when you came into post in 2019, where you presented with the board minutes all the way back to when this issue first started? i was. so you have not gone through the board minutes? , a, a, , minutes? many of them, i have, but not all of them. _ minutes? many of them, i have, but not all of them. clearly, _ minutes? many of them, i have, but not all of them. clearly, we - minutes? many of them, i have, but not all of them. clearly, we spent i minutes? many of them, i have, but not all of them. clearly, we spent a| not all of them. clearly, we spent a lot of— not all of them. clearly, we spent a lot of time — not all of them. clearly, we spent a lot oftime in— not all of them. clearly, we spent a lot of time in 2020 as a board working — lot of time in 2020 as a board working through the issues associated with some of the human impact _ associated with some of the human impact and — associated with some of the human impact and some of the individuals that were — impact and some of the individuals that were involved.— that were involved. could you then rovide a that were involved. could you then provide a date. — that were involved. could you then provide a date, we _ that were involved. could you then provide a date, we have _ that were involved. could you then provide a date, we have had - that were involved. could you then provide a date, we have had this i provide a date, we have had this question already, but could you provide a date in which this is first raised? your board minutes would presumably reflect that. if you can't do it now, will you come back and report to the committee. you also say... we have heard from the opening remarks of that year

about the moral obligation. as far as i can understand it, you are sitting in front of us are saying you want to help, you led the prosecutions against people who were wrongly accused of doing things, and yet the horizon compensatory advisory board say you are responsible for the delay because lots of the evidence has been lot or destroyed by the post office. information that could give people the justice they seek. i information that could give people the justice they seek.— the 'ustice they seek. i think it has the justice they seek. i think it has been well _ the justice they seek. i think it has been well documented - the justice they seek. i think it has been well documented in i the justice they seek. i think it i has been well documented in the inquiry— has been well documented in the inquiry that the challenge within our organisation of data and the protection — our organisation of data and the protection of data over the last 20 years _ protection of data over the last 20 years has— protection of data over the last 20 years has been very poor. we have wrestled, — years has been very poor. we have wrestled, probably the best way to describe _ wrestled, probably the best way to describe it, to provide as much data as possible — describe it, to provide as much data as possible. we have a 60 million

different— as possible. we have a 60 million different documents we have provided to the _ different documents we have provided to the inquiry, we have been through 500,000 _ to the inquiry, we have been through 500,000 individual documents we have actually— 500,000 individual documents we have actually had to go through. so this is arr— actually had to go through. so this is an extremely complex beast and i don't _ is an extremely complex beast and i don't think— is an extremely complex beast and i don't think anybody would be surprised, having listened to the evidence — surprised, having listened to the evidence just from today, that over the tast— evidence just from today, that over the last 25— evidence just from today, that over the last 25 years, it is going to be extremely— the last 25 years, it is going to be extremely complicated to get hold of all of this— extremely complicated to get hold of all of this data and documentation, but be _ all of this data and documentation, but be assured, we fully recognise that we _ but be assured, we fully recognise that we need to do that. it is extremely important. if i may comment— extremely important. if i may comment on your question about wood postmasters want to see senior executives, this is an offer, we don't _ executives, this is an offer, we don't go — executives, this is an offer, we don't go and present ourselves. 45 have _ don't go and present ourselves. 45 have so— don't go and present ourselves. 45 have so far — don't go and present ourselves. 45 have so far. what i have said to victims — have so far. what i have said to victims is, _ have so far. what i have said to victims is, and i have been very expiicit — victims is, and i have been very explicit about this over the last couple — explicit about this over the last couple of — explicit about this over the last couple of years, if there is an opportunity for any sort of redress,

a policy— opportunity for any sort of redress, a policy -- — opportunity for any sort of redress, a policy -- an— opportunity for any sort of redress, a policy —— an apology on a personal level. _ a policy —— an apology on a personal level. i_ a policy —— an apology on a personal level. i am — a policy —— an apology on a personal level, i am willing to do it. we have _ level, i am willing to do it. we have heard _ level, i am willing to do it. we have heard today that the trauma, and i_ have heard today that the trauma, and i use — have heard today that the trauma, and i use the word advisedly, the trauma _ and i use the word advisedly, the trauma can — and i use the word advisedly, the trauma can be at least reduced or slightly— trauma can be at least reduced or slightly reduced when they have an opportunity to speak to the head of the organisation that ultimately may well have _ the organisation that ultimately may well have been responsible for what they have _ well have been responsible for what they have been through. that trauma can be alleviated _ they have been through. that trauma can be alleviated by _ they have been through. that trauma can be alleviated by you _ they have been through. that trauma can be alleviated by you are - can be alleviated by you are streamlining the system, making it less bureaucratic, and what we have heard is that you feed into a system, we even heard it from the first panel, where the face—to—face engagement is very good but the bureaucratic system behind it is an absolute disaster. are you committing out to saying you will go away, both of you, will go away and make the changes necessary to make sure the bureaucratic process is sped up to be made more efficient. we will work with government to make

sure if— we will work with government to make sure if it _ we will work with government to make sure if it is _ we will work with government to make sure if it is the evidential level that needs to be dropped, if it is interim — that needs to be dropped, if it is interim payments that need to be made _ interim payments that need to be made permanent, whatever it takes to do that, _ made permanent, whatever it takes to do that, we _ made permanent, whatever it takes to do that, we will work with officials to make _ do that, we will work with officials to make sure we get the right guidance _ to make sure we get the right uuidance. ., ., , to make sure we get the right guidance-— guidance. proof will be in the action rather _ guidance. proof will be in the action rather than _ guidance. proof will be in the action rather than words. - guidance. proof will be in the i action rather than words. lastly, why are you still using the horizon system? i understand ibm was looked at, amazon was looked at. are you using them because no one else can do it? or are you failing to innovate and look at new suppliers? not at all. i uncommitted to get off horizon _ not at all. i uncommitted to get off horizon i_ not at all. i uncommitted to get off horizon. i have had that conversation regularly and we are both committed to make sure there is a new— both committed to make sure there is a new and _ both committed to make sure there is a new and upgraded system. it is outdated, — a new and upgraded system. it is outdated, it is currently, it is old, — outdated, it is currently, it is old. but _ outdated, it is currently, it is old. but it _ outdated, it is currently, it is old, but it does what it is meant to do, old, but it does what it is meant to do. but _ old, but it does what it is meant to do. but we — old, but it does what it is meant to do, but we are clear we need a modern — do, but we are clear we need a modern system for a modern post office _ modern system for a modern post office and — modern system for a modern post office and we will be getting off

