live from london. this is bbc news. we continue with our live coverage of the post office rising review. the second grilling of the week todayis the second grilling of the week today is paul patterson, european director of fujitsu, the technology giant behind the rise in software. our business correspondence looks at what happened this morning. the system was made by fujitsu. the boss appeared before mps earlier.

today he faced questions from the official inquiry, and he started with another apology. to the sub—postmasters and their families, we apologise. fujitsu apologises and is sorry for our part in this appalling miscarriage of justice. this inquiry is examining those events forensically over many, many decades, which involved many parties, not least fujitsu today he explained how they had been aware of bugs for decades. there today he explained how they had been aware of bugs for decades.— aware of bugs for decades. there is lots of evidence _ aware of bugs for decades. there is lots of evidence of _ aware of bugs for decades. there is lots of evidence of us _ aware of bugs for decades. there is lots of evidence of us informing - aware of bugs for decades. there is lots of evidence of us informing the post office of that data, which was just discussed, bugs and errors, and how the bugs the financial position is reported. mr how the bugs the financial position is reported-— how the bugs the financial position is reported. mr pattison was asked wh the is reported. mr pattison was asked why the information _ is reported. mr pattison was asked why the information had _ is reported. mr pattison was asked why the information had not - is reported. mr pattison was asked why the information had not been l why the information had not been included on witness statements using prosecutions. i’m included on witness statements using prosecutions-_ prosecutions. i'm surprised the detail was _ prosecutions. i'm surprised the detail was not _ prosecutions. i'm surprised the detail was not included - prosecutions. i'm surprised the detail was not included in - prosecutions. i'm surprised the detail was not included in the l detail was not included in the witness statements, given by fujitsu staff to the post office, and i've seen some evidence of editing of

witness statements by others. he was asked about his _ witness statements by others. he was asked about his reaction _ witness statements by others. he was asked about his reaction to _ witness statements by others. he was asked about his reaction to that. - witness statements by others. he was asked about his reaction to that. i - asked about his reaction to that. i have no doubt you would regard that as shameful. | have no doubt you would regard that as shameful-— as shameful. i would... yes, that would be — as shameful. i would... yes, that would be one _ as shameful. i would... yes, that would be one that _ as shameful. i would... yes, that would be one that i _ as shameful. i would... yes, that would be one that i would - as shameful. i would... yes, that would be one that i would use. i would be one that i would use. what's the other one? shameful, a- allinu. what's the other one? shameful, appalling- my _ what's the other one? shameful, appalling. my understanding - what's the other one? shameful, appalling. my understanding of l what's the other one? shameful, i appalling. my understanding of how our norms work in this country, not all of the evidence should have been put in front of the sub—postmaster, that the postmasters are relying on to prosecute them.— that the postmasters are relying on to prosecute them. listening to the evidence was _ to prosecute them. listening to the evidence was lee _ to prosecute them. listening to the evidence was lee castleton, - to prosecute them. listening to the evidence was lee castleton, raise l evidence was lee castleton, raise sub—postmaster who was bankrupted by legal battle with the post office. his opinion... i legal battle with the post office. his opinion. . ._ legal battle with the post office. his opinion... i agree completely, it shameful _ his opinion... i agree completely, it shameful and _ his opinion... i agree completely, it shameful and appalling, - his opinion... i agree completely, it shameful and appalling, and - his opinion... i agree completely, it shameful and appalling, and i l it shameful and appalling, and i think_ it shameful and appalling, and i think they— it shameful and appalling, and i think they should _ it shameful and appalling, and i think they should hold - it shameful and appalling, and i think they should hold their- think they should hold their heads in shame — think they should hold their heads in shame. that's— think they should hold their heads in shame. that's not— think they should hold their heads in shame. that's not helping - think they should hold their heads in shame. that's not helping the i in shame. that's not helping the victims — in shame. that's not helping the victims. there _ in shame. that's not helping the victims. there is _ in shame. that's not helping the victims. there is 555— in shame. that's not helping the victims. there is 555 people - in shame. that's not helping the victims. there is 555 people stillj victims. there is 555 people still waiting — victims. there is 555 people still waiting for— victims. there is 555 people still waiting for this _ victims. there is 555 people still waiting for this to _ victims. there is 555 people still waiting for this to move - victims. there is 555 people still waiting for this to move on, - victims. there is 555 people still waiting for this to move on, andj victims. there is 555 people still. waiting for this to move on, and no one seems— waiting for this to move on, and no one seems to — waiting for this to move on, and no one seems to he _ waiting for this to move on, and no one seems to be looking _ waiting for this to move on, and no one seems to be looking at- waiting for this to move on, and no one seems to be looking at that. waiting for this to move on, and no one seems to be looking at that at| one seems to be looking at that at the moment _ one seems to be looking at that at the moment hir— one seems to be looking at that at the moment-— the moment. mr patterson is still

a- -aearin the moment. mr patterson is still appearing before _ the moment. mr patterson is still appearing before the _ the moment. mr patterson is still appearing before the inquiry, - the moment. mr patterson is still appearing before the inquiry, but| the moment. mr patterson is still. appearing before the inquiry, but is evident so far has already added to the long list of questions facing the long list of questions facing the post office and its former bosses. we can go live to our correspondent. you have spoken to one of the witnesses, when did they know there were problems with the a rising system? i were problems with the a rising s stem? ~ , ., .,, system? i think this morning has been a really _ system? i think this morning has been a really stark— system? i think this morning has been a really stark reminder - system? i think this morning has been a really stark reminder of l system? i think this morning has l been a really stark reminder of the central role that fujitsu played in the prosecution of supposed masters, evidence they gave in court led to people going to prison. wejust heard there from lee castleton, his story was portrayed by will mellor in the recent itv drama, and he was falsely accused of stealing £26,000,

