i think this needs to be therefore i think this needs to be considered — therefore i think this needs to be considered with— therefore i think this needs to be considered with great _ therefore i think this needs to be considered with great care, - therefore i think this needs to be i considered with great care, possibly those _ considered with great care, possibly those whose — considered with great care, possibly those whose cases _ considered with great care, possibly those whose cases were _ considered with great care, possibly| those whose cases were overturned, they may _ those whose cases were overturned, they may need — those whose cases were overturned, they may need to _ those whose cases were overturned, they may need to be _ those whose cases were overturned, they may need to be told _ those whose cases were overturned, they may need to be told you - those whose cases were overturned, they may need to be told you how. those whose cases were overturned, they may need to be told you how to come _ they may need to be told you how to come back— they may need to be told you how to come back to — they may need to be told you how to come back to the _ they may need to be told you how to come back to the court _ they may need to be told you how to come back to the court of _ they may need to be told you how to come back to the court of appeal, . come back to the court of appeal, but you _ come back to the court of appeal, but you will— come back to the court of appeal, but you will do _ come back to the court of appeal, but you will do so _ come back to the court of appeal, but you will do so with _ come back to the court of appeal, l but you will do so with government assistance — but you will do so with government assistance and _ but you will do so with government assistance and legal— but you will do so with government assistance and legal aid _ but you will do so with government assistance and legal aid so - but you will do so with government assistance and legal aid so these . assistance and legal aid so these things— assistance and legal aid so these things can — assistance and legal aid so these things can he _ assistance and legal aid so these things can be attended _ assistance and legal aid so these things can be attended by- assistance and legal aid so these things can be attended by the . assistance and legal aid so these . things can be attended by the court of appeal, — things can be attended by the court oprpeat, but— things can be attended by the court of appeal, but i _ things can be attended by the court of appeal, but i think— things can be attended by the court of appeal, but i think that - things can be attended by the court of appeal, but i think that is - things can be attended by the court of appeal, but i think that is still. of appeal, but i think that is still up of appeal, but i think that is still up for— of appeal, but i think that is still up for bottoming _ of appeal, but i think that is still up for bottoming out, _ of appeal, but i think that is still up for bottoming out, and - of appeal, but i think that is still up for bottoming out, and we . of appeal, but i think that is still. up for bottoming out, and we have not come — up for bottoming out, and we have not come to— up for bottoming out, and we have not come to a _ up for bottoming out, and we have not come to a firm _ up for bottoming out, and we have not come to a firm conclusion. - not come to a firm conclusion. anthony. _ not come to a firm conclusion. anthony. then— not come to a firm conclusion. anthony, thenjonathan. - canl can ijust can i just ask you how you feel about it? , ., ., can i just ask you how you feel about it?— can ijust ask you how you feel about it? , , , , can ijust ask you how you feel aboutit? , , , , , about it? very good, because this is about it? very good, because this is a mass problem _ about it? very good, because this is a mass problem which _ about it? very good, because this is a mass problem which required - about it? very good, because this is a mass problem which required a i about it? very good, because this is i a mass problem which required a mass solution _ a mass problem which required a mass solution and _ a mass problem which required a mass solution and i— a mass problem which required a mass solution and i think— a mass problem which required a mass solution and i think the _ solution and i think the announcement - solution and i think the announcement on - solution and i think the - announcement on overturning solution and i think the _ announcement on overturning the convictions, — announcement on overturning the convictions, precisely— announcement on overturning the convictions, precisely how- announcement on overturning the convictions, precisely how that i announcement on overturning the convictions, precisely how that isi convictions, precisely how that is actually—

convictions, precisely how that is actually done _ convictions, precisely how that is actually done we _ convictions, precisely how that is actually done we have _ convictions, precisely how that is actually done we have yet - convictions, precisely how that is actually done we have yet to - convictions, precisely how that is i actually done we have yet to bottom out but _ actually done we have yet to bottom out but that — actually done we have yet to bottom out but that announcement - actually done we have yet to bottom out but that announcement was i actually done we have yet to bottoml out but that announcement was very, very welcome — out but that announcement was very, very welcome i— out but that announcement was very, very welcome. i can't _ out but that announcement was very, very welcome. i can't remember- out but that announcement was very, i very welcome. i can't remember when ifirst— very welcome. i can't remember when i first called _ very welcome. ican't remember when i first called for— very welcome. i can't remember when i first called for it, _ very welcome. i can't remember when i first called for it, a _ very welcome. i can't remember when i first called for it, a little _ very welcome. i can't remember when i first called for it, a little time - i first called for it, a little time ago. _ i first called for it, a little time ago. and — i first called for it, a little time ago. and his— i first called for it, a little time ago, and his announcement. i first called for it, a little time ago, and his announcement on i first called for it, a little time i ago, and his announcement on the simplification— ago, and his announcement on the simplification of— ago, and his announcement on the simplification of redress _ ago, and his announcement on the simplification of redress or- simplification of redress or compensation _ simplification of redress or compensation was - simplification of redress or compensation was also i simplification of redress or. compensation was also most simplification of redress or— compensation was also most welcome. i will come _ compensation was also most welcome. i will come on — compensation was also most welcome. i will come on to— compensation was also most welcome. i will come on to the _ compensation was also most welcome. i will come on to the point _ compensation was also most welcome. i will come on to the point of— compensation was also most welcome. i will come on to the point of the - i will come on to the point of the simplification of compensation but can i say, where we are at the moment, there is a complete breakdown in almost every part of the system. do you think the announcement will give trust to those claiming? you said it is a mass solution to solve the situation. how do you bring forward those people who have absolutely no faith in the system, who perhaps have no confidence in signing a letter saying they did no wrong for fear of prosecution later on? those are aood fear of prosecution later on? those are good points _ fear of prosecution later on? those are good points and _ fear of prosecution later on? those are good points and there - fear of prosecution later on? those are good points and there will- fear of prosecution later on? those are good points and there will be . are good points and there will be some _ are good points and there will be some who — are good points and there will be some who will— are good points and there will be some who will continue - are good points and there will be some who will continue to - are good points and there will bel some who will continue to refuse are good points and there will be i some who will continue to refuse to come _ some who will continue to refuse to come forward — some who will continue to refuse to come forward and _ some who will continue to refuse to come forward and i _ some who will continue to refuse to come forward and i begged - some who will continue to refuse to come forward and i begged them i some who will continue to refuse to come forward and i begged them to come _ come forward and i begged them to

come forward _ come forward and i begged them to come forward. the _ come forward and i begged them to come forward. the signing - come forward and i begged them to come forward. the signing of- come forward and i begged them to come forward. the signing of the i come forward. the signing of the letter, _ come forward. the signing of the letter, well, _ come forward. the signing of the letter, well, that— come forward. the signing of the letter, well, that may— come forward. the signing of the letter, well, that may be - come forward. the signing of the letter, well, that may be quite i letter, well, that may be quite difficult — letter, well, that may be quite difficult to _ letter, well, that may be quite difficult to draft _ letter, well, that may be quite difficult to draft such - letter, well, that may be quite difficult to draft such a - letter, well, that may be quite difficult to draft such a letter, i difficult to draft such a letter, for those _ difficult to draft such a letter, for those who _ difficult to draft such a letter, for those who may _ difficult to draft such a letter, for those who may be - difficult to draft such a letter, for those who may be said i difficult to draft such a letter, for those who may be said toi difficult to draft such a letter, i for those who may be said to have committed — for those who may be said to have committed false _ for those who may be said to have committed false accounting, i for those who may be said to have committed false accounting, do i for those who may be said to have i committed false accounting, do they si-n committed false accounting, do they sign to— committed false accounting, do they sign to say— committed false accounting, do they sign to say they _ committed false accounting, do they sign to say they didn't? _ committed false accounting, do they sign to say they didn't? i— committed false accounting, do they sign to say they didn't? i don't - sign to say they didn't? i don't know — sign to say they didn't? i don't know it — sign to say they didn't? i don't know it is _ sign to say they didn't? i don't know. it is difficult, _ sign to say they didn't? i don't know. it is difficult, but - sign to say they didn't? i don't know. it is difficult, but we i sign to say they didn't? i don'tl know. it is difficult, but we will hammer— know. it is difficult, but we will hammer it— know. it is difficult, but we will hammer it out— know. it is difficult, but we will hammer it out in— know. it is difficult, but we will hammer it out in one _ know. it is difficult, but we will hammer it out in one way- know. it is difficult, but we will hammer it out in one way or. know. it is difficult, but we will - hammer it out in one way or another. can i_ hammer it out in one way or another. can liust _ hammer it out in one way or another. can liust ask— hammer it out in one way or another. can i just ask where _ hammer it out in one way or another. can ijust ask where you _ hammer it out in one way or another. can ijust ask where you see - hammer it out in one way or another. can ijust ask where you see the i can i just ask where you see the role of parliament and all of this? because what we are about to do in terms of legislation to overturn the convictions is unprecedented. indeed, this whole situation is unprecedented, horrific, but does this set a dangerous precedent for parliament to start overturning convictions? how does the judiciary responded what happens in future cases? it does set a precedent but in quite extraordinary— it does set a precedent but in quite extraordinary circumstances - it does set a precedent but in quite extraordinary circumstances that i it does set a precedent but in quite extraordinary circumstances that it| extraordinary circumstances that it is hard. _ extraordinary circumstances that it is hard. i_ extraordinary circumstances that it is hard. i hope. _ extraordinary circumstances that it is hard, i hope, to— extraordinary circumstances that it is hard, i hope, to see _ extraordinary circumstances that it is hard, i hope, to see that- is hard, i hope, to see that precedent _ is hard, i hope, to see that

