Skip to main content

tv   BBC News  BBC News  January 25, 2024 1:45pm-2:01pm GMT

1:45 pm
and brutality hiding in the shadows and brutality of the attacks are that of an individual who knew exactly what he was doing, he knew entirely that it was doing, he knew entirely that it was wrong, but he did it anyway. to the middle east, israel has denied accusations that it hit a united nations facility in southern gaza on wednesday, killing at least 12 people and wounding more than 75. the israeli military said the incident was not caused by an air or artillery strike by its forces. the training centre in khan younis was sheltering a large numbers of palestinians who've been forced from their homes. intense fighting has continued in the area, which is crowded with tens of thousands of displaced civilians. in australia — two statues of colonial figures have been vandalised — ahead of the country's contentious national holiday. a monument honouring the british explorer james cook, who mapped the east coast of australia and claimed it for britain, was cut at the ankles and defaced in melbourne. and a nearby statue of queen victoria was splashed with red paint.
1:46 pm
the vandalism comes a day before australia day, which marks the arrival of the british fleet more than 200 years ago. for indigenous australians, it's a day of mourning — signalling the start of colonisation, which saw first nation people killed and opressed. thousands of australians are expected to attend protests across the country on friday — calling for the date to be changed. it's been more than a century since treasures were looted by british soldiers from ghana — many of them holding huge cultural and spiritual significance. now, in a landmark agreement, the victoria and albert and british museums in london are returning them, on loan, to the ashantee king. our culture editor katie razzall has this report. there is anger. people look at it in colonial terms. looting of items, precious items
1:47 pm
belonging to people, items that they don't easily forget. gold from the royal court of the ashanti kingdom which was once one of africa's most powerful states. these objects and many more were looted by british troops in the ashanti capital, kumasi, in 1874 during the third anglo—ashanti war. sold at auction then, now they are going back to ghana for the first time in 150 years to kamasi's palace museum in a landmark loan deal with the victoria & albert and the british museum. they're into the south kensington museum and they are put on display and they are displayed both as a work of incredible west african goldsmithery, but also as a sort of, you know, sign of british imperial and colonial power. 17 victoria & albert items are returning, including a piece used by ashanti kings and heavy cast—gold badges worn by courtiers tasked with cleansing the king's soul.
1:48 pm
scotland's first minister humza yousaf is due to give evidence this afternoon to the uk covid—i9 inquiry amid ongoing scrutiny over messages exchanged by ministers and officials during the pandemic. it's a statement dated the 2nd of november 2023. it's a statement dated the 2nd of november2023. is it's a statement dated the 2nd of november 2023. is that your statement? have you sign the statement? have you sign the statement? can you confirm to the leadership that the contents remain true and accurate at�*s deight. i can true and accurate at's deight. i can confirm that _ true and accurate at's deight. i can confirm that is _ true and accurate at's deight. i can confirm that is the _ true and accurate at's deight. i can confirm that is the case. _ true and accurate at's deight. i can confirm that is the case. you - confirm that is the case. you provided _ confirm that is the case. you provided a — confirm that is the case. you provided a second _ confirm that is the case. w'm. provided a second statement. under reference in 2000273973. is that your statement? reference in 2000273973. is that yourstatement? have reference in 2000273973. is that your statement? have you signed the statement? do the contents of that statement? do the contents of that statement remain true and accurate as at today's date? timer;r statement remain true and accurate as at today's date?— statement remain true and accurate as at today's date?- you i statement remain true and accurate| as at today's date?- you are as at today's date? they do. you are the current — as at today's date? they do. you are the current first _ as at today's date? they do. you are the current first minister— as at today's date? they do. you are the current first minister of- the current first minister of scotland. the current first minister of scotland-— the current first minister of. scotland._ you scotland. that is correct. you ex - lain scotland. that is correct. you exolain in _ scotland. that is correct. you exolain in your— scotland. that is correct. you explain in your statement - scotland. that is correct. you| explain in your statement that scotland. that is correct. you - explain in your statement that you are responsible for leading the scottish government with the support
1:49 pm
of cabinet secretaries and ministers. is that correct? that is correct. ministers. is that correct? that is correct- you _ ministers. is that correct? that is correct. you became _ ministers. is that correct? that is correct. you became first - ministers. is that correct? that is | correct. you became first minister on the 29th _ correct. you became first minister on the 29th of _ correct. you became first minister on the 29th of march _ correct. you became first minister on the 29th of march 2023 - correct. you became first minister on the 29th of march 2023 taking l on the 29th of march 2023 taking over the rope from nicola sturgeon. during the course of the pandemic, you held two cabinet secretary rose as i understand it. the first role was cabinet secretary for justice. which you help from the 26th ofjune 2018 to the 19th of may 2021. and the second following the scottish parliamentary election in may 2021, you took over the health and social care portfolio, you take that over from jean freeman