might one them not to hopefully if people are held to account it miht one them not to do account it might one them not to do this to _ account it might one them not to do this to ordinary people again. can we “ust this to ordinary people again. (1531 we just check, when it comes to fujitsu, what is their culpability in this and what is the compensation that you think they owe, frankly, to the british taxpayer and indeed to you? i the british taxpayer and indeed to ou? ~ , , , the british taxpayer and indeed to ou?

is for the inquiry to establish. - about how much was known. but that is for the inquiry to establish. fire - is for the inquiry to establish. are ou is for the inquiry to establish. you comfortable with taxpayers is for the inquiry to establish— you comfortable with taxpayers money being spent on fujitsu right now? i being spent on fujitsu right now? i don't know what the other options are. don't know what the other options are do _ don't know what the other options are do we — don't know what the other options are do we have _ don't know what the other options are. do we have other— don't know what the other options are. do we have other big - don't know what the other options are. do we have other big enough| don't know what the other options l are. do we have other big enough it sopptiers_ are. do we have other big enough it sopptiers in— are. do we have other big enough it sopptiers in this _ are. do we have other big enough it suppliers in this country? _ are. do we have other big enough it suppliers in this country? i- are. do we have other big enough it suppliers in this country? i believe i suppliers in this country? i believe they are _ suppliers in this country? i believe they are involved _ suppliers in this country? i believe they are involved in _ suppliers in this country? i believe they are involved in defence - suppliers in this country? i believe . they are involved in defence systems and a _ they are involved in defence systems and a whole — they are involved in defence systems and a whole host _ they are involved in defence systems and a whole host of— they are involved in defence systems and a whole host of other _ they are involved in defence systems and a whole host of other systems i they are involved in defence systems| and a whole host of other systems as well. �* , . . . . and a whole host of other systems as well. ., and a whole host of other systems as well. . i, ,, . ., . and a whole host of other systems as well. ., well. any perspective on that? i re well. any perspective on that? i pretty much _ well. any perspective on that? i pretty much concur _ well. any perspective on that? i pretty much concur with - well. any perspective on that? i pretty much concur with that, l well. any perspective on that? i i pretty much concur with that, but, you know — pretty much concur with that, but, you know i_ pretty much concur with that, but, you know... i guess the inquiry is where _ you know... i guess the inquiry is where it— you know... i guess the inquiry is where it is— you know... i guess the inquiry is where it is at. _ you know... i guess the inquiry is where it is at, he will find out who was culpable on the journey because it goes— was culpable on the journey because it goes back so long, he needs to -et it goes back so long, he needs to get to— it goes back so long, he needs to get to the — it goes back so long, he needs to get to the bottom of who knew what, when, _ get to the bottom of who knew what, when, and _ get to the bottom of who knew what, when, and if — get to the bottom of who knew what, when, and ifanything get to the bottom of who knew what, when, and if anything criminal has taken _ when, and if anything criminal has taken place, they should face prosecution and, if it is proved they— prosecution and, if it is proved they were _ prosecution and, if it is proved they were culpable, they should pay their share — they were culpable, they should pay their share of compensation. ifi

their share of compensation. if i ma , their share of compensation. if i may. just _ their share of compensation. if i may. just to _ their share of compensation. if i may, just to add something to that, i may, just to add something to that, i mean. _ may, just to add something to that, i mean. you — may, just to add something to that, irnean. you are _ may, just to add something to that, i mean, you are going _ may, just to add something to that, i mean, you are going back- may, just to add something to that, i mean, you are going back 20 - may, just to add something to that, i mean, you are going back 20 odd. i mean, you are going back 20 odd years. _ i mean, you are going back 20 odd years. trut— i mean, you are going back 20 odd years. but i— i mean, you are going back 20 odd years, but i should _ i mean, you are going back 20 odd years, but i should imagine - i mean, you are going back 20 odd years, but i should imagine a - i mean, you are going back 20 odd i years, but i should imagine a number of staff— years, but i should imagine a number of staff will _ years, but i should imagine a number of staff will have _ years, but i should imagine a number of staff will have changed _ years, but i should imagine a number of staff will have changed place. - of staff will have changed place. there _ of staff will have changed place. there will— of staff will have changed place. there will have _ of staff will have changed place. there will have been _ of staff will have changed place. there will have been big - of staff will have changed place. i there will have been big changes in the company — there will have been big changes in the company. so— there will have been big changes in the company. so holding _ there will have been big changes in the company. so holding those - the company. so holding those currentty — the company. so holding those currentty to _ the company. so holding those currently to account _ the company. so holding those currently to account for - the company. so holding those currently to account for what . the company. so holding those - currently to account for what people did 20 _ currently to account for what people did 20 years — currently to account for what people did 20 years ago _ currently to account for what people did 20 years ago might— currently to account for what people did 20 years ago might seem - currently to account for what people did 20 years ago might seem a - currently to account for what people | did 20 years ago might seem a little stiff. did 20 years ago might seem a little stiff if— did 20 years ago might seem a little stiff if they— did 20 years ago might seem a little stiff. if they can _ did 20 years ago might seem a little stiff. if they can actually _ did 20 years ago might seem a little stiff. if they can actually show - stiff. if they can actually show that the — stiff. if they can actually show that the organisation - stiff. if they can actually show that the organisation has - stiff. if they can actually show - that the organisation has changed and that— that the organisation has changed and that it — that the organisation has changed and that it is _ that the organisation has changed and that it is willing _ that the organisation has changed and that it is willing to _ that the organisation has changed and that it is willing to own - that the organisation has changed and that it is willing to own up- that the organisation has changed| and that it is willing to own up and look after. — and that it is willing to own up and look after, compensate _ and that it is willing to own up and look after, compensate or- and that it is willing to own up and look after, compensate or repay . look after, compensate or repay government— look after, compensate or repay government for— look after, compensate or repay government for what _ look after, compensate or repay government for what has - look after, compensate or repay i government for what has happened look after, compensate or repay - government for what has happened in the past _ government for what has happened in the ast. . ~ i. government for what has happened in the past-_ you _ government for what has happened in the past._ you took- government for what has happened in the past._ you took your i the past. thank you. you took your case to the — the past. thank you. you took your case to the court _ the past. thank you. you took your case to the court of— the past. thank you. you took your case to the court of appeal- the past. thank you. you took your case to the court of appeal in - the past. thank you. you took your case to the court of appeal in the l case to the court of appeal in the end. did you do that via the criminal cases review commission? yes, eventually. it took a long

time — yes, eventually. it took a long time. ~ . . . yes, eventually. it took a long time. ~ . , . ., time. what was your experience of the process? _ time. what was your experience of the process? well, _ time. what was your experience of the process? well, if— time. what was your experience of the process? well, if i _ time. what was your experience of the process? well, ifi am - time. what was your experience of the process? well, ifi am honest, j time. what was your experience of| the process? well, ifi am honest, i a- lied the process? well, ifi am honest, i applied and — the process? well, ifi am honest, i applied and l— the process? well, ifi am honest, i applied and i did — the process? well, ifi am honest, i applied and i did not _ the process? well, ifi am honest, i applied and i did not hear _ the process? well, ifi am honest, i applied and i did not hear anything l applied and i did not hear anything for years. — applied and i did not hear anything for years, literally years, and every— for years, literally years, and every now _ for years, literally years, and every now and again you get a three—month letter saying, we are still looking at it, are still look at in. — still looking at it, are still look at in. and _ still looking at it, are still look at in, and then it became apparent that they— at in, and then it became apparent that they were waiting on the high court _ that they were waiting on the high court litigation before they would make _ court litigation before they would make up — court litigation before they would make up their mind on anything. did the make up their mind on anything. they tell you make up their mind on anything. d c they tell you that or did you work that out yourself? we they tell you that or did you work that out yourself?— they tell you that or did you work that out yourself? we worked that out. we that out yourself? we worked that out- we did _ that out yourself? we worked that out. we did here _ that out yourself? we worked that out. we did here on _ that out yourself? we worked that out. we did here on the _ that out yourself? we worked that out. we did here on the grapevine j out. we did here on the grapevine that they— out. we did here on the grapevine that they would not do anything because — that they would not do anything because the judgment was coming out, they would _ because the judgment was coming out, they would not do anything until it came _ they would not do anything until it came out — they would not do anything until it came out. ~ ., ., ., came out. when it got to the court of appeal. — came out. when it got to the court of appeal. the _ came out. when it got to the court of appeal, the post _ came out. when it got to the court of appeal, the post office - came out. when it got to the court of appeal, the post office in - came out. when it got to the court of appeal, the post office in your i of appeal, the post office in your case conceded that they behaved improperly and the judgment of the court of appeal set out in detail what was wrong with the process and why your conviction was unsafe. mainly because they did it when they knew i_ mainly because they did it when they knew i had _ mainly because they did it when they knew i had not done it. but