post office —— micro horizon. is post office —— micro horizon. [55 there post office —— micro horizon. there a post office —— micro horizon. is there a horizon programming code in any of your other systems? no. do you believe you should be paying back the money due to the damage it has been caused? that contract. even two directed at compensation schemes?— two directed at compensation schemes? , , ., ., ~' two directed at compensation schemes? , , ., ., ,, ., schemes? the inquiry is looking into those tepics- — schemes? the inquiry is looking into those topics i _ schemes? the inquiry is looking into those topics. i have _ schemes? the inquiry is looking into those topics. i have already - schemes? the inquiry is looking into those topics. i have already told - those topics. i have already told the select — those topics. i have already told the select committee. - those topics. i have already told the select committee. we - those topics. i have already told the select committee. we will. those topics. i have already told i the select committee. we will take the select committee. we will take the advice — the select committee. we will take the advice from _ the select committee. we will take the advice from sir— the select committee. we will take the advice from sir wyn _ the select committee. we will take the advice from sir wyn and - the select committee. we will take the advice from sir wyn and look. the select committee. we will take| the advice from sir wyn and look to compensate, — the advice from sir wyn and look to compensate. you _ the advice from sir wyn and look to compensate, you used _ the advice from sir wyn and look to compensate, you used the - the advice from sir wyn and look to compensate, you used the word - compensate, you used the word moraiiv. — compensate, you used the word moraiiv. i— compensate, you used the word moraiiv. iatso _ compensate, you used the word morally, i also think— compensate, you used the word morally, i also think it - compensate, you used the word morally, i also think it is - compensate, you used the word morally, i also think it is a - compensate, you used the wordl morally, i also think it is a moral point, _ morally, i also think it is a moral point, and — morally, i also think it is a moral point. and we _ morally, i also think it is a moral point, and we will— morally, i also think it is a moral point, and we will look— morally, i also think it is a moral point, and we will look to - point, and we will look to contribute _ point, and we will look to contribute to— point, and we will look to contribute to the - point, and we will look to contribute to the redress| point, and we will look to . contribute to the redress or compensation _ contribute to the redress or compensation scheme. - contribute to the redress or compensation scheme. with that last oint, this compensation scheme. with that last point. this idea _ compensation scheme. with that last point, this idea of _ compensation scheme. with that last point, this idea of contributing, - point, this idea of contributing, how much of a contribution have you as an organisation estimated to date you need to pay? i as an organisation estimated to date you need to pay?— you need to pay? i have not got any estimate at — you need to pay? i have not got any estimate at all. _

you need to pay? i have not got any estimate at all. i _ you need to pay? i have not got any estimate at all. i do _ you need to pay? i have not got any estimate at all. i do not _ you need to pay? i have not got any estimate at all. i do not presume i you need to pay? i have not got any estimate at all. i do not presume to calculate _ estimate at all. i do not presume to calculate that — estimate at all. i do not presume to calculate that. i— estimate at all. i do not presume to calculate that. i think— estimate at all. i do not presume to calculate that. i think it _ estimate at all. i do not presume to calculate that. i think it is _ estimate at all. i do not presume to calculate that. i think it is right- calculate that. i think it is right and proper— calculate that. i think it is right and proper that— calculate that. i think it is right and proper that we _ calculate that. i think it is right and proper that we allow- calculate that. i think it is right and proper that we allow the l calculate that. i think it is right- and proper that we allow the inquiry to discover— and proper that we allow the inquiry to discover where _ and proper that we allow the inquiry to discover where the _ and proper that we allow the inquiry to discover where the responsibility| to discover where the responsibility lies, to discover where the responsibility ties, and _ to discover where the responsibility lies, and responsibility— to discover where the responsibility lies, and responsibility lies- to discover where the responsibility lies, and responsibility lies in- lies, and responsibility lies in many— lies, and responsibility lies in many places. _ lies, and responsibility lies in many places, but _ lies, and responsibility lies in many places, but also - lies, and responsibility lies in many places, but also insidel many places, but also inside fujitsu _ many places, but also inside fu'itsu. ~ , , , ., fujitsu. will fu'itsu be bidding for other fujitsu. will fujitsu be bidding for other government _ fujitsu. will fujitsu be bidding for other government contracts - fujitsu. will fujitsu be bidding for other government contracts while j fujitsu. will fujitsu be bidding for - other government contracts while the inquiry is going on? or should you withdraw until the inquiry has been heard and fujitsu's culpability has been decided? taste heard and fujitsu's culpability has been decided?— been decided? we provide many services to _ been decided? we provide many services to government - been decided? we provide many services to government today i been decided? we provide many i services to government today across a range — services to government today across a range of — services to government today across a range of services. _ services to government today across a range of services. we _ services to government today across a range of services. we have - services to government today across a range of services. we have regular conversations— a range of services. we have regular conversations with _ a range of services. we have regular conversations with the _ a range of services. we have regular conversations with the department i conversations with the department about— conversations with the department about our— conversations with the department about our performance. _ conversations with the department about our performance. going i about our performance. going forward, — about our performance. going forward, to— about our performance. going forward, to your— about our performance. going forward, to your specific - about our performance. going i forward, to your specific question, we will— forward, to your specific question, we will look— forward, to your specific question, we will look at _ forward, to your specific question, we will look at every _ forward, to your specific question, we will look at every opportunity l forward, to your specific question, i we will look at every opportunity to determine — we will look at every opportunity to determine whether— we will look at every opportunity to determine whether we _ we will look at every opportunity to determine whether we bid - we will look at every opportunity to determine whether we bid or- we will look at every opportunity to determine whether we bid or not. i we will look at every opportunity to| determine whether we bid or not. it is very— determine whether we bid or not. it is very clear — determine whether we bid or not. it is very clear that _ determine whether we bid or not. it is very clear that our— determine whether we bid or not. it is very clear that our brand - determine whether we bid or not. it is very clear that our brand and i i is very clear that our brand and i work— is very clear that our brand and i work vaiue — is very clear that our brand and i work value in— is very clear that our brand and i work value in the _ is very clear that our brand and i work value in the uk _ is very clear that our brand and i work value in the uk and - is very clear that our brand and i i work value in the uk and government is under— work value in the uk and government is under question— work value in the uk and government is under question and _ work value in the uk and government is under question and we _ work value in the uk and government is under question and we will- work value in the uk and government is under question and we will look- is under question and we will look at all— is under question and we will look at all of— is under question and we will look at all of those _ is under question and we will look at all of those opportunities - is under question and we will look at all of those opportunities and l at all of those opportunities and decide _ at all of those opportunities and decide yes — at all of those opportunities and decide yes or— at all of those opportunities and decide yes or no. _ at all of those opportunities and decide yes or no.— at all of those opportunities and decide yes or no. because fu'itsu has benefited i

decide yes or no. because fu'itsu has benefited from i decide yes or no. because fu'itsu has benefited from £93 i decide yes or no. because fujitsu has benefited from £93 million i decide yes or no. because fujitsu has benefited from £93 million in contract extensions to continue operating the flawed horizon system. we will contribute to the compensation _ we will contribute to the compensation fund i we will contribute to the compensation fund or. we will contribute to the i compensation fund or redress we will contribute to the _ compensation fund or redress fund. i do not _ compensation fund or redress fund. i do not want — compensation fund or redress fund. i do not want to— compensation fund or redress fund. i do not want to run _ compensation fund or redress fund. i do not want to run this _ compensation fund or redress fund. i do not want to run this system. i compensation fund or redress fund. i do not want to run this system. youl do not want to run this system. you a- eared do not want to run this system. appeared before the committee in january 2022 and told us that the victims' payments to make up the shortfall, much of which came from life savings, people remortgaging their properties, was split into general suspense accounts which the post office did not hold backwards beyond 2005 will stop white with the post office not track money? it is post office not track money? it is something _ post office not track money? it is something we _ post office not track money? it is something we need to get to the bottom _ something we need to get to the bottom of. they were, to my understanding, two reviews to try to

