into and especially late on sunday into monday that is when storm isha will bring the biggest impact. severe gales are many sing disruption as we head into monday morning. before we get there, we have rain that is pushing on across parts of northern ireland into scotland overnight. snow over the highest ground and it stays dry and chilly towards the south—east but by dawn those temperatures will rise above freezing. it could be a slight frost, particularly in the south—east but it should clear away quickly. we have this milder air sweeping and as those weather fronts push their way from west to east. it will be a breezy day, milder than it has been, some rain to central portions of the uk, more showers in the north—west. the driest weather will be down towards the south of england but also north east scotland there could be a bit of sunshine. six or seven in the east but back into double figures towards the west. heavy rain pushes in from the west with squally winds through saturday night. and into sunday, this weather system is storm isha.

it is pushing in and in between the one front and the cold front of the system that is when we will see the strong, gusty winds. pushing to sunday, rain working in from the west. dry weather for the south—east of england, but the wind is the real feature, gales developing a top temperature is around 12 or 13 degrees. we do have amber warnings in force across many parts of the uk and we could seat those win 70, even 80 miles an hour and enough to cause some to cause some the in grangemouth, the huge oil refinery is preparing to close with the loss of hundreds ofjobs. how do towns and communities cope with the closure of oil and gas plants as we pivot to a zero carbon future?

tata is closing its blast furnace in port talbot too. everyone wants to be green, but is the pain getting shared equally? this is about making sure that we do a just transition. 400 people losing theirjobs is not a just transition. it means that they are being thrown out at the whim of the owners of the site, because they don't think it is profitable any more. we'll be asking the snp's depute leader whether what is happening in grangemouth is a just transition. and we'll ask him what he makes of the revelation that the former first minister, nicola sturgeon, deleted her texts from the pandemic, after saying she would hand them over. the post office inquiry heard more mea culpas from fujutsu today — that they'd known about glitches in horizon software since 1999. our guests — a former postmistress from near glasgow

and a subpostmaster from inverness — lost their livelihoods, and are still in debt. peter worsfold is still paying his 97—year—old mother back. i never lost trust in him, i neverwould. i wouldn't even now, and even now he's got it hard. i mean, he's 79 and he's not had any life. and it's the opening of glasgow's 30th celtic connections music festival, with performers from all over the world. tonight, playing us out live will be the nordic fiddlers bloc. a shetlander, a norweigan and a swede. a norweigan and a swede. good evening. in 2019, the snp government announced the aim of

being net zero by 2045, in their own words, "five years ahead of the rest of the uk." but official numbers show the scottish government is failing on its targets to reduce green house gas emissions. a year ago the snp/green government published what it called a "just transition plan" — transition to green jobs, with a commitment to ensuring that no—one currently working with oil and gas will be left behind. 70,000 jobs in scotland are dependent on the oil and gas industry. so grangemouth is a test — one that port talbot in wales is perhaps also facing, as its blast furnace closes to make way for a greener alternative. and so will many other areas in the coming years, where carbon intensive industries dominate. kate has industry dominates grangemouth.

a port, petrochemical plant and at its heart an oil refinery. the owner, petroineos, has announced this refinery will close as early as next spring, with the loss of 400 jobs. they claim it is a necessary part of adapting to the energy transition. chris has worked here for a decade. it's an unsettling, worrying time for us. i mean, as an employee i am clearly worried about the immediate threat to my livelihood, but also has a local resident i am concerned about the impact this will have on the wider economy. contract does supply chain, but clearly the community here, and the region. there are fears industry risks leaving communities behind. history repeating the closure of the coalfields. what many talk about wanting this time is a just transition, supporting high carbon workers to find jobs in greener industries instead. a vision which is not

currently clear to everyone. the idea that somehow there's green jobs for us here today i don't recognise that, and i think for me is it and i think for me it's disappointing that the politicians have decided to go down the route there is alternative industries there when the reality is for us as workers, it is not. so i grew up on this side of grangemouth... the local green msp has suggested the closure of the refinery should be delayed while future plans for the site are discussed. as we scale down one industry we have to scale up the other one while providing training for the workers that are there as well, to transfer their skills into these new industries. we can't have a closure and a period where those workers are out ofjob, where those workers are out ofjobs, because they willjust go elsewhere. you're a green msp, some people would be quite surprised that you are suggesting extending the life of this oil refinery. this is about making sure

that we do a just transition. 400 people losing theirjobs is not a just transition. it means that they are being thrown out at the whim of the, of the owners of the site because they don't think it is profitable any more. these are people's lives and livelihoods in a time of a cost of living crisis. we need to have that plan. that plan as to what happens next is crucial for the town, for the workers, and for the rest of scotland as well. in climate terms, this is a critical time, if we want to meet the paris agreement we have to almost halve emissions by 2030. surely extending the life of any fossil fuel by even a short amount of time matters when it comes to the climate. that is why it has to be done quickly, and that is why we need everybody around the table quickly as well. this is an opportunity, at this point, to say, how are we getting to the next point and how are we going do that quickly? it is clear we can't leave it to industry, they will shut it, get up and leave.