mainly because they did it when they knew i had not done it.— knew i had not done it. but you went throu~h knew i had not done it. but you went through that — knew i had not done it. but you went through that process. _ knew i had not done it. but you went through that process. what - knew i had not done it. but you went through that process. what is - knew i had not done it. but you went through that process. what is your . through that process. what is your reaction to a piece of legislation that exonerates everybody, including those people who have not gone through the process that you did? where does that leave you feeling? does that diminish your acquittal by the court of appeal? i does that diminish your acquittal by the court of appeal?— the court of appeal? i don't think it diminishes _ the court of appeal? i don't think it diminishes mine, _ the court of appeal? i don't think it diminishes mine, by _ the court of appeal? i don't think it diminishes mine, by debit - the court of appeal? i don't think. it diminishes mine, by debit better view thinks... that something has -ot view thinks... that something has got to— view thinks... that something has got to happen because there are 900 cases _ got to happen because there are 900 cases. not— got to happen because there are 900 cases. ., , . cases. not perfect, i get the sense--- _ cases. not perfect, i get the sense... not _ cases. not perfect, i get the sense... not perfect, - cases. not perfect, i get the sense... not perfect, but. cases. not perfect, i get the sense... not perfect, but i l cases. not perfect, i get the - sense... not perfect, but i guess it is the only — sense... not perfect, but i guess it is the only way- — sense... not perfect, but i guess it is the only way. good _ sense... not perfect, but i guess it is the only way. good morning - sense... not perfect, but i guess it is the only way. good morning mr i is the only way. good morning mr bates and miss _ is the only way. good morning mr bates and miss hamilton. - is the only way. good morning mr bates and miss hamilton. i - is the only way. good morning mr i bates and miss hamilton. i wonder, the threat of a prison sentence, what sort of impact that had. obviously, it must have been horrific, it really must have been horrific. i wonder if you can

explain to the committee, when you were on the helpline, trying to seek advice from the post office and you actually had your sheet in front of you and they were explaining how to remedy, and then your deficit. it doubled, i believe, in front of your eyes. can you explain to the committee how you felt at that precise moment in time? last committee how you felt at that precise moment in time? at the time, i felt helpless- — precise moment in time? at the time, i felt helpless. when _ precise moment in time? at the time, i felt helpless. when they _ precise moment in time? at the time, i felt helpless. when they told - precise moment in time? at the time, i felt helpless. when they told me - precise moment in time? at the time, i felt helpless. when they told me i i i felt helpless. when they told me i was the _ i felt helpless. when they told me i was the only one having problems, i presumed _ was the only one having problems, i presumed it— was the only one having problems, i presumed it was me, because i did not know— presumed it was me, because i did not know any better. they always said. _ not know any better. they always said, reverse base, reverse it, it willall— said, reverse base, reverse it, it will all sort — said, reverse base, reverse it, it will all sort itself out, but it did not. _ will all sort itself out, but it did not. and. — will all sort itself out, but it did not, and, you know, they kept my wages _ not, and, you know, they kept my wages and — not, and, you know, they kept my wages and then i remortgaged, because — wages and then i remortgaged, because i— wages and then i remortgaged, because i had such a long lease on the shop. — because i had such a long lease on the shop. i— because i had such a long lease on the shop, i knew if they sacked... because _ the shop, i knew if they sacked... because they said they would sack me, because they said they would sack me. then — because they said they would sack me, then the whole thing would collapse — me, then the whole thing would

collapse i— me, then the whole thing would collapse. i felt i had no choice but to run— collapse. i felt i had no choice but to run with — collapse. i felt i had no choice but to run with it and keep putting money— to run with it and keep putting money in _ to run with it and keep putting money in— to run with it and keep putting mone in. , ,, . money in. and absolutely desperate situation. the _ money in. and absolutely desperate situation. the report, _ money in. and absolutely desperate situation. the report, and _ money in. and absolutely desperate situation. the report, and many - money in. and absolutely desperate situation. the report, and many say| situation. the report, and many say you remortgage... situation. the report, and many say you remortgage---— situation. the report, and many say you remortgage. . ._ you | you remortgage... yes, twice. you borrowed money _ you remortgage... yes, twice. you borrowed money off _ you remortgage... yes, twice. you borrowed money off your - you remortgage... yes, twice. you borrowed money off your parents. | borrowed money off your parents. what a horrendous situation to find yourself in. and you eventually repaid the money back to the post office. have you any idea where that money went? i office. have you any idea where that money went?— office. have you any idea where that money went? i heard it goes into the susense money went? i heard it goes into the suspense account _ money went? i heard it goes into the suspense account and _ money went? i heard it goes into the suspense account and then _ money went? i heard it goes into the | suspense account and then eventually -ets suspense account and then eventually gets hoovered into profit and loss, but _ gets hoovered into profit and loss, but... ., ., y., y., but... how would you feel if you thou~ht but... how would you feel if you thought that _ but... how would you feel if you thought that your _ but... how would you feel if you thought that your money - but... how would you feel if you thought that your money was i but... how would you feel if you | thought that your money was put but... how would you feel if you - thought that your money was put into the post office accounts and the profits from that account went to dividend holdings while you were suffering there where you were, and potentially, some top executives in

the post office received some of your money in terms of bonuses? ironic, isn't it? your money in terms of bonuses? lronic. isn't it?— your money in terms of bonuses? ironic, isn't it? how does that make ou feel, ironic, isn't it? how does that make you feel, honestly? _ ironic, isn't it? how does that make you feel, honestly? it _ ironic, isn't it? how does that make you feel, honestly? it is _ ironic, isn't it? how does that make you feel, honestly? it is sickening, l you feel, honestly? it is sickening, reall , to you feel, honestly? it is sickening, really. to be _ you feel, honestly? it is sickening, really, to be honest. _ you feel, honestly? it is sickening, really, to be honest. the _ you feel, honestly? it is sickening, really, to be honest. the fact - you feel, honestly? it is sickening, really, to be honest. the fact we i really, to be honest. the fact we were _ really, to be honest. the fact we were shouting so loud at one point and everything was known and yet our money— and everything was known and yet our money was _ and everything was known and yet our money wasjust being played with. they looked profitable at one point and it _ they looked profitable at one point and it was — they looked profitable at one point and it was our money.— they looked profitable at one point and it was our money. thank you very much for that- — and it was our money. thank you very much for that. mr _ and it was our money. thank you very much for that. mr bates, _ and it was our money. thank you very much for that. mr bates, last - and it was our money. thank you very much for that. mr bates, last week, | much for that. mr bates, last week, the government announced a promised upfront payment of £75,000. i wonder what your initial reaction is to that, what the reaction is from the people you have been in contact with. will many of them people be taking up the £75,000? or do you

believe... or what proportion do you believe, i will accept that, will march towards compensation? i think there probably _ march towards compensation? i think there probably will _ march towards compensation? i think there probably will be _ march towards compensation? i think there probably will be some - march towards compensation? i think there probably will be some that - march towards compensation? i think there probably will be some that it i there probably will be some that it will suit. _ there probably will be some that it will suit. but— there probably will be some that it will suit, but at _ there probably will be some that it will suit, but at the _ there probably will be some that it will suit, but at the moment, i- will suit, but at the moment, i don't _ will suit, but at the moment, i don't think— will suit, but at the moment, i don't think there _ will suit, but at the moment, i don't think there is _ will suit, but at the moment, i don't think there is any - will suit, but at the moment, i don't think there is any detail. will suit, but at the moment, i. don't think there is any detail that has been — don't think there is any detail that has been published _ don't think there is any detail that has been published about- don't think there is any detail that has been published about it. i don't think there is any detail that has been published about it. that| don't think there is any detail that i has been published about it. that is my understanding. _ has been published about it. that is my understanding. and _ has been published about it. that is my understanding. and the - has been published about it. that is my understanding. and the other. my understanding. and the other question— my understanding. and the other question about _ my understanding. and the other question about it _ my understanding. and the other question about it is, _ my understanding. and the other question about it is, the - my understanding. and the other question about it is, the few- my understanding. and the otheri question about it is, the few cases that have — question about it is, the few cases that have gone _ question about it is, the few cases that have gone through— question about it is, the few cases that have gone through in- question about it is, the few cases that have gone through in the i that have gone through in the scheme. _ that have gone through in the scheme, which _ that have gone through in the scheme, which i _ that have gone through in the scheme, which i refer- that have gone through in the scheme, which i refer to i that have gone through in the scheme, which i refer to as. that have gone through in the. scheme, which i refer to as the that have gone through in the i scheme, which i refer to as the low hanging _ scheme, which i refer to as the low hanging fruit. — scheme, which i refer to as the low hanging fruit, the _ scheme, which i refer to as the low hanging fruit, the low— scheme, which i refer to as the low hanging fruit, the low value - scheme, which i refer to as the low hanging fruit, the low value once, i hanging fruit, the low value once, will they— hanging fruit, the low value once, will they be — hanging fruit, the low value once, will they be able _ hanging fruit, the low value once, will they be able to _ hanging fruit, the low value once, will they be able to claim - hanging fruit, the low value once, will they be able to claim a - hanging fruit, the low value once, will they be able to claim a top i hanging fruit, the low value once, will they be able to claim a top up to the _ will they be able to claim a top up to the £75,000 _ will they be able to claim a top up to the £75,000 as _ will they be able to claim a top up to the £75,000 as well? - will they be able to claim a top up to the £75,000 as well? i- will they be able to claim a top up to the £75,000 as well? i think. to the £75,000 as well? i think there _ to the £75,000 as well? i think there are — to the £75,000 as well? i think there are a _ to the £75,000 as well? i think there are a lot— to the £75,000 as well? i think there are a lot of— to the £75,000 as well? i think there are a lot of questions i to the £75,000 as well? i think there are a lot of questions to i to the £75,000 as well? ithink. there are a lot of questions to be answered — there are a lot of questions to be answered at _ there are a lot of questions to be answered at present _ there are a lot of questions to be answered at present and - there are a lot of questions to be answered at present and i- there are a lot of questions to be answered at present and i don't. answered at present and i don't think. _ answered at present and i don't think. until— answered at present and i don't think, untilthey_ answered at present and i don't think, until they publish- answered at present and i don't think, until they publish the i think, until they publish the details. _ think, until they publish the details. it— think, until they publish the details, it is— think, until they publish the details, it is a _ think, until they publish the details, it is a bit— think, until they publish the details, it is a bit hard i think, until they publish the details, it is a bit hard to i details, it is a bit hard to comment. _ details, it is a bit hard to comment-— details, it is a bit hard to comment. 1. . , comment. basically, the huge . uestion comment. basically, the huge question is. — comment. basically, the huge question is, can _ comment. basically, the huge question is, can a _ comment. basically, the huge question is, can a figure i comment. basically, the huge question is, can a figure everl comment. basically, the huge l question is, can a figure ever be calculated which will fully redress