and he was bankrupted by his case because he ended up paying all the legal fees. because he ended up paying all the legalfees. what because he ended up paying all the legal fees. what we have heard this morning from paul patterson, the head of fujitsu europe is that the data that was presented by fujitsu that was used in court was misleading. he said it was not a gold standard, not any standard, and he said on that later it's a very simple excel file which tells you not very much at all. it was a pretty devastating moment in the inquiry, because what he was saying was that data that led to the bankruptcy of lee castleton was based on data that really didn't stand up to scrutiny. in terms of this point about collusion between the post office and fujitsu, i don't think we are that much clearer today about what each side knew, he was telling who watch. i don't that we've got to the bottom of that yet,

you might find out more about that later in the year. what we did say was the existence of errors and bugs was the existence of errors and bugs was shared with the post office, the majority of that information was shared, but we don't know how high up shared, but we don't know how high up the post office that information was shared, we don't know the quality of the data they were sharing, how easy was it to the post office to interpret the significance office to interpret the significance of that? we don't know, but it was a prettyjaw—dropping set of revelations this morning from the head of fujitsu. in revelations this morning from the head of fujitsu.— revelations this morning from the head of fujitsu. head of fu'itsu. in terms of people watchin: head of fujitsu. in terms of people watching this. _ head of fujitsu. in terms of people watching this, when _ head of fujitsu. in terms of people watching this, when will _ head of fujitsu. in terms of people watching this, when will there - head of fujitsu. in terms of people watching this, when will there be l watching this, when will there be redress or compensation coming to the victims of this? how long is the inquiry expected to last, and will that get in the way of compensation getting to people who have been affected? , ., ., affected? yes, paul patterson, earlier giving — affected? yes, paul patterson, earlier giving testimony - affected? yes, paul patterson, earlier giving testimony to - affected? yes, paul patterson, l earlier giving testimony to mps, said there is a moral obligation to give compensation, to support a's

conversation of fund, but this inquiry is due to take evidence until the end of the year, so the idea of how much money fujitsu is going to put on the table, that's not going to become clear until next year. we not going to become clear until next ear. ~ .., not going to become clear until next ear, ~ ., not going to become clear until next ear. . .,, ., not going to become clear until next ear. ~ .., ., , ., ., year. we can go straight to the inuui year. we can go straight to the inquiry listening. _ year. we can go straight to the inquiry listening. mr— year. we can go straight to the| inquiry listening. mr patterson, year. we can go straight to the - inquiry listening. mr patterson, you have exolained _ inquiry listening. mr patterson, you have explained this _ inquiry listening. mr patterson, you have explained this week _ inquiry listening. mr patterson, you have explained this week and - have explained this week and today that fujitsu is committed to engaging with government to provide a suitable contribution of redress this postmasters and their families. within this inquiry, the question of how compensation is being dealt with has been described variously. we have put it as being a scandal within a scandal. will you commit to making sure that what fujitsu does

regarding its own offer to put money into the government's pot to assist or compensation does not delay or sidetrack the efforts to secure proper compensation for suppose masters and mistresses? yes. proper compensation for suppose masters and mistresses?- proper compensation for suppose masters and mistresses? yes, i can commit to — masters and mistresses? yes, i can commit to that, _ masters and mistresses? yes, i can commit to that, i _ masters and mistresses? yes, i can commit to that, ithink— masters and mistresses? yes, i can commit to that, i think the - masters and mistresses? yes, i can commit to that, i think the way - masters and mistresses? yes, i can commit to that, i think the way that we have _ commit to that, i think the way that we have tried to engage with the inquiry— we have tried to engage with the inquiry and the government shows that we _ inquiry and the government shows that we are — inquiry and the government shows that we are very committed to finding — that we are very committed to finding the truth, and we will do nothing — finding the truth, and we will do nothing to— finding the truth, and we will do nothing to delay that. you finding the truth, and we will do nothing to delay that.— finding the truth, and we will do nothing to delay that. you are aware that suppose — nothing to delay that. you are aware that suppose masters _ nothing to delay that. you are aware that suppose masters and _ nothing to delay that. you are aware l that suppose masters and mistresses, managers, people have worked in branches, their lives and their families lives have been ruined, devastated, by the decades of the scandal. those people that we represent have lived through the great post office cover—up, the second site investigation, second

site and what happens in relation to the reports, the time that the brave 555 sub postmasters took on the post office at the high court and expose the corruption at the heart of the scandal, and then the criminal court of appeals, and now they are living through the post office inquiry. help us understand, why did it take so long for fujitsu to decide it had a moral obligation to put its hands in its pockets? and provide money, notjust in its pockets? and provide money, not just apologies. in its pockets? and provide money, notjust apologies. this in its pockets? and provide money, not just apologies.— notjust apologies. as you said in our notjust apologies. as you said in your comments, _ notjust apologies. as you said in your comments, this _ notjust apologies. as you said in your comments, this is _ notjust apologies. as you said in your comments, this is a - notjust apologies. as you said in - your comments, this is a decades-old your comments, this is a decades—old miscarriage _ your comments, this is a decades—old miscarriage, which started a long time _ miscarriage, which started a long time ago — miscarriage, which started a long time ago and evolves many people and organisations in that. i think fujitsu — organisations in that. i think fujitsu more recently, as we've