travel 130 miles north, we find an economy where the energy transition may be even more keenly felt. scotland's oil capital, aberdeen. scotland has almost 70,000 people working directly or indirectly in the oil and gas sector and the industry supports the wider economy too. any sudden closures could be devastating. some companies are embracing a different future. balmoral makes equipment for cables running to the offshore oil industry. but almost a decade ago, they made a plan for the future. now, 40% of their order book supports offshore wind instead. the renewable market, you know, it is going to see tremendous growth over the next 10, 15 years. so it has been relatively straightforward for you to transfer your product over to that new market. do you think every company in aberdeen is going to find it that easy? we have invested heavily in our product and r&d. the test centre underpins that, you can see for yourself,

the investment we have made here, so i think innovation will remain critical. in this transition, timing is crucial. there have already been inquiries into grangemouth�*s just transition and promises of multi—million pounds investments, including carbon those are still far from being built. i think that is the big, the elephant in the room, the scepticism that people say, everybody talks a good talk about this but when it comes down to you know, shillings and pence, that is where the failure happens. richard is a trade unionist, he sits on scotland's just transition commission, helping the country plan for this change. with an industrial strategy you can plan round what happens next and that has been a big failure of the scottish government, the failure to have that industrial plan, but we do need investment, we need to replace the jobs here and offshore, and that won't come from renewable power, because it uses a lot less staffing,

it will come from being involved in the creation of that, of that new green energy. getting this first test for scotland's just transition wrong would hold serious consequences. the worst case scenario is you grow more populism, you grow more conversations aboutjust not doing it, let's just leave everything as it is, kick the can down the road down the road, and that is when the panic, we will tip over, all of the tipping points and we will end up with unmitigated disaster. change in one form or another is coming. the challenge faced at grangemouth will be seen across the uk. can you build for the future, at the same rate you in a moment, we will hear from woon nwee—in, a climate activist with climate camp scotland. but first, i'm joined by keith brown, deputy leader of the scottish national party. good evening to both of you. keith

brown first of all. what do you say to the people who haven't prepared for the closure at the oil refinery at grangemouth. we have known the chances were it would close because it was talked about in 2022. we. chances were it would close because it was talked about in 2022.- it was talked about in 2022. we, the scottish government _ it was talked about in 2022. we, the scottish government found - it was talked about in 2022. we, the scottish government found about. it was talked about in 2022. we, the scottish government found about at| scottish government found about at the same time and there has been a just transition plan greed, what happens if you get a very sudden decision by a company, that means we have to react to that. it decision by a company, that means we have to react to that.— have to react to that. it wasn't because you — have to react to that. it wasn't because you knew— have to react to that. it wasn't because you knew the - have to react to that. it wasn't i because you knew the decision... have to react to that. it wasn't - because you knew the decision... you knew it was — because you knew the decision... you knew it was coming. _ because you knew the decision... you knew it was coming. no _ because you knew the decision. .. you knew it was coming. no i _ because you knew the decision... you knew it was coming. no i don't - because you knew the decision... you knew it was coming. no i don't think | knew it was coming. no i don't think that was true. _ knew it was coming. no i don't think that was true, if _ knew it was coming. no i don't think that was true, if you _ knew it was coming. no i don't think that was true, if you ask _ knew it was coming. no i don't think that was true, if you ask the - knew it was coming. no i don't think that was true, if you ask the uk - that was true, if you ask the uk government, they said there were discussions on o going. 50 government, they said there were discussions on o going.— government, they said there were discussions on o going. so the radar was off. discussions on o going. so the radar was off- can — discussions on o going. so the radar was off- can i _ discussions on o going. so the radar was off. can i check— discussions on o going. so the radar was off. can i check with _ discussions on o going. so the radar was off. can i check with you, - was off. can i check with you, people have been talking about grangemouth for a while. do you admit the radar was off. you might have known about the decision the same day as the employees but you knew there was a distinct possible it was coming. for knew there was a distinct possible it was coming-— knew there was a distinct possible it was coming. for some time and i had discussion _ it was coming. for some time and i had discussion the _ it was coming. for some time and i had discussion the ineos _ it was coming. for some time and i had discussion the ineos and - it was coming. for some time and i had discussion the ineos and the l it was coming. for some time and i l had discussion the ineos and the uk government previously round that but

it wasn't a decision until which heard on the same day, and it is also true to say it is not the complete closureer, there will be continuing facilities at grangemouth. we have our own plan and there will a new one created by the spring by the scottish government for grangemouth particular. we government for grangemouth particular-— government for grangemouth articular. ~ . ., ~ ., ., particular. we are talking about no loss of jobs. _ particular. we are talking about no loss of jobs. we — particular. we are talking about no loss of jobs, we were _ particular. we are talking about no loss of jobs, we were talking - particular. we are talking about no| loss of jobs, we were talking about loss ofjobs, we were talking about 400. loss of “obs, we were talking about 400. g ., , , loss of “obs, we were talking about 400. jobs may go but if you look what the scottish _ 400. jobs may go but if you look what the scottish government i 400. jobs may go but if you look| what the scottish government did when there was an downturn in the oil price, we put things in place so people could transfer to otherjobs so that kind of thing as well as the development of alternative sources of energy so they should replace those jobs #12k3w4r6789 so snp and greens are in the government together, you heard there that gillian mckay who is the local msp said it is not a just transition he wants it delayed, do you want it delayed too? yes, think the more time we have to put in place the things we have to do make sure

