wires, there is a property telephone wires, there is a property project manager who would oversee all of that. by the time it was done and he was up and running, my understanding was that everything was working correctly. that understanding was that everything was working correctly.— understanding was that everything was working correctly. that was your understanding _ was working correctly. that was your understanding i _ was working correctly. that was your understanding i know _ was working correctly. that was your understanding i know you _ was working correctly. that was your understanding i know you are - understanding i know you are carrying out an investigation into a very serious matter and you have requested from the national business support centre certain call logs, did you think about requesting colleagues from fujitsu? colleagues from fu'itsu? that's when my understanding — colleagues from fujitsu? that's when my understanding was _ colleagues from fujitsu? that's when my understanding was you _ colleagues from fujitsu? that's when my understanding was you request i colleagues from fujitsu? that's when my understanding was you request a | my understanding was you request a call logs and you get them all but there has been no calls to report any discrepancies on mr allen's in admissions. in any discrepancies on mr allen's in admissions-_ admissions. in terms of hardware problems. _ admissions. in terms of hardware problems. the — admissions. in terms of hardware problems, the nbsc _ admissions. in terms of hardware problems, the nbsc wasn't - admissions. in terms of hardware problems, the nbsc wasn't the l problems, the nbsc wasn't the correct helpline to call. are you saying you are not a bit of the difference between the two at the

time? i difference between the two at the time? ., �* ~' difference between the two at the time? ., �* ~ .,, time? i don't think i was, the call lous, time? i don't think i was, the call logs. one — time? i don't think i was, the call logs. one of _ time? i don't think i was, the call logs, one of the _ time? i don't think i was, the call logs, one of the other. _ time? i don't think i was, the call logs, one of the other. as - time? i don't think i was, the call. logs, one of the other. as discussed previously, we knew that horizon call logs come from fujitsu. can previously, we knew that horizon call logs come from fujitsu. call logs come from fu'itsu. can we lease call logs come from fu'itsu. can we please leek — call logs come from fu'itsu. can we please leele at h call logs come from fu'itsu. can we please look at the _ call logs come from fujitsu. can we please look at the next _ call logs come from fujitsu. can we please look at the next poll? - call logs come from fujitsu. can we please look at the next poll? this l please look at the next poll? this is an e—mail from yourself to andrew bolts dated 12th of december 2012. it's an e—mail from andrew bolts to you. this is to garethjenkins. it from andrew bolts to you. this is to gareth jenkins. it says, from andrew bolts to you. this is to garethjenkins. it says, i havejust spoken to the solicitor for grant allen, it says, i include an extract

from the interview in which he is trying to suggest it's an initial loss of £3000 and is attributable to lost data because of installation problems. are you able to comment on the scenario? ultimately we need to discredit this as an explanation that holds any water. he denies stealing the subsequent losses and may be blaming the system for those losses as well. do you think it was appropriate for andrew bolts to e—mail mrjenkins to say that ultimately we would need to discredit the defendants? that say that ultimately we would need to discredit the defendants?— discredit the defendants? that is andrew bolts's _ discredit the defendants? that is andrew bolts's way _ discredit the defendants? that is andrew bolts's way of _ discredit the defendants? that is andrew bolts's way of speaking i discredit the defendants? that is| andrew bolts's way of speaking to discredit the defendants? that is - andrew bolts's way of speaking to mr jenkins at that time. i only got sight of all this when his family came to me at the top end of the e—mail. i'm right at the end of the

e—mail. i'm right at the end of the e—mail chain. e-mail. i'm right at the end of the e-mail chain-— e-mail chain. let's look at one e-mail chain. let's look at one e-mail above _ e-mail chain. let's look at one e-mail above that _ e-mail chain. let's look at one e-mail above that to _ e-mail chain. let's look at one e-mail above that to begin - e-mail chain. let's look at one i e-mail above that to begin with. e-mail chain. let's look at one - e-mail above that to begin with. the e—mail above that to begin with. the response from gareth jenkins to andrew bolts. he says as follows. "i think i understand what he is claiming, however, where there are cons problems, it's normal to recover any missing data once the comms are sorted out —— comms problems. there are processes in place to retrieve outstanding comms data when it lasts more than seven days. i could make a general statement relating to that or if we retrieve data from the time, i could check exactly what happened in this case. i have checked with penny in our prosecution support team and post office limited have not requested any audit data relating to this case. she has checked back as

