outset of horizon, you say, from the outset of horizon, fujitsu _ you say, from the outset of horizon, fujitsu has_ you say, from the outset of horizon, fujitsu has been acquired by contract _ fujitsu has been acquired by contract to maintain an audit trail of all_ contract to maintain an audit trail of all transactions and events. see for example paragraph 3.1 of schedule a03 to the codified agreement of the 20th ofjuly 1999, agreement of the 20th ofjuly1999, and paragraph 3.1 of schedule d five to version_ and paragraph 3.1 of schedule d five to version 13 of the codified agreement of 23rd of november 2020. i'm not_ agreement of 23rd of november 2020. i'm not going to ask you any questions _ i'm not going to ask you any questions about the agreement of 2020 _ questions about the agreement of 2020 biggest prosecutions had stopped by then. this contractual obligation flowed from requirement 699 contained at paragraph 1.102 of schedule _ 699 contained at paragraph 1.102 of schedule a15, to the 1999 codified agreement. in particular, requirement 69—9 notes at: 1.1026

the content _ requirement 69—9 notes at: 1.1026 the content of the audit trail should — the content of the audit trail should be agreed with post office counters — should be agreed with post office counters limited by a date consistent with the project plan. and 1.102.9, the consistent with the project plan. and 1.1029, the audit trail shall have _ and 1.1029, the audit trail shall have a _ and 1.1029, the audit trail shall have a level of security such that it cannot — have a level of security such that it cannot be altered or deleted. no need _ it cannot be altered or deleted. no need to— it cannot be altered or deleted. no need to read and 2.11. and so you focus _ need to read and 2.11. and so you focus on — need to read and 2.11. and so you focus on these two paragraphs in the obligations _ focus on these two paragraphs in the obligations of fujitsu arising from requirement 699 of the codified agreement. requirement 699 of the codified agreement-— requirement 699 of the codified agreement.- and - requirement 699 of the codified agreement.- and they i requirement 699 of the codified i agreement.- and they are requirement 699 of the codified - agreement.- and they are all agreement. correct. and they are all about the duty _ agreement. correct. and they are all about the duty to _ agreement. correct. and they are all about the duty to maintain _ agreement. correct. and they are all about the duty to maintain and - about the duty to maintain and provide — about the duty to maintain and provide what is cold an audit trial. correct _ provide what is cold an audit trial. correct. ~ , ., ., . ,., provide what is cold an audit trial. correct. ~ , ., ., . . correct. where you told about and did ou correct. where you told about and did you take _ correct. where you told about and did you take into _ correct. where you told about and did you take into account - correct. where you told about and did you take into account in - correct. where you told about and did you take into account in what i did you take into account in what you said — did you take into account in what you said in — did you take into account in what you said in this witness statement a separate _ you said in this witness statement a separate requirement in the codified agreement concerning what was

described as prosecution support? that is— described as prosecution support? that is requirement 829. | described as prosecution support? that is requirement 829.— described as prosecution support? that is requirement 829. i think we would have — that is requirement 829. i think we would have done _ that is requirement 829. i think we would have done in _ that is requirement 829. i think we would have done in our— that is requirement 829. i think we would have done in our response i would have done in our response document in our evidence here in number three. yes, we would have done. ., , , . , done. you see, these paragraphs, there is a series _ done. you see, these paragraphs, there is a series of _ done. you see, these paragraphs, there is a series of requirements i done. you see, these paragraphs, | there is a series of requirements in there is a series of requirements in the contract — there is a series of requirements in the contract and you are focusing all on _ the contract and you are focusing all on 699 — the contract and you are focusing all on 699 which is about audits, either— all on 699 which is about audits, either operational audit or commercial audit by auditors. there is a separate series of requirements concerning — is a separate series of requirements concerning the provision of evidence for the _ concerning the provision of evidence for the purposes of prosecution which _ for the purposes of prosecution which spring up from requirement 829, _ which spring up from requirement 829, which — which spring up from requirement 829, which you don't analyse here at all. 829, which you don't analyse here at att~ did _ 829, which you don't analyse here at att~ did you _ 829, which you don't analyse here at all. did you know about that separate _ all. did you know about that separate requirement, the 829