understand — understanding, two reviews to try to understand exactly what the outcomes were _ understand exactly what the outcomes were i_ understand exactly what the outcomes were. i think it is inconclusive. it is frustrating.— is frustrating. how regularly is it that the post — is frustrating. how regularly is it that the post office _ is frustrating. how regularly is it that the post office does - is frustrating. how regularly is it that the post office does not i is frustrating. how regularly is it l that the post office does not track many within the company? clearly, that is something _ many within the company? clearly, that is something we _ many within the company? clearly, that is something we do _ many within the company? clearly, that is something we do regularly l that is something we do regularly now _ that is something we do regularly now we — that is something we do regularly now. we are running a business today — now. we are running a business toda . ~ ., , now. we are running a business toda . ~ ., ., now. we are running a business toda. ., .,,, ,, now. we are running a business toda . ~ ., .,,, ,, today. was it not a business back then? i today. was it not a business back then? i can't _ today. was it not a business back then? i can't comment _ today. was it not a business back then? i can't comment on - today. was it not a business back then? i can't comment on the i then? i can't comment on the secifics then? i can't comment on the specifics of — then? i can't comment on the specifics of what _ then? i can't comment on the specifics of what was - then? i can't comment on the l specifics of what was happening then? i can't comment on the - specifics of what was happening over ten years— specifics of what was happening over ten years ago, but from my perspective, you can be assured that the protocols and controls have now been put _ the protocols and controls have now been put in — the protocols and controls have now been put in place. we have addressed all the _ been put in place. we have addressed all the issues that were part of the 2019judgment, the recommendations 2019 judgment, the recommendations that were _ 2019judgment, the recommendations that were made, that actually the system _ that were made, that actually the system is — that were made, that actually the system is stable, is clunky, sure, but stable, — system is stable, is clunky, sure, but stable, and it does the job that it does _ but stable, and it does the job that it does. and we have been involving our postmasters to make sure it is doing _ our postmasters to make sure it is doing the — our postmasters to make sure it is doing the job that postmasters need

it to do _ doing the job that postmasters need it to do today, but we are very clear— it to do today, but we are very clear that _ it to do today, but we are very clear that we can upgrade that system, — clear that we can upgrade that system, which is why we are intending _ system, which is why we are intending to get off horizon and move _ intending to get off horizon and move to — intending to get off horizon and move to a — intending to get off horizon and move to a new system. any executives, — move to a new system. any executives, directors i move to a new system. any executives, directors on i move to a new system. jifiy executives, directors on the board who were present at the time, who were then informed, as we will hopefully here, about their system, and yet continue the facade as everything was fine. are they unfit to hold directorships in any company, both public or private? any of the individuals in the post office, the senior individuals on the board, should they ever be allowed to sit on any board of any company if they were aware and yet did not come forward or seek to address this issue at the time? are they fit for those directorships, which will come with whopping salaries and whopping bonuses, in any company? if salaries and whopping bonuses, in any company?— salaries and whopping bonuses, in an coman ? . ,,., . any company? if evidence is produced that there was — any company? if evidence is produced that there was some _ any company? if evidence is produced that there was some sort _ any company? if evidence is produced that there was some sort of— that there was some sort of cover-up. _ that there was some sort of cover—up, action needs to be taken.

even _ cover—up, action needs to be taken. even those — cover—up, action needs to be taken. even those who were sat there and were told things were going wrong and yet private prosecutions were still allowed.— still allowed. that is exactly why. if there is culpability, _ still allowed. that is exactly why. if there is culpability, people i still allowed. that is exactly why. | if there is culpability, people need to be _ if there is culpability, people need to be held — if there is culpability, people need to be held to account. will if there is culpability, people need to be held to account.— to be held to account. will you be allowed to — to be held to account. will you be allowed to let _ to be held to account. will you be allowed to let the _ to be held to account. will you be allowed to let the committee i to be held to account. will you be| allowed to let the committee know when fujitsu first raised concerns with the post office. i am assuming that would have been brought to the board's attention. we that would have been brought to the board's attention.— that would have been brought to the board's attention. we will come back to ou. board's attention. we will come back to you- very — board's attention. we will come back to you. very briefly, _ board's attention. we will come back to you. very briefly, what _ board's attention. we will come back to you. very briefly, what has - board's attention. we will come back to you. very briefly, what has the i to you. very briefly, what has the post office _ to you. very briefly, what has the post office done _ to you. very briefly, what has the post office done to _ to you. very briefly, what has the post office done to reach - to you. very briefly, what has the post office done to reach out i to you. very briefly, what has the post office done to reach out to l to you. very briefly, what has the l post office done to reach out to the sub—postmasters who have not yet come forward. a lot of people are extremely concerned, frightened to do so. i presume that you have got the information, you have got their details, because you have recovered money from most of them and others have been prosecuted as a result of

the post office. what have you done to reach out? and can you give a commitment that you will reach out to these people?— commitment that you will reach out to these people? absolutely. one of the challenges _ to these people? absolutely. one of the challenges we _ to these people? absolutely. one of the challenges we have _ to these people? absolutely. one of the challenges we have was - to these people? absolutely. one of the challenges we have was that i the challenges we have was that there _ the challenges we have was that there was— the challenges we have was that there was a real reluctance for postmasters to come forward to the post office. the notion that the post _ post office. the notion that the post office. the notion that the post office where the individuals they would have to come to for any losses _ they would have to come to for any losses was — they would have to come to for any losses was a — they would have to come to for any losses was a problem. we sat in this committee _ losses was a problem. we sat in this committee room and we described how we were _ committee room and we described how we were going to set up a scheme to contact _ we were going to set up a scheme to contact postmasters directly, we gave _ contact postmasters directly, we gave a _ contact postmasters directly, we gave a package to citizens advice so they could _ gave a package to citizens advice so they could do the same, and mp5, so they could do the same, and mp5, so they could _ they could do the same, and mp5, so they could contact postmasters. what has happened as a consequence of the drama, _ has happened as a consequence of the drama, some 200 postmasters have come _ drama, some 200 postmasters have come forward. we have had 31 who have _ come forward. we have had 31 who have come — come forward. we have had 31 who have come directly to us as a consequence of the drama, so that is good _ consequence of the drama, so that is good. raising awareness is a good