the situation that individual sub—postmasters found themselves in. it has been really interesting already this morning that potentially spouses are victims, children, family members, in no way will be compensated as a result of that. how do we actually calculate the correct type of compensation for each individual involved? you the correct type of compensation for each individual involved?— each individual involved? you will never let each individual involved? you will never get it _ each individual involved? you will never get it exactly _ each individual involved? you will never get it exactly right. - each individual involved? you will never get it exactly right. this i each individual involved? you will never get it exactly right. this is l never get it exactly right. this is something — never get it exactly right. this is something i_ never get it exactly right. this is something i have _ never get it exactly right. this is something i have been - never get it exactly right. this is something i have been after- never get it exactly right. this is something i have been after fori never get it exactly right. this isl something i have been after for a while _ something i have been after for a while where _ something i have been after for a while. where there _ something i have been after for a while. where there has _ something i have been after for a while. where there has been i something i have been after for a while. where there has been hellj something i have been after for a i while. where there has been hell for mental— while. where there has been hell for mental issues — while. where there has been hell for mental issues in _ while. where there has been hell for mental issues in the _ while. where there has been hell for mental issues in the family, - while. where there has been hell for mental issues in the family, they. mental issues in the family, they need to— mental issues in the family, they need to be — mental issues in the family, they need to be assessed _ mental issues in the family, they need to be assessed as - mental issues in the family, they need to be assessed as part i mental issues in the family, they need to be assessed as part of i mental issues in the family, they. need to be assessed as part of this scheme _ need to be assessed as part of this scheme and — need to be assessed as part of this scheme and it— need to be assessed as part of this scheme and it needs _ need to be assessed as part of this scheme and it needs to— need to be assessed as part of this scheme and it needs to be - scheme and it needs to be transparent— scheme and it needs to be transparent and _ scheme and it needs to be transparent and it - scheme and it needs to be transparent and it needs l scheme and it needs to bei transparent and it needs to scheme and it needs to be i transparent and it needs to be consistent— transparent and it needs to be consistent across _ transparent and it needs to be consistent across the - transparent and it needs to be consistent across the whole i transparent and it needs to be i consistent across the whole board as well. _ consistent across the whole board as well. because— consistent across the whole board as well. because at— consistent across the whole board as well, because at present, _ consistent across the whole board as well, because at present, it- consistent across the whole board as well, because at present, it is- consistent across the whole board as well, because at present, it is not. well, because at present, it is not included _ well, because at present, it is not included in — well, because at present, it is not included in a _ well, because at present, it is not included in a sub—postmaster's i included in a sub—postmaster's claim. — included in a sub—postmaster's claim. when _ included in a sub—postmaster's claim. when i _ included in a sub—postmaster's claim. when i have— included in a sub—postmaster's claim. when i have raised i included in a sub—postmaster's claim. when i have raised thisi included in a sub—postmaster's i claim. when i have raised this in the past. — claim. when i have raised this in the past. the _ claim. when i have raised this in

the past, the government- claim. when i have raised this in the past, the government have i claim. when i have raised this in i the past, the government have said, well. _ the past, the government have said, well. we _ the past, the government have said, well. we do — the past, the government have said, well, we do consider— the past, the government have said, well, we do consider it— the past, the government have said, well, we do consider it when- the past, the government have said, well, we do consider it when we i the past, the government have said, well, we do consider it when we are i well, we do consider it when we are working _ well, we do consider it when we are working it _ well, we do consider it when we are working it out. _ well, we do consider it when we are working it out, but _ well, we do consider it when we are working it out, but it— well, we do consider it when we are working it out, but it is— well, we do consider it when we are working it out, but it is not- working it out, but it is not structured, _ working it out, but it is not structured, it _ working it out, but it is not structured, it is _ working it out, but it is not structured, it is not - working it out, but it is not- structured, it is not transparent and it— structured, it is not transparent and it needs _ structured, it is not transparent and it needs to _ structured, it is not transparent and it needs to be _ structured, it is not transparent and it needs to be introduced, i structured, it is not transparent. and it needs to be introduced, and as far— and it needs to be introduced, and as far as— and it needs to be introduced, and as far as the — and it needs to be introduced, and as far as the gl— and it needs to be introduced, and as far as the gl oh— and it needs to be introduced, and as far as the gl oh scheme - and it needs to be introduced, and as far as the gl oh scheme goes, i think— as far as the gl oh scheme goes, i think it _ as far as the gl oh scheme goes, i think it probably— as far as the gl oh scheme goes, i think it probably effects _ as far as the gl oh scheme goes, i think it probably effects may- as far as the gl oh scheme goes, i think it probably effects may or i as far as the gl oh scheme goes, i think it probably effects may or a i think it probably effects may or a sixth— think it probably effects may or a sixth of— think it probably effects may or a sixth of all— think it probably effects may or a sixth of all claimants, _ think it probably effects may or a sixth of all claimants, maybe i think it probably effects may or a i sixth of all claimants, maybe more, but it— sixth of all claimants, maybe more, but it is— sixth of all claimants, maybe more, but it is around _ sixth of all claimants, maybe more, but it is around that _ sixth of all claimants, maybe more, but it is around that sort _ sixth of all claimants, maybe more, but it is around that sort of - but it is around that sort of figure _ but it is around that sort of figure but _ but it is around that sort of figure. but you _ but it is around that sort of figure. but you are - but it is around that sort of figure. but you are right, l but it is around that sort of - figure. but you are right, financial redress— figure. but you are right, financial redress will— figure. but you are right, financial redress will never— figure. but you are right, financial redress will never put _ figure. but you are right, financial redress will never put things i figure. but you are right, financial redress will never put things back| redress will never put things back for people — redress will never put things back for people but _ redress will never put things back for people. but this _ redress will never put things back for people. but this is— redress will never put things back for people. but this is something | for people. but this is something which _ for people. but this is something which i _ for people. but this is something which i get — for people. but this is something which i get annoyed _ for people. but this is something which i get annoyed about, i for people. but this is something which i get annoyed about, whenj which i get annoyed about, when people _ which i get annoyed about, when people call— which i get annoyed about, when people call it _ which i get annoyed about, when people call it compensation. i which i get annoyed about, whenj people call it compensation. this which i get annoyed about, when. people call it compensation. this is money— people call it compensation. this is money that— people call it compensation. this is money that they _ people call it compensation. this is money that they are _ people call it compensation. this is money that they are due. _ people call it compensation. this is money that they are due. this i people call it compensation. this is money that they are due. this is i money that they are due. this is many— money that they are due. this is many to— money that they are due. this is many to put— money that they are due. this is many to put them _ money that they are due. this is many to put them back - money that they are due. this is many to put them back into - money that they are due. this is many to put them back into a i many to put them back into a position— many to put them back into a position that _ many to put them back into a position that they— many to put them back into a position that they would - many to put them back into ai position that they would have many to put them back into a - position that they would have been in had _ position that they would have been in had post— position that they would have been in had post office _ position that they would have been in had post office not _ position that they would have been in had post office not done - position that they would have been in had post office not done what i position that they would have been in had post office not done what iti in had post office not done what it did to _ in had post office not done what it did to them — in had post office not done what it did to them. so— in had post office not done what it did to them. so it _ in had post office not done what it did to them. so it is _ in had post office not done what it did to them. so it is not _ in had post office not done what it did to them. so it is not really- did to them. so it is not really compensation, _ did to them. so it is not really compensation, which - did to them. so it is not really compensation, which is - did to them. so it is not really compensation, which is why. did to them. so it is not really compensation, which is why ii did to them. so it is not really- compensation, which is why i keep calling _ compensation, which is why i keep calling it _ compensation, which is why i keep calling it financial— compensation, which is why i keep calling it financial redress. - compensation, which is why i keep calling it financial redress. [- calling it financial redress. think what you are saying, basically, sorry, just to conclude, a lot of the money in the first