precedent being _ is hard, i hope, to see that precedent being repeated. | is hard, i hope, to see that- precedent being repeated. the largest, — precedent being repeated. the largest, as _ precedent being repeated. the largest, as l _ precedent being repeated. the largest, as i understand - precedent being repeated. the largest, as i understand it, i precedent being repeated. thej largest, as i understand it, the largest— largest, as i understand it, the largest number— largest, as i understand it, the largest number of— largest, as i understand it, the largest number of cases - largest, as i understand it, the largest number of cases that i largest, as i understand it, the l largest number of cases that had previously— largest number of cases that had previously come _ largest number of cases that had previously come before - largest number of cases that had previously come before the i largest number of cases that had i previously come before the criminal cases— previously come before the criminal cases review — previously come before the criminal cases review commission _ previously come before the criminal cases review commission on - previously come before the criminal cases review commission on any i previously come before the criminal. cases review commission on any one issue _ cases review commission on any one issue was— cases review commission on any one issue was previously— cases review commission on any one issue was previously ten. _ cases review commission on any one issue was previously ten. when i cases review commission on any one issue was previously ten. when we i issue was previously ten. when we are talking — issue was previously ten. when we are talking of — issue was previously ten. when we are talking of 1000, _ issue was previously ten. when we are talking of 1000, produced i issue was previously ten. when we are talking of 1000, produced by. issue was previously ten. when we i are talking of 1000, produced by one organisation — are talking of 1000, produced by one organisation doing _ are talking of 1000, produced by one organisation doing private _ organisation doing private prosecutions— organisation doing private prosecutions in— organisation doing private prosecutions in no- organisation doing private prosecutions in no way. organisation doing private i prosecutions in no way which organisation doing private - prosecutions in no way which was quite _ prosecutions in no way which was quite abysmal, _ prosecutions in no way which was quite abysmal, i_ prosecutions in no way which was quite abysmal, i think— prosecutions in no way which was quite abysmal, i think that - prosecutions in no way which was quite abysmal, i think that is- prosecutions in no way which was. quite abysmal, i think that is quite difficult _ quite abysmal, i think that is quite difficult for — quite abysmal, i think that is quite difficult for us _ quite abysmal, i think that is quite difficult for us to _ quite abysmal, i think that is quite difficult for us to see _ quite abysmal, i think that is quite difficult for us to see repeated. i difficult for us to see repeated. how— difficult for us to see repeated. how will— difficult for us to see repeated. how will the _ difficult for us to see repeated. how will the judiciary— difficult for us to see repeated. how will the judiciary respond? difficult for us to see repeated. i how will the judiciary respond? i don't _ how will the judiciary respond? i don't think— how will the judiciary respond? i don't think the _ how will the judiciary respond? i don't think the judiciary- how will the judiciary respond? i don't think the judiciary is - how will the judiciary respond? i don't think the judiciary is at i how will the judiciary respond? i don't think the judiciary is at alli don't think the judiciary is at all happy— don't think the judiciary is at all happy with— don't think the judiciary is at all happy with its _ don't think the judiciary is at all happy with its own _ don't think the judiciary is at all happy with its own part - don't think the judiciary is at all happy with its own part in- don't think the judiciary is at all| happy with its own part in these events — happy with its own part in these events but _ happy with its own part in these events but i _ happy with its own part in these events. but i don't _ happy with its own part in these events. but i don't know- happy with its own part in these| events. but i don't know exactly happy with its own part in these i events. but i don't know exactly how the judiciary— events. but i don't know exactly how the judiciary will— events. but i don't know exactly how the judiciary will respond. _ events. but i don't know exactly how the judiciary will respond. i- events. but i don't know exactly how the judiciary will respond. i hope i the judiciary will respond. i hope they will— the judiciary will respond. i hope they will accept— the judiciary will respond. i hope they will accept that _ the judiciary will respond. i hope they will accept that these - the judiciary will respond. i hope they will accept that these casesj they will accept that these cases need _ they will accept that these cases need urgent _ they will accept that these cases need urgent overturning - they will accept that these cases| need urgent overturning because they will accept that these cases i need urgent overturning because we can't have _ need urgent overturning because we can't have more _ need urgent overturning because we can't have more people _ need urgent overturning because we can't have more people going - need urgent overturning because we can't have more people going to i can't have more people going to their— can't have more people going to their graves— can't have more people going to their graves where _ can't have more people going to their graves where the - can't have more people going to i their graves where the convictions still on _ their graves where the convictions still on their— their graves where the convictions

still on their records. _ still on their records. i have _ still on their records. i have two _ still on their records. i have two last - still on their records. i have two last bits i still on their records. l i have two last bits and still on their records. - i have two last bits and then i still on their records. _ i have two last bits and then i will hand back. dan needle wrote a particularly interesting thread last week around the horizon shortfall scheme in which he said, he was a compensation scheme that ran to iii pages, required legal advice which he estimated to be in the cost of £10,000, that is what he would quote somebody to be able to provide that advice to, and had it at school phrases —— obscure phrases, why are we still putting up with a system which is just so deliberately opaque in terms of trying to help people get the redress that they need to? why is a system like that even coming out to try and help people when it's not really doing the thing is meant to do? ican is meant to do? i can only concur with you and it is not driven— i can only concur with you and it is not driven from their side of the fence _ not driven from their side of the fence. from this side of the fence, we want _ fence. from this side of the fence, we want simplification. we want

speed _ we want simplification. we want speed of— we want simplification. we want speed of outcome and it is a source of frustration in all their schemes that there — of frustration in all their schemes that there was inconsistency and there _ that there was inconsistency and there is, — that there was inconsistency and there is, as _ that there was inconsistency and there is, as i described earlier, over— there is, as i described earlier, over engineering in all respects. 0ne over engineering in all respects. one final— over engineering in all respects. one final question, which is, could 0ne final question, which is, could either— 0ne final question, which is, could either review— one final question, which is, could either review explain _ one final question, which is, could either review explain to _ one final question, which is, could either review explain to me - one final question, which is, could either review explain to me why i one final question, which is, couldi either review explain to me why the horizon _ either review explain to me why the horizon system _ either review explain to me why the horizon system is _ either review explain to me why the horizon system is still _ either review explain to me why the horizon system is still in _ either review explain to me why the horizon system is still in use? in i horizon system is still in use? in the horizon system is still in use? the debate in 2014 and in 2015i the debate in 2014 and in 20151 think andrew held a debate in westminster when it was rumoured ibm will take over the system. there were then rumours amazon was going to take over the system. why is there still taxpayers money going towards horizon, why is it still in place and how can the post office continue to run using the system that has clearly betrayed so many people? that has clearly betrayed so many --eole? ~ ., that has clearly betrayed so many neale? ~ ., ., . that has clearly betrayed so many n-eole? ~ . . . , ., people? what an excellent question. luckil , people? what an excellent question. luckily. you — people? what an excellent question. luckily. you have _ people? what an excellent question. luckily, you have the _ people? what an excellent question. luckily, you have the minister- people? what an excellent question. luckily, you have the minister in - luckily, you have the minister in front_ luckily, you have the minister in front of— luckily, you have the minister in front of you _ luckily, you have the minister in front of you later— luckily, you have the minister in front of you later on. _ luckily, you have the minister in front of you later on. the - luckily, you have the minister in front of you later on. the inquiry into the scandal _ front of you later on. the inquiry into the scandal is _ front of you later on. the inquiry into the scandal is still _ front of you later on. the inquiry into the scandal is still ongoing. | into the scandal is still ongoing. you have raised your disappointment about the role of auditors not being considered as part of that. why do you personally believe auditors

should be part of this process? because the auditors either did or should _ because the auditors either did or should have — because the auditors either did or should have noticed _ because the auditors either did or should have noticed that - because the auditors either did or should have noticed that there - because the auditors either did orl should have noticed that there was because the auditors either did or. should have noticed that there was a potential— should have noticed that there was a potential liability _ should have noticed that there was a potential liability building _ should have noticed that there was a potential liability building up - potential liability building up within— potential liability building up within the _ potential liability building up within the post _ potential liability building up within the post office, - potential liability building up within the post office, that i potential liability building up i within the post office, that was likely— within the post office, that was likely to — within the post office, that was likely to give _ within the post office, that was likely to give rise _ within the post office, that was likely to give rise to _ within the post office, that was likely to give rise to casts - within the post office, that was likely to give rise to casts of, l within the post office, that wasi likely to give rise to casts of, we now see, — likely to give rise to casts of, we now see, £1_ likely to give rise to casts of, we now see, £1 billion. _ likely to give rise to casts of, we now see, £1 billion. if— likely to give rise to casts of, we now see, £1 billion. if the - likely to give rise to casts of, we i now see, £1 billion. if the auditors failed _ now see, £1 billion. if the auditors failed to— now see, £1 billion. if the auditors failed to realise _ now see, £1 billion. if the auditors failed to realise that, _ now see, £1 billion. if the auditors failed to realise that, was - now see, £1 billion. if the auditors failed to realise that, was it- failed to realise that, was it because _ failed to realise that, was it because they _ failed to realise that, was it because they were - failed to realise that, was it because they were not - failed to realise that, was it. because they were not looking failed to realise that, was it- because they were not looking at the ti l ht because they were not looking at the right things. — because they were not looking at the right things. or— because they were not looking at the right things, or was _ because they were not looking at the right things, or was it _ because they were not looking at the right things, or was it because - because they were not looking at the right things, or was it because they. right things, or was it because they were _ right things, or was it because they were ticking — right things, or was it because they were ticking boxes? _ right things, or was it because they were ticking boxes? or— right things, or was it because they were ticking boxes? or did - right things, or was it because they were ticking boxes? or did they- were ticking boxes? or did they realise — were ticking boxes? or did they realise that _ were ticking boxes? or did they realise that and _ were ticking boxes? or did they realise that and not _ were ticking boxes? or did they realise that and not bring - were ticking boxes? or did they realise that and not bring it - were ticking boxes? or did they realise that and not bring it to l were ticking boxes? or did they. realise that and not bring it to the film realise that and not bring it to the right people's _ realise that and not bring it to the right people's attention _ realise that and not bring it to the right people's attention with - right people's attention with sufficient? _ right people's attention with sufficient? i— right people's attention with sufficient? i don't _ right people's attention with sufficient? i don't know. - right people's attention with| sufficient? i don't know. the right people's attention with sufficient? i don't know. the final one from me. _ sufficient? i don't know. the final one from me, over— sufficient? i don't know. the final one from me, over with - sufficient? i don't know. the final one from me, over with the - sufficient? i don't know. the final. one from me, over with the inquiry, what are you hoping it will achieve, what are you hoping it will achieve, what is the desired outcome of the people you have been working with? i