people can transition to otherjobs is important. the contrast, wejust approved in the scottish parliament, approved in the scottish parliament, a pardon for miners in the miners' strike, they were thrown on the scrap heap. we want toic many sure that doesn't happen again. if scrap heap. we want toic many sure that doesn't happen again.- that doesn't happen again. if that is a guarantee — that doesn't happen again. if that is a guarantee is _ that doesn't happen again. if that is a guarantee is there _ that doesn't happen again. if that is a guarantee is there a - that doesn't happen again. if that is a guarantee is there a danger l is a guarantee is there a danger they should never have said that scotland would be net zeroed by 2045, five years ahead of the uk government. you have promised something you might not deliver. if you look at it now, since 1990 we have halved the number of emission, the scottish government we are conconfident it will be down. so we have a situation, _ conconfident it will be down. so we have a situation, the _ conconfident it will be down. so we have a situation, the massive - have a situation, the massive majority, of the jobs have a situation, the massive majority, of thejobs in have a situation, the massive majority, of the jobs in the oil and gas industry and all the surrounding jobs are in aberdeen, so many of the 70,000 jobs are you telling me you have a plan for what is going to happen in the north east of scotland with have a just transition plan which we have consulted on widely. how manyjobs because we know, we know the green energy situation

won't consulate the same jobs. 500 won't consulate the same “obs. 500 million has won't consulate the same jobs. “3:2: million has been won't consulate the same jobs. “3:22 million has been set won't consulate the same jobs. lj;22 million has been set aside won't consulate the same jobs. lj22 million has been set aside by the scottish government. where is the uk, they have taken £300 billion since the �*70s, surely they should be contributing as much to make sure people don't lose theirjobs and they have alternatives. let people don't lose their 'obs and they have alternatives._ people don't lose their 'obs and they have alternatives. let me turn to covid, the _ they have alternatives. let me turn to covid, the big — they have alternatives. let me turn to covid, the big revelation - they have alternatives. let me turn to covid, the big revelation today i to covid, the big revelation today was that nicola sturgeon deleted all her texts and whatsapp, why did she do thati her texts and whatsapp, why did she do than . her texts and whatsapp, why did she do tha i ., ., , , her texts and whatsapp, why did she do than ., ., , , . ., do that i am not sure she did. what i have heard _ do that i am not sure she did. what i have heard today, _ do that i am not sure she did. what i have heard today, who _ do that i am not sure she did. what i have heard today, who deleted . i have heard today, who deleted them, floor auto let'ses set up by them, floor auto let'ses set up by the civil servant, we won't know until we hearfrom nicola sturgeon. if it was the first, if it was the first minister she said at a press conference in august 2021 she would never do that, she misled the bereaved families and if they were auto deleted, she didn't know that. we better wait to hear what she

says, one of the most important things in the scottish government, i speakfrom things in the scottish government, i speak from recent experience we don't take decisions by whatsapp, it is done by officials submitting submissions to minister, it is recorded, all the details, it is not done by whatsapp in scotland. flan recorded, all the details, it is not done by whatsapp in scotland. can i turn now to — done by whatsapp in scotland. can i turn now to you _ done by whatsapp in scotland. can i turn now to you woon. _ done by whatsapp in scotland. can i turn now to you woon. let _ done by whatsapp in scotland. can i turn now to you woon. let us talk about grangemouth first, should, what should happen? it should close, that is not what _ what should happen? it should close, that is not what is _ what should happen? it should close, that is not what is happening, - what should happen? it should close, that is not what is happening, what i that is not what is happening, what climate _ that is not what is happening, what climate activists like me and even across _ climate activists like me and even across scotland wants is we phase out oil _ across scotland wants is we phase out oil and — across scotland wants is we phase out oil and gas as quickly as possible _ out oil and gas as quickly as possible but we project the jobs, what _ possible but we project the jobs, what is _ possible but we project the jobs, what is happening is is opposite, we are keeping — what is happening is is opposite, we are keeping oil and gas, we are building— are keeping oil and gas, we are building new terminals to import more _ building new terminals to import more petrol, more oil. at more petrol, more oil. git grangemouth. more petrol, more oil. at grangemouth. at - more petrol, more oil. at - grangemouth. at grangemouth but more petrol, more oil. at _ grangemouth. at grangemouth but we are losin: grangemouth. at grangemouth but we are losing 400 — grangemouth. at grangemouth but we are losing 400 jobs, _ grangemouth. at grangemouth but we are losing 400 jobs, but _ grangemouth. at grangemouth but we are losing 400 jobs, but you _ grangemouth. at grangemouth but we are losing 400 jobs, but you don't - are losing 400 jobs, but you don't are losing 400 “obs, but you don't believe that — are losing 400 jobs, but you don't believe that there should - are losing 400 jobs, but you don't believe that there should be - are losing 400 jobs, but you don't believe that there should be that i believe that there should be that importing of gas and oil, you don't. however, the green msp said let us

