those that are bereaved, who have to those that are bereaved, who have lost people in care homes, that we do understand that in the fullest possible way. #metoo can i ask you to try to keep our #metoo can i ask you to try to keep your re5ponses _ #metoo can i ask you to try to keep your responses as _ #metoo can i ask you to try to keep your responses as short _ #metoo can i ask you to try to keep your responses as short as - #metoo can i ask you to try to keepi your responses as short as possible. obviously— your responses as short as possible. obviously we — your responses as short as possible. obviously we are _ your responses as short as possible. obviously we are limited _ your responses as short as possible. obviously we are limited in- your responses as short as possible. obviously we are limited in time - your responses as short as possible. obviously we are limited in time and we want _ obviously we are limited in time and we want to— obviously we are limited in time and we want to try — obviously we are limited in time and we want to try to _ obviously we are limited in time and we want to try to get _ obviously we are limited in time and we want to try to get through - we want to try to get through as many— we want to try to get through as many questions _ we want to try to get through as many questions as _ we want to try to get through as many questions as we _ we want to try to get through as many questions as we can. - we want to try to get through as . many questions as we can. moving we want to try to get through as - many questions as we can. moving on to document — many questions as we can. moving on to document reference... _ many questions as we can. moving on to document reference... that - many questions as we can. moving on to document reference... that shouldi to document reference... that should come _ to document reference... that should come up _ to document reference... that should come up on _ to document reference... that should come up on screen, _ to document reference... that should come up on screen, page _ to document reference... that should come up on screen, page four- to document reference... that should come up on screen, page four of- to document reference... that should come up on screen, page four of that| come up on screen, page four of that document _ come up on screen, page four of that document. didn't— come up on screen, page four of that document. didn't your— come up on screen, page four of that document. didn't your inquiries - come up on screen, page four of that document. didn't your inquiries at. document. didn't your inquiries at the end _ document. didn't your inquiries at the end of— document. didn't your inquiries at the end ofjanuary, _ document. didn't your inquiries at the end ofjanuary, when - document. didn't your inquiries at the end ofjanuary, when public. the end ofjanuary, when public health — the end ofjanuary, when public health scotland _ the end ofjanuary, when public health scotland explained - the end ofjanuary, when public health scotland explained that| health scotland explained that asymptomatic— health scotland explained that asymptomatic transfer- health scotland explained that asymptomatic transfer could . health scotland explained that - asymptomatic transfer could occur, in response — asymptomatic transfer could occur, in response to _ asymptomatic transfer could occur, in response to your— asymptomatic transfer could occur, in response to your question - asymptomatic transfer could occur, in response to your question aboutl in response to your question about it, in response to your question about it. nrean— in response to your question about it. mean that— in response to your question about it. mean that you _ in response to your question about it, mean that you did _ in response to your question about it, mean that you did indeed - in response to your question about it, mean that you did indeed know| it, mean that you did indeed know atrout— it, mean that you did indeed know about a _ it, mean that you did indeed know about a symptomatic _ it, mean that you did indeed know about a symptomatic transfer - it, mean that you did indeed know about a symptomatic transfer at l it, mean that you did indeed know. about a symptomatic transfer at the relevant _ about a symptomatic transfer at the relevant time? _ about a symptomatic transfer at the relevant time? so _ about a symptomatic transfer at the relevant time? so they— about a symptomatic transfer at the relevant time? so they phrase - about a symptomatic transfer at the l relevant time? so they phrase quoted there that _ relevant time? so they phrase quoted there that we — relevant time? so they phrase quoted there that we see _ relevant time? so they phrase quoted there that we see on— relevant time? so they phrase quoted there that we see on screen, - relevant time? so they phrase quoted there that we see on screen, and - relevant time? so they phrase quoted there that we see on screen, and we i there that we see on screen, and we didn't_ there that we see on screen, and we didn't know— there that we see on screen, and we didn't know what _ there that we see on screen, and we didn't know what we _ there that we see on screen, and we didn't know what we know— there that we see on screen, and we didn't know what we know now - there that we see on screen, and we| didn't know what we know now about asymptomatic— didn't know what we know now about asymptomatic transmission- didn't know what we know now about asymptomatic transmission was - didn't know what we know now about asymptomatic transmission was in i asymptomatic transmission was in fact correct? —