people you have been working with? i actually have faith in the inquiry and i_ actually have faith in the inquiry and i hope — actually have faith in the inquiry and i hope it— actually have faith in the inquiry and i hope it will— actually have faith in the inquiry and i hope it will get— actually have faith in the inquiry and i hope it will get to - actually have faith in the inquiry and i hope it will get to the - actually have faith in the inquiry i and i hope it will get to the bottom of who— and i hope it will get to the bottom of who knew — and i hope it will get to the bottom of who knew what _ and i hope it will get to the bottom of who knew what and _ and i hope it will get to the bottom of who knew what and when. - and i hope it will get to the bottom of who knew what and when. of. and i hope it will get to the bottom . of who knew what and when. of what actually _ of who knew what and when. of what actually happened _ of who knew what and when. of what actually happened. i— of who knew what and when. of what actually happened. i think— of who knew what and when. of what actually happened. i think we're - actually happened. i think we're only halfway— actually happened. i think we're only halfway to _ actually happened. i think we're only halfway to finding - actually happened. i think we're only halfway to finding that - actually happened. i think we're only halfway to finding that out| actually happened. i think we're i only halfway to finding that out at nronrent~ — only halfway to finding that out at moment and _ only halfway to finding that out at moment. and then _ only halfway to finding that out at moment. and then i _ only halfway to finding that out at moment. and then i hope - only halfway to finding that out at moment. and then i hope it- only halfway to finding that out at moment. and then i hope it will. only halfway to finding that out at - moment. and then i hope it will make some _ moment. and then i hope it will make some serious— moment. and then i hope it will make some serious recommendations. - moment. and then i hope it will make. some serious recommendations. we've -ot some serious recommendations. we've got so _ some serious recommendations. we've got so nrany— some serious recommendations. we've got so many things— some serious recommendations. we've got so many things that _ some serious recommendations. we've got so many things that have _ some serious recommendations. we've got so many things that have gone - got so many things that have gone wrong _ got so many things that have gone wrong here, — got so many things that have gone wrong here, possibly— got so many things that have gone wrong here, possibly the - wrong here, possibly the adversarial system _ wrong here, possibly the adversarial system of _ wrong here, possibly the adversarial system of our — wrong here, possibly the adversarial system of our court _ wrong here, possibly the adversarial system of our court processes - wrong here, possibly the adversarial system of our court processes is- wrong here, possibly the adversarial| system of our court processes is one of them _ system of our court processes is one of them the — system of our court processes is one of them. the notion _ system of our court processes is one of them. the notion of— system of our court processes is one of them. the notion of private - of them. the notion of private prosecutions— of them. the notion of private prosecutions is— of them. the notion of private prosecutions is another. - of them. the notion of private prosecutions is another. the i prosecutions is another. the presumption _ prosecutions is another. the presumption that— prosecutions is another. the presumption that computerl prosecutions is another. the - presumption that computer evidence is reliable _ presumption that computer evidence is reliable is — presumption that computer evidence is reliable is another. _ presumption that computer evidence is reliable is another. how— presumption that computer evidence is reliable is another. how will... - is reliable is another. how will... there _ is reliable is another. how will... there are — is reliable is another. how will... there are lots _ is reliable is another. how will... there are lots of _ is reliable is another. how will... l there are lots of recommendations that i_ there are lots of recommendations that i hope — there are lots of recommendations that i hope witt— there are lots of recommendations that i hope will come _ there are lots of recommendations that i hope will come out— there are lots of recommendations that i hope will come out of- there are lots of recommendations that i hope will come out of the - that i hope will come out of the inquiry— that i hope will come out of the inquiry and _ that i hope will come out of the inquiryand i_ that i hope will come out of the inquiry and i believe, _ that i hope will come out of the inquiry and i believe, given- that i hope will come out of the inquiry and i believe, given the| that i hope will come out of the - inquiry and i believe, given the way that sir— inquiry and i believe, given the way that sir wyn — inquiry and i believe, given the way that sir wyn williams _ inquiry and i believe, given the way that sir wyn williams and - inquiry and i believe, given the way that sir wyn williams and jason - that sir wyn williams and jason beare _ that sir wyn williams and jason beare 0c— that sir wyn williams and jason beare qc are _ that sir wyn williams and jason beare qc are doing _ that sir wyn williams and jason beare qc are doing their- that sir wyn williams and jason beare qc are doing theirjob, . that sir wyn williams and jason beare qc are doing theirjob, ii beare qc are doing theirjob, i think— beare qc are doing theirjob, i think they— beare qc are doing theirjob, i think they will. _ think they will. 0ut _ think they will. out of- think they will.| out of interest, think they will. - out of interest, with, think they will. _ out of interest, with, worked for minister of defence for procurements, so used to external

contracts, do you think it would be appropriate for the government to cease any new contracts being given to fujitsu entail this inquiry is concluded and until they have paid their part back to the victims and back to the british taxpayer for the role they have likely played in this scandal? ., ,., ., ., , scandal? there are some areas where a sinale scandal? there are some areas where a single supplier— scandal? there are some areas where a single supplier is _ scandal? there are some areas where a single supplier is the _ scandal? there are some areas where a single supplier is the only _ scandal? there are some areas where a single supplier is the only viable - a single supplier is the only viable option. _ a single supplier is the only viable option. and — a single supplier is the only viable option. and we _ a single supplier is the only viable option, and we mustn't— a single supplier is the only viable option, and we mustn't cut - a single supplier is the only viable option, and we mustn't cut off- a single supplier is the only viablej option, and we mustn't cut off our noses— option, and we mustn't cut off our noses to _ option, and we mustn't cut off our noses to despite _ option, and we mustn't cut off our noses to despite our _ option, and we mustn't cut off our noses to despite our faces. - option, and we mustn't cut off our noses to despite our faces. but i i option, and we mustn't cut off our. noses to despite our faces. but i do think— noses to despite our faces. but i do think that _ noses to despite our faces. but i do think that fujitsu's _ noses to despite our faces. but i do think that fujitsu's reputation - noses to despite our faces. but i do think that fujitsu's reputation has. think that fujitsu's reputation has been _ think that fujitsu's reputation has been seriously— think that fujitsu's reputation has been seriously damaged - think that fujitsu's reputation has been seriously damaged by- think that fujitsu's reputation has been seriously damaged by this l think that fujitsu's reputation has. been seriously damaged by this and that will— been seriously damaged by this and that will play— been seriously damaged by this and that will play a _ been seriously damaged by this and that will play a major— been seriously damaged by this and that will play a major part _ been seriously damaged by this and that will play a major part in - that will play a major part in future — that will play a major part in future procurement - that will play a major part in future procurement issues. i that will play a major part in - future procurement issues. bier? future procurement issues. very briefl , future procurement issues. very briefly, charlotte. _ future procurement issues. very briefly, charlotte. just _ future procurement issues. very briefly, charlotte. just a - future procurement issues. very briefly, charlotte. just a quick i briefly, charlotte. just a quick oint of briefly, charlotte. just a quick point of clarification. - briefly, charlotte. just a quick point of clarification. you - briefly, charlotte. just a quick point of clarification. you said j briefly, charlotte. just a quick i

point of clarification. you said in your earlier answer that there was a feeling by some of the claimants that kind of mass exoneration would mean there was collateral damage for genuinely guilty parties. how do you, if such people exist, ascertain who they are when the evidence against everyone was obviously so problematic? it is not an easy question. i think there _ it is not an easy question. i think there has— it is not an easy question. i think there has been plenty of commentary around _ there has been plenty of commentary around people who are genuinely guilty _ around people who are genuinely guilty~ it— around people who are genuinely guilty. it is a tricky one. is around people who are genuinely guilty. it is a tricky one. is it around people who are genuinely guilty. it is a tricky one.- guilty. it is a tricky one. is it on balance of— guilty. it is a tricky one. is it on balance of probability _ guilty. it is a tricky one. is it on balance of probability or- guilty. it is a tricky one. is it on balance of probability or do - guilty. it is a tricky one. is it on balance of probability or do you have reason to believe specifically there are potentially guilty people within that? it is there are potentially guilty people within that? , ,., ,, there are potentially guilty people within that? , ,, ., within that? it is both. i think one ofthe within that? it is both. i think one of the issues _ within that? it is both. i think one of the issues is _ within that? it is both. i think one of the issues is what _ within that? it is both. i think one of the issues is what does - within that? it is both. i think one of the issues is what does that. of the issues is what does that number— of the issues is what does that number look like? of the issues is what does that numberlook like? it of the issues is what does that number look like? it may be a tiny number— number look like? it may be a tiny numberand— number look like? it may be a tiny numberand a price number look like? it may be a tiny number and a price worth paying. my 'ob number and a price worth paying. my job today— number and a price worth paying. my job today is _ number and a price worth paying. my job today is to convey to this committee of the feeling of the

