again. the hss guidances that sub-postmasters _ again. the hss guidances that sub-postmasters can - again. the hss guidances that sub-postmasters can only - again. the hss guidances that - sub-postmasters can only recover sub—postmasters can only recover damages for injury to representation, cruel reputations if they can show financial loss. you must know that is impossible? that is very difficult _ must know that is impossible? that is very difficult for _ must know that is impossible? that is very difficult for them to demonstrate that, i can see that. we had earlier about whether there might be some faults still in your system con can you reassure us that... and what safety net is feared that reassures people, because they may be instances in which people have heard accounts from people talking to them rather than talking to you. we from people talking to them rather than talking to you.— from people talking to them rather than talking to you. we have better communication, _ than talking to you. we have better communication, we _ than talking to you. we have better communication, we have _

than talking to you. we have better| communication, we have overhauled the system. — communication, we have overhauled the system, there is no system failure — the system, there is no system failure we — the system, there is no system failure we are aware of, and when a bu- failure we are aware of, and when a bug does— failure we are aware of, and when a bug does 0k, we contact all postmasters, we explain what the potential— postmasters, we explain what the potential impact might be, so the system _ potential impact might be, so the system bears no relation whatsoever to the _ system bears no relation whatsoever to the old _ system bears no relation whatsoever to the old system. do system bears no relation whatsoever to the old system.— to the old system. do you require shortfalls to _ to the old system. do you require shortfalls to be _ to the old system. do you require shortfalls to be made _ to the old system. do you require shortfalls to be made up - to the old system. do you require shortfalls to be made up for? - to the old system. do you require shortfalls to be made up for? we| shortfalls to be made up for? we make sure _ shortfalls to be made up for? we make sure we have a full investigative process and there will be no _ investigative process and there will be no paying up unless there is an agreement— be no paying up unless there is an agreement with the postmaster and the organisation, as opposed to the presumption of guilt, which was the previous— presumption of guilt, which was the previous methodology.— presumption of guilt, which was the previous methodology. thank you very much indeed- — previous methodology. thank you very much indeed. you _ previous methodology. thank you very much indeed. you have _ previous methodology. thank you very much indeed. you have left _ previous methodology. thank you very much indeed. you have left us - previous methodology. thank you very much indeed. you have left us fairly i much indeed. you have left us fairly shocked. you have not been able to supply the committee with key events in the timeline, such as when the post office first knew that remote access was possible, you have told us that you have not kept evidence safe about what money was paid to you inappropriately and therefore is owed back, and you can't estimate

the scale of compensation. we are grateful for the model commitment from fujitsu that they will share in the compensation payment, but that leaves us with many questions we need to put to the minister. that concludes this session. order, order. the chief executive of the post office being questioned by mps. also a representative from fujitsu in the uk as to what had happened in the run—up to so many postmasters and mistresses being convicted of crimes that they had not committed. we will soon be hearing from the post office minister, but earlier, appearing before mps, fujitsu europe director began by apologising to sub—postmasters and their families for what had happened. sub-postmasters and their families for what had happened.—

sub-postmasters and their families for what had happened. fu'itsu would like to apologise * for what had happened. fu'itsu would like to apologise for h for what had happened. fu'itsu would like to apologise for our _ for what had happened. fujitsu would like to apologise for our part - for what had happened. fujitsu would like to apologise for our part in - like to apologise for our part in this appalling _ like to apologise for our part in this appalling miscarriage - this appalling miscarriage of justice _ this appalling miscarriage of justice we _ this appalling miscarriage of justice. we were _ this appalling miscarriage of justice. we were involved i this appalling miscarriage of. justice. we were involved from this appalling miscarriage of- justice. we were involved from the very start, — justice. we were involved from the very start, we _ justice. we were involved from the very start, we did _ justice. we were involved from the very start, we did have _ justice. we were involved from the very start, we did have bugs - justice. we were involved from the very start, we did have bugs and l very start, we did have bugs and errors— very start, we did have bugs and errors in— very start, we did have bugs and errors in the _ very start, we did have bugs and errors in the system _ very start, we did have bugs and errors in the system and - very start, we did have bugs and errors in the system and we - very start, we did have bugs and errors in the system and we didl very start, we did have bugs and - errors in the system and we did help the post _ errors in the system and we did help the post office _ errors in the system and we did help the post office in _ errors in the system and we did help the post office in their— the post office in their prosecutions— the post office in their prosecutions of- the post office in their prosecutions of the - the post office in their— prosecutions of the sub—postmasters. for that, _ prosecutions of the sub—postmasters. for that, we _ prosecutions of the sub—postmasters. for that, we are — prosecutions of the sub—postmasters. for that, we are truly— prosecutions of the sub—postmasters. for that, we are truly sorry. _ prosecutions of the sub—postmasters. for that, we are truly sorry. to - for that, we are truly sorry. to your— for that, we are truly sorry. to your question _ for that, we are truly sorry. to your question around - for that, we are truly sorry. to your question around our- for that, we are truly sorry. to i your question around our ethics, i believe _ your question around our ethics, i believe we — your question around our ethics, i believe we are _ your question around our ethics, i believe we are an _ your question around our ethics, i believe we are an ethical- your question around our ethics, i. believe we are an ethical company. the company— believe we are an ethical company. the company today— believe we are an ethical company. the company today is _ believe we are an ethical company. the company today is quite - believe we are an ethical company. i the company today is quite different to the _ the company today is quite different to the company— the company today is quite different to the company in— the company today is quite different to the company in the _ the company today is quite different to the company in the early- the company today is quite different to the company in the early to - to the company in the early to thousands— to the company in the early to thousands and _ to the company in the early to thousands and clearly- to the company in the early to thousands and clearly we - to the company in the early to| thousands and clearly we need to the company in the early to i thousands and clearly we need to demonstrate _ thousands and clearly we need to demonstrate that— thousands and clearly we need to demonstrate that both _ thousands and clearly we need to demonstrate that both to - thousands and clearly we need to demonstrate that both to our- demonstrate that both to our customers, _ demonstrate that both to our customers, to _ demonstrate that both to our customers, to government. demonstrate that both to our. customers, to government and demonstrate that both to our- customers, to government and to wider— customers, to government and to wider society— customers, to government and to wider society in — customers, to government and to wider society in the _ customers, to government and to wider society in the uk. _ customers, to government and to wider society in the uk. [- customers, to government and to wider society in the uk.— customers, to government and to wider society in the uk. i have got in front of me _ wider society in the uk. i have got in front of me the _ wider society in the uk. i have got in front of me the fujitsu - wider society in the uk. i have got in front of me the fujitsu duff- in front of me the fujitsu duff conduct. it says, we treat customers, business partners and competitors fairly and with respect. did you live up to those values when it came to the sub—postmasters? trio. it came to the sub-postmasters? no, we did not- — it came to the sub-postmasters? no, we did not- it — it came to the sub-postmasters? no, we did not. it is _ it came to the sub—postmasters? no, we did not. it is very clear from the evidence _ we did not. it is very clear from the evidence before _ we did not. it is very clear from the evidence before the -

