no stop to houthi attacks in the red sea, and israel's prime minister saying no thanks to the two—state solution the west sees as the eventual answer. netanyahu's words were unacceptable. of course the palestinian people deserve a state. but with the uk grappling with global threats... this is a question of fairness. what a farce! parliament's still arguing over migrants that come to british shores, the prime minister's plan for rwanda about to arrive in the lords. the conservative party has come together. the rwanda bill has passed. it's now time for the lords to pass this bill too. so our big question this morning — how can we protect britain at home and abroad?

defence secretary grant shapps is here to answer that question. how would yvette cooper, who wants to be labour's home secretary, manage the risk at home? and in the latest of our election year interviews, the first minister of scotland claims he knows what's going to happen. it is undoubtedly the case that keir starmer doesn't need scotland to win. he's going to be the next prime minister of the uk. how does he know? morning, morning. welcome to you, and welcome to my trio at the desk — simon reeve, intrepid explorer who's been travelling round

the world making tv for more than 20 years. lucky for some! conservative baroness nicky morgan, who was in the cabinet, and businessman, multimillionaire and philanthropist sir tom hunter. let's start with what's making the news. the bbc website is leading on the latest utterance from the israeli prime minister saying a two—state solution can't be the answer to the conflict in the middle east. the papers are a mixed bunch. the sunday mirror splashes with pictures of post office bosses partying. the sunday times sticks with that story — you can see the faces of some of the subpostasters and mistresses of the post office scandal who died before their claims were resolved — but it leads with the risk to kids from measles. the sunday express says rather boldly that high speed rail is "back on track", with reports of planned secret talks next week — let's see. the mail on sunday hasjeremy hunt, the chancellor, comparing himself to nigel lawson —

who famously cut taxes. let's have a word with our panel before we speak to the defence secretary. nicky, you are in cabinet for a long time. when you have a situation like this where tensions are visibly bubbling up in such distressing ways far from home, what does that feel like as a politician trying to grapple with it? good morninu. trying to grapple with it? good morning- i _ trying to grapple with it? good morning. i think— trying to grapple with it? good morning. i think it _ trying to grapple with it? good morning. i think it has - trying to grapple with it? good morning. i think it has a - trying to grapple with it? (emf. morning. i think it has a shadow of everything else. of course, every domestic issue is important and that is what those cabinet ministers with domestic portfolios are focused on, but you understand that the prime minister, the foreign secretary and defence secretary are very distracted by what is happening around the world because when you have that great uncertainty, everything pales into insignificance. 50 everything pales into insignificance.- everything pales into insignificance. everything pales into insiunificance. insignificance. so it casts a shadow — insignificance. so it casts a shadow. sir _ insignificance. so it casts a shadow. sir tom, - insignificance. so it casts a shadow. sir tom, you - insignificance. so it casts ai shadow. sir tom, you have

insignificance. so it casts a - shadow. sir tom, you have run lots of different businesses over many years, but when you have this sort of instability, what effect does it have? ~ , , , ., have? well, entrepreneurs 'ust have to no with have? well, entrepreneurs 'ust have to go with it. — have? well, entrepreneurs 'ust have to go with it. we * have? well, entrepreneurs 'ust have to go with it. we like _ have? well, entrepreneurs 'ust have to go with it. we like to _ have? well, entrepreneursjust have to go with it. we like to worry - to go with it. we like to worry about— to go with it. we like to worry about the _ to go with it. we like to worry about the things we can control. we have no_ about the things we can control. we have no control over these things, but it_ have no control over these things, but it seems to me that geopolitical risk in _ but it seems to me that geopolitical risk in the _ but it seems to me that geopolitical risk in the world today is the highest _ risk in the world today is the highest it's ever been in my lifetime _ highest it's ever been in my lifetime. �* , ., highest it's ever been in my lifetime-— highest it's ever been in my lifetime. �* , ., ., ., ~ lifetime. and when you are making decisions about _ lifetime. and when you are making decisions about whether _ lifetime. and when you are making decisions about whether or - lifetime. and when you are making decisions about whether or not - lifetime. and when you are making decisions about whether or not to i decisions about whether or not to invest, whether to spend money, does it cause hesitation, or if you look at what has happened to supply chains? it at what has happened to supply chains? , ,., ., ., ~ ., chains? it is something to take into consideration, _ chains? it is something to take into consideration, but _ chains? it is something to take into consideration, but again, _ chains? it is something to take into consideration, but again, business| consideration, but again, business people— consideration, but again, business people worry about the things we can controt _ people worry about the things we can control. ,, ., , ., ., ., control. simon, you have travelled to many of— control. simon, you have travelled to many of the _ control. simon, you have travelled to many of the countries _ control. simon, you have travelled to many of the countries where - control. simon, you have travelled to many of the countries where we i to many of the countries where we now see instability and causes for concern, but you were also one of the first people to write about a summer bin laden. one of the problems with all of this is that the roots of these dilemmas go back such a long time. find the roots of these dilemmas go back such a long time.— such a long time. and they haven't been addressed _ such a long time. and they haven't been addressed or _ such a long time. and they haven't been addressed or resolved. - such a long time. and they haven't been addressed or resolved. so .

such a long time. and they haven't i been addressed or resolved. so yes, it interesting — been addressed or resolved. so yes, it interesting what _ been addressed or resolved. so yes, it interesting what you _ been addressed or resolved. so yes, it interesting what you are _ been addressed or resolved. so yes, it interesting what you are saying, i it interesting what you are saying, tom _ it interesting what you are saying, tom this— it interesting what you are saying, tom this is— it interesting what you are saying, tom this is a _ it interesting what you are saying, tom. this is a very— it interesting what you are saying, tom. this is a very dangerous - tom. this is a very dangerous moment _ tom. this is a very dangerous moment. comparable, - tom. this is a very dangerous . moment. comparable, perhaps, tom. this is a very dangerous - moment. comparable, perhaps, to that period— moment. comparable, perhaps, to that period before _ moment. comparable, perhaps, to that period before the — moment. comparable, perhaps, to that period before the start _ moment. comparable, perhaps, to that period before the start of— moment. comparable, perhaps, to that period before the start of the _ moment. comparable, perhaps, to that period before the start of the first - period before the start of the first world _ period before the start of the first world war. — period before the start of the first world war, even. _ period before the start of the first world war, even. and _ period before the start of the first world war, even. and by- period before the start of the first world war, even. and by that, - period before the start of the first world war, even. and by that, i. period before the start of the first - world war, even. and by that, i mean that things _ world war, even. and by that, i mean that things could _ world war, even. and by that, i mean that things could go _ world war, even. and by that, i mean that things could go a _ world war, even. and by that, i mean that things could go a peaceful - world war, even. and by that, i mean that things could go a peaceful way i that things could go a peaceful way or there _ that things could go a peaceful way or there could _ that things could go a peaceful way or there could just _ that things could go a peaceful way or there could just be _ that things could go a peaceful way or there could just be one - that things could go a peaceful way or there could just be one small. or there could just be one small incident — or there could just be one small incident that _ or there could just be one small incident that erupts _ or there could just be one small incident that erupts all- or there could just be one small incident that erupts all of- or there could just be one small incident that erupts all of us - or there could just be one smalli incident that erupts all of us into a much _ incident that erupts all of us into a much more _ incident that erupts all of us into a much more catastrophic- incident that erupts all of us into . a much more catastrophic situation than we _ a much more catastrophic situation than we have — a much more catastrophic situation than we have now _ a much more catastrophic situation than we have now. do— a much more catastrophic situation than we have now.— a much more catastrophic situation than we have now. do you really feel that, with all — than we have now. do you really feel that, with all your— than we have now. do you really feel that, with all your experience? - that, with all your experience? well, if we look at history, we see it. well, if we look at history, we see it it _ well, if we look at history, we see it it can— well, if we look at history, we see it it can be — well, if we look at history, we see it. it can be small— well, if we look at history, we see it. it can be small incidents- well, if we look at history, we see it. it can be small incidents that. it. it can be small incidents that create _ it. it can be small incidents that create chaos _ it. it can be small incidents that create chaos. the _ it. it can be small incidents that create chaos. the first - it. it can be small incidents that create chaos. the first world i it. it can be small incidents that i create chaos. the first world war was started — create chaos. the first world war was started by— create chaos. the first world war was started by one _ create chaos. the first world war was started by one guy, - create chaos. the first world war was started by one guy, wasn't. create chaos. the first world war| was started by one guy, wasn't it, when _ was started by one guy, wasn't it, when the — was started by one guy, wasn't it, when the archduke _ was started by one guy, wasn't it, when the archduke took _ was started by one guy, wasn't it, when the archduke took a - was started by one guy, wasn't it, when the archduke took a wrong i was started by one guy, wasn't it, i when the archduke took a wrong turn and is _ when the archduke took a wrong turn and is shot — when the archduke took a wrong turn and is shot. these _ when the archduke took a wrong turn and is shot. these terrible _ when the archduke took a wrong turn and is shot. these terrible world - and is shot. these terrible world events _ and is shot. these terrible world events can — and is shot. these terrible world events can be _ and is shot. these terrible world events can be created _ and is shot. these terrible world events can be created and - and is shot. these terrible world . events can be created and sparked and is shot. these terrible world - events can be created and sparked by small— events can be created and sparked by small incidents, _ events can be created and sparked by small incidents, and _ events can be created and sparked by small incidents, and we _ events can be created and sparked by small incidents, and we have - events can be created and sparked by small incidents, and we have a - events can be created and sparked by small incidents, and we have a lot. small incidents, and we have a lot of those _ small incidents, and we have a lot of those are — small incidents, and we have a lot of those are small _ small incidents, and we have a lot of those are small incident - small incidents, and we have a lot of those are small incident is - small incidents, and we have a loti of those are small incident is under way at _ of those are small incident is under way at the — of those are small incident is under way at the moment. _ of those are small incident is under way at the moment. that— of those are small incident is under way at the moment.— of those are small incident is under way at the moment. that is what we are ttoin way at the moment. that is what we are going to — way at the moment. that is what we are going to talk— way at the moment. that is what we are going to talk to _ way at the moment. that is what we are going to talk to the _ way at the moment. that is what we are going to talk to the defence - are going to talk to the defence secretary about. last week, foreign secretary about. last week, foreign secretary david cameron told us he found it hard to remember a more dangerous world. there's no sign of peace in ukraine.

