towards ireland at western scotland towards the end of the afternoon but those temperatures, 9—13 at best. as we head through thursday night, this frontal system pushing eastwards will give a short, sharp burst of heavy rain and squally winds, not widespread windy weather but it might wake up tomorrow night into friday. what it will leave behind, as you can see, it's sunny skies. a beautiful day on friday, aside from some wintry showers in the north, some wintry showers in the north, some snow over the high ground in scotland. it will feel more chilly for a time on friday but that will not last. mild air is set to return as we head into the weekend. these south—westerly winds back with us and so temperatures are set to climb. fora lot and so temperatures are set to climb. for a lot of places over the weekend, it will be largely dry and there will be some spells of sunshine. as you can see, as we head through saturday and particularly into sunday, the temperatures up to 12-14, into sunday, the temperatures up to 12—14, so above where they should be for the time of year. some rain across the north and west of the uk at times, quite breezy but certainly

nothing as windy as we saw earlier on in the week. that hello. ukraine doesn't deny shooting down a russian plane inside russia, killing we're told, ukranian prisoners. 700 days in — how dangerous a moment is this? our defence editor, mark urban, is here to explain the significance. ukraine nears the second anniversary of russia's invasion full of uncertainty — has western commitment faltered? and how much more can they send

even if they want to? we'll ask a ukrainian mp and the former us ambassador to nato. coming up... what do the post office scandal, me too, newsnight�*s investigation into university hospitals birmingham foundation trust and the tavistock gender identity clinic have in common? all featured whistleblowers — and some of them weren't protected by the law that's supposed to keep them safe. time for a new whistleblowers bill, say these two women. we'll talk to the chair of the parliamentary group on whistleblowing and the head of whistlebowers uk in ten minutes. and this.. will you shut up, man? ..after both winning in new hampshire, donald trump and president biden are getting ready for the rematch. joe was there as the results came in. nikki haley struggles on. as we turn our attention to the former and possible future president s legal troubles. also tonight... in hong kong, he's been detained for more than 1,000 days.

now, un special raporteurs call for the immmediate release of british citizen and billionaire democracy activistjimmy lai. good evening. if you watched the 10 o�*clock news you'll know russia is accusing ukraine of shooting down one of russia's own military planes, killing, moscow says, 65 ukrainian prisoners of war. ukraine tonight released a statement saying it was up to russia to ensure the safety of those on board, which you'll notice isn't a denial, and in the last hour we've heard from ukraine's president zelensky, who's calling for an international investigation accusing russia of "playing" with the lives of prisoners. what we're going to do on our programme this evening is hearfrom our defence editor, mark urban, who will explain why we can't draw any conclusions so far about who was reponsible for this and whether this makes the region an even more dangerous place. and we'll talk live to people who can explain what it's like in ukraine right now as we approach the two—year anniversary of the full—scale invasion and a former us ambassador to nato about what happens

if ukraine doesn't get more aid and weapons and soon. starting with the plane crash, mark, and how that fits into the bigger picture? and how that fits into the bigger icture? ~ ., ., picture? well, we have got some imaaes picture? well, we have got some images here _ picture? well, we have got some images here taken _ picture? well, we have got some images here taken by _ picture? well, we have got some images here taken by local - picture? well, we have got some | images here taken by local people picture? well, we have got some - images here taken by local people of the aircraft, an ilyushin—76, in the last seconds as it falls to earth and then this huge explosion. i think what you can say is that you see the front half of the fuselage breaking offjust before it impacts and then there is also visible in the sky puff of smoke which i think a lot of analysts are looking at as saying, this was a blast, a missile blast, that shocked the plane down, and the collapse of the plane just before it hits the ground shows that it was breaking up in the final stages of its flight. now, the big question of course is who is missile? there have been russian planes accidentally shot down by russian missiles before in this conflict. equally, we've also seen just before christmas for example a

new technique being used by the ukrainians which they call an ambush using their most capable, longest range system, the patriot missile, moving it right up as close to the russians as they dare, to reach deep into russian airspace and just before christmas they shot down three russian fighters in that type of operation. so, the question is, is that what they were doing today, did they shoot it down, and then the secondary question, of course, is the moscow claim that the 65 ukrainian prisoners were on board true? that is the really difficult issue. and i think president zelensky tonight has a slightly left us wondering. earlier in the day people were pooh—poohing this russian suggestion that the prisoners were on board, saying footage of the crash site did not seem to show bodies, and there were other reasons to doubt their version of events. but now president zelensky calling for this investigation, he's are certainly not denying it, as you said at the top of the programme, and that comes

at a very tricky moment i think for ukraine as it is trying to work out what it can actually achieve in the coming weeks of fighting, given that its supply of people, weapons and of money is now of uncertainties. a salvo of russian missiles fired towards targets across ukraine yesterday and causing heavy casualties in kharkiv. in all, 37 missiles were fired, 16 of which the ukrainian defences, 16 of which beat ukrainian defences, part of a pattern where those forces are stretched and dealing with hold—ups to re—supplies of missiles and indeed supplies more generally due to a $60 billion funding deadlock in washington. if you're a ukrainian, you face uncertainty because you don't know whether you will be getting a steady pipeline of ammunition, whether you'll be getting f—i6s with sufficient training for your pilots, whether you're