far as april 2010. nor have we been asked about help desk calls which would probably have occurred if there were comms issues. is it worth asking post office limited to request such data for me to examine before putting together a specific statement for this? what is a simple, generic statement sufficient?" is this the e—mail that caused you to think about the difference between the nbs to see...? —— nbsc?l difference between the nbs to see...? -- nbsc?— difference between the nbs to see...? -- nbsc? i can't say for certain- — see...? -- nbsc? i can't say for certain- it's _ see...? -- nbsc? i can't say for certain. it'sjust _ see...? -- nbsc? i can't say for certain. it'sjust between - see...? -- nbsc? i can't say for certain. it'sjust between the - certain. it's just between the members of the team. you ask for a call logs, horizon logs, then you find you have to do a different way, and when you requested horizon logs, it always went the casework or the security team. it it always went the casework or the security team-— security team. it continues, "the data retrieval— security team. it continues, "the data retrieval as _ security team. it continues, "the data retrieval as part _ security team. it continues, "the data retrieval as part of- security team. it continues, "the

data retrieval as part of the - data retrieval as part of the standard service that fujitsu provides to post office limited but any time i spend examining the data would be chargeable to post office limited and so there are commercial considerations for you or post office limited to consider. as we 0ffice limited to consider. as we are nearing the christmas break, i cannot commit to any such analysis before new year." when your weight or commercial considerations and concerns having to spend money on fujitsu's assistance? its concerns having to spend money on fujitsu's assistance?— fujitsu's assistance? its all was been commercial— fujitsu's assistance? its all was been commercial concerns - fujitsu's assistance? its all was - been commercial concerns because part of the contract was you have so many that when you are requesting the ar 0 data, there were so many sources that you would look at what data is required because sometimes you might get a blanket of five years' worth and you have to look at the consideration of that. if it is required for the case, the cost does not come into it. if it's needed, it should be applied for. lit not come into it. if it's needed, it

should be applied for.— should be applied for. if we stroll u - , we should be applied for. if we stroll up. we then _ should be applied for. if we stroll up. we then see _ should be applied for. if we stroll up, we then see a _ should be applied for. if we stroll up, we then see a response. - should be applied for. if we stroll. up, we then see a response. andrew bolts says, "thank you for considering the position so promptly. i can no confirm the case has been put back. i would appreciate if you can hold back your general comments at this stage regarding the comms problems and send it to me as before and i will send it to me as before and i will send it to the post office to go on to decide whether we request the retrieval of data for your further analysis. i say so on the assumption that the data is available for seven years, an idea of what today's' analysis would cost would assist in that decision." why would the cost assist in the decision as to whether to seek the data or not? h assist in the decision as to whether to seek the data or not?— to seek the data or not? i can't sa , to seek the data or not? i can't say. i'm _ to seek the data or not? i can't say. i'm not — to seek the data or not? i can't say. i'm not party _ to seek the data or not? i can't say, i'm not party to _ to seek the data or not? i can't say, i'm not party to all- to seek the data or not? i can't say, i'm not party to all this . to seek the data or not? i can't i say, i'm not party to all this about costs backwards and forwards, that would solely be between them. andrew bolts would have _ would solely be between them. andrew bolts would have to _ would solely be between them. andrew bolts would have to have _ would solely be between them. andrew bolts would have to have taking -

bolts would have to have taking instructions from the post office. who would provide him with instructions? probably who would provide him with probably the casework team, it wouldn't be taken from me. then says, "with regard to help desk calls i assume this information freely to the post office and therefore would request that. i attach the non—polling report obtained previously. i. it " it says, "please see the attached report from gareth which i propose to serve on the defence. i have looked at the issue and i believe it has been dealt with adequately for our purposes. gareth tells me it is possible for him to retrieve the actual data from this time to see