asymptomatic transmission was in fact correct?— fact correct? no. perhaps it is not as fully expressed _ fact correct? no. perhaps it is not as fully expressed there - fact correct? no. perhaps it is not as fully expressed there as - fact correct? no. perhaps it is not as fully expressed there as i - fact correct? no. perhaps it is not as fully expressed there as i have | as fully expressed there as i have had the opportunity to do to today. if we go back to the statement you showed me a moment ago, it was actually me who first queried everything, saying, i don't think it is right to say that asymptomatic transmission cannot happen. so it wasn't that we didn't know asymptomatic transmission couldn't happen, but we didn't know, at the outset, what we came to know, but it was potentially a significant driver. the response that came back to me from health protection scotland, as it was then, still was saying they thought it was overwhelmingly likely people with symptoms who would transmit, so we didn't know everything we came to know about asymptomatic transition heat transmission when i made that statement, but that is not the same as saying we didn't know anything about it as saying we didn't know anything about |- , ., , as saying we didn't know anything abouti, ., ., ., as saying we didn't know anything abouti . . ., .,, about it stop you aware of any recommendations _ about it stop you aware of any recommendations made -

about it stop you aware of any recommendations made by i about it stop you aware of any - recommendations made by scottish care in— recommendations made by scottish care in march— recommendations made by scottish care in march 2020 _ recommendations made by scottish care in march 2020 in— recommendations made by scottish care in march 2020 in relation- recommendations made by scottish care in march 2020 in relation to i care in march 2020 in relation to the need — care in march 2020 in relation to the need for— care in march 2020 in relation to the need for robust _ care in march 2020 in relation to the need for robust clinical- the need for robust clinical assessment— the need for robust clinical assessment and _ the need for robust clinical assessment and testing i the need for robust clinical assessment and testing of| the need for robust clinical- assessment and testing of residents entering _ assessment and testing of residents entering care — assessment and testing of residents entering care homes, _ assessment and testing of residents entering care homes, both - assessment and testing of residents entering care homes, both from - assessment and testing of residents entering care homes, both from thei entering care homes, both from the community— entering care homes, both from the community and _ entering care homes, both from the community and acute _ entering care homes, both from the community and acute nhs - entering care homes, both from the| community and acute nhs settings? and if— community and acute nhs settings? and if so, _ community and acute nhs settings? and if so, how— community and acute nhs settings? and if so, how did _ community and acute nhs settings? and if so, how did this _ community and acute nhs settings? and if so, how did this affect - community and acute nhs settings? and if so, how did this affect your i and if so, how did this affect your decision— and if so, how did this affect your decision making? _ and if so, how did this affect your decision making? i— and if so, how did this affect your decision making?— decision making? i was aware of comments _ decision making? i was aware of comments and _ decision making? i was aware of| comments and recommendations decision making? i was aware of - comments and recommendations that scottish care and other organisations and bodies were making. i don't know if i was aware of the specific ones you are quoting to be there. we sought to factor all of that into our decision—making. we extended testing to care homes and to a range of other settings as we built up testing capacity. however, we didn't think that it was ever safe to rely only on testing, for the reason is that, even if we accept asymptomatic transmission happens, there is and was doubt about the reliability of tests to detect the virus and people who are

asymptomatic or presymptomatic. when i was preparing for todaypass to session, on the date, i think the zist session, on the date, i think the 21st of april, whenjeane freeman made the statement in parliament extending the testing tool emissions from hospital to care homes, the advice that was still coming to us at that point was sceptical about testing and a concern that it would take away a focus on isolation and other infection prevention and control means. so we factored all of this into our decision—making and on this, as in all other things, tried to make the best decisions that we could in the circumstances we were in at the time. could in the circumstances we were in at the time-— in at the time. where you aware of recommendations _ in at the time. where you aware of recommendations made _ in at the time. where you aware of recommendations made in - in at the time. where you aware of recommendations made in april i in at the time. where you aware of i recommendations made in april 2022 the scottish— recommendations made in april 2022 the scottish government _ recommendations made in april 2022 the scottish government in _ recommendations made in april 2022 the scottish government in relation l the scottish government in relation to the _ the scottish government in relation to the restriction _ the scottish government in relation to the restriction on _ the scottish government in relation to the restriction on visiting - the scottish government in relation to the restriction on visiting care i to the restriction on visiting care homes _ to the restriction on visiting care homes are — to the restriction on visiting care homes are being _ to the restriction on visiting care homes are being increasingly . homes are being increasingly disproportionate _ homes are being increasingly disproportionate and - homes are being increasingly disproportionate and failing i homes are being increasinglyl disproportionate and failing to homes are being increasingly - disproportionate and failing to meet the pastoral— disproportionate and failing to meet the pastoral needs _ disproportionate and failing to meet the pastoral needs and _ disproportionate and failing to meet the pastoral needs and care - disproportionate and failing to meet the pastoral needs and care of- the pastoral needs and care of individuals. _ the pastoral needs and care of individuals, care _ the pastoral needs and care of individuals, care needs- the pastoral needs and care of individuals, care needs of- individuals, care needs of individuals— individuals, care needs of individuals and _ individuals, care needs of individuals and the - individuals, care needs of. individuals and the traumatic individuals, care needs of- individuals and the traumatic effect this was— individuals and the traumatic effect this was having _ individuals and the traumatic effect