who held the role in the earlier stages of the pandemic. is that correct? that is correct. pandemic. is that correct? that is correct- and _ pandemic. is that correct? that is correct. and you _ pandemic. is that correct? that is correct. and you held _ pandemic. is that correct? that is correct. and you held it _ pandemic. is that correct? that is correct. and you held it until - pandemic. is that correct? that is correct. and you held it until you| correct. and you held it until you became first _ correct. and you held it until you became first minister— correct. and you held it until you became first minister in - correct. and you held it until you became first minister in the - correct. and you held it until you| became first minister in the 28th correct. and you held it until you i became first minister in the 28th of march 2023. can i clarify that when jean freeman held the role prior to the election, i understand the role was entitled cabinet secretary for health and sport but when you held
1:50 pm
that, cabinet secretary for health and social care. is there any significance in the change of name with regard to the portfolio is that you're covered in your cabinet secretary role? i you're covered in your cabinet secretary role?— you're covered in your cabinet secretary role? i don't think they would have _ secretary role? i don't think they would have been _ secretary role? i don't think they would have been much _ secretary role? i don't think they would have been much of- secretary role? i don't think they would have been much of a - secretary role? i don't think they i would have been much of a change, although— would have been much of a change, although having taken sport out of the title _ although having taken sport out of the title and replace with social care, _ the title and replace with social care, i— the title and replace with social care, i would have a the title and replace with social care, iwould have a minister who took— care, iwould have a minister who took on _ care, iwould have a minister who took on the — care, iwould have a minister who took on the title of sport in her title _ took on the title of sport in her title. ultimately, as the cabinet secretary, i would have title. ultimately, as the cabinet secretary, iwould have been responsible for the entirety of the portfolio — responsible for the entirety of the ortfolio. ., . , responsible for the entirety of the ortfolio. ., ., , ,., portfolio. you and she were both responsible _ portfolio. you and she were both responsible for _ portfolio. you and she were both responsible for health _ portfolio. you and she were both responsible for health including i responsible for health including public health? and for social care? that is correct. it! public health? and for social care? that is correct.— that is correct. i'd like to ask some questions _ that is correct. i'd like to ask some questions about - that is correct. i'd like to ask some questions about otherl some questions about other decision—making structures which existed within the scottish government during the course of the pandemic. some of these are things we have heard about, but we think you might have some insight into how they operated. we have heard some talk and you mention in your statement of a group or
1:51 pm
decision—making body called gold command. are you aware of what that group did? i command. are you aware of what that a-rou did? ., command. are you aware of what that group did?- i _ command. are you aware of what that group did? i am. i understand you attended that _ group did? i am. i understand you attended that group _ group did? i am. i understand you attended that group not _ group did? i am. i understand you attended that group not always that sometimes. am i correct in understanding this was a selected group of cabinet ministers which would tend to include, it would always include nicola sturgeon, and sometimes include others, including yourself at various different times. correct. ., yourself at various different times. correct. . ., ., ~' yourself at various different times. correct. . ., ., ~ ., yourself at various different times. correct. . ., ., ., , yourself at various different times. correct. . . . . , g: correct. can i look at paragraph 35 of our correct. can i look at paragraph 35 of your statement _ correct. can i look at paragraph 35 of your statement for _ correct. can i look at paragraph 35 of your statement for you - correct. can i look at paragraph 35 of your statement for you provide | of your statement for you provide more detail about this. you say at paragraph 35 that in relation to how decision—making could have been improved during the pandemic, i believe there were times when a decision made by the former first minister discussed within gold command was not cascaded to the rest of cabinet or all ministers. due to the fast nature of decision—making during the pandemic. we did our best to explain the rationale of decision—making, but the feedback
1:52 pm
from some groups, in particular the hospitality industry was that the rules are changing too often with decisions made before guidance was available. on reflection, there may have been instances when it could have been instances when it could have worked with industry on that list before making a final decision on restrictions, i believe this could have been improved. in relation advisory structures, my experience is that the experience was always ready and available when needed. what do you mean when you suggest the decisions were made by the former first minister which were not cascaded to the rest of cabinet? with permission before i answer the substance _ with permission before i answer the substance of that question, i wonder if i substance of that question, i wonder if t can_ substance of that question, i wonder if i can begin before i respond to the first— if i can begin before i respond to the first substantial question, the trauma _ the first substantial question, the trauma and grief that so many families— trauma and grief that so many families and individuals face and continue — families and individuals face and continue to face during the course of the _ continue to face during the course of the pandemic, particularly those who have _ of the pandemic, particularly those who have been bereaved by covid—19. i want _ who have been bereaved by covid—19. i want to— who have been bereaved by covid—19. i want to offer my condolences once again— i want to offer my condolences once again to _ i want to offer my condolences once again to every single person who has been bullied by covid—19. however, i
