lovely to have you on the programme. ms sturgeon was the woman in charge in scotland during the pandemic and i guess evidence is key for the inquiry. i guess evidence is key for the inuui . , , ,.,, , inquiry. yes. the purpose in this inuui , inquiry. yes. the purpose in this inquiry. a _ inquiry. yes. the purpose in this inquiry. a uk — inquiry. yes. the purpose in this inquiry, a uk wide _ inquiry. yes. the purpose in this inquiry, a uk wide one, - inquiry. yes. the purpose in this inquiry, a uk wide one, is- inquiry. yes. the purpose in this inquiry, a uk wide one, is to - inquiry. yes. the purpose in this| inquiry, a uk wide one, is to look at the decisions that were made during the pandemic and to think about lessons that can be learned going forward, but of course there is a lot of elements that nicola sturgeon will be questioned on this morning and this afternoon. it is a full day of the session, she is giving big questions that have dogged this inquiry about a more informal whatsapp messages, text messages that no longer exist. nicola sturgeon has already revealed she didn't retain whatsapp messages from the pandemic on her phone. she says that was in keeping with scottish government guidance at the time which said that decisions should be recorded but then

ministers, officials were encouraged to delete what was on their phone. however it does appear there were other government ministers who did retain those messages who take different approaches, so we will no doubt have to hear from nicola sturgeon on that front. there are lawyers representing the bereaved families from the time of the pandemic who are unhappy those whatsapp messages potentially no longer exist because they want a full idea of how decisions are made. there will also be questions about decision—making, a common accusation from opponents of nicola sturgeon has been that she made decisions with a very small group of ministers and advisers that her cabinet was essentially a rubber stamping body. that is something that came up yesterday when her deputy at the time john yesterday when her deputy at the timejohn swinney yesterday when her deputy at the time john swinney was yesterday when her deputy at the timejohn swinney was giving evidence and he said no, that was not the case, cabinet was setting the overall direction, yes, some minor decisions may have been delegated to the first minister but that she was taking advice when it came to decisions like this. the first minister nicola sturgeon,

former first minister of scotland being sworn in at the moment, then we can cross over to the inquiry. you are nicola sturgeon. i you are nicola sturgeon. i am. you have provided _ you are nicola sturgeon. i am. you have provided two _ you are nicola sturgeon. i —n you have provided two statements to this inquiry— have provided two statements to this inquiry as_ have provided two statements to this inquiry as well as a number of other prior— inquiry as well as a number of other prior statements. the statements you provide _ prior statements. the statements you provide to _ prior statements. the statements you provide to this module are under reference — provide to this module are under reference in0000339033, dated the 6th of november, 2023, is at your statement? it 6th of november, 2023, is at your statement?— 6th of november, 2023, is at your statement? it is. have you signed a statement? — statement? it is. have you signed a statement? i _ statement? it is. have you signed a statement? i have. _ statement? it is. have you signed a statement? i have. to _ statement? it is. have you signed a statement? i have. to the - statement? it is. have you signed a statement? i have. to the contents| statement? i have. to the contents remain accurate? _ statement? i have. to the contents remain accurate? yes. _ statement? i have. to the contents remain accurate? yes. you - statement? i have. to the contents| remain accurate? yes. you provided statement? i have. to the contents i remain accurate? yes. you provided a further remain accurate? yes you provided a further statement to remain accurate? 12.1 you provided a further statement to us. remain accurate? 121 you provided a further statement to us. this was a further_ further statement to us. this was a further statement to us. this was a further statement dated the 16th of november 2023, further statement dated the 16th of november2023, is further statement dated the 16th of november 2023, is that your further statement? .

