my expenses, and then horizon, whatever they decide to call it, is still going to be in operation till 2025. how do we know it's not got the same flaws the old systems had? yeah. there is a major breach of trust here. third may, how do you react to what kevin hollinrake said? i think they need to do a lot of thinking — i think they need to do a lot of thinking on this matter. —— i think they need to do a lot of thinking on this matter. -- te'u, what do you fl thinking on this matter. -- te'u, what do you think? i thinking on this matter. -- te'u, what do you think? "i thinking on this matter. -- te'u, what do you think? if they i thinking on this matter. -- teju, what do you think? if they don't| thinking on this matter. -- teju, i what do you think? if they don't get rid of horizon, _ what do you think? if they don't get rid of horizon, they _ what do you think? if they don't get rid of horizon, they will— what do you think? if they don't get rid of horizon, they will have - what do you think? if they don't get rid of horizon, they will have the i rid of horizon, they will have the same _ rid of horizon, they will have the same problems again. and especially when they— same problems again. and especially when they keep dividing every single sub—postmaster within that group, the script— sub—postmaster within that group, the script or that group, they needs to get— the script or that group, they needs to get it _ the script or that group, they needs to get it sorted out, and come to the public— to get it sorted out, and come to the public with something more tangible — the public with something more tangible that we can all rely on, notiust— tangible that we can all rely on, notjust promises.—

tangible that we can all rely on, notjust promises. sure. do you have confidence that _ notjust promises. sure. do you have confidence that any _ notjust promises. sure. do you have confidence that any senior _ confidence that any senior executives from either fujitsu or the post office, if they need to be brought to account, will be? what do you think? i brought to account, will be? what do ou think? 1' brought to account, will be? what do ou think? ~' , , . you think? i think with the public inuui you think? i think with the public inquiry that _ you think? i think with the public inquiry that is — you think? i think with the public inquiry that is currently - you think? i think with the public inquiry that is currently going i you think? i think with the public inquiry that is currently going on | inquiry that is currently going on and especially— inquiry that is currently going on and especially with _ inquiry that is currently going on and especially with the - inquiry that is currently going on - and especially with the metropolitan police _ and especially with the metropolitan police that _ and especially with the metropolitan police that are _ and especially with the metropolitan police that are involved, _ and especially with the metropolitan police that are involved, because i police that are involved, because the metropolitan _ police that are involved, because the metropolitan police - police that are involved, because the metropolitan police have - police that are involved, because the metropolitan police have to i the metropolitan police have to gather— the metropolitan police have to gather evidence _ the metropolitan police have to gather evidence to _ the metropolitan police have to gather evidence to take - the metropolitan police have to gather evidence to take it - the metropolitan police have to gather evidence to take it to i the metropolitan police have to| gather evidence to take it to the cps for— gather evidence to take it to the cps for charging _ gather evidence to take it to the cps for charging advice, - gather evidence to take it to the cps for charging advice, i - gather evidence to take it to the cps for charging advice, i think. cps for charging advice, i think there _ cps for charging advice, i think there is— cps for charging advice, i think there is going _ cps for charging advice, i think there is going to— cps for charging advice, i think there is going to be _ cps for charging advice, i think there is going to be individualsj there is going to be individuals that are — there is going to be individuals that are going _ there is going to be individuals that are going to _ there is going to be individuals that are going to be _ there is going to be individuals that are going to be held - there is going to be individuals that are going to be held to i that are going to be held to account, _ that are going to be held to account, definitely. - that are going to be held to account, definitely.- account, definitely. bal, do you have confidence? _ account, definitely. bal, do you have confidence? yes, - account, definitely. bal, do you have confidence? yes, to - account, definitely. bal, do you have confidence? yes, to a - account, definitely. bal, do you i have confidence? yes, to a degree account, definitely. bal, do you - have confidence? yes, to a degree i have confidence? yes, to a degree i have been following _ have confidence? yes, to a degree i have been following the _ have confidence? yes, to a degree i have been following the inquiry - have been following the inquiry closely, and my only concern is... but i think without all the pressure, and certainly with paula vennells returning the cbe, i think it will be more open, with the public outcry, a more open approach to the questions at the inquiry. i have to say, i commend kevin hollinrake, i think he has been pushing very hard. i think people do

sometime deserve credit. he has inherited that through various governments and i think he deserves some credit, and yourself also, for representing us so well. flat some credit, and yourself also, for representing us so well.— some credit, and yourself also, for representing us so well. not at all, that's ourjob- _ representing us so well. not at all, that's ourjob. ron _ representing us so well. not at all, that's ourjob. ron warmington, i representing us so well. not at all, i that's ourjob. ron warmington, you found the horizon system as far back as 2013 was faulty, unreliable, dodgy. and that was an interim report will do when you presented that the post office, who had hired you to investigate horizon, what did they do? br; you to investigate horizon, what did the do? �* , . you to investigate horizon, what did the do? j ., they do? by that point we were startin: they do? by that point we were starting to _ they do? by that point we were starting to find _ they do? by that point we were starting to find particularly - they do? by that point we were starting to find particularly my | starting to find particularly my colleague ian henderson was starting to find _ colleague ian henderson was starting to find pretty odd material in the papers _ to find pretty odd material in the papers that were being submitted. the agreement had been, nothing would _ the agreement had been, nothing would be — the agreement had been, nothing would be held back. second sight was off the _ would be held back. second sight was off the leash, we can look at whatever— off the leash, we can look at whatever we liked and nothing would be withheld. even privileged or confidential documents were to be given— confidential documents were to be given to _ confidential documents were to be given to us — confidential documents were to be given to us and that is what had happened. 0f given to us and that is what had happened. of course as soon as we started _ happened. of course as soon as we started to _