we did not. it is very clear from - the evidence before the committee and also _ the evidence before the committee and also in — the evidence before the committee and also in the _ the evidence before the committee and also in the inquiry— the evidence before the committee and also in the inquiry that - the evidence before the committee and also in the inquiry that our- and also in the inquiry that our standards— and also in the inquiry that our standards were _ and also in the inquiry that our standards were not _ and also in the inquiry that our standards were not at - and also in the inquiry that our standards were not at the - and also in the inquiry that our| standards were not at the level and also in the inquiry that our- standards were not at the level that we adhere _ standards were not at the level that we adhere to — standards were not at the level that we adhere to and _ standards were not at the level that we adhere to and state, _ standards were not at the level that we adhere to and state, as - standards were not at the level that we adhere to and state, as you - standards were not at the level that i we adhere to and state, as you read. i am we adhere to and state, as you read. i am personally— we adhere to and state, as you read. i am personally appalled _ we adhere to and state, as you read. i am personally appalled by - we adhere to and state, as you read. i am personally appalled by the - i am personally appalled by the evidence — i am personally appalled by the evidence that _ i am personally appalled by the evidence that i _ i am personally appalled by the evidence that i have _ i am personally appalled by the evidence that i have seen. - i am personally appalled by the | evidence that i have seen. what i am personally appalled by the l evidence that i have seen. what i saw on _ evidence that i have seen. what i saw on the — evidence that i have seen. what i saw on the television _ evidence that i have seen. what i saw on the television drama - evidence that i have seen. what i saw on the television drama andl evidence that i have seen. what i i saw on the television drama and the statements— saw on the television drama and the statements i— saw on the television drama and the statements i have _ saw on the television drama and the statements i have seen _ saw on the television drama and the statements i have seen from - saw on the television drama and the statements i have seen from the - statements i have seen from the victims _ statements i have seen from the victims to— statements i have seen from the victims to the _ statements i have seen from the victims to the inquiry. _ statements i have seen from the victims to the inquiry. so - statements i have seen from the victims to the inquiry. so we - statements i have seen from the victims to the inquiry. so we didl victims to the inquiry. so we did not stand — victims to the inquiry. so we did not stand up— victims to the inquiry. so we did not stand up to _ victims to the inquiry. so we did not stand up to that. _ not stand up to that. paut— not stand up to that. paul patterson, - not stand up to that. paul patterson, the. not stand up to that. - paul patterson, the director of fujitsu europe. the chief executive of the post office was criticised for failing to answer questions, or being able to, on a crucial element of the case. when do you think post office staff first knew that remote access to horizon terminals was possible? i horizon terminals was possible? i could not give you an exact date on that _ could not give you an exact date on that. ., , ., , ., ., that. that question is fundamental to this case- _ that. that question is fundamental to this case. what _ that. that question is fundamental to this case. what is _ that. that question is fundamental to this case. what is fundamentall to this case. what is fundamental from our perspective _ to this case. what is fundamental from our perspective is, -