place was yours anyway, and just getting it back, is that fair to say? getting it back, is that fair to sa ? ., , getting it back, is that fair to sa ? . , . ., , getting it back, is that fair to sa? . ,. . ., say? that is certainly a part of it, but also the _ say? that is certainly a part of it, but also the loss _ say? that is certainly a part of it, but also the loss of _ say? that is certainly a part of it, but also the loss of the _ say? that is certainly a part of it, but also the loss of the earnings, the loss— but also the loss of the earnings, the loss of— but also the loss of the earnings, the loss of their— but also the loss of the earnings, the loss of their investment. - but also the loss of the earnings, the loss of their investment. it. but also the loss of the earnings, the loss of their investment. it isj the loss of their investment. it is all this— the loss of their investment. it is all this that — the loss of their investment. it is all this that they— the loss of their investment. it is all this that they would _ the loss of their investment. it is all this that they would have - the loss of their investment. it is all this that they would have had | the loss of their investment. it is l all this that they would have had in the future — all this that they would have had in the future. ., . the future. one of the recurring themes throughout _ the future. one of the recurring themes throughout this - the future. one of the recurring themes throughout this has - the future. one of the recurring i themes throughout this has been the future. one of the recurring - themes throughout this has been all themes throughout this has been all the people that only thought it was happening to them and the gas lighting that you referred to. the justice for sub—postmasters have done some extraordinary work in convening those affected and seeking justice, but i am interested to know your view of the role of the national federation of sub—postmasters. this work surely alarm bells that should have been going on there and an expectation from their members that they would get support that did not materialise. do you think an independent trade union could have

made a difference here? filth. independent trade union could have made a difference here?— independent trade union could have made a difference here? oh, yes. the federation were _ made a difference here? oh, yes. the federation were in _ made a difference here? oh, yes. the federation were in bed _ made a difference here? oh, yes. the federation were in bed with _ made a difference here? oh, yes. the federation were in bed with post - federation were in bed with post office _ federation were in bed with post office from — federation were in bed with post office from day— federation were in bed with post office from day one _ federation were in bed with post office from day one and - federation were in bed with post office from day one and as - federation were in bed with post office from day one and as far i federation were in bed with post office from day one and as far asj federation were in bed with posti office from day one and as far as i know— office from day one and as far as i know they— office from day one and as far as i know they probably— office from day one and as far as i know they probably still— office from day one and as far as i know they probably still are, - know they probably still are, because _ know they probably still are, because they _ know they probably still are, because they are _ know they probably still are, because they are paid - know they probably still are, because they are paid for, l know they probably still are, i because they are paid for, lock, stock— because they are paid for, lock, stock and — because they are paid for, lock, stock and barrel, _ because they are paid for, lock, stock and barrel, by _ because they are paid for, lock, stock and barrel, by post - because they are paid for, lock, j stock and barrel, by post office. because they are paid for, lock, . stock and barrel, by post office. it should _ stock and barrel, by post office. it should be — stock and barrel, by post office. it should be entirely— stock and barrel, by post office. it should be entirely independent, l stock and barrel, by post office. it should be entirely independent, it really— should be entirely independent, it really has — should be entirely independent, it really has to — should be entirely independent, it really has to be. _ should be entirely independent, it really has to be. it _ should be entirely independent, it really has to be. it is _ should be entirely independent, it really has to be. it is at _ should be entirely independent, it really has to be. it is at a - really has to be. it is at a madness _ really has to be. it is at a madness. they— really has to be. it is at a madness. they have - really has to be. it is at a . madness. they have refused really has to be. it is at a - madness. they have refused to support — madness. they have refused to support any— madness. they have refused to support any sub—postmaster i madness. they have refused to support any sub—postmaster in| madness. they have refused to - support any sub—postmaster in any legal— support any sub—postmaster in any legal action— support any sub—postmaster in any legal action against— support any sub—postmaster in any legal action against post _ support any sub—postmaster in any legal action against post office. - support any sub—postmaster in any legal action against post office. ini legal action against post office. in fact, i— legal action against post office. in fact, i believe _ legal action against post office. in fact, i believe it _ legal action against post office. in fact, i believe it is _ legal action against post office. in fact, i believe it is incorporated i fact, i believe it is incorporated into their— fact, i believe it is incorporated into their charter, _ fact, i believe it is incorporated into their charter, that - fact, i believe it is incorporated into their charter, that they - fact, i believe it is incorporated i into their charter, that they were not allowed _ into their charter, that they were not allowed to _ into their charter, that they were not allowed to act _ into their charter, that they were not allowed to act against - into their charter, that they were not allowed to act against post . not allowed to act against post office. — not allowed to act against post office, otherwise _ not allowed to act against post office, otherwise they- not allowed to act against post office, otherwise they would i not allowed to act against post. office, otherwise they would lose their funding _ office, otherwise they would lose their funding. the _ office, otherwise they would lose their funding.— office, otherwise they would lose their funding. the only advice i got from them when _ their funding. the only advice i got from them when i _ their funding. the only advice i got from them when i rang _ their funding. the only advice i got from them when i rang them - their funding. the only advice i got from them when i rang them up i their funding. the only advice i got from them when i rang them up to | from them when i rang them up to arrange _ from them when i rang them up to arrange an— from them when i rang them up to arrange an audit, they said, we will arrange _ arrange an audit, they said, we will arrange the — arrange an audit, they said, we will arrange the audit, you go find yourself— arrange the audit, you go find yourself a _ arrange the audit, you go find yourself a good criminal lawyer. that _ yourself a good criminal lawyer. that was — yourself a good criminal lawyer. that was the only help i got from

then _ that was the only help i got from them. there was no question of, where _ them. there was no question of, where has — them. there was no question of, where has the money gone? could it be this? _ where has the money gone? could it be this? could it be that? they said. _ be this? could it be that? they said. go— be this? could it be that? they said, go find yourself a lawyer. it was inevitable. why didn't they stick— was inevitable. why didn't they stick up — was inevitable. why didn't they stick up for me? they are in bed with— stick up for me? they are in bed with the — stick up for me? they are in bed with the post office, unfortunately. do you _ with the post office, unfortunately. do you believe they share some of the culpability for what happened? yes. they had our membership fees. they must— yes. they had our membership fees. they must have known. but it will conre _ they must have known. but it will conre out — they must have known. but it will conre out of — they must have known. but it will come out of the inquiry. | they must have known. but it will come out of the inquiry.— come out of the inquiry. i 'ust wonder rffi come out of the inquiry. i 'ust wonder if i i come out of the inquiry. i 'ust wonder if i could i come out of the inquiry. i 'ust wonder if i could ask�* come out of the inquiry. i 'ust wonder if i could ask you b come out of the inquiry. ijust wonder if i could ask you both come out of the inquiry. i just - wonder if i could ask you both very briefly, on the 17th of december, there was a westminster debate, and another debate followed, both of which identified that the horizon scheme could be remotely accessed, both identified there were bugs in their system, and according to my

timeline, in 2014, the second report response from the post office maintains remote access is impossible, and in 2017, the post office admits in court the previous assertion that was impossible. how do you respond to that when you are three, four, five, six, seven years, calling out the fact that remote access was possible? i would like to hear how you respond to that when the people you were talking to in parliament, when you were raising it within your groups. i wonder if you would add some comments. here within your groups. i wonder if you would add some comments. here we are at nine years _ would add some comments. here we are at nine years after— would add some comments. here we are at nine years after that _ would add some comments. here we are at nine years after that and _ would add some comments. here we are at nine years after that and it _ would add some comments. here we are at nine years after that and it is - at nine years after that and it is still not — at nine years after that and it is still not sorted out. how long have you got? _ still not sorted out. how long have you got? it — still not sorted out. how long have you got? it is shocking that it has taken _ you got? it is shocking that it has taken this— you got? it is shocking that it has taken this long and cost this much nroney— taken this long and cost this much nroneyiust— taken this long and cost this much moneyjust for something that we have ireen— moneyjust for something that we have been banging on about four years _