going to be able to, frankly, feed your troops. the assistance that we provide ukraine just on the military side alone, which is what this $60 billion package is all about, is significant. so, there's uncertainty but there's also the question of what countries are able to do. back in late summer we visited an artillery battery that was equipped with soviet—era self—propelled guns. there weren't enough new western weapons to replace them, and now, the western ones that were sent are low on ammunition because ukraine's allies can't make it fast enough. i was in touch with a friend of mine who fights almost two years in donbas, and he writes to me that right now they have, in months, what they used to have in a day, when defending kyiv. he is in artillery, so he is speaking artillery

shells, 155mm, and this is quite frankly horrifying. this week european leaders have pledged to fulfil a commitment to supply i million artillery shells that they failed to meet last year. we have just concluded contracts worth 1.2 billion us dollars to buy hundreds of thousands of rounds of 155mm artillery ammunition. russia's war in ukraine has become a battle for ammunition, so it is important that allies refill their own stocks as we continue to support ukraine. as for the us, uncertainties about the supply of weapons from their side make it very hard for the ukrainian army to plan its operations for the coming months. i spent almost a decade in the senate as a senior staffer

and i remain optimistic that the adults will prevail, as we like to say, that essentially congress will end up doing the right thing, but they always wait until the last minute, they wait until they absolutely must make a decision in order to drag out the negotiations, to try to get a better position. europe's funding has also been delayed because of a row with the hungarian leader viktor 0rban. hungary is a special case, it's a former empire, and russia is conducting an absolutely imperialist war and acting as a former empire that is dragging former colony into its shadow. but other than that, i think europe is an island of sanity in a rather insane world, quite frankly, so i don't want to badmouth european union in any way, shape. shouting. across the atlantic from this "island of sanity", yesterday's

new hampshire primary has confirmed those who fear the prospect of a trump presidency in all their worries. we've won almost every single poll in the last three months against crooked joe biden. applause. sustaining the ukraine war has never been exactly easy, but with a trump white house, the picture could change dramatically. let's speak now to... maria mezentseva, a ukrainian mp in president zelensky�*s party who also holds key roles related to ukraine's relationship with europe. kurt volker, former us ambassador to nato and special representative for ukraine negotiations under president trump, until he resigned in 2019. and 0rysia lutsevych, head of the ukraine programme at chatham house, a foreign affairs think—tank welcome all of you, thank you very much for being with us. first of all, maria mezentseva, president zelensky isn't denying this could

have been a missile from ukraine that brought down the russian plane. president zelensky is cancelling all his plans for tomorrow, what should our british audience read into that? i think he was very clear enough addressing this issue to the world by saying that we are calling for an impartial investigation, an international one. further on, i would like to remind us all that backin would like to remind us all that back in the days when the war erupted in 2014, and this is according to the european court of human rights, a confirmed case, the mh 16 was a passengerjet flying to malaysia with enormous amount of civilians on board, passengers, who were shot down by a russian system on the occupied territory of ukraine. so, we do call for an investigation asap. i

ukraine. so, we do call for an investigation asap.— ukraine. so, we do call for an investigation asap. i want to ask ou as we investigation asap. i want to ask you as we head _ investigation asap. i want to ask you as we head for— investigation asap. i want to ask you as we head for two _ investigation asap. i want to ask you as we head for two years - investigation asap. i want to ask i you as we head for two years since the full—scale invasion, i take your point about 2014, of course, how are you dealing with the prospect of this moving into either a third year oran this moving into either a third year or an eighth year?— this moving into either a third year or an eighth year? indeed. it is 700 ears of or an eighth year? indeed. it is 700 years of the — or an eighth year? indeed. it is 700 years of the full-scale _ or an eighth year? indeed. it is 700 years of the full-scale today, - or an eighth year? indeed. it is 700 years of the full-scale today, and i years of the full—scale today, and almost ten years of the war ongoing in the centre of europe, in ukraine. how i feel personally, i feel that we do need to protect civilians and critical infrastructure in the cities which are hosting millions of people, like my home city kharkiv and dnipro, 0desa, kyiv. he have has the systems of patriot and others which were given by our partners from the nato, but we do need more. living 40 kilometres from the russian border myself, i can tell you that sometimes a soviet tight missile arrives before the siren

goes off and i never know if i wake up goes off and i never know if i wake up the next morning when i go to bed. same goes for many ukrainians, many millions who are living next to the border, and not only that, today, many rockets have reached the western parts like lviv and other towns, it means that our priority todayis towns, it means that our priority today is to talk about air defence, same thing bespoke on the 24th of february 2022, and other priorities which, as you have said, artillery, storm shadow, by the way, thank you for that, of course the drone section which we are developing ourselves but you help us a lot, and the perspective of global security. nato membership is a political decision, we are very much looking forward to washington, as of now, our brave armed forces having even 40,000 women serving in the armed forces, which is a nato standard, even higher than that, we are very much expecting packages from us and of course the nato allies in

