thanks to south africa's intervention, the question is now before the international court ofjustice in the hague, something which most israelis have greeted with a mix of disgust and disdain. my guest today is gideon levy, journalist, commentator and long—time critic of his own country's leaders. three months into this war, prompted by hamas�*s attack on southern israel, what has happened to the israeli mindset? gideon levy in tel aviv,

welcome to hardtalk. thank you. it's such a pleasure to be back in hardtalk with you, stephen. well, it's a pleasure to have you on the show. let's begin with a very basic fact — you are one of your own israeli government's fiercest critics. you have been for a long time. you've certainly been an arch critic of the israeli military strategy in gaza. given all of that, i just wonder how you feel sitting in tel aviv watching the international court ofjustice consider the case of genocide filed against israel. i was watching it with a lot of sadness, depression and also a sense of shame, i must tell you. you know, my parents came here as refugees, really the ashes of the biggest genocide in history. and here, 80, 90 years later,

israel is accused for genocide. i mean, i wish more israelis have at least watched the scenes, at least watch the scenes of gaza. they don't see gaza. i wish they would have seen more of the children on the grounds of the hospitals, the starvation, the destruction. but none of this is presented here, so theyjust condemn anyone who dares to criticise israel. i don't know if, legally, it is a genocide, but it is a bloodbath. it is a terrible, terrible mass killing. and really, do we care if it's legally a genocide or not? the israelis don't mind about the killing, theyjust mind about labelling it as genocide, so... well, they mind, i guess, for reasons which are, for anyone who knows some history, understandable.

i mean, to quote president herzog, your country's president, he calls the accusations "atrocious and preposterous". and you yourselfjust referenced to me your own past. your own parents came from germany and from czechoslovakia. they were fortunate, they survived the nazi holocaust. but much of your wider family did not. you know what genocide means, but it doesn't sound like you share any of the israeli fury about the application of that word to your country. i totally do. but remember that the same president who condemned the international court ofjustice in the hague signed on a rocket aimed at gaza, signed on a bomb which is aimed at gaza. this bomb might have killed innocent children or women, like most of the bombs did. let's remember, 60%, 70% of the casualties are women and children.

so he is signing on a bomb and condemning those who criticise it. that's really shameful. could it be that there is something about israel, something about the jewish state which the international community feels moved to act upon right now? i'm just very aware, as indeed are many israelis, that the united states military intervention in iraq cost hundreds of thousands of civilian lives, as far as we know. and we can point to many other military actions in the last 50 years which have cost tens, hundreds of thousands of lives. and yet here we are with the international court ofjustice taking this historic proceeding against the jewish state. does that strike you in some ways as questionable? stephen, israel was always judged on different criteria. we have to admit it, but it goes both ways. it goes for the good

and for the bad. israel feels and is part of the west. israel is considered the only democracy in the middle east. we don't want to be compared neither to sudan nor to syria, nor to libya. we are something else. and, yes, stephen, there is a special sentiment toward thejewish people throughout israel. the story of israel is a very unique one. you cannot compare it to any other country. and still, nothing will make it easierfor me, and for any man of conscience, any person of conscience, what's going on now in gaza. nothing of those things about the special case of israel, the special history of israel, obviously the barbaric attack on the 7th, nothing of this should be forgotten. but by the end of the day, what is happening now in gaza is unforgivable. and all those things are very strong and very powerful, but they don't do anything

to the facts on the ground. and by the time that you and me are talking now, another child is being killed for nothing. what we've seen in the last 2a hours is israel's prime minister come out and say this... "israel has no intention of permanently occupying gaza "or displacing its civilian population. "israel is fighting hamas terrorists "and not the palestinian population. " he's never been that explicit about israel's complete disinterest in a reoccupation or displacement of the people of gaza. good morning, israel. good morning, benjamin netanyahu. this just shows you how important is the procedure in the hague, because if at least this makes the israeli prime minister and some israelis to think about what we are doing and maybe to restrain

ourselves, maybe to understand that what was happening until now is unacceptable, so it was worth it to get to the hague. let's talk a little bit about your. . . isolation, if i can put it that way, within the discourse inside your own country. there is no doubt — survey after survey shows the israeli public as a whole are absolutely supportive of the idf�*s operations inside gaza. and as the death toll has mounted well beyond 20,000, with more than 10,000 women and children killed in that operation, the support from the israeli public has been unwavering. doesn't that tell you something about the strength and the clarity of israel's message that it must act to protect and defend its people?