have been banging on about four years we — have been banging on about four ears. ~ ., have been banging on about four ears. . . . , have been banging on about four ears. . ., ., ~ ., have been banging on about four ears. . . . ~ ., . years. we have always known that we were riuht. years. we have always known that we were right- it— years. we have always known that we were right. it was _ years. we have always known that we were right. it wasjust _ years. we have always known that we were right. it wasjust the _ years. we have always known that we were right. it wasjust the post - were right. it wasjust the post office — were right. it wasjust the post office decided _ were right. it wasjust the post office decided to _ were right. it wasjust the post office decided to try— were right. it wasjust the post office decided to try and - were right. it was just the postl office decided to try and control the whole — office decided to try and control the whole narrative _ office decided to try and control the whole narrative over- office decided to try and control the whole narrative over the - office decided to try and control . the whole narrative over the years because _ the whole narrative over the years because of— the whole narrative over the years because of their _ the whole narrative over the years because of their power _ the whole narrative over the years because of their power and - the whole narrative over the yearsj because of their power and money the whole narrative over the years - because of their power and money and all the _ because of their power and money and all the rest _ because of their power and money and all the rest of— because of their power and money and all the rest of it. _ because of their power and money and all the rest of it. they— because of their power and money and all the rest of it. they had _ because of their power and money and all the rest of it. they had the - because of their power and money and all the rest of it. they had the ear- all the rest of it. they had the ear of politicians, _ all the rest of it. they had the ear of politicians, they _ all the rest of it. they had the ear of politicians, they used - all the rest of it. they had the ear of politicians, they used to - all the rest of it. they had the ear of politicians, they used to brief. of politicians, they used to brief thenr, _ of politicians, they used to brief thenr, and — of politicians, they used to brief thenr, and it— of politicians, they used to brief them, and it was— of politicians, they used to brief them, and it was very, - of politicians, they used to brief them, and it was very, very- of politicians, they used to brief| them, and it was very, very hard of politicians, they used to brief. them, and it was very, very hard to battle _ them, and it was very, very hard to battle against — them, and it was very, very hard to battle against them. _ them, and it was very, very hard to battle against them. but _ them, and it was very, very hard to battle against them. but we - them, and it was very, very hard to battle against them. but we always knew we _ battle against them. but we always knew we were _ battle against them. but we always knew we were right. _ battle against them. but we always knew we were right. and _ battle against them. but we always knew we were right. and as - battle against them. but we always knew we were right. and as we - battle against them. but we always. knew we were right. and as we know now: _ knew we were right. and as we know now. there _ knew we were right. and as we know now. there have _ knew we were right. and as we know now, there have been— knew we were right. and as we know now, there have been major- knew we were right. and as we know. now, there have been major cover—ups going _ now, there have been major cover—ups going on. _ now, there have been major cover—ups going on. and — now, there have been major cover—ups going on. and the _ now, there have been major cover—ups going on, and the cover—ups _ now, there have been major cover—ups going on, and the cover—ups are - going on, and the cover—ups are alnrost — going on, and the cover—ups are alnrost far— going on, and the cover—ups are almost far worse _ going on, and the cover—ups are almost far worse than _ going on, and the cover—ups are almost far worse than the - going on, and the cover—ups are almost far worse than the initial| almost far worse than the initial crinre _ almost far worse than the initial crinre and — almost far worse than the initial crinre and the _ almost far worse than the initial crime and the prosecutions - almost far worse than the initial crime and the prosecutions of. crime and the prosecutions of individuals— crime and the prosecutions of individuals in— crime and the prosecutions of individuals in all— crime and the prosecutions of individuals in all of— crime and the prosecutions of individuals in all of this. - crime and the prosecutions of individuals in all of this. [- crime and the prosecutions of individuals in all of this.- individuals in all of this. i 'ust want to follow i individuals in all of this. i 'ust want to follow up i individuals in all of this. i 'ust want to follow up on i individuals in all of this. i just l want to follow up on anthony's point, do you think the post office was naive and theyjust believed fujitsu? 0r was naive and theyjust believed fujitsu? or do you think they were deliberately concealing something? 0r deliberately concealing something? or was there something else? ithink

or was there something else? i think ost office or was there something else? i think post office did _ or was there something else? i think post office did not _ or was there something else? i think post office did not have _ or was there something else? i think post office did not have the - post office did not have the technical _ post office did not have the technical expertise - post office did not have the technical expertise at - post office did not have the technical expertise at the l post office did not have the - technical expertise at the outset, when _ technical expertise at the outset, when they— technical expertise at the outset, when they brought _ technical expertise at the outset, when they brought their- technical expertise at the outset, when they brought their system i technical expertise at the outset, i when they brought their system in, and they— when they brought their system in, and they very — when they brought their system in, and they very much _ when they brought their system in, and they very much relied - when they brought their system in, and they very much relied upon - when they brought their system in, i and they very much relied upon their supplier— and they very much relied upon their supplier to— and they very much relied upon their supplier to also _ and they very much relied upon their supplier to also beat _ and they very much relied upon their supplier to also beat their _ and they very much relied upon their supplier to also beat their it - supplier to also beat their it experts _ supplier to also beat their it experts and _ supplier to also beat their it experts and advisors - supplier to also beat their it experts and advisors along i supplier to also beat their it . experts and advisors along the supplier to also beat their it - experts and advisors along the way. i experts and advisors along the way. ithink— experts and advisors along the way. i think that — experts and advisors along the way. i think that was _ experts and advisors along the way. i think that was a _ experts and advisors along the way. i think that was a major, _ experts and advisors along the way. i think that was a major, major - i think that was a major, major decision, — i think that was a major, major decision, a _ i think that was a major, major decision, a major— i think that was a major, major decision, a major problem. - decision, a major problem. realistically, _ decision, a major problem. realistically, even - decision, a major problem. realistically, even if- decision, a major problem. realistically, even if they. decision, a major problem. i realistically, even if they did decision, a major problem. - realistically, even if they did not have _ realistically, even if they did not have the — realistically, even if they did not have the in—house _ realistically, even if they did not have the in—house expertise, - realistically, even if they did not. have the in—house expertise, they should _ have the in—house expertise, they should have — have the in—house expertise, they should have brought— have the in—house expertise, they should have brought in— have the in—house expertise, they should have brought in a - have the in—house expertise, they should have brought in a third - have the in—house expertise, they. should have brought in a third party to assist— should have brought in a third party to assist thenr — should have brought in a third party to assist them along _ should have brought in a third party to assist them along the _ should have brought in a third party to assist them along the way. - should have brought in a third party to assist them along the way. find i should have brought in a third party| to assist them along the way. find it to assist them along the way. and it was that your _ to assist them along the way. and it was that your experience, _ to assist them along the way. and it was that your experience, whenever you would call the help desk, was it your experience that the help desk did not have the capability and the knowledge to assist? i did not have the capability and the knowledge to assist?— knowledge to assist? i didn't even knowledge to assist? i didn't even know there _ knowledge to assist? i didn't even know there was _ knowledge to assist? i didn't even know there was a _ knowledge to assist? i didn't even know there was a horizon - knowledge to assist? i didn't even know there was a horizon help - knowledge to assist? i didn't even i know there was a horizon help desk. they didn't _ know there was a horizon help desk. they didn't even tell me. you do this, _ they didn't even tell me. you do this, this — they didn't even tell me. you do this, this and this, which made the whole _ this, this and this, which made the whole thing — this, this and this, which made the whole thing worse, but no one ever told nre _ whole thing worse, but no one ever told me about the horizon help desk.

i told me about the horizon help desk. i neverm _ told me about the horizon help desk. i neverm i— told me about the horizon help desk. i never... i started pre—electronic and i— i never... i started pre—electronic and i never— i never... i started pre—electronic and i never had a problem until it went— and i never had a problem until it went electronic, and i had only ever dealt _ went electronic, and i had only ever dealt with— went electronic, and i had only ever dealt with the national help desk, and they— dealt with the national help desk, and they did not tell me about the horizon _ and they did not tell me about the horizon help desk. just and they did not tell me about the horizon help desk.— horizon help desk. just to follow on, are horizon help desk. just to follow on. are you _ horizon help desk. just to follow on, are you aware, _ horizon help desk. just to follow on, are you aware, to _ horizon help desk. just to follow on, are you aware, to date, - horizon help desk. just to follow on, are you aware, to date, with horizon help desk. just to follow - on, are you aware, to date, with the horizon system still in use, of any continuing faults? has anyone approached either of you to ask if the system in use has any false? i the system in use has any false? i have no proof of it. i have - the system in use has any false? i have no proof of it. i have spoken| have no proof of it. i have spoken to serb postmasters _ have no proof of it. i have spoken to serb postmasters in _ have no proof of it. i have spoken to serb postmasters in the - have no proof of it. i have spoken to serb postmasters in the past i have no proof of it. i have spoken i to serb postmasters in the past who will give _ to serb postmasters in the past who will give nre — to serb postmasters in the past who will give me examples— to serb postmasters in the past who will give me examples of— to serb postmasters in the past who will give me examples of failings - will give me examples of failings within— will give me examples of failings within the — will give me examples of failings within the system, _ will give me examples of failings within the system, steel, - will give me examples of failings within the system, steel, so, - will give me examples of failingsi within the system, steel, so, yes, it is still— within the system, steel, so, yes, it is still ongoing. _ within the system, steel, so, yes, it is still ongoing. —— _ it is still ongoing. —— sub—postmasters. i

it is still ongoing. -- sub-postmasters. it is still ongoing. -- sub-ostmasters. , l, l, sub-postmasters. first of all, may i a olouise. sub-postmasters. first of all, may i apologise- i — sub-postmasters. first of all, may i apologise- i may — sub-postmasters. first of all, may i apologise. i may be _ sub-postmasters. first of all, may i apologise. i may be one _ sub-postmasters. first of all, may i apologise. i may be one of - sub-postmasters. first of all, may i apologise. i may be one of the - sub-postmasters. first of all, may i apologise. i may be one of the only| apologise. i may be one of the only people in the country not yet to watch the itv drama, not through any deliberate choice, but having to young children.— deliberate choice, but having to young children. thank you for that insiaht! young children. thank you for that insight! my _ young children. thank you for that insight! my father _ young children. thank you for that insight! my father is _ young children. thank you for that insight! my father is a _ young children. thank you for that insight! my father is a good - young children. thank you for that insight! my father is a good judge | insight! my father is a good 'udge of character. i insight! my father is a good 'udge of character, someone h insight! my father is a good 'udge of character, someone who h insight! my father is a good judge of character, someone who is - insight! my father is a good judge of character, someone who is a l insight! my father is a good judge i of character, someone who is a very godly man, and only once in my life has he ever sent me a raging text message, and it was following this itv drama and seeing the injustice that you and many others have had to suffer, and that is why i wonder, as far as you are concerned, do you think that despite what was said on the floor of the house, and about emergency legislation, about the processing scheme, obviously the drama bringing to the public�*s attention what you have both had to go through, as well as the other victims, do you thinkjustice will ever be achieved?