general. of course the nato allies in ueneral. ., of course the nato allies in general-— of course the nato allies in ueneral. ., ., general. let me move to fu'i sanroko i'm sor , general. let me move to fu'i sanroko i'm sorry. i — general. let me move to fu'i sanroko m sorry. i said * general. let me move to fu'i sanroko i'm sorry, i said the h general. let me move to fu'i sanroko i'm sorry, i said the eighth _ general. let me move to fuji sanroko i'm sorry, i said the eighth year, - general. let me move to fuji sanroko i'm sorry, i said the eighth year, i - i'm sorry, i said the eighth year, i met the tenth year. cue for being with us, kurt volker, you just heard from a ukrainian mp who told us she does not know if she will wake up in the morning because she may have been killed by a russian missile. and yet we seem to be witnessing the collapse of support for ukraine in the united states? ida. collapse of support for ukraine in the united states?— collapse of support for ukraine in the united states? no, that is not correct. the united states? no, that is not correct what _ the united states? no, that is not correct. what we _ the united states? no, that is not correct. what we are _ the united states? no, that is not correct. what we are seeing - the united states? no, that is not correct. what we are seeing is - the united states? no, that is not correct. what we are seeing is a i correct. what we are seeing is a delay— correct. what we are seeing is a delay in— correct. what we are seeing is a delay in providing military assistance that is desperately needed, _ assistance that is desperately needed, and there is a majority of both republicans and democrats in both republicans and democrats in both the _ both republicans and democrats in both the house and the senate in favour_ both the house and the senate in favour of— both the house and the senate in favour of providing this aid, also a majority— favour of providing this aid, also a majority in — favour of providing this aid, also a majority in public opinion that suaport— majority in public opinion that support military aid to ukraine. but it is held _ support military aid to ukraine. but it is held up — support military aid to ukraine. but it is held up because of another issue _ it is held up because of another issue which is attached to it which issue which is attached to it which is the _ issue which is attached to it which is the funding for the us mexico harden — is the funding for the us mexico border. that is a situation that has gotten _ border. that is a situation that has gotten out — border. that is a situation that has gotten out of control and a lot of people _ gotten out of control and a lot of people want to see that we are dealing — people want to see that we are dealing not only with ukraineand

security— dealing not only with ukraineand security needs but also with america's security needs, that is hung _ america's security needs, that is hung up — america's security needs, that is hung up in — america's security needs, that is hung up in negotiations in the senate — hung up in negotiations in the senate and house but it will eventually get passed, once we get through— eventually get passed, once we get through that border deal issue, the votes _ through that border deal issue, the votes will— through that border deal issue, the votes will be there for the ukraine aid. �* ., votes will be there for the ukraine aid. �* . ., , aid. but i have interviewed a number of --eole aid. but i have interviewed a number of peeple who _ aid. but i have interviewed a number of people who have _ aid. but i have interviewed a number of people who have told _ aid. but i have interviewed a number of people who have told me - aid. but i have interviewed a number of people who have told me that, - aid. but i have interviewed a number of people who have told me that, it | of people who have told me that, it is going to happen, it is going to happen, it has been four months already, they need it now? well, it has been a — already, they need it now? well, it has been a long — already, they need it now? well, it has been a long time, _ already, they need it now? well, it has been a long time, and - already, they need it now? well, it has been a long time, and yes, - already, they need it now? well, it| has been a long time, and yes, they need _ has been a long time, and yes, they need it— has been a long time, and yes, they need it now. — has been a long time, and yes, they need it now, and i am even getting some _ need it now, and i am even getting some reports of forces on the front line facing — some reports of forces on the front line facing diminished ammunition soppiies. — line facing diminished ammunition supplies, so it is very serious. but we all— supplies, so it is very serious. but we all live — supplies, so it is very serious. but we all live in— supplies, so it is very serious. but we all live in democracies, we all have _ we all live in democracies, we all have to _ we all live in democracies, we all have to deal with politics, this is something that has gotten tangled up but again— something that has gotten tangled up but again i am very confident that it will_ but again i am very confident that it will go— but again i am very confident that it will go through, just as i am confident— it will go through, just as i am confident that the european union will get _ confident that the european union will get the budgetary support through as well, despite viktor 0rban's— through as well, despite viktor 0rban's objections. we through as well, despite viktor 0rban's objections.— through as well, despite viktor 0rban's objections. 0rban's ob'ections. we will see. let me brina 0rban's objections. we will see. let me bring in — 0rban's objections. we will see. let me bring in 0rysia _ 0rban's objections. we will see. let me bring in 0rysia lutsevych, - 0rban's objections. we will see. let me bring in 0rysia lutsevych, if - 0rban's objections. we will see. let me bring in 0rysia lutsevych, if the| me bring in 0rysia lutsevych, if the latest of support from the west does not come, what are the applications for ukraine?

we are facing the consequences of the strategic decision by the white house _ the strategic decision by the white house to— the strategic decision by the white house to deter russia the opportunity to win over ukraine, but not to— opportunity to win over ukraine, but not to enable ukraine to have enough capabilities to retake its territory and to _ capabilities to retake its territory and to successfully defeat russian troops _ and to successfully defeat russian troops on — and to successfully defeat russian troops on the battlefield. so the aid, the — troops on the battlefield. so the aid, the assistance was coming very slowlv _ aid, the assistance was coming very slowlv we — aid, the assistance was coming very slowly. we do remember how everything was impossible. the tanks were impossible. the rocket missiles were impossible. the rocket missiles were impossible. the rocket missiles were impossible. so this compounded to a problem that we face today, and that means _ to a problem that we face today, and that means basically the front line may collapse. i mean, ukrainians are building _ may collapse. i mean, ukrainians are building defences along the very lon- building defences along the very long front line, but there are risks especially— long front line, but there are risks especially around the dnieper, putin need some — especially around the dnieper, putin need some kind of victory for his coronation — need some kind of victory for his coronation in march, he needs to tell the _