what actually occurred at this branch and at the retrieval of the data is free to the post office. but he estimates it will take approximately two and a half days for him to look at it and analyse what it means and this would be chargeable to the post office at £2500 approximately. i've told him that at present we do not wish to pursue this option unless it became unavoidable. can you let me know your thoughts before i get him to sign it off?" this is an e—mail to you from andrew bolts, just the two of you involved in this. why if you are not responsible for making decisions about the cost of retrieval, is he asking you whether to pursue it? l retrieval, is he asking you whether to pursue it?— to pursue it? i don't really know but in the _ to pursue it? i don't really know but in the case _ to pursue it? i don't really know but in the case of _ to pursue it? i don't really know but in the case of this _ to pursue it? i don't really know but in the case of this e-mail, l to pursue it? i don't really know but in the case of this e-mail, it but in the case of this e—mail, it would either be replied to via an e—mail back to him on a telephone call but if it's required, the data, 2500 sounds a lot in the greater

scheme of things, it isn't and if it is required they have to go ahead with it. s ., , is required they have to go ahead with it. s . , ., is required they have to go ahead with it. s ., ., ,, is required they have to go ahead with it. s ., ., , ., with it. was that your answer to andrew bolts, _ with it. was that your answer to andrew bolts, if _ with it. was that your answer to andrew bolts, if it _ with it. was that your answer to andrew bolts, if it is _ with it. was that your answer to andrew bolts, if it is required, ij andrew bolts, if it is required, i don't care about the cost? basically, that's my stance on it. it's as if he's trying to put it on me to say it's too expensive, but my stance is if it is required for any inquiry or prosecution, you have to get it. inquiry or prosecution, you have to let it. �* , , ., . inquiry or prosecution, you have to letit.�* . get it. and it is your evidence you clearly communicated _ get it. and it is your evidence you clearly communicated that - get it. and it is your evidence you clearly communicated that to - get it. and it is your evidence you - clearly communicated that to andrew bolts. hf clearly communicated that to andrew bolts. �* , ., a clearly communicated that to andrew bolts. �* , ., ,~' ., clearly communicated that to andrew bolts. �* , ., ., bolts. if i'd being asked to do something. — bolts. if i'd being asked to do something. i— bolts. if i'd being asked to do something, i don't _ bolts. if i'd being asked to do something, i don't know - bolts. if i'd being asked to do something, i don't know how| bolts. if i'd being asked to do i something, i don't know how the communication has gone back, whether it has been e—mail or telephone, but i don't let thingsjust it has been e—mail or telephone, but i don't let things just go away as if it is going to be buried. i would have answered him.— if it is going to be buried. i would have answered him. let's look at the next loll.

this is the response from andrew bolts to mrjenkins. he says, "dear gareth, the investigator is happy with the report as it stands, please proceed as before." so absolutely no questioning of further data was going to be obtained. it implies you, the investigator, were happy. it indicates that i have spoken to him about it or whatever the

conversation is. i can't say at this time. whether it's me towards him or him towards me, i think he's made the decision in the end. my stance would be if it is required, regardless of the cost. i can't speak for why that is not reflected, i can't speak for andrew bolts. it i can't speak for andrew bolts. it says the investigator is happy with the report as it stands. that says the investigator is happy with the report as it stands.— the report as it stands. that could well be based _ the report as it stands. that could well be based on _ the report as it stands. that could well be based on whatever- the report as it stands. that could well be based on whatever he - the report as it stands. that could well be based on whatever he has| well be based on whatever he has explained to me.— well be based on whatever he has explained to me. andrew bolts has liven explained to me. andrew bolts has given evidence _ explained to me. andrew bolts has given evidence to _ explained to me. andrew bolts has given evidence to this _ explained to me. andrew bolts has given evidence to this inquiry, - explained to me. andrew bolts has given evidence to this inquiry, his i given evidence to this inquiry, his suggestion and his suggestion was that the worst of the investigator was essentially in speech marks because he didn't think your much of investigator. because he didn't think your much of investigator-— investigator. that's his opinion. what are your _ investigator. that's his opinion. what are your views _ investigator. that's his opinion. what are your views of - investigator. that's his opinion. what are your views of his - investigator. that's his opinion. - what are your views of his opinion? i could see the same about him but i'm not going down that line —— i could say the same about him. islrniihat