understood more, we have clearly let society— understood more, we have clearly let society down, and the sub postmasters down. i think we had our obligations _ postmasters down. i think we had our obligations to the post office to be at the _ obligations to the post office to be at the front of everything we were doing. _ at the front of everything we were doing. and — at the front of everything we were doing, and that was wrong. i think subsequently we have now seen where the evidence is taken as an investigation, and that's why you had the — investigation, and that's why you had the statements from fujitsu more recently. _ had the statements from fujitsu more recently. i _ had the statements from fujitsu more recently, i can't comment on the past _ recently, i can't comment on the past i_ recently, ican't comment on the past idon't— recently, i can't comment on the past. i don't know why things weren't— past. i don't know why things weren't done in 1999 2005, i don't know, _ weren't done in 1999 2005, i don't know. but— weren't done in 1999 2005, i don't know. but i— weren't done in 1999 2005, i don't know, but i can say is that as long as im _ know, but i can say is that as long as im here — know, but i can say is that as long as i'm here and do what i'm doing and going— as i'm here and do what i'm doing and going to do anything i can to ensure _ and going to do anything i can to ensure that we get the truth. but that's not ensure that we get the truth. emit that's not quite true, is it? fujitsu plasma commitment, what it now appears to accept via you, a moral obligation to pay up, that's only been most recently expressed by you, whereas the apology by fujitsu

has been expressed, the opening stages of the inquiry, in your statements to this inquiry. why has it taken so long for fujitsu to own up it taken so long for fujitsu to own up to the fact it needs to put its hand it's brilliant pant pockets and pay something to pay towards compensation? i pay something to pay towards compensation?— pay something to pay towards compensation? i don't know the answer to _ compensation? i don't know the answer to that _ compensation? i don't know the answer to that question, - compensation? i don't know the answer to that question, can - compensation? i don't know the l answer to that question, can only you my— answer to that question, can only you my honest view today which is that we _ you my honest view today which is that we come to this conclusion has become _ that we come to this conclusion has become through the inquiry and guarantee evidence and considered a moral— guarantee evidence and considered a moral obligation the victims of this crime _ moral obligation the victims of this crime and — moral obligation the victims of this crime, and that is why you've heard what _ crime, and that is why you've heard what i've _ crime, and that is why you've heard what i've said most recently. i can't. — what i've said most recently. i can't. i— what i've said most recently. i can't, i don't know why in the past we can't, idon't know why in the past we didn't— can't, idon't know why in the past we didn't say— can't, i don't know why in the past we didn't say those things. haste can't, i don't know why in the past we didn't say those things. have you met a single — we didn't say those things. have you met a single sub-postmaster? - we didn't say those things. have you | met a single sub-postmaster? know, i have not. met a single sub-postmaster? know, i have not- will— met a single sub-postmaster? know, i have not. will you _ met a single sub-postmaster? know, i

have not. will you commit _ met a single sub-postmaster? know, i have not. will you commit today - met a single sub-postmaster? know, i have not. will you commit today to - have not. will you commit today to meetin: have not. will you commit today to meeting some _ have not. will you commit today to meeting some postmasters, - meeting some postmasters, discussing with them the way forward that fujitsu can assist in seeking to show that fujitsu means what it says bites apoligy and by its commitment to provide financial redress? i bites apoligy and by its commitment to provide financial redress?- to provide financial redress? i have not met any _ to provide financial redress? i have not met any sub — to provide financial redress? i have not met any sub postmasters - to provide financial redress? i have not met any sub postmasters in - to provide financial redress? i have| not met any sub postmasters in the past, _ not met any sub postmasters in the past, because i didn't feel it was appropriate for me to do that. if that is— appropriate for me to do that. if that is a — appropriate for me to do that. if that is a request from the sub postmasters in the representation, i would _ postmasters in the representation, i would absolutely do that and i will sit down _ would absolutely do that and i will sit down with my colleagues as you have just _ sit down with my colleagues as you have just said. you sit down with my colleagues as you have just said-— have 'ust said. you are aware that the have just said. you are aware that the effect of _ have just said. you are aware that the effect of the _ have just said. you are aware that the effect of the scandal- have just said. you are aware that the effect of the scandal upon - have just said. you are aware that the effect of the scandal upon sub postmasters was very much felt by their families, postmasters was very much felt by theirfamilies, by the postmasters was very much felt by their families, by the loved postmasters was very much felt by theirfamilies, by the loved ones, by their partners and their children. this devastated notjust the sub postmasters individually, but everyone around them. some postmasters, because they could not see what was going on, would

sometimes blame their own partners or their employees, and the effect therefore of the scandal is much more widespread than on suppose masters themselves, live sometimes have been terminated by the scandal. will fujitsu commit to providing funds and recompense for all the hurts to others outside of sub postmasters and the compensation scheme? in other words, financial redress to support others that have been affected? you may want to think that what could be done by fujitsu is supporting people in the future, sub postmasters, in future, entrepreneurial endeavours, their families and such and in education, will fujitsu consider that kind of support? will fujitsu consider that kind of su ort? , . support? the inquiry and the exploration _ support? the inquiry and the exploration of _ support? the inquiry and the exploration of the _ support? the inquiry and the exploration of the history - support? the inquiry and the exploration of the history of| support? the inquiry and the l exploration of the history of all support? the inquiry and the - exploration of the history of all of