coronation in march, he needs to tell the russians they are winning, which _ tell the russians they are winning, which is _ tell the russians they are winning, which is not the case at the moment. we also _ which is not the case at the moment. we also may— which is not the case at the moment. we also may use the opportunity ukraine — we also may use the opportunity ukraine created in the black sea, they pushed the russian black sea fleet to _ they pushed the russian black sea fleet to the edge of the azov sea, but the _ fleet to the edge of the azov sea, but the russians may return if they are not— but the russians may return if they are not threatening their positions, we may— are not threatening their positions, we may see — are not threatening their positions, we may see a collapse of the grain corridor~ _ we may see a collapse of the grain corridor. and if russians are taking the territory, ukrainians will be playing. — the territory, ukrainians will be playing, ukrainians will be going into europe, into the uk and the country— into europe, into the uk and the country will be suffering tremendous loss of— country will be suffering tremendous loss of human capital. does country will be suffering tremendous loss of human capital.— loss of human capital. does ukraine have enough — loss of human capital. does ukraine have enough ammunition _ loss of human capital. does ukraine have enough ammunition right - loss of human capital. does ukraine | have enough ammunition right now? loss of human capital. does ukraine - have enough ammunition right now? at this moment, the ratio is 61. russians— this moment, the ratio is 61. russians have six times more artillery. _ russians have six times more artillery, munitions that the ukrainians on the battlefield. they have a _ ukrainians on the battlefield. they have a lot — ukrainians on the battlefield. they have a lot of drone reconnaissance, they see _ have a lot of drone reconnaissance, they see russian targets, but they have two _ they see russian targets, but they have two or three missiles a day they— have two or three missiles a day they can — have two or three missiles a day they can use and that is it. maria, it is a far larger _ they can use and that is it. maria, it is a far larger population - they can use and that is it. maria, it is a far larger population in - it is a far larger population in russia, they have as many men as they need to keep fighting this war. but in ukraine, a mobilisation bill was brought forward, it has now been

put on hold, they will reduce the age at which men can be called up at 25 and they will have to fight for 36 months potentially. if the army doesn't get the half a million men in ukraine it says it needs, what does that mean for you? i in ukraine it says it needs, what does that mean for you? i would say the recent initiatives _ does that mean for you? i would say the recent initiatives of _ does that mean for you? i would say the recent initiatives of the - the recent initiatives of the channal— the recent initiatives of the channel and _ the recent initiatives of the channel and the _ the recent initiatives of the channel and the minister. the recent initiatives of the| channel and the minister of the recent initiatives of the - channel and the minister of defence and my— channel and the minister of defence and my colleague _ channel and the minister of defence and my colleague in _ channel and the minister of defence and my colleague in the _ channel and the minister of defence and my colleague in the parliamentl and my colleague in the parliament and my colleague in the parliament and the _ and my colleague in the parliament and the efforts _ and my colleague in the parliament and the efforts of— and my colleague in the parliament and the efforts of the _ and my colleague in the parliament and the efforts of the community . and my colleague in the parliament l and the efforts of the community and the parliament— and the efforts of the community and the parliament have _ and the efforts of the community and the parliament have brought- and the efforts of the community and the parliament have brought forwardl the parliament have brought forward plans with _ the parliament have brought forward plans with vast — the parliament have brought forward plans with vast support _ the parliament have brought forward plans with vast support in _ the parliament have brought forward plans with vast support in the - plans with vast support in the house, — plans with vast support in the house, so _ plans with vast support in the house, so zero _ plans with vast support in the house, so zero tolerance to l house, so zero tolerance to corruption _ house, so zero tolerance to corruption will— house, so zero tolerance to corruption will bring - house, so zero tolerance to corruption will bring the - corruption will bring the mobilisation _ corruption will bring the mobilisation process- corruption will bring the - mobilisation process further to better— mobilisation process further to better standards _ mobilisation process further to better standards and _ mobilisation process further to better standards and nato - mobilisation process further to - better standards and nato standards. 0ne better standards and nato standards. one thing. _ better standards and nato standards. one thing. the— better standards and nato standards. one thing, the office _ better standards and nato standards. one thing, the office of— better standards and nato standards. one thing, the office of ombudsmanl one thing, the office of ombudsman is issuing _ 0ne thing, the office of ombudsman is issuing special— 0ne thing, the office of ombudsman is issuing special representatives- is issuing special representatives in the _ is issuing special representatives in the region—

is issuing special representatives in the region to _ is issuing special representatives in the region to follow _ is issuing special representatives in the region to follow the - in the region to follow the situation _ in the region to follow the situation. and _ in the region to follow the situation. and as - in the region to follow the - situation. and as parliamentarians, we will— situation. and as parliamentarians, we will definitely— situation. and as parliamentarians, we will definitely be _ situation. and as parliamentarians, we will definitely be there - situation. and as parliamentarians, we will definitely be there for- situation. and as parliamentarians, we will definitely be there for it. i we will definitely be there for it. kurt volker, _ we will definitely be there for it. kurt volker, i— we will definitely be there for it. kurt volker, i am _ we will definitely be there for it. kurt volker, i am really - we will definitely be there for it. . kurt volker, i am really interested in your thoughts of another president trump term if he wins at the end of this year, you know him and you were a special envoy under trump for ukraine. we know what he said about ukraine. he would pull us support with the click of a finger. what does it mean for ukraine if trump wins?— what does it mean for ukraine if trump wins? first, the election is far from over. _ trump wins? first, the election is far from over. we _ trump wins? first, the election is far from over. we did _ trump wins? first, the election is far from over. we did have - trump wins? first, the election is far from over. we did have the i farfrom over. we did have the primary in new hampshire yesterday. trump won that primary with 54% of the vote, nikki haley did surprisingly well compared to previous opinion polls. and this is going to go on for some time. so we don't know right now whether trump is going to be the nominee. and if he is the nominee, all the polls show he will have a harder time beating joe biden van nikki haley would, so we don't know what will happen the general election. but if we take the assumption that trump is elected, we honestly don't know what he would do as president. i'm not