november 2023, is that your further statement? yes. have you signed that? yes- _ statement? yes. have you signed that? yes- to _ statement? yes. have you signed that? yes. to the _ statement? yes. have you signed that? yes. to the contents - statement? yes. have you signed | that? yes. to the contents remain true and accurate? _ that? yes. to the contents remain true and accurate? yes, _ that? yes. to the contents remain true and accurate? yes, i - that? yes. to the contents remaini true and accurate? yes, i provided some further— true and accurate? yes, i provided some further information - true and accurate? yes, i provided some further information to - true and accurate? yes, i provided some further information to the i some further information to the inquiry last week which would usually be read alongside the statement but yes. additional documentation _ statement but yes. additional documentation rather - statement but yes. additional documentation rather than i statement but yes. additional - documentation rather than changing the text? _ documentation rather than changing the text?- you _ documentation rather than changing the text?- you were - documentation rather than changing the text?- you were the - documentation rather than changing | the text?- you were the first the text? indeed. you were the first minister of scotland _ the text? indeed. you were the first minister of scotland between - the text? indeed. you were the first minister of scotland between the - minister of scotland between the 20th of _ minister of scotland between the 20th of november 2014 and the 28th of march _ 20th of november 2014 and the 28th of march 2023. | 20th of november 2014 and the 28th of march 2021— 20th of november 2014 and the 28th of march 2023.- you - 20th of november 2014 and the 28th of march 2023.- you held - of march 2023. i was a. you held office as first — of march 2023. i was a. you held office as first minister _ of march 2023. i was a. you held | office as first minister throughout the period from january 20, 2020 two april 2022? _ the period from january 20, 2020 two april 2022? | the period from january 20, 2020 two a . ril 2022? the period from january 20, 2020 two april2022? i did. the period the period from january 20, 2020 two april 2022? i did. the period of april2022? i did. the period of time with which _ april2022? i did. the period of time with which this _ april 2022? i c c the period of time with which this module is primarily— time with which this module is primarily concerned. as first minister— primarily concerned. as first minister during that period you ahead — minister during that period you ahead of— minister during that period you ahead of the scottish government and so had _ ahead of the scottish government and so had overall responsibility for scotland's pandemic response and for engagement with the uk government and other_ engagement with the uk government and other devolved administrations. good i_ and other devolved administrations. good i ask— and other devolved administrations. good i ask you some questions, about the way— good i ask you some questions, about the way in _ good i ask you some questions, about the way in which you and others within— the way in which you and others within the — the way in which you and others within the scottish government used

in format— within the scottish government used in formal methods of communication in formal methods of communication in order— in formal methods of communication in order to _ in formal methods of communication in order to discuss matters connected to the pandemic? in your statement dated _ connected to the pandemic? in your statement dated the _ connected to the pandemic? in your statement dated the 16th _ connected to the pandemic? in your statement dated the 16th of - statement dated the 16th of november, statement dated the 16th of november.— statement dated the 16th of november, ., j~ statement dated the 16th of november, ., november, paragraph 48, you say throu:hout november, paragraph 48, you say throughout the _ november, paragraph 48, you say throughout the pandemic - november, paragraph 48, you say throughout the pandemic i - november, paragraph 48, you say throughout the pandemic i sought| november, paragraph 48, you say i throughout the pandemic i sought to be open. _ throughout the pandemic i sought to be open, transparent and accountable and respectable decisions being taken — and respectable decisions being taken. while acknowledging some of the issues _ taken. while acknowledging some of the issues presented by the sheer pace and — the issues presented by the sheer pace and magnitude of what we were facing _ pace and magnitude of what we were facing dominic dominic...

isa is a sillier position today that you and the _ is a sillier position today that you and the scottish government were open. _ and the scottish government were open, transparent and accountable in your actions. — open, transparent and accountable in youractions, notjust open, transparent and accountable in your actions, notjust your words but all— your actions, notjust your words but all times throughout the pandemic response in scotland? yes, that is still my _ pandemic response in scotland? 121 that is still my position. openness and transparency with the scottish public was very important to me from the outset of the pandemic. i communicated to the public on a daily basis for a lengthy period of time. we will not have got every decision right and we will have made thisjudgments and there decision right and we will have made this judgments and there will be undoubtedly instances put to me today where on reflection i will think we could have been more transparent than we were, but given the nature of the emergency we were

confronted with, building a relationship of trust with the public was important and in my view, then and now, that had to be built on a spirit of openness.— on a spirit of openness. openness and transparency _ on a spirit of openness. openness and transparency are _ on a spirit of openness. openness and transparency are fundamental concepts— and transparency are fundamental concepts in the way in which the scottish— concepts in the way in which the scottish government seeks to represent the people scotland, isn't that right? — represent the people scotland, isn't that rirht? ~ , represent the people scotland, isn't that right?_ one - represent the people scotland, isn't that right?_ one can - represent the people scotland, isn't that right?_ one can see| that right? absolutely. one can see is in a number— that right? absolutely. one can see is in a number of _ that right? absolutely. one can see is in a number of documents, - that right? absolutely. one can see is in a number of documents, for i is in a number of documents, for example. — is in a number of documents, for example, the national performance framework, one sees those concepts repeated _ framework, one sees those concepts repeated in _ framework, one sees those concepts repeated in that document, is that correct? _ repeated in that document, is that correct? .. . repeated in that document, is that correct? ., , . repeated in that document, is that correct?_ in - correct? that is correct. in documents _ correct? that is correct. in documents which - correct? that is correct. in documents which we - correct? that is correct. in documents which we have | correct? that is correct. in - documents which we have looked correct? that is correct. in _ documents which we have looked at, which _ documents which we have looked at, which set _ documents which we have looked at, which set out the approach which the scottish— which set out the approach which the scottish government wish to take to the way— scottish government wish to take to the way in _ scottish government wish to take to the way in which it was dealing with the challenges of the pandemic, again— the challenges of the pandemic, again one — the challenges of the pandemic, again one sees a concepts of openness, transparency and accountability at the very core of. is accountability at the very core of. is that _ accountability at the very core of. is that correct. yes. its accountability at the very core of. is that correct. yes.—