the conflict in gaza has begun to spread. iranian security forces were killed in a strike in syria yesterday. and the british and american targeting of yemen hasn't stopped the houthis attacking ships in the red sea. so what does this mean for the uk — and indeed for our defence budget? grant shapps, the defence secretary, is here. you made your first big speech as defence secretary on monday, and you want people that we are in a prewar world. for ourviewers, does that mean they should be listening to you this morning and expecting and preparing themselves for more conflicts in the years to come? actually, as your panel were just saying, we are clearly living in a far more complex world. the united nations has just said that last year was the year with the most conflicts since the second world war. the

point i was making, without wanting to frighten anyone or raise concerns which are unwarranted, because i don't think that is a good approach, is that we need to be ready. we need to understand the era in which we are living, where both states and more irrational ones like iran and north korea, and non—state actors, the houthis, who have been active in the houthis, who have been active in the red sea, where i was last week to thank our people on hms diamond, and many other groups who we would have thought in the first part of the century where the non—state actors joining together and using more sophisticated weapons. all of that combines two or more dangerous world. find that combines two or more dangerous world. �* �* , that combines two or more dangerous world. . �* , ., , world. and it's not 'ust in the middle east, h world. and it's not 'ust in the middle east, it _ world. and it's not 'ust in the middle east, it is h world. and it's notjust in the middle east, it is also - world. and it's notjust in the middle east, it is also of - world. and it's notjust in the i middle east, it is also of course the threat from russia. i would like to show people what one of the military chief said. rob bauer from nato says we have to realise it's

not a given that we are in peace and we are preparing for a conflict with russia. the uk is a vital part of nato �*s that are you preparing our horses for a conflict with russia? we actually have an operation that i announced in that speech on monday which is in europe to practise what we need to do if there were further conflicts in europe. that is called steadfast defender and it is 40,000 personnel of which we are supplying 40% of the ground force, 50% overall. so the uk is leading 31 other nations in that action. that is because, as nato says, we need to be prepared. i should say, we always exercise with other nations. this is the largest we have done because putin represents a clear and present danger. putin represents a clear and present danter. ., , ' ., danger. that is different from sa int danger. that is different from saying we _ danger. that is different from saying we have _ danger. that is different from saying we have to _ danger. that is different from saying we have to be - danger. that is different from i saying we have to be prepared. danger. that is different from - saying we have to be prepared. he said, we are preparing. you are

carrying out the biggest exercise in a long time of its kind. so how would you assess the chances of some further incursion on eastern europe? we know there are worries about putin, but can you explain how likely that is?— likely that is? firstly, this is tartl likely that is? firstly, this is partly still — likely that is? firstly, this is partly still in _ likely that is? firstly, this is partly still in the _ likely that is? firstly, this is partly still in the west's - likely that is? firstly, this is i partly still in the west's hands. likely that is? firstly, this is - partly still in the west's hands. we saw putin invade. he has been pushed back from 50% of the land he took in ukraine, in no small part because britain took the leading role in providing training, anti—tank missiles, tanks, long—range weapons. we did things about it and the week before last, the prime minister announced the biggest ever package to ukraine to help. so the answer your question in part is that it depends how we deal with the current threat. but depends how we deal with the current threat. �* ~' ., depends how we deal with the current threat. �* ,, ., , , threat. but we know the biggest source of funding _ threat. but we know the biggest source of funding from - threat. but we know the biggest source of funding from the - threat. but we know the biggest source of funding from the us l threat. but we know the biggest i source of funding from the us has been drying up and goodness knows what will happen politically there.

could potentially disappear and your counterpart in germany, the german defence minister, suggests that within five years, there might be conflict in russia. mt; within five years, there might be conflict in russia. my counterpart in russia echoed _ conflict in russia. my counterpart in russia echoed the _ conflict in russia. my counterpart in russia echoed the part - conflict in russia. my counterpart in russia echoed the part of- conflict in russia. my counterpart in russia echoed the part of my i in russia echoed the part of my speech where i said that in the next few years, there are a series of concerns including nation and non—state actors, which could create bigger problems. but this is still in our hands. britain has led the way with the £2.5 billion package and the security and cooperation agreement with president zelensky and ukraine. now, notjust america, that europe needs to step up and do their part to make sure ukraine can continue to defend itself. let’s continue to defend itself. let's talk about _ continue to defend itself. let's talk about the _ continue to defend itself. let's talk about the money. - continue to defend itself. let's talk about the money. all - continue to defend itself. let's talk about the money. all of i continue to defend itself. let's talk about the money. all of the things you want to do to protect this country and play britain's part around the world are very expensive. we spend more than £50 billion a

year on defence already and the conservatives have long made a commitment to increase the amount to 2.5% of gdp. when will you hit that target? you have said it is an aspiration, but if the threats are aspiration, but if the threats are as serious as you say today, can you give people a commitment on when you will hit that target? brute give people a commitment on when you will hit that target?— will hit that target? we have always said we will do _ will hit that target? we have always said we will do it _ will hit that target? we have always said we will do it when _ will hit that target? we have always said we will do it when economic. said we will do it when economic conditions allow. we have turned the corner, thanks to some of the difficult decisions we have been making, with inflation coming down, growth in the economy to the point where we have started to see expenditure on defence, amongst other things, expenditure on defence, amongst otherthings, rise. it is comfortably above 2.5%. we are in a minority of nato countries who spend more than 2.5%. in terms of timing, as soon as the economic conditions allow, we look forward to making progress on that. but

allow, we look forward to making progress on that.— allow, we look forward to making progress on that. but can you give --eole a progress on that. but can you give people a date? — progress on that. but can you give people a date? to _ progress on that. but can you give people a date? to govern - progress on that. but can you give people a date? to govern is - progress on that. but can you give people a date? to govern is to - people a date? to govern is to choose. it's a political choice as to what you spend money on. it would be more than £10 billion to get up to 2.5% of gdp, but if the threat is evolving as seriously as you claim, is it credible to say that while not giving people a firm commitment on when you will hit that target? the tra'ecto when you will hit that target? the trajectory is _ when you will hit that target? tie: trajectory is already upwards. i have a lot more money to spend, £288 billion in the next decade on equipment, for example. you can only increase the budget at a certain rate because even if i had 2.5% tomorrow, you wouldn't be able to spend it tomorrow. i can't give you the exact date because we have always said it is as the economic conditions allow, but we are working to a plan. labour would not be able to a plan. labour would not be able to say when they would do this, because they don't have a plan. but our viewers will hear you saying,

take this seriously, but i can't tell you when you are going to get the money. there is a tension there. there is also a question of capability. yesterday, many of our viewers will have seen, we saw two british navy ships crash into each other in a court in bahrain. that is a pretty embarrassing thing to happen and it is embarrassing for our allies to see on the world stage. these were the ships on a happier day on screen now. how did that happen? the happier day on screen now. how did that happen?— that happen? the answer is, i don't know. that happen? the answer is, i don't know- they — that happen? the answer is, i don't know- they are _ that happen? the answer is, i don't know. they are investigating. - know. they are investigating. accidents sometimes happen at sea, as they do in the air when there is an aviation accident. we allow the authorities to investigate. the same thing is happening here. i immediately spoke to the first sea lord in charge of the navy, and he has confirmed that an investigation is under way and we look forward to finding out what the causes were.

but i was on hms diamond on thursday, thanking our brave men and women of the crew who had been defending us and themselves against the houthi missiles. their professionalism is an extraordinary thing. but professionalism is an extraordinary thint. �* ., ., ., , thing. but there are realworries, and ou thing. but there are realworries, and you know _ thing. but there are realworries, and you know this, _ thing. but there are realworries, and you know this, about - thing. but there are realworries, and you know this, about the - and you know this, about the capabilities of the british military, the navy, the army and the air force. almost every day, people who used to work in the services are saying they are concerned about things being stretched and stretched, partly because of the increasing activity we are seeing. even your colleague penny mordaunt, who used to be defence secretary, she said online this morning that the royal navy must keep pace with growing capabilities of other nations. she is clearly concerned. i'm ina i'm in a post where there are a lot of people with opinions and a lot of people who have been in the military armed forces will often address

them... �* armed forces will often address them... . , ., armed forces will often address them... , ., , ., them... and you should listen to them. .. and you should listen to them- will— them... and you should listen to them- will i _ them... and you should listen to them. wuu do. _ them... and you should listen to them. will | do. |_ them... and you should listen to them. willl do. i have _ them... and you should listen to them. willl do. i have people i them... and you should listen to them. willl do. i have people in| them. will i do. i have people in periodically and i listen to them. i periodically and i listen to them. i would say, we have, for periodically and i listen to them. i would say, we have, for example, the largest ships we have ever put to sea, the aircraft carriers. i think 13 frigates and destroyers which are under commission at the moment. we are modernising the navy, going through this massive recapitalisation programme. just this morning, for example, i put on x yesterday, the results of a new weapon which is a laser weapon called dragon fire capable of doing what those men and women on hms diamond have been doing, with the sea viper missile system, doing it with a laser instead. the technology is also moving on very fast, as well as the investment. has is also moving on very fast, as well as the investment.— is also moving on very fast, as well as the investment. as we have seen in ukraine. — as the investment. as we have seen in ukraine. a — as the investment. as we have seen in ukraine, a kind _ as the investment. as we have seen in ukraine, a kind of— as the investment. as we have seen in ukraine, a kind of former- as the investment. as we have seen in ukraine, a kind of former which . in ukraine, a kind of former which we thought had gone for good is very

much back —— a kind of warfare. you have not been able to hedge your recruitment target. the target last year was 8000, you only recruited five and a half thousand to the army. the company running that recruitment have blamed your roles. they have said it is partly because they will say you cannot allow anyone with tatties into the army. would you change the rules if it gets is the military we need? it is gets is the military we need? it is not true gets is the military we need? it is rrot true that _ gets is the military we need? it 3 not true that people with type twos cannot go into the army, to clear that up. i do not believe creating an army fit for the modern age which means that some of the old taboos will not apply any more —— i do believe. when it comes to the air force, we have got known only fifth generation fighterjets, the f 35, we are committed to more of those, but a sixth generation that we are working with italy and japan on. i would say, the ukraine war does it show conventional things still matter, but also new things, like

drones and swarms of drones. again, the uk has announced a £200 million programme which will make us the biggest drone provider and development partnerfor biggest drone provider and development partner for ukraine in the world. we intend to read on those things. if the world. we intend to read on those things— the world. we intend to read on those things-— the world. we intend to read on those things. if the threat is going u . , wh is those things. if the threat is going op. why is the _ those things. if the threat is going up, why is the size _ those things. if the threat is going up, why is the size of _ those things. if the threat is going up, why is the size of our - those things. if the threat is going up, why is the size of our forces i up, why is the size of our forces going down? i work full time personal is 73,020 25, that is our target. it was more than 80,020 21. i have noticed that people often conflate our armed forces with one specific part of it. in other words, the army. specific part of it. in other words, the arm . ., . specific part of it. in other words, the arm . ., , ., ., specific part of it. in other words, the army-— specific part of it. in other words, the arm . ., , ., ., ., the army. that is wrong to do. the full armed — the army. that is wrong to do. the full armed forces _ the army. that is wrong to do. the full armed forces is _ the army. that is wrong to do. the full armed forces is 188,000 - the army. that is wrong to do. the full armed forces is 188,000 right now. that includes all the different services. and of course you have got new areas like cyber and space, as well. it is not the number of people alone that matters, it is the lethality, it is how capable our systems are of defence. as we have seen any conflicts which we have

mentioned so far, they have not been about sending land forces. when we have been asked to, in, for example, this steadfast defender, the nato operation in europe, which country is providing 40% of this 32 country combination? the united kingdom. we are providing 40% of the forces. we can turn them out when we need to. what political leaders also instruct matters enormously. nowhere more so right now than in israel. benjamin netanyahu, his spokesman said overnight, after hamas is destroyed, as you must retain security control over gaza. that is a requirement that contradicts the demand for palestinian sovereignty. it has been the uk's position for a long time that there must be two states, the two state solution. what is the uk doing to urge him to shift that view. it doing to urge him to shift that view. . , doing to urge him to shift that view. , , , ., view. it is very disappointing that ben'amin view. it is very disappointing that benjamin netanyahu _ view. it is very disappointing that benjamin netanyahu has - view. it is very disappointing that benjamin netanyahu has said - view. it is very disappointing that i benjamin netanyahu has said that. view. it is very disappointing that - benjamin netanyahu has said that. it