sure he knows at this point either. we do know what he would do. we know he likes president putin. we know he said he would not be spending any more money on helping ukraine. weill. more money on helping ukraine. well, no. so more money on helping ukraine. well, no- so take — more money on helping ukraine. well, no- so take the — more money on helping ukraine. well, no. so take the last _ more money on helping ukraine. well, no. so take the last time _ more money on helping ukraine. -ii no. so take the last time here, he always held out a hand to vladimir putin, we had a very strange press conference you will remember in helsinki in 2017. yet at the same time, trump lifted the 0bama era arms embargo on homes for ukraine, he closed down the russian consulate in san francisco and drew out a bunch of intelligence officers and increased actions in russia. so there is a mixture of things and we would expect the same thing again —— arms for ukraine. he has been clear he said he would end the war in one day, but we don't know what that means or how he would do that and it clearly doesn't seem very plausible to any others who watch this every day. and the situation is going to evolve for another year before he might be sitting in the 0val evolve for another year before he might be sitting in the oval office again, so there isjust might be sitting in the oval office again, so there is just a might be sitting in the oval office again, so there isjust a lot might be sitting in the oval office again, so there is just a lot we don't know. again, so there is 'ust a lot we don-t mph again, so there is 'ust a lot we don't know. , ., ., don't know. very enough, we hear ou. don't know. very enough, we hear

you- thank — don't know. very enough, we hear you- thank you — don't know. very enough, we hear you. thank you very _ don't know. very enough, we hear you. thank you very much - don't know. very enough, we hear you. thank you very much for - don't know. very enough, we hearl you. thank you very much for being with us this evening, we appreciated, thank you. what have the post office scandal, rotherham, rochdale, the newsnight investigations into university hospitals birmingham foundation trust and the tavistock gender identity clinic, #metoo, yorkshire cricket, and the lucy letby cases have in common? in all of them, whistleblowers went to either management orjournalists to highlight criminal behaviour, negligence, corruption or mismanagement that costs lives and also cost taxpayers and businesses billions of pounds. a nurse has been convicted of murdering babies. she was sentenced to life, after being convicted of murdering seven babies and attempting to kill a further six. but when colleagues of nurse lucy letby tried to raise concerns about her, they were told to stop. whistleblowing can require ordinary people to take extraordinary risks.

it takes courage to publicly call out a colleague or employer. a newsnight investigation last year heard from whistleblowers at university hospitals birmingham, who said a climate of fear amongst staff was putting patients at risk. if senior management can't run a hospital properly and don't want to listen to feedback, criticism about patient safety issues, then who suffers in the end? it's the patients. and if they can't be bothered, well, somebody has to speak up on behalf of the patients. and ifelt a moral obligation to speak out about this because what happens in birmingham, what happens to birmingham patients is just shocking. if fujitsu had felt able to go to the post office executives at the time and say openly — without fearing for theirjobs — yes, horizon software was faulty, perhaps over 700 sub—postmasters wouldn't have ended up being wrongly convicted.

the numbers, on their own, tell an extraordinary story. the national crime agency reports that the cost of fraud, for example, to the uk economy is 190 billion per year. the association of fraud examiners report that whistleblowers have been responsible for the recovery of over £85 billion — which is why, say some politicians and campaigners, it's time for a new whistleblowing bill, which would define whistleblowing in law and set up a new office of the whistleblower, which will be the champion for those who speak up. here in the studio is conservative mp mary robinson, who is chair of the all party parliamentary group for whistleblowing, an independent group of politicians looking into the issue. mary presented her private members' bills to the commons today, which may be linked to the fact that you were coming on newsnight tonight. and also with us, the chief executive of the not—for—profit organisation whistleblowersuk, georgina halford—hall. thank you very much for being with

us. georgina, iwant thank you very much for being with us. georgina, i want you to lay out for our audience what it takes to be a whistle—blower. i for our audience what it takes to be a whistle-blower.— a whistle-blower. i think starting with horizon _ a whistle-blower. i think starting with horizon as _ a whistle-blower. i think starting with horizon as it _ a whistle-blower. i think starting with horizon as it was _ a whistle-blower. i think starting with horizon as it was on - a whistle-blower. i think starting with horizon as it was on the - a whistle-blower. i think starting | with horizon as it was on the clip, that encapsulates everything that is wrong with the system. and it makes whistleblowers into victims. whistleblowers have to be not courageous when they first start because most are just doing their job, they arejust because most are just doing their job, they are just doing the right thing, that is what we're told in call after call and e—mail after e—mail. but what they'd then need in order to carry it through, to ensure that patient safety happens and ensure that in this case that people who have been wrongly convicted are identified and helped, they need huge amounts of courage. because the system as it stands is a minefield. you need a law degree to be able to get anywhere near it and it leaves far too many people who try to do the right thing out of a job. it