happened. of course as soon as we started to find material that answered the key question that the ministers _ answered the key question that the ministers had asked, which is, look out for— ministers had asked, which is, look out for any, — ministers had asked, which is, look out for any, anything that looks remotely— out for any, anything that looks remotely like wrongful prosecution conduct, _ remotely like wrongful prosecution conduct, and we were finding that, then there — conduct, and we were finding that, then there were staff changes and cooperation reversed, frankly. gk, cooperation reversed, frankly. ok, so that you — cooperation reversed, frankly. ok, so that you completed cooperation reversed, frankly. ii, so that you completed your report and presented that final report in 2015, what did the post office do then? ~ ., _, , , then? well, of course, in between those neck — then? well, of course, in between those neck exercises _ then? well, of course, in between those neck exercises there - then? well, of course, in between those neck exercises there was i then? well, of course, in between those neck exercises there was a i those neck exercises there was a second _ those neck exercises there was a second stage, which was the mediation scheme. we carried out deep _ mediation scheme. we carried out deep investigations into 140 cases and written 140 reports. when we finalised _ and written 140 reports. when we finalised our final report, we still had some — finalised our final report, we still had some of those individual cases, including _ had some of those individual cases, including some of the ones we have mentioned — including some of the ones we have mentioned here, to review. so we had to produce _ mentioned here, to review. so we had to produce a _ mentioned here, to review. so we had to produce a final report before we'd _ to produce a final report before we'd even _ to produce a final report before we'd even finished the work. and

then— we'd even finished the work. and then all— we'd even finished the work. and then all hell broke loose. what do you mean? — then all hell broke loose. what do you mean? we were fired. your fired? more than that. _ you mean? we were fired. your fired? more than that, the _ you mean? we were fired. your fired? more than that, the entire _ you mean? we were fired. your fired? more than that, the entire mediation i more than that, the entire mediation scheme _ more than that, the entire mediation scheme exploded. alan bates was told it was _ scheme exploded. alan bates was told it was to _ scheme exploded. alan bates was told it was to be _ scheme exploded. alan bates was told it was to be discontinued and... why were ou it was to be discontinued and... why were you fired? _ it was to be discontinued and... why were you fired? i _ it was to be discontinued and... why were you fired? i don't _ it was to be discontinued and... why were you fired? i don't know. - it was to be discontinued and... why were you fired? i don't know. why i were you fired? i don't know. why do ou think? were you fired? i don't know. why do you think? would _ were you fired? i don't know. why do you think? would have _ were you fired? i don't know. why do you think? would have to _ were you fired? i don't know. why do you think? would have to ask- were you fired? i don't know. why do you think? would have to ask the - you think? would have to ask the post office- _ you think? would have to ask the post office. it — you think? would have to ask the post office. it was _ post office. it was coincidental that shortly before the plug was pulled _ that shortly before the plug was pulled on the mediation scheme, my colleague _ pulled on the mediation scheme, my colleague and i had been trying to pick up _ colleague and i had been trying to pick up from where we left off prior to the _ pick up from where we left off prior to the mediation scheme, which is to look deeply— to the mediation scheme, which is to look deeply into matters like the suspense — look deeply into matters like the suspense accounts and other allegations that had been made that seemed _ allegations that had been made that seemed to be supported by the cases that we _ seemed to be supported by the cases that we had looked at, and particular, in particular our desire to dig _ particular, in particular our desire to dig into — particular, in particular our desire to dig into the suspense accounts, into which— to dig into the suspense accounts, into which we suspected some of the

