welcome to hardtalk. i'm stephen sackur. a interview with a guest from 2014 whose remarkable story earned him accolades all around the world. certain swinton who died a year after i spoke to him help to rescue mostly jewish children from nazi persecution in czechoslovakia. he hated being labelled a hero but he was proof that individuals can make an extraordinary difference and now a major film extraordinary difference and now a majorfilm one extraordinary difference and now a major film one life extraordinary difference and now a majorfilm one life based on his story has been released. i travelled to his home in the english countryside to ask what had motivated him.

sir nicholas winton, welcome to hardtalk. for most of your long life, your extraordinary story wasn't particularly well—known. but now it is known right around the world. do you like the fact that people now know exactly what you did in 1938 and �*39? i don't mind the story being told. i'm not so keen on the frills. what do you mean about the frills? well, you know as a journalist, better than i do, what i mean. well, it means you get attention and people want you to tell the story again and again. do you get sick of that? yeah, except that when they tell it again and again

and again, they add a bit of their own. well, let us together, then, tell the story, for people around the world who do not know it. and let me take you back to prague, 1938, the end of 1938. how on earth did it come to be that a young man from london, who was a successful stockbroker, had a rather glamorous life, how did it come to be that he found himself in prague in 1938? how long have you got? tell me the short version. well, the short version is that my circle of friends were all those people who were very, very left—wing. i mean, my friends were those people from the stafford

groups, all those people i was with daily. and coupled with that, of course, my parents, being jewish, we were in direct communication with thejewish population in germany. and some of them, of course, were relations. and we had people staying with us who had lost theirjobs, lost their professions, or were in danger forfamily reasons. and so i, together with my political connections, felt that we knew much more than most of the politicians about what was happening there. and the more i think back on it, the more i think how

right we were to have thought more than the others did. i think history tells us that you were absolutely right. but in particular, at the end of �*38, you found yourself in prague wrestling with the terrible plight of the refugees who'd been forced out of sudetenland when the nazis moved into that territory. many of the people, many of the refugees were jewish. many of them were homeless, had little food. and you, as i say, a very comfortable and successful young british man, decided to make a commitment to help them. yes, but i went out knowing what i would find, in principle. i knew all these people were in danger. i knew they were — a lot of them were living rough.

i knew a lot of them were being looked after temporarily by friends and relatives. i knew that some of them were living in camps. so, it didn't really come as a surprise to me. what surprised me was the number of societies that already existed to try and help these people. because it's clear you were not the only british person helping them. you had colleagues, there was a team of people who wanted to offer help. but your particular commitment, and your idea, was to get children, particularly children, away from czechoslovakia, away from the nazi threat, and to get them to london. but it was extraordinarily difficult to achieve that, wasn't it? well, it's been made more

difficult than it really was. i mean, having isolated the problem into the simple way that you've put it, how can one get an unaccompanied child into england? what do you do? you ask the people who prevented it happening. and the people that prevented it happening were the home 0ffice. and we went to the home office. my mother went to the home office and said, "look, what are you going to do about it?" and she was the one who actually got the conditions from the home office under which unaccompanied children could come into the country. the question remains, from the point of view of giving them a life in england, you had to find

families who would agree to raise them, to foster them. and ijust wonder how you did it. well, this wasn't so difficult or mysterious as you and other people now tend to make it. after all, this was a time when the british government were trying to get all the british children out of the south of england into the north. the evacuees. so it was merely a question of getting them established as part of the evacuee train. there were issues though. i know, even in the midst of the fear that was being generated across europe of the nazi persecution, the anti—semitism, there

were rabbis who said to you, "you can't putjewish children in christian homes, that's not right. " i wonder if you paid any heed to them? well, yes. ijust confronted them, and said in much politer terms, "mind your own business. this is what i think should be done, and i'm going to do it. and if you prefer a dead jew than a jew brought up in a christian home, it's really not my problem, it's your problem." i think what you've just told me encapsulates your attitude then, and maybe through your life, that you were determined to follow through and act on what you believed

to be right. i can't see what other act one can follow. you can only act what you yourself feel is right. but so many people might feel what is right, but not have the courage, or the energy, or the commitment to act upon it. but you did. yes, well, that's theirfault, not mine. now, you managed, with your colleagues, to get 669 children, again mostlyjewish children, out of a situation where they almost certainly would have perished had you not rescued them. but when it came to the ninth train, i think it was due to leave on 1 september 1939, and you had arranged i think for pretty much 250 children to find homes in england at the end of that journey,