number— committee of the feeling of the number of my clients which i will reiterate — number of my clients which i will reiterate is — number of my clients which i will reiterate is that they are genuinely overwhelmed in a positive way that there _ overwhelmed in a positive way that there is— overwhelmed in a positive way that there is going to be exoneration of those _ there is going to be exoneration of those that— there is going to be exoneration of those that are genuinely innocent. in a those that are genuinely innocent. in a wider— those that are genuinely innocent. in a wider context than just the narrow— in a wider context than just the narrow interpretation that horizon is intrinsic— narrow interpretation that horizon is intrinsic to the prosecution, rather— is intrinsic to the prosecution, rather than the entire prosecution of strategy, but inevitably this is not an— of strategy, but inevitably this is not an easy subject. it does come with a _ not an easy subject. it does come with a number of caveats and i guess that the _ with a number of caveats and i guess that the devil is very much in the detail— that the devil is very much in the detail of— that the devil is very much in the detail of how this all unfolds. doctor— detail of how this all unfolds. doctor hugdell, you mentioned before that a lot of the victims are suffering from paranoia, post—traumatic disorder, you have seen people spat at in the streets, their kids spat at at school. we have seen people incarcerated. jo

hamilton was threatened with jail. we have seen all of these and we have seen suicides. we have seen all of these difficulties. now in a normal case for compensation, you would have a loss of earnings, future and past loss of earnings, you would have pain and suffering. i am just wondering how you would look at the pain and suffering on this scale, for different individuals who have suffered differently, as a consequence of this situation? it must be extremely complicated, i have to say, £75,000 on this issue is notjust poultry but an absolute insult. i is not 'ust poultry but an absolute insult. ~ ., is not 'ust poultry but an absolute insult. ~' ., ., ., ., insult. i think there are a lot of issues in _ insult. i think there are a lot of issues in your— insult. i think there are a lot of issues in your question - insult. i think there are a lot of| issues in your question because insult. i think there are a lot of. issues in your question because of the 75,000 — issues in your question because of the 75,000 relates to one scheme. there _ the 75,000 relates to one scheme. there is— the 75,000 relates to one scheme. there is a _ the 75,000 relates to one scheme. there is a £600,000 package which relates— there is a £600,000 package which relates to _ there is a £600,000 package which relates to the overturned conviction cases~ _ relates to the overturned conviction cases. every case is determined on

its own— cases. every case is determined on its own merits. every cases determined in a court with ordinary principles— determined in a court with ordinary principles of english law. so every case will _ principles of english law. so every case will never be compensated to account _ case will never be compensated to account for— case will never be compensated to account for the losses that people genuinely— account for the losses that people genuinely suffered. in terms of going _ genuinely suffered. in terms of going forward, the whole idea around the 600th— going forward, the whole idea around the 600th package was a creative solution _ the 600th package was a creative solution which swept up a number of cases _ solution which swept up a number of cases for— solution which swept up a number of cases. for example, someone who was close to _ cases. for example, someone who was close to retirement, that sort of offer _ close to retirement, that sort of offer would be attractive. these are some _ offer would be attractive. these are some of— offer would be attractive. these are some of the things we need to look at to find, — some of the things we need to look at to find, to solve these problems, are creative. — at to find, to solve these problems, are creative, simple solutions. there — are creative, simple solutions. there is— are creative, simple solutions. there is within the way that these compensation claims have been assessed — compensation claims have been assessed an allowance for exemplary damages _ assessed an allowance for exemplary damages to reflect the conduct of post office. but there is another wider— post office. but there is another wider point you raised which occurred _ wider point you raised which occurred to me to mention, is it is notjust— occurred to me to mention, is it is notjust the — occurred to me to mention, is it is not just the sub—postmaster is occurred to me to mention, is it is notjust the sub—postmaster is here that suffered greatly. there is

another— that suffered greatly. there is another class of people that cannot be compensated in any way, their spouses, — be compensated in any way, their spouses, children and parents. the spouses— spouses, children and parents. the spouses who have miscarried because of the _ spouses who have miscarried because of the stress of things. the spouses who have _ of the stress of things. the spouses who have committed suicide because of the _ who have committed suicide because of the stress of things. the kids that have — of the stress of things. the kids that have behavioural disorders which _ that have behavioural disorders which ended up out of school early and whose — which ended up out of school early and whose adult life is now shattered because of that. parents who have — shattered because of that. parents who have died, estranged from family members. _ who have died, estranged from family members, generations of sub—postmaster is, granddad believe the post _ sub—postmaster is, granddad believe the post office over grandson and he has sadly— the post office over grandson and he has sadly died before that relationship can be prepared repaired _ relationship can be prepared repaired —— are repaired. that is another— repaired —— are repaired. that is another strand of this scandal which needs— another strand of this scandal which needs to _ another strand of this scandal which needs to be looked at, in the same way as— needs to be looked at, in the same way as people who were not sub—postmasters but suffered financial — sub—postmasters but suffered financial loss directly and are not compensated a lot at the moment either~ _ compensated a lot at the moment either the — compensated a lot at the moment either. the scandal is in the thousands but it could be in the

tens— thousands but it could be in the tens of— thousands but it could be in the tens of thousands.— thousands but it could be in the tens of thousands. thank you very much indeed. _ tens of thousands. thank you very much indeed. can _ tens of thousands. thank you very much indeed. can i _ tens of thousands. thank you very much indeed. can i ask— tens of thousands. thank you very much indeed. can i ask lord - much indeed. can i ask lord arbuthnot. _ much indeed. can i ask lord arbuthnot, an _ much indeed. can i ask lord arbuthnot, an experienced i much indeed. can i ask lord - arbuthnot, an experienced politician who has been dealing with this for 20 years, why as it taken us so long to get to where we are today? i don't want to say pass... it is a difficult — i don't want to say pass... it is a difficult subject. _ i don't want to say pass... it is a difficult subject. you _ i don't want to say pass... it is a difficult subject. you have - i don't want to say pass... it is al difficult subject. you have people who have — difficult subject. you have people who have been _ difficult subject. you have people who have been convicted - difficult subject. you have people who have been convicted or- difficult subject. you have people i who have been convicted or pleaded guilty— who have been convicted or pleaded guilty to— who have been convicted or pleaded guilty to a _ who have been convicted or pleaded guilty to a crime _ who have been convicted or pleaded guilty to a crime up _ who have been convicted or pleaded guilty to a crime up against - who have been convicted or pleaded guilty to a crime up against the - guilty to a crime up against the most _ guilty to a crime up against the most trusted _ guilty to a crime up against the most trusted brand _ guilty to a crime up against the most trusted brand in - guilty to a crime up against the most trusted brand in the - guilty to a crime up against the . most trusted brand in the country. guilty to a crime up against the - most trusted brand in the country. i think— most trusted brand in the country. i think that _ most trusted brand in the country. i think that is — most trusted brand in the country. i think that is at _ most trusted brand in the country. i think that is at the _ most trusted brand in the country. i think that is at the heart _ most trusted brand in the country. i think that is at the heart of - most trusted brand in the country. i think that is at the heart of it. - think that is at the heart of it. what — think that is at the heart of it. what the _ think that is at the heart of it. what the post _ think that is at the heart of it. what the post office - think that is at the heart of it. what the post office failed . think that is at the heart of it. what the post office failed to| what the post office failed to realise — what the post office failed to realise was _ what the post office failed to realise was that _ what the post office failed to realise was that the - what the post office failed to realise was that the most - what the post office failed to - realise was that the most trusted brand _ realise was that the most trusted brand in— realise was that the most trusted brand in the _ realise was that the most trusted brand in the country— realise was that the most trusted brand in the country was - realise was that the most trusted brand in the country was the - realise was that the most trustedi brand in the country was the most trusted _ brand in the country was the most trusted because _ brand in the country was the most trusted because of— brand in the country was the most trusted because of the _ brand in the country was the mosti trusted because of the relationship that these — trusted because of the relationship that these sub—postmasters - trusted because of the relationship that these sub—postmasters had i trusted because of the relationship. that these sub—postmasters had with their communities. _ that these sub—postmasters had with their communities. it— that these sub—postmasters had with their communities. it was _ that these sub—postmasters had with their communities. it was not - that these sub—postmasters had with their communities. it was not the - their communities. it was not the

most _ their communities. it was not the most trusted _ their communities. it was not the most trusted because _ their communities. it was not the most trusted because of- their communities. it was not the most trusted because of the - most trusted because of the brilliance _ most trusted because of the brilliance of— most trusted because of the brilliance of its _ most trusted because of the| brilliance of its management most trusted because of the i brilliance of its management or most trusted because of the - brilliance of its management or the price of— brilliance of its management or the price of its— brilliance of its management or the price of its stamps _ brilliance of its management or the price of its stamps or— brilliance of its management or the price of its stamps or the _ brilliance of its management or the price of its stamps or the sparkling | price of its stamps or the sparkling nature _ price of its stamps or the sparkling nature of— price of its stamps or the sparkling nature of its — price of its stamps or the sparkling nature of its publicity— price of its stamps or the sparkling nature of its publicity machine. - price of its stamps or the sparkling nature of its publicity machine. it i nature of its publicity machine. it was the _ nature of its publicity machine. it was the relationship _ nature of its publicity machine. it was the relationship between - nature of its publicity machine. it was the relationship between the sub—postmasters _ was the relationship between the sub—postmasters and _ was the relationship between the sub—postmasters and their- sub—postmasters and their communities. _ sub—postmasters and their communities. and - sub—postmasters and their communities. and when. sub—postmasters and their. communities. and when they sub—postmasters and their- communities. and when they were vilified _ communities. and when they were vilified and — communities. and when they were vilified and humiliated, _ communities. and when they were vilified and humiliated, the - communities. and when they were vilified and humiliated, the brandi vilified and humiliated, the brand then rolled — vilified and humiliated, the brand then rolled into— vilified and humiliated, the brand then rolled into overdrive. - vilified and humiliated, the brand then rolled into overdrive. i- vilified and humiliated, the brand then rolled into overdrive. i thinkj then rolled into overdrive. i think that may— then rolled into overdrive. i think that may be _ then rolled into overdrive. i think that may be it _ then rolled into overdrive. i think that may be it. complicated - then rolled into overdrive. i think. that may be it. complicated subject as well, _ that may be it. complicated subject as well, computer— that may be it. complicated subject as well, computer stuff, _ that may be it. complicated subject as well, computer stuff, very - as well, computer stuff, very difficult _ as well, computer stuff, very difficult. ., ~ as well, computer stuff, very difficult. ., ,, , ., , as well, computer stuff, very difficult. ., ~' , ., , . difficult. thank you very much indeed. that _ difficult. thank you very much indeed. that concludes - difficult. thank you very much indeed. that concludes our i difficult. thank you very much i indeed. that concludes our first session. thank you so much to both of you. you have told us today that a tiny number of people have had redress. you have told us that there is red tape that is dragging out the process for months. you have told us that there are hundreds more potential victims out there. you have told us that many of the victims who have had redress may have been short—changed. you have