delay because you don't have the a plan so you are at odds. {iii delay because you don't have the a plan so you are at odds. of course, we are not — plan so you are at odds. of course, we are not answering _ plan so you are at odds. of course, we are not answering to the - plan so you are at odds. of course, we are not answering to the green| we are not answering to the green party. _ we are not answering to the green party. we — we are not answering to the green party, we can say something more, the green _ party, we can say something more, the green party is in government and has to— the green party is in government and has to do— the green party is in government and has to do compromise stuff, we know — has to do compromise stuff, we know... , has to do compromise stuff, we know- - -- we _ has to do compromise stuff, we know. . .- we know - has to do compromise stuff, we know. . .- we know the l has to do compromise stuff, we - know. . .- we know the climate know... does it? we know the climate emeruen know... does it? we know the climate emergency it — know... does it? we know the climate emergency it is _ know... does it? we know the climate emergency it is getting _ know... does it? we know the climate emergency it is getting worse - know... does it? we know the climate emergency it is getting worse by - know... does it? we know the climate emergency it is getting worse by the l emergency it is getting worse by the year and _ emergency it is getting worse by the year and now, we are not moving further— year and now, we are not moving further at — year and now, we are not moving further at all because we are still importing — further at all because we are still importing fracked gas, we are importing fracked gas, we are importing petrol so we don't have a decrease _ importing petrol so we don't have a decrease in— importing petrol so we don't have a decrease in emissions but we are losing _ decrease in emissions but we are losing 400 — decrease in emissions but we are losing 400 jobs in one of the most deprived _ losing 400 jobs in one of the most deprived communities in scotland. the debate about whether it's a just transition _ the debate about whether it's a just transition is — the debate about whether it's a just transition is pointless because it not a _ transition is pointless because it not a transition away from fossil fuels _ not a transition away from fossil fuels. �* , ., ., ., not a transition away from fossil fuels. �* ., ., , fuels. but you are glad the company is shuttini fuels. but you are glad the company is shutting it — fuels. but you are glad the company is shutting it down. _ fuels. but you are glad the company is shutting it down. no, _ fuels. but you are glad the company is shutting it down. no, because - fuels. but you are glad the company is shutting it down. no, because it | is shutting it down. no, because it is shutting it down. no, because it is not shutting _ is shutting it down. no, because it is not shutting it _ is shutting it down. no, because it is not shutting it down. _ is shutting it down. no, because it is not shutting it down. shutting . is not shutting it down. shutting down the oil _ is not shutting it down. shutting down the oil refinery. _ is not shutting it down. shutting down the oil refinery. the - is not shutting it down. shutting down the oil refinery. the oil- down the oil refinery. the oil refinery needs _ down the oil refinery. the oil refinery needs to _ down the oil refinery. the oil refinery needs to go - down the oil refinery. the oil refinery needs to go but - down the oil refinery. the oil refinery needs to go but in l down the oil refinery. the oil refinery needs to go but in a | down the oil refinery. the oil- refinery needs to go but in a way the workers can keep theirjobs an transition — the workers can keep theirjobs an transition into a different role, they— transition into a different role, they need _ transition into a different role, they need to have theirjobs protected. they need to explore the profits _ protected. they need to explore the profits from the company need to be

used to— profits from the company need to be used to explore a different strategy. richard hardy said in the film he is in the transition team and he is also a trade unionist. and he was essentially saying the scottish government does not have an industrial strategy for a post—dirty fuel future. i industrial strategy for a post-dirty fuel future. , industrial strategy for a post-dirty fuel future-— fuel future. i wish the scottish government — fuel future. i wish the scottish government and _ fuel future. i wish the scottish government and the _ fuel future. i wish the scottish. government and the committee fuel future. i wish the scottish - government and the committee would stop trusting companies like in the us who— stop trusting companies like in the us who do— stop trusting companies like in the us who do not show up to their meetings and they are laughing at the scottish government and they are ambushing _ the scottish government and they are ambushing the scottish government like they— ambushing the scottish government like they want. —— in the us. we should — like they want. —— in the us. we should stop _ like they want. —— in the us. we should stop trusting fossil fuel companies and owners like jim ratcliffe — companies and owners like jim ratcliffe to do the right thing because we know they don't. —— ineos _ because we know they don't. —— ineos this _ because we know they don't. —— ineos this is _ because we know they don't. —— ineos. this is a corporate attack, that is— ineos. this is a corporate attack, that is what— ineos. this is a corporate attack, that is what it is.— that is what it is. let's be clear, do you accept — that is what it is. let's be clear, do you accept there is _ that is what it is. let's be clear, do you accept there is never - that is what it is. let's be clear, i do you accept there is never going to be the same amount of green jobs as there are essentially dirty energy jobs? as there are essentially dirty energyjobs? i as there are essentially dirty energyjobs?— as there are essentially dirty energy jobs?— as there are essentially dirty eneri “obs? ., �* ~ ., �*, energy “obs? i don't think that's true, energy jobs? i don't think that's true, dirty _ energy jobs? i don't think that's true. dirty energy _ energy jobs? i don't think that's true, dirty energy jobs - energy jobs? i don't think that's true, dirty energy jobs are - energy jobs? i don't think that's true, dirty energy jobs are not l true, dirty energyjobs are not creating —