this was having on _ individuals and the traumatic effect this was having on families? - individuals and the traumatic effect this was having on families? and . individuals and the traumatic effect this was having on families? and if| this was having on families? and if so, how— this was having on families? and if so, how did — this was having on families? and if so, how did this _ this was having on families? and if so, how did this affect _ this was having on families? and if so, how did this affect your- so, how did this affect your decision—making _ so, how did this affect your decision—making process? i so, how did this affect your. decision—making process? in so, how did this affect your decision-making process? in my exoerience _ decision-making process? in my experience and _ decision-making process? in my experience and recollection, - decision-making process? in my experience and recollection, the| experience and recollection, the issue of care home visiting was one of the most difficult, because i was aware of the increasing distress and trauma, both to care home residents and to their loved ones, of restrictions on visiting. and that was an issue on which we were always trying to strike a balance between opening up and allowing much more flexibility in terms of visiting, but trying to guard against infection being in homes. i don't think we got that right, possibly, at all. but it was not because we didn't care, it was not because we didn't care, it was not because we didn't try to get that right. and i have had in the past, i have at the

moment, relatives and care homes myself. i understand where i think i can understand how awful that would have been for any family with a loved one in a care home at that time. �* time. 0k. and when the united kinudom time. 0k. and when the united kingdom government - time. 0k. and when the united kingdom government changed | time. 0k. and when the united l kingdom government changed its policy— kingdom government changed its policy in — kingdom government changed its policy in relation _ kingdom government changed its policy in relation to _ kingdom government changed its policy in relation to care - kingdom government changed its policy in relation to care home . policy in relation to care home testing — policy in relation to care home testing on— policy in relation to care home testing on the _ policy in relation to care home testing on the 15th _ policy in relation to care home testing on the 15th of - policy in relation to care home testing on the 15th of april- policy in relation to care home i testing on the 15th of april 2020, why did _ testing on the 15th of april 2020, why did that's _ testing on the 15th of april 2020, why did that's not _ testing on the 15th of april 2020, why did that's not because - testing on the 15th of april 2020, why did that's not because the i why did that's not because the scottish— why did that's not because the scottish government - why did that's not because the scottish government to - why did that's not because the l scottish government to consider why did that's not because the - scottish government to consider its position— scottish government to consider its position or— scottish government to consider its position or review— scottish government to consider its position or review it? _ scottish government to consider its position or review it? we _ scottish government to consider its position or review it?— position or review it? we were considering — position or review it? we were considering and _ position or review it? we were considering and reviewing - position or review it? we were considering and reviewing our| considering and reviewing our position at that time will stop i think i'm getting the date right, that on the 21st of apriljeane freeman announced a range of different things, it including care home testing, so our position was under regular, constant ongoing review and assessment at that time. it is clear from the necessity of setting — it is clear from the necessity of setting up— it is clear from the necessity of setting up the _ it is clear from the necessity of setting up the no _ it is clear from the necessity of setting up the no sock- it is clear from the necessity of setting up the no sock o neill. setting up the no sock o neill review— setting up the no sock o neill review group _ setting up the no sock o neill review group in _ setting up the no sock o neill review group in 2020 - setting up the no sock o neill review group in 2020 that - setting up the no sock o neilli review group in 2020 that the hospital — review group in 2020 that the hospital recognised _ review group in 2020 that the