wrecks their marriages. it wrecks their health, their mental health and their physical health. and it completely and utterly takes away from their finances. completely and utterly takes away from theirfinances. so completely and utterly takes away from their finances. so we hear this issue or this expression used witches, david versus goliath. this is completely wrong. somebody who is doing the right thing should be supported by the legislation, by our government, by our regulators and not have to suffer on their own. hagar not have to suffer on their own. how many people — not have to suffer on their own. how many people across _ not have to suffer on their own. how many people across fujitsu and the post office have contacted your organisation since mr bates versus the post office was on itv? this oii the post office was on itv? as of toda , the post office was on itv? as of today. we — the post office was on itv? as of today. we have — the post office was on itv? as of today, we have had _ the post office was on itv? as of today, we have had 13 _ the post office was on itv? as of today, we have had 13 now. - the post office was on itv? as of today, we have had 13 now. and. the post office was on itv? as of i today, we have had 13 now. and are ou able today, we have had 13 now. and are you able to — today, we have had 13 now. and are you able to tell— today, we have had 13 now. and are you able to tell me _ today, we have had 13 now. and are you able to tell me how— today, we have had 13 now. and are you able to tell me how many - today, we have had 13 now. and are you able to tell me how many from | you able to tell me how many from each organisation or not? to you able to tell me how many from each organisation or not?— each organisation or not? to be honest with _ each organisation or not? to be honest with you, _ each organisation or not? to be honest with you, i _ each organisation or not? to be honest with you, i cannot, - each organisation or not? to be honest with you, i cannot, i - each organisation or not? to be honest with you, i cannot, i did| each organisation or not? to be . honest with you, i cannot, i did not because i am really convinced that there would be a hunt for the whistleblowers and the whistleblowers and the whistleblowers cannot afford to lose theirjobs. 50 whistleblowers cannot afford to lose their 'obs. whistleblowers cannot afford to lose their “obs. .,

whistleblowers cannot afford to lose their 'obs. ., ., their 'obs. so even now? there would be a theirjobs. so even now? there would be a hunt for— theirjobs. so even now? there would be a hunt for the _ theirjobs. so even now? there would be a hunt for the whistleblowers - be a hunt for the whistleblowers within those organisations can you believe? ., , within those organisations can you believe? . , ., ., , believe? that is what we are being told by whistleblowers _ believe? that is what we are being told by whistleblowers within - believe? that is what we are being| told by whistleblowers within those organisations that people are trying to stifle their concerns and they are really not taking these issues seriously. and they are not new, some of the whistleblowers are telling us they have been expressing their concerns and sharing evidence for years. their concerns and sharing evidence for ears. a , their concerns and sharing evidence for ears. , for years. mary robinson, newsnight over many months _ for years. mary robinson, newsnight over many months looked _ for years. mary robinson, newsnight over many months looked into - for years. mary robinson, newsnight over many months looked into one i for years. mary robinson, newsnightj over many months looked into one of the biggest nhs trusts in the country in birmingham, university hospitals birmingham foundation trust. senior clinicians told us their managers were actually using disciplinary investigations to punish those who raised patient safety concerns. does that sort of thing go on a lot?— safety concerns. does that sort of thing go on a lot? well, we assume it must to thing go on a lot? well, we assume it must go on _ thing go on a lot? well, we assume it must go on a _ thing go on a lot? well, we assume it must go on a lot _ thing go on a lot? well, we assume it must go on a lot and _ thing go on a lot? well, we assume it must go on a lot and i _ thing go on a lot? well, we assume it must go on a lot and i think- thing go on a lot? well, we assume it must go on a lot and i think the i it must go on a lot and i think the clip it— it must go on a lot and i think the clip it really— it must go on a lot and i think the clip it really did show what is happening in many of these institutions. hospitals and care settings — institutions. hospitals and care settings. obviously, one of the things— settings. obviously, one of the things we — settings. obviously, one of the things we have got to tackle is the culture _ things we have got to tackle is the

culture within organisations which means— culture within organisations which means that people are afraid. they feel that _ means that people are afraid. they feel that if— means that people are afraid. they feel that if they do speak up, they will lose _ feel that if they do speak up, they will lose theirjob, we have heard, and their— will lose theirjob, we have heard, and their colleagues will turn against — and their colleagues will turn against them. they will be bullied and harassed. and what becomes then and harassed. and what becomes then a person— and harassed. and what becomes then a person speaking out against something which is wrong could be patient _ something which is wrong could be patient safety, gets turned into an issue _ patient safety, gets turned into an issue with — patient safety, gets turned into an issue with the gmc or in other organisations, they will be dismissed and they end up in an employment tribunal. an employment tribunal— employment tribunal. an employment tribunal is _ employment tribunal. an employment tribunal is entirely the wrong place to listen— tribunal is entirely the wrong place to listen to whistle—blowing because they won't, they will look at why they won't, they will look at why the person— they won't, they will look at why the person was dismissed in the first place _ the person was dismissed in the first place. we have heard from some whistleblowers who say that organisations goat reason shopping to find _ organisations goat reason shopping to find a _ organisations goat reason shopping to find a way to get rid of a person who has— to find a way to get rid of a person who has raised a complaint. and ultimately, this means that people are not— ultimately, this means that people are not safe. organisations don't work— are not safe. organisations don't work well — are not safe. organisations don't work well. so we have got to get legislation which fixes that. so what legislation which fixes that. sr what would a new whistleblowing bill do? we have got legislation that is

supposed to protect whistleblowers that was called the public disclosure act brought in in 1988 and hailed as a landmark piece of legislation. georgina, i can see from yourface legislation. georgina, i can see from your face you clearly don't think it is with the piece of paper it is written on. i think it is with the piece of paper it is written on.— it is written on. i don't think it was ever— it is written on. i don't think it was ever the _ it is written on. i don't think it was ever the right _ it is written on. i don't think it was ever the right piece - was ever the right piece of legislation because whistle—blowing is not an employment issue. people blow the whistle because they are concerned about something, be patient safety, fraud, child abuse, innocent postmasters going to jail, and they end up in an employment tribunal. they spend often tens if not hundreds of thousands of pounds for vindication. that is what they think they are going to get. and for somebody to actually investigate their concerns. but that doesn't happen. the employment tribunal isn't bothered. 50 happen. the employment tribunal isn't bothered.— isn't bothered. so why would what ou are isn't bothered. so why would what you are proposing _ isn't bothered. so why would what you are proposing be _ isn't bothered. so why would what you are proposing be better- isn't bothered. so why would what you are proposing be better than l isn't bothered. so why would what i you are proposing be better than the public interest disclosure act? because that person who wants to blow the _ because that person who wants to blow the whistle, if within that organisation that they feel they cannot go to the regulator, they will be able to go to the