true, dirty energyjobs are not creating that manyjobs. you can have _ creating that manyjobs. you can have crate —— quite a lot ofjobs and green — have crate —— quite a lot ofjobs and green construction and lots more 'obs and green construction and lots more jobs in _ and green construction and lots more jobs in green energy sources, you can explore — jobs in green energy sources, you can explore different types ofjobs that fit _ can explore different types ofjobs that fit grangemouth quite well. there _ that fit grangemouth quite well. there are — that fit grangemouth quite well. there are studies about how facilities _ there are studies about how facilities can be used for recycling, how it can be used, use the knowledge of the workforce on plastic— the knowledge of the workforce on plastic production to create better ways for— plastic production to create better ways for the world where scotland can lead — ways for the world where scotland can lead. but the opposite of that is happening and the scottish government needs to wake up. i agree with richard _ government needs to wake up. i agree with richard there is no strategy and the — with richard there is no strategy and the scottish government needs to wake up _ and the scottish government needs to wake up and not take ineos seriously any more _ wake up and not take ineos seriously an more. . ~' wake up and not take ineos seriously an more. ., ,, i. wake up and not take ineos seriously an more. ., «i , . any more. thank you both very much indeed. today at the post office inquiry, fujitsu's europe boss, paul patterson, said his staff knew of bugs in the horizon system as far back as 1999, and admitted that the fact that known glitches were not used in witness statements used to prosecute subpostmasters as "shameful".

of the prosecutions in scotland in 2020, the scottish criminal cases review commission identified 73 potential victims, but surprisingly, and sadly, only 16 have come forward. and we know that there are others here and throughout the uk who were never prosecuted, but who lost everything — including their physical and mental health and, sometimes, theirfamily, and who are still paying the debts to either banks, or hmrc or other family members. tonight, we'rejoined by two former subpostmasters who were not prosecuted, but whose lives were devastated. louise dar ran a post office in lenzie, near glasgow, and peter worsfold ran one in inverness. they are both still in debt. when peter was given just a few hours to pay the post office the money they were demanding from him, he turned to his motherfor help. earlier today, newsnight spoke to her. he said, "they're coming in and they're taking

the post office away," because, he said, "i'm worried that they'll take my children away." so i said, "no, they won't, peter, because i'll come up there, if necessary." "it's very hard, mum," he said, "they could put me in prison." they'd accused his eldest daughter. because she was 17 then, i think, and she worked for him in the post office sometimes. it was just... it was just horrible. he's just had a horrible life. he couldn't get a job because they said he was a criminal. i never lost trust in him, i neverwould. i wouldn't even now. and even now, he's got it hard. i mean, he's 79, and he's not had any life. all he's had is worry, all his life, since he took over the post office.

all of there. —— that was 0liver. peterjoins us now, with louise dar. had it not been for your mother would you have made it or would it have been destitution? if would you have made it or would it have been destitution?— would you have made it or would it have been destitution? if it had not been for my — have been destitution? if it had not been for my mother, _ have been destitution? if it had not been for my mother, i _ have been destitution? if it had not been for my mother, i would - have been destitution? if it had not i been for my mother, i would probably have been convicted and possibly sent to jail. and being a single parent with three children, that is the last thing i wanted to happen. so she made sure you would not go to jail. what you had done, i am jumping forward now, you ended up admitting to something you didn't do. , ., ., ., ., ., do. yes, i had to admit to it and -a the do. yes, i had to admit to it and pay the money and _ do. yes, i had to admit to it and pay the money and then they i pay the money and then they would drop the charges. that was what they forced me to do. you drop the charges. that was what they forced me to do.— forced me to do. you cashed 1,500 men's wagers _ forced me to do. you cashed 1,500 men's wagers every _ forced me to do. you cashed 1,500 men's wagers every single - forced me to do. you cashed 1,500 men's wagers every single week i forced me to do. you cashed 1,500 men's wagers every single week in | men's wagers every single week in the north of scotland can make you knew your arithmetic. —— wages. you knew your arithmetic. —— wages. you knew there was something wrong, what

did you think was happening? everything went fine when we were doing it on paper. we used to write in pencil and think. but once horizon came in, you had nowhere to look for any discrepancies. so horizon came in, you had nowhere to look for any discrepancies.— look for any discrepancies. so once it was in the _ look for any discrepancies. so once it was in the system, _ look for any discrepancies. so once it was in the system, you - look for any discrepancies. so once it was in the system, you couldn't. it was in the system, you couldn't go back and double—check it is to mark no, there was no way of delving in to the computer to find. so when this was happening, you knew that it wasn't you so you started to mistrust people, your own workers? yes, i had two assistants at the time and it was going £100 a week and then it went up to £1000 a week. i knew it wasn't me, so ijust got rid of the two assistants and i did it myself. but that didn't alter. what did you feel about sacking them now? ., ., , ., ., , what did you feel about sacking them now? ., ., , ., ., now? no, i realise that was nothing to do with them _ now? no, i realise that was nothing to do with them at _ now? no, i realise that was nothing to do with them at all. _ now? no, i realise that was nothing to do with them at all. it _ now? no, i realise that was nothing to do with them at all. it was i now? no, i realise that was nothing to do with them at all. it was down | to do with them at all. it was down to do with them at all. it was down to the computer system.—