you found that the journey was thwarted because germany invaded poland, then britain declared war upon germany, and there was to be no more train from prague to london. that's right. what happened to those children whom you were trying to rescue? i don't know, i really don't know. those that were on a train to leave for england, who never even got as far as england, their story is pretty bad, as far as one can find out. but you can't find out exactly what happened. those that got to england were minimal, because

the trains were stopped. i tell you something that really strikes me about your story. you were involved in this remarkable effort to save lives in 1939. then you did military service, you served in the raf for a while. you were involved in work helping refugees after the war. but you never really made a point of talking very much about what had happened in prague. and you never, if i may say so, you never really made much of an effort to meet the children whom you had saved, and who grew up to be adults in britain. why? i don't know. i don't know even today how, if i'd wanted to do it, i would have set about it. how do you set about having

all these children — were dotted all over the place? what do you do? as long as you have an after—care system, which we had, to make sure that each of these children were being properly looked after, i didn't have to worry. if there was somebody who was badly looked after, or in trouble, we had a separate organisation looking after that, and the person in charge of that was my mother. nevertheless, when the media really got hold of your story, in the 1980s, you did meet a large number of the grown up adults who had been saved by you when they were children. what was that like? well, that was very emotional.

for them as well. you're talking about the programme. there was a television programme, and i know after the programme, people wanted to stay in touch with you. they wanted — some of them talked of you as a father figure for them. they still do. that is extraordinary. you have these hundreds of people who have had their lives saved, who look to you in a most extraordinary way. well, that's just — how do they say, how the cookie crumbles. i mean, itjust happened like that. i mean, i made no effort to keep it going. but it is something you must feel very proud of. well, it's nice to think

that it went all right. the trouble is that some of the more elderly ones became my bridge partners, and they're dying off. people wanted to hear from you, people talked of you as a hero. you didn't like that, why? well, you can see now from our conversation, there is nothing heroic about it. it's just a question of organisation and work. but i mean, at no time was i in any imminent danger, not really. slightly perhaps when i was in germany. but my main work was done in england. i was never in danger here. but surely the point

is notjust about danger, it's about a human being showing so much compassion, so much determination, and so much commitment to helping others, and acting upon their feelings? that is heroic. yes, that's not what makes your name known though, is it? i just wonder whether it left you with a very bleak view of humanity and human nature? it depends what you mean by being left with a very bleak view. if you are asking whether i am pessimistic for the future, the answer is yes, i am. because you do not feel human beings or human nature has changed very much

since those days? well, i mean everything that is done, you only have to read a newspaper and it concentrates on the past. what good has it ever done us? to concentrate on the past. who has never learned anything by concentrating on the past? i was going to say it might be useful to look at the past if we could learn from the past? but can we? you are a historian, you must know more than anybody. you go back in history... is there anything that we have learned from the past? things have got worse and worse, by every generation. the only difference is that now, with the new inventions that have been made, things are not only as dangerous, they are much more dangerous. now, if there is a blowup, there is a proper blowup.

you have been lauded, you have received accolades in the united states, across europe, czechoslovakia, the czech republic now. but also in israel. i know that you, with your jewish heritage, you take a great interest in the search for middle east peace, in the state of the middle east today. do you see any signs of lessons being learned, of humanity understanding any better how to live in peace? in the middle east? no. no, i don't. it is depressing to say that, isn't it? well, i think the news today is depressing, yes. i think things are depressing. and, of course, the most terrible things today are occurring where

civilisation is supposed to have started. let me ask you about religion. and your faith, if any. your parents came to britain as germanjews, and made a life in the uk. you arejewish. yes. has faith played a role in your life? for a long time, ifollowed the christian faith. and, when i was at stowe, i was baptised. i was very strong in the christian faith. and then i went to germany.

and i couldn't reconcile with the fact that the church was praying for victory on both sides of the same war, that i couldn't reconcile, so i left religion altogether. explain to me then what your motivation and impulse is. throughout your life, notjust in the period we have discussed in the 1930s and 1940s, but in your later life, a deep commitment that you show to charitable work. you helped the elderly for many, many years. you've been a key player in a rotary club and all of its charitable works. you've worked for mental health charities. if it's not faith that drives you, what is it? ethics.