hospital recognised this - review group in 2020 that the i hospital recognised this affection was a _ hospital recognised this affection was a particular— hospital recognised this affection was a particular risk. _ hospital recognised this affection was a particular risk. can- hospital recognised this affection was a particular risk. can you - was a particular risk. can you reveai— was a particular risk. can you reveal why— was a particular risk. can you reveal why it _ was a particular risk. can you reveal why it was _ was a particular risk. can you reveal why it was decided - was a particular risk. can you reveal why it was decided tol was a particular risk. can you i reveal why it was decided to set was a particular risk. can you - reveal why it was decided to set up his body— reveal why it was decided to set up his body early— reveal why it was decided to set up his body early in— reveal why it was decided to set up his body early in the _ reveal why it was decided to set up his body early in the pandemic? i his body early in the pandemic? because — his body early in the pandemic? because we _ his body early in the pandemic? because we understood, - his body early in the pandemic? because we understood, both . his body early in the pandemic? i because we understood, both from his body early in the pandemic? - because we understood, both from the emerging experience in covid, but also from wider experience around hospital infection that the particular risk of soaker meal infections in hospitals and we were seeking to make sure on an ongoing basis there was expert advice and consideration given to how those risks could be reduced in hospitals. just to take you back to your statement _ just to take you back to your statement and _ just to take you back to your statement and look - just to take you back to your statement and look at - just to take you back to your statement and look at it - just to take you back to your. statement and look at it again, just to take you back to your - statement and look at it again, at the beginning _ statement and look at it again, at the beginning of— statement and look at it again, at the beginning of your— statement and look at it again, ati the beginning of your questioning, paragraph — the beginning of your questioning, paragraph 45, _ the beginning of your questioning, paragraph 45, you _ the beginning of your questioning, paragraph 455, you referred - the beginning of your questioning, paragraph 455, you referred to, i the beginning of your questioning, l paragraph 455, you referred to, the advice _ paragraph 455, you referred to, the advice at _ paragraph 455, you referred to, the advice at that — paragraph 455, you referred to, the advice at that time _ paragraph 455, you referred to, the advice at that time was _ paragraph 455, you referred to, the advice at that time was the - advice at that time was the limitations _ advice at that time was the limitations of— advice at that time was the limitations of pcr - advice at that time was the limitations of pcr testing i advice at that time was the i limitations of pcr testing for presymptomatic— limitations of pcr testing for presymptomatic and - limitations of pcr testing for presymptomatic and a - limitations of pcr testing for i presymptomatic and a somatic limitations of pcr testing for - presymptomatic and a somatic death asymptomatic— presymptomatic and a somatic death asymptomatic cases _ presymptomatic and a somatic death asymptomatic cases may— presymptomatic and a somatic death asymptomatic cases may resolve - presymptomatic and a somatic death asymptomatic cases may resolve in i asymptomatic cases may resolve in false reassurance, _ asymptomatic cases may resolve in false reassurance, therefore - false reassurance, therefore prevention _ false reassurance, therefore prevention and _ false reassurance, therefore prevention and control- false reassurance, therefore - prevention and control measures should _