requirement? | separate requirement, the 829 requirement?— separate requirement, the 829 reuuirement? . . ., �* requirement? i am aware... i didn't know the number, _ requirement? i am aware... i didn't know the number, but _ requirement? i am aware... i didn't know the number, but i _ requirement? i am aware... i didn't know the number, but i am - requirement? i am aware... i didn't know the number, but i am aware l requirement? i am aware... i didn't. know the number, but i am aware and that company was aware that there was that obligation in the contract. right. in any event, let's talk about— right. in any event, let's talk about the _ right. in any event, let's talk about the audit requirement, which may about the audit requirement, which nray be _ about the audit requirement, which nray be a _ about the audit requirement, which may be a very different thing to prosecution support. in that paragraph at the bottom of the page we have _ paragraph at the bottom of the page we have got there, your mind is that the codified — we have got there, your mind is that the codified agreement said the audit— the codified agreement said the audit trail shall have a level of security, — audit trail shall have a level of security, such that it cannot be altered — security, such that it cannot be altered or— security, such that it cannot be altered or deleted. is it now recognised and accepted by fujitsu that fujitsu could and did make insertions — that fujitsu could and did make insertions and amendments into data which _ insertions and amendments into data which had _ insertions and amendments into data which had an impact on branch accounts? _ which had an impact on branch accounts?— which had an impact on branch accounts? ._ , accounts? the way i believe the s stem accounts? the way i believe the system worked _ accounts? the way i believe the system worked for _ accounts? the way i believe the system worked for discovering l accounts? the way i believe the i system worked for discovering for the audit trial was to take the raw

data and take a copy of that to then provide the data, so i think in the data you could filter out or add data you could filter out or add data to that, so yes. do you accept this meant that fujitsu — do you accept this meant that fujitsu could and did alter the audit— fujitsu could and did alter the audit trial data? | fujitsu could and did alter the audit trial data?— fujitsu could and did alter the audit trial data? i think it does sa to audit trial data? i think it does say to me _ audit trial data? i think it does say to me that, _ audit trial data? i think it does say to me that, yes. _ audit trial data? i think it does say to me that, yes. do - audit trial data? i think it does say to me that, yes. do the i audit trial data? i think it does - say to me that, yes. do the opposite to what the — say to me that, yes. do the opposite to what the requirement _ say to me that, yes. do the opposite to what the requirement in _ to what the requirement in 102.9 says? _ to what the requirement in 102.9 says? i_ to what the requirement in 102.9 sa s? ~' . . , ., to what the requirement in 102.9 sa s? ~' .. ._ says? i think the changes or any adjustments _ says? i think the changes or any adjustments were _ says? i think the changes or any adjustments were agreed - says? i think the changes or any adjustments were agreed with i says? i think the changes or any i adjustments were agreed with the post office before any action would or would not be, except for bugs and defects, i don't think there was a secret intervention. i think this error was discussed, this error causes this and make change. butt

causes this and make change. but i think ou causes this and make change. but i think you would _ causes this and make change. but i think you would accept _ causes this and make change. but i think you would accept that audit data should have been an exact reftection — data should have been an exact reflection of the transactions taking — reflection of the transactions taking place at the branch, no more and no _ taking place at the branch, no more and no less? — taking place at the branch, no more and no less? i taking place at the branch, no more and no less?— and no less? i do agree with that, and no less? i do agree with that, and i think— and no less? i do agree with that, and i think the _ and no less? i do agree with that, and i think the underlying - and no less? i do agree with that, and i think the underlying data - and no less? i do agree with that, l and i think the underlying data and the message stored was exactly that. that wasn't what was given in the audit— that wasn't what was given in the audit data — that wasn't what was given in the audit data. ., that wasn't what was given in the audit data. no. can we turn to page eiuht, audit data.- can we turn to page eight, please? _ audit data. tic. can we turn to page eight, please? where you set out for as a flow— eight, please? where you set out for as a flow chart at the top of the page. _ as a flow chart at the top of the page, thank you, taken from a prosecution support process document of the _ prosecution support process document of the 29th— prosecution support process document of the 29th of february 2005, so a fujitsu _ of the 29th of february 2005, so a fujitsu policy document. and ijust want _ fujitsu policy document. and ijust want to— fujitsu policy document. and ijust want to look at the policy document.