victims, do you think 'ustice will ever be achieved?— ever be achieved? well, it will never let _ ever be achieved? well, it will never let my _ ever be achieved? well, it will never let my mother— ever be achieved? well, it will never let my mother and - ever be achieved? well, it will| never let my mother and father ever be achieved? well, it will - never let my mother and father see me have _ never let my mother and father see me have my— never let my mother and father see me have my conviction quashed, but apart— me have my conviction quashed, but apart from _ me have my conviction quashed, but apart from that, we need to see deeds_ apart from that, we need to see deeds not— apart from that, we need to see deeds not words. you can say things, but i think_ deeds not words. you can say things, but i think for— deeds not words. you can say things, but i think for everybody now to draw _ but i think for everybody now to draw a — but i think for everybody now to draw a line _ but i think for everybody now to draw a line under this, the very minimum— draw a line under this, the very minimum is— draw a line under this, the very minimum is the group who are still left looking for many, it needs to be fast _ left looking for many, it needs to be fast tracked. there has to be a way of— be fast tracked. there has to be a way of applying a bit of common sense _ way of applying a bit of common sense to — way of applying a bit of common sense to this and cutting out all the red — sense to this and cutting out all the red tape. mr sense to this and cutting out all the red tape-— sense to this and cutting out all the red tape._ that . sense to this and cutting out all the red tape._ that is the red tape. mr bates? that is riuht. the red tape. mr bates? that is right- the _ the red tape. mr bates? that is right. the group, _ the red tape. mr bates? that is right. the group, we _ the red tape. mr bates? that is right. the group, we have - the red tape. mr bates? that is right. the group, we have beeni the red tape. mr bates? that is i right. the group, we have been at this, _ right. the group, we have been at this, many— right. the group, we have been at this, many of— right. the group, we have been at this, many of them, _ right. the group, we have been at this, many of them, for— right. the group, we have been at this, many of them, for 20 - right. the group, we have been at this, many of them, for 20 yearsl right. the group, we have been at. this, many of them, for 20 years or so, and _ this, many of them, for 20 years or so, and they— this, many of them, for 20 years or so, and they have _ this, many of them, for 20 years or so, and they have got _ this, many of them, for 20 years or so, and they have got to _ this, many of them, for 20 years or so, and they have got to put - this, many of them, for 20 years or so, and they have got to put this i so, and they have got to put this right _ so, and they have got to put this right i_ so, and they have got to put this right iwas — so, and they have got to put this right. i was talking _ so, and they have got to put this right. i was talking to _ so, and they have got to put this right. i was talking to one - so, and they have got to put this right. i was talking to one of- so, and they have got to put this right. i was talking to one of the| right. i was talking to one of the group _ right. i was talking to one of the group at — right. i was talking to one of the group at the _ right. i was talking to one of the group at the weekend. - right. i was talking to one of the group at the weekend. she - right. i was talking to one of the group at the weekend. she is i right. i was talking to one of the group at the weekend. she is 91| group at the weekend. she is 91 years— group at the weekend. she is 91 years oid~ — group at the weekend. she is 91 years oid~ how— group at the weekend. she is 91 years old. how many _ group at the weekend. she is 91 years old. how many more - group at the weekend. she is 91| years old. how many more years group at the weekend. she is 91 - years old. how many more years does she have _ years old. how many more years does she have to— years old. how many more years does she have to weit— years old. how many more years does she have to wait for— years old. how many more years does she have to wait for financial - she have to wait for financial redress? _ she have to wait for financial redress? has _ she have to wait for financial redress? has she _ she have to wait for financial redress? has she got- she have to wait for financial redress? has she got to - she have to wait for financiali redress? has she got to wait she have to wait for financial - redress? has she got to wait until

she gets — redress? has she got to wait until she gets a — redress? has she got to wait until she gets a telegram _ redress? has she got to wait until she gets a telegram from - redress? has she got to wait until she gets a telegram from the - redress? has she got to wait until. she gets a telegram from the king? it is ridiculous— she gets a telegram from the king? it is ridiculous how— she gets a telegram from the king? it is ridiculous how long _ she gets a telegram from the king? it is ridiculous how long their- it is ridiculous how long their system — it is ridiculous how long their system is _ it is ridiculous how long their system is holding _ it is ridiculous how long their system is holding this- it is ridiculous how long their system is holding this app. l it is ridiculous how long their- system is holding this app. absolute madness _ system is holding this app. absolute madness and — system is holding this app. absolute madness. and it _ system is holding this app. absolute madness. and it is _ system is holding this app. absolute madness. and it is a _ system is holding this app. absolute madness. and it is a very— system is holding this app. absolute madness. and it is a very unfair- system is holding this app. absolute madness. and it is a very unfair and| madness. and it is a very unfair and it is cruet _ madness. and it is a very unfair and it is cruet leit— madness. and it is a very unfair and it is cruel. . madness. and it is a very unfair and it is cruel. , . ., . it is cruel. let me 'ust conclude with a couple _ it is cruel. let me 'ust conclude with a couple of_ it is cruel. let me just conclude with a couple of questions - it is cruel. let me just conclude with a couple of questions that| it is cruel. let me just conclude i with a couple of questions that we just need to check. do you think that there are many victims still out there who have not yet come forward, mr bates?— out there who have not yet come forward, mr bates? there are people contactin: forward, mr bates? there are people contacting me _ forward, mr bates? there are people contacting me now— forward, mr bates? there are people contacting me now who _ forward, mr bates? there are people contacting me now who have - forward, mr bates? there are people contacting me now who have had - contacting me now who have had tosses— contacting me now who have had tosses over— contacting me now who have had losses over the _ contacting me now who have had losses over the years _ contacting me now who have had losses over the years and - contacting me now who have had losses over the years and have i losses over the years and have disappeared _ losses over the years and have disappeared and _ losses over the years and have disappeared and i— losses over the years and have disappeared and i am - losses over the years and have disappeared and i am sendingl losses over the years and have - disappeared and i am sending them on to lawyers— disappeared and i am sending them on to lawyers these — disappeared and i am sending them on to lawyers these days, _ disappeared and i am sending them on to lawyers these days, so, _ disappeared and i am sending them on to lawyers these days, so, yes, - disappeared and i am sending them on to lawyers these days, so, yes, they. to lawyers these days, so, yes, they are starting — to lawyers these days, so, yes, they are starting to — to lawyers these days, so, yes, they are starting to come _ to lawyers these days, so, yes, they are starting to come through- to lawyers these days, so, yes, they are starting to come through again. i are starting to come through again. i are starting to come through again. i had _ are starting to come through again. i had a _ are starting to come through again. i had a text— are starting to come through again. i had a text in— are starting to come through again. i had a text in the _ are starting to come through again. i had a text in the taxi _ are starting to come through again. i had a text in the taxi on _ are starting to come through again. i had a text in the taxi on the - are starting to come through again. i had a text in the taxi on the way. i had a text in the taxi on the way over_ i had a text in the taxi on the way over this — i had a text in the taxi on the way over this morning, from someone who had been _ over this morning, from someone who had been to— over this morning, from someone who had been to prison, and so i am going _ had been to prison, and so i am going to — had been to prison, and so i am going to pass heron. i said, give me a _ going to pass heron. i said, give me a chance, i will get back to you. so i me a chance, i will get back to you. so i think— me a chance, i will get back to you. so i think there are people out

there — so i think there are people out there. �* ., so i think there are people out there. �* . . ., so i think there are people out there. �* . . . there. and we have heard that some eo - le there. and we have heard that some peeple who — there. and we have heard that some people who had _ there. and we have heard that some people who had taken _ there. and we have heard that some people who had taken financial- people who had taken financial redress did not get legal advice when they put their claims in and may therefore have been short—changed. iis may therefore have been short-changed.— may therefore have been short-changed. may therefore have been short-chanced. , . short-changed. is that your view? for sure it — short-changed. is that your view? for sure it would _ short-changed. is that your view? for sure it would be, _ short-changed. is that your view? for sure it would be, yes. - short-changed. is that your view? for sure it would be, yes. mr - short-changed. is that your view? i for sure it would be, yes. mr bates, is that your — for sure it would be, yes. mr bates, is that your perception? _ for sure it would be, yes. mr bates, is that your perception? yes, - for sure it would be, yes. mr bates, is that your perception? yes, i - is that your perception? yes, i think so- _ is that your perception? yes, i think so. finally, _ is that your perception? yes, i think so. finally, what - is that your perception? yes, i think so. finally, what are - is that your perception? yes, i think so. finally, what are the | is that your perception? yes, i - think so. finally, what are the key test for the _ think so. finally, what are the key test for the legislation? _ think so. finally, what are the key test for the legislation? what - think so. finally, what are the key test for the legislation? what do | test for the legislation? what do you think this legislation that the government has now promised must achieve? i government has now promised must achieve? ., government has now promised must achieve? . , . government has now promised must achieve? . . ., achieve? i am sorry, which part of the legislation? _ achieve? i am sorry, which part of the legislation? there _ achieve? i am sorry, which part of the legislation? there is - achieve? i am sorry, which part of the legislation? there is a - achieve? i am sorry, which part of the legislation? there is a new. the legislation? there is a new legislation _ the legislation? there is a new legislation that _ the legislation? there is a new legislation that i _ the legislation? there is a new legislation that i think - the legislation? there is a new legislation that i think it's - the legislation? there is a new| legislation that i think it's going to propose mass overturning of the convictions to speed up the path to redress. what is the key test when that bill hits parliament, we hope in weeks? let's hope it is weeks. how will you judge whether it is good enough? i how will you judge whether it is good enough?— how will you judge whether it is good enough? how will you judge whether it is