prevention and control measures should be — prevention and control measures should be focused _ prevention and control measures should be focused on. _ prevention and control measures should be focused on. further, l prevention and control measures l should be focused on. further, the fact that _ should be focused on. further, the fact that there _ should be focused on. further, the fact that there was _ should be focused on. further, the fact that there was limited - should be focused on. further, the fact that there was limited testing i fact that there was limited testing capacity— fact that there was limited testing capacity in— fact that there was limited testing capacity in march _ fact that there was limited testing capacity in march 2020 _ fact that there was limited testing capacity in march 2020 and - fact that there was limited testing capacity in march 2020 and that l fact that there was limited testing i capacity in march 2020 and that the world _ capacity in march 2020 and that the world heatth— capacity in march 2020 and that the world health organization - capacity in march 2020 and that the world health organization guidance i world health organization guidance at the _ world health organization guidance at the time — world health organization guidance at the time was _ world health organization guidance at the time was clear— world health organization guidance at the time was clear that _ world health organization guidance at the time was clear that testing i at the time was clear that testing all hospital— at the time was clear that testing all hospital discharges _ at the time was clear that testing all hospital discharges was - at the time was clear that testing all hospital discharges was not i at the time was clear that testing. all hospital discharges was not the best use _ all hospital discharges was not the best use of— all hospital discharges was not the best use of capacity— all hospital discharges was not the best use of capacity while - all hospital discharges was not the best use of capacity while it - all hospital discharges was not the best use of capacity while it was i best use of capacity while it was still being — best use of capacity while it was still being expanded. _ best use of capacity while it was still being expanded. and - best use of capacity while it was still being expanded. and yet, l best use of capacity while it was i still being expanded. and yet, very frail still being expanded. and yet, very frait people — still being expanded. and yet, very frait peddle with _ still being expanded. and yet, very frail people with complex _ still being expanded. and yet, very frail people with complex needs . still being expanded. and yet, very. frail people with complex needs were bein- frail people with complex needs were being moved — frail people with complex needs were being moved in— frail people with complex needs were being moved in circumstances- frail people with complex needs were being moved in circumstances where| being moved in circumstances where you are _ being moved in circumstances where you are being— being moved in circumstances where you are being aware _ being moved in circumstances where you are being aware of— being moved in circumstances where you are being aware of the _ being moved in circumstances where you are being aware of the problems of asymptomatic _ you are being aware of the problems of asymptomatic transfer, _ of asymptomatic transfer, presymptomatic— of asymptomatic transfer, presymptomatic transfer i of asymptomatic transfer, i presymptomatic transfer and of asymptomatic transfer, - presymptomatic transfer and the problems— presymptomatic transfer and the problems of— presymptomatic transfer and the problems of assurance. - presymptomatic transfer and the problems of assurance. why, - presymptomatic transfer and the . problems of assurance. why, then, wash't _ problems of assurance. why, then, wasn't considered _ problems of assurance. why, then, wasn't considered in _ problems of assurance. why, then, wasn't considered in all— problems of assurance. why, then, wasn't considered in all the - wasn't considered in all the circumstances _ wasn't considered in all the circumstances safer- wasn't considered in all the circumstances safer to - wasn't considered in all the i circumstances safer to remove wasn't considered in all the - circumstances safer to remove them at att— circumstances safer to remove them at all and _ circumstances safer to remove them at all and would _ circumstances safer to remove them at all and would you _ circumstances safer to remove them at all and would you have _ circumstances safer to remove them at all and would you have taken - circumstances safer to remove them at all and would you have taken the i at all and would you have taken the same _ at all and would you have taken the same decision— at all and would you have taken the same decision again, _ at all and would you have taken the same decision again, knowing - at all and would you have taken the same decision again, knowing whati same decision again, knowing what you know— same decision again, knowing what you know how? _ same decision again, knowing what you know now? and _ same decision again, knowing what you know now? and if— same decision again, knowing what you know now? and if not, - same decision again, knowing what you know now? and if not, what i same decision again, knowing what . you know now? and if not, what would you know now? and if not, what would you have _ you know now? and if not, what would you have done — you know now? and if not, what would you have done differently— you know now? and if not, what would you have done differently and - you know now? and if not, what would you have done differently and why? . you know now? and if not, what would you have done differently and why? i. you have done differently and why? i would you have done differently and why? would desperately try to find ways of managing the situation of elderly people in hospital who didn't have a medical need to be in hospital differently. that would have, if not prevented, because in the face of

what we were dealing with, i am not sure if absolute prevention would have ever been possible, but to mitigate and minimise what happened beyond reality. i would do everything in my power, and i wish i could turn the clock back and do things differently in care homes that would limit the loss of life there, but it wouldn't have changed there, but it wouldn't have changed the situation where leaving people in hospitals would not have been an option that was without risk. there was nosocomial infection in hospital, there were covid patients in hospital. we didn't, thankfully, face the overwhelming level in hospitals in the way that had been seenin hospitals in the way that had been seen in other countries at the start of the pandemic. but hospitals would not have been a risk—free environment for vulnerable people either. and that is the context in

which these decisions had to be made. and i desperately wish we could have had the ability to do things in a way that didn't result in the outcome but did materialise. —— the outcome that did to realise. and when the retention of these patients— and when the retention of these patients in— and when the retention of these patients in hospital— and when the retention of these patients in hospital have - and when the retention of these patients in hospital have been. and when the retention of these i patients in hospital have been the best place — patients in hospital have been the best place to _ patients in hospital have been the best place to meet _ patients in hospital have been the best place to meet their- patients in hospital have been the best place to meet their care - patients in hospital have been the . best place to meet their care needs, rather— best place to meet their care needs, rather than — best place to meet their care needs, rather than putting _ best place to meet their care needs, rather than putting them _ best place to meet their care needs, rather than putting them into - best place to meet their care needs, rather than putting them into care i rather than putting them into care homes, _ rather than putting them into care homes, where _ rather than putting them into care homes, where they— rather than putting them into care homes, where they would - rather than putting them into care homes, where they would have i rather than putting them into care i homes, where they would have been putting _ homes, where they would have been putting other— homes, where they would have been putting other vulnerable _ homes, where they would have been putting other vulnerable people - homes, where they would have been putting other vulnerable people in. putting other vulnerable people in harms _ putting other vulnerable people in harms way? — putting other vulnerable people in harms way?— putting other vulnerable people in harmswa 7�* ., . . harms way? anybody who had a medical need to be in — harms way? anybody who had a medical need to be in hospital _ harms way? anybody who had a medical need to be in hospital should _ harms way? anybody who had a medical need to be in hospital should have - need to be in hospital should have beenin need to be in hospital should have been in hospital. we were talking about discharge of people who didn't have a medical need to be in hospital. and discharge to their own home or to a care home was considered to be... was considered to be better than keeping them in a