this is— want to look at the policy document. this is one _ want to look at the policy document. this is one of the rare occasions where _ this is one of the rare occasions where i— this is one of the rare occasions where i am _ this is one of the rare occasions where i am going to delve into the underlying — where i am going to delve into the underlying material that is an annexe — underlying material that is an annexe to your witness statement. it isjust— annexe to your witness statement. it isjust so— annexe to your witness statement. it isjust so we _ annexe to your witness statement. it isjust so we can understand some foundational terms, isjust so we can understand some foundationalterms, get isjust so we can understand some foundational terms, get those locked down for— foundational terms, get those locked down for a _ foundational terms, get those locked down for a later discussion. the underlying _ down for a later discussion. the underlying document from which this diagram _ underlying document from which this diagram was taken is if huge i won 105 to— diagram was taken is if huge i won 105 to do— diagram was taken is if huge i won 105 to do 09. this this is one of the exhibits to your— this this is one of the exhibits to your witness statement, the 11th exhibited — your witness statement, the 11th exhibited to your witness statement. and you _ exhibited to your witness statement. and you can— exhibited to your witness statement. and you can see the date of it, as i have _ and you can see the date of it, as i have just _ and you can see the date of it, as i have just said it was 2005. we can see that _ have just said it was 2005. we can see that it— have just said it was 2005. we can see that it is— have just said it was 2005. we can see that it is version two from the top and _ see that it is version two from the top and if— see that it is version two from the top and if we just go over the page, please _ top and if we just go over the page, please we — top and if we just go over the page, please. we can see from that table at the _

please. we can see from that table at the top — please. we can see from that table at the top there, i think the fourth entry— at the top there, i think the fourth entry on— at the top there, i think the fourth entry on that table, that version one of— entry on that table, that version one of this — entry on that table, that version one of this document was dated the 26 of— one of this document was dated the 26 of november 2002. us. lets for 26 of november 2002. ds. lets for work 26 of november 2002. lets for work from 26 of november 2002. d; lets for work from this version, 26 of november 2002. li; lets for work from this version, the one that was operative from the 29th of february— was operative from the 29th of february 2005, and i am afraid we are going — february 2005, and i am afraid we are going to— february 2005, and i am afraid we are going to have to go to a bit of itjust _ are going to have to go to a bit of itjust to— are going to have to go to a bit of itjust to understand are going to have to go to a bit of it just to understand some terminology and the process that was intended _ terminology and the process that was intended to start with. can we start, — intended to start with. can we start, please, with page eight? scope of document. if we canjust look scope of document. if we canjust took at _ scope of document. if we canjust took at the — scope of document. if we canjust look at the top half of the page. this document sets out the procedures to be adopted by post

office _ procedures to be adopted by post office accounts, prosecution support service _ office accounts, prosecution support service for— office accounts, prosecution support service for managing and dealing with audit — service for managing and dealing with audit record queries for investigation and support purposes including _ investigation and support purposes including the undertaking of audit record _ including the undertaking of audit record queries, presentation of transaction records extracted by audit— transaction records extracted by audit record queries, analysis of appropriate records. preparation of witness _ appropriate records. preparation of witness statements and facts in relation — witness statements and facts in relation to audit record queries. attendance at court by relevant employees to give evidence in respect — employees to give evidence in respect of witness statements, and undertaking of additional litigation position— undertaking of additional litigation position support activities as may be requested on a case—by—case basis on the _ be requested on a case—by—case basis on the interruption of legal counset~ _ on the interruption of legal counsel. i am going to skip the next and then— counsel. i am going to skip the next and then onto support of potential prosecution will be obtained solely from the _ prosecution will be obtained solely from the horizon system audit archive — from the horizon system audit archive - — from the horizon system audit archive — server. the method by which _ archive — server. the method by which this— archive — server. the method by which this data is protected as