is that correct. yes. as far as a role, a is that correct. yes. as far as a role. a very _ is that correct. yes. as far as a role, a very important - is that correct. yes. as far as a role, a very important role - is that correct. yes. as far as a j role, a very important role that is that correct. yes. as far as a - role, a very important role that you played _ role, a very important role that you played was — role, a very important role that you played was concerned, the public communication strategy, again these concepts— communication strategy, again these concepts were very much the bedrock ithink— concepts were very much the bedrock i think of— concepts were very much the bedrock i think of the way in which you tried _ i think of the way in which you tried to — i think of the way in which you tried to communicate messages, information, decisions to the public information, decisions to the public in scotland — information, decisions to the public in scotland. .. . information, decisions to the public in scotland-— in scotland. that is what i tried to do. you in scotland. that is what i tried to do- you see _ in scotland. that is what i tried to do. you see in _ in scotland. that is what i tried to do. you see in the _ in scotland. that is what i tried to do. you see in the passage - in scotland. that is what i tried to do. you see in the passage we - in scotland. that is what i tried to l do. you see in the passage we have looked at you _ do. you see in the passage we have looked at you did _ do. you see in the passage we have looked at you did not _ do. you see in the passage we have looked at you did not use _ do. you see in the passage we have looked at you did not use informal. looked at you did not use informal communications to reach decisions, what _ communications to reach decisions, what do _ communications to reach decisions, what do you — communications to reach decisions, what do you mean by that? informal communications _ what do you mean by that? informal communications were _ what do you mean by that? informal communications were not _ what do you mean by that? informal communications were not in - what do you mean by that? informal communications were not in any - what do you mean by that? informal. communications were not in any sense an extensive or meaningful part of how i conduct government business in any way, certainly not to reach decisions, in relation to notjust covid but government generally, the number of individuals with whom i would have any informal communication through text messages or whatsapp would be very limited. in the case of whatsapp probably no

more than a handful of people. i was never a member of any whatsapp groups. i think the two people i would have had the most extensive communication with would have been my former chief of staff liz lloyd and humza yousaf. i believe the inquiry has some messages between me and those individuals which i hadn't retained but they had. i think they will give a sense of the nature of that communication. the communication of that nature was not used by me for anything other than routine exchanges, logistics, passing on information. the exchanges with the individuals i have referred to will be littered with things like, there was a note coming to you through the system, i am giving you a heads up about that, but is the nature of the communication. i understand the inquiry may want to explore some

elements of that and i will of course answer questions about specifics but that is the overall nature of that communication, extremely limited. i operated on the basis that i would ensure that anything in communications of that description were otherwise recorded on the scottish government system if there was anything of that nature. we have heard others refer to recording _ we have heard others refer to recording salient information on a group _ recording salient information on a group of— recording salient information on a group of record, is that what you're talking _ group of record, is that what you're talking about?— talking about? yes, this would be rare in my — talking about? yes, this would be rare in my case — talking about? yes, this would be rare in my case because - talking about? yes, this would be rare in my case because of- talking about? yes, this would be rare in my case because of what l talking about? yes, this would be rare in my case because of what i | rare in my case because of what i said, i didn't do government business through informal messaging. in relation to covid or any other matter. but if there were salient points of substance i would ask myself, as it reflected, recorded in the scottish government's record? either because i had put it in or it

was referring to something that was already on record if somebody was, as i used an illustration a moment to go, flagging up something that was coming to me through the system, another example in my exchanges with humza yousaf, he would for a period when vaccination was such a focus of all of our efforts he would sign me on a daily basis the vaccination uptake figures, which within a very short space of time would come to me formally and be published. i would check whether there was anything that required to be recorded on the scottish government system and i am absolutely firmly of the view that there is nothing the inquiry has seen some of these messages in any informal messaging that i would have been party to that could not have been party to that could not have been seen and understood through the formal systems and indeed to be