this is— exploration of the history of all of this is giving a great deal of attention and support from us. our company— attention and support from us. our company here in the uk, it does many things— company here in the uk, it does many things in_ company here in the uk, it does many things in society, around the country. _ things in society, around the country, around the uk. ithink things in society, around the country, around the uk. i think the suggestion— country, around the uk. i think the suggestion you've just made, clearly in a conversation, if i was able to engage _ in a conversation, if i was able to engage in— in a conversation, if i was able to engage in it _ in a conversation, if i was able to engage in it with suppose masters and representation, representatives, would _ and representation, representatives, would be _ and representation, representatives, would be absolutely something we would _ would be absolutely something we would like to consider. i think skills— would like to consider. i think skills in— would like to consider. i think skills in our country, without jumping _ skills in our country, without jumping too far, is very important, and i_ jumping too far, is very important, and i think— jumping too far, is very important, and i think there are things we can do in_ and i think there are things we can do in our— and i think there are things we can do in our technology world that may or may _ do in our technology world that may or may not — do in our technology world that may or may not be of help to sub postmasters and their associated families, — postmasters and their associated families, so i would engage in that conversation. i can't promise the outcome — conversation. ican't promise the outcome of— conversation. i can't promise the outcome of that, but i would engage it with _ outcome of that, but i would engage it with it— outcome of that, but i would engage it with it in_ outcome of that, but i would engage it with it in the right way. do outcome of that, but i would engage it with it in the right way.— it with it in the right way. do you a . ree it with it in the right way. do you auree a it with it in the right way. do you agree a restorative _ it with it in the right way. do you agree a restorative justice - it with it in the right way. do you i agree a restorative justice process. as muscle, theirfamilies, everyone affected, should include making sure fujitsu does everything it can to put those people back in the rightful place in their communities,

restoring the trust and the owner that lost this process? we restoring the trust and the owner that lost this process?— that lost this process? we are completely. — that lost this process? we are completely, the _ that lost this process? we are completely, the company - that lost this process? we are completely, the company is i completely, the company is completely, the company is completely committed to doing that through— completely committed to doing that through the inquiry, and my comments to the _ through the inquiry, and my comments to the select _ through the inquiry, and my comments to the select committee and the government. there are many parties involved _ government. there are many parties involved in_ government. there are many parties involved in this and we have a part to play— involved in this and we have a part to play in— involved in this and we have a part to play in it. — involved in this and we have a part to play in it, we will do everything we can— to play in it, we will do everything we can suggest is wrong is in every way we _ we can suggest is wrong is in every way we can — we can suggest is wrong is in every way we can-— we can suggest is wrong is in every way we can. sitting to my left is mr enriaht, way we can. sitting to my left is mr enright. one _ way we can. sitting to my left is mr enright. one of _ way we can. sitting to my left is mr enright, one of their _ way we can. sitting to my left is mr enright, one of their partners - way we can. sitting to my left is mr enright, one of their partners at - enright, one of their partners at the solicitors. he is available today to you to speak to. can you make time to speak to him to start a conversation with him today? we will finish at whatever _ conversation with him today? we will finish at whatever time _ conversation with him today? we will finish at whatever time we _ conversation with him today? we will finish at whatever time we finished i finish at whatever time we finished the day, _ finish at whatever time we finished the day, and i would be welcome to excl exchange contact details. more time, _ excl exchange contact details. more time i_ excl exchange contact details. more time, i don't when we were finished, but i time, i don't when we were finished, but i would _ time, i don't when we were finished, but i would be willing to meet mr enright — but i would be willing to meet mr enright. clearly there are other

people — enright. clearly there are other people on— enright. clearly there are other people on fujitsu's side who'd need to be _ people on fujitsu's side who'd need to be attending to that.— to be attending to that. you're robabl to be attending to that. you're probably aware _ to be attending to that. you're probably aware that _ to be attending to that. you're probably aware that some - to be attending to that. you're probably aware that some of. to be attending to that. you're i probably aware that some of our clients here today, they managed to speak to your exchange details and setup meetings with you, would you accept that something you will conduct if possible today, but otherwise make arrangements with your team? i otherwise make arrangements with our team? . ~ otherwise make arrangements with our team? ., ,, ., otherwise make arrangements with ourteam? ., ,, ., ., , , ., your team? i will talk to anybody at anyjuncture- _ your team? i will talk to anybody at anyjuncture- i— your team? i will talk to anybody at anyjuncture. i have _ your team? i will talk to anybody at anyjuncture. i have made - your team? i will talk to anybody at anyjuncture. i have made a - your team? i will talk to anybody at anyjuncture. i have made a great l anyjuncture. i have made a great deal of— anyjuncture. i have made a great deal of respect for the sub postmasters, i have no understanding, because i've never gone _ understanding, because i've never gone through what they have personally gone through, and we are more _ personally gone through, and we are more than _ personally gone through, and we are more than happy to engage in conversation. i'm not sure today is the right— conversation. i'm not sure today is the right time in the place for it, if you _ the right time in the place for it, if you will— the right time in the place for it, if you will allow me, but i am happy to do— if you will allow me, but i am happy to do that — if you will allow me, but i am happy to do that. . ~ if you will allow me, but i am happy to do that. ., ,, i. ~ ., to do that. thank you, mr patterson. who's next? — to do that. thank you, mr patterson. who's next? i— to do that. thank you, mr patterson. who's next? i think _ to do that. thank you, mr patterson. who's next? i think mr— to do that. thank you, mr patterson. who's next? i think mr dobbin - to do that. thank you, mr patterson. who's next? i think mr dobbin had i who's next? i think mr dobbin had some questions. _