1:53 pm
also acknowledge that it is not sympathy they require, but straight answers— sympathy they require, but straight answers to — sympathy they require, but straight answers to straight questions which of course, _ answers to straight questions which of course, i— answers to straight questions which of course, i endeavour to get over the course — of course, i endeavour to get over the course of the next few hours. in relation _ the course of the next few hours. in relation to— the course of the next few hours. in relation to the substance of the question— relation to the substance of the question that you have asked, for me, question that you have asked, for me. given — question that you have asked, for me, given the fast—paced nature of what _ me, given the fast—paced nature of what we _ me, given the fast—paced nature of what we are — me, given the fast—paced nature of what we are dealing with, therefore, the need _ what we are dealing with, therefore, the need for urgent decisions to be made, _ the need for urgent decisions to be made, decisions were sometimes delegated to the four first minister. cabinet would agree to that _ minister. cabinet would agree to that and — minister. cabinet would agree to that. and the former first minister was entrusted to make those decisions. i am aware there were rare occasions where it sometimes a decision— rare occasions where it sometimes a decision was — rare occasions where it sometimes a decision was made again responding to a particular development and it was therefore not cascaded to the rest of— was therefore not cascaded to the rest of cabinet until that decision was announced and that happened on the rare _ was announced and that happened on the rare occasion. but we were
1:54 pm
often, — the rare occasion. but we were often, i— the rare occasion. but we were often, i know special advisers, government officials worked hard to ensure _ government officials worked hard to ensure that cabinet was informed of decisions _ ensure that cabinet was informed of decisions when they were meet as opposed _ decisions when they were meet as opposed to one singer announced. | opposed to one singer announced. i think opposed to one singer announced. think you opposed to one singer announced. i think you have identified there were situations in which decisions were made by the first former minister based on a delegated authority from cabinet, that is one type of decision making process. and there were times when you characterise them as being, because of the pressures of the pandemic, decisions were taken by the first minister where they had not been a delegation, but that process was necessary because it decision needed to be made immediately. is that right? to be made immediately. is that riuht? ., . to be made immediately. is that right?- therefore, i to be made immediately. is that right?- therefore, it i to be made immediately. is that right?- therefore, it is i to be made immediately. is that i right?- therefore, it is the right? correct. therefore, it is the case, that— right? correct. therefore, it is the case. that you _ right? correct. therefore, it is the case, that you are _ right? correct. therefore, it is the case, that you are saying - right? correct. therefore, it is the case, that you are saying that i right? correct. therefore, it is the i case, that you are saying that some decisions were made in those circumstances which did not have the approval of the cabinet?— approval of the cabinet? again, they would have been _ approval of the cabinet? again, they would have been some _ approval of the cabinet? again, they would have been some decisions i approval of the cabinet? again, they| would have been some decisions that may have _ would have been some decisions that may have been made in that way. for the most _ may have been made in that way. for the most part, cabinet would agree
1:55 pm
decisions _ the most part, cabinet would agree decisions that had to be made. there may well— decisions that had to be made. there may well he — decisions that had to be made. there may well be times when the exact detail— may well be times when the exact detail of— may well be times when the exact detail of a — may well be times when the exact detail of a decision, so, for example. _ detail of a decision, so, for example, if we were too, if cabinet agreed _ example, if we were too, if cabinet agreed to— example, if we were too, if cabinet agreed to impose restrictions around household _ agreed to impose restrictions around household numbers mixing indoors, there _ household numbers mixing indoors, there may— household numbers mixing indoors, there may not be a final decision on there may not be a final decision on the number— there may not be a final decision on the number of hassles, the number of people _ the number of hassles, the number of people from _ the number of hassles, the number of people from a certain number of hasstes— people from a certain number of hassles and therefore we would seek to delegate that decision to the first _ to delegate that decision to the first minister, to the deputy first minister. — first minister, to the deputy first minister, cabinet secretary, for health— minister, cabinet secretary, for health to — minister, cabinet secretary, for health to make. that may well be because _ health to make. that may well be because the decision was going to be announced _ because the decision was going to be announced in a couple are a few days' _ announced in a couple are a few days' time — announced in a couple are a few days' time and the situation could develop _ days' time and the situation could develop in — days' time and the situation could develop in terms of the epidemiology of the _ develop in terms of the epidemiology of the virus _ develop in terms of the epidemiology of the virus and they would be times when _ of the virus and they would be times when we _ of the virus and they would be times when we would entrust the former first minister to make that decision on delegated authority. it would be unusual, _ on delegated authority. it would be unusual, very rare, i think, on delegated authority. it would be unusual, very rare, ithink, for the former— unusual, very rare, ithink, for the former first — unusual, very rare, ithink, for the former first minister to make a