public communications that i was engaging in on a daily basis, where i went through in great detail, some people perhaps thought too much detail, the issues we were confronted with and dealing with on a daily basis. just confronted with and dealing with on a daily basis-— a daily basis. just to be clear to reconcile to _ a daily basis. just to be clear to reconcile to parts _ a daily basis. just to be clear to reconcile to parts of _ a daily basis. just to be clear to reconcile to parts of the - a daily basis. just to be clear to i reconcile to parts of the evidence there. _ reconcile to parts of the evidence there. you — reconcile to parts of the evidence there, you said you didn't use these informal— there, you said you didn't use these informal messaging systems but i think— informal messaging systems but i think you — informal messaging systems but i think you suggested there would really— think you suggested there would really be — think you suggested there would really be occasions when you would have to _ really be occasions when you would have to transpose things into the corporate — have to transpose things into the corporate record which suggests you at least _ corporate record which suggests you at least rarely used in. just corporate record which suggests you at least rarely used in.— at least rarely used in. just to be very clear i _ at least rarely used in. just to be very clear i have _ at least rarely used in. just to be very clear i have not _ at least rarely used in. just to be very clear i have not said - at least rarely used in. just to be very clear i have not said that. at least rarely used in. just to be very clear i have not said that i i very clear i have not said that i never used informal means of communication. what i am saying is that i did so very rarely. and even more rarely to discuss issues of substance or anything that could be described as decision—making. i am sure we will come onto the formal ways in which the scottish government took decisions later on but there was a high degree of

formality around the decision—making of the scottish government. you mentioned _ of the scottish government. you mentioned a _ of the scottish government. you mentioned a moment ago that there would _ mentioned a moment ago that there would he _ mentioned a moment ago that there would be routine exchanges undertaken through this media. do you accept— undertaken through this media. do you accept based on a communications we have _ you accept based on a communications we have seen that you did undertake discussions — we have seen that you did undertake discussions around what decisions might— discussions around what decisions might be — discussions around what decisions might be taken through these media? they would be an element of reflecting on the decisions that we were having to make. but i was doing that openly in daily briefings with the public. so i would not be reflecting in any way where i was i suppose engaging in some secret course of discussion that i wouldn't be sharing openly during that. so yes, there would be and i think there have been some exchanges discussed at the inquiry in previous evidence sessions, where i am saying

about a particular decision, i am not sure in my own mind what the right way to go ways. but that would be something i was trying to formulate in my mind before formal cabinet discussion where cabinet would take the decision. that is the extent of that. other exchanges would literally be i think in exchanges between myself and humza yousaf, things like, mr yousaf saying to me, i havejust taken part in information skull, the note of the readout will be on its way to you if you want me to give you a call to brief you on that before you get it i will do that. so that is the nature of the communication that i would routinely, the nature of the communication that iwould routinely, limited, have. latte iwould routinely, limited, have. we heard evidence as you may be aware from one _ heard evidence as you may be aware from one of— heard evidence as you may be aware from one of the directors general within— from one of the directors general within the — from one of the directors general within the civil service in scotland, miss leslie fraser. she

was responsible for a compilation of a number— was responsible for a compilation of a number of different scottish government policies around information and document retention. she accepted in her evidence that the primary aim of those policies across— the primary aim of those policies across scottish government was to try to _ across scottish government was to try to make — across scottish government was to try to make sure that a reasonable amount— try to make sure that a reasonable amount of— try to make sure that a reasonable amount of information was retained in order— amount of information was retained in order to — amount of information was retained in order to be able to give any interested scottish citizen the material from which amongst other things— material from which amongst other things they could deduce how decisions had been taken. do you accept _ decisions had been taken. do you accept that the messages we have seen from — accept that the messages we have seen from others contain information that an _ seen from others contain information that an interested scottish citizen would _ that an interested scottish citizen would like to see in order to understand how decisions were taken in the _ understand how decisions were taken in the pandemic?— in the pandemic? forgive me, ifi --erhas in the pandemic? forgive me, ifi perhaps haven't _ in the pandemic? forgive me, ifi perhaps haven't seen _ in the pandemic? forgive me, ifi perhaps haven't seen all - in the pandemic? forgive me, ifi perhaps haven't seen all the - perhaps haven't seen all the exchanges but i am not sure i have seen exchanges that have been discussed at the inquiry where i

would accept that the interested member of the scottish public couldn't see notjust member of the scottish public couldn't see not just the decisions that were being arrived at in the scottish government but the reasoning and evidence behind those decisions from the public record. as i have reference already, almost every day during the pandemic i would openly share with the public the state of the pandemic, the difficult choices that would posing for the government, what we were considering enriching those decisions, but we were asking the public to do, there was a very open form of communication. i am not sure i have seen anything i would say the scottish publicjust wouldn't have any idea we were talking about that or considering that. it