who's next? i think mr dobbin had some questions. yes. _ iam quite i am quite often, i have some questions for you, there are the more technical in nature. are you in a position to explain or provide any information as to whether or not the post office in fact agreed the parameters of the aoki return? do you understand my question? i parameters of the aoki return? do you understand my question? i think i do, in you understand my question? i think i do. in my — you understand my question? i think i do, in my evidence _ you understand my question? i think i do, in my evidence today, - you understand my question? i think i do, in my evidence today, and - you understand my question? i think i do, in my evidence today, and i- i do, in my evidence today, and i think— i do, in my evidence today, and i think previously, there is a document that says what the material should _ document that says what the material should be _ document that says what the material should be, or the document that says what the material should be, orthe parameters document that says what the material should be, or the parameters inside an a arc— should be, or the parameters inside an a arc you — should be, or the parameters inside an a arc you need to be, and that is something — an a arc you need to be, and that is something that came to fujitsu. to

know something that came to fujitsu. know why something that came to fujitsu. trr know why the post office wanted that type of information or apply the criteria to what they wanted when they made the aoki request? flat criteria to what they wanted when they made the aoki request? not all they made the aoki request? not all the time. i think _ they made the aoki request? not all the time. i think in _ they made the aoki request? not all the time. i think in the _ they made the aoki request? not all the time. i think in the chart - they made the aoki request? not all the time. i think in the chart we - the time. i think in the chart we saw eartier— the time. i think in the chart we saw earlier some of it would have been _ saw earlier some of it would have been for— saw earlier some of it would have been for prosecutor retype support. ithink— been for prosecutor retype support. i think on— been for prosecutor retype support. i think on the other side of that flow— i think on the other side of that flow chart — i think on the other side of that flow chart was of the reasons for ar cues, _ flow chart was of the reasons for ar cues, and _ flow chart was of the reasons for ar cues, and they could be a vast array of those _ cues, and they could be a vast array of those, criteria that the post office — of those, criteria that the post office might request.- of those, criteria that the post office might request. seems as thou:h office might request. seems as though the _ office might request. seems as though the question _ office might request. seems as though the question may - office might request. seems as though the question may be . office might request. seems as - though the question may be directed better to someone else who may under stand the parameters, but thank you. when we look at some historic arq requests, and talking about the pro forma type form that you will have seen the post office sense, have you seen the post office sense, have you seen any of those?— seen any of those? yes, in the exhibits, _ seen any of those? yes, in the exhibits, i _ seen any of those? yes, in the

exhibits, i believe. _ seen any of those? yes, in the exhibits, i believe. it's- seen any of those? yes, in the exhibits, i believe. it's right, l seen any of those? yes, in the i exhibits, i believe. it's right, one ofthe exhibits, i believe. it's right, one of the post _ exhibits, i believe. it's right, one of the post things _ exhibits, i believe. it's right, one of the post things the _ exhibits, i believe. it's right, one of the post things the post - exhibits, i believe. it's right, one of the post things the post office | of the post things the post office could request for that is that there are no repeated systematic malfunctions. is that correct, have you seen that? i malfunctions. is that correct, have you seen that?— you seen that? i think it is in the exhibit, if— you seen that? i think it is in the exhibit, if we _ you seen that? i think it is in the exhibit, if we could _ you seen that? i think it is in the exhibit, if we could go _ you seen that? i think it is in the exhibit, if we could go to - you seen that? i think it is in the exhibit, if we could go to the - exhibit, if we could go to the exhibits _ exhibit, if we could go to the exhibits i _ exhibit, if we could go to the exhibits i think it shows the criteria _ exhibits i think it shows the criteria. �* ., , ., criteria. i'm not sure i have the exhibit to _ criteria. i'm not sure i have the exhibit to home, _ criteria. i'm not sure i have the exhibit to home, i— criteria. i'm not sure i have the exhibit to home, i certainly - criteria. i'm not sure i have the. exhibit to home, i certainly have one that may i could use, unless you have the exhibit. i one that may i could use, unless you have the exhibit.— have the exhibit. i think we can disla have the exhibit. i think we can display it- _ have the exhibit. i think we can display it. release _ have the exhibit. i think we can display it. release the - have the exhibit. i think we can display it. release the post - have the exhibit. i think we can i display it. release the post office intui . breaking news now and — four people have been found dead at a house near norwich. norfolk police says officers forced their way into an address in cossey, shortly before 7am following a call from a member of the public.