1:56 pm
decision— former first minister to make a decision without that delegated authority without informing cabinet that the _ authority without informing cabinet that the decision was made before it was announced.— that the decision was made before it was announced. were decisions made in cabinet, or— was announced. were decisions made in cabinet, or were _ was announced. were decisions made in cabinet, or were they made - was announced. were decisions made in cabinet, or were they made by i in cabinet, or were they made by the first minister and or within legal command structure? ugh first minister and or within legal command structure?— first minister and or within legal command structure? a variety of all of those. decisions _ command structure? a variety of all of those. decisions were _ command structure? a variety of all of those. decisions were made i command structure? a variety of all of those. decisions were made at i of those. decisions were made at cabinet. — of those. decisions were made at cabinet. of— of those. decisions were made at cabinet, of course, the inquiry has a number— cabinet, of course, the inquiry has a numberof— cabinet, of course, the inquiry has a number of documents in relation to cabinet _ a number of documents in relation to cabinet minutes and meetings. so discussions were engaging in cabinet _ discussions were engaging in cabinet. they were sometimes differences of opinion as you can well imagine. but decisions were made _ well imagine. but decisions were made often at cabinet gold command because _ made often at cabinet gold command because it _ made often at cabinet gold command because it was a reason. the situation _ because it was a reason. the situation could change between one week and _ situation could change between one week and the next given the fast—paced nature of the virus that we were _ fast—paced nature of the virus that we were dealing with. gold command was an— we were dealing with. gold command was an important structure. ultimately, also, the first minister we knew— ultimately, also, the first minister we knew it — ultimately, also, the first minister we knew it was doing daily briefings virtually— we knew it was doing daily briefings virtually every single day and
1:57 pm
therefore there was also the delegated authority should she have to make _ delegated authority should she have to make a _ delegated authority should she have to make a decision because of a development in the virus that particular day. i think it is, to answer— particular day. i think it is, to answer your question, a mixture of all of— answer your question, a mixture of all of those — answer your question, a mixture of all of those. we answer your question, a mixture of all of those-— answer your question, a mixture of all of those. ~ . ., . all of those. we have heard evidence about the constitutional _ all of those. we have heard evidence about the constitutional structure i about the constitutional structure within which the scottish government reports to operate from a political expert. he confirmed that the basic structure is that decisions are to be made in cabinet as is the case with the uk government, and that there are good constitutional reasons for that. do you accept that as a matter of principle is the way in which decisions are meant to be made within our constitutional system? made within our constitutional s stem? , ., made within our constitutional s stem? , . ., , , made within our constitutional s stem? , . , ., system? yes, i agree cabinet is an imortant system? yes, i agree cabinet is an important structure _ system? yes, i agree cabinet is an important structure for _ important structure for decision—making. important structure for decision-making. important structure for decision-makinu. �* , decision-making. because within cabinet, there _ decision-making. because within cabinet, there are _ decision-making. because within cabinet, there are a _ decision-making. because within cabinet, there are a number i decision-making. because within cabinet, there are a number of i cabinet, there are a number of voices that are able to approach important questions for from a
1:58 pm
number of perspectives and if there is real discussion and debate within that forum, this protects —— those perspectives can be given the respect they deserve such that better decisions can be made. is that a summary of why the system is what it is? it that a summary of why the system is what it is? , ., ., that a summary of why the system is what it is? , . . , ., , what it is? it is a fair summary, i have had — what it is? it is a fair summary, i have had a _ what it is? it is a fair summary, i have had a number— what it is? it is a fair summary, i have had a number of— what it is? it is a fair summary, i have had a number of cabinet i have had a number of cabinet secretary _ have had a number of cabinet secretary positions in the past and is now— secretary positions in the past and is now in_ secretary positions in the past and is now in the very privileged position— is now in the very privileged position of being first minister, there _ position of being first minister, there is— position of being first minister, there is very good reason for decisions _ there is very good reason for decisions being made at cabinet and that is— decisions being made at cabinet and that is how— decisions being made at cabinet and that is how decisions are made on most _ that is