any idea we were talking about that or considering that.— or considering that. it might be a matter for— or considering that. it might be a matter for the _ or considering that. it might be a matter for the scottish _ or considering that. it might be a matter for the scottish public - or considering that. it might be a matter for the scottish public to l matter for the scottish public to judge _ matter for the scottish public to judge based on all the information that was— judge based on all the information that was relevant to these matters whether _ that was relevant to these matters whether they felt they had seen all the information they needed to be able to— the information they needed to be able to draw conclusions about the appropriateness, timeliness of your decisions _ appropriateness, timeliness of your decisions. gf appropriateness, timeliness of your decisions. , , decisions. of course. let me be clear, i decisions. of course. let me be clear. i accept— decisions. of course. let me be clear, i accept that _ decisions. of course. let me be clear, i accept that and - decisions. of course. let me be clear, i accept that and it - decisions. of course. let me be clear, i accept that and it is - decisions. of course. let me be clear, i accept that and it is for| clear, i accept that and it is for the inquiry tojudge clear, i accept that and it is for the inquiry to judge whether that is the inquiry to judge whether that is the case. i am simply sharing my views. i repeat this because i do think it is significant and material, the means of communication, the method and frequency of communication the scottish government was engaging in lent that on a daily basis it was almost an open conversation with the public which we thought was important to encourage compliance with what the public were being asked to do. these are public statements and the question and answers after it would go through

not just the decisions answers after it would go through notjust the decisions we had arrived at but we would go through the considerations and palaces we were trying to strike, the pretty invidious nature of some of the choices we were all being faced with. he choices we were all being faced with. ,., .. choices we were all being faced with. ,., ., ,., , ,., with. he repaired and the passage from our with. he repaired and the passage from your statement _ with. he repaired and the passage from your statement that - with. he repaired and the passage from your statement that we - with. he repaired and the passage from your statement that we went with. he repaired and the passage i from your statement that we went to to the _ from your statement that we went to to the fact _ from your statement that we went to to the fact that it had emerged publicly— to the fact that it had emerged publicly through the procedures of this inquiry that a lot of this informal— this inquiry that a lot of this informal communication had been done within— informal communication had been done within the _ informal communication had been done within the uk government by whatsapp in particular but by other means as well and _ in particular but by other means as well and you suggested you felt the nature _ well and you suggested you felt the nature of— well and you suggested you felt the nature of the communication is emerged — nature of the communication is emerged from the uk government created _ emerged from the uk government created an — emerged from the uk government created an impression that we were all communicating in such a way. we have gratuitously by way of example seen very _ have gratuitously by way of example seen very extensive exchanges between — seen very extensive exchanges between the now first minister and professor— between the now first minister and professorjason leitch discussing their— professorjason leitch discussing their attitude towards important moments in the pandemic and decisions _ moments in the pandemic and decisions and advice are required to -ive decisions and advice are required to give to— decisions and advice are required to give to you —

decisions and advice are required to give to you in cabinet. it appears from _ give to you in cabinet. it appears from that— give to you in cabinet. it appears from that and indeed the other messages which have now come to li-ht messages which have now come to light that _ messages which have now come to light that informal messaging in particular whatsapp was a frequent particular whatsapp was a frequent part of— particular whatsapp was a frequent part of the way in which the scottish— part of the way in which the scottish government conducted its business _ scottish government conducted its business in covid. where you were unaware _ business in covid. where you were unaware of— business in covid. where you were unaware of the fact that that was the case — unaware of the fact that that was the case as first minister during the case as first minister during the course — the case as first minister during the course of the pandemic? those exchanres the course of the pandemic? those exchanges i — the course of the pandemic? those exchanges i would _ the course of the pandemic? those exchanges i would have _ the course of the pandemic? those exchanges i would have no - the course of the pandemic? iir12 exchanges i would have no knowledge of and had no sight of before seeing them in the course of this inquiry. if you are asking me did i know anybody in the scottish government was using whatsapp, of course it is not the case, whatsapp had become in my view probably too common a means of communication, but i think the exchanges you are talking about certainly from what i have seen would not suggest that government decisions were being taken through whatsapp, it was a means of communication that people were using

to exchange information on occasion, sometimes to share views about things. using language and ways of describing things that perhaps wouldn't have been done in different forms of communication. one of the reasons, and if i thought this before covid and this inquiry i certainly think it even more strongly now, why i don't believe that whatsapp for example should be used for government communication and decision making is that when i make a public statement or made public statements as first minister in this context i would think very, very carefully about the words i used to try to minimise as far as is possible the scope of what i was saying to be misinterpreted. when people send messages on whatsapp they don't think, including me, you don't think that deeply about how you are praising things. therefore messages when they are looked back at later on can be open to different