to this case. what is fundamental from our perspective is, we - to this case. what is fundamental from our perspective is, we are l from our perspective is, we are facilitating _ from our perspective is, we are facilitating sir wyn getting to the bottom _ facilitating sir wyn getting to the bottom of these issues. how long have ou bottom of these issues. how long have you been — bottom of these issues. how long have you been the _ bottom of these issues. how long have you been the chief _ bottom of these issues. how longj have you been the chief executive now? ., , ., , have you been the chief executive now?_ you _ have you been the chief executive now?_ you must - have you been the chief executive | now?_ you must surely now? four years. you must surely have had time — now? four years. you must surely have had time in _ now? four years. you must surely have had time in four _ now? four years. you must surely have had time in four years - now? four years. you must surely have had time in four years to - now? four years. you must surely have had time in four years to cut| have had time in four years to cut to the heart of this issue, which is when did the post office no remote access to terminals was possible? my role coming into the post office is to do— role coming into the post office is to do a _ role coming into the post office is to do a number of things. of course it is to _ to do a number of things. of course it is to speed — to do a number of things. of course it is to speed up as much as we can come _ it is to speed up as much as we can come as— it is to speed up as much as we can come as quickly as we can, the compensation... come as quickly as we can, the compensation. . ._ come as quickly as we can, the compensation... surely you must be tellin: sir compensation... surely you must be telling sir wyn's _ compensation... surely you must be telling sir wyn's inquiry _ compensation... surely you must be telling sir wyn's inquiry when - telling sir wyn's inquiry when someone in the post office knew that remote access to terminals was possible. remote access to terminals was ossible. ~ , , ., ,, possible. we will be providing sir n with possible. we will be providing sir wyn with all _ possible. we will be providing sir wyn with all the _ possible. we will be providing sir wyn with all the information... . possible. we will be providing sir i wyn with all the information... but what is the — wyn with all the information... emit what is the answer? wyn with all the information... but what is the answer? i _ wyn with all the information... but what is the answer? i have - wyn with all the information... but what is the answer? i have not - wyn with all the information... but what is the answer? i have not got| what is the answer? i have not got that specific _ what is the answer? i have not got that specific date. _ what is the answer? i have not got that specific date. i _ what is the answer? i have not got that specific date. i can _ what is the answer? i have not got that specific date. i can come - what is the answer? i have not got that specific date. i can come back to you _ to you. the chief to you. — the chief executive since 2000 that 19 of the post office. live now to a former sub—postmaster.

welcome back. were you in any way reassured by what you heard, or were you, like the mps, a bit disappointed that neither fujitsu nor the current boss of the post office seem to be able to answer some fairly fundamental questions? abs, some fairly fundamental questions? little bit of both. it was actually very good to hear paul patterson, the boss of fujitsu, i admit that they have culpability in this for they have culpability in this for the first time and say they admit they have a moral obligation to contribute towards the compensation or redress we are going to have, but thatis or redress we are going to have, but that is entirely tempered by the fact that when they were asked more complex questions, neither of them seem to have any answers for the mps. ., , ., seem to have any answers for the mps. ., , , .,_ mps. indeed. so what you presumably want to know. — mps. indeed. so what you presumably want to know, apart _ mps. indeed. so what you presumably want to know, apart from _ mps. indeed. so what you presumably want to know, apart from when - mps. indeed. so what you presumably want to know, apart from when you i want to know, apart from when you are going to get compensated, and we don't have answers to that question right now, is what happened and when and what with the sequence of events that led to this miscarriage of

justice? that led to this miscarriage of 'ustice? , ., , .,, justice? yes. internally, the post office, i presume _ justice? yes. internally, the post office, i presume knew— justice? yes. internally, the post office, i presume knew when - justice? yes. internally, the post| office, i presume knew when they justice? yes. internally, the post - office, i presume knew when they had remote access, who decided it would not be pertinent to share that when people were being prosecuted. those questions really need answering. so what would you like to happen now? what are you hopeful might unfold in the next few months? are you confident that the legal process will be sped up and compensation is on its way? will be sped up and compensation is on itswa ? a .,, will be sped up and compensation is onitswa ? n ., ,., will be sped up and compensation is on its way?— on its way? actions on that front seak on its way? actions on that front speak much _ on its way? actions on that front speak much louder _ on its way? actions on that front speak much louder than - on its way? actions on that front speak much louder than words. | on its way? actions on that front i speak much louder than words. my conviction was quashed over two and a half years ago and i am still waiting for redress. if they can accelerate it for everybody in every group, that is exactly what we need, but that remains be seen. haste group, that is exactly what we need, but that remains be seen.— but that remains be seen. have you been surprised _ but that remains be seen. have you been surprised by _ but that remains be seen. have you been surprised by the _ but that remains be seen. have you been surprised by the sheer- but that remains be seen. have you| been surprised by the sheer number of people either directly involved or indirectly involved in this scandal? by which i mean families of