described in the audit trail functional specification. evidence in support— functional specification. evidence in support of data integrity will be sourced _ in support of data integrity will be sourced from the audit archive — observer— sourced from the audit archive — observer and through business logs. all access _ observer and through business logs. all access to audit data is restricted to named individuals by dedicated workstations located in a secure _ dedicated workstations located in a secure environment. this is consistent with the security controls _ consistent with the security controls employed in the existing service _ controls employed in the existing service. supporting evidence was sourced — service. supporting evidence was sourced from relevant business records — sourced from relevant business records and logs. two types of requests. _ records and logs. two types of requests, audit record query only involving — requests, audit record query only involving the extraction of audit archive — involving the extraction of audit archive of— involving the extraction of audit archive of records are an outlet. arq _ archive of records are an outlet. aro plus — archive of records are an outlet. aro plus a _ archive of records are an outlet. arq plus a witness statement invotves — arq plus a witness statement involves an extraction of the audit record _ involves an extraction of the audit record of— involves an extraction of the audit record of archives plus the provision _ record of archives plus the provision of a particular witness statement. yes?— provision of a particular witness statement. yes? yes. and then if we no statement. yes? yes. and then if we to over to statement. yes? yes. and then if we go over to page _ statement. yes? yes and then if we go over to page nine, please. there

is something about the history in the ultimate paragraph on this page, the ultimate paragraph on this page, the provision of prosecution support, _ the provision of prosecution support, specifically the provision of witness — support, specifically the provision of witness statements of fact was not formalised and was provided on a without— not formalised and was provided on a without prejudice subject to contact basis, _ without prejudice subject to contact basis, pending the receipt of a change — basis, pending the receipt of a change request. position support for the existing system is now provided as part _ the existing system is now provided as part of— the existing system is now provided as part of the position support system — as part of the position support system. this document outlines the operational approach to the service, so that— operational approach to the service, so that is— operational approach to the service, so that is a — operational approach to the service, so that is a reflection that before this document there wasn't a formalised statement or policy on the provision of prosecution support~ _ the provision of prosecution su ort. . . the provision of prosecution su--ort. . . , the provision of prosecution suuort. . , , , . support. that is my understanding. and then if — support. that is my understanding. and then if we _ support. that is my understanding. and then if we can _ support. that is my understanding. and then if we can go _ support. that is my understanding. and then if we can go forward, - and then if we can go forward, please, — and then if we can go forward, please, to— and then if we can go forward, please, to page ten. if we read paragraph _ please, to page ten. if we read paragraph 3.2 at the bottom. there

is provision — paragraph 3.2 at the bottom. there is provision here about the limits are the _ is provision here about the limits are the limitations on arqs, the number— are the limitations on arqs, the number of— are the limitations on arqs, the number of arqs requested by post office _ number of arqs requested by post office in— number of arqs requested by post office in a — number of arqs requested by post office in a request for the prosecution shall be met with 720 or 15,000 _ prosecution shall be met with 720 or 15,000 query days on a rolling basis with no— 15,000 query days on a rolling basis with no more than the first to be met in— with no more than the first to be met in any— with no more than the first to be met in any candour month of 60 queries — met in any candour month of 60 queries or— met in any candour month of 60 queries or 1150 query days. any arqs over and _ queries or 1150 query days. any arqs over and above the 720 maximum will be rolled _ over and above the 720 maximum will be rolled over to the next 12 month period _ be rolled over to the next 12 month period and — be rolled over to the next 12 month period and count towards the total for the _ period and count towards the total for the next year. the post office may vary— for the next year. the post office may vary the aggregate limit of arqs between _ may vary the aggregate limit of arqs between the limits set out above and following _ between the limits set out above and following substitutes for those