interpretations because people haven't really thought about the website or using for the phraseology they are using. i think that certain it would be true of some of the exchanges the inquiry has been looking at. exchanges the inquiry has been looking at— looking at. with you as first minister not _ looking at. with you as first minister not have _ looking at. with you as first minister not have voted i looking at. with you as first minister not have voted to l looking at. with you as first. minister not have voted to be important that ministers and senior officials _ important that ministers and senior officials would think deeply about the conduct of government business whether— the conduct of government business whether conducted through whatsapp or otherwise? of whether conducted through whatsapp or otherwise?— or otherwise? of course it is the case and in _ or otherwise? of course it is the case and in saying _ or otherwise? of course it is the case and in saying that - or otherwise? of course it is the case and in saying that i - or otherwise? of course it is the case and in saying that i am i or otherwise? of course it is the case and in saying that i am not| case and in saying that i am not trying to suggest that people are not thinking deeply, every human being can recognise what i'm saying, the form of communication can influence the phraseology or the way influence the phraseology or the way in which things are worded and informal communication i think lends itself the very short, sharp exchanges that would be very different if you are making a speech

or putting something in a formal paperfor or putting something in a formal paper for decision—making. or putting something in a formal paperfor decision—making. can i say very clearly when i was first minister i would not have expected any of my ministers or my officials who have been conducting substantive government discussions and certainly not taking government decisions through whatsapp or other informal means of measuring. fin through whatsapp or other informal means of measuring.— through whatsapp or other informal means of measuring. on the 27th of ma 2020 means of measuring. on the 27th of may 2020 as — means of measuring. on the 27th of may 2020 as we _ means of measuring. on the 27th of may 2020 as we with _ means of measuring. on the 27th of may 2020 as we with mr _ means of measuring. on the 27th of may 2020 as we with mr swinney i may 2020 as we with mr swinney yesterday in a scottish parliament in response to a question about whether— in response to a question about whether you would order public inquiry— whether you would order public inquiry into the covid—19 outbreak inquiry into the covid—19 outbreak in care _ inquiry into the covid—19 outbreak in care homes in scotland, he replied — in care homes in scotland, he replied as _ in care homes in scotland, he replied as follows. of course there will he _ replied as follows. of course there will he a _ replied as follows. of course there will be a public inquiry into this whole — will be a public inquiry into this whole crisis and every aspect of the crisis _ whole crisis and every aspect of the crisis and _ whole crisis and every aspect of the crisis and that will undoubtedly include — crisis and that will undoubtedly include what happened in care homes. so at that— include what happened in care homes. so at that stage you knew they would be a so at that stage you knew they would he a public— so at that stage you knew they would be a public inquiry in the future into the — be a public inquiry in the future into the scottish government response of the pandemic generally. i was assumed there would be a

public inquiry. fits i was assumed there would be a public inquiry-— public inquiry. as we know you effectively _ public inquiry. as we know you effectively had _ public inquiry. as we know you effectively had the _ public inquiry. as we know you effectively had the power - public inquiry. as we know you effectively had the power to i public inquiry. as we know you i effectively had the power to order one and _ effectively had the power to order one and you did. in scotland, yes i did. one and you did. in scotland, yes i did on_ one and you did. in scotland, yes i did 0nthe— one and you did. in scotland, yes i did. on the 3rd of august 2021 lesley— did. on the 3rd of august 2021 lesley fraser and kenneth thompson centre _ lesley fraser and kenneth thompson centre do— lesley fraser and kenneth thompson centre do not destroy e—mail to scottish— centre do not destroy e—mail to scottish government officials with the subject covid—19 independence inquiry— the subject covid—19 independence inquiry record retention might explain — inquiry record retention might explain the importance of retaining relevant _ explain the importance of retaining relevant material to the work of the inquiry. _ relevant material to the work of the inquiry. do — relevant material to the work of the inquiry, do you recall receiving that? — inquiry, do you recall receiving that? i— inquiry, do you recall receiving that? ., ., ., �* ., ., that? i do not as far as i'm aware, i did not receive _ that? i do not as far as i'm aware, i did not receive it. _ that? i do not as far as i'm aware, i did not receive it. you _ that? i do not as far as i'm aware, i did not receive it. you recall- that? i do not as far as i'm aware, i did not receive it. you recall i i i did not receive it. you recall i would imagine in a general sense that such notification was sent out. i would say that i don't think i would have required to see that to know that matters that were relevant to matters of substance, relevant to the inquiry should be retained and