to the computer system. louise, it means between — to the computer system. louise, it means between the _ to the computer system. louise, it means between the two _ to the computer system. louise, it means between the two of- to the computer system. louise, it means between the two of you, i to the computer system. louise, it| means between the two of you, you lost almost £100,000. you know, you had young children, you and your husband in the post office at lenzie. what happened? its, husband in the post office at lenzie. what happened? a new new it. it was an absolute _ lenzie. what happened? a new new it. it was an absolute disaster— lenzie. what happened? a new new it. it was an absolute disaster from - lenzie. what happened? a new new it. it was an absolute disaster from day i it was an absolute disaster from day one, it was an absolute disaster from day one. to _ it was an absolute disaster from day one. to be _ it was an absolute disaster from day one, to be honest. we had a shot the two years— one, to be honest. we had a shot the two years before we took on the post office _ two years before we took on the post office and _ two years before we took on the post office and in the first week of setup, — office and in the first week of setup, we were accused of stealing £977~ _ setup, we were accused of stealing £977~ ln _ setup, we were accused of stealing £977. , «i ., , £977. in the first week, was it in order to? _ £977. in the first week, was it in order to? before _ £977. in the first week, was it in order to? before the auditor- £977. in the first week, was it in | order to? before the auditor left. an auditor _ order to? before the auditor left. an auditor from _ order to? before the auditor left. an auditor from the _ order to? before the auditor left. an auditor from the post - order to? before the auditor left. an auditor from the post office. | order to? before the auditor left. i an auditor from the post office. and she was supposed to be setting up the branch. and she couldn't set it up the branch. and she couldn't set it up correctly— the branch. and she couldn't set it up correctly and she couldn't audit her own— up correctly and she couldn't audit her own work to work out what she had done — her own work to work out what she had done. and iso my husband in the first week— had done. and iso my husband in the first week if _ had done. and iso my husband in the first week if we had stolen the money, — first week if we had stolen the money, i_ first week if we had stolen the money, i was with him 100% of the time _ money, i was with him 100% of the time they— money, i was with him 100% of the time. they eventually blamed it on

fujitsu _ time. they eventually blamed it on fujitsu and — time. they eventually blamed it on fujitsu and a power outage, named it on all— fujitsu and a power outage, named it on all sorts— fujitsu and a power outage, named it on all sorts of things. and eventually claimed she had resolved the problem and we gave her a gift and a _ the problem and we gave her a gift and a card — the problem and we gave her a gift and a card to say thank you. it was not until— and a card to say thank you. it was not until the — and a card to say thank you. it was not until the first month of the audit— not until the first month of the audit we — not until the first month of the audit we found she had swept it under— audit we found she had swept it under the — audit we found she had swept it under the carpet and put it in a different— under the carpet and put it in a different account. did under the carpet and put it in a different account. did you start to feel thinis different account. did you start to feel things were _ different account. did you start to feel things were out _ different account. did you start to feel things were out of— different account. did you start to feel things were out of your i feel things were out of your control? {lat feel things were out of your control? . ., , , ., control? of course. every day, it was the feeling _ control? of course. every day, it was the feeling of _ control? of course. every day, it was the feeling of dread - control? of course. every day, it was the feeling of dread having l control? of course. every day, it. was the feeling of dread having to try to _ was the feeling of dread having to try to balance and you were thinking, _ try to balance and you were thinking, ok, ican try to balance and you were thinking, ok, i can do this. i knew it wasnt— thinking, ok, i can do this. i knew it wasn't me. _ thinking, ok, i can do this. i knew it wasn't me, but you couldn't identify— it wasn't me, but you couldn't identify anything else. you just had to keep _ identify anything else. you just had to keep working on it and trying to make _ to keep working on it and trying to make it _ to keep working on it and trying to make it balance. but i don't think it ever_ make it balance. but i don't think it ever balanced to the penny. ever, and any— it ever balanced to the penny. ever, and any day — it ever balanced to the penny. ever, and any day. so it ever balanced to the penny. ever, and any day-— and any day. so you are living with exactly that _ and any day. so you are living with exactly that kind _ and any day. so you are living with exactly that kind of _ and any day. so you are living with exactly that kind of stress - and any day. so you are living with exactly that kind of stress as i and any day. so you are living withj exactly that kind of stress as many seem to be disappearing in front of your eyes. seem to be disappearing in front of our e es. , , ~i seem to be disappearing in front of our e es. , , «i ., , your eyes. yes, every week. you put mone in your eyes. yes, every week. you put money in so _ your eyes. yes, every week. you put money in so you — your eyes. yes, every week. you put money in so you could _ your eyes. yes, every week. you put money in so you could open - your eyes. yes, every week. you put money in so you could open up i your eyes. yes, every week. you put money in so you could open up the l money in so you could open up the next day. otherwise, you could not trade. �* ., , ., ., .,