no argument about this. i think, as the majority, that israel has the right to defend itself, for sure. no doubt about it. the only question is if this permits us to do everything and anything, violating any international law article. and above all, let's look at the mirror. is this what we want? does it serve us? those thousands of children killed, and women, what does it serve israel? are we in a more secure place today than three months ago? no... but my point is that the vast majority of israelis disagree with you. does it ever strike you that maybe, on this occasion, you've got it wrong? stephen, you know me for many years — i was always quite lonely. i was always being held as lunatic or wrong or anti—israeli or a self—hating jew. and i never thought that i'm wrong. and looking backwards,

when i look at my positions in the past, my only self—criticism is that i wasn't radical enough. it is incumbent on you, though, as one of the most prominent commentators on the left in israel, it's incumbent on you — if you say we have a right to self—defence, but this military operation, the massive bombardment and assault on gaza, which has destroyed neighbourhoods and killed 23,000 people, if that is not the right way, you've got to tell israelis what the alternative is. and then i answer the israelis, now you are coming? after we are deep in this black hole? now you come to ask for an advice? no. we have to go much backwards, because this didn't start on the 7th. it started long before. but i will not go throughout the whole history from �*48 and even before. but 16 years, we are

putting gaza in a cage. what did we think will grow there? what did we think, in this experiment in human beings, maybe the biggest experiment in human beings, will grow in a reality in which 2.3 million people are put being put in a cage, or in a prison? what can grow there? loving israel? pacifism? what can grow there? prosperity? what can grow there? so don't come now and ask what to do now. ask me 16 years ago what to do. the problem with that argument is that october 7th happened, the murderous assault on southern israel happened, and it changed the dynamic. the message that you've been delivering for decades to israelis wasn't being heeded then. but the whole dynamic has shifted since. you actually visited kibbutz be�*eri, one of those kibbutz hardest hit by the hamas horrors. and you said, "i've never in my life seen

"such difficult sights. "it is impossible to let them pass without settling accounts "with everyone responsible." those the words of peacenik gideon levy. so i come back to this practical point — you've got to... to be credible, you've got to have an idea of how these people that you want to hold to account can be tackled, if it's not by the idf�*s current strategy. we should tackle them, we should punish them. we cannot punish 2.3 million people. it's unacceptable in any case... but if hamas is woven into the fabric of gaza as not just a military network, but a social, economic and political network, if they are ingrained and figuratively and literally entrenched in gaza, how else do you eliminate them? first of all, you can't eliminate them because for israel, any teacher who got a salary from hamas should be killed and any bank account

who got a salary from hamas should be killed as well. i don't think so. hamas cannot be eliminated because it's, so many people said it before me, it's an ideology, it's a movement. it's very strong in the west bank. so then we'll go to the west bank and kill everyone there. it's endless. we have to realise that there are certain things which are achievable and certain things which are unachievable in any condition. there are things which are unacceptable, also. killing this mass of children is unacceptable in any condition. now, coming back to the question, i think we punished gaza enough. i think we punished hamas enough. i think we have to do anything possible to release the hostages and we should now stop this war. it doesn't lead to any good place, neither for israel nor for the palestinians, by the way, and... so when ghazi hamad, a senior hamas official in beirut, just a couple of months ago says, "the al—aqsa flood 0peration" —

their name for what they did on october 7th — "is just the first. "there will be a second, a third, a fourth, "because we have the determination, the resolve "and the capabilities. " you're just saying, "oh, you know what? "we'lljust ignore that. that's just rhetoric. "we won't take that seriously." and, stephen, do you think if we continue now and kill another 20,000 people in gaza and destroy the left, the left of what's left in gaza, then this will not happen? you really think that we can avoid everything and prevent everything and retaliate it? no. there are limits to what we can do by power, by force. and we reached this point and now it's time to try something else. first of all, negotiation about the hostages. and, yes, we are facing a very complicated reality. i don't ever pretend in which in two minutes we will solve everything. but i know one thing. continuing this war will not solve anything, and more and more people realise it. so let's stop it for a while.