told us the legislation is potentially welcomed and fujitsu have a role to play in providing some compensation. you have set the stage very well for the evidence we are about to hear and we are very grateful to you for coming and speaking to us this morning. that concludes their session, order, order. so, there we were hearing from the lawyer who has, their solicitor who has been representing a lot of these sub—postmasters in the inquiry and overturning these convictions concerning the failure of the horizon it system. let's now go to the public inquiry and hear what is going on there. sit in silence all day, did you discuss matters which affected your work? we discuss matters which affected your work? ~ ,. , , , discuss matters which affected your work? . ,. , , , , , discuss matters which affected your work? ,. ,, , , , and

work? we discussed things, yes. and wh do ou work? we discussed things, yes. and why do you think— work? we discussed things, yes. and why do you think it _ work? we discussed things, yes. and why do you think it is _ work? we discussed things, yes. and why do you think it is or— work? we discussed things, yes. and why do you think it is or may - work? we discussed things, yes. and why do you think it is or may be - why do you think it is or may be that penny thomas didn't discuss an issue such as this with you? i that penny thomas didn't discuss an issue such as this with you?- issue such as this with you? i don't know. i issue such as this with you? i don't know- i don't _ issue such as this with you? i don't know. i don't know. _ issue such as this with you? i don't know. i don't know. now— issue such as this with you? i don't know. i don't know. now we - issue such as this with you? i don't know. i don't know. now we saw. issue such as this with you? i don't i know. i don't know. now we saw that he received — know. i don't know. now we saw that he received that _ know. i don't know. now we saw that he received that draft _ know. i don't know. now we saw that he received that draft statement - he received that draft statement earlier in your time at the post office, the draft proforma statement that we looked at. that was dated or sent to you on the 14th ofjuly. we are now on the 21st of july when this chain is being sent to you, so not that far after having received that statement... let's now go down too, back down to the parliamentary select committee, which is hearing evidence, has been hearing evidence from the solicitor who was representing many of the cases. we can now hear, this is alan bates, who has been representing many of the sub—postmasters and their quest forjustice. jo

hamilton, x postmistress. their quest forjustice. jo - hamilton, x postmistress. thank their quest forjustice. jo _ hamilton, x postmistress. thank you ve much hamilton, x postmistress. thank you very much indeed. _ hamilton, x postmistress. thank you very much indeed. joe _ hamilton, x postmistress. thank you very much indeed. joe hamilton. - hamilton, x postmistress. thank you very much indeed. joe hamilton. i i hamilton, x postmistress. thank you | very much indeed. joe hamilton. i am joe hamilton--- _ a lack of we are experiencing right now, so we are trying to sort out the technical problem and then we will come back. we have been hearing from this colour parliamentary committee and the questions about the difficulty of speedy compensation for these wrongly convicted sub—postmasters and some of the very broad impact it has had on their lives, notjust their individual lives but those of their spouses, the stress it has caused for their children and also family relationships where for example parents of sub—postmasters may not have believed their children, that they had not defrauded the post office. so this is a very long

running difficulty, of course, that has been faced in the uk with the post office and we are later to hear a little bit from fujitsu, which supplied the software for these sub—postmasters which was problematic and was registering revenues that infect where fictitious customer let's go back to the inquiry. and i know that is painfully slow. they— and i know that is painfully slow. they have — and i know that is painfully slow. they have do literally drill into the minute details of everything they think you might be claiming. it is almost _ they think you might be claiming. it is almost like you are a criminal all over— is almost like you are a criminal all over again. you have tojustify everything — all over again. you have tojustify everything and then you get forensic reports _ everything and then you get forensic reports of— everything and then you get forensic reports of this and that and you put it back— reports of this and that and you put it back into— reports of this and that and you put it back into the machine. then months — it back into the machine. then months later, it comes back with a query _ months later, it comes back with a query you — months later, it comes back with a query. you send it back a month later— query. you send it back a month later again. _ query. you send it back a month lateragain, it query. you send it back a month later again, it comes back. there has to— later again, it comes back. there has to be — later again, it comes back. there has to be a — later again, it comes back. there has to be a way... i don't have access— has to be a way... i don't have access to _ has to be a way... i don't have access to all _ has to be a way... i don't have access to all the data but there must _ access to all the data but there must be — access to all the data but there must be a _ access to all the data but there must be a way where you can see people _ must be a way where you can see people in— must be a way where you can see people in different bands and sort out a _ people in different bands and sort out a simplified version. it when be so costly— out a simplified version. it when be so costly for — out a simplified version. it when be so costly for the government,

either~ — so costly for the government, either. it— so costly for the government, either. ,., , ~' so costly for the government, either. , ,, ., ., either. it sounds like after all the hell ou either. it sounds like after all the hell you have _ either. it sounds like after all the hell you have been _ either. it sounds like after all the hell you have been through, - either. it sounds like after all the hell you have been through, you| either. it sounds like after all the i hell you have been through, you are still going through hell to get justice done? it still going through hell to get justice done?— still going through hell to get justice done? still going through hell to get 'ustice done? , . , ,, justice done? it is a must like you are bein: justice done? it is a must like you are being retried _ justice done? it is a must like you are being retried because - justice done? it is a must like you i are being retried because everything you say— are being retried because everything you say you like, they say, well justified — you say you like, they say, well justified out and justify that. it 'ust justified out and justify that. it just goes— justified out and justify that. it just goes on and on and on. you must be in touch — just goes on and on and on. you must be in touch with _ just goes on and on and on. you must be in touch with others _ just goes on and on and on. you must be in touch with others who _ just goes on and on and on. you must be in touch with others who are - be in touch with others who are having similar experiences? yes. having similar experiences? yes, everything _ having similar experiences? yes, everything has — having similar experiences? yes, everything has to _ having similar experiences? yes, everything has to be _ having similar experiences? yes, everything has to be backed up with paperwork. it isjust nonsense. what paperwork. it is 'ust nonsense. what is the impact — paperwork. it isjust nonsense. what is the impact on _ paperwork. it isjust nonsense. what is the impact on you _ paperwork. it isjust nonsense. what is the impact on you are _ paperwork. it isjust nonsense. twist is the impact on you are having to go through all of that, over and over and over again? i go through all of that, over and over and over again?— go through all of that, over and over and over again? i am pretty much out — over and over again? i am pretty much out the — over and over again? i am pretty much out the other _ over and over again? i am pretty much out the other side, - over and over again? i am pretty much out the other side, so - over and over again? i am pretty much out the other side, so i - over and over again? i am prettyj much out the other side, so i am fighting — much out the other side, so i am fighting for— much out the other side, so i am fighting for the group that still haven't— fighting for the group that still haven't had, or they haven't had... they— haven't had, or they haven't had... they have — haven't had, or they haven't had... they have had virtually nothing. i am not _ they have had virtually nothing. i am not privy to actually what they have _ am not privy to actually what they have had — am not privy to actually what they have had but i have heard they have had tiny— have had but i have heard they have had tiny interims and literally they are in— had tiny interims and literally they are in this — had tiny interims and literally they are in this factory of bureaucracy thatjust — are in this factory of bureaucracy that just swallows are in this factory of bureaucracy thatjust swallows up are in this factory of bureaucracy that just swallows up paperwork. mr bates?

that just swallows up paperwork. bates? have that just swallows up paperwork. iii bates? have you that just swallows up paperwork. m bates? have you heard evidence and experience shared with you of what people are going through to finally get what they are owed in terms of redress? ~ ., ., , ., redress? well, i am only involved with the diallo _ redress? well, i am only involved with the diallo group, _ redress? well, i am only involved with the diallo group, the - redress? well, i am only involved with the diallo group, the group i with the diallo group, the group litigation — with the diallo group, the group litigation order— with the diallo group, the group litigation order group, _ with the diallo group, the group litigation order group, the - with the diallo group, the group litigation order group, the ones| with the diallo group, the group - litigation order group, the ones who brought— litigation order group, the ones who brought the — litigation order group, the ones who brought the court _ litigation order group, the ones who brought the court case _ litigation order group, the ones who brought the court case against - litigation order group, the ones who brought the court case against the i brought the court case against the post office — brought the court case against the post office initially _ brought the court case against the post office initially and _ brought the court case against the post office initially and who - brought the court case against the post office initially and who got i post office initially and who got left behind _ post office initially and who got left behind afterwards, - left behind afterwards, realistically. _ left behind afterwards, realistically. but - left behind afterwards, i realistically. but eventually left behind afterwards, - realistically. but eventually they caught _ realistically. but eventually they caught up — realistically. but eventually they caught up. people... _ realistically. but eventually they caught up. people... people i realistically. but eventually they. caught up. people... people spend realistically. but eventually they- caught up. people... people spend a lot of— caught up. people... people spend a lot of time _ caught up. people... people spend a lot of time again _ caught up. people... people spend a lot of time again with _ caught up. people... people spend a lot of time again with their _ lot of time again with their lawyers _ lot of time again with their lawyers. their— lot of time again with their lawyers. their lawyers i lot of time again with theiri lawyers. their lawyers have lot of time again with their i lawyers. their lawyers have got their— lawyers. their lawyers have got their cases _ lawyers. their lawyers have got their cases already— lawyers. their lawyers have got their cases already sorted. in i lawyers. their lawyers have got- their cases already sorted. in many instances, — their cases already sorted. in many instances, their— their cases already sorted. in many instances, their cases _ their cases already sorted. in many instances, their cases have - their cases already sorted. in many instances, their cases have been. instances, their cases have been submitted — instances, their cases have been submitted to _ instances, their cases have been submitted to the _ instances, their cases have been submitted to the department. i instances, their cases have been. submitted to the department. but they are _ submitted to the department. but they are sat— submitted to the department. but they are sat there, _ submitted to the department. but they are sat there, they— submitted to the department. but they are sat there, they are - submitted to the department. but they are sat there, they are not i they are sat there, they are not moving — they are sat there, they are not moving through _ they are sat there, they are not moving through. recently, i they are sat there, they are not moving through. recently, we. they are sat there, they are not i moving through. recently, we were given— moving through. recently, we were given assurances _ moving through. recently, we were given assurances that _ moving through. recently, we were given assurances that after - moving through. recently, we were given assurances that after 40 i given assurances that after 40 working — given assurances that after 40 working days _ given assurances that after 40 working days that _ given assurances that after 40 working days that cases - given assurances that after 40 working days that cases would j working days that cases would receive — working days that cases would receive a — working days that cases would receive a first _ working days that cases would receive a first offer. _ working days that cases would receive a first offer. well, i receive a first offer. well, generally, _ receive a first offer. well,