funds— into which we suspected some of the funds that _ into which we suspected some of the funds that had been, that ought to have been— funds that had been, that ought to have been repaid to the postmasters had found _ have been repaid to the postmasters had found its way and from there, of course, _ had found its way and from there, of course, it _ had found its way and from there, of course, it found its way eventually into the _ course, it found its way eventually into the profit and loss account of the post — into the profit and loss account of the post office. 30, into the profit and loss account of the post office.— the post office. so, i mean, i'm lad the post office. so, i mean, i'm glad you've _ the post office. so, i mean, i'm glad you've answered _ the post office. so, i mean, i'm glad you've answered that, - the post office. so, i mean, i'm glad you've answered that, that | the post office. so, i mean, i'm - glad you've answered that, that was my next question. it came up, obviously, in the drama, jo hamilton askeditin obviously, in the drama, jo hamilton asked it in reality, and they reflected in the drama. all these people, your some of them, you paid thousands back, you know, what did you thousands back, you know, what did y°u pay thousands back, you know, what did you pay back in 48 hours, 57 grand or something?— or something? 57,500. you borrowed from relatives? _ or something? 57,500. you borrowed from relatives? yes. _ or something? 57,500. you borrowed from relatives? yes. that _ or something? 57,500. you borrowed from relatives? yes. that went - or something? 57,500. you borrowed from relatives? yes. that went into i from relatives? yes. that went into post office — from relatives? yes. that went into post office profits, _ from relatives? yes. that went into post office profits, which _ from relatives? yes. that went into post office profits, which is - from relatives? yes. that went into post office profits, which is owned | post office profits, which is owned by the government, is owned by the taxpayer, the taxpayer will now be paying your conversation, it's not like perversely, it finished up in my pocket and taxpayers, as reduction in my pocket and taxpayers, as reduction— reduction in the rosses that would make losses _ reduction in the rosses that would make losses or _ reduction in the rosses that would make losses or increase _ reduction in the rosses that would make losses or increase in - reduction in the rosses that would make losses or increase in the - make losses or increase in the profits — make losses or increase in the profits of— make losses or increase in the profits of the post office. let me read the statements, _ profits of the post office. let me read the statements, we - profits of the post office. let me read the statements, we set - profits of the post office. let me read the statements, we set up i profits of the post office. let me |

read the statements, we set up a public inquiry to find out what went wrong in the past and establish to build a ability for it, we can to right all wrongs as wrongs as quickly as possible. at the post office and government are committed to providing full, fair and final composition for the people affected. fujitsu say in a statement, the card post office horizon it statutory inquiry is examining complex events stretching back over 20 years. to understand who knew what when and what they did with that knowledge. the inquiry has reinforced the devastating impact on postmasters' lives and that of their families, and fujitsu has apologised for its role in their suffering. is and fujitsu has apologised for its role in their suffering.— role in their suffering. is that enough? _ role in their suffering. is that enough? no- _ role in their suffering. is that enough? no. no. _ role in their suffering. is that enough? no. no. anybodyi role in their suffering. is that i enough? no. no. anybody can apologise. _ enough? no. no. anybody can apologise, anybody can say sorry, but if they don't mean it, if they don't do something positive, you know, to so that they acknowledge that they went wrong and what they did was wrong... especially when the are did was wrong... especially when they are still _ did was wrong... especially when they are still trying _ did was wrong... especially when they are still trying to _ did was wrong... especially when they are still trying to victimise i they are still trying to victimise some _ they are still trying to victimise some of— they are still trying to victimise some of the sub—postmasters. inciuding — some of the sub—postmasters. including me. you understand? that

to me _ including me. you understand? that to me doesn't make me see them in the bright _ to me doesn't make me see them in the bright light. 30 to me doesn't make me see them in the bright light-— the bright light. so you say there is a difference _ the bright light. so you say there is a difference between - the bright light. so you say there is a difference between the - the bright light. so you say there i is a difference between the words, the rhetoric and actually what's going on with some people. absolutely, absolutely. let me... where are — absolutely, absolutely. let me... where are you — absolutely, absolutely. let me... where are you there? _ absolutely, absolutely. let me... where are you there? let - absolutely, absolutely. let me... where are you there? let me - where are you there? let me introduce now a conservative peer and former mp, lord james arbuthnot, who you will know if you watch the drama, he has been campaigning on this issue for over decades and many of his constituents will know he has been campaigning after his constituent postmistress jo been campaigning after his constituent postmistressjo hamilton came to him for help in 2009 9p is a clip from the drama. 50 came to him for help in 2009 9p is a clip from the drama.— clip from the drama. so now if you re-declare — clip from the drama. so now if you re-declare everything _ clip from the drama. so now if you re-declare everything it _ clip from the drama. so now if you re-declare everything it will - re—declare everything it will bounce, ok? re-declare everything it will bounce, ok?— re-declare everything it will bounce, ok? , , ., , bounce, ok? this is so healthy, thank you- _ bounce, ok? this is so healthy, thank you. don't _ bounce, ok? this is so healthy, thank you. don't go _ bounce, ok? this is so healthy, thank you. don't go away, - bounce, ok? this is so healthy, thank you. don't go away, stay| bounce, ok? this is so healthy, - thank you. don't go away, stay with me until— thank you. don't go away, stay with me until i _ thank you. don't go away, stay with me until i have done it. —— this is so helpfui~ — me until i have done it. —— this is so helpfui~ i_ me until i have done it. —— this is so helpful. i got, it'sjust doubled right— so helpful. i got, it'sjust doubled right in— so helpful. i got, it'sjust doubled right in front of my eyes. now it says— right in front of my eyes. now it says i_ right in front of my eyes. now it says i am — right in front of my eyes. now it says i am £4000 down. and that literally happen. _ says i am £4000 down. and that literally happen. lord _ says i am £4000 down. and that literally happen. lord arbuthnot, thank you for talking to us this

evening. i wonder if i