thing _ good. raising awareness is a good thing in _ good. raising awareness is a good thing in the sense that it is bringing _ thing in the sense that it is bringing people forward. however, as we have _ bringing people forward. however, as we have said before, one should not 'ust we have said before, one should not just assume — we have said before, one should not just assume that the drama in itself is going _ just assume that the drama in itself is going to — just assume that the drama in itself is going to bring people forward. we want to— is going to bring people forward. we want to continue and we will continue _ want to continue and we will continue to do so, but you will not be surprised — continue to do so, but you will not be surprised that many postmasters tell us _ be surprised that many postmasters tell us not _ be surprised that many postmasters tell us not to contact them, continually saying, you are trying to get _ continually saying, you are trying to get us— continually saying, you are trying to get us to come forward or present to get us to come forward or present to us— to get us to come forward or present to us situations where we may have had losses — to us situations where we may have had losses or shortfalls, but a lot of postmasters simply want to move on, of postmasters simply want to move on. a _ of postmasters simply want to move on. a lot— of postmasters simply want to move on. a lot of— of postmasters simply want to move on, a lot of these victims, and that is a desperately concerning situation. people need redress, peopie — situation. people need redress, people are having trauma, and it is something — people are having trauma, and it is something i— people are having trauma, and it is something i have had first—hand experience of observing. i was in this building yesterday with an mp and a _ this building yesterday with an mp and a victim of the scandal and she was mentioning or saying to me that reliving _ was mentioning or saying to me that reliving of— was mentioning or saying to me that reliving of the last ten days, because _ reliving of the last ten days, because of the enormous amount of publicity. _ because of the enormous amount of publicity, has been extremely

stressful and traumatising for many of those _ stressful and traumatising for many of those victims. i think we need to recognise _ of those victims. i think we need to recognise that that is going on. they— recognise that that is going on. they clearly want us to accelerate through _ they clearly want us to accelerate through and redress is the most important — through and redress is the most important thing we can do. basically, the excuse of not getting in touch with sub—postmasters because they want to move on is extremely shallow. it is extremely important that you reach out to every single person who you have got on record of having money recovered. we have definitely done that. i we have definitely done that. i think we have definitely done that. i think that is a duty that the post office should carry out. you think that is a duty that the post office should carry out.- office should carry out. you 'oin the post office i office should carry out. you 'oin the post office in i office should carry out. you 'oin the post office in 2015. i office should carry out. you join the post office in 2015. 2019. i office should carry out. you join | the post office in 2015. 2019. but ou have the post office in 2015. 2019. but you have reviewed _ the post office in 2015. 2019. but you have reviewed board - the post office in 2015. 2019. but you have reviewed board minutes going back beyond that point. certainly specific ones, yes. 50 i certainly specific ones, yes. so i know you _ certainly specific ones, yes. so i know you can't _ certainly specific ones, yes. so i know you can't give _ certainly specific ones, yes. so i know you can't give us _ certainly specific ones, yes. ’ir i know you can't give us an certainly specific ones, yes. 5r i know you can't give us an exact date, month or year when you first

saw horizon referenced in any kind of board paper, but would you... do you have a recollection that at some point before 2015, there was a reference to horizon and some possible issues. you must have a vague recollection, having reviewed all those documents. i am not asking for a date. pre—2015, was there any mention of possible issues? in for a date. pre-2015, was there any mention of possible issues?- mention of possible issues? in the board minutes? _ mention of possible issues? in the board minutes? in _ mention of possible issues? in the board minutes? in any— mention of possible issues? in the board minutes? in any documents| mention of possible issues? in the i board minutes? in any documents you have seen? — board minutes? in any documents you have seen? yes. _ board minutes? in any documents you have seen? yes, in _ board minutes? in any documents you have seen? yes, in documents - board minutes? in any documents you have seen? yes, in documents we i board minutes? in any documents you l have seen? yes, in documents we have submitted to — have seen? yes, in documents we have submitted to sir— have seen? yes, in documents we have submitted to sir wyn. _ have seen? yes, in documents we have submitted to sir wyn. so _ have seen? yes, in documents we have submitted to sir wyn. so when - have seen? yes, in documents we have submitted to sir wyn. so when one i have seen? yes, in documents we have submitted to sir wyn. so when one of l submitted to sir wyn. so when one of our submitted to sir wyn. so when one of your predecessors _ submitted to sir wyn. so when one of your predecessors told _ submitted to sir wyn. so when one of your predecessors told this _ your predecessors told this committee that prosecutions were sound, was parliament misled? i don't know if i can specifically idon't know if i can specifically comment— i don't know if i can specifically comment on that.— i don't know if i can specifically comment on that. you are under parliamentary — comment on that. you are under parliamentary privilege, - comment on that. you are under parliamentary privilege, you i comment on that. you are under parliamentary privilege, you can | comment on that. you are under i parliamentary privilege, you can see the truth. ~ . ., , .,

the truth. what we have seen and what we have _ the truth. what we have seen and what we have heard _ the truth. what we have seen and what we have heard is _ the truth. what we have seen and what we have heard is that - what we have heard is that individuals who had been prosecuted, and that— individuals who had been prosecuted, and that those individuals at the -et and that those individuals at the get all— and that those individuals at the get all the way back, have been prosecuted on the basis of information that may be erroneous. yes, _ information that may be erroneous. yes. i_ information that may be erroneous. yes. ithink— information that may be erroneous. yes, i think that something that we have heard — yes, i think that something that we have heard from the inquiry. from the information _ have heard from the inquiry. from the information you _ have heard from the inquiry. from the information you have - have heard from the inquiry. from the information you have seen, i have heard from the inquiry. h...” the information you have seen, we do have said to this committee that all prosecutions were sound in 2015 having seen what you have now seen? i don't think i can give you a straight _ i don't think i can give you a straight answer on that because there _ straight answer on that because there is— straight answer on that because there is so— straight answer on that because there is so much more context reguired — there is so much more context required. we have been very, very clear— required. we have been very, very clear that — required. we have been very, very clear that sir — required. we have been very, very clear that sir wyn is going to get to the _ clear that sir wyn is going to get to the bottom of these details and that's— to the bottom of these details and that's what we think is the right thing _ that's what we think is the right thing to— that's what we think is the right thing to do. i don't think it a mad place _ thing to do. i don't think it a mad place to— thing to do. i don't think it a mad place to prejudge that. do thing to do. i don't think it a mad place to prejudge that.— thing to do. i don't think it a mad place to prejudge that. place to pre'udge that. do you think the culture place to prejudge that. do you think the culture of— place to prejudge that. do you think the culture of the _ place to prejudge that. do you think the culture of the post _ place to prejudge that. do you think the culture of the post office i place to prejudge that. do you think the culture of the post office at i the culture of the post office at the culture of the post office at the time back in 2015 was to cover up the time back in 2015 was to cover