is not a surprise in some senses. he has spent his entire political career against the two state solution. the point is, which are the root is there to seriously resolve this? palestinians deserve a sovereign state, israel deserves to have the full ability to defend itself, its own insecurity, and other birds. and you pursue a two state solution, i really do not see that there is another solution. —— unless you pursue. you will get other views in the israeli government, it is a rainbow coalition. we very much distinguish between the views of individuals and our overall support for israel as a country. it our overall support for israel as a count . . our overall support for israel as a count . , , , ., our overall support for israel as a count . , , ., country. it is interesting you have said that is _ country. it is interesting you have said that is disappointing. - country. it is interesting you have| said that is disappointing. briefly, would you bet a fiver on the rewind that legislation being passed by the house of lords? i that legislation being passed by the house of lords?— that legislation being passed by the house of lords? i very much hope it is. it is house of lords? i very much hope it is- it is time — house of lords? i very much hope it is. it is time to _ house of lords? i very much hope it is. it is time to stop _ house of lords? i very much hope it is. it is time to stop the _ house of lords? i very much hope it is. it is time to stop the boats - house of lords? i very much hope it is. it is time to stop the boats and i is. it is time to stop the boats and essentially sandy plains. again,

there is not another way to solve this. i appeal to keir starmer and labour to stop frustrating and blocking conservative efforts to stop these boats. it is blocking conservative efforts to stop these boats.— blocking conservative efforts to stop these boats. it is up to the house of lords _ stop these boats. it is up to the house of lords this _ stop these boats. it is up to the house of lords this week. - stop these boats. it is up to the house of lords this week. this | stop these boats. it is up to the - house of lords this week. this what the kee- house of lords this week. this what they keep saying... _ house of lords this week. this what they keep saying... we _ house of lords this week. this what they keep saying... we will talk - they keep saying... we will talk about that _ they keep saying... we will talk about that a _ they keep saying... we will talk about that a bit _ they keep saying... we will talk about that a bit later. _ they keep saying... we will talk about that a bit later. we - they keep saying... we will talk| about that a bit later. we talked about that a bit later. we talked about it at length last week with keir starmer and with rishi sunak the week before. grant shapps, thank you for coming in. we'll chew that over in a few minutes. our politicians are all having to respond to a world that is changing fast in all sorts of ways. of course, the political map has changed in this country too, a lot, in the last few years, not least in scotland where the once all mighty snp has lost its all powerful boss, lost its secure lead in the polls, might lose half its seats in the general election, and has lost its mojo. on thursday i sat down with the first minister, humza yousaf — where he seemed extraordinarly sure about who is heading to number 10, and just this morning is writing to keir starmer, inviting him for talks. but what is the snp's plan for the election when things have gone so wrong?

the ambition and the aim is twofold. one is to be the biggest party in the general election here in scotland. secondly, to also wipe the tories off the electoral map in scotland. of course, the fact that the snp is second place in every single tory seat in scotland means that if people want to make scotland tory free, free of tory mps, then they have to vote for the snp. the truthful situation here is that the more labour mps there are, the more likely a labour government, and therefore the more likely it is to get rid of the tories, or wipe them off the map, as you would put it. keir starmer is 20—25% ahead in the polls. he is going to be the next prime minister of the united kingdom. i don't think you could point me to a single poll that doesn'tjust show that that isn't the case, but you probably couldn't even show me a single poll that suggests it is marginal. keir starmer does not need scotland to win. it is deeply misleading to suggest to people that you know it is inevitable that keir starmer is going to be prime minister when we are probably ten months away from an election. if you can show me a single poll that is suggesting this

is going to be a marginal election, i would love to see it because i have not seen it at all. so i would suggest it is undoubtedly the case that keir starmer doesn't need scotland to win, he is going to be the next prime minister of the uk. we all know that. what i am saying to voters in scotland is vote for what you believe in. if you believe in a party that will always stand up for scotland, if you believe in our values, if they are your values — such as scrapping tuition fees, such as scrapping prescription charges, generous offers of childcare — if these are your values, then help us to protect them. and when it comes to keir starmer being the next prime minister of the united kingdom, which i think he absolutely will be, i should say i am very willing to work with an incoming labour government. i think there plenty we can work on. there will be disagreements — constitution, perhaps, being the obvious one — but i do think there is plenty of areas we could work on. so, what do you mean by that? have you spoken to him now? are you planning to talk to him before the election if you are so sure he is going to be in number10? well, i have.

i have written to keir starmer, invited him to edinburgh for a discussion. i would like to speak to keir starmer as the man who will undoubtedly be the next prime minister of the united kingdom. particularly on the issues of tackling child poverty. i think we need to work together in order to tackle child poverty right across the united kingdom. now, i think keir starmer should commit to, for example, lifting the two child limit. and by doing so, could lift 250,000 children out of poverty across the uk and 15,000 children here in scotland. let's scrap the bedroom tax, which is keeping too many people in poverty. what are you suggesting, though, in terms of that discussion? because when we spoke last injune, you seemed to believe a hung parliament was a likelihood, and you said that you would set out some conditions if you were ever to lend snp mps' support to keir starmer if he did not have a majority himself. what i am saying to keir starmer is snp mps will work with you. it is hardly going to be a surprise that when i speak to keir starmer, i hope he takes me up on the invitation to meet,

that would be the grown—up, responsible thing for him to do, that i will advocate for a second independence referendum, because i have got all of the reasons why i think our mandate has been ignored over the years, and i hope he will take a respectful approach to listening to scotland's voice. do you accept, though, that he is not, if he gets to be a prime minister, going to offer you another independence referendum? and for voters, you have just said then it will be on the ballot again. but you promised it to voters in 2017, it didn't happen. in 2019, you promised again, it didn't happen. in 2022, the supreme court said you do not have the power to make this happen again. do you accept independence and another referendum, they are just not going to happen any time soon? i don't accept it for two reasons. you and i spoke about this last time we had an interview. you have got to do two things. you have got to create both the political conditions and then you have got to create the popular support and the conditions for popular support. so, the political conditions is why the snp, i believe, have to win the general election,

i want the snp to win the general election to help to send a really strong message to westminster that scotland will not be ignored. and we will be very clear, page one, line one on the manifesto — "vote for the snp for scotland to become an independent..." but you know your support has been sliding, you know you are on track to lose seats. well, not the support for independence, of course, and that is my second point. you have to create the conditions for a consistent majority for independence. but for that to happen, you also have to be persuading people that you are a good and effective government. let's turn to the impact of some of your policies right here, right now. the billionaire businessman tom hunter is on the programme on sunday, he has a question about your higher taxes because higher rate taxpayers in scotland are now paying significantly more than people do in england. tom hunter's question is, "given scotland now has six different tax bands as opposed to three in the uk, do you see this as an incentive for start—ups trying to grow businesses and talent to set up in scotland?" now, that is a major business voice... oh, yeah, and a very respectable one. ..unhappy about you making it much

more expensive in some ways for people to do business here. look, first and foremost, i have got a lot of time for sir tom hunter. he and i won't always agree, we will have disagreements, clearly, but he is an important business voice and one that i have engaged with on a number of occasions. do remember, in scotland, the majority of taxpayers will pay less tax in scotland than, of course, taxpayers elsewhere in the uk. in terms of those top 5% of earners that we are asking to pay a little bit more, like first ministers and people on mps' salaries, they will be asked to pay a little bit more so that we can continue to provide policies like free tuition, free university education, like scrapping prescription charges, like childcare...generous childcare offer. and despite those decisions that you have made, there are still significant problems in scottish public services, real problems with waiting lists, and you have mentioned education... well, after 13 and a half years of tory austerity, seeing our budget in real terms fall by £500 million, we are notjust managing, i think we are doing incredibly well to make sure, for example, our a&e departments

are the best performing... people should be happy about the state of the waiting lists? well, i think people will recognise that we have prioritised public services over tax cuts for the wealthy, and i think that is a political choice, undoubtedly a political choice, that we take, and it one that i stand by. and they are all choices, and mentioned education several times. during the snp's tenure, scottish schools have slipped back in the well respected pisa ratings quite significantly, and scottish schools and the education that scottish kids get is now behind the education that english children are getting. are you proud of that? well, look, i said at the time of the pisa study stats came out that i didn't think that was good enough. that is why one of the first things i did was actually enrolled scotland... as first minister, enroll scotland back into a whole raft of international studies, which we will do. but that, of course, tells one part of the story. if you look at, for example, the progress we have made in relation to reducing literacy and numeracy, if we look at the progress we have made in terms of young people achieving highers and advanced highers,

we have managed to make progress on a number of areas. scotland has slid in the international figures, and that is important, that matters to scottish parents, it matters to scotland's standing in the rest of the uk. you say yourself it is not good enough, and you have been in charge here of health, of education, of many different things. and on many different measures, actually, the record does not look pretty. and in a way, there is a real parallel between the snp and what is happening to the conservatives across the uk. you have been in powerfor a long time, a lot of things seem to be going the wrong way, your popularity has slipped back, and there is a thing about sort of incumbency, people look and think, "well, they are kind of out of ideas." do you accept that parallel? no, i don't accept the parallel because i can point to the fact that, through our actions, when it comes to the issue that i said will be the defining mission of the government that i lead, we had in 2023 90,000 fewer

children in poverty. what i have said is that also when it comes to our health service, we can demonstrate that, yes, there are absolutely challenges, but we have not lost a single day of the nhs to strike action, which is very different to wales, very different to england. when i look at our other public services, we have recorded crime at record low levels under the snp. just lastly, you have been one of the uk politicians who has repeatedly called for a ceasefire in gaza. why do you think others have hesitated before doing that? i think there is just a lack of leadership and moral courage, if i'm being frank. and this is a classic example of where i think nobody understands what keir starmer stands for. why has he not shown the appropriate leadership on the issue of gaza? i don't know the answer to that, but i don't know how anybody can see that level, as i say, of death and destruction and not call for an immediate halt, an immediate ceasefire. do you think sometimes people

place a different value on palestinian lives, on muslim lives? without a shadow of a doubt. if you talk to anybody who is palestinian, you speak to many people in the muslim community, they feel that the palestinian blood is very cheap. first minister, thank you very much for speaking to us. thank you. let's see what our trio at the desk made of that. nicky, you had humza yousaf�*s strong views that palestinians are simply not regarded in the same way that we look at israelis. grant shapps also said that benjamin netanyahu's position against a two—state solution is disappointing. what can the uk government do to try to shift that? because they believe it is a stumbling block, yet they don't seem able to do anything about it. it was able to do anything about it. it was fascinatint able to do anything about it. it was fascinating that _ able to do anything about it. it was fascinating that grant _ able to do anything about it. it was fascinating that grant shapps - able to do anything about it. it "1413 fascinating that grant shapps was quite so clear. people watching might think disappointing is not a strong word, but coming from a uk