trade. but did either of you at that oint trade. but did either of you at that point when — trade. but did either of you at that point when you — trade. but did either of you at that point when you are _ trade. but did either of you at that point when you are starting - trade. but did either of you at that point when you are starting out i trade. but did either of you at that point when you are starting out in | point when you are starting out in the first six months and the first year, did you think it was happening to anyone else?— year, did you think it was happening to anyone else? when we phoned the helline, it to anyone else? when we phoned the helpline. it was _ to anyone else? when we phoned the helpline, it was only _ to anyone else? when we phoned the helpline, it was only our _ to anyone else? when we phoned the helpline, it was only our problem. i helpline, it was only our problem. it wasn't a problem with anybody else. that is what they told us. yes, i think that is what was more shocking _ yes, i think that is what was more shocking to— yes, i think that is what was more shocking to hear we had contacted solicitors — shocking to hear we had contacted solicitors and we met other people that had _ solicitors and we met other people that had the same issues. and it was quite _ that had the same issues. and it was quite chilling to hear that they had told us, _ quite chilling to hear that they had told us, oh, it is only you, it is not _ told us, oh, it is only you, it is not happening to anyone else. i had asked _ not happening to anyone else. i had asked for— not happening to anyone else. i had asked for support many, many times to say, _ asked for support many, many times to say, if— asked for support many, many times to say, if it _ asked for support many, many times to say, if it is — asked for support many, many times to say, if it is something i am doing. — to say, if it is something i am doing. just _ to say, if it is something i am doing, just tell me and show me. what _ doing, just tell me and show me. what was — doing, just tell me and show me. what was happening around you in your life at this point? the what was happening around you in your life at this point?— your life at this point? the shop was rapidly _ your life at this point? the shop was rapidly going _ your life at this point? the shop was rapidly going downhill. i your life at this point? the shop was rapidly going downhill. myl was rapidly going downhill. my husband — was rapidly going downhill. my husband and i started it up as a new shop _ husband and i started it up as a new shop and we — husband and i started it up as a new shop and we built it up in the village — shop and we built it up in the village -- _ shop and we built it up in the village —— and it was in the village i village —— and it was in the village i had _ village —— and it was in the village i had grown—up in. it was great, we loved _ i had grown—up in. it was great, we loved it— i had grown—up in. it was great, we loved it and — i had grown—up in. it was great, we loved it and it — i had grown—up in. it was great, we loved it and it was flexible for the family _

loved it and it was flexible for the family. and before you know it, you put money— family. and before you know it, you put money in — family. and before you know it, you put money in thinking it would come to the _ put money in thinking it would come to the surface, small amounts here and there _ to the surface, small amounts here and there and then large amounts. it -ot and there and then large amounts. it got to— and there and then large amounts. it got to the _ and there and then large amounts. it got to the point it was going over our heads — got to the point it was going over our heads. �* , got to the point it was going over our heads-— got to the point it was going over our heads. �* , ., , ' ~ our heads. peter's mother is 97. are our heads. peter's mother is 97. are ou still our heads. peter's mother is 97. are you still paying _ our heads. peter's mother is 97. are you still paying her _ our heads. peter's mother is 97. are you still paying her back? _ our heads. peter's mother is 97. are you still paying her back? you i our heads. peter's mother is 97. are you still paying her back? you are i you still paying her back? you are still paying your dad back? all still paying your dad back? all these years later. and - still paying your dad back? all these years later. and this i still paying your dad back? all these years later. and this is. these years later. and this is money ou should these years later. and this is money you should never _ these years later. and this is money you should never have _ these years later. and this is money you should never have to _ these years later. and this is money you should never have to pay i these years later. and this is money| you should never have to pay anyone back. , .,. , you should never have to pay anyone back. , , ., , you should never have to pay anyone back. , ., . , ., , back. yes, exactly. the worst part is we have — back. yes, exactly. the worst part is we have won _ back. yes, exactly. the worst part is we have won the _ back. yes, exactly. the worst part is we have won the case _ back. yes, exactly. the worst part is we have won the case time i back. yes, exactly. the worst part is we have won the case time and | is we have won the case time and time _ is we have won the case time and time again. — is we have won the case time and time again, but we haven't really. we have _ time again, but we haven't really. we have not got the compensation gorge _ we have not got the compensation gorge just— we have not got the compensation gorge just the redress to pay off these _ gorge just the redress to pay off these debts and try and move on. -- or 'ust these debts and try and move on. orjust the these debts and try and move on. -- orjust the redress. today in the inquiry, the europe boss of fujitsu admitted horizon had known about the glitches in horizon in 1999. what admitted horizon had known about the glitches in horizon in 1999.— glitches in horizon in 1999. what do ou make glitches in horizon in 1999. what do you make of — glitches in horizon in 1999. what do you make of that? _ glitches in horizon in 1999. what do you make of that? the _ glitches in horizon in 1999. what do you make of that? the kids - glitches in horizon in 1999. what do you make of that? the kids of i glitches in horizon in 1999. what do you make of that? the kids of left l you make of that? the kids of left school _ you make of that? the kids of left school it— you make of that? the kids of left school it is— you make of that? the kids of left school. it is that long we have