that i had a duty like all ministers and officials to ensure that anything they were exchanging an informal messaging if they were not retaining those messages in line with the policies in place, there would be a clear record of anything on the scottish government systems. you set on the 24th of august 2021 that the scottish government had started the process of setting up the scottish covid inquiry. you said that ou the scottish covid inquiry. you said that you believe _ the scottish covid inquiry. you said that you believe it _ the scottish covid inquiry. you said that you believe it will _ the scottish covid inquiry. you said that you believe it will public i that you believe it will public inquiry— that you believe it will public inquiry has an important role to play— inquiry has an important role to play both— inquiry has an important role to play both in scrutinising the decisions we took or indeed continue to take _ decisions we took or indeed continue to take on _ decisions we took or indeed continue to take on a — decisions we took or indeed continue to take on a course of the pandemic and also _ to take on a course of the pandemic and also in — to take on a course of the pandemic and also in identifying and burning lessons _ and also in identifying and burning lessons for the future. do you agree that in_ lessons for the future. do you agree that in order— lessons for the future. do you agree that in order to scrutinise decisions and learn lessons the public— decisions and learn lessons the public inquiry would need to seek notjust— public inquiry would need to seek notjust the decisions public inquiry would need to seek not just the decisions themselves but the _ not just the decisions themselves but the discussions that led to the decisions — but the discussions that led to the decisions being made or not made, including _ decisions being made or not made, including discussion of information

and advice?— and advice? yes, i do agree with that. but and advice? yes, i do agree with that- itut i _ and advice? yes, i do agree with that. but i would _ and advice? yes, i do agree with that. but i would add _ and advice? yes, i do agree with that. but i would add to - and advice? yes, i do agree with that. but i would add to that i and advice? yes, i do agree with that. but i would add to that and let me say, obviously a matter for the inquiry tojudge, in let me say, obviously a matter for the inquiry to judge, in terms let me say, obviously a matter for the inquiry tojudge, in terms of any informal communications i had which as i have already said were limited both in terms of the number of people and the extent of the communication, there would be nothing in this communications that was not available to either the inquiry or the public through the record of the scottish government or indeedin record of the scottish government or indeed in the very detailed public statements that were being made every day. i want to assure the inquiry at that, that i take and took very seriously the duty that was on the shoulders of me as first minister and of the scottish government collectively to make sure that this inquiry and the corresponding scottish inquiry would have at its disposal all of the

evidence and material that would allow it to assess the decisions and underpinning reasoning and evidence for those decisions. over the course of the pandemic and forgive me if getting ahead of your line of questioning, we will no doubt talk about cabinet papers and minutes, over the course of the pandemic i think there would have been in the region of 100 cabinet meetings for each of those, detailed papers, detailed minutes, it would notjust record the decisions that cabinet reached but that would look at the different options we assessed and discussed but would narrate the evidence and reasoning behind the decisions we arrived at and in cabinet minutes, we would also have lengthy and comprehensive summaries of the points made in the discussion around the cabinet table. obviously thatis around the cabinet table. obviously that is not all the inquiry has at

its disposal but if it was all that this inquiry had, that would be a comprehensive and very detailed account of every decision that the scottish government took in the course of the pandemic. you are fully cognizant _ course of the pandemic. you are fully cognizant of _ course of the pandemic. you are fully cognizant of the _ course of the pandemic. you are fully cognizant of the fact i course of the pandemic. you are fully cognizant of the fact that i course of the pandemic. you are i fully cognizant of the fact that you would _ fully cognizant of the fact that you would be — fully cognizant of the fact that you would be a public inquiry, yes? yes. in au:ust would be a public inquiry, yes? yes. in august 2020 _ would be a public inquiry, yes? yes. in august 2020 want _ would be a public inquiry, yes? 121 in august 2020 want you announced yes. you — in august 2020 want you announced yes. you knew at the time when you made _ yes. you knew at the time when you made the _ yes. you knew at the time when you made the statement announcing the scottish— made the statement announcing the scottish covid inquiry that material which _ scottish covid inquiry that material which she — scottish covid inquiry that material which she had used to exchange messages and informal communications would _ messages and informal communications would assist _ messages and informal communications would assist in a very important aims _ would assist in a very important aims of— would assist in a very important aims of the inquiry scrutinising the decisions — aims of the inquiry scrutinising the decisions you to? get. and you knew at that decisions you to? and you knew at that point decisions you to? (1321r and you knew at that point that those decisions you to? (1121 and you knew at that point that those messages had been — at that point that those messages had been destroyed? | at that point that those messages had been destroyed?— at that point that those messages had been destroyed? i knew that i had been destroyed? i knew that i had operated _ had been destroyed? i knew that i had operated in _