sub—postmasters. it scandal? by which i mean families of sub-postmasters.— sub-postmasters. it does not surrise sub-postmasters. it does not surprise me _ sub-postmasters. it does not surprise me that _ sub-postmasters. it does not surprise me that people's - sub-postmasters. it does not - surprise me that people's families were affected because my family was greatly affected by it as well, but the vast scale of the amount of people who have suffered losses is surprising. i would people who have suffered losses is surprising. iwould not people who have suffered losses is surprising. i would not be surprised if it turns out every office has suffered some sort of loss as this scandal unfolds. the suffered some sort of loss as this scandal unfolds.— suffered some sort of loss as this scandal unfolds. the point was made riaht scandal unfolds. the point was made ri . ht at the scandal unfolds. the point was made right at the beginning _ scandal unfolds. the point was made right at the beginning that _ scandal unfolds. the point was made right at the beginning that the - scandal unfolds. the point was made right at the beginning that the post l right at the beginning that the post office brand is actually dependent on the sub—postmasters and their relationship with the locale in which they work. you would presumably agree with that? entirely. the trustworthiness was built on the way that we as sub—postmasters interacted and dealt with and cared for our customers. that trust, though, between sub—postmasters and the post office itself must now be fundamentally undermined?— undermined? yes, totally. i feel very sorry _ undermined? yes, totally. i feel very sorry for — undermined? yes, totally. i feel very sorry for anyone _ undermined? yes, totally. i feel

very sorry for anyone still- undermined? yes, totally. i feel very sorry for anyone still trying | very sorry for anyone still trying to operate a serb post office, and we must remember they are not the problem, the post office are the problem. the people trying to earn a living and serve their local communities are not at fault. flan communities are not at fault. can ou take communities are not at fault. can you take us _ communities are not at fault. can you take us back— communities are not at fault. can you take us back to the sequence of events that led to your situation and the conviction being overturned as well? and what kind of pressure you were put under. h as well? and what kind of pressure you were put under.— as well? and what kind of pressure you were put under. i had bought my local shop and _ you were put under. i had bought my local shop and post _ you were put under. i had bought my local shop and post office _ you were put under. i had bought my local shop and post office in - you were put under. i had bought my local shop and post office in 2005 . local shop and post office in 2005 and ran it forfive local shop and post office in 2005 and ran it for five years, local shop and post office in 2005 and ran it forfive years, until i was audited and a £22,500 shortfall was audited and a £22,500 shortfall was discovered. i had to pay that back immediately to avoid a theft charge. i was then prosecuted by the post office for false accounting, which i wanted to plead not guilty to, but because of their lack of disclosure, my barrister advised me that i would be found guilty and receive a custodial sentence, whereas if i pled guilty to something i had not done, they could

very much keep me out of prison, which is the route i very much talk. it then took another ten, 11 years, after the campaign, which was part of winning that court case in 2000, i managed to get my conviction quashed —— 2019. stand i managed to get my conviction quashed -- 2019.— i managed to get my conviction quashed -- 2019. and all of that is morally exhausting? _ quashed -- 2019. and all of that is morally exhausting? absolutely i quashed -- 2019. and all of that is i morally exhausting? absolutely soul destro inc morally exhausting? absolutely soul destroying for _ morally exhausting? absolutely soul destroying for the _ morally exhausting? absolutely soul destroying for the last _ morally exhausting? absolutely soul destroying for the last ten _ morally exhausting? absolutely soul destroying for the last ten years. - destroying for the last ten years. the first part of that decade, trying to tell people locally that you were innocent, even though you have pled guilty, was a very hard fight. then being part of the mediation scheme, when they were finding truth is that the post office did not like, so they sack them, and the director, he said they exploded, the mediation scheme, and denied asjustice. this exploded, the mediation scheme, and denied as justice. this could exploded, the mediation scheme, and denied asjustice. this could have been sorted out back then, in 2015,

had the post office been open and honest, but we have had years and years of fighting and litigation to get to this point.— years of fighting and litigation to get to this point. they were asked about the culture _ get to this point. they were asked about the culture in _ get to this point. they were asked about the culture in the _ get to this point. they were asked about the culture in the post - get to this point. they were asked | about the culture in the post office and how he thought it was, such that this situation had been allowed to arise. how would you describe it? especially what the inquiry has uncovered, and there was a tape nick wallace released last week, of the current, although he is now suspended, director of communications, very much took the attitude that we had managed to jump on a bandwagon and the vast majority of us were actually potentially crooks. i am sure that the post office internally all as perhaps dirty little people, orfailed republicans i have heard is described as by them, and they saw us as a bunch of crooks and they were finally, with horizon, able to catch us. , ,, ., , .,

catch us. the process that led up to ou catch us. the process that led up to you handing — catch us. the process that led up to you handing back, _ catch us. the process that led up to you handing back, you _ catch us. the process that led up to you handing back, you were - catch us. the process that led up to you handing back, you were very i you handing back, you were very brief about that, that you handed over £22,000. what was the process between being accused and handing that many over? that between being accused and handing that many over?— between being accused and handing that many over? that process was a matter of dazed. _ that many over? that process was a matter of dazed. i _ that many over? that process was a matter of dazed. i was _ that many over? that process was a matter of dazed. i was advised - that many over? that process was a matter of dazed. i was advised that | matter of dazed. i was advised that if i did not pay that money back, i was going to be charged with the theft of it, and everything that goes with that, so you immediately goes with that, so you immediately go into panic mode, raiding my savings, borrowing money from my parents, sold the car i had at the time, to pay this money back, to try to stop myself being charged with theft, even though i knew i had not stolen anything, which is the same for every sub—postmaster, would be an absolutely ridiculous thing to do, because contractually we were held responsible for every loss, so you would only have been having your hand in your own pocket, but the fear of your theft charge and a prison sentence makes you react quickly and perhaps hastily to things you should have thought about. �* ,