let's sit down and, first of all, release the hostages in any price, by the way, because their time is running out. running out. i've talked to you on several occasions over many years, and itjust seems to me that in the past you have been part of an identifiable, meaningful peace camp in israel. now, it seems the peace camp is dead. finished. there's gideon levy, a few other lone voices, and no real movement. what happened ? this is one of the big losses of the 7th of october. the 7th of october, with all the terrible crimes and atrocities and horrible scenes, really destroyed the last remains of the... ..of the peace camp around me. so many people say now, people who were quite

supporting my views say now, "no, no, no, afterthe 7th, "that's the end. "we cannot accept them. "we cannot forgive them. "and we don't want to hear about their. . .their suffer." and one, if i may say so, gideon, one reason for that is some of the staunchest supporters of coexistence who reached out to palestinian communities, both in gaza, in the west bank, were murdered on october 7th. thinking of the canadian israeli vivian silver, who spent most of her adult life working for peace, murdered by hamas. did that not make any difference to you and your thinking? it affected my thinking, like any victim of the attack in october, would it be a peacenik or a right—winger, both shouldn't have been slaughtered the way they were slaughtered. and still i ask, does one attack really change all our values and all the things we in the left, or what is left of the left,

that we believed in all our lives? and you know what, stephen, i want to ask you another question. we are so furious after the 7th and we change our minds and we are not ready for any empathy or mercy on the people of gaza. now, imagine yourself a palestinian young man in gaza who was born into the siege and who is living under israeli attacks all his life. what does he care about israel? it's not one attack. it's hundreds and thousands of attacks. less brutal, obviously, than the 7th. but if you look at his life, he should be much more hateful to us than we are toward them. so let's put aside all those accounts. there was a horrible thing happening on the 7th, and we have to get up, get back to our values, because those are the only universal moral values i know. i don't know other moral values. i don't know revenge as a value. i don't know hatred as a value.

and i don't think that it will lead us to anywhere. the fact that vivian was killed, does it help now that we kill 1,000 vivians in gaza? does it help to anyone? one of the most recurrent messages in your columns in haaretz since october 7th and since the israeli military operation was launched has been this increased alarm you seem to feel at the dehumanisation of palestinians by the mass of israelis, and you seem to see a total lack of empathy. but don't you exaggerate when you say, as you've said recently, that israel, quote, "is going mad. "mccarthyism and fascism reign. " you are...you are devaluing what israel is, are you not? no, stephen, because i see the phenomena and i always know how it starts and you never

know how it goes on. and the beginning is very, very worrying because people were arrested for demonstrations. people. . .you say that we don't feel empathy. it's almost forbidden to express empathy with gaza. if you are an arab israeli citizen, don't you dare to feel empathy with gaza because then you will be really in trouble. if you arejewish... come on, gideon, you... you haven't been silenced. you're one of the most powerful voices on your newspaper. i say if you are arab israeli, and then i say if you are jewish, be also aware. i wasn't silenced in my newspaper, but i was silenced on israeli tv and in other places. and don't complain, i have full freedom. i really don't complain. but by the end of the day, the feeling is that paying empathy now with gaza is an act of treason, no less than this. i don't remember such a phenomena ever before, so this should worry

me as an israeli. this should more worry me. where are we reaching it? and above all, stephen, the role of the media. i cannot ignore this, because this time the israeli media play the role that i never saw before. i mean, we were always criticising the russian media, covering the war in ukraine. "oh, look how they're covering the war in ukraine. "what a joke." we are much worse because we are doing it voluntarily. you cannot see any image of gaza in israeli tv and israeli newspapers. hardly see an image. israelis are not exposed to anything of the... nothing of the suffer... but... ..of the starvation, of the uprooted people. nothing. this is a democracy, when you don't show the truth? you talked earlier about empathy and putting yourself in other people's shoes. i'm now trying to put myself in your shoes. for you as a commentator who wants to influence opinion, shouldn't you try to reach

israelis in a way that shows more empathy for them? for example, you still seem to support the economic isolation of israel through an international economic boycott. now, to most israelis, that is deeply unpatriotic. it is a betrayal of your own country's interests. if you want people to come over to your side, shouldn't you modify some of your positions? i lost hope of really influencing. i'm not influencing. i'm really whistling in the darkness and i live with it. i mean, i don't know how to modify myself. you mentioned the boycott. do you have any idea how will we put an end to the apartheid and to the occupation from within? i wish i could influence israelis to wake up one morning and say, "oh, this occupation is so brutal. "oh, this apartheid is so much injust in it. "let's put an end to it." you really think this will ever happen?

it will only happen if israelis will feel that they have something to lose. and this can happen only through an international intervention. so it's not very convenient. you think it's so convenient for me to call for boycott my country? but what else is left? we're out of time almost, but before we end, just a reflection on the long course of your career. many, many years ago, you were an adviser to shimon peres, the arch proponent of a two—state solution. you've now given up on that two—state solution. you say that it is long past time when that was a real possibility. and you talk about a one state which you say must have full equality and which therefore, i would suggest to you, is the death knell for zionism. so are you now a person who no longer believes in any form of zionism, a state for the jewish people, a safe haven forever? zionism today is jewish superiority.