defence secretary against the statements made by an overseas prime minister, i think that is pretty strong. i think the uk has to work multilaterally in the un and with our allies such as the us. foreign secretary david cameron has visited israel. no doubt there will be further visits and many behind the scenes conversations. i would like to think most of westminster will be disappointed at least by benjamin netanyahu's comments because i think the two—state solution has to be one of the only way is out of the current difficulties are seen. as simon was saying earlier, what we have seen happening in israel and gaza, the worry is that it spreads to other countries unintentionally. simon, you have spent time all over the world, but in that region too. how is the west's pronouncements viewed? does it matter what the uk says? viewed? does it matter what the uk sa s? �* ., . viewed? does it matter what the uk sas? ., . ., says? i'm not convinced that it matters what _ says? i'm not convinced that it matters what the _ says? i'm not convinced that it matters what the uk _ says? i'm not convinced that it matters what the uk says. - says? i'm not convinced that it matters what the uk says. it i matters what the uk says. it

certainly _ matters what the uk says. it certainly matters _ matters what the uk says. it certainly matters what - matters what the uk says. it. certainly matters what america matters what the uk says. it - certainly matters what america sets. if certainly matters what america sets. if anyone _ certainly matters what america sets. if anyone has — certainly matters what america sets. it anyone has any— certainly matters what america sets. if anyone has any influence - certainly matters what america sets. if anyone has any influence over - if anyone has any influence over israetis — if anyone has any influence over israetis in — if anyone has any influence over israelis in this _ if anyone has any influence over israelis in this situation, - if anyone has any influence over israelis in this situation, it - if anyone has any influence over israelis in this situation, it is - israelis in this situation, it is the — israelis in this situation, it is the states _ israelis in this situation, it is the states. but _ israelis in this situation, it is the states. but of _ israelis in this situation, it is the states. but of course, i israelis in this situation, it is - the states. but of course, president biden— the states. but of course, president biden thinks— the states. but of course, president biden thinks his _ the states. but of course, president biden thinks his hands _ the states. but of course, president biden thinks his hands are _ the states. but of course, presidentl biden thinks his hands are somewhat tired _ biden thinks his hands are somewhat tired i_ biden thinks his hands are somewhat tired ithink— biden thinks his hands are somewhat tired. ithink he— biden thinks his hands are somewhat tired. i think he would _ biden thinks his hands are somewhat tired. i think he would be _ biden thinks his hands are somewhat tired. i think he would be able - biden thinks his hands are somewhat tired. i think he would be able to - tired. i think he would be able to do more — tired. i think he would be able to do more than _ tired. i think he would be able to do more than he _ tired. i think he would be able to do more than he actually- tired. i think he would be able to do more than he actually is, - tired. i think he would be able to do more than he actually is, buti do more than he actually is, but that is— do more than he actually is, but that is not— do more than he actually is, but that is not to _ do more than he actually is, but that is not to say _ do more than he actually is, but that is not to say the _ do more than he actually is, but that is not to say the americansj that is not to say the americans haven't— that is not to say the americans haven't been— that is not to say the americans haven't been involved _ that is not to say the americans haven't been involved for- that is not to say the americans i haven't been involved for decades. they had — haven't been involved for decades. they had. they— haven't been involved for decades. they had. they have _ haven't been involved for decades. they had. they have done - haven't been involved for decades. they had. they have done more i haven't been involved for decades. i they had. they have done more than anyone _ they had. they have done more than anyone to _ they had. they have done more than anyone to take — they had. they have done more than anyone to take these _ they had. they have done more than anyone to take these two _ they had. they have done more than anyone to take these two sides - they had. they have done more than anyone to take these two sides to . anyone to take these two sides to the negotiating _ anyone to take these two sides to the negotiating table _ anyone to take these two sides to the negotiating table under- anyone to take these two sides to the negotiating table under some| the negotiating table under some sort of— the negotiating table under some sort of agreement. _ the negotiating table under some sort of agreement. it's _ the negotiating table under some sort of agreement. it's a - the negotiating table under some sort of agreement. it's a good . sort of agreement. it's a good situation~ _ sort of agreement. it's a good situation. we _ sort of agreement. it's a good situation. we can _ sort of agreement. it's a good situation. we can sit - sort of agreement. it's a good situation. we can sit here - sort of agreement. it's a good situation. we can sit here and| sort of agreement. it's a good - situation. we can sit here and talk in rational— situation. we can sit here and talk in rational terms— situation. we can sit here and talk in rational terms about _ situation. we can sit here and talk in rational terms about people - in rational terms about people coming — in rational terms about people coming to— in rational terms about people coming to negotiations - in rational terms about people coming to negotiations etc, i in rational terms about peoplei coming to negotiations etc, but there _ coming to negotiations etc, but there are — coming to negotiations etc, but there are some _ coming to negotiations etc, but there are some real— coming to negotiations etc, but there are some real extremistsj coming to negotiations etc, but i there are some real extremists on both sides — there are some real extremists on both sides we _ there are some real extremists on both sides. we don't— there are some real extremists on both sides. we don't quite - there are some real extremists on. both sides. we don't quite recognise the depths— both sides. we don't quite recognise the depths of— both sides. we don't quite recognise the depths of the _ both sides. we don't quite recognise the depths of the fury, _ both sides. we don't quite recognise the depths of the fury, the - both sides. we don't quite recognise the depths of the fury, the anger, i the depths of the fury, the anger, the depths of the fury, the anger, the rage. — the depths of the fury, the anger, the rage. the _ the depths of the fury, the anger, the rage, the hatred _ the depths of the fury, the anger, the rage, the hatred and, - the depths of the fury, the anger, the rage, the hatred and, frankly, | the rage, the hatred and, frankly, the rage, the hatred and, frankly, the nuttery— the rage, the hatred and, frankly, the nuttery that _ the rage, the hatred and, frankly, the nuttery that exist _ the rage, the hatred and, frankly, the nuttery that exist in _ the rage, the hatred and, frankly, the nuttery that exist in this - the nuttery that exist in this situation _ the nuttery that exist in this situation i_ the nuttery that exist in this situation. i am _ the nuttery that exist in this situation. i am worried - the nuttery that exist in thisl situation. i am worried about the nuttery that exist in this - situation. i am worried about the chances — situation. i am worried about the chances of— situation. i am worried about the chances of a _ situation. i am worried about the chances of a two—state _ situation. i am worried about the chances of a two—state solution. | situation. i am worried about thei chances of a two—state solution. i think— chances of a two—state solution. i think it's — chances of a two—state solution. i think it's almost _ chances of a two—state solution. i think it's almost been _ chances of a two—state solution. i think it's almost been driven - chances of a two—state solution. i think it's almost been driven out. chances of a two—state solution. i i think it's almost been driven out of being _ think it's almost been driven out of being a _ think it's almost been driven out of being a possibility _ think it's almost been driven out of being a possibility over— think it's almost been driven out of being a possibility over the - think it's almost been driven out of being a possibility over the last - being a possibility over the last few decades _

being a possibility over the last few decades by _ being a possibility over the last few decades by the _ being a possibility over the last few decades by the endless - being a possibility over the last - few decades by the endless settlers in the _ few decades by the endless settlers in the west— few decades by the endless settlers in the west bank. _ few decades by the endless settlers in the west bank. how— few decades by the endless settlers in the west bank. how on _ few decades by the endless settlers in the west bank. how on earth - few decades by the endless settlers in the west bank. how on earth will they create — in the west bank. how on earth will they create a — in the west bank. how on earth will they create a functioning _ in the west bank. how on earth will they create a functioning two—statel they create a functioning two—state solution? _ they create a functioning two—state solution? but— they create a functioning two—state solution? but i _ they create a functioning two—state solution? but i agree, _ they create a functioning two—state solution? but i agree, what- they create a functioning two—state solution? but i agree, what other. solution? but i agree, what other possibility— solution? but i agree, what other possibility is _ solution? but i agree, what other possibility is there? _ solution? but i agree, what other possibility is there? i _ solution? but i agree, what other possibility is there? i promise - possibility is there? i promise everyone _ possibility is there? i promise everyone that _ possibility is there? i promise everyone that unless - possibility is there? i promise everyone that unless we - possibility is there? i promise . everyone that unless we resolve possibility is there? i promise - everyone that unless we resolve this and unless _ everyone that unless we resolve this and unless we — everyone that unless we resolve this and unless we take _ everyone that unless we resolve this and unless we take real— everyone that unless we resolve this and unless we take real care - everyone that unless we resolve this and unless we take real care with . and unless we take real care with this, _ and unless we take real care with this, this — and unless we take real care with this, this has _ and unless we take real care with this, this has the _ and unless we take real care with this, this has the potential- and unless we take real care with this, this has the potential to - this, this has the potential to detonate _ this, this has the potential to detonate a _ this, this has the potential to detonate a wider— this, this has the potential to detonate a wider situation . this, this has the potential to| detonate a wider situation not this, this has the potential to - detonate a wider situation not just in the _ detonate a wider situation not just in the middle _ detonate a wider situation not just in the middle east, _ detonate a wider situation not just in the middle east, but— detonate a wider situation not just in the middle east, but one - detonate a wider situation not just in the middle east, but one that. in the middle east, but one that will affect— in the middle east, but one that will affect us— in the middle east, but one that will affect us all. _ in the middle east, but one that will affect us all. we _ in the middle east, but one that will affect us all.— in the middle east, but one that will affect us all. we are going to talk about humza _ will affect us all. we are going to talk about humza yousaf - will affect us all. we are going to talk about humza yousaf in - will affect us all. we are going to talk about humza yousaf in a - will affect us all. we are going to - talk about humza yousaf in a second, tom, i wondered, talk about humza yousaf in a second, tom, iwondered, where talk about humza yousaf in a second, tom, i wondered, where you reassured, having listened to grant shapps? reassured, having listened to grant shah-s? ,, shapps? goodness, reassured listenin t shapps? goodness, reassured listening to — shapps? goodness, reassured listening to politicians, - shapps? goodness, reassuredj listening to politicians, laura? shapps? goodness, reassuredi listening to politicians, laura? i don't _ listening to politicians, laura? i don't know— listening to politicians, laura? i don't know about reassured. it is obviously— don't know about reassured. it is obviously not my specialist subject, but coming — obviously not my specialist subject, but coming to it as an amateur what other— but coming to it as an amateur what other solution could there be? the rights _ other solution could there be? the rights for— other solution could there be? the rights for palestinians to have their— rights for palestinians to have their own _ rights for palestinians to have their own country, the right for israet— their own country, the right for israet to— their own country, the right for israel to have secure borders, that is common— israel to have secure borders, that is common sense. this is a time for

political— is common sense. this is a time for political leadership to come to the fore, _ political leadership to come to the fore, and — political leadership to come to the fore, and i— political leadership to come to the fore, and i am worried about the quality— fore, and i am worried about the quality of— fore, and i am worried about the quality of political leadership around — quality of political leadership around the world to come up with these _ around the world to come up with these solutions.— these solutions. let's talk about our art these solutions. let's talk about your part of _ these solutions. let's talk about your part of the _ these solutions. let's talk about your part of the world, - these solutions. let's talk about your part of the world, where i these solutions. let's talk about. your part of the world, where there are worries about the quality of political leadership. humza yousaf, who we spoke to at length this week, it is fair to say he is not yet seen by many people as a really compelling leader, talking to pollsters. he has not been able to take the situation by the scruff of the neck. he inherited a very difficult situation in scotland, but what did you think of how he positioned himself today with this claim again and again that keir starmer is inevitably going to be prime minister, so you can vote snp? goodness me, a political leader saying _ goodness me, a political leader saying that an opposition party is definitely— saying that an opposition party is definitely going to be prime minister of the uk, i don't think i have _ minister of the uk, i don't think i have heard — minister of the uk, i don't think i have heard that before. let's start with what — have heard that before. let's start with what i— have heard that before. let's start with what i agree with him on. don't worry, _ with what i agree with him on. don't worry, it's _ with what i agree with him on. don't worry, it's a — with what i agree with him on. don't worry, it's a shortlist. we would