things you should have thought about. . , ., ., ,, ., about. and is there a network of sub-postmasters? _ about. and is there a network of sub-postmasters? are - about. and is there a network of sub-postmasters? are you - about. and is there a network of sub-postmasters? are you in i about. and is there a network of - sub-postmasters? are you in contact sub—postmasters? are you in contact with each other? is there a community whereby ideas can be exchanged or this sort of information can be passed on? there is now. i information can be passed on? there is now- i assume _ information can be passed on? there is now. i assume there _ information can be passed on? there is now. i assume there is _ information can be passed on? there is now. i assume there is a _ information can be passed on? there is now. i assume there is a saving . is now. i assume there is a saving sub—postmasters now. as a group, we have whatsapp groups, but back when it happened to me, in 2009, early 2010, this was before really social media. the post office told nearly all of us, including myself, that we were the only one having problems, so you did not tend to advice from other people because they convince you it was an error on your part. and that did not really come up in the questioning, the fact the post office said this repeatedly. that you, whatever postmaster they were talking to, they were the only ones experiencing those problems. i am surprised that question was not asked. it surprised that question was not

asked. , ., , ., ,~' surprised that question was not asked. , ., , ., ., asked. it needs to be asked and the iniui has asked. it needs to be asked and the inquiry has started _ asked. it needs to be asked and the inquiry has started to _ asked. it needs to be asked and the inquiry has started to touch - asked. it needs to be asked and the inquiry has started to touch on - asked. it needs to be asked and the inquiry has started to touch on it. i inquiry has started to touch on it. in 2009, i did not realise that there was a problem with the it system. i realised there was a problem in the accounts, but i could not explain it. when i spoke to the investigators and said it is not an issue i think i have course, but i don't think i know where it has come from, their response was, you are the only one that has had this problem. you think, if i am the only person, it must be a mistake i have made. ., ~ person, it must be a mistake i have made. ., ,, , ., person, it must be a mistake i have made. . ~' , ., , person, it must be a mistake i have made. ., ,, i. , . made. tim, thank you very much indeed. tim telling us about his experience and what he has been making of the inquiry from the select committee. let's return to the house of commons, where at the post office minister, kevin hollinrake, is giving evidence.— minister, kevin hollinrake, is aaivin evidence. , ., �* . giving evidence. they don't receive

some compensation _ giving evidence. they don't receive | some compensation inappropriately from the taxpayer. brute some compensation inappropriately from the taxpayer.— from the taxpayer. we have been clear on this. _ from the taxpayer. we have been clear on this. i _ from the taxpayer. we have been clear on this. i think _ from the taxpayer. we have been clear on this. i think there - from the taxpayer. we have been clear on this. i think there is - from the taxpayer. we have been clear on this. i think there is a i clear on this. i think there is a significant _ clear on this. i think there is a significant chance that some people who are _ significant chance that some people who are actually guilty of something we'll get— who are actually guilty of something we'll get compensation, i think we should _ we'll get compensation, i think we should be — we'll get compensation, i think we should be honest about that. it is 'ust should be honest about that. it is just a _ should be honest about that. it is just a risk— should be honest about that. it is just a risk we need to take. the lesser— just a risk we need to take. the lesser of— just a risk we need to take. the lesser of two evils, as we said before — lesser of two evils, as we said before as _ lesser of two evils, as we said before. asjo hamilton said in her evidence, — before. asjo hamilton said in her evidence, it— before. asjo hamilton said in her evidence, it is the only way. it is imperative — evidence, it is the only way. it is imperative very happy to hear from this committee about different mitigations we can put in place. i think— mitigations we can put in place. i think we — mitigations we can put in place. i think we will have estate and the people _ think we will have estate and the people have to sign to say they aren't— people have to sign to say they aren't guilty of theft or other things— aren't guilty of theft or other things they might have been found guilty— things they might have been found guilty of. _ things they might have been found guilty of, but i think it is perfect _ guilty of, but i think it is perfect-— guilty of, but i think it is erfect. ., ., ., perfect. what would you say to those who have said _ perfect. what would you say to those who have said that _ perfect. what would you say to those who have said that overturning - perfect. what would you say to those who have said that overturning a - who have said that overturning a conviction without a full process devalues the acquittal of those who went through the courts.— devalues the acquittal of those who went through the courts. again, joe hamilton said _ went through the courts. again, joe hamilton said that _ went through the courts. again, joe hamilton said that she _ went through the courts. again, joe hamilton said that she didn't - went through the courts. again, joe hamilton said that she didn't think. hamilton said that she didn't think