joining us now on the line is matt precey from bbc look east. it is in an area called queens hill, which is a relatively new estate to the north of norwich. they were called about 7am, they sealed off the streets, there is a white tent outside the front door, there are police officers milling around, officers in white scene of crime suits going in and out of the address, i've spoken to some of the neighbours and there is a palpable sense of shock in the community this afternoon. , ,., , , ., afternoon. there is some suggestion the victims are _ afternoon. there is some suggestion the victims are known _ afternoon. there is some suggestion the victims are known to _ afternoon. there is some suggestion the victims are known to each - afternoon. there is some suggestion the victims are known to each other, j the victims are known to each other, is that right?— is that right? that's what we have heard, is that right? that's what we have heard. though _ is that right? that's what we have heard, though i _ is that right? that's what we have heard, though i can't _ is that right? that's what we have heard, though i can't provide - heard, though i can't provide confirmation of that. what i have been told by two sets of neighbours is they visited the address is approximately a fortnight before christmas, a number of officers were at the property sometime in

december. at the property sometime in december-_ at the property sometime in december. ., , . december. thanks very much in brin . int december. thanks very much in bringing that — december. thanks very much in bringing that update. _ december. thanks very much in bringing that update. we - december. thanks very much in bringing that update. we will. december. thanks very much in i bringing that update. we will come back when we have more information. let's ta ke let's take you back to the post office inquiry and listening again. you are not familiar with that, i think, from what you're saying. correct. if think, from what you're saying. correct. . �* , correct. if that's right, it indicates _ correct. if that's right, it indicates there - correct. if that's right, it indicates there was - correct. if that's right, it indicates there was that | correct. if that's right, it - indicates there was that option correct. if that's right, it _ indicates there was that option open to the post office when submitting a arq request. to the post office when submitting a arq request-— to the post office when submitting a arq request. yes. thank you, iwant arq request. yes. thank you, i want to to then arq request. yes. thank you, i want to go then to — arq request. yes. thank you, i want to go then to the _ arq request. yes. thank you, iwant to go then to the witness statement, and if i asking you a question that is beyond your knowledge, please do say. if we go to your witness

statement, that he might... and please maybe go to paragraph 102, page a7. so, page a7. thank you. now, this is talking about changes that were brought in in the context of craik park. and that's talking

about event messages. have you had a chance to look at that? yes. paragraph — chance to look at that? yes. paragraph 103, _ chance to look at that? yes. paragraph 103, please. - chance to look at that? yes. paragraph 103, please. this| paragraph 103, please. this is talking about it change proposal that was made in relation to the audit system, and this is talking about the automatic retrieval and filtering of data.— about the automatic retrieval and filtering of data._ as | about the automatic retrieval and | filtering of data._ as i filtering of data. understood. as i said, if this _ filtering of data. understood. as i said, if this is _ filtering of data. understood. as i said, if this is beyond _ filtering of data. understood. as i said, if this is beyond your- said, if this is beyond your knowledge, please do say, but is it right that the checking of empty events, that started to become part of the processes part of the craik park incident? i of the processes part of the craik park incident?— of the processes part of the craik park incident?_ ok, | of the processes part of the craik| park incident?_ ok, i park incident? i don't know. ok, i willt park incident? i don't know. ok, i will try someone _ park incident? i don't know. ok, i will try someone else _ park incident? i don't know. ok, i will try someone else with - park incident? i don't know. ok, i will try someone else with that. i will try someone else with that. finally, justice, when you asked questions about anne chambers and her experience of the high court, you said you were horrified that she

was being contacted directly by a solicitor who was acting for the post office, and you appear to be basing that on your knowledge of how a corporation should work and how its employees should go to legal proceedings. is that right? mr; proceedings. is that right? my concern was that if any employee was in conversation a legal representative without serious engagement, i felt it was not appropriate, and she felt the same to be _ appropriate, and she felt the same to be involved in the situation. 30 to be involved in the situation. so the to be involved in the situation. the company to be involved in the situation. 5r the company acted as a sort of interlocutor to be in dialogue with the employee to make sure they understood what they were doing and what was being asked of them? i what was being asked of them? i think as i was asked earlier, this concept — think as i was asked earlier, this concept of— think as i was asked earlier, this concept of expert witness, this is

very serious, we are dealing with serious _ very serious, we are dealing with serious matters. i did not feel that they felt— serious matters. i did not feel that they felt the same, they needed proper— they felt the same, they needed proper engagement and representation. | proper engagement and representation.- proper engagement and representation. proper engagement and reresentation. ~ , ., ., , representation. i think you always said that you _ representation. i think you always said that you were _ representation. i think you always said that you were horrified - representation. i think you always said that you were horrified taken | said that you were horrified taken aback that she was being contacted by a solicitor in order to deal with disclosure as well.— by a solicitor in order to deal with disclosure as well. yes. it again, is that the _ disclosure as well. yes. it again, is that the same _ disclosure as well. yes. it again, is that the same reason - disclosure as well. yes. it again, is that the same reason again, that it is really the company that should be involved in the process? meiji. be involved in the process? well, whether it — be involved in the process? well, whether it is _ be involved in the process? well, whether it is a _ be involved in the process? well, whether it is a company - be involved in the process? well, whether it is a company or- be involved in the process? well, whether it is a company or not, i | whether it is a company or not, i think— whether it is a company or not, i think my— whether it is a company or not, i think my point is that these are such— think my point is that these are such serious matters for the case in front— such serious matters for the case in front of— such serious matters for the case in front of the — such serious matters for the case in front of the court and the impact potentially on a sub—postmaster, i needed _ potentially on a sub—postmaster, i needed to— potentially on a sub—postmaster, i needed to be dealt with with the film needed to be dealt with with the right professionals in the room, taking _ right professionals in the room, taking the — right professionals in the room, taking the right advice and looking at the _ taking the right advice and looking at the conversation, but what is being _ at the conversation, but what is being asked in that particular case. yes, _ being asked in that particular case. yes. to— being asked in that particular case. yes, to make sure it was understood