limits — following substitutes for those limits and there are some different figures _ limits and there are some different figures required or provided for, and then— figures required or provided for, and then if— figures required or provided for, and then if we go to the foot of this page... thank you. each audit record _ this page... thank you. each audit record query— this page... thank you. each audit record query shall relate only to an individual— record query shall relate only to an individual outlet. arqs are limited to specific— individual outlet. arqs are limited to specific types of information data fields and these are, and then they are _ data fields and these are, and then they are listed. and then page 14, please _ they are listed. and then page 14, please 14, — they are listed. and then page 14, please. 14, please? underthe heading — please. 14, please? underthe heading prosecution support, in addition — heading prosecution support, in addition to the details three and four above, which we have just looked — four above, which we have just looked at. _ four above, which we have just

looked at, post office shall whenever possible advise on the relevant — whenever possible advise on the relevant section of the arq form whether— relevant section of the arq form whether a — relevant section of the arq form whether a required element witness dici

for the attendance at court by the person _ for the attendance at court by the person who has provided a witness statement — person who has provided a witness statement as identified above to -ive statement as identified above to give evidence in support of that witness — give evidence in support of that witness statement the maximum of 100 days per— witness statement the maximum of 100 days per year. and then at page 19, please _ we see at the top of the page there at paragraph 7.0, the diagram which you have _ at paragraph 7.0, the diagram which you have cut— into your witness statement. yes. which we will _ into your witness statement. yes. which we will come _ into your witness statement. yes. which we will come back- into your witness statement. yes. which we will come back to - into your witness statement. yes which we will come back to in a moment — which we will come back to in a moment. and then at the foot of the pa-e moment. and then at the foot of the page h _ moment. and then at the foot of the page h and — moment. and then at the foot of the page 7.1 and 7:1.1, there is a list ofthe— page 7.1 and 7:1.1, there is a list ofthe nine— page 7.1 and 7:1.1, there is a list of the nine steps to be taken when a arq of the nine steps to be taken when a

aro is— of the nine steps to be taken when a arq is received, so 7:1.1 committee member— arq is received, so 7:1.1 committee member shall identify the search criteria — member shall identify the search criteria. and if we just go to the page. _ criteria. and if we just go to the page. they— criteria. and if we just go to the page, they shall create an audit trail of— page, they shall create an audit trail of the request. and then, three. — trail of the request. and then, three, search the files required to complete — three, search the files required to complete the report, search and retrieve — complete the report, search and retrieve the files, five, generate the message stored, six, use a tool to select _ the message stored, six, use a tool to select the — the message stored, six, use a tool to select the files per the search criteria — to select the files per the search criteria. over the page, to select the files per the search criteria. overthe page, please. seven. — criteria. overthe page, please. seven, burn the data onto a closed cd along _ seven, burn the data onto a closed cd along with a mag word document with an _ cd along with a mag word document with an excellent nation. eight, carry— with an excellent nation. eight, carry out— with an excellent nation. eight, carry out a _ with an excellent nation. eight, carry out a virus check. nine, dispatch— carry out a virus check. nine, dispatch it~ _ carry out a virus check. nine, dispatch it. so there are nine steps in the _ dispatch it. so there are nine steps in the process. and then page 21, please _ in the process. and then page 21, please you —

in the process. and then page 21, please. you will remember that there were four— please. you will remember that there were four other things under prosecution support that fujitsu could _ prosecution support that fujitsu could do — prosecution support that fujitsu could do and this lists them out. if we look at 7:21. so the first of them, 2.1. _ look at 7:21. so the first of them, 2t. is— look at 7:21. so the first of them, 2t. is check— look at 7:21. so the first of them, 2.1, is check arising system help desk— 2.1, is check arising system help desk logs — 2.1, is check arising system help desk logs. problems or faults at the post office _ desk logs. problems or faults at the post office outlet logged will be examined using the search criteria. so this— examined using the search criteria. so this is— examined using the search criteria. so this is if— examined using the search criteria. so this is if the sub postmaster has called _ so this is if the sub postmaster has called an— so this is if the sub postmaster has called an issue in, you don't to be discovered — called an issue in, you don't to be discovered by searching the help desk logs. —— the horizon system logs _ desk logs. —— the horizon system logs next — desk logs. —— the horizon system logs. next page. the second thing, as well— logs. next page. the second thing, as well as _ logs. next page. the second thing, as well as the production of arq