her case _ hamilton said that she didn't think her case would be devalued. it was an incredible story, it was a pleasure _ an incredible story, it was a pleasure to meet her some weeks ago. i pleasure to meet her some weeks ago. i hope _ pleasure to meet her some weeks ago. i hope people don't feel that, i don't _ i hope people don't feel that, i don't think that is right. i think of anything the admiration for the people _ of anything the admiration for the people who have gone through this has skyrocketed, given the dramatisation. so i don't feel that is the _ dramatisation. so i don't feel that is the case — dramatisation. so i don't feel that is the case. i think people see this massive _ is the case. i think people see this massive widespread miscarriage of justice _ massive widespread miscarriage of justice it — massive widespread miscarriage of justice. it is notjust the scale of it, justice. it is notjust the scale of it. is— justice. it is notjust the scale of it. is the — justice. it is notjust the scale of it, is the depth of it. it is the scale — it, is the depth of it. it is the scale in _ it, is the depth of it. it is the scale in terms of the numbers of people. — scale in terms of the numbers of people, but is the depth in terms of the impact — people, but is the depth in terms of the impact on people's lives. you have the impact on people's lives. gm. have acknowledge you are moving as fast as you can, but would he make of the scottish first minister's and announcements that overturning convictions for post office counter victims in scotland will happen immediately? i victims in scotland will happen immediately?— victims in scotland will happen immediately? victims in scotland will happen immediatel ? _, . ., immediately? i welcome it. we are ve keen immediately? i welcome it. we are very keen to _ immediately? i welcome it. we are very keen to work— immediately? i welcome it. we are very keen to work with _ immediately? i welcome it. we are very keen to work with our - very keen to work with our counterparts in different jurisdictions. we are trying to do this on— jurisdictions. we are trying to do this on a — jurisdictions. we are trying to do this on a uk wide basis and be

consistent. this on a uk wide basis and be consistent-— consistent. and how can the government _ consistent. and how can the government show _ consistent. and how can the government show that - consistent. and how can the i government show that criminal records of those who were convicted are expunged as soon as possible. that is what we have got the draft of legislation to do. we had meetings on it yesterday, i spoke to the justice _ meetings on it yesterday, i spoke to the justice secretary but at last man _ the justice secretary but at last man it — the justice secretary but at last man it is — the justice secretary but at last man. it is not straightforward. people — man. it is not straightforward. people on _ man. it is not straightforward. people on this committee will look at the _ people on this committee will look at the view on how we will do that but we _ at the view on how we will do that but we are — at the view on how we will do that but we are keen to do that as quickly— but we are keen to do that as quickly as— but we are keen to do that as quickly as possible. can but we are keen to do that as quickly as possible.— but we are keen to do that as quickly as possible. can we get one thing clear. — quickly as possible. can we get one thing clear. it _ quickly as possible. can we get one thing clear, it is _ quickly as possible. can we get one thing clear, it is an _ quickly as possible. can we get one thing clear, it is an exceptional- thing clear, it is an exceptional step to deal with a wholly exceptional circumstance. will the government make it clear in how they way in which the registration is framed and presented that the sky of abuse as a precedent for undermining the basic principle of the independence of the judiciary when they are considering both criminal

and civil cases.— and civil cases. absolutely, you have that _ and civil cases. absolutely, you have that commitment - and civil cases. absolutely, you have that commitment from i and civil cases. absolutely, you. have that commitment from me. and civil cases. absolutely, you - have that commitment from me. the reasons— have that commitment from me. the reasons why— have that commitment from me. the reasons why we are doing this, the fact that _ reasons why we are doing this, the fact that this is suboptimal, the fact that this is suboptimal, the fact that — fact that this is suboptimal, the fact that this is suboptimal, the fact that this is suboptimal, the fact that this is the less worst option— fact that this is the less worst option that we are taking, any way we can— option that we are taking, any way we can define this. i am all ears and very— we can define this. i am all ears and very keen to work with you to do that _ and very keen to work with you to do that it— and very keen to work with you to do that. ., , ., ,., ., _ that. it would be fit also to say that. it would be fit also to say that the decision _ that. it would be fit also to say that the decision to _ that. it would be fit also to say that the decision to proceed i that. it would be fit also to sayj that the decision to proceed by that. it would be fit also to say - that the decision to proceed by this doesn't imply any criticism of the judicious three or on the way they have handled the matter on information available to them at the time? ., ., ., . ., ., time? not at all. we in at the real world, time? not at all. we in at the real world. that _ time? not at all. we in at the real world. that is _ time? not at all. we in at the real world, that is exactly _ time? not at all. we in at the real world, that is exactly what - time? not at all. we in at the real world, that is exactly what did - world, that is exactly what did happen — world, that is exactly what did happen. no criticism whatsoever. i think happen. no criticism whatsoever. think you happen. no criticism whatsoever. i think you have been in for most happen. no criticism whatsoever. i think you have been in for most of