what she needed to do. i'm grateful to you, thank you.— to you, thank you. before anyone else ask the _ to you, thank you. before anyone else ask the question, _ to you, thank you. before anyone else ask the question, can - to you, thank you. before anyone else ask the question, can i - to you, thank you. before anyone else ask the question, can ijust l to you, thank you. before anyone l else ask the question, can ijust be clear— else ask the question, can ijust be clear about — else ask the question, can ijust be clear about one _ else ask the question, can ijust be clear about one of— else ask the question, can ijust be clear about one of the _ else ask the question, can ijust be clear about one of the answers - else ask the question, can ijust be clear about one of the answers youj clear about one of the answers you .ave clear about one of the answers you gave to _ clear about one of the answers you gave to miss — clear about one of the answers you gave to miss dobbin _ clear about one of the answers you gave to miss dobbin about - clear about one of the answers you gave to miss dobbin about the - clear about one of the answers youi gave to miss dobbin about the form about— gave to miss dobbin about the form about which— gave to miss dobbin about the form about which arq _ gave to miss dobbin about the form about which arq data _ gave to miss dobbin about the form about which arq data resort - gave to miss dobbin about the form about which arq data resort by - gave to miss dobbin about the form about which arq data resort by the | about which arq data resort by the post office? — about which arq data resort by the post office? am _ about which arq data resort by the post office? am i— about which arq data resort by the post office? am i to _ about which arq data resort by the post office? am i to understand - about which arq data resort by the i post office? am i to understand that form is _ post office? am i to understand that form is by— post office? am i to understand that form is by the — post office? am i to understand that form is by the post— post office? am i to understand that form is by the post office _ post office? am i to understand that form is by the post office without - form is by the post office without any input — form is by the post office without any input by _ form is by the post office without any input by fujitsu, _ form is by the post office without any input by fujitsu, or— form is by the post office without any input by fujitsu, or is - form is by the post office without any input by fujitsu, or is it- form is by the post office without any input by fujitsu, or is it a - any input by fujitsu, or is it a combined _ any input by fujitsu, or is it a combined effort, _ any input by fujitsu, or is it a combined effort, or- any input by fujitsu, or is it a combined effort, or what? i any input by fujitsu, or is ital combined effort, orwhat? i'm any input by fujitsu, or is it a - combined effort, orwhat? i'm not quite _ combined effort, orwhat? i'm not quite sure — combined effort, orwhat? i'm not quite sure where _ combined effort, orwhat? i'm not quite sure where we _ combined effort, orwhat? i'm not quite sure where we are _ combined effort, orwhat? i'm not quite sure where we are with - combined effort, orwhat? i'm not| quite sure where we are with that, so ijust— quite sure where we are with that, so ijust like — quite sure where we are with that, so ijust like you _ quite sure where we are with that, so ijust like you to— quite sure where we are with that, so ijust like you to tell _ quite sure where we are with that, so ijust like you to tell me - quite sure where we are with that, so ijust like you to tell me again i so ijust like you to tell me again if you _ so ijust like you to tell me again if you could _ so ijust like you to tell me again if you could-— so ijust like you to tell me again if you could. the way i understood the question _ if you could. the way i understood the question was _ if you could. the way i understood the question was the _ if you could. the way i understood the question was the form - if you could. the way i understood the question was the form that. if you could. the way i understood the question was the form that is | the question was the form that is sent to _ the question was the form that is sent to fujitsu requesting arq data, mr beard _ sent to fujitsu requesting arq data, mr beard showed one, miss dobbin i think was— mr beard showed one, miss dobbin i think was referring to another version — think was referring to another version of— think was referring to another version of it. that is a document that— version of it. that is a document that will— version of it. that is a document that will come from the post office

to fujitsu, — that will come from the post office to fujitsu, i understand, saying what _ to fujitsu, i understand, saying what criteria to apply. i think it had evolved over time, but it's a document— had evolved over time, but it's a document from the post office to fujitsu _ document from the post office to fujitsu l — document from the post office to fu'itsu. ., ., ., ,., document from the post office to fu'itsu. ., ., ., ., fujitsu. i follow the trail, so to seak, fujitsu. i follow the trail, so to speak, it _ fujitsu. i follow the trail, so to speak. it goes _ fujitsu. i follow the trail, so to speak, it goes from _ fujitsu. i follow the trail, so to speak, it goes from the - fujitsu. i follow the trail, so to speak, it goes from the post i fujitsu. i follow the trail, so to - speak, it goes from the post office to fujitsu~ — speak, it goes from the post office to fujitsu~ my— speak, it goes from the post office to fujitsu. my query— speak, it goes from the post office to fujitsu. my query is, _ speak, it goes from the post office to fujitsu. my query is, who - speak, it goes from the post office i to fujitsu. my query is, who created that document — to fujitsu. my query is, who created that document in _ to fujitsu. my query is, who created that document in the _ to fujitsu. my query is, who created that document in the first _ to fujitsu. my query is, who created that document in the first place? i. that document in the first place? i don't that document in the first place? don't know. that document in the first place? i don't know. thank _ that document in the first place? i don't know. thank you. _ that document in the first place? i don't know. thank you. before - that document in the first place? i i don't know. thank you. before miss paine asks don't know. thank you. before miss paige asks a — don't know. thank you. before miss paige asks a question _ don't know. thank you. before miss paige asks a question is, _ don't know. thank you. before miss paige asks a question is, i - don't know. thank you. before miss paige asks a question is, i think- don't know. thank you. before miss paige asks a question is, i think i i paige asks a question is, i think i can help on that issue to a limited extent, so although it's totally out of order, because it's an issue that has raised its head now by virtue of your question, i wonder whether we could look at a few] a0138.