generally, i_ receive a first offer. well, generally, i know- receive a first offer. well, generally, i know that - receive a first offer. well, i generally, i know that most receive a first offer. well, - generally, i know that most people haven't _ generally, i know that most people haven't had — generally, i know that most people haven't had a — generally, i know that most people haven't had a first _ generally, i know that most people haven't had a first offer. _ generally, i know that most people haven't had a first offer. i- generally, i know that most people haven't had a first offer. i can - haven't had a first offer. i can speak— haven't had a first offer. i can speak first _ haven't had a first offer. i can speak first hand _ haven't had a first offer. i can speak first hand about - haven't had a first offer. i can speak first hand about my. haven't had a first offer. i can - speak first hand about my personal case~ _ speak first hand about my personal am that — speak first hand about my personal am that was _ speak first hand about my personal case. that was submitted - speak first hand about my personal case. that was submitted towardsi speak first hand about my personal i case. that was submitted towards the beginning _ case. that was submitted towards the beginning of— case. that was submitted towards the beginning of october. _ case. that was submitted towards the beginning of october. i— case. that was submitted towards the beginning of october. i mean - case. that was submitted towards the beginning of october. i mean today. beginning of october. i mean today it wiii— beginning of october. i mean today it will be _ beginning of october. i mean today it will be the — beginning of october. i mean today it will be the 66th _ beginning of october. i mean today it will be the 66th day, _ beginning of october. i mean today it will be the 66th day, working - it will be the 66th day, working day, _ it will be the 66th day, working day, allowing _ it will be the 66th day, working day, allowing for— it will be the 66th day, working day, allowing for christmas - it will be the 66th day, workingi day, allowing for christmas and it will be the 66th day, working - day, allowing for christmas and new yeai’, _ day, allowing for christmas and new year, and _ day, allowing for christmas and new year, and i_ day, allowing for christmas and new year, and i am— day, allowing for christmas and new year, and i am still— day, allowing for christmas and new year, and i am still waiting - day, allowing for christmas and new year, and i am still waiting for- day, allowing for christmas and new year, and i am still waiting for my. year, and i am still waiting for my first offer— year, and i am still waiting for my first offer and _ year, and i am still waiting for my first offer and i— year, and i am still waiting for my first offer and i am _ year, and i am still waiting for my first offer and i am being - year, and i am still waiting for my first offer and i am being told - year, and i am still waiting for my first offer and i am being told i. first offer and i am being told i won't — first offer and i am being told i won't receive _ first offer and i am being told i won't receive anything, - first offer and i am being told i won't receive anything, or- first offer and i am being told i won't receive anything, or a i first offer and i am being told i. won't receive anything, or a first offer. _ won't receive anything, or a first offer. untit— won't receive anything, or a first offer, until the _ won't receive anything, or a first offer, until the end _ won't receive anything, or a first offer, until the end of— won't receive anything, or a first offer, until the end of this- won't receive anything, or a first. offer, until the end of this month, which _ offer, until the end of this month, which witt— offer, until the end of this month, which will be — offer, until the end of this month, which will be 77 _ offer, until the end of this month, which will be 77 working _ offer, until the end of this month, which will be 77 working days, - offer, until the end of this month, which will be 77 working days, sol which will be 77 working days, so almost _ which will be 77 working days, so almost double _ which will be 77 working days, so almost double the _ which will be 77 working days, so almost double the expected - which will be 77 working days, sol almost double the expected time. after everything _ almost double the expected time. after everything you _ almost double the expected time. after everything you have - almost double the expected time. after everything you have been i after everything you have been through, after all of this time, the delays are still dragging on? yes the stuff i hear _ delays are still dragging on? yes the stuff i hear a lot of stories that _ the stuff i hear a lot of stories that government _ the stuff i hear a lot of stories that government lawyers, - the stuff i hear a lot of stories that government lawyers, alli the stuff i hear a lot of stories i that government lawyers, all the firms— that government lawyers, all the firms the — that government lawyers, all the firms the government _ that government lawyers, all the firms the government are - that government lawyers, all the firms the government are using i that government lawyers, all the . firms the government are using for lawyers, _ firms the government are using for lawyers, not — firms the government are using for lawyers. not happy— firms the government are using for lawyers, not happy about _ firms the government are using for lawyers, not happy about working i lawyers, not happy about working extra _ lawyers, not happy about working extra hours— lawyers, not happy about working extra hours or— lawyers, not happy about working extra hours or working _ lawyers, not happy about working extra hours or working at -

lawyers, not happy about working l extra hours or working at weekends or working — extra hours or working at weekends or working evenings. _ extra hours or working at weekends or working evenings. but— extra hours or working at weekends or working evenings. but obviouslyi or working evenings. but obviously there _ or working evenings. but obviously there isn't— or working evenings. but obviously there isn't enough— or working evenings. but obviously there isn't enough of— or working evenings. but obviously there isn't enough of a _ or working evenings. but obviously there isn't enough of a resource i there isn't enough of a resource treing _ there isn't enough of a resource treing put— there isn't enough of a resource treing put in— there isn't enough of a resource treing put in at— there isn't enough of a resource being put in at that _ there isn't enough of a resource being put in at that end - there isn't enough of a resource being put in at that end to - there isn't enough of a resource i being put in at that end to actually deal with— being put in at that end to actually deal with these _ being put in at that end to actually deal with these cases. _ being put in at that end to actually deal with these cases. that - being put in at that end to actually deal with these cases. that is - being put in at that end to actually| deal with these cases. that is what is really— deal with these cases. that is what is really frustrating. _ deal with these cases. that is what is really frustrating. i— deal with these cases. that is what is really frustrating. i know- deal with these cases. that is what is really frustrating. i know the - is really frustrating. i know the lawyers — is really frustrating. i know the lawyers that _ is really frustrating. i know the lawyers that i— is really frustrating. i know the lawyers that i am _ is really frustrating. i know the lawyers that i am using, - is really frustrating. i know the lawyers that i am using, which| is really frustrating. i know the i lawyers that i am using, which are dealing _ lawyers that i am using, which are dealing with — lawyers that i am using, which are dealing with a _ lawyers that i am using, which are dealing with a lot _ lawyers that i am using, which are dealing with a lot of— lawyers that i am using, which are dealing with a lot of cases, - lawyers that i am using, which are dealing with a lot of cases, have l lawyers that i am using, which are dealing with a lot of cases, have ai dealing with a lot of cases, have a huge _ dealing with a lot of cases, have a huge team — dealing with a lot of cases, have a huge team working _ dealing with a lot of cases, have a huge team working on _ dealing with a lot of cases, have a huge team working on it- dealing with a lot of cases, have a huge team working on it and - dealing with a lot of cases, have a huge team working on it and they| dealing with a lot of cases, have a i huge team working on it and they are piling _ huge team working on it and they are piling the _ huge team working on it and they are piling the cases — huge team working on it and they are piling the cases through. _ huge team working on it and they are piling the cases through. but - huge team working on it and they are piling the cases through. but they- piling the cases through. but they are just _ piling the cases through. but they are just not — piling the cases through. but they are just not moving, _ piling the cases through. but they are just not moving, they- piling the cases through. but they are just not moving, they hit - piling the cases through. but they are just not moving, they hit a - piling the cases through. but they. are just not moving, they hit a dead end once _ are just not moving, they hit a dead end once they— are just not moving, they hit a dead end once they go— are just not moving, they hit a dead end once they go into _ are just not moving, they hit a dead end once they go into the _ end once they go into the department. _ end once they go into the department. 50 - end once they go into the department.— end once they go into the deartment. ., i. end once they go into the deartment. . i. ., department. so are you saying that the --eole department. so are you saying that the peeple who _ department. so are you saying that the people who are _ department. so are you saying that the people who are processing - department. so are you saying that the people who are processing the| the people who are processing the claim are not busting a gut to actually get the job done? filth. claim are not busting a gut to actually get the job done? actually get the 'ob done? oh, gosh, es. after actually get the 'ob done? oh, gosh, yes. after my — actually get the job done? oh, gosh, yes. after my claim _ actually get the job done? oh, gosh, yes. after my claim had _ actually get the job done? oh, gosh, yes. after my claim had gone - actually get the job done? oh, gosh, yes. after my claim had gone in, - actually get the job done? oh, gosh, yes. after my claim had gone in, and ntine— yes. after my claim had gone in, and mine is— yes. after my claim had gone in, and mine isjust — yes. after my claim had gone in, and mine isjust in — yes. after my claim had gone in, and mine isjust in the _ yes. after my claim had gone in, and mine isjust in the queue _ yes. after my claim had gone in, and mine isjust in the queue like - mine isjust in the queue like everyone _ mine isjust in the queue like everyone else's, _ mine isjust in the queue like everyone else's, after- mine isjust in the queue like everyone else's, after mine i mine isjust in the queue like i everyone else's, after mine had mine isjust in the queue like - everyone else's, after mine had gone in, everyone else's, after mine had gone in. it— everyone else's, after mine had gone in. it took— everyone else's, after mine had gone in. it tookthem— everyone else's, after mine had gone in, it took them i— everyone else's, after mine had gone in, it took them i think— everyone else's, after mine had gone in, it took them i think it— everyone else's, after mine had gone in, it took them i think it was- everyone else's, after mine had gone in, it took them i think it was 53 - in, it took them i think it was 53 days— in, it took them i think it was 53 days before _ in, it took them i think it was 53 days before they— in, it took them i think it was 53 days before they asked - in, it took them i think it was 53 days before they asked three i in, it took them i think it was 53 i days before they asked three very simple _ days before they asked three very simple questions. _ days before they asked three very simple questions. i— days before they asked three very simple questions. i mean, - days before they asked three very simple questions. i mean, it- days before they asked three very simple questions. i mean, it is i simple questions. i mean, it is madness, _ simple questions. i mean, it is madness, the _ simple questions. i mean, it is