data, _ as well as the production of arq data. that — as well as the production of arq data, that was to be done was an analysis— data, that was to be done was an analysis of— data, that was to be done was an analysis of non—polling reports. non—polling report shall be reviewed for the _ non—polling report shall be reviewed for the outlet in question. do you know— for the outlet in question. do you know what— for the outlet in question. do you know what non—polling is? | for the outlet in question. do you know what non—polling is? i am for the outlet in question. do you know what non-polling is? i am sure mina it is know what non-polling is? i am sure ming it is about _ know what non-polling is? i am sure ming it is about the _ know what non-polling is? i am sure ming it is about the network - know what non-polling is? i am sure ming it is about the network and - ming it is about the network and connecting to the main database. broadly, yes. so conduct an analysis of non—polling reports. the third thing _ of non—polling reports. the third thing is — of non—polling reports. the third thing is analyse the fault logs, so any relevant pinnacles and help logs _ logs, so any relevant pinnacles and help logs will be reviewed through the peak— help logs will be reviewed through the peak system to identify any recorded — the peak system to identify any recorded faults that might affect the integrity or admissibility of the integrity or admissibility of the audit— the integrity or admissibility of the audit archive from which the arq gueries _ the audit archive from which the arq queries are _ the audit archive from which the arq queries are extracted. peak log will detail— queries are extracted. peak log will detail the _ queries are extracted. peak log will detail the error relating to the site equipment and service in question _ site equipment and service in question. and then the fourth and on, statement of fact. prosecution support— on, statement of fact. prosecution support will provide a witness statement of fact as far as possible

to be _ statement of fact as far as possible to be undertaken by the person responsible for the action of the work. _ responsible for the action of the work. so — responsible for the action of the work. so as— responsible for the action of the work, so as to retain continuity of evidence — work, so as to retain continuity of evidence. and then 7:4.1, about witness — evidence. and then 7:4.1, about witness statements of fact. otherwise pertinent information shall— otherwise pertinent information shall be — otherwise pertinent information shall be recorded in the witness statement of fact. requirements for witness _ statement of fact. requirements for witness statements completed by the individual _ witness statements completed by the individual from prosecution who completed the request. a statement shall follow the standard format and layout _ shall follow the standard format and layout for— shall follow the standard format and layout for the statement of facts provided — layout for the statement of facts provided in evidence. content of witness — provided in evidence. content of witness statements of facts are flexible — witness statements of facts are flexible depending on pacific requirements. and the knowledge of the witness giving the statement and example _ the witness giving the statement and example of a witness statement of

fact is _ example of a witness statement of fact is provided in appendix two. let's _ fact is provided in appendix two. let'sjust— fact is provided in appendix two. let'sjust go and fact is provided in appendix two. let's just go and look at that, please — let's just go and look at that, please. that is page 29, i think of this document. so there is a template _ this document. so there is a template or boilerplate witness statement if we just look at paragraph one and two. and just rebuild _ paragraph one and two. and just rebuild yourself. and then just over the page _ and it says the system in d and e

and if— and it says the system in d and e and if we — and it says the system in d and e and if we go forward to page 32, please — and if we go forward to page 32, please at — and if we go forward to page 32, please. at the foot of page 32. and during _ please. at the foot of page 32. and during the — please. at the foot of page 32. and during the audit following controls applied _ during the audit following controls applied. and then they are listed out between one and ten. and then there _ out between one and ten. and then there are _ out between one and ten. and then there are some deletions and then this aro, — there are some deletions and then this arq, whatever, was received and asked _ this arq, whatever, was received and asked for— this arq, whatever, was received and asked for information in connection with post _ asked for information in connection with post office, whatever the code of the _ with post office, whatever the code of the post— with post office, whatever the code of the post office was. i produce a copy— of the post office was. i produce a copy of— of the post office was. i produce a copy of the — of the post office was. i produce a copy of the arq as exhibit number on various— copy of the arq as exhibit number on various dates and at various times between _ various dates and at various times between the two dates. i undertook extractions— between the two dates. i undertook extractions of data held on the second — extractions of data held on the second mix system in accordance with the requirements of something and