had been destroyed? i knew that i had operated in line _ had been destroyed? i knew that i had operated in line with - had been destroyed? i knew that i had operated in line with a - had been destroyed? i knew that i had operated in line with a policy. had operated in line with a policy that i had operated in line with and advice i had had from the outset of my time as a minister to ensure that conversations with others in government with any impact or relationship to government business shouldn't be kept in a pump that could be lost or stolen but properly recorded, and i was very good and i sent of and had been from the start of the pandemic, notjust at sent of and had been from the start of the pandemic, not just at the point in time you are referring to form the start of the ban to ensure that anything of salience, relevance to the decision—making of the government would be properly recorded through the scottish government record. you recorded through the scottish government record. ., ., n' ., government record. you were asked a ruestion government record. you were asked a question by — government record. you were asked a question by a — government record. you were asked a question by a journalist _ government record. you were asked a question by a journalist from - question by a journalist from channel— question by a journalist from channel 4 where he asked you at that very press— channel 4 where he asked you at that very press conference in august 2021. _ very press conference in august 20211 the — very press conference in august 2021, the scottish government has a patchy— 2021, the scottish government has a patchy record of disclosing evidence when _ patchy record of disclosing evidence when asked to do so, can you guarantee _ when asked to do so, can you guarantee to the bereaved families

you will— guarantee to the bereaved families you will disclose e—mails, whatsapp, private _ you will disclose e—mails, whatsapp, private e—mails if they have been using _ private e—mails if they have been using them, whatever, that nothing will be _ using them, whatever, that nothing will be office minister inquiry, he responded i think if you understand statutory— responded i think if you understand statutory public inquiries at you would _ statutory public inquiries at you would know that even if i wasn't prepared — would know that even if i wasn't prepared to give that assurance, which _ prepared to give that assurance, which with— prepared to give that assurance, which with the avoidance of doubt i am, which with the avoidance of doubt i am. that— which with the avoidance of doubt i am. that i— which with the avoidance of doubt i am, that i wouldn't have the ability — am, that i wouldn't have the ability. he asked specific questions about— ability. he asked specific questions about informal means of medication including _ about informal means of medication including whatsapps, but you knew by that stage _ including whatsapps, but you knew by that stage that your whatsapps had been destroyed. butl that stage that your whatsapps had been destroyed.— that stage that your whatsapps had been destroyed. but i also knew that an hinr been destroyed. but i also knew that an hint of been destroyed. but i also knew that anything of any _ been destroyed. but i also knew that anything of any relevance _ been destroyed. but i also knew that anything of any relevance or - anything of any relevance or substance from any of that material would be properly recorded in the scottish government system and indeed would have been communicated indeed would have been communicated in all likelihood by me through the daily media briefings that i gave. the importance in my view is making sure that the inquiry has at its disposal all the evidence underpinning the decisions as well see decisions we arriving at. i

operated from 2007 based on advice, the policy that messages, business writing to government should not be kept on the phone that could be lost or stolen and insecure in that way but properly recorded through the system. i would want to again underline that in my case that communication was extremely limited and i do not, would not relate to matters of substantive government decision—making. that's not the question you were asked. _ that's not the question you were asked. you — that's not the question you were asked, you were asked whether you would _ asked, you were asked whether you would disclose e—mails, whatsapp messages, private e—mails will stop you were _ messages, private e—mails will stop you were not asked whether the material — you were not asked whether the material contained in the discussions exchanged by those material — discussions exchanged by those material was in the public record will stop— material was in the public record will stop you were asked whether it would _ will stop you were asked whether it would be _ will stop you were asked whether it would be discussed and you gave an

assurance — would be discussed and you gave an assurance. and would be discussed and you gave an assurance. �* .. . would be discussed and you gave an assurance. ~ ., , ., , assurance. and i, as well have been the case on — assurance. and i, as well have been the case on many — assurance. and i, as well have been the case on many occasions - assurance. and i, as well have been the case on many occasions over- assurance. and i, as well have been| the case on many occasions over the course of notjust the covid pandemic but in my many years in politics, answering questions, when you are answering questions you are trying to answer the substance of the question and when you look back at the literal terms of the answer, it can be put to you in that way. i accept that and apologise if that answer was this not as clear, but i also want to be very clear and give the inquiry a personal assurance that i am certain that the inquiry has at its disposal anything and everything germane to my decision—making during the processes and the time period of the pandemic and the time period of the pandemic and the time period of the pandemic and the factors underpinning those decisions. that has always been important to me and it remains important to me and it remains important to me and it remains important to me. but more

importantly than that, it's