madness, the whole _ simple questions. i mean, it is madness, the whole thing - simple questions. i mean, it is madness, the whole thing is. simple questions. i mean, it is - madness, the whole thing is madness. and there _ madness, the whole thing is madness. and there is _ madness, the whole thing is madness. and there is no — madness, the whole thing is madness. and there is no transparency _ madness, the whole thing is madness. and there is no transparency behind i and there is no transparency behind it, and there is no transparency behind it. which— and there is no transparency behind it. which is— and there is no transparency behind it, which is even— and there is no transparency behind it, which is even more _ and there is no transparency behind it, which is even more frustrating. l it, which is even more frustrating. we do _ it, which is even more frustrating. we do not — it, which is even more frustrating. we do not know— it, which is even more frustrating. we do not know what _ it, which is even more frustrating. we do not know what is— it, which is even more frustrating. | we do not know what is happening it, which is even more frustrating. i we do not know what is happening to these _ we do not know what is happening to these cases— we do not know what is happening to these cases once _ we do not know what is happening to these cases once they— we do not know what is happening to these cases once they disappear- we do not know what is happening to these cases once they disappear in i these cases once they disappear in there _ these cases once they disappear in there i— these cases once they disappear in there. ~ ., these cases once they disappear in there. ~' ., ~' these cases once they disappear in there. ~ ., ,, . , there. i know we like red tape in this country _ there. i know we like red tape in this country but _ there. i know we like red tape in this country but this _ there. i know we like red tape in this country but this is _ there. i know we like red tape in this country but this is insane. it is bogged down, they are absolutely bogged _ is bogged down, they are absolutely bogged down — is bogged down, they are absolutely bogged down in _ is bogged down, they are absolutely bogged down in red _ is bogged down, they are absolutely bogged down in red tape. _ bogged down in red tape. welcome _ bogged down in red tape. welcome to— bogged down in red tape. welcome to you - bogged down in red tape. welcome to you both. - bogged down in red tape. i welcome to you both. the bogged down in red tape. - welcome to you both. the itv bogged down in red tape. _ welcome to you both. the itv drama has undoubtedly provoked a huge response from the public all across the country. empathy for the incredible, dreadful situation you have been in for such a long time and outrage on the same thing. one of the things that strikes me and i think strikes a lot of people is that postmaster after postmaster will tell you the same story. they were in the same position, telling the truth, telling the truth and were not believed. in fact, we are told that you are the only one. if

people have watched that drama and are thinking to themselves, with incredulity, how on earth could this happen, what is your assessment and what would you tell people who watched that, from your experience, how on earth could that have happened? alan, can i start with you? happened? alan, can i start with ou? ., ., . , , you? how would it happen...? i really think— you? how would it happen...? i really think it _ you? how would it happen...? i really think it was _ you? how would it happen...? i really think it was because - you? how would it happen...? i really think it was because of i you? how would it happen...? i l really think it was because of post office _ really think it was because of post office wheh _ really think it was because of post office. when you _ really think it was because of post office. when you take _ really think it was because of post office. when you take on - really think it was because of post office. when you take on a - really think it was because of post. office. when you take on a sub—post office. _ office. when you take on a sub—post office. you _ office. when you take on a sub—post office. you are — office. when you take on a sub—post office, you are actually— office. when you take on a sub—post office, you are actually investing - office. when you take on a sub—post office, you are actually investing a l office, you are actually investing a large _ office, you are actually investing a large amount _ office, you are actually investing a large amount of— office, you are actually investing a large amount of money— office, you are actually investing a large amount of money in- office, you are actually investing a large amount of money in that - large amount of money in that business _ large amount of money in that business as_ large amount of money in that business. as happened - large amount of money in that business. as happened in - large amount of money in that business. as happened in my. large amount of money in that - business. as happened in my case, when _ business. as happened in my case, when they— business. as happened in my case, when they felt _ business. as happened in my case, when they fell out _ business. as happened in my case, when they fell out with _ business. as happened in my case, when they fell out with me, - business. as happened in my case, when they fell out with me, they i when they fell out with me, they walked _ when they fell out with me, they walked off— when they fell out with me, they walked off with _ when they fell out with me, they walked off with that _ when they fell out with me, they walked off with that amount - when they fell out with me, they walked off with that amount of. walked off with that amount of money — walked off with that amount of money i— walked off with that amount of money. ithink— walked off with that amount of money. i think a _ walked off with that amount of money. i think a lot— walked off with that amount of money. i think a lot of- walked off with that amount of money. i think a lot of people i walked off with that amount of- money. i think a lot of people feel there _ money. i think a lot of people feel there is— money. i think a lot of people feel there is a — money. i think a lot of people feel there is a financial— money. i think a lot of people feel there is a financial gun _ money. i think a lot of people feel there is a financial gun held - money. i think a lot of people feel there is a financial gun held to- there is a financial gun held to their— there is a financial gun held to their head _ there is a financial gun held to their head if— there is a financial gun held to their head if they— there is a financial gun held to their head if they start - there is a financial gun held to their head if they start kicking | there is a financial gun held to. their head if they start kicking off or start _ their head if they start kicking off or start raising _ their head if they start kicking off or start raising too— their head if they start kicking off or start raising too many- their head if they start kicking off. or start raising too many problems with the _ or start raising too many problems with the post— or start raising too many problems with the post office. _ or start raising too many problems with the post office. and - or start raising too many problems with the post office. and cases- or start raising too many problems| with the post office. and cases like mine _ with the post office. and cases like mine and _ with the post office. and cases like mine and tees. _ with the post office. and cases like mine and lee's, they— with the post office. and cases like mine and lee's, they become - with the post office. and cases likei mine and lee's, they become pretty hi-h mine and lee's, they become pretty high profile — mine and lee's, they become pretty high profile irr— mine and lee's, they become pretty high profile in the _ mine and lee's, they become pretty high profile in the post—

mine and lee's, they become pretty high profile in the post office - mine and lee's, they become pretty high profile in the post office like i high profile in the post office like to push— high profile in the post office like to push them _ high profile in the post office like to push them through, _ high profile in the post office like to push them through, or- high profile in the post office like to push them through, or used i high profile in the post office like i to push them through, or used alike to push them through, or used alike to push— to push them through, or used alike to push them — to push them through, or used alike to push them as _ to push them through, or used alike to push them as examples, - to push them through, or used alike to push them as examples, as- to push them as examples, as warnings — to push them as examples, as warnings to— to push them as examples, as warnings to others _ to push them as examples, as warnings to others to - to push them as examples, as warnings to others to keep - to push them as examples, as. warnings to others to keep your to push them as examples, as- warnings to others to keep your head down _ warnings to others to keep your head down and _ warnings to others to keep your head down and do — warnings to others to keep your head down and do as— warnings to others to keep your head down and do as you _ warnings to others to keep your head down and do as you are _ warnings to others to keep your head down and do as you are told. - warnings to others to keep your head down and do as you are told. what i down and do as you are told. what about you? — down and do as you are told. what about you? i _ down and do as you are told. what about you? i was _ down and do as you are told. what about you? i was the _ down and do as you are told. what about you? i was the opposite, - down and do as you are told. what. about you? i was the opposite, they convinced me _ about you? i was the opposite, they convinced me it _ about you? i was the opposite, they convinced me it was _ about you? i was the opposite, they convinced me it was all— about you? i was the opposite, they convinced me it was all my - about you? i was the opposite, they convinced me it was all my fault - about you? i was the opposite, they i convinced me it was all my fault and i convinced me it was all my fault and iwasn't _ convinced me it was all my fault and iwasn't tech — convinced me it was all my fault and i wasn't tech savvy at all back 20 years _ i wasn't tech savvy at all back 20 years ago — i wasn't tech savvy at all back 20 years ago. they convinced me it was my fault _ years ago. they convinced me it was my fault. that was kind of before the days — my fault. that was kind of before the days of social media, so you felt youm — the days of social media, so you fettyoum i_ the days of social media, so you felt you... i really felt i was alone _ felt you... i really felt i was atone~ i_ felt you... i really felt i was alone. i thought i must have pressed something. _ alone. i thought i must have pressed something, reversed something, then doubted _ something, reversed something, then doubled the next day. ijust thought i had made a hash of it. but when ultimately— i had made a hash of it. but when uttimatety i — i had made a hash of it. but when ultimately i went to court and it made _ ultimately i went to court and it made the — ultimately i went to court and it made the national papers and people ran. made the national papers and people rang me _ made the national papers and people rang me up— made the national papers and people rang me up after seeing the piece in the paper— rang me up after seeing the piece in the paper and rang me up after seeing the piece in the paperand i rang me up after seeing the piece in the paper and i realised it wasn't me, the paper and i realised it wasn't me. it _ the paper and i realised it wasn't me, it wasn'tjust me, then itjust makes _ me, it wasn'tjust me, then itjust makes you — me, it wasn'tjust me, then itjust makes you so angry that they had titeratty _ makes you so angry that they had literally gas lit me for about three years— literally gas lit me for about three