up failings? the time back in 2015 was to cover upfailings?” the time back in 2015 was to cover up failings?— the time back in 2015 was to cover up failings? i can't comment on... i'm asking — up failings? i can't comment on... i'm asking for— up failings? i can't comment on... i'm asking for your _ up failings? i can't comment on... i'm asking for your opinion. - up failings? i can't comment on... i'm asking for your opinion. i - up failings? i can't comment on... i'm asking for your opinion. i think it is unreasonable _ i'm asking for your opinion. i think it is unreasonable for— i'm asking for your opinion. i think it is unreasonable for me - i'm asking for your opinion. i think it is unreasonable for me to - i'm asking for your opinion. i think it is unreasonable for me to do - it is unreasonable for me to do that _ it is unreasonable for me to do that. . . it is unreasonable for me to do that. ., ., ., , that. having read through board minutes and _ that. having read through board minutes and documents - that. having read through board minutes and documents that - that. having read through board i minutes and documents that would indicate to you that there was knowledge that the system was unsound, you can say that it was wrong to say in 2015 all prosecutions were sound? i think what has become _ prosecutions were sound? i think what has become apparent - prosecutions were sound? i think what has become apparent as - prosecutions were sound? i think| what has become apparent as are prosecutions were sound? i think . what has become apparent as are all prosecutions were not sound. 30 what has become apparent as are all prosecutions were not sound. 50 for prosecutions were not sound. so for some to say — prosecutions were not sound. so for some to say that — prosecutions were not sound. so for some to say that in _ prosecutions were not sound. so for some to say that in 2015? _ prosecutions were not sound. so for some to say that in 2015? whether. prosecutions were not sound. so for. some to say that in 2015? whether or not that was — some to say that in 2015? whether or not that was pure _ some to say that in 2015? whether or not that was pure knowledge, - some to say that in 2015? whether or not that was pure knowledge, i - not that was pure knowledge, i cannot— not that was pure knowledge, i cannot comment. they will be coming before _ cannot comment. they will be coming before the _ cannot comment. they will be coming before the inquiry in the next few months _ before the inquiry in the next few months or— before the inquiry in the next few months or so, so people will be able to speak— months or so, so people will be able to speak first hand, they will be writing — to speak first hand, they will be writing witness statements, what they knew, what they didn't know. using _ they knew, what they didn't know. using the — they knew, what they didn't know. using the inquiry as a not be curious, to curious, to try to avoid

answering questions. mt; curious, to curious, to try to avoid answering questions.— answering questions. my 'ob is to make — answering questions. my 'ob is to make sure that h answering questions. my 'ob is to make sure that redress _ answering questions. my job is to make sure that redress is - answering questions. my job is to | make sure that redress is speedily delivered — make sure that redress is speedily delivered to our victims, and most importantly, that i run the post office _ importantly, that i run the post office of— importantly, that i run the post office of today. myjob is not the investigative role played by sir wyn _ investigative role played by sir wyn he — investigative role played by sir wyn. he initiated an independent inquiry. _ wyn. he initiated an independent inquiry. it— wyn. he initiated an independent inquiry, it is now a statutory inquiry~ _ inquiry, it is now a statutory inquiry~ i_ inquiry, it is now a statutory inquiry. i think it's appropriate that— inquiry. i think it's appropriate that as — inquiry. i think it's appropriate that as the forum in which he addresses this. 25 that as the forum in which he addresses this.— that as the forum in which he addresses this. 25 years, and runnina addresses this. 25 years, and running the _ addresses this. 25 years, and running the business. - addresses this. 25 years, and running the business. do - addresses this. 25 years, and running the business. do you i addresses this. 25 years, and - running the business. do you think the post office _ running the business. do you think the post office abused _ running the business. do you think the post office abused his - running the business. do you think the post office abused his position to prosecute in order to cover up his own failings? i to prosecute in order to cover up his own failings?— his own failings? i think it is unreasonable _ his own failings? i think it is unreasonable to _ his own failings? i think it is unreasonable to ask - his own failings? i think it is unreasonable to ask these l his own failings? i think it is - unreasonable to ask these questions when _ unreasonable to ask these questions when the _ unreasonable to ask these questions when the knowledge is going to be addressed in the inquiry specifically. the individuals will be asked — specifically. the individuals will be asked those questions. the current chief _ be asked those questions. tue: current chief executive be asked those questions. tte: current chief executive has be asked those questions. tt9: current chief executive has said you're not going to pursue private prosecutions. do you think you abuse

at your position as an organisation to cover up? at your position as an organisation to cover up?— at your position as an organisation to cover u? , :, to cover up? there is nothing unique about private — to cover up? there is nothing unique about private prosecutions. - about private prosecutions. individuals and companies can bring private _ individuals and companies can bring private prosecutions, it is something that can occur. do i think it was— something that can occur. do i think it was an _ something that can occur. do i think it was an organisation to cover up? there _ it was an organisation to cover up? there is— it was an organisation to cover up? there is nothing unique about private — there is nothing unique about private prosecutions. individuals and companies can bring private prosecutions, it is something that can occur — prosecutions, it is something that can occur. do i think it was done in what _ can occur. do i think it was done in what is _ can occur. do i think it was done in what is going — can occur. do i think it was done in what is going to happen as we go through— what is going to happen as we go through this process. as what is going to happen as we go through this process.— what is going to happen as we go through this process. as the person who leads the _ through this process. as the person who leads the organisation - through this process. as the person who leads the organisation today, l who leads the organisation today, you must have a view on why the prosecutions of... what is a culture of trying to cover up the organisationson failings because of a lack of technical knowledge? was a people so scared of their own lack of knowledge that they thought the easy option was just to prosecute? t easy option was just to prosecute? i think there are a many number of yet that we _ think there are a many number of yet that we can _ think there are a many number of yet that we can address. as at the competency of the investigators, the auditors? _

competency of the investigators, the auditors? as the information supplied? is the asset collection? we have _ supplied? is the asset collection? we have talked about all of these things _ we have talked about all of these things. there are multiple reasons why _ things. there are multiple reasons why i_ things. there are multiple reasons why ithink— things. there are multiple reasons why. i think it is important we allow— why. i think it is important we allow sir— why. i think it is important we allow sir wyn to ask individuals lose questions and he builds up that picture _ lose questions and he builds up that picture my— lose questions and he builds up that picture. myjob is very clear, we are not— picture. myjob is very clear, we are not prosecution four prosecuting beobte _ are not prosecution four prosecuting people in— are not prosecution four prosecuting people in the post office. on my watch _ people in the post office. on my watch that has not occurred and it will not _ watch that has not occurred and it will not occur. myjob is to go back and investigate what happened in the organisation in the organisation of ore-2010 — organisation in the organisation of pre—2010. myjob today is to run the post office _ pre—2010. myjob today is to run the post office today to make sure that we have _ post office today to make sure that we have a _ post office today to make sure that we have a post office fit for purpose. _ we have a post office fit for purpose, and more importantly that we have _ purpose, and more importantly that we have postmasters who can go about doin- we have postmasters who can go about doing the _ we have postmasters who can go about doing the job that they have to do free of— doing the job that they have to do free of fear of any relationship they— free of fear of any relationship they might have had. it free of fear of any relationship they might have had. it sounds like ou are they might have had. it sounds like you are trying _ they might have had. it sounds like you are trying to — they might have had. it sounds like you are trying to suggest _ they might have had. it sounds like you are trying to suggest because l you are trying to suggest because there is an quite ongoing that you do not need to look back over history, the inquiry will deal wolf

all of that. but you're running the organisation to date that has a culture, the same organisation, i assume with thousands of people who work for it at the time all of this happen. the fact that you are not willing to look under the bonnet and ask try to answer questions because the inquiry will investigate it will indicates a lack of corporate curiosity which is worrying. t curiosity which is worrying. i disagree with that characterisation. i disagree with that characterisation. t have _ disagree with that characterisation. i have some 1700 colleagues who have been in _ i have some 1700 colleagues who have been in that— i have some 1700 colleagues who have been in that the organisation for more _ been in that the organisation for more than — been in that the organisation for more than ten years. i am acute the conscious— more than ten years. i am acute the conscious that myjob today is to put conscious that myjob today is to but the _ conscious that myjob today is to put the postmasters first. myjob more _ put the postmasters first. myjob more importantly is to create a culture — more importantly is to create a culture where people are supporting and serving postmasters, and that's my role _ and serving postmasters, and that's rny rote my— and serving postmasters, and that's my role. myjob is not to miss going backwards — my role. myjob is not to miss going backwards i— my role. myjob is not to miss going backwards. i don't think it is about addressing — backwards. i don't think it is about addressing those issues, i think it is about— addressing those issues, i think it is about making sure we have an