could say the same about him. what was our could say the same about him. what was your opinion _ could say the same about him. what was your opinion of _ could say the same about him. what was your opinion of andrew bolts? andrew bolts was a lawyer for cartwright king. i'm not prepared to get into somebody�*s character. context is important in this inquiry so we would be grateful for your view on andrew bolc and his ability to carry out the job.— to carry out the 'ob. andrew bolc works for to carry out the job. andrew bolc works for cartwright _ to carry out the job. andrew bolc works for cartwright king, - to carry out the job. andrew bolc works for cartwright king, that's| works for cartwright king, that's all i'm prepared to say. there was no other issue with solicitors on my work effort from any other solicitor within cartwright king. it can only be andrew bolc�*s opinion. ialrni’ha within cartwright king. it can only be andrew bolc's opinion. who was in charle of be andrew bolc's opinion. who was in charge of deciding _ be andrew bolc's opinion. who was in charge of deciding whether _ be andrew bolc's opinion. who was in charge of deciding whether to - charge of deciding whether to retrieve audit data? it

charge of deciding whether to retrieve audit data?— charge of deciding whether to retrieve audit data? it would come as a request _ retrieve audit data? it would come as a request to _ retrieve audit data? it would come as a request to identify _ retrieve audit data? it would come| as a request to identify something. do you see as being responsible for the underlying data audit? it the underlying data audit? ut depends on the inquiry, when you look at the underlying data, to try and establish something, you may order the ar 0 data via the casework team or you may be requested from the solicitors as the defence require the arc) data. it's a two—way street. d0 require the arq data. it's a two-way street. , ., , require the arq data. it's a two-way street. i. , .,, require the arq data. it's a two-way street. , ., ,, street. do you see as taking responsibility _ street. do you see as taking responsibility as _ street. do you see as taking responsibility as to - street. do you see as taking responsibility as to whether| street. do you see as taking . responsibility as to whether the data was requested or not? i cannot sa if the data was requested or not? i cannot say if the data _ data was requested or not? i cannot say if the data was _ data was requested or not? i cannot say if the data was ordered - data was requested or not? i cannot say if the data was ordered or- data was requested or not? i cannot say if the data was ordered or not. i say if the data was ordered or not. the e—mail was very clear, mr jenkins said i cannot carry out more of an investigation, the decision

has been carried out —— decision has been taken not to carry out that investigation.— investigation. andrew bolc is responsible _ investigation. andrew bolc is responsible for _ investigation. andrew bolc is responsible for the _ investigation. andrew bolc is responsible for the ultimate | responsible for the ultimate decision. he's the one putting the evidence together for the defence. the answers for the defence. let’s the answers for the defence. let's look at the — the answers for the defence. let's look at the next _ the answers for the defence. let's look at the next poll. _ the answers for the defence. let's look at the next poll. this - the answers for the defence. let's look at the next poll. this is - the answers for the defence. let's look at the next poll. this is a - look at the next poll. this is a statement from gareth jenkins that was put forward in that case. i'm going to read to you from the first paragraph. "i am garethjenkins, i am employed by fujitsu who have been contacted by post office limited to provide the horizon system is operating in post offices around the country. however, iunderstand operating in post offices around the country. however, i understand that my role is to assist the court rather than to represent the views of my employer is or post office

limited. " if we go over the page, i am going to read some of that statement. he says, "i've been asked to provide a statement in the case of grant allen. i understand the integrity of the system has been questioned and this report provides some general information. i know that in the summary of facts, it is stated that during the period of relocation in march 2010, mr allen believed that a £3000 discrepancy was due to horizon not sending out data. non—polling. i've been shown extracts from the horizon non—polled reports from the eighth to the 17th of march which show that the winsford branch was included in the report for 12 days up to and including the 17th of march. this in itself is unusual, as if a branch appears on the non—polled report for more than a few days, an attempt is made to retrieve the data by other

means before day ten. i