agree _ worry, it's a shortlist. we would agree we — worry, it's a shortlist. we would agree we are in our country scotland to grow— agree we are in our country scotland to grow and — agree we are in our country scotland to grow and flourish, but we disagree _ to grow and flourish, but we disagree on how we are going to do it. disagree on how we are going to do it let's _ disagree on how we are going to do it let's be — disagree on how we are going to do it. let's be clear, governments don't _ it. let's be clear, governments don't make _ it. let's be clear, governments don't make wealth in a country. business — don't make wealth in a country. business people, entrepreneurs, hard—working individuals who are out there _ hard—working individuals who are out there striving, create the wealth. governments should create an environment in which that can happen, — environment in which that can happen, and then they decide to tax us and _ happen, and then they decide to tax us and spend our money and we have a chance _ us and spend our money and we have a chance every— us and spend our money and we have a chance every few years to decide if they are _ chance every few years to decide if they are doing a good job or not. this is— they are doing a good job or not. this is where i believe 16 years of the same — this is where i believe 16 years of the same government in scotland is far too— the same government in scotland is far too long. that is not a political _ far too long. that is not a political statement.- far too long. that is not a political statement. our audience should know _ political statement. our audience should know you _ political statement. our audience should know you have _ political statement. our audience should know you have never - political statement. our audience should know you have never said| political statement. our audience - should know you have never said what side you are on in the independence debate, so you are not coming from a particular side. debate, so you are not coming from a particularside. i’m debate, so you are not coming from a particular side-— particular side. i'm not in a political— particular side. i'm not in a political party _ particular side. i'm not in a political party and - particular side. i'm not in a political party and i - particular side. i'm not in a political party and i never i particular side. i'm not in a - political party and i never would be, nty— political party and i never would be, my wife wouldn't allow it. but we believe — be, my wife wouldn't allow it. but we believe in entrepreneurs and businesses being allowed to thrive,

to create _ businesses being allowed to thrive, to create the jobs. we believe that the best— to create the jobs. we believe that the best social policy ever written as a decently paid job. what is happening in scotland, i believe, is that the _ happening in scotland, i believe, is that the government believes they know— that the government believes they know best, but the facts are not with them _ know best, but the facts are not with them. we have a ferry contract that the _ with them. we have a ferry contract that the government has taken over that the government has taken over that is— that the government has taken over that is going to cost the scottish taxpayer— that is going to cost the scottish taxpayer 300 million. we have a deposit — taxpayer 300 million. we have a deposit return scheme which was put in by people with no business experience that is going to cost 50 million _ experience that is going to cost 50 million. how many nurses, teachers and policemen could that pay for? but when — and policemen could that pay for? but when we asked him your question about extra taxation for the wealthy, he made the point, suck it up, because that pays for free tuition and free prescriptions. what tuition and free prescriptions. what did ou tuition and free prescriptions. what did you think— tuition and free prescriptions. what did you think of— tuition and free prescriptions. what did you think of that? _ tuition and free prescriptions. what did you think of that? so we agree again— did you think of that? so we agree again that — did you think of that? so we agree again that the people with the broader— again that the people with the broader shoulders should carry the heaviest _ broader shoulders should carry the heaviest burden, absolutely. but that is— heaviest burden, absolutely. but that is happening in scotland. 11% of the _ that is happening in scotland. 11% of the scottish taxpayers, of which i am of the scottish taxpayers, of which i am one. —

of the scottish taxpayers, of which i am one, pay 65% of the whole income — i am one, pay 65% of the whole income tax _ i am one, pay 65% of the whole income tax collectively in scotland. people _ income tax collectively in scotland. people with the broadest shoulders are carrying the heaviest burden. where _ are carrying the heaviest burden. where we — are carrying the heaviest burden. where we disagree is that i want more _ where we disagree is that i want more wealth creators. i want more people _ more wealth creators. i want more people in— more wealth creators. i want more people in scotland growing their businesses. we did an investigation with oxford economics about the irish~ _ with oxford economics about the irish. ireland is going to run a 60 billion— irish. ireland is going to run a 60 billion surplus over the next three years _ billion surplus over the next three years. scotland is going to run a 30 billion— years. scotland is going to run a 30 billion deficit. find years. scotland is going to run a 30 billion deficit.— billion deficit. and you think scotland could _ billion deficit. and you think scotland could take - billion deficit. and you think scotland could take lessons| billion deficit. and you think - scotland could take lessons from ireland? �* . scotland could take lessons from ireland? �*, . ., ., ., ireland? let's create more. you don't get _ ireland? let's create more. you don't get that — ireland? let's create more. you don't get that by _ ireland? let's create more. you don't get that by having - ireland? let's create more. you don't get that by having six - don't get that by having six different bands of income tax. that is double _ different bands of income tax. that is double what we have here in england. — is double what we have here in england, and that is ridiculous. people — england, and that is ridiculous. people in — england, and that is ridiculous. people in the scottish business community who i listen to, they don't _ community who i listen to, they don't believe this government has their back, — don't believe this government has their back, and that is a bad situation _ their back, and that is a bad situation. it their back, and that is a bad situation-— their back, and that is a bad situation. ., , , ., , situation. it was interesting to put our situation. it was interesting to put your question _ situation. it was interesting to put your question to — situation. it was interesting to put your question to him _ situation. it was interesting to put your question to him and - situation. it was interesting to put your question to him and to - situation. it was interesting to put your question to him and to hear i situation. it was interesting to put i your question to him and to hear his response and your response. i want to briefly touch on rwanda. nicky,

grant shapps says it has to go through in the lords has to pass it. will you lourdes let it through? rishi sunak says it is the will of the people, you have to get on with it. i the people, you have to get on with it. ., �* ~ ., , the people, you have to get on with it. i don't think he was speaking on behalf of the _ it. i don't think he was speaking on behalf of the whole _ it. i don't think he was speaking on behalf of the whole house - it. i don't think he was speaking on behalf of the whole house of - it. i don't think he was speaking on | behalf of the whole house of lords, but i was sorry grant shapps didn't take your back because i think the bill will go through the house of lords. i would just say to number ten that the last prime minister who used the will of the people language, it wasn't a happy precedent. with the house of lords, the thing to do is to give it time. it is a scrutinising chamber. there are lots of people, lawyers, diplomats and others who rightly will say, are you sure about this? do you want to let it through? that is what a scrutinising chamber is about, but we are clear that we are not the elected chamber and therefore, if the government wants this to go through, i think it will. but the political push from rishi sunak is something you don't appreciate, i think you are saying. in my experience, i have only been in the house of lords for four

years, but if you put them under too much pressure, there are no timetabled motions in the house of lords. we don't do truncated debate. if you allow them to talk, debate and scrutinise and say, are you sure you want to do this, i think they will get the result they want in number ten. will get the result they want in numberten. but will get the result they want in number ten.— will get the result they want in number ten. but he will do it in our number ten. but he will do it in your own _ number ten. but he will do it in your own sweet _ number ten. but he will do it in your own sweet time. _ number ten. but he will do it in your own sweet time. simon, i number ten. but he will do it in i your own sweet time. simon, what number ten. but he will do it in - your own sweet time. simon, what do your own sweet time. simon, what do you think of the rwanda policy? you have spent a lot of time in africa. i think it's a gimmick was that i think— i think it's a gimmick was that i think it — i think it's a gimmick was that i think it is — i think it's a gimmick was that i think it is designed to appeal to voters — think it is designed to appeal to voters rather than effect actual change~ — voters rather than effect actual chante. �* ., , , change. but i would step back slithtl change. but i would step back slightly from _ change. but i would step back slightly from is _ change. but i would step back slightly from is an _ change. but i would step back slightly from is an issue. - change. but i would step back slightly from is an issue. i - change. but i would step back. slightly from is an issue. i don't we talk— slightly from is an issue. i don't we talk enough _ slightly from is an issue. i don't we talk enough about, - slightly from is an issue. i don't we talk enough about, what - slightly from is an issue. i don't we talk enough about, what are slightly from is an issue. i don't . we talk enough about, what are we trying _ we talk enough about, what are we trying to— we talk enough about, what are we trying to achieve? _ we talk enough about, what are we trying to achieve? what _ we talk enough about, what are we trying to achieve? what is - we talk enough about, what are we trying to achieve? what is our- trying to achieve? what is our ultimate — trying to achieve? what is our ultimate target— trying to achieve? what is our ultimate target with _ trying to achieve? what is our ultimate target with this - trying to achieve? what is our ultimate target with this on i trying to achieve? what is our. ultimate target with this on the migration— ultimate target with this on the migration issue? _ ultimate target with this on the migration issue? for— ultimate target with this on the migration issue? for me - ultimate target with this on the - migration issue? for me personally, my principal — migration issue? for me personally, my principal desire _ migration issue? for me personally, my principal desire is— migration issue? for me personally, my principal desire is to _ migration issue? for me personally, my principal desire is to make - my principal desire is to make poorer— my principal desire is to make poorer countries _ my principal desire is to make poorer countries a _ my principal desire is to make poorer countries a bit - my principal desire is to make i poorer countries a bit wealthier, that our— poorer countries a bit wealthier, that our brothers _ poorer countries a bit wealthier, that our brothers and _ poorer countries a bit wealthier, that our brothers and sisters - poorer countries a bit wealthier, that our brothers and sisters on| that our brothers and sisters on planet— that our brothers and sisters on planet earth _ that our brothers and sisters on planet earth live _ that our brothers and sisters on planet earth live better, - that our brothers and sisters on planet earth live better, more i planet earth live better, more fulfilling — planet earth live better, more fulfilling lives. _ planet earth live better, more fulfilling lives. i— planet earth live better, more fulfilling lives. i don't - planet earth live better, more fulfilling lives. i don't think. planet earth live better, more i fulfilling lives. i don't think that