known — school. it is that long we have known about this. i was involved in the litigation as well. through the inquiry, _ the litigation as well. through the inquiry, there is no way people have not known — inquiry, there is no way people have not known it— inquiry, there is no way people have not known. it has taken one person to break— not known. it has taken one person to break the — not known. it has taken one person to break the silence. hopefully, it will make — to break the silence. hopefully, it will make other people speak, but they will— will make other people speak, but they will be worried about if they will be _ they will be worried about if they will be done criminally. it�*s will be done criminally. it's interesting _ will be done criminally. it�*s interesting because in scotland, neither of you was prosecuted. in scotland, the scottish criminal cases review commission identified more than 70 people they thought were victims in only 16 have come forward. why is that, louise? people have probably _ forward. why is that, louise? people have probably run _ forward. why is that, louise? people have probably run out _ forward. why is that, louise? people have probably run out of _ forward. why is that, louise? people have probably run out of steam i forward. why is that, louise? people have probably run out of steam and l have probably run out of steam and probably— have probably run out of steam and probably cannot face bringing it up again— probably cannot face bringing it up again and — probably cannot face bringing it up again and again and again. i'm surprised— again and again and again. i'm surprised i_ again and again and again. i'm surprised i am still going, to be honest — surprised i am still going, to be honest. because you just think right, — honest. because you just think right, let's move on from this. but i right, let's move on from this. but i have _ right, let's move on from this. but i have always got that hope that we will get _ i have always got that hope that we will get there and i have got that feeling _ will get there and i have got that feeling now that we will. i have had it many— feeling now that we will. i have had it many times before through the group _ it many times before through the group litigation order and through the inquiry and things. hopefully, since _ the inquiry and things. hopefully, since the — the inquiry and things. hopefully, since the drama with alan bates that

had produced this, hopefully it is out there — had produced this, hopefully it is out there now.— out there now. what about you? because you are _ out there now. what about you? because you are an _ out there now. what about you? because you are an executive i out there now. what about you? | because you are an executive and then a subpostmaster and then a taxi driver. what is happening now and you your head above water and keeping your house now? ila. you your head above water and keeping your house now? no, nowl have retired — keeping your house now? no, nowl have retired because _ keeping your house now? no, nowl have retired because of _ keeping your house now? no, nowl have retired because of covid. i keeping your house now? no, nowl have retired because of covid. my . have retired because of covid. my children paid off my mortgage for me, which helps. but my son still lives with me. if he was to move out, i would have to sell my house. since 2,000, i have not been able to do any repairs or additions to the house and it is just gradually getting dilapidated. home house and it isjust gradually getting dilapidated. how do you think, ou getting dilapidated. how do you think, you heard _ getting dilapidated. how do you think, you heard your _ getting dilapidated. how do you think, you heard your mother. getting dilapidated. how do you i think, you heard your mother saying how much it had impacted your life, but what do you think the impact has beenin but what do you think the impact has been in your life? it but what do you think the impact has been in your life?— been in your life? it has taken away m life. i been in your life? it has taken away my life- i mean. — been in your life? it has taken away my life. i mean, i— been in your life? it has taken away my life. i mean, i live _ been in your life? it has taken away my life. i mean, i live on _ been in your life? it has taken away my life. i mean, i live on the i been in your life? it has taken away my life. i mean, i live on the old i my life. i mean, i live on the old age pension, which is not enough.

25% of that goes on council tax before you even start and it is just not enough to live on. the before you even start and it is 'ust not enough to live omi before you even start and it is 'ust not enough to live on. the impact on our not enough to live on. the impact on your family's — not enough to live on. the impact on your family's life, _ not enough to live on. the impact on your family's life, louise? _ not enough to live on. the impact on your family's life, louise? oh, i not enough to live on. the impact on your family's life, louise? oh, for. your family's life, louise? oh, for 'ust your family's life, louise? oh, for just years — your family's life, louise? oh, for just years -- _ your family's life, louise? oh, for just years -- oh. _ your family's life, louise? oh, for just years -- oh, just _ your family's life, louise? oh, for just years -- oh, just years i your family's life, louise? oh, for just years -- oh, just years of i just years —— oh, just years of struggles _ just years —— oh, just years of struggles. people even locally judging — struggles. people even locally judging you are not talking to you. it is judging you are not talking to you. it is only— judging you are not talking to you. it is only now people are beginning to kind _ it is only now people are beginning to kind of— it is only now people are beginning to kind of look even towards me. people _ to kind of look even towards me. people really were called towards you? people really were called towards ou? , , ., , , people really were called towards ou? _., , , ., you? oh, yes, of course. they have. my husband — you? oh, yes, of course. they have. my husband had _ you? oh, yes, of course. they have. my husband had issues _ you? oh, yes, of course. they have. my husband had issues when - you? oh, yes, of course. they have. my husband had issues when he i you? oh, yes, of course. they have. my husband had issues when he wasj you? oh, yes, of course. they have. i my husband had issues when he was in the shop _ my husband had issues when he was in the shop and _ my husband had issues when he was in the shop and i had been suspended and they— the shop and i had been suspended and they give no explanation, no signs— and they give no explanation, no signs or— and they give no explanation, no signs or nothing. so he got the trouble, — signs or nothing. so he got the trouble, he got people moaning at him and _ trouble, he got people moaning at him and all of these things. we were 'ust him and all of these things. we were just lucky— him and all of these things. we were just lucky we have stuck together and we _ just lucky we have stuck together and we are getting there. and hopefully. _ and we are getting there. and hopefully. we _ and we are getting there. and hopefully, we will. _ and we are getting there. jifjc hopefully, we will. thank you both very much indeed. glasgow is a unesco city of music, and this year is the 30th year of celtic connections, billed as europe's premierfolk,

roots and world music festival. it opened last night in the city, and in the next two—and—a—half weeks, more than 2,100 performers from all over the world will play in venues around glasgow. we leave you tonight with the nordic fiddlers bloc — a shetlander, a swede and a norwegian, who'll be in concert tomorrow night. i'll be back on monday. until then, have a good weekend. goodnight. instrumental