explain that to me, what do you mean by ethics? well, you know what ethics are? values, notions of what is good. goodness, kindness, love, honesty, decency. ethics. that standard of life. i believe in ethics. and if everybody believes in ethics, we'd have no problems at all. that's the only way out. forget the religious side. before we finish, i just want to ask you a couple of questions and ask you so much about your extraordinary experiences, and are more about the fact that you have lived an extraordinarily long time. and you've seen a lot. you've seen extraordinary

change in the world from the year of your birth in 1909. we talk about progress, we talk about economic growth, we talk about consumption and materialism. do you feel that the world today is a much better place than the one you were born into? i think the world today would like to be a better place. but, at the end of any conflict that there might be, it has got methods of mass destruction, which makes any other type of thinking impossible. you mean more than any advances in technology? the internet, tv, and everything else that we take for granted, it's the expansion of our ability to kill each other that is the most dominant change you've seen?

i think fundamentally it is. i've never heard it put like that. but i think that is right. yes, it is the most important. do you feel that you still have a say in society? well, my only say in society is to try and preach an ethical existence. even when very, very occasionally i meet theresa may, she came up to me and say, "i have not forgotten ethics!" that is the british home secretary. yes, so that's a start! you're lecturing even her now? there is no point in lecturing people who have got no authority. i want to ask you one more

question, i don't mean to be depressing, there's been a lot of interesting stuff has been written in the last few years about death and dying, and whether human beings are frightened of dying, and whether that colours the way in which people are treated when they are old. are you frightened of dying? i've accepted the fact there is nothing there. those people who are frightened are frightened because they think there is something there. i don't think there's anything there. but that's not a frightening thought to you? well, there would be a hell of a lot of people to be frightened with, wouldn't there? if you go back in history. sir nicholas winton, thank you very, very much for talking to me on hardtalk. thank you very much indeed.

pleasure. hello. after two bouts of stormy weather so far this week, things are looking quite a lot calmer over the next few days. not completely plain sailing, there will still be some rain at times. it'll be breezy, but less windy and mostly fairly mild. now for thursday, we've got this frontal system pushing its way northwards and eastwards. this warm front, introducing cloud, introducing some outbreaks of mostly quite patchy rain, but this wedge of milder air flooding northeastwards across the uk. so, for most, a mild start to thursday. still a little bit chilly in the north of scotland. here, though, we will see some early sunshine, but generally speaking, lots of cloud, some mist and murk, farquharson hills,

some splashes of rain, a few brighter glimpses. and i think particularly in northern ireland, maybe the northwest of scotland, we will see a little bit of sunshine as we head through the afternoon. but those temperatures 9 to 13 degrees above what we'd expect at this time of year. now, during thursday night, we will see this band of rain sweeping its way eastwards. there's a short, sharp burst of heavy rain and some quite squally winds. clear skies following on behind. and while it will stay mild across the southeast corner, it will start to feel a little bit chillier further north and west because this weather front here pushing its way eastwards is a cold front. it will introduce for a time at least some colder air, but with a little ridge of high pressure toppling through, some spells of sunshine on friday. now there will be some showers, particularly in scotland, some of these wintry down to, say, 100—200 metres for a time, although those snow levels coming up through the day as the air turns a little bit less chilly.

temperatures in single digits for just about all of us on friday afternoon. but that slightly chillier weather will not last long because as we head into the weekend, mild air is going to surge northwards once again. we're expecting some pretty high temperatures, a lot of dry weather for the weekend as well. this is saturday's forecast — tome spells of sunshine. the further north and west you are, more cloud and some outbreaks of rain, some quite heavy rain actually in parts of northwest scotland. 7 degrees for lerwick. 10 for london and for plymouth. but as we get into sunday, those temperatures will be a little bit higher. we will see some spells of sunshine, i think most places dry again, some rain in the northwest of scotland, maybe western parts of northern ireland, but highs of 12 or 13 degrees.

live from london, this is bbc news. ukraine's president calls for an international investigation into a plane crash in western russia. moscow says over 60 ukrainian prisoners of war on board died.

a top un official says israel was warned about the location of a shelter for palestinians in gaza before it was attacked, killing nine people, after the amazon suffers one of its worst droughts, a team of international scientists say climate change is to blame. and some of ghana's crown jewels stolen by british soldiers more than a century ago are being returned. hello. i'm sally bundock. welcome to the programme. the un security council is meeting later to discuss the mystery surrounding the shooting down of a russian military transport plane near the russia—ukraine border. moscow says the plane was carrying ukrainian prisoners of war involved in a prison exchange. it has accused ukraine

of deliberately targeting the plane.