is achieved _ fulfilling lives. idon't think that is achieved by— fulfilling lives. i don't think that is achieved by mass _ fulfilling lives. i don't think that is achieved by mass migration. i fulfilling lives. i don't think that - is achieved by mass migration. mass migration— is achieved by mass migration. mass migration is— is achieved by mass migration. mass migration is a — is achieved by mass migration. mass migration is a bit _ is achieved by mass migration. mass migration is a bit of— is achieved by mass migration. mass migration is a bit of a _ is achieved by mass migration. mass migration is a bit of a racket - is achieved by mass migration. mass migration is a bit of a racket in - migration is a bit of a racket in many— migration is a bit of a racket in many ways— migration is a bit of a racket in many ways and _ migration is a bit of a racket in many ways and too _ migration is a bit of a racket in many ways and too often, - migration is a bit of a racket in i many ways and too often, people migration is a bit of a racket in - many ways and too often, people on the left _ many ways and too often, people on the left don't — many ways and too often, people on the left don't see _ many ways and too often, people on the left don't see it _ many ways and too often, people on the left don't see it for— many ways and too often, people on the left don't see it for what - many ways and too often, people on the left don't see it for what it - the left don't see it for what it is, which _ the left don't see it for what it is, which in _ the left don't see it for what it is, which in my— the left don't see it for what it is, which in my view, - the left don't see it for what it is, which in my view, is- the left don't see it for what it is, which in my view, is us, i the left don't see it for what it is, which in my view, is us, as wealthy— is, which in my view, is us, as wealthy countries, _ is, which in my view, is us, as wealthy countries, poaching, i is, which in my view, is us, as - wealthy countries, poaching, nicking and nabbing — wealthy countries, poaching, nicking and nabbing clever, _ wealthy countries, poaching, nicking and nabbing clever, bright— wealthy countries, poaching, nicking and nabbing clever, bright and - and nabbing clever, bright and wonderful— and nabbing clever, bright and wonderful people _ and nabbing clever, bright and wonderful people from - and nabbing clever, bright and wonderful people from poorer| wonderful people from poorer countries, _ wonderful people from poorer countries, bringing _ wonderful people from poorer countries, bringing them - wonderful people from poorer countries, bringing them overj wonderful people from poorer. countries, bringing them over to work— countries, bringing them over to work as— countries, bringing them over to work as pizza _ countries, bringing them over to work as pizza delivery— countries, bringing them over to work as pizza delivery people . countries, bringing them over tol work as pizza delivery people and courier— work as pizza delivery people and courier drivers. _ work as pizza delivery people and courier drivers. i— work as pizza delivery people and courier drivers. i don't _ work as pizza delivery people and | courier drivers. i don't necessarily courier drivers. idon't necessarily think— courier drivers. i don't necessarily think that — courier drivers. i don't necessarily think that helps _ courier drivers. i don't necessarily think that helps them _ courier drivers. i don't necessarily think that helps them stop - courier drivers. i don't necessarily think that helps them stop it - think that helps them stop it certainly— think that helps them stop it certainly doesn't _ think that helps them stop it certainly doesn't always - think that helps them stop itj certainly doesn't always help think that helps them stop it - certainly doesn't always help their countries — certainly doesn't always help their countries to _ certainly doesn't always help their countries. to many— certainly doesn't always help their countries. to many countries, - certainly doesn't always help their. countries. to many countries, where ”p countries. to many countries, where up to— countries. to many countries, where up to 90% _ countries. to many countries, where up to 90% of— countries. to many countries, where up to 90% ofthe _ countries. to many countries, where up to 90% of the university - countries. to many countries, wherej up to 90% of the university educated professionals — up to 90% of the university educated professionals have _ up to 90% of the university educated professionals have left. _ up to 90% of the university educated professionals have left. that- up to 9096 of the university educated professionals have left.— professionals have left. that is an interesting _ professionals have left. that is an interesting aspect _ professionals have left. that is an interesting aspect that _ professionals have left. that is an interesting aspect that is - professionals have left. that is an interesting aspect that is not - interesting aspect that is not talked about that much in westminster and this country. before we move on, we have talked a lot in this programme and we spoke at length to michelle mone before christmas. tom, you are somebody who knows her. i think you were one of her original investors. i was. this has turned into a mess and she is under investigation. i don't want you to talk about her criminal inquiry. she has that she lied about what happened, but they denied doing anything wrong in terms of the deal

they did. what do you think about what has happened to her, knowing her when you did as a young businesswoman? brute her when you did as a young businesswoman? . , ~ . businesswoman? we helped michelle in her early days- — businesswoman? we helped michelle in her early days. one _ businesswoman? we helped michelle in her early days. one of— businesswoman? we helped michelle in her early days. one of the _ businesswoman? we helped michelle in her early days. one of the key - businesswoman? we helped michelle in her early days. one of the key aims - her early days. one of the key aims of our— her early days. one of the key aims of our foundation is, we help hundreds— of our foundation is, we help hundreds of companies in scotland start and _ hundreds of companies in scotland start and grow. let's put what happened in context. when the pandemic hits, there was no one person— pandemic hits, there was no one person in— pandemic hits, there was no one person in the world who knew how to deal with _ person in the world who knew how to deal with it. — person in the world who knew how to deal with it, because there wasn't a living _ deal with it, because there wasn't a living soul— deal with it, because there wasn't a living soul who had lived through a pandemic — living soul who had lived through a pandemic. therefore, the government, in my— pandemic. therefore, the government, in my opinion, panicked, but i understand their panic, and there wasn't _ understand their panic, and there wasn't enough ppe. and there was this vip _ wasn't enough ppe. and there was this vip lane which probably on paper— this vip lane which probably on paper looked 0k. this vip lane which probably on paper looked ok. but then it turns out it— paper looked ok. but then it turns out it is— paper looked ok. but then it turns out it is friends of government ministers _ out it is friends of government ministers who maybe hadn't made this thin- ministers who maybe hadn't made this thing in _ ministers who maybe hadn't made this thing in the _ ministers who maybe hadn't made this thing in the past. but ministers who maybe hadn't made this thing in the past-— thing in the past. but do you think she has been _ thing in the past. but do you think she has been treated _ thing in the past. but do you think she has been treated fairly? - thing in the past. but do you think she has been treated fairly? she i she has been treated fairly? she thinks she has been made a

scapegoat. or do you look at what happened to her and think it is just a sad mess, but she may have made mistakes? i a sad mess, but she may have made mistakes? ~ . a sad mess, but she may have made mistakes? ,, , ., mistakes? i think she has her own worst enemy- _ mistakes? i think she has her own worst enemy- l— mistakes? i think she has her own worst enemy. i think— mistakes? i think she has her own worst enemy. i think in _ mistakes? i think she has her own worst enemy. i think in her- worst enemy. i think in her interview— worst enemy. i think in her interview with yourself, it was a car crash — interview with yourself, it was a car crash interview. why did she decide _ car crash interview. why did she decide to — car crash interview. why did she decide to do it? you must be very persuasive~ — decide to do it? you must be very persuasive. but she is not the only one who _ persuasive. but she is not the only one who benefited. if i had been running — one who benefited. if i had been running the government, which, thank god, i'm _ running the government, which, thank god, i'm not. — running the government, which, thank god, i'm not, iwould have said, can you help _ god, i'm not, iwould have said, can you help us? — god, i'm not, iwould have said, can you help us? but i am putting a cap on the _ you help us? but i am putting a cap on the profits you can make, because there _ on the profits you can make, because there is— on the profits you can make, because there is something above profit here~ _ there is something above profit here~ 0ur— there is something above profit here. our country is in dire straits _ here. our country is in dire straits. we need your help as entrepreneurs, but let's cap the profit _ entrepreneurs, but let's cap the profit you — entrepreneurs, but let's cap the profit you can make.— entrepreneurs, but let's cap the profit you can make. well, hindsight mitht be a profit you can make. well, hindsight might be a fine _ profit you can make. well, hindsight might be a fine thing. _ profit you can make. well, hindsight might be a fine thing. what - profit you can make. well, hindsight might be a fine thing. what does - might be a fine thing. what does that say about _ might be a fine thing. what does that say about society? - might be a fine thing. what does that say about society? thank. might be a fine thing. what does| that say about society? thank you might be a fine thing. what does - that say about society? thank you to all three of you. _ that say about society? thank you to all three of you. we _ that say about society? thank you to all three of you. we will— that say about society? thank you to all three of you. we will be - that say about society? thank you to all three of you. we will be back - all three of you. we will be back with you at the end of the show. and remember, you can tell us what you

think. so, as we heard, humza yousaf reckons labour are dead certs to win the election — or at least that is his political message. but remember, it is an absolutely massive task for them to get there. keir starmer needs a bigger swing than tony blair in 1997 and clem atlee's historic election in 1945 to win an overall majority. yvette cooper wants to take a seat as labour's next home secretary, but she's in the red chair today. firstly, our viewers will have seen this terrible story where four people were found dead at a home in norfolk. the police have referred themselves for an investigation because they didn't respond to a 999 call from that property. what because they didn't respond to a 999 call from that property.— call from that property. what do you think of that? _ call from that property. what do you think of that? this _ call from that property. what do you think of that? this is _ call from that property. what do you think of that? this is deeply - think of that? this is deeply troubling. it's an awful case. you have two young girls who have been killed as part of it. rightly, this case has now been referred for investigation, because there appears to have been a 999 call that wasn't

responded to. we don't know the details on this individual case, but i think there is a wider issue here about the 999 response, particularly to domestic abuse cases. we had an awful case of a child and her mother who were killed after repeated 999 calls were not responded to. so we are saying labour would put domestic abuse specialists into health and control centres so that you have that expertise to deal with difficult cases. we don't know whether that would have made any difference in this case, and there needs to be an investigation, but there is a wider issue about making sure we have the proper response to these kinds of awful cases. ibtnd sure we have the proper response to these kinds of awful cases.— these kinds of awful cases. and do ou think these kinds of awful cases. and do you think people — these kinds of awful cases. and do you think people watching - these kinds of awful cases. and do you think people watching this - these kinds of awful cases. and do i you think people watching this money can have confidence in the 999 system? that is why i think you need expertise in the control rooms. so that you have got that understanding of the nature of domestic abuse and

threats. in the end, as we know, the police are having to pick up the pieces from all kinds of different crises, be they mental health, or other crises and failings elsewhere in the system. they are often overstretched, but we need to make sure that people can have the confidence that if they are in an emergency, the police will be there when they need them. too often, people do not feel that is the case. that is part of the damage i think has been done to policing and the criminaljustice has been done to policing and the criminal justice system has been done to policing and the criminaljustice system over many years. criminal 'ustice system over many ears. . ., ~' criminal 'ustice system over many ears. , ., ~ ., criminal 'ustice system over many ears. ,., ~ ., criminal 'ustice system over many ears. ,., . years. lets talk about asylum. we have talked _ years. lets talk about asylum. we have talked a _ years. lets talk about asylum. we have talked a lot _ years. lets talk about asylum. we have talked a lot in _ years. lets talk about asylum. we have talked a lot in the _ years. lets talk about asylum. we have talked a lot in the studio i have talked a lot in the studio about the rwanda plan, but let's talk about asylum claims. we want to speak about labour�*s principles when it comes to people coming to this country to seek asylum. last year, just under 39,000 people were granted asylum, then there was a further 112,000 who came from hong kong and ukraine. there was a total of 150,000 people coming to this

country, either as refugees are seeking asylum. do you think that number is about right or is it too high? h number is about right or is it too hiuh? ~' number is about right or is it too hiuh? ~ ., ., ., high? i think we have had to respond to very specific _ high? i think we have had to respond to very specific situations. _ high? i think we have had to respond to very specific situations. for - to very specific situations. for example, ukraine and hong kong have been one off situations. ukraine, there was obviously important for all european countries to respond as the nearest neighbours to ukraine. we did so, many families across the country to ken ukrainian families, we have done to ourselves. i think that has been important. in hong kong, again the uk had some very specific obligations. those have both been one off schemes. there were nearly _ both been one off schemes. there were nearly 40,000 _ both been one off schemes. there were nearly 40,000 asylum - both been one off schemes. there were nearly 40,000 asylum claim j both been one off schemes. there l were nearly 40,000 asylum claim is accepted. many of these people arrived here illegally. do you think that number is too high? it is the highest granted since 2002. i think where the problem _ highest granted since 2002. i think where the problem is _ highest granted since 2002. i think where the problem is as _ highest granted since 2002. i think where the problem is as the - highest granted since 2002. i think where the problem is as the boat i where the problem is as the boat crossings. this is undermining our border security and also putting lives at risk. we need action to