how decisions are made on most occasions, particularly during normal— most occasions, particularly during normal times. we were not of course in normat— normal times. we were not of course in normal times in the course of the pandemic— in normal times in the course of the pandemic and therefore they will often _ pandemic and therefore they will often he — pandemic and therefore they will often be more delegated decisions made _ often be more delegated decisions made during the pandemic than you would _ made during the pandemic than you would make under normal as first minister. — would make under normal as first minister, also ask cabinet for delegated authority and decision making, — delegated authority and decision making, most recently done in the course _ making, most recently done in the course of— making, most recently done in the course of budget last year when i asked _ course of budget last year when i asked the — course of budget last year when i asked the cabinet to delegate the final decision making to and the
1:59 pm
finance — final decision making to and the finance secretary and cabinet approved that. to finance secretary and cabinet approved that.— finance secretary and cabinet approved that. finance secretary and cabinet aurovedthat. . ., . approved that. to be clear, you have told us there — approved that. to be clear, you have told us there were _ approved that. to be clear, you have told us there were occasions - approved that. to be clear, you have told us there were occasions in i told us there were occasions in which the first minister either with or without the benefit of discussion within gold command took decisions without the delegated authority of the cabinet. w , without the delegated authority of the cabinet. .,, , ., , the cabinet. those times would be ve rare, the cabinet. those times would be very rare. very _ the cabinet. those times would be very rare, very rare _ the cabinet. those times would be very rare, very rare occasions, i very rare, very rare occasions, often _ very rare, very rare occasions, often the — very rare, very rare occasions, often the former first minister would — often the former first minister would seek cabinet's delegated authority but i think they were a number— authority but i think they were a number of— authority but i think they were a number of exceptional cases where the epidemiology of the virus had changed. — the epidemiology of the virus had changed, if there had been a sudden spike _ changed, if there had been a sudden spike in _ changed, if there had been a sudden spike in cases in 24 hours, and therefore — spike in cases in 24 hours, and therefore a _ spike in cases in 24 hours, and therefore a decision had to be made there _ therefore a decision had to be made there and _ therefore a decision had to be made there and then that was an understanding that given that this was not _ understanding that given that this was not normal times, such decisions could _ was not normal times, such decisions could he _ was not normal times, such decisions could be made by the first minister. you suggested, i think, could be made by the first minister. you suggested, ithink, in could be made by the first minister. you suggested, i think, in your evidence, there was a certain regularity with which cabinet met. was it not possible to convene cabinet meetings at short notice in those urgent situations? {solid
2:00 pm
those urgent situations? gold command _ those urgent situations? gold command in _ those urgent situations? gold command in essence - those urgent situations? gold command in essence was i those urgent situations? gold command in essence was a i those urgent situations? gold command in essence was a tighter class _ command in essence was a tighter class list _ command in essence was a tighter class list of — command in essence was a tighter class list of cabinet secretaries necessary _ class list of cabinet secretaries necessary to make it particular decision — necessary to make it particular decision. gold command and the attendance of gold command change depending on the decision that was required _ depending on the decision that was required to be made. i attended some lold required to be made. i attended some gold command meetings in my videos cabinet _ gold command meetings in my videos cabinet secretary rose and another as i did _ cabinet secretary rose and another as i did not — cabinet secretary rose and another as i did not. it depended on the decision— as i did not. it depended on the decision that was required to be made _ decision that was required to be made. ., , , decision that was required to be made. . , , ., ., made. cabinet minutes are a record of discussions _ made. cabinet minutes are a record of discussions taken _ made. cabinet minutes are a record of discussions taken at _ made. cabinet minutes are a record of discussions taken at cabinet i of discussions taken at cabinet meetings and they are published. are they not? meetings and they are published. are the not? ., . meetings and they are published. are they not?- discussions - they not? correct. discussions within gold — they not? correct. discussions within gold command - they not? correct. discussions within gold command were i they not? correct. discussions| within gold command were not they not? correct. discussions - within gold command were not minuted and published. i ma; within gold command were not minuted and published-— and published. i my understanding was that gold _ and published. i my understanding was that gold command _ and published. i my understanding was that gold command meetingsl was that gold command meetings should _ was that gold command meetings should have been minuted, but if that was— should have been minuted, but if that was not the case, then that would _ that was not the case, then that would have not been usual for government meetings, these should be minuted. _ government meetings, these should be minuted, and, of course, be available _ minuted, and, of course, be available should there be the appropriate request.

10 Views

1 Favorite

info Stream Only

Uploaded by TV Archive on