follow— the requirements of something and follow the procedure outlined above. i follow the procedure outlined above. t produce _ follow the procedure outlined above. i produce the result on cd as x as an exhibit — i produce the result on cd as x as an exhibit number. that is all we need _ an exhibit number. that is all we need to— an exhibit number. that is all we need to look at that. if we go back, then, _ need to look at that. if we go back, then, please to page 22 of the statement. we were looking at statements of fa ct we fact we have reached the statement of fact _ fact we have reached the statement of fact based on the knowledge of the witness. one, and information about— the witness. one, and information about the — the witness. one, and information about the author, summary of previous— about the author, summary of previous manual by the post office

before _ previous manual by the post office before horizon. information is recorded, _ before horizon. information is recorded, how consistent time is recorded — recorded, how consistent time is recorded by horizon. the pipes of support— recorded by horizon. the pipes of support that have generated. the post office main accounts department. a brief overview of applications, how data is passed from _ applications, how data is passed from the — applications, how data is passed from the counter to the archive. process — from the counter to the archive. process for— from the counter to the archive. process for extracting information for was — process for extracting information for arqs and the controls in place to protect — for arqs and the controls in place to protect and ensure the integrity... to protect and ensure the integrity- - -_ to protect and ensure the integrity... to protect and ensure the inteuri ...~ ., ., ., ., integrity... we are going to leave the ost integrity... we are going to leave the post office — integrity... we are going to leave the post office inquiry _ integrity... we are going to leave the post office inquiry at - integrity... we are going to leave the post office inquiry at that - the post office inquiry at that particular point. we are hearing from paul patterson, the head of fujitsu in europe. let's turn now to another big story here in the uk. tata steel is set to announce formally the clos here in the uk. of both its blast furnaces in port talbot in south wales later today, putting 3,000 jobs across the uk at risk. the site will still make steel, but will instead use a greener

electric arc furnace, which requires fewer staff to operate. the firstjob losses are likely to begin in april, let'sjoin let's join viewers let'sjoin viewers in let's join viewers in the uk. let'sjoin viewers in the uk. we let's join viewers in the uk. we are going to stay with her breaking news, which is that tata steel has just announced that 2800 employees are expected to be affected. we understand that this is to do with both of the blast furnaces in the uk's port talbot site are expected to be replaced with an electric version, so the news has been around for a day or so but it does seem that this announcement is coming now. they have been doing that to move towards more environmentally friendly steel production, but it does come with apple on job losses

and we are now receiving that statement, 2800 employees are expected to be affected, out of which around 2500 roles would be affected in the next 18 months. so confirmation there from tata steel about those job losses. we bring in our business presenter now. we have been following the story, charlotte. some detail coming in on the numbers. so it is 2800, a little less than what we were expecting. we were expecting 3000, not a huge amount far off that. we haven't got the details on which furnaces are going to be closed down. we were expecting those two furnaces at port talbot to be scrapped and replaced with what they are calling green friendly, green electric arc furnaces which are supposedly going to emit less carbon

emissions. that statement which i have got in front of me now says that the plan is to reverse more than a decade of losses and transition from the legacy blast furnaces towards a stable green steel business. now, in terms of the losses, reportedly this was coasting tata steel about day, which is quite a considerable amount of money. they are a huge brand in india. it is in teak, it is in it, it is across lots of industries but steel is one of its biggest strands, one of its most valuable strands. since the financial crisis of 2000 2008, steel demand has been pretty weak and it has weakened over the last decade and so have prices and so we have seen steel as part of a bigger economy in the world and also in the uk diminishing terms of its importance. and what will this mean for the people who might be losing theirjobs? is there any provision in place for them to have otherjobs elsewhere or to be employed? what