organisation today fit for purpose. does _ organisation today fit for purpose. does the — organisation today fit for purpose. does the post office still use nondisclosure agreements in reaching settlements with sub—postmasters? not to my knowledge. 50. settlements with sub-postmasters? not to my knowledge.— not to my knowledge. so, no nondisclosure _ not to my knowledge. so, no nondisclosure disclosures - not to my knowledge. so, no | nondisclosure disclosures have not to my knowledge. so, no - nondisclosure disclosures have been requested or sign since you took over as chief executive? will you check that the comeback? t tariff over as chief executive? will you check that the comeback? i will do it. mr patterson, _ check that the comeback? i will do it. mr patterson, you _ check that the comeback? i will do it. mr patterson, you said - check that the comeback? i will do it. mr patterson, you said earlier l it. mr patterson, you said earlier it. mr patterson, you said earlier it was clear _ it. mr patterson, you said earlier it was clear there _ it. mr patterson, you said earlier it was clear there were _ it. mr patterson, you said earlier it was clear there were bugs - it. mr patterson, you said earlier it was clear there were bugs in l it. mr patterson, you said earlier i it was clear there were bugs in the horizon system. you all the organisation are aware that those bugs could generate major discrepancies in accounting? we're not talking a system flickering or a minor bug. was the organisation aware that the bugs were so material that they could change the numbers? i don't have evidence in front of me that can _ i don't have evidence in front of me that can fix — i don't have evidence in front of me that can fix a — i don't have evidence in front of me that can fix a bug _ i don't have evidence in front of me that can fix a bug that _ i don't have evidence in front of me that can fix a bug that was - i don't have evidence in front of me

that can fix a bug that was presentl that can fix a bug that was present to a shortfatt~ _ that can fix a bug that was present to a shortfall. could _ that can fix a bug that was present to a shortfall. could they - that can fix a bug that was present to a shortfall. could they cause - to a shortfall. could they cause shortfalls? _ to a shortfall. could they cause shortfalls? yes, _ to a shortfall. could they cause shortfalls? yes, it _ to a shortfall. could they cause shortfalls? yes, it occurred. ii to a shortfall. could they cause i shortfalls? yes, it occurred. i now again— shortfalls? yes, it occurred. i now again that's — shortfalls? yes, it occurred. i now again that's a _ shortfalls? yes, it occurred. i now again that's a subject _ shortfalls? yes, it occurred. i now again that's a subject for- shortfalls? yes, it occurred. i now again that's a subject for the - again that's a subject for the inquiry _ again that's a subject for the inquiry. to _ again that's a subject for the inquiry. to your— again that's a subject for the inquiry. to your point - again that's a subject for the inquiry. to your point abouti again that's a subject for the - inquiry. to your point about scale, i don't _ inquiry. to your point about scale, i don't know— inquiry. to your point about scale, idon't know whether— inquiry. to your point about scale, i don't know whether it _ inquiry. to your point about scale, i don't know whether it was - inquiry. to your point about scale, i don't know whether it was big. inquiry. to your point about scale, i don't know whether it was big or| idon't know whether it was big or small— idon't know whether it was big or small but— i don't know whether it was big or small but i— idon't know whether it was big or small but i do— idon't know whether it was big or small but i do know— idon't know whether it was big or small but i do know that- i don't know whether it was big or small but i do know that you - i don't know whether it was big or| small but i do know that you could make _ small but i do know that you could make an _ small but i do know that you could make an impact _ small but i do know that you could make an impact. find _ small but i do know that you could make an impact.— small but i do know that you could make an impact. and view that was re orted make an impact. and view that was reported today _ make an impact. and view that was reported today the _ make an impact. and view that was reported today the post _ make an impact. and view that was reported today the post office? - make an impact. and view that was. reported today the post office? yes. have ou reported today the post office? yes. have you had — reported today the post office? yes. have you had conversations with your head office japan about fujitsu since you took over at the volvo? yes. : , ., , ., yes. and their view is that they are willin: to yes. and their view is that they are willing to make _ yes. and their view is that they are willing to make provisions - yes. and their view is that they are willing to make provisions once - yes. and their view is that they are willing to make provisions once a i willing to make provisions once a number is arrived at?— willing to make provisions once a number is arrived at? yes. that is the conversation _ number is arrived at? yes. that is the conversation we _ number is arrived at? yes. that is the conversation we expect - number is arrived at? yes. that is the conversation we expect on - number is arrived at? yes. that isj the conversation we expect on the conclusion, — the conversation we expect on the conclusion, to _ the conversation we expect on the conclusion, to absolutely - the conversation we expect on the conclusion, to absolutely have - the conversation we expect on thei conclusion, to absolutely have that conversation — conclusion, to absolutely have that conversation about _ conclusion, to absolutely have that conversation about our— conclusion, to absolutely have that| conversation about our contribution to the _ conversation about our contribution to the fund — conversation about our contribution to the fund or— conversation about our contribution to the fund or compensation. - conversation about our contribution to the fund or compensation. we . to the fund or compensation. we expect— to the fund or compensation. we expect to — to the fund or compensation. we expect to have _ to the fund or compensation. we expect to have that _ to the fund or compensation. we expect to have that conversationj expect to have that conversation with government. _ expect to have that conversation with government. find _ expect to have that conversation with government.— expect to have that conversation with government. and that is the view across _ with government. and that is the view across all _ with government. and that is the view across all of _

with government. and that is the view across all of fujitsu? - with government. and that is the view across all of fujitsu? it - with government. and that is the view across all of fujitsu? it is. l view across all of fu'itsu? it is. mr reid, * view across all of fu'itsu? it is. mr new. you h view across all of fujitsu? it is. mr reid, you talked _ view across all of fujitsu? it is. mr reid, you talked about - view across all of fujitsu? it is. mr reid, you talked about no l view across all of fujitsu? te 3 mr reid, you talked about no longer using nondisclosure agreements. if they were used at the pass were former sub—postmasters, with the pro—staff not block those nda is being breaking? irate pro-staff not block those nda is being breaking?— pro-staff not block those nda is being breaking? we wouldn't block those. being breaking? we wouldn't block those- people _ being breaking? we wouldn't block those. people should _ being breaking? we wouldn't block those. people should bring - being breaking? we wouldn't blockj those. people should bring forward and say _ those. people should bring forward and say exactly what they need to say. and say exactly what they need to say i _ and say exactly what they need to sa . , :, ., :, ., say. i 'ust need to rattle through a few say. ijust need to rattle through a few questions _ say. ijust need to rattle through a few questions that _ say. ijust need to rattle through a few questions that we _ say. ijust need to rattle through a few questions that we need - say. ijust need to rattle through a few questions that we need on - say. ijust need to rattle through aj few questions that we need on the record. mr reid, have you seen any evidence that post office executives misled ministers at any stage. trio. misled ministers at any stage. no. have ou misled ministers at any stage. no. have you seen _ misled ministers at any stage. no. have you seen any evidence that post office ministers misled parliament at any stage wins no. office ministers misled parliament at any stage win— office ministers misled parliament at any stage wins_ do | at any stage wins no, i hadn't. do ou at any stage wins no, i hadn't. do you believe _ at any stage wins no, i hadn't. do you believe that _ at any stage wins no, i hadn't. do you believe that the _ at any stage wins no, i hadn't. do you believe that the post - at any stage wins no, i hadn't. do you believe that the post office . you believe that the post office prosecuted the innocent knowing the case to be flawed? t prosecuted the innocent knowing the case to be flawed?— case to be flawed? i sincerely hope not, buti