the session, the minister. compensation is a massive issue that seems to be outstanding, perhaps ignored. the fact that sub postmasters are like a family business will. .. postmasters are like a family business will... we have had women widowed, we have had children losing their father or their mother as a result of this. we have had people separated, neverto result of this. we have had people separated, never to see each other again. what will the government do to ensure is that fair and rightful compensation is given to the victims? �* , compensation is given to the victims? . , ., , .,~ victims? and it is heartbreaking. in my constituency — victims? and it is heartbreaking. in my constituency i've _ victims? and it is heartbreaking. in my constituency i've got _ victims? and it is heartbreaking. in my constituency i've got some - my constituency i've got some harrison, — my constituency i've got some harrison, who was a postmaster who sadly— harrison, who was a postmaster who sadly passed alight last may, he was

part of— sadly passed alight last may, he was part of the _ sadly passed alight last may, he was part of the 555. i've spoken to one of her— part of the 555. i've spoken to one of her sons — part of the 555. i've spoken to one of her sons. heartbreaking situations. the conversation —— composition _ situations. the conversation —— composition will be paid to the family. — composition will be paid to the family. to _ composition will be paid to the family, to their estate, which then flows _ family, to their estate, which then flows through to the individuals that way — flows through to the individuals that way. we are talking to the advisory — that way. we are talking to the advisory board about this and it has been _ advisory board about this and it has been absolutely vital i think in getting — been absolutely vital i think in getting to the place we have got to today _ getting to the place we have got to today the — getting to the place we have got to today. the advisory board is a fantastic _ today. the advisory board is a fantasticjob, it covers all three schemes — fantasticjob, it covers all three schemes. they have such a bad impact on family— schemes. they have such a bad impact on family members, it is something that we _ on family members, it is something that we are — on family members, it is something that we are talking to them about. i will be _ that we are talking to them about. i will be honest, that is a nervousness around that, in that directly— nervousness around that, in that directly compensating family members. you can say this with any compensation scheme we run, you can

set about— compensation scheme we run, you can set about contaminated blood, you can say— set about contaminated blood, you can say about some of the banking scandals. — can say about some of the banking scandals, all those things. all those — scandals, all those things. all those films are affected of course. but it _ those films are affected of course. but it would hugely increase the scope _ but it would hugely increase the scope and complexity of compensation schemes, _ scope and complexity of compensation schemes, and of course the cost of the compensation schemes. it would not be _ the compensation schemes. it would not be an— the compensation schemes. it would not be an easy thing to do to open up not be an easy thing to do to open up to— not be an easy thing to do to open up to family members. but i understand the point you are making. minister. _ understand the point you are making. minister, thank you for sitting through and being here. can i ask of the question i indyref with lord arbuthnot. why are we still using horizon? �* ., arbuthnot. why are we still using horizon? . . ., , ., arbuthnot. why are we still using horizon? ~ . . , ., horizon? again, that is the at least worst option _ horizon? again, that is the at least worst option as _ horizon? again, that is the at least worst option as well. _ horizon? again, that is the at least worst option as well. this - horizon? again, that is the at least worst option as well. this is - horizon? again, that is the at least worst option as well. this is one i horizon? again, that is the at least worst option as well. this is one of| worst option as well. this is one of the biggest — worst option as well. this is one of the biggest it networks i think in europe. — the biggest it networks i think in europe. if— the biggest it networks i think in europe, if not the world. it is a significant _ europe, if not the world. it is a significant thing to replace. it is

being _ significant thing to replace. it is being replaced. ithink significant thing to replace. it is being replaced. i think they cost so far of— being replaced. i think they cost so far of replacing it is around £270 million — far of replacing it is around £270 million it— far of replacing it is around £270 million. it is being rebuilt and we want _ million. it is being rebuilt and we want to— million. it is being rebuilt and we want to get people off horizon as soon _ want to get people off horizon as soon as— want to get people off horizon as soon as possible. but the system they are — soon as possible. but the system they are using now, as far as we are aware, _ they are using now, as far as we are aware. is _ they are using now, as far as we are aware. isfar— they are using now, as far as we are aware, is far more reliable than previous— aware, is far more reliable than previous versions. some of the difficulties have been resolved, i think _ difficulties have been resolved, i think all— difficulties have been resolved, i think. all of the difficulties have been _ think. all of the difficulties have been resolved in terms of problems in the _ been resolved in terms of problems in the past — been resolved in terms of problems in the past. it is something the post _ in the past. it is something the post office wants to move away from, and that's _ post office wants to move away from, and that's something we are helping the post _ and that's something we are helping the post office funding for to help push this — the post office funding for to help push this. | the post office funding for to help ush this. ~ the post office funding for to help ush this. ,, ., , the post office funding for to help ush this. ~ ., , ,., push this. i think it was said it was the biggest _ push this. i think it was said it was the biggest and _ push this. i think it was said it was the biggest and best - push this. i think it was said it i was the biggest and best system push this. i think it was said it - was the biggest and best system in europe, it would make it easierfor those who are in the post office. look at where we are now. you have not got the people who messed up the system is still running the operating system that those in the post office are using. i guess it