stop the dangerous boat crossings. we have to strengthen our border security... we have to strengthen our border security- - -— we have to strengthen our border securi �* ., ., ., security... before we get into that, before we get _ security... before we get into that, before we get into _ security. .. before we get into that, before we get into how— security... before we get into that, before we get into how the - security... before we get into that, before we get into how the system| before we get into how the system actually works. nearly 40,000 people were granted asylum here. that is, as i said, the highest number granted in a year since 2002. on a matter of principle, is that too high or are you comfortable with that number? i high or are you comfortable with that number?— high or are you comfortable with that number? ., ., ~ , ., u, that number? i do not think you can set specific — that number? i do not think you can set specific numbers _ that number? i do not think you can set specific numbers at _ that number? i do not think you can set specific numbers at a _ that number? i do not think you can set specific numbers at a time - that number? i do not think you can set specific numbers at a time when you have to respond to the situation in different parts of the world. what i do think we should be doing is working internationally to make sure that refugees can get support in the region. we used to do much more of that. now a lot of the aid budget that used to be used to make sure that people could get support in neighbouring countries, that they were not exploited by people smugglers, that they did not make these huge long journeys, instead is being used to pay bills for asylum hotels in the uk. we should be

ending the asylum hotel abuse and tackling some of those issues at source. that would be far more effective. i source. that would be far more effective. ., ., source. that would be far more effective-— source. that would be far more effective. ., ., , ,, ., effective. i want to pressure on the --rincile effective. i want to pressure on the principle of — effective. i want to pressure on the principle of this _ effective. i want to pressure on the principle of this number. _ effective. i want to pressure on the principle of this number. as - effective. i want to pressure on the. principle of this number. as 40,000 a number that you are comfortable with any situation with so much disruption and instability in the world or is it something that you would like to come down? it is the highest number since 2002. also, the rate of asylum claims that are esk initially has gone up significantly. it is now about 75%. before the pandemic, it was about a third of initial claims that were accepted. in principle, you comfortable with that as a number?— in principle, you comfortable with that as a number? again, i think you 'ust that as a number? again, i think you just cannot — that as a number? again, i think you just cannot set _ that as a number? again, i think you just cannot set specific _ that as a number? again, i think you just cannot set specific numbers. - just cannot set specific numbers. you have to respond to the circumstances, like we did with ukraine and hong kong. br; circumstances, like we did with ukraine and hong kong.- ukraine and hong kong. by the circumstances _ ukraine and hong kong. by the circumstances we _ ukraine and hong kong. by the circumstances we are _ ukraine and hong kong. by the circumstances we are in - ukraine and hong kong. by the circumstances we are in now, l ukraine and hong kong. by the| circumstances we are in now, is ukraine and hong kong. by the - circumstances we are in now, is that a number you are comfortable with? we should certainly be ending the boat crossings. that means working in partnership, tackling criminal

gangs, strengthening our border security. it also means making sure we have got a properly managed and controlled asylum system. the uk always needs to do our bit to help those who have fled persecution and conflict. however, we also should be making sure that those who have no right to be here are swiftly returned. that is not happening at the moment. in fact, there has been a 50% drop in the returns of those have no right to be here, who are failed cases, since the conservatives took office. that is why we would also set up the new returns and enforcement unit, a major new returns and enforcement unit, to make sure that is turned around. i'd like the reason i am trying to pressure on the number, and our viewers will hear that you do not want to answer that number directly. white there are some people on the left who said we should never set in a number, we should never set in a number, we should take people in need, that is what we should do as a caring and compassionate country. fin what we should do as a caring and compassionate country.— what we should do as a caring and compassionate country. on the other side, there compassionate country. on the other side. there are _ compassionate country. on the other side, there are some _ compassionate country. on the other side, there are some people - compassionate country. on the other side, there are some people who - compassionate country. on the other| side, there are some people who say, if people are in dire need, of

course we must not turn them away, but 40,000, a number that is the highest it has been since 2002 is too many. why won't you give a view on that? i'm not saying you should or not, but i think people want to understand why you will not give a view. ., understand why you will not give a view. . , ., , ., view. there are separate parts to that question. _ view. there are separate parts to that question. the _ view. there are separate parts to that question. the first _ view. there are separate parts to that question. the first is - view. there are separate parts to that question. the first is this - that question. the first is this issue around whether it be ukraine, hong kong, whether it be what has happened in afghanistan, all countries need to respond to situations across the world. secondly, the reason for those figures you are referring to is as a result of the conservatives are losing control of border security along the channel. so there has been along the channel. so there has been a big increase in dangerous boat crossings that has been really damaging both to border security and also putting lives at risk. that is why it is so important to go after the criminal gangs. we should be trying to tackle that. what we also need to do, we have had a debate in parliament, for example, about the kinds of resettlement routes. we do

support there being caps on those sorts of resettlement schemes, making sure that you have properly controlled and managed systems. that is sensible, i think. you need the system to be controlled and managed for people to have confidence in it, but you also need to make sure that the roles are properly enforced. they are not at the moment. that is undermining the credibility of the whole system. d0 undermining the credibility of the whole system-— undermining the credibility of the whole s stem. ,., ~ , whole system. do you think it is the government — whole system. do you think it is the government was _ whole system. do you think it is the government was backdrop - whole system. do you think it is the government was backdrop to - whole system. do you think it is the government was backdrop to create j whole system. do you think it is the i government was backdrop to create a deterrent, which is what the government would say it is doing with its rwanda scheme? let's not rehash the arguments for and against that, but do you believe the government has a responsibility to create a deterrent, to try to stop people making the journey to this country? people making the 'ourney to this count ? ~ ., people making the 'ourney to this count ? ~ . , ., people making the 'ourney to this count ? ~ . ., people making the 'ourney to this count 7~ . ., ., people making the 'ourney to this count 7~ . ., country? whatever you do has to be workable. country? whatever you do has to be workable- the _ country? whatever you do has to be workable. the rwanda _ country? whatever you do has to be workable. the rwanda scheme - country? whatever you do has to be workable. the rwanda scheme willl workable. the rwanda scheme will only ever cover less than 1% of those arriving in the country, to the tune of £400 million being sent to rwanda for a scheme that is sending more home secretaries than asylum seekers to the lander. the

issues around us... at the moment, there is no deterrent for the criminal gangs. they are currently able to operate with impunity, they have been able to take hold along our border. that is why we have set out a major plan which would increase capacity, additional cross—border police to go after the criminal gangs, additional security powers for them so that they can take action against people smugglers, and also a new agreement with europe on that security cooperation so that you can tackle the supply chains, the way that the boats are being shipped across europe, and stop the boats reaching the french border in the first place. that is immensely important. at the moment, prosecutions for people smuggling have dropped by 36%. that is just shocking, it means they are not taking action. just before the _ they are not taking action. just before the close, _ they are not taking action. just before the close, in case you did not hear, humza yousaf has extended an invitation to keir starmer to go to edinburgh with him about what he

will do when he, as he claims, inevitably becomes the prime minister. should he go and see the first minister? i minister. should he go and see the first minister?— first minister? i think people in scotland want _ first minister? i think people in scotland want to _ first minister? i think people in scotland want to see _ first minister? i think people in scotland want to see a - first minister? i think people in scotland want to see a labour l scotland want to see a labour government. we want them to vote labour to do so. at the moment in scotland, they are suffering from having to muck a failing governments. a failing government in westminster and a failing government in scotland. ,, ., westminster and a failing government in scotland. . ., ., westminster and a failing government in scotland. ,, ., ., ., westminster and a failing government in scotland. ,, ., ., . , in scotland. should he go and see him? we are _ in scotland. should he go and see him? we are not— in scotland. should he go and see him? we are not doing _ in scotland. should he go and see him? we are not doing deals - in scotland. should he go and see him? we are not doing deals with j in scotland. should he go and see - him? we are not doing deals with the snp. the important _ him? we are not doing deals with the snp. the important thing _ him? we are not doing deals with the snp. the important thing is— him? we are not doing deals with the snp. the important thing is to - him? we are not doing deals with the snp. the important thing is to have l snp. the important thing is to have a labour government elected to get rid of the conservatives where everything feels broken across the country. low growth, low opportunities, it is time for something better.- opportunities, it is time for something better. opportunities, it is time for somethin: better. ., , , something better. there are plenty of --eole something better. there are plenty of people who _ something better. there are plenty of people who come _ something better. there are plenty of people who come to _ something better. there are plenty of people who come to the - something better. there are plenty of people who come to the studio l something better. there are plenty i of people who come to the studio who would disagree with you, many people watching might disagree, but you have set out labour's position this morning. yvette cooper, thank you. it is nearly ten o'clock — here's what the defence secretary grant shapps had to say about israel's prime minister benjamin netanyahu's firm rejection of a two—state solution for israel and the palestinians. i think it is very disappointing that benjamin

netanyahu has said that. it is not, in some senses, a surprise, he has spent his entire political career against a two state solution. but the point is, which other route is there to seriously resolve this? well, a brief word, nicky. i can see uber animatedly wondering about what yvette cooper had said. i was wondering — yvette cooper had said. i was wondering about _ yvette cooper had said. i was wondering about yvette - yvette cooper had said. i was i wondering about yvette cooper yvette cooper had said. i —" wondering about yvette cooper but also the commission i was cheering. we are going to talk about the covid commission, one of the things you have taken up since you have left the house of commons. there is now going to be a covid memorial day. very briefly, i was asked to chair the uk commission on covid commemoration to remember lives lost, the sacrifices people made to work through it, the contribution of uk science. marie curie had taken up the first recommendation to have a national day of reflection, which will be on the first sunday of march, this year the 3rd of march.