independent office which would give them advise advice and help them. it would _ them advise advice and help them. it would set _ them advise advice and help them. it would set up an independent office for the _ would set up an independent office for the whistle—blower, so people would _ for the whistle—blower, so people would know they have a clear route. changing _ would know they have a clear route. changing culture within organisations is important because people _ organisations is important because people need a clear route in their organisations to raise issues, that is what _ organisations to raise issues, that is what makes us all safe and help society— is what makes us all safe and help society and — is what makes us all safe and help society and organisations to work. but if _ society and organisations to work. but if they — society and organisations to work. but if they can't, they need to have somewhere to go and that is the place _ somewhere to go and that is the place they would be able to go. and if we look— place they would be able to go. and if we look back, and one of the things— if we look back, and one of the things that was disheartening, there were many, watching mr bates and alan bates was there and he was saying. _ alan bates was there and he was saying. i— alan bates was there and he was saying, i was told i was the only one _ saying, i was told i was the only one they— saying, i was told i was the only one. they were all told they were the only— one. they were all told they were the only one. no, they had nowhere else to _ the only one. no, they had nowhere else to go — the only one. no, they had nowhere else to go. now, if this bill was in place _ else to go. now, if this bill was in place they— else to go. now, if this bill was in place, they would not be the only one because they would raise an issue _ one because they would raise an issue with — one because they would raise an issue with the office of the whistleblower and the second would raise an _ whistleblower and the second would raise an issue independently. independent people raising issues, which _ independent people raising issues, which would form a pattern through which _ which would form a pattern through which an— which would form a pattern through which an investigation would be triggered. |

which an investigation would be triu cered. ., i. which an investigation would be triu cered. ., ,, ., which an investigation would be trinered. ., . ., ~ triggered. i mean, you have talked to so many — triggered. i mean, you have talked to so many whistleblowers - triggered. i mean, you have talked to so many whistleblowers over . triggered. i mean, you have talked| to so many whistleblowers over the years, so many continue to get in touch with your organisation the entire time. it must be absolutely soul destroying for them and for you. it soul destroying for them and for ou. , , ~' soul destroying for them and for ou. , , ~ , ., ., you. it is, it feels like groundhog da eve you. it is, it feels like groundhog day every day- — you. it is, it feels like groundhog day every day. and _ you. it is, it feels like groundhog day every day. and every - you. it is, it feels like groundhog day every day. and every single l day every day. and every single whistleblower that comes forward, as mary has said, the majority are alone and they are told it is only them and they are the problem. and we see a cycle of abuse. everybody knows it is never really a secret, yet the organisation investigates the whistleblower and finds reasons to get rid of them, rather than investigating the allegations. if you take lucy letby, just think of those doctors who spend all those years training. they know when something is wrong. they report it and they find themselves having to apologise to the person who has been convicted of murdering babies. and thatis convicted of murdering babies. and that is the story over and over again. that is my life.

you need the government to be behind this legislation for it to become law, let's be honest, we know what happens mostly to private members bills, is anyone in government listening to you?— bills, is anyone in government listening to you? certainly are. and if they weren't _ listening to you? certainly are. and if they weren't listening _ listening to you? certainly are. and if they weren't listening a _ listening to you? certainly are. and if they weren't listening a few - if they weren't listening a few years ago... if they weren't listening a few years ago- - -— if they weren't listening a few earsauo...�* , , , years ago... because you did present this in 2022? — years ago. .. because you did present this in 2022? l— years ago... because you did present this in 2022? | did, _ years ago... because you did present this in 2022? i did, and _ years ago. .. because you did present this in 2022? i did, and this- years ago. .. because you did present this in 2022? i did, and this is- years ago... because you did present this in 2022? i did, and this is a - this in 2022? i did, and this is a theme that _ this in 2022? i did, and this is a theme that we _ this in 2022? i did, and this is a theme that we have _ this in 2022? i did, and this is a theme that we have really - this in 2022? i did, and this is a theme that we have really beenj theme that we have really been pushing forward and i must stress, i chair an all—party parliamentary group, so this is right across every colour in the benches, it is right across them, they all want to make changes here. and the government is definitely listening, and we are raising awareness in parliament last year on this very issue and the minister said then, we are going to have a review of the whistleblowing framework and he was true to his word and launched a review, that is due to present its outcomes very shortly and i'm hoping that that will help us to tie in the measures in the whistleblowing bill to the framework review to ensure that

people get the protections that they need. because all of this is about protecting people and ensuring that we have an open and transparent society. to we have an open and transparent socie . ., , , we have an open and transparent socie . .,, , ., we have an open and transparent socie . ., society. to ship both of you, appreciate — society. to ship both of you, appreciate your _ society. to ship both of you, appreciate your time. -- - society. to ship both of you, i appreciate your time. -- thank society. to ship both of you, - appreciate your time. -- thank you appreciate your time. —— thank you both of you. president biden has had a boost to his re—election campaign tonight, winning the backing of america's biggest car workers' union, before using his speech to criticise the man he's looking increasingly likely to face in a rematch. but donald trump's rival for the republican nomination, nikki haley, isn't yet ready to throw in the towel, after she was beaten by him in the new hampshire primary last night. joe was there as the results came in. joe, you've moved on to boston. what happens now? well, victoria, first nikki haley, her campaign may not be dead, but many experts here will tell you it is dying, and her campaign advisers are moving through the stages of grief towards acceptance. why? because new hampshire had the perfect conditions for her, a lot of more moderate voters than iowa,