sorts of things will happen to them? we have been hearing that unions have been in discussion with tata steel and other employers within the area. we don't really have anything definitive other than interviews that we have done over the past couple of days with union leaders. we have been hearing about how these new furnaces, these electric furnaces where involved and so the assumption is that there will be less workers unless jobs. there is an argument, though, that you can kind of transition in a way that would involve more people and more talent on board and we don't have a huge amount of detail on that. and there is some concern that security within the steel industry or at least national security that steel is something that people need to have for their industries and if they don't have it produced locally, you are then relying on international competitors to their may be situations where you don't

want to buy steel from them? so has that angle be affected? we have been hearing that a lot from people in tata steel, port talbot, former workers talking about now if this is the case we will be importing a lot more steel and this is clearly a key part of steel production in the uk, these two sites comedy sites in port talbot, however, as i was saying, steel was about 40% of the economy back into thousand and eight. since that financial crisis, we have seen global steel production lower and therefore global prices and that has been because of demand and so there is an argument that it is not as relevant and we need to transition now as we are looking at an emissions free future and also looking at green steel, that companies like tata steel need to think about how they are looking at lowering their carbon footprint. thank you very much for the time being. let's go to wales now and our correspondence who is in port talbot. how has the announcement been greeted there? well, it is confirmation of what many feared was

coming, certainly by yesterday afternoon it was clear that the job losses would be significant and soon, and this really puts detail to what many are feared. so 2800 jobs across the company uk. 2500 going within18 months and the majority based here at port talbot with the end of both those blast furnaces behind me, so the first to be phased out by the midpoint of this year, so in the coming months, the second to be decommissioned by the end of the year, so between those two comedy coking plant which supplies it, the port which brings in the raw ingredients, subsidiary sites all around it, we are talking about thousands of posts being lost here. now, tata steel says they will make every effort to stick with voluntary redundancies and avoid compulsory ones, but if you look at the sheer manpower involved, it seems very, very hard to see had that could be achieved. so lots of workers now as these beta details come through will be making those calculations that

they think they will be involved, do they think they will be involved, do they think they will be involved, do they think there is anyway of them hanging on or maybe transitioning to something else within the site. but while steel—making will continue here in the future, the arc furnace, they says, they don't believe we'll be ready until 2027, so there will be ready until 2027, so there will be an interim period of a couple of years where steel will have to be imported here and certainly no virgin steel will be made here again. it will depend in the future on recycling steel with that arc furnace, once it is up running. you mention that electric arc technology. they talk about the £1.25 billion investment in asset upgrades to secure long—term high—quality production there. and money is coming from the uk government. can you explain the background to that and how we have ended up this position? that was a deal announced back in september. the business secretary at the time said she felt it was a good

dealfor the workers. the time said she felt it was a good deal for the workers. tater needs to transition to cleaner, greener technology and the electric arc furnace can do that. it is dependent on there being lots of scrap metal and not having to import it. the uk government put in half £1 billion. tata match that with three quarters of £1 billion. that adds up to what it will take to build this arc furnace. .. . it will take to build this arc furnace. ., ., , , , ., ,, it will take to build this arc furnace. .. ., , , , ., ,, ., furnace. you have been speaking to o- osition furnace. you have been speaking to opposition politicians _ furnace. you have been speaking to opposition politicians there. - furnace. you have been speaking to opposition politicians there. what i opposition politicians there. what is their view on this? the opposition politicians there. what is their view on this?— is their view on this? the welsh labour government _ is their view on this? the welsh labour government has - is their view on this? the welsh labour government has made . is their view on this? the welsh i labour government has made clear is their view on this? the welsh - labour government has made clear it is unhappy with this and it believes the uk government hasn't done right by these workers, saying that steel is a an asset so it is essential to

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