details at day of reflection website. i think it is an important period. for many people it has passed, but for many people they will be living with the loss of a loved one or even long covid, ijust think they were not able to do for a period of time. think they were not able to do for a period of time-— period of time. tom, what do you feel about — period of time. tom, what do you feel about the _ period of time. tom, what do you feel about the covid _ period of time. tom, what do you feel about the covid inquiry? - period of time. tom, what do you feel about the covid inquiry? all. feel about the covid inquiry? all sorts of embarrassments that are going on in the scottish government at the time. we going on in the scottish government at the time. ~ ., going on in the scottish government at the time-— at the time. we want honesty, we want competent _ at the time. we want honesty, we want competent and _ at the time. we want honesty, we want competent and we _ at the time. we want honesty, we want competent and we want - want competent and we want accountability from our politicians. throughout the covert inquiry —— covid _ throughout the covert inquiry —— covid inquiry, we have seen none of that _ covid inquiry, we have seen none of that. ., ., our covid inquiry, we have seen none of that._ our former - that. you feel that? our former first minister _ that. you feel that? our former first minister said _ that. you feel that? our former first minister said she - that. you feel that? our former first minister said she would i that. you feel that? our former i first minister said she would share every— first minister said she would share every piece of information, including whatsapps, then all of a sudden _ including whatsapps, then all of a sudden what's ups have disappeared. there _ sudden what's ups have disappeared. there have _ sudden what's ups have disappeared. there have been lots of cases of disappearing whatsapps. nicola sturgeon put out a bit of a mystery statement yesterday. let's close our conversation this morning with

something enjoyable and fun to look forward to. simon, you are back on the tv tonight with your latest series. we can show people some amazing pictures of you crossing endless icy wastes in patagonia. what is your favourite pet? this bit was very chilly- _ what is your favourite pet? this bit was very chilly. we _ what is your favourite pet? this bit was very chilly. we are _ what is your favourite pet? this bit was very chilly. we are up - what is your favourite pet? this bit was very chilly. we are up any i was very chilly. we are up any patagonian— was very chilly. we are up any patagonian ice _ was very chilly. we are up any patagonian ice field _ was very chilly. we are up any patagonian ice field at - was very chilly. we are up any patagonian ice field at this i was very chilly. we are up any i patagonian ice field at this point. it is a _ patagonian ice field at this point. it is a huge — patagonian ice field at this point. it is a huge area _ patagonian ice field at this point. it is a huge area of— patagonian ice field at this point. it is a huge area of frozen- patagonian ice field at this point. it is a huge area of frozen ice i patagonian ice field at this point. i it is a huge area of frozen ice high in the _ it is a huge area of frozen ice high in the andes— it is a huge area of frozen ice high in the andes mountains _ it is a huge area of frozen ice high in the andes mountains that i it is a huge area of frozen ice highl in the andes mountains that hardly anybody— in the andes mountains that hardly anybody knows _ in the andes mountains that hardly anybody knows about. _ in the andes mountains that hardly anybody knows about. we - in the andes mountains that hardly anybody knows about. we went i in the andes mountains that hardly anybody knows about. we went tol in the andes mountains that hardly- anybody knows about. we went to some of the _ anybody knows about. we went to some of the basque _ anybody knows about. we went to some of the basque great— anybody knows about. we went to some of the basque great wilderness - anybody knows about. we went to some of the basque great wilderness areas i of the basque great wilderness areas on the _ of the basque great wilderness areas on the planet — of the basque great wilderness areas on the planet it _ of the basque great wilderness areas on the planet. it sounds _ of the basque great wilderness areas on the planet. it sounds like - of the basque great wilderness areas on the planet. it sounds like a - on the planet. it sounds like a jolly— on the planet. it sounds like a jolly adventure, _ on the planet. it sounds like a jolly adventure, but _ on the planet. it sounds like a jolly adventure, but i- on the planet. it sounds like a jolly adventure, but i hope i on the planet. it sounds like a i jolly adventure, but i hope there is a serious _ jolly adventure, but i hope there is a serious point _ jolly adventure, but i hope there is a serious point to _ jolly adventure, but i hope there is a serious point to it. _ jolly adventure, but i hope there is a serious point to it. this - jolly adventure, but i hope there is a serious point to it. this is - jolly adventure, but i hope there is a serious point to it. this is a i a serious point to it. this is a reminder— a serious point to it. this is a reminderthat_ a serious point to it. this is a reminder that there - a serious point to it. this is a reminder that there are i a serious point to it. this is a reminder that there are stilll a serious point to it. this is al reminder that there are still a beautiful— reminder that there are still a beautiful magnificent- reminder that there are still a beautiful magnificent planet i reminder that there are still a . beautiful magnificent planet out there _ beautiful magnificent planet out there despite _ beautiful magnificent planet out there. despite everything - beautiful magnificent planet out there. despite everything we i beautiful magnificent planet outl there. despite everything we are doing _ there. despite everything we are doing to — there. despite everything we are doing to destroy— there. despite everything we are doing to destroy it, _ there. despite everything we are doing to destroy it, there - there. despite everything we are doing to destroy it, there is- there. despite everything we are doing to destroy it, there is a i doing to destroy it, there is a planet— doing to destroy it, there is a planet worth _ doing to destroy it, there is a planet worth believing - doing to destroy it, there is a planet worth believing in i doing to destroy it, there is a planet worth believing in and | planet worth believing in and fighting — planet worth believing in and fighting for~ _ planet worth believing in and fighting for. these _ planet worth believing in and i fighting for. these wilderness planet worth believing in and - fighting for. these wilderness areas matter— fighting for. these wilderness areas matter to _ fighting for. these wilderness areas matter to us, — fighting for. these wilderness areas matter to us, these _ fighting for. these wilderness areas matter to us, these places- fighting for. these wilderness areas matter to us, these places matter. fighting for. these wilderness areasi matter to us, these places matter to us, we _ matter to us, these places matter to us, we are _ matter to us, these places matter to us, we are connected _ matter to us, these places matter to us, we are connected to _ matter to us, these places matter to us, we are connected to one - us, we are connected to one ecosystem — us, we are connected to one ecosystem on _ us, we are connected to one ecosystem on this _ us, we are connected to one ecosystem on this planet. i us, we are connected to one. ecosystem on this planet. we us, we are connected to one - ecosystem on this planet. we need to recognise _ ecosystem on this planet. we need to recognise that — ecosystem on this planet. we need to recognise that the _ ecosystem on this planet. we need to recognise that the billions _ ecosystem on this planet. we need to recognise that the billions of - ecosystem on this planet. we need to recognise that the billions of trees i recognise that the billions of trees in the _ recognise that the billions of trees in the heart — recognise that the billions of trees in the heart of— recognise that the billions of trees in the heart of the _ recognise that the billions of trees in the heart of the congo - in the heart of the congo rainforest, _ in the heart of the congo rainforest, for—

in the heart of the congo rainforest, for example, | in the heart of the congo i rainforest, for example, are in the heart of the congo - rainforest, for example, are an integral— rainforest, for example, are an integral part _ rainforest, for example, are an integral part part _ rainforest, for example, are an integral part part of— rainforest, for example, are an integral part part of the - rainforest, for example, are an- integral part part of the ecosystem on which _ integral part part of the ecosystem on which we — integral part part of the ecosystem on which we depend. _ integral part part of the ecosystem on which we depend. underlying i integral part part of the ecosystem i on which we depend. underlying the 'olly on which we depend. underlying the jolly adventure — on which we depend. underlying the jolly adventure and _ on which we depend. underlying the jolly adventure and everything - on which we depend. underlying the jolly adventure and everything else i jolly adventure and everything else in the _ jolly adventure and everything else in the programme _ jolly adventure and everything else in the programme there _ jolly adventure and everything else in the programme there is- jolly adventure and everything else in the programme there is a - jolly adventure and everything else in the programme there is a hope i in the programme there is a hope that wilderness— in the programme there is a hope that wilderness matters - in the programme there is a hope that wilderness matters to - in the programme there is a hope that wilderness matters to us i in the programme there is a hopej that wilderness matters to us and in the programme there is a hope i that wilderness matters to us and do still matter~ — that wilderness matters to us and do still matter~ lt— that wilderness matters to us and do still matter. ., , that wilderness matters to us and do still matter-— still matter. it nearly did go quite wronu. is still matter. it nearly did go quite wrong- is it _ still matter. it nearly did go quite wrong. is it true _ still matter. it nearly did go quite wrong. is it true a _ still matter. it nearly did go quite wrong. is it true a lion _ still matter. it nearly did go quite wrong. is it true a lion tried i still matter. it nearly did go quite wrong. is it true a lion tried to i wrong. is it true a lion tried to get into your tent? i wrong. is it true a lion tried to get into your tent?— wrong. is it true a lion tried to get into your tent? i do not think itt to get into your tent? i do not think it try to get _ get into your tent? i do not think it try to get in. — get into your tent? i do not think it try to get in. it _ get into your tent? i do not think it try to get in, it was _ get into your tent? i do not think it try to get in, it was trying i get into your tent? i do not think it try to get in, it was trying to i it try to get in, it was trying to lick some _ it try to get in, it was trying to lick some moisture _ it try to get in, it was trying to lick some moisture of- it try to get in, it was trying to lick some moisture of the i it try to get in, it was trying to lick some moisture of the site| it try to get in, it was trying to . lick some moisture of the site of the tent — lick some moisture of the site of the tent. when— lick some moisture of the site of the tent. when you _ lick some moisture of the site of the tent. when you get - lick some moisture of the site of the tent. when you get into- lick some moisture of the site of. the tent. when you get into those wild places. — the tent. when you get into those wild places, unpredictable - the tent. when you get into those wild places, unpredictable stuff. wild places, unpredictable stuff happens — wild places, unpredictable stuff happens. you _ wild places, unpredictable stuff happens. you have _ wild places, unpredictable stuff happens. you have to - wild places, unpredictable stuff happens. you have to react i wild places, unpredictable stuff happens. you have to react asi wild places, unpredictable stuff- happens. you have to react as best you can _ happens. you have to react as best you can we — happens. you have to react as best you can. we accepted _ happens. you have to react as best you can. we accepted that - happens. you have to react as best you can. we accepted that as i happens. you have to react as best you can. we accepted that as part. happens. you have to react as best. you can. we accepted that as part of the adventure — you can. we accepted that as part of the adventure and _ you can. we accepted that as part of the adventure and experience. i you can. we accepted that as part of the adventure and experience. yes, | you can. we accepted that as part ofl the adventure and experience. yes, i am getting _ the adventure and experience. yes, i am getting slightly— the adventure and experience. yes, i am getting slightly sweaty _ the adventure and experience. yes, i am getting slightly sweaty palms i the adventure and experience. yes, i am getting slightly sweaty palms at i am getting slightly sweaty palms at the memory— am getting slightly sweaty palms at the memory of— am getting slightly sweaty palms at the memory of that _ am getting slightly sweaty palms at the memory of that moment. - am getting slightly sweaty palms at the memory of that moment. that. am getting slightly sweaty palms at i the memory of that moment. that was a very— the memory of that moment. that was a very scary— the memory of that moment. that was a very scary moment _ the memory of that moment. that was a very scary moment in _ the memory of that moment. that was a very scary moment in my— the memory of that moment. that was a very scary moment in my little - a very scary moment in my little tent _ a very scary moment in my little tent on — a very scary moment in my little tent on my— a very scary moment in my little tent on my own _ a very scary moment in my little tent on my own. we— a very scary moment in my little tent on my own.— a very scary moment in my little tent on my own. we are very pleased that the lion — tent on my own. we are very pleased that the lion did — tent on my own. we are very pleased that the lion did not _ tent on my own. we are very pleased that the lion did not get _ tent on my own. we are very pleased that the lion did not get you. - tent on my own. we are very pleased that the lion did not get you. thank l that the lion did not get you. thank you all forjoining us in the politicaljungle today. i sure the latest series will be great, they have been huge hits previously.

tom, nicky, and simon, thank you for being part of our adventure today. we have been trying to work out how our politicians can manage risks abroad and here at home. did we manage to get to the bottom of it? we give it a go. with everything going on in 2024, we will have plenty more conversations on these issues in the coming weeks. thanks for watching, and i'll see you later on today's edition of newscast with paddy o'connell. of course, you can always catch up on iplayer, too. but if telly on the sofa is enough for you, huge thanks for watching, and i'll look forward to seeing you next sunday, of course, same time, same place. goodbye.

live from london. this is bbc news.

the health ministry in gaza say that more than 25,000 people have now been killed since israel began its offensive against hamas. the us blames iranian—backed militants in iraq for a ballistic missiles strike on an airbase used by american troops. a new storm is set to hit the uk with gusts of wind of up to 80mph and a risk to life. republican hopeful nikki haley questions donald trump's mentalfitness — after he appeared to confuse her with the democrat politican nancy pelosi. we have a country in disarray and a world on fire, and we need to know that we are not giving our kids options of two 80—year—olds going into a presidency. hello, i'm lewis vaughanjones.