years and — literally gas lit me for about three years and turned me, well, not into a basket— years and turned me, well, not into a basket case but pretty much. then back tit _ a basket case but pretty much. then back tit a _ a basket case but pretty much. then back lit a fire. thank goodness we had the _ back lit a fire. thank goodness we had the publicity because we joined up. had the publicity because we joined uu but— had the publicity because we joined up. but that is wrong, but it has taken _ up. but that is wrong, but it has taken this— up. but that is wrong, but it has taken this long and this much money to get— taken this long and this much money to get to _ taken this long and this much money to get to where we are today. you know, _ to get to where we are today. you know. i_ to get to where we are today. you know, i know a lot of the group and they are _ know, i know a lot of the group and they are literally falling apart, waiting — they are literally falling apart, waiting for the end of this, to be able _ waiting for the end of this, to be able to— waiting for the end of this, to be able to put— waiting for the end of this, to be able to put it behind them. so, — able to put it behind them. so. yes, _ able to put it behind them. so, yes, so the turning point is not feeling alone and actually... we use terms like the post office and fujitsu, but actually, you are dealing, when you are going through this, you are still going through this, you are still going through this, you are dealing with individual people. can you explain how that felt, that you are up against me were talking to individual people but you couldn't get through to the big institutions that you are actually dealing with? it is very hard to imagine how hard that must have been. and

it is very hard to imagine how hard that must have been.— that must have been. and a lot of --eole that must have been. and a lot of people then _ that must have been. and a lot of people then went _ that must have been. and a lot of people then went to _ that must have been. and a lot of people then went to their- that must have been. and a lot of people then went to their mps - people then went to their mps because — people then went to their mps because that was the brainchild. i was lucky— because that was the brainchild. i was lucky because i had james but not att— was lucky because i had james but not all mps listen. you think the post _ not all mps listen. you think the post office is trusted and they uteaded — post office is trusted and they pleaded guilty in court, so who believes— pleaded guilty in court, so who believes you? i was luckyjames was curious— believes you? i was luckyjames was curious and — believes you? i was luckyjames was curious and had had some dealings with the _ curious and had had some dealings with the chinook failings, so he got curious— with the chinook failings, so he got curious because he had four people in his— curious because he had four people in his constituency. but i think it is the _ in his constituency. but i think it is the feeling that nobody is listening, you know? when you say you have _ listening, you know? when you say you have a — listening, you know? when you say you have a problem, you just need people _ you have a problem, you just need people to — you have a problem, you just need people to listen. and _ people to listen. and do you think, allen, that your experiences and this process still going on and the inquiry, do you think that will help stop miscarriages ofjustice and repetitions of this kind of scandal —— alan?

repetitions of this kind of scandal -- alan? �* , ., ., , . . -- alan? broadly or other instances? in which -- alan? broadly or other instances? in which case. _ -- alan? broadly or other instances? in which case. i— -- alan? broadly or other instances? in which case, i hope _ -- alan? broadly or other instances? in which case, i hope it _ -- alan? broadly or other instances? in which case, i hope it sends - -- alan? broadly or other instances? in which case, i hope it sends a - in which case, i hope it sends a warning — in which case, i hope it sends a warning shot _ in which case, i hope it sends a warning shot to _ in which case, i hope it sends a warning shot to these - in which case, i hope it sends a warning shot to these big - warning shot to these big organisations— warning shot to these big organisations to - warning shot to these big organisations to say - warning shot to these big organisations to say what warning shot to these big - organisations to say what they see and decide — organisations to say what they see and decide on— organisations to say what they see and decide on the _ organisations to say what they see and decide on the way— organisations to say what they see and decide on the way they - organisations to say what they see and decide on the way they work l and decide on the way they work realty— and decide on the way they work really affects _ and decide on the way they work really affects people _ and decide on the way they work really affects people write - and decide on the way they work really affects people write down| and decide on the way they work l really affects people write down at the front _ really affects people write down at the front tine — really affects people write down at the front line of _ really affects people write down at the front line of their— the front line of their organisations. - the front line of their organisations. i- the front line of theirj organisations. i think the front line of their. organisations. i think it the front line of their- organisations. i think it is one the front line of their— organisations. i think it is one of the faitings _ organisations. i think it is one of the failings that _ organisations. i think it is one of the failings that there _ organisations. i think it is one of the failings that there has - organisations. i think it is one of the failings that there has beeni the failings that there has been with a _ the failings that there has been with a tot — the failings that there has been with a tot of— the failings that there has been with a lot of the _ the failings that there has been with a lot of the other- the failings that there has been with a lot of the other things, l the failings that there has been i with a lot of the other things, like the banking — with a lot of the other things, like the banking scandal, _ with a lot of the other things, like the banking scandal, people - with a lot of the other things, like the banking scandal, people in. with a lot of the other things, like i the banking scandal, people injobs of high _ the banking scandal, people injobs of high responsibility, _ the banking scandal, people injobs of high responsibility, they- the banking scandal, people injobs of high responsibility, they are - the banking scandal, people injobs of high responsibility, they are not| of high responsibility, they are not being _ of high responsibility, they are not being held — of high responsibility, they are not being held to— of high responsibility, they are not being held to account _ of high responsibility, they are not being held to account at _ of high responsibility, they are not being held to account at the - of high responsibility, they are not being held to account at the end . of high responsibility, they are not| being held to account at the end of the day _ being held to account at the end of the day. this. _ being held to account at the end of the day. this. i'm _ being held to account at the end of the day. this, i'm hoping - being held to account at the end of the day. this, i'm hoping in- being held to account at the end of the day. this, i'm hoping in this i the day. this, i'm hoping in this particular— the day. this, i'm hoping in this particular instance, _ the day. this, i'm hoping in this particular instance, that - the day. this, i'm hoping in this particular instance, that people| the day. this, i'm hoping in this i particular instance, that people are held to _ particular instance, that people are held to account _ particular instance, that people are held to account and _ particular instance, that people are held to account and that _ particular instance, that people are held to account and that will - held to account and that will demonstrate _ held to account and that will demonstrate to— held to account and that will demonstrate to us _ held to account and that will demonstrate to us to - held to account and that will demonstrate to us to keep l held to account and that will. demonstrate to us to keep an held to account and that will - demonstrate to us to keep an eye on the bait— demonstrate to us to keep an eye on the bait with — demonstrate to us to keep an eye on the ball with what _ demonstrate to us to keep an eye on the ball with what you _ demonstrate to us to keep an eye on the ball with what you are _ demonstrate to us to keep an eye on the ball with what you are doing. - demonstrate to us to keep an eye on the ball with what you are doing. del the ball with what you are doing. d: you the ball with what you are doing. you think this experience will help in the future?

hopefully if people are held to account — hopefully if people are held to account it might one them not to hopefully if people are held to account it mi-ht one them not to do account it might one them not to do this to _ account it might one them not to do this to ordinary people again. can we 'ust this to ordinary people again. can we just check, when it comes to fujitsu, what is their culpability in this and what is the compensation that you think they owe, frankly, to the british taxpayer and indeed to you? i the british taxpayer and indeed to ou? ~ . . , the british taxpayer and indeed to ou? .. . , , ~ the british taxpayer and indeed to ou? «' , , , . ., you? i think this is very much a ruestion you? i think this is very much a question for — you? i think this is very much a question for the _ you? i think this is very much a question for the inquiry - you? i think this is very much a question for the inquiry to - you? i think this is very much a i question for the inquiry to answer. my gut _ question for the inquiry to answer. my gut feeling _ question for the inquiry to answer. my gut feeling on _ question for the inquiry to answer. my gut feeling on this, _ question for the inquiry to answer. my gut feeling on this, having - my gut feeling on this, having tooked — my gut feeling on this, having looked at _ my gut feeling on this, having looked at lots _ my gut feeling on this, having looked at lots of _ my gut feeling on this, having looked at lots of paperwork. my gut feeling on this, having. looked at lots of paperwork over my gut feeling on this, having - looked at lots of paperwork over the years. _ looked at lots of paperwork over the years. how — looked at lots of paperwork over the years. how much _ looked at lots of paperwork over the years, how much did _ looked at lots of paperwork over the years, how much did post _ looked at lots of paperwork over the years, how much did post office - years, how much did post office reatty _ years, how much did post office really know _ years, how much did post office really know in _ years, how much did post office really know in the _ years, how much did post office really know in the early- years, how much did post office really know in the early days . years, how much did post officel really know in the early days and how much — really know in the early days and how much did _ really know in the early days and how much did government- really know in the early days and how much did government reallyj really know in the early days and - how much did government really know in the _ how much did government really know in the early— how much did government really know in the early days— how much did government really know in the early days about _ how much did government really know in the early days about what _ how much did government really know in the early days about what was - in the early days about what was happening — in the early days about what was happening at _ in the early days about what was happening at fujitsu? _ in the early days about what was happening at fujitsu? i- in the early days about what was happening at fujitsu? i think- happening at fujitsu? i think everyone _ happening at fujitsu? i think everyone is— happening at fujitsu? i think everyone is going _ happening at fujitsu? i think everyone is going to - happening at fujitsu? i think everyone is going to be - happening at fujitsu? i think- everyone is going to be surprised about— everyone is going to be surprised about how— everyone is going to be surprised about how much _ everyone is going to be surprised about how much was _ everyone is going to be surprised about how much was known. - everyone is going to be surprised about how much was known. but| everyone is going to be surprised - about how much was known. but that is for— about how much was known. but that is for the _ about how much was known. but that is for the inquiry— about how much was known. but that is for the inquiry to _

about how much was known. but that is for the inquiry to establish. -