acoodenouh? , . , good enough? i suppose really if it draws many _ good enough? i suppose really if it draws many more _ good enough? i suppose really if it draws many more people - good enough? i suppose really if it draws many more people out - good enough? i suppose really if it draws many more people out of i good enough? i suppose really if it| draws many more people out of the woodwork, — draws many more people out of the woodwork, to— draws many more people out of the woodwork, to come _ draws many more people out of the woodwork, to come forward. - draws many more people out of the woodwork, to come forward. it - draws many more people out of the woodwork, to come forward. it would be ironic is if — woodwork, to come forward. it would be ironic is if those _ woodwork, to come forward. it would be ironic is if those people _ woodwork, to come forward. it would be ironic is if those people who - be ironic is if those people who 'ust be ironic is if those people who just come — be ironic is if those people who just come forward would get their money— just come forward would get their money before the group that fought for this _ money before the group that fought for this. ~ ., ~ money before the group that fought for this. ~ . ~ , ., , money before the group that fought for this. ~ . ~ i. , . for this. well, thank you very much indeed for your _ for this. well, thank you very much indeed for your evidence _ for this. well, thank you very much indeed for your evidence today - for this. well, thank you very much | indeed for your evidence today after everything that you have been through. we are truly grateful for the evidence you have given. you have told us that the process of redress is like being tried all over again. redress is like being tried all over aaain. ., ~' redress is like being tried all over aaain. ., ~ i. redress is like being tried all over aaain. ., ~ . again. you feel like you are the cuil again. you feel like you are the guilty one- _ again. you feel like you are the guilty one- i — again. you feel like you are the guilty one. i have _ again. you feel like you are the guilty one. i have not _ again. you feel like you are the guilty one. i have not claimed i guilty one. i have not claimed anything _ guilty one. i have not claimed anything i_ guilty one. i have not claimed anything i am not entitled to, i am not lying _ anything i am not entitled to, i am not lying about anything. but you have _ not lying about anything. but you have got — not lying about anything. but you have got to back it all up with everything. they have got my tax returns. — everything. they have got my tax returns, they can see. what is so difficult? — returns, they can see. what is so difficult? ., . ., ., ., difficult? you have then gone on to tell us that — difficult? you have then gone on to tell us that you _ difficult? you have then gone on to tell us that you don't _ difficult? you have then gone on to tell us that you don't think - difficult? you have then gone on to tell us that you don't think the - tell us that you don't think the bureaucracy is working hard enough to speed up justice and to speed upjustice and redress. you have said something has got to happen, you welcomed the idea of

legislation, but you have also warned us that there are no details that have been published, no details about this £75,000 idea, and, crucially, no transparency about it either. no, no. those are big questions that we need to put to the minister when we see him a little bit later on. but for now, that brings this session to a conclusion. thank you so much for your evidence. order, order. so a pause if they mps listen to the testimonies of those involved in the post office candle. we have just been hearing from two former sub—postmaster. one wasjoe hamilton, from hampshire, giving a very spirited account of how people are still coming forward and the frustration of trying to persuade the post office that she was not at fault when they were shortfalls in her accounts. the committee also spoke to alan bates, the former sub—postmaster who led the campaign

forjustice for sub—postmaster who led the campaign for justice for the hundreds sub—postmaster who led the campaign forjustice for the hundreds of wrongly convicted postmasters and mistresses, and he was asked if he thinks of the inquiry will stop future miscarriages ofjustice. i hope it sends a warning shot across the how— hope it sends a warning shot across the how is— hope it sends a warning shot across the how is of— hope it sends a warning shot across the bow is of these _ hope it sends a warning shot across the bow is of these big _ hope it sends a warning shot acrossi the bow is of these big corporations that what— the bow is of these big corporations that what they _ the bow is of these big corporations that what they actually _ the bow is of these big corporations that what they actually do - the bow is of these big corporations that what they actually do and - that what they actually do and decide — that what they actually do and decide and _ that what they actually do and decide and the _ that what they actually do and decide and the way— that what they actually do and decide and the way they - that what they actually do and decide and the way they work| that what they actually do and - decide and the way they work really affects _ decide and the way they work really affects people — decide and the way they work really affects people write _ decide and the way they work really affects people write down _ decide and the way they work really affects people write down the - decide and the way they work really affects people write down the front| affects people write down the front line of— affects people write down the front line of their— affects people write down the front line of their organisations. - affects people write down the front line of their organisations. and - affects people write down the front line of their organisations. and i. line of their organisations. and i think— line of their organisations. and i think it — line of their organisations. and i think it is — line of their organisations. and i think it is one _ line of their organisations. and i think it is one of— line of their organisations. and i think it is one of the _ line of their organisations. and i think it is one of the failings- think it is one of the failings there — think it is one of the failings there has— think it is one of the failings there has been— think it is one of the failings there has been with - think it is one of the failings there has been with a - think it is one of the failings there has been with a lot. think it is one of the failings there has been with a lot of| think it is one of the failings- there has been with a lot of other things— there has been with a lot of other things like — there has been with a lot of other things like the _ there has been with a lot of other things like the banking _ there has been with a lot of other things like the banking scandals i there has been with a lot of other. things like the banking scandals and blood _ things like the banking scandals and blood scandals, _ things like the banking scandals and blood scandals, people _ things like the banking scandals and blood scandals, people in— things like the banking scandals and blood scandals, people injobs- things like the banking scandals and blood scandals, people injobs of, ii blood scandals, people injobs of, i don't _ blood scandals, people injobs of, i don't know. — blood scandals, people injobs of, i don't know. high— blood scandals, people injobs of, i don't know, high responsibility, - don't know, high responsibility, they— don't know, high responsibility, they are — don't know, high responsibility, they are not _ don't know, high responsibility, they are not being _ don't know, high responsibility, they are not being held - don't know, high responsibility, they are not being held to- don't know, high responsibility, i they are not being held to account at the _ they are not being held to account at the end — they are not being held to account at the end of— they are not being held to account at the end of the _ they are not being held to account at the end of the day. _ they are not being held to account at the end of the day. i— they are not being held to account at the end of the day. i am - they are not being held to accountl at the end of the day. i am hoping, in this— at the end of the day. i am hoping, in this particular— at the end of the day. i am hoping, in this particular instance, - at the end of the day. i am hoping, in this particular instance, that - in this particular instance, that people — in this particular instance, that people are _ in this particular instance, that people are held _ in this particular instance, that people are held to _ in this particular instance, that people are held to account. . in this particular instance, that i people are held to account. that in this particular instance, that people are held to account. that was alan bates- — people are held to account. that was alan bates. let's _ people are held to account. that was

alan bates. let's hear _ people are held to account. that was alan bates. let's hear from - people are held to account. that was alan bates. let's hear from 10 - alan bates. let's hearfrom jo hamilton, giving evidence in a few moments ago, and featured very prominently in the itv drama. let's go back to that hearing right now because it is just kicking off once again. iam at again. i am at the group chief executive of the post office. i i am at the group chief executive of the post office.— the post office. i am the director of fu'itsu the post office. i am the director of fujitsu services _ the post office. i am the director of fujitsu services limited - the post office. i am the director of fujitsu services limited in - the post office. i am the director of fujitsu services limited in the | of fujitsu services limited in the uk. of fu'itsu services limited in the uk. ~ ., of fu'itsu services limited in the uk. . ., y ., of fu'itsu services limited in the uk. . ., of fu'itsu services limited in the uk. would you say that fu'itsu is an ethical company? h uk. would you say that fu'itsu is an ethical company? firstly, _ uk. would you say that fujitsu is an ethical company? firstly, if- uk. would you say that fujitsu is an ethical company? firstly, if i - uk. would you say that fujitsu is an ethical company? firstly, ifi may. ethical company? firstly, ifi may 'ust ethical company? firstly, ifi may just comment _ ethical company? firstly, ifi may just comment on _ ethical company? firstly, ifi may just comment on what _ ethical company? firstly, ifi may just comment on what i - ethical company? firstly, ifi may just comment on what i have - ethical company? firstly, ifi may| just comment on what i have been listening _ just comment on what i have been listening to this morning, the sub—postmasters and their families. fujitsu _ sub—postmasters and their families. fujitsu would like to apologise for our part _ fujitsu would like to apologise for our part in — fujitsu would like to apologise for our part in this appalling miscarriage ofjustice. we were involved — miscarriage ofjustice. we were involved from the very start, we did