case to be flawed? i sincerely hope not, but i have _ case to be flawed? i sincerely hope not, but i have had _ case to be flawed? i sincerely hope not, but i have had no _ case to be flawed? i sincerely hope not, but i have had no evidence - case to be flawed? i sincerely hope not, but i have had no evidence to| not, but i have had no evidence to that effect — not, but i have had no evidence to that effect. ethnic why do you think the post _ that effect. ethnic why do you think the post office for the provision of compensation to those who were unfairly _ compensation to those who were unfairly punished for so long. why did they fight _ unfairly punished for so long. why did they fight it? _ unfairly punished for so long. my did they fight it? why unfairly punished for so long. rmtg' did they fight it? why has unfairly punished for so long. "t1: did they fight it? why has the post office dragged its feet for so long in providing conversation to those... ads. in providing conversation to those... : : :, in providing conversation to those- - -_ in providing conversation to those... : : :, ., :, those... a culture of denial of? i can only assume _ those... a culture of denial of? i can only assume that _ those... a culture of denial of? i can only assume that is - those... a culture of denial of? i can only assume that is the - those... a culture of denial of? i | can only assume that is the case. those... a culture of denial of? i i can only assume that is the case. a lack of— can only assume that is the case. a lack of understanding, perhaps a lack of understanding, perhaps a lack of— lack of understanding, perhaps a lack of is — lack of understanding, perhaps a lack of is really going on. i think that is— lack of is really going on. i think that is perhaps the most important cultural— that is perhaps the most important cultural challenge in my organisation, to ensure that everybody in on the organisation sees _ everybody in on the organisation sees and — everybody in on the organisation sees and understands absolutely what has been _ sees and understands absolutely what has been going on. and i don't think that everybody in on the organisation sees and understands absolutely what has been going on. and i_ absolutely what has been going on. and i don't— absolutely what has been going on. and i don't think that's were you cooperating in full with the inquiry because _ cooperating in full with the inquiry because there have been some

reports — because there have been some reports i— because there have been some reports. i can assure you, we are working _ reports. i can assure you, we are working extremely hard to make sure that the _ working extremely hard to make sure that the inquiry has everything it needs— that the inquiry has everything it needs to — that the inquiry has everything it needs to come to the conclusion is that it _ needs to come to the conclusion is that it needs to come and see about what went— that it needs to come and see about what went wrong, what you went wrong and more _ what went wrong, what you went wrong and more importantly about what was responsible. the only way that the post office can move forward is by ensuring _ post office can move forward is by ensuring that the inquiry has what it needs _ ensuring that the inquiry has what it needs to— ensuring that the inquiry has what it needs to draw its conclusions, and more — it needs to draw its conclusions, and more importantly that it redresses... did and more importantly that it redresses. . ._ and more importantly that it redresses. .. did you offset a provision _ redresses. .. did you offset a provision for _ redresses. .. did you offset a provision for compensation l redresses. .. did you offset a - provision for compensation against the tax that you paid to the exchequer chris mike? there was a characterisation i think that bonuses have somehow been inflated _ that bonuses have somehow been inflated as a consequence of the treatment of tax and compensation. let treatment of tax and compensation. let me _ treatment of tax and compensation. let me assure you that nowt that is absolutely — let me assure you that nowt that is absolutely not the case. the tax

treatment — absolutely not the case. the tax treatment that we have for compensation, it states very clearly in the _ compensation, it states very clearly in the reporting accounts we are having _ in the reporting accounts we are having those conversations with hmro — having those conversations with hmro i— having those conversations with hmrc. i write to the chief secretary of the _ hmrc. i write to the chief secretary of the treasury about 18 months ago to discuss— of the treasury about 18 months ago to discuss this exact topic, and that— to discuss this exact topic, and that how— to discuss this exact topic, and that how we treat the conversation payments — that how we treat the conversation -a ments. ,:, , , that how we treat the conversation -a ments. , , ., payments. so, the bonuses and the tax were calculated _ payments. so, the bonuses and the tax were calculated of _ payments. so, the bonuses and the tax were calculated of the - payments. so, the bonuses and the tax were calculated of the same... l tax were calculated of the same... bonuses have nothing at all to do with the — bonuses have nothing at all to do with the tax treatment. the question is whether bonuses _ with the tax treatment. the question is whether bonuses and _ with the tax treatment. the question is whether bonuses and tax - with the tax treatment. the question is whether bonuses and tax were - is whether bonuses and tax were calculated off the same profit line. they were not. calculated off the same profit line. they were not-— calculated off the same profit line. they were not. they will off to make different profit _ they were not. they will off to make different profit line _ they were not. they will off to make different profit line is? _ they were not. they will off to make different profit line is? the - different profit line is? the financial metric _ different profit line is? the financial metric associated with the bonus _ financial metric associated with the bonus was — financial metric associated with the bonus was on a trading profit, as opposed — bonus was on a trading profit, as opposed to — bonus was on a trading profit, as opposed to on a compensation line. it opposed to on a compensation line. it was _ opposed to on a compensation line. it was a _ opposed to on a compensation line. it was a pre—tax line. so opposed to on a compensation line. it was a pre-tax line.— it was a pre-tax line. so you can see the concern? _ it was a pre-tax line. so you can see the concern? i _ it was a pre-tax line. so you can see the concern? i can - it was a pre-tax line. so you can see the concern? i can see - it was a pre-tax line. so you can| see the concern? i can see where it was a pre-tax line. so you can - see the concern? i can see where the concern is. — see the concern? i can see where the concern is. but _ see the concern? i can see where the concern is. but i _ see the concern? i can see where the concern is, but i can _ see the concern? i can see where the concern is, but i can assure _ see the concern? i can see where the