sorry, that's the wrong reference. that's what happens when you ask a question... that's what happens when you ask a ruestion. .. ~ �* that's what happens when you ask a question- - -_ question... well, i'll try to be auiet question... well, i'll try to be quiet from — question... well, i'll try to be quiet from now— question... well, i'll try to be quiet from now on! _ question... well, i'll try to be quiet from now on! i - question... well, i'll try to be quiet from now on! i am - question... well, i'll try to be| quiet from now on! i am going question... well, i'll try to be . quiet from now on! i am going to retrieve the _ quiet from now on! i am going to retrieve the position. _ this was the fujitsu 2005 document. it was a procedure, or a policy document. interestingly, dated to

correspondence on the course of the day, 29th of february 2005, 2005 wasn't a leap year, so it must�*ve been misstated. that aside, we can find in within this document at page 28. just like the boiler plates witness statement, a template with this statement, a template with this statement, there was a template arq four earlier in the policy document, it set out, when you are making a arq, when the post office is making an arq request, this is the document it should use. an arq request, this is the document it should use-— it should use. right, so it effectively, _ it should use. right, so it effectively, it's _ it should use. right, so it effectively, it's a - it should use. right, so it effectively, it's a fujitsu i it should use. right, so it- effectively, it's a fujitsu created document— effectively, it's a fujitsu created document which _ effectively, it's a fujitsu created document which the _ effectively, it's a fujitsu created document which the post - effectively, it's a fujitsu created document which the post officel

effectively, it's a fujitsu created - document which the post office then sends— document which the post office then sends to _ document which the post office then sends to fujitsu _ document which the post office then sends to fujitsu to _ document which the post office then sends to fujitsu to make _ document which the post office then sends to fujitsu to make its - sends to fujitsu to make its request _ sends to fu'itsu to make its retuest. , ., .,, sends to fu'itsu to make its retuest. , ., ~,, request. yes. the position, as miss dobbin has — request. yes. the position, as miss dobbin has said, _ request. yes. the position, as miss dobbin has said, does _ request. yes. the position, as miss dobbin has said, does move - request. yes. the position, as miss dobbin has said, does move on - request. yes. the position, as miss| dobbin has said, does move on from this. we can explore with other witnesses, looking at other documents, how the amendments to this form were made by whom, and when. �* . �* , this form were made by whom, and when. �* ., �* , ., this form were made by whom, and when. �* ., �*, ., , ., when. but that's how it started, as a fu'itsu when. but that's how it started, as a fujitsu created _ when. but that's how it started, as a fujitsu created document. - when. but that's how it started, as a fujitsu created document. yes. i a fujitsu created document. yes. richts. a fujitsu created document. yes. rights- thank — a fujitsu created document. yes. rights. thank you, _ a fujitsu created document. yes. rights. thank you, i _ a fujitsu created document. yes. rights. thank you, i hope - a fujitsu created document. yes. rights. thank you, i hope that i rights. thank you, i hope that hels. rights. thank you, i hope that helps- over — rights. thank you, i hope that helps. over to _ rights. thank you, i hope that helps. over to you, _ rights. thank you, i hope that helps. over to you, miss - rights. thank you, i hope that. helps. over to you, miss paige. thank you. _ helps. over to you, miss paige. thank you, sir. _ helps. over to you, miss paige. thank you, sir. i— helps. over to you, miss paige. thank you, sir. i appear- helps. over to you, miss paige. thank you, sir. i appear for - helps. over to you, miss paige. thank you, sir. i appear for a i thank you, sir. i appearfor a number of postmasters, including mr castleton. first of all, the inquiry has heard evidence that providing a rq dated to the post office, bringing in hundreds of thousands of pounds per annum, which is obviously

small beer in the context, but would be a handy bit of extra income. i be a handy bit of extra income. i think that's a very material sum of money _ on top of that there were charges for witnesses to appear in court and provide their evidence. we understand for example that in the trial of tracy fell stood there was a charge of £20,000. for a witness to attend court it was neverin for a witness to attend court it was never in fact paid but that was the proposed sum of money. have you ever looked into or found proposed sum of money. have you ever looked into orfound out proposed sum of money. have you ever looked into or found out about how much money fujitsu charged for the services of garethjenkins much money fujitsu charged for the services of gareth jenkins for example as a witness over the years? no, i have not. example as a witness over the years? no. i have not-— no, i have not. would you accept litiaation no, i have not. would you accept litigation support _ no, i have not. would you accept litigation support was _ no, i have not. would you accept litigation support was a _ no, i have not. would you accept litigation support was a useful. no, i have not. would you accept i litigation support was a useful cash cow for fujitsu ? litigation support was a useful cash cow for fujitsu? i litigation support was a useful cash cow for fujitsu?— cow for fujitsu? i was professionally - cow for fujitsu? i was professionally very i cow for fujitsu? i was - professionally very surprised

cow for fujitsu? i was _ professionally very surprised that service _ professionally very surprised that service even existed. we are meant to be _ service even existed. we are meant to be an _