there is no other way to define today's zionism but to say that in a place where two peoples are living, one people has more rights than the other. sojewish supremacy is not an option for me, and i don't see zionism withoutjewish supremacy. and those who... but there could be a two—state solution in which actually, jewish supremacy in one state could coexist peacefully with palestinian arab supremacy in the other state. but you've ruled that out now? no, no, i didn't rule it out. ithink, istill think it's a wonderful idea. 0nly israel did anything possible to prevent it and to destroy it. because with 700,000 settlers in the west bank and eastjerusalem, a place where i visit regularly for 35 years now, there is no room for an independent, equal palestinian state,

and we don't want a bantustan there. we want a viable state. it will never be when those 700,000 settlers are there and there is no—one in israel who will ever be able to evacuate those 700,000 settlers, the most powerful group in israeli politics. soi... two—state solution could be morejust and more implementable, but this train left the station. in a word, and it has to be a word... in a word, and i've known you a long time, have you ever felt more depressed ? no. definitely, no. but, stephen, we cannot finish our show with such a pessimistic vision. let's just remember that many unexpectable things happen in history, and we could not expect them. let's remember an expression which is not mine, that in this part of the world, one should be realistic enough to believe in miracles. so let's believe in miracles. gideon levy, thank you very much forjoining me on hardtalk.

thanks. hello there. it was another day where some of us had sunshine, some of us had cloudy skies on thursday. bthe cloud, again, was coming in from the north sea, bringing with it some patches of drizzle for east scotland, eastern areas of england, but as the cloud came around the area of high pressure that's dominating to the northwest, it actually mixed in some slightly drier air, just above the cloud layer, as those winds went across the mountains, and that drier air evaporated the cloud. and so, what a glorious day it was across parts of the highlands, with not a cloud in the sky.

we're going to have a similar kind of weather prospects, really, over the next day or so. with these clear skies in place in scotland, it's a very cold night in places. temperatures getting down into minus double figures, —10, —12 degrees, something like that. whereas where we keep the cloud, that is across large parts of england, wales and northern ireland, it'll stay largely frost—free. and so, for friday morning, it's another day where cloud will vary quite a lot. the cloud thick enough across eastern areas of england to bring us a few patches of drizzle at times, particularly during the morning. the afternoon tending to become a little bit drier. the best of the sunshine — well, scotland. cloud might break in northern ireland, and the northwest of both england and wales could also see some breaks in the cloud. now, temperatures give or take around about six degrees, bit colder than that, though, in the sunshine in scotland. 0n into the weekend's weather prospects — we start to get a northwesterly wind moving in. thicker cloud brings the threat of a few showers for northern scotland, maybe an odd spit of rain for northern ireland, too. still quite cloudy across england and wales, but probably a better chance of seeing a few cloud breaks,

little bit of sunshine coming through, and it continues to be cold for the time of year. but then, as we get into the second half of the weekend and into monday, across northern areas of scotland, northerly winds start to blow harder and we start to get showers turning to snow. some accumulations are quite likely, so we could start to see some disruption across one and two routes. elsewhere, though, through sunday and monday, little overall change in the weather picture. some sharp frosts, a lot of dry weather, some spells of sunshine. beyond that, though, into next week, we could see some areas of snow affecting northern areas of the uk early in the week, and maybe a system coming up from the south later in the week. there is still quite a bit of uncertainty about those kind of features, but the potential for seeing some disruption is certainly there. the highest risk initially across parts of northern scotland. bye for now.

live from london, this is bbc news. us and uk forces launch air strikes against houthi rebel targets in yemen, in retaliation to attacks on commercial ships in the red sea. uk prime minister rishi sunak says that the strikes are a "limited, necessary and proportionate action "in self—defence", but a senior

houthi leader warns that the us and uk would "pay a heavy price". tensions with china loom as taiwan gets ready to go to the polls to elect a new president. and scientists discover a gigantic ring—shaped galaxy cluster in space, so big it challenges our understanding of the universe. hello and welcome to bbc news. the uk and the us have carried out military strikes against houthi rebels in yemen, following sustained attacks on shipping in the red sea. these pictures are from the uk's ministry of defence. this is the moment royal air

force jets took off from cyprus to carry out strikes on two houthi targets in yemen.