all comes back to truss, to confidence in the system. you can't be that confident the people working in the post office are confident and trusty system that they are using. indeed, in the run—up to this inquiry a indeed, in the run—up to this inquirya number of indeed, in the run—up to this inquiry a number of us spoke to sub—postmasters across the country. i don't think i spoke to a single one, both past and present, who had any confidence in that system. we have been here before, we have heard about ibm, we have heard about amazon. these are all fun through the cracks and these new systems are not being implemented to try and run them. what are we not expediting that? 25 year should be enough time to change the system altogether. the s stem is to change the system altogether. the system is being rebuilt, we are moving — system is being rebuilt, we are moving off it. as you know, it projects— moving off it. as you know, it projects are notoriously slower than expected _ projects are notoriously slower than expected and more costly than expected. this is no different. but you cannot — expected. this is no different. but you cannotjust rip a system and

overnight. — you cannotjust rip a system and overnight, you have to rebuild and make _ overnight, you have to rebuild and make sure — overnight, you have to rebuild and make sure it is fit for purpose. i think— make sure it is fit for purpose. i think we — make sure it is fit for purpose. i think we are _ make sure it is fit for purpose. i think we are a lot further on terms of it— think we are a lot further on terms of it capability in terms of deploying these kinds of technologies that we were 25 years a-o. technologies that we were 25 years ago~ so— technologies that we were 25 years ago. so there is every reason to expect— ago. so there is every reason to expect it — ago. so there is every reason to expect it is _ ago. so there is every reason to expect it is a much more robust system — expect it is a much more robust system and it is being piloted currently _ system and it is being piloted currently in a number of branches. but these — currently in a number of branches. but these things do take time. what safe . uards but these things do take time. what safeguards do _ but these things do take time. what safeguards do you _ but these things do take time. r“tausgt safeguards do you think but these things do take time. “ta"usgt safeguards do you think you ought to provide for someone who doesn't have confidence in the system they are currently using because of the historical reasons? do you say rather than going through the horizon helpline, your department should have a dedicated helpline for people to contact you if they are not confident with the response they're getting from the organisation running on their... that is not what we have got the expertise — that is not what we have got the expertise to do. you have got to have _ expertise to do. you have got to have confidence in the manager to do that, that _ have confidence in the manager to do that, that is _ have confidence in the manager to do

that, that is the responsibility. they— that, that is the responsibility. they have _ that, that is the responsibility. they have also got responsibility to put in _ they have also got responsibility to put in the _ they have also got responsibility to put in the checks and balances needed — put in the checks and balances needed to make sure the system is for purpose. can needed to make sure the system is for purpose-— for purpose. can i draw you back to the comments _ for purpose. can i draw you back to the comments about _ for purpose. can i draw you back to the comments about the _ for purpose. can i draw you back to | the comments about the chronology for purpose. can i draw you back to - the comments about the chronology of payments. it is quite important to make sure we're getting it right in terms of those who had been waiting the longest, making sure the systems are being addressed. given what you have heard of this morning, how do you think you can go back and speed up you think you can go back and speed up the process? deal with the bureaucracy. what can you do from your position to speed up the timeline? , �* your position to speed up the timeline?— your position to speed up the timeline? , �* ., ., ., , timeline? the dbt looks after the gl allows scheme _ timeline? the dbt looks after the gl allows scheme and _ timeline? the dbt looks after the gl allows scheme and we _ timeline? the dbt looks after the gl allows scheme and we have - timeline? the dbt looks after the gl allows scheme and we have made i allows scheme and we have made commitments in terms of responses to claims _ commitments in terms of responses to claims that— commitments in terms of responses to claims that have been submitted. we are very— claims that have been submitted. we are very keen to do that. the 40 working — are very keen to do that. the 40 working days will. we are determined to slim _ working days will. we are determined to slim down the bureaucracy. we are working _ to slim down the bureaucracy. we are working with — to slim down the bureaucracy. we are working with the advisory board, they had —

working with the advisory board, they had recommendations on how we can _ can... studio: we are hearing now the trade and business select committee questioning those keyed to the post office scandal. we have been hearing from the ceo since 2019 of the post office. we have also been hearing from company mike and the director of europe, paul patterson. this inquiry is running parallel to this. we have not been hearing answers to the questions concerning whether the post office knew there were faults of the system, and if so when, and whether company mike knew there were faults with the system and if so when the. there seems to be fundamental questions that remain unfortunately unanswered.

former subpostmisteressjo hamilton was among those who came to westminster today — to hear an apology from fujitsu, the company behind the faulty horizon computer system. we did have bugs and errors in the system, and we did help the post office in their prosecutions of the sub—postmasters. for that, we are truly sorry. also this lunchtime, this is the scene live in the commons, where the government's controversial

rwanda bill is about to be back before mps, with some tories threatening to challenge it. donald trump triumphs in iowa — is it his first step on the road back to the white house? an arctic blast brings snow and ice to the uk with scores of schools closed in scotland and the north west of england. and a better day for the brits down under — emma raducanu bounces back from injury at the australian open. and coming up on bbc news, sarina wiegman signs a new contract with england women until 2027, after being named women's coach of the year at the fifa best awards. good afternoon. victims of the post office scandal have been giving evidence to mps today.

hundreds of sub—postmasters were wrongly proscuted for theft