have bugs— involved from the very start, we did have bugs and errors in the system and we _ have bugs and errors in the system and we did — have bugs and errors in the system and we did help the post office in their prosecutions of the sub—postmasters. for that we are truly— sub—postmasters. for that we are truly sorry — sub—postmasters. for that we are truly sorry. to your question around our ethics. — truly sorry. to your question around our ethics. i— truly sorry. to your question around our ethics, i believe we are an ethical— our ethics, i believe we are an ethical company. the company today is quite _ ethical company. the company today is quite different to the company in the early— is quite different to the company in the early 2000. we need to demonstrate that both to our customers, to government and to the wider— customers, to government and to the wider society in the uk. | customers, to government and to the wider society in the uk.— wider society in the uk. i have got in front of me _ wider society in the uk. i have got in front of me the _ wider society in the uk. i have got in front of me the fujitsu - wider society in the uk. i have got in front of me the fujitsu dove - wider society in the uk. i have goti in front of me the fujitsu dove con —— contact. it says we treat our customers fairly and with respect. did you live up to those values when it came to the sub—postmasters? ida. it came to the sub-postmasters? no, we did not- — it came to the sub-postmasters? no, we did not- it — it came to the sub-postmasters? no, we did not. it is _ it came to the sub—postmasters? no, we did not. it is very clear from the evidence before the committee and also _ the evidence before the committee and also in — the evidence before the committee and also in the inquiry that our standards— and also in the inquiry that our standards were not at the level that we adhere _ standards were not at the level that we adhere to and state, as you rightly— we adhere to and state, as you

rightly read. i am personally appalled by the evidence that i have seen and _ appalled by the evidence that i have seen and what i saw on the television drama and the statements i television drama and the statements i have _ television drama and the statements i have seen— television drama and the statements i have seen from the victims to the inquiry. _ i have seen from the victims to the inquiry. so — i have seen from the victims to the inquiry, so we did not stand up to that in— inquiry, so we did not stand up to that in that — inquiry, so we did not stand up to that in that period of time. and do ou that in that period of time. and do you accept — that in that period of time. and do you accept that — that in that period of time. and do you accept that fujitsu _ that in that period of time. and do you accept that fujitsu evidence i that in that period of time. and do l you accept that fujitsu evidence was used to put innocent people in prison? used to put innocent people in rison? . used to put innocent people in rison? , . , . used to put innocent people in rison? , ., . ., prison? yes, there was evidence from us. we prison? yes, there was evidence from us- we were — prison? yes, there was evidence from us. we were supporting _ prison? yes, there was evidence from us. we were supporting the _ prison? yes, there was evidence from us. we were supporting the post - us. we were supporting the post office _ us. we were supporting the post office in— us. we were supporting the post office in their prosecutions. there was data — office in their prosecutions. there was data given from as to them to support— was data given from as to them to support those prosecutions, so yes. do you _ support those prosecutions, so yes. do you accept that before 2010, your staff knew they were problems with the horizon system? the information that we shared _ the horizon system? the information that we shared with _ the horizon system? the information that we shared with the _ the horizon system? the information that we shared with the post - the horizon system? the information that we shared with the post office i that we shared with the post office as part _ that we shared with the post office as part of— that we shared with the post office as part of our contract with them was very— as part of our contract with them was very clear, so the post office also knew — was very clear, so the post office also knew there were bugs and errors~~ — also knew there were bugs and errors... , , .,

also knew there were bugs and errors... i , ., ., also knew there were bugs and errors... , , ., ., ., also knew there were bugs and errors... i , ., ., ., , errors... just to zero in on this, did staff — errors... just to zero in on this, did staff in _ errors. .. just to zero in on this, did staff in your— errors... just to zero in on this, did staff in your organisation, i did staff in your organisation, before 2010, no there were problems with the horizon system? yes or no? i don't personally know. i think the idon't personally know. i think the inquiry— i don't personally know. i think the inquiry is _ i don't personally know. i think the inquiry is looking at that very point~ — inquiry is looking at that very oint. ~ ., . inquiry is looking at that very oint. ~ ., , inquiry is looking at that very oint, . ., , inquiry is looking at that very oint. ~ ., . m inquiry is looking at that very oint. ~ ., m cut point. what is your gut feel? my gut feel would be _ point. what is your gut feel? my gut feel would be yes. _ point. what is your gut feel? my gut feel would be yes. so _ point. what is your gut feel? my gut feel would be yes. so you _ point. what is your gut feel? my gut feel would be yes. so you said - point. what is your gut feel? my gut feel would be yes. so you said you l feel would be yes. so you said you are an ethical— feel would be yes. so you said you are an ethical company, _ feel would be yes. so you said you are an ethical company, you - feel would be yes. so you said you are an ethical company, you said l are an ethical company, you said that your evidence was used to put innocent people in prison, you have said that staff in your organisation knew that there were problems with the system. can you tell it how much you now think your company should contribute to the compensation bill? the inquiry is dealing with some very complex matters... but the inquiry is dealing with some very complex matters. . .- the inquiry is dealing with some very complex matters... but is there a moral obligation _ very complex matters... but is there a moral obligation for _ very complex matters... but is there a moral obligation for you _ very complex matters... but is there a moral obligation for you to - a moral obligation for you to contribute? i a moral obligation for you to contribute?— a moral obligation for you to contribute? ~' , . ., . contribute? i think there is a moral oblication contribute? i think there is a moral obligation for _ contribute? i think there is a moral obligation for the _ contribute? i think there is a moral obligation for the company - contribute? i think there is a moral obligation for the company to - obligation for the company to contribute and i think the right place — contribute and i think the right place to— contribute and i think the right

place to determine that is when our responsibility is very clear. there are many— responsibility is very clear. there are many parties involved in this travestym — are many parties involved in this travestym |_ are many parties involved in this travesty- - -_ travesty... i 'ust read your last set of travesty... ijust read your last set of accounts _ travesty... ijust read your last set of accounts which - travesty... ijust read your last set of accounts which have - travesty... ijust read your last. set of accounts which have been published, you have not made any provision for the contribution to the compensation, but you are telling the committee today that there is at least a moral obligation for fujitsu to contribute?— there is at least a moral obligation for fujitsu to contribute? when the in . ui for fujitsu to contribute? when the inquiry finishes... _ for fujitsu to contribute? when the inquiry finishes... that _ for fujitsu to contribute? when the inquiry finishes... that is _ for fujitsu to contribute? when the inquiry finishes... that is a - for fujitsu to contribute? when the inquiry finishes... that is a simple | inquiry finishes... that is a simple es or inquiry finishes... that is a simple yes or no- — inquiry finishes... that is a simple yes or no- is _ inquiry finishes... that is a simple yes or no. is there _ inquiry finishes... that is a simple yes or no. is there a _ inquiry finishes... that is a simple yes or no. is there a moral - yes or no. is there a moral obligation... i yes or no. is there a moral obligation. . ._ yes or no. is there a moral obligation... i have already answered... _ obligation... i have already answered... you _ obligation... i have already answered... you can - obligation... i have already answered... you can keep| obligation... i have already - answered... you can keep going. obligation... i have already _ answered... you can keep going. yes, i believe there _ answered... you can keep going. yes, i believe there is _ answered... you can keep going. yes, i believe there is a _ answered... you can keep going. yes, i believe there is a moral _ i believe there is a moral obligation and i have already said that _ obligation and i have already said that i_ obligation and i have already said that. i think it is also important that. i think it is also important that the — that. i think it is also important that the inquiry deals with these very complex matters with all the parties _ very complex matters with all the parties involved. yes, we have a part— parties involved. yes, we have a part to _ parties involved. yes, we have a part to play _ parties involved. yes, we have a part to play. already this morning we have _ part to play. already this morning we have talked about lawyers. i think— we have talked about lawyers. i think all— we have talked about lawyers. i think all of those matters need to

be discussed to bring transparency and to— be discussed to bring transparency and to bring the truth and in that context. — and to bring the truth and in that context, absolutely, we have a part to play— context, absolutely, we have a part to play and — context, absolutely, we have a part to play and to contribute to the redress. — to play and to contribute to the redress. i— to play and to contribute to the redress, i think is the word that mr bates— redress, i think is the word that mr bates used. — redress, i think is the word that mr bates used, the redress fund. in you acce -t that bates used, the redress fund. in you accept that the _ bates used, the redress fund. in you accept that the company _ bates used, the redress fund. in you accept that the company might - bates used, the redress fund. in youi accept that the company might cover that unit as shown on the itv documentary actually existed, whereby members of your team where able to access sub—postmasters' computer systems in their own offices, and were able to change data without sub—postmasters that had been done? i data without sub-postmasters that had been done?— data without sub-postmasters that had been done? i don't recognise the term covert- — had been done? i don't recognise the term covert. was _ had been done? i don't recognise the term covert. was that _ had been done? i don't recognise the

term covert. was that happening? i had been done? i don't recognise the| term covert. was that happening? we