concern is, but i can assure you - concern is, but i can assure you that— concern is, but i can assure you that is— concern is, but i can assure you that is not— concern is, but i can assure you that is not the case. but concern is, but i can assure you that is not the case.— concern is, but i can assure you that is not the case. but you 'ust said that is �* that is not the case. but you 'ust said that is the i that is not the case. but you 'ust said that is the case, i that is not the case. but you 'ust said that is the case, that h that is not the case. but you just i said that is the case, that bonuses were collated on the trading profit, that the tax was... t were collated on the trading profit, that the tax was. . ._ that the tax was... i can write you to explain — that the tax was... i can write you to explain the _ that the tax was... i can write you to explain the situation. - that the tax was... i can write you to explain the situation. i - that the tax was... i can write you to explain the situation. i can - to explain the situation. i can assure — to explain the situation. i can assure you _ to explain the situation. i can assure you there is nothing unusual or peculiar — assure you there is nothing unusual or peculiar-— or peculiar. what we care about is whether are _ or peculiar. what we care about is whether are under _ or peculiar. what we care about is whether are under paying - or peculiar. what we care about is whether are under paying taxes. l or peculiar. what we care about is whether are under paying taxes. i | whether are under paying taxes. i can understand that concern. do whether are under paying taxes. i i can understand that concern. do you believe that — can understand that concern. do you believe that compliment _ can understand that concern. do you believe that compliment should - can understand that concern. do youj believe that compliment should help out compensation bill? t believe that compliment should help out compensation bill?— out compensation bill? i agree with what mr pattison _ out compensation bill? i agree with what mr pattison has _ out compensation bill? i agree with what mr pattison has said. - out compensation bill? i agree with what mr pattison has said. is - out compensation bill? i agree with what mr pattison has said. is that i out compensation bill? i agree with what mr pattison has said. is that a | what mr pattison has said. is that a yes? _ what mr pattison has said. is that a yes? yes — what mr pattison has said. is that a es? yes. :, what mr pattison has said. is that a es? yes. . :, :, yes? yes. that the horizon required fu'itsu yes? yes. that the horizon required fujitsu pass — yes? yes. that the horizon required fujitsu pass over— yes? yes. that the horizon required fujitsu pass over to _ yes? yes. that the horizon required fujitsu pass over to you _ yes? yes. that the horizon required fujitsu pass over to you information j fujitsu pass over to you information that was used in prosecutions? ianthem that was used in prosecutions? when the? when the _ that was used in prosecutions? when the? when the prosecutions - that was used in prosecutions? when the? when the prosecutions were - the? when the prosecutions were under way in _ the? when the prosecutions were under way in 2015. _ the? when the prosecutions were under way in 2015. i _ the? when the prosecutions were under way in 2015. i think - the? when the prosecutions were under way in 2015. i think it - the? when the prosecutions were under way in 2015. i think it did. l under way in 2015. i think it did. paula vennells _ under way in 2015. i think it did. paula vennells said _ under way in 2015. i think it did. paula vennells said that - under way in 2015. i think it did. paula vennells said that was - under way in 2015. i think it did. paula vennells said that was a l paula vennells said that was a fujitsu boss who said that horizon was like a photo knocks. do you know

who are new fujitsu made that comment? t who are new fu'itsu made that comment?— who are new fu'itsu made that comment?h you | who are new fu'itsu made that - comment?h you have comment? i don't know. you have -rovided comment? i don't know. you have provided no _ comment? i don't know. you have provided no legal— comment? i don't know. you have provided no legal assistance - comment? i don't know. you have provided no legal assistance to - provided no legal assistance to postmasters completing the horizon shortfall application form. do you think that lack of legal provision is ever going to produce a fair claim? tit is ever going to produce a fair claim? , claim? in the settlement, we specifically — claim? in the settlement, we specifically identified - claim? in the settlement, we specifically identified and - claim? in the settlement, we specifically identified and we | specifically identified and we wanted — specifically identified and we wanted a scheme that did not require le-al wanted a scheme that did not require legal support. we wanted it to be as quick— legal support. we wanted it to be as quick and _ legal support. we wanted it to be as quick and simple as possible, and that was— quick and simple as possible, and that was very much the second part of the _ that was very much the second part of the settlement. if that is to be reviewed — of the settlement. if that is to be reviewed we will review it. i think less than— reviewed we will review it. i think less than 10% of the scheme had legal— less than 10% of the scheme had legal representation. we have an appeals _ legal representation. we have an appeals process and it may well be that was— appeals process and it may well be that was overly bureaucratic. you acce at that was overly bureaucratic. you accept the _ that was overly bureaucratic. you accept the risk _ that was overly bureaucratic. gm. accept the risk that some sub—postmasters would be short—changed if they did not have legal advice race we specifically set up a scheme that we thought was

simple. set up a scheme that we thought was sim . le. :, set up a scheme that we thought was sim . le. . ., , set up a scheme that we thought was sim-le. . .,, ., set up a scheme that we thought was sim-le. . ., , , :, simple. the idea was a peephole. the idea was people _ simple. the idea was a peephole. the idea was people would _ simple. the idea was a peephole. the idea was people would not _ simple. the idea was a peephole. the idea was people would not need - simple. the idea was a peephole. the idea was people would not need legal| idea was people would not need legal representation. we have an independent appeals process and we would _ independent appeals process and we would be _ independent appeals process and we would be happy... i�*m independent appeals process and we would be happy---_ would be happy... i'm not sure --eole would be happy... i'm not sure people would _ would be happy... i'm not sure people would want _ would be happy... i'm not sure people would want to - would be happy... i'm not sure people would want to go - would be happy... i'm not sure l people would want to go through would be happy... i'm not sure - people would want to go through an appeals process. t can people would want to go through an appeals process-— appeals process. i can understand that. b appeals process. i can understand that- by the _ appeals process. i can understand that. by the same _ appeals process. i can understand that. by the same token, - appeals process. i can understand that. by the same token, 2400 i appeals process. i can understand - that. by the same token, 2400 people had been _ that. by the same token, 2400 people had been through the scheme. we have heard that there _ had been through the scheme. we have heard that there may _ had been through the scheme. we have heard that there may be _ had been through the scheme. we have heard that there may be hundreds - heard that there may be hundreds more out there. will you undertake to look again... riff more out there. will you undertake to look again. . ._ to look again... of course we will. when you — to look again... of course we will. when you have — to look again... of course we will. when you have made _ to look again... of course we will. when you have made a _ to look again... of course we will. | when you have made a settlement to look again... of course we will. i when you have made a settlement to sup you have said they are confidential and cannot be shown to anybody except a lawyer. the impact of that is that sub—postmasters cannot compare and contrast and talk to each other to see whether there is something funny going on. will you look again at those confidentiality rules? we you look again at those confidentiality rules? you look again at those confidentiali rules? ~ :, :, ~' confidentiality rules? we will look aaain. the

confidentiality rules? we will look again- the hss — confidentiality rules? we will look again. the hss guidances - confidentiality rules? we will look again. the hss guidances that i again. the hss guidances that sub-postmasters _ again. the hss guidances that sub-postmasters can - again. the hss guidances that sub-postmasters can only i again. the hss guidances that i sub-postmasters can only recover sub—postmasters can only recover damages for injury to representation, cruel reputations if they can show financial loss. you must know that is impossible? that is very difficult _ must know that is impossible? that is very difficult for _ must know that is impossible? that is very difficult for them to demonstrate that, i can see that. we had earlier about whether there might be some faults still in your system con can you reassure us that... and what safety net is feared that reassures people, because they may be instances in which people have heard accounts from people talking to them rather than talking to you. taste from people talking to them rather than talking to you.— from people talking to them rather than talking to you. we have better communication, _ than talking to you. we have better communication, we _ than talking to you. we have better communication, we have _

than talking to you. we have better| communication, we have overhauled the system. — communication, we have overhauled the system, there is no system