independents could vote in a republican primary if she lost significantly, let's look at the numbers, in particular the percentages. 54.4% for donald trump, 43.3% for nikki haley, so he won by more than 11 percentage points, won three quarters of registered republicans. next in the primary season circus it is nikki haley's home estate in carolina, she is polling very badly there. most of the sentiment is behind donald trump. if she can last for weeks, and if she has the money from donors to do it, could she be potentially humiliated there? could that affect her if she had been thinking of running again in 2028? very possibly. as for donald trump, he really has turned it around, he is the first republican presidential candidate to win both iowa and new hampshire although potentially now i think to a lot of his legal troubles, those six cases, four criminal, two civil, one legal

expert in boston here today said two of the criminal cases potentially hold the most ofjeopardy. of course he denies the charges in all of them. firstly, the mar—a—lago top secret documents case, and also the alleged election interference case, and professor robert syke told us what could happen, potentially, possibly, in the coming months, could be dramatic. there is a crazy possibility that we could, for the first time in american history have someone who is elected to be president but is under a criminal conviction and may even have to serve prison time. that's... that possibilityjust boggles the mind. and you're absolutely right, there is no clear provision in the constitution that would prevent such a scenario from happening. there's no clear provision in federal law that would prevent that from happening. the biden trump rematch it does look highly likely, as it has for many

weeks, joe biden taking a swipe at donald trump today at the point he received an endorsement from a key automotive union, united automobile workers, and if you thought, victoria, that the uk general election campaigns could be dragged out, what we have here is the us presidential election campaign already under way, ten months before polling begins. thank you, joe. next... this isjimmy lai — a british citizen and billionaire businessman based in hong kong, who became a democracy campaigner and is now on trial for his involvement in protests in the former british territory and for �*colluding territory and for "colluding with foreign forces". before the british government handed over hong kong in 1997, china agreed to allow it considerable political autonomy for 50 years under a framework known as "one country, two systems". but in recent years, beijing has cracked down on hong kong s freedoms leading to mass

protests in the city. in 2020 beijing imposed a national security law that gave it broad new powers which critics say are being used to punish and silence dissenters like 76—year—old jimmy lai, whose trial is expected to last for 80 days. his case has sparked an international outcry and is widely seen as a test of hong kong's judicial independence. now un special rapporteurs are calling for his release. danny vincent has this special report. crowds chant. jimmy lai has been accused of being the mastermind of a syndicate calling on foreign powers to take action against hong kong — claims the outspoken media mogul has denied. his national security trial has just begun. the bbc has been following his case since he was released on bail

and still speaking out. to many, jimmy lai's story is the story of hong kong. a billionaire businessman turned democracy activist, he founded apple daily, considered the only opposition paper in hong kong. train bell tinkles. in 2020, china imposed a national security law on hong kong. to its critics, it is seen as a symbol of beijing's control of this city. jimmy lai's trial is seen as a test of hong kong's independentjudicial system and its right to freedom of expression. ronson chan is the chairman of hong kong'sjournalism association. the bbc has been following his life since his news outlet, stand news, was raided and closed two years ago. he, too, has been detained by national security police

and is also facing imprisonment, for obstructing a police officer. translation: jimmy lai has actually i been doing these things all along, l advocating forfreedom and democracy, being pro—american and having a very friendly relationship with the united states for 34 years. for 30 full years. why did they only arrest him in recent years? shouldn't they have arrested him 30 years ago? thought he had problems 30 years ago? ronson believes he is at times under surveillance. as a journalist, he confronts and live streams suspicious people following him. he says he has seen the transformation of hong kong since the national security law was introduced. translation: we have to face a cruel reality which is that in china, _ political charges such as inciting subversion and separatism have already emerged. in the past, when we watched

news on the mainland, and news about mainland courts, there was only the charges, and the court did not hold open hearings. they would choose a date for the verdict and when the time came, the sentence would be handed down — often for more than ten years — and then the person would serve their sentence. it seemed like it was very far away from us, but today, this kind of thing is happening in the court right before our eyes. those people are being accused like this, then evidence is presented, the prosecution's case is presented, these are things that you might have thought in the past could never become criminal acts. but today, they have become criminal acts. this is reality, albeit the harsh reality. woman shouts. supportjimmy lai! outside court, jimmy lai's supporters are small in number. but record number of police are out in force.

jimmy lai faces charges of colluding with foreign forces and conspiracy to publish seditious material. if found guilty, the 76—year—old could face life in prison. the prosecution named five foreign political figures that lai was said to be in communication with, including three british nationals. hey, good morning, everybody, this is a very...very nice day in hong kong today. in 2020, while out on bail, the bbc filmed a live stream betweenjimmy lai and a former us deputy secretary of defence. when you think they're soft, they turn out to get tough when you behave badly — and they don't like bullies. today, live streams like this are being used as evidence claiming that mr lai colluded with foreign powers. and please help. in 2020, i was the lastjournalist to speak withjimmy lai. just hours before his detention, he remained defiant. i'm prepared for the worst.

if the worst comes, that means the most effective way that i can