hospital environment and keeping itself would not have been at risk of covid transmission. that was the advice at the time. these were the judgments that were made at the time. and yes, i think it would have been... i wish we had been able to introduce testing earlier, more comprehensively. but i don't think that, in and of itself, would have removed the risks of care, admission and that is why i am saying i think there are a variety of issues that also need to be properly considered, in terms of the circumstances of discharge to care homes. but i don't, i don't think i can sit here and say that keeping people in hospital would have been without risks. or certainly, at that time, would not have seemed to me to be

the situation. would not have seemed to me to be the situation-— the situation. one final question, ms sturgeon- _ the situation. one final question, ms sturgeon. whether _ the situation. one final question, ms sturgeon. whether any - the situation. one final question, - ms sturgeon. whether any discussions about what— ms sturgeon. whether any discussions about what would _ ms sturgeon. whether any discussions about what would happen _ ms sturgeon. whether any discussions about what would happen if _ ms sturgeon. whether any discussions about what would happen if a - about what would happen if a criminal— about what would happen if a criminal trial— about what would happen if a criminal trial of— about what would happen if a criminal trial of the _ about what would happen if a criminal trial of the former. about what would happen if a . criminal trial of the former first minister— criminal trial of the former first minister alex _ criminal trial of the former first minister alex salmond - criminal trial of the former first minister alex salmond was - criminal trial of the former first minister alex salmond was stillj minister alex salmond was still ongoing — minister alex salmond was still ongoing at— minister alex salmond was still ongoing at the _ minister alex salmond was still ongoing at the time _ minister alex salmond was still ongoing at the time of- minister alex salmond was still . ongoing at the time of lockdown? minister alex salmond was still - ongoing at the time of lockdown? and did the _ ongoing at the time of lockdown? and did the fact _ ongoing at the time of lockdown? and did the fact that — ongoing at the time of lockdown? and did the fact that it _ ongoing at the time of lockdown? and did the fact that it was _ ongoing at the time of lockdown? and did the fact that it was have _ ongoing at the time of lockdown? and did the fact that it was have any- did the fact that it was have any effect _ did the fact that it was have any effect of— did the fact that it was have any effect of the _ did the fact that it was have any effect of the timing _ did the fact that it was have any effect of the timing of - did the fact that it was have any effect of the timing of the - did the fact that it was have any- effect of the timing of the lockdown being _ effect of the timing of the lockdown being put _ effect of the timing of the lockdown being put in— effect of the timing of the lockdown being put in place _ effect of the timing of the lockdown being put in place in— effect of the timing of the lockdown being put in place in scotland? - effect of the timing of the lockdown being put in place in scotland? ho.| being put in place in scotland? no. thank you. — being put in place in scotland? no. thank you. my _ being put in place in scotland? thank you, my lady, those being put in place in scotland? iii, thank you, my lady, those are being put in place in scotland?- thank you, my lady, those are my questions — thank you, my lady, those are my questions-— thank you, my lady, those are my cuestions. . ,, ~ a , questions. thank you, mr mccaffrey. that completes _ questions. thank you, mr mccaffrey. that completes the _ questions. thank you, mr mccaffrey. that completes the evidence - questions. thank you, mr mccaffrey. that completes the evidence for - that completes the evidence for today _ that completes the evidence for toda . , ., ~ that completes the evidence for toda. , . ,, that completes the evidence for toda. , . , that completes the evidence for toda. , .~g , today. yes, thank you, my lady. thank you _ today. yes, thank you, my lady. thank you very _ today. yes, thank you, my lady. thank you very much, _ today. yes, thank you, my lady. thank you very much, ms - today. yes, thank you, my lady. - thank you very much, ms sturgeon. i don't _ thank you very much, ms sturgeon. i don't know— thank you very much, ms sturgeon. i don't know if— thank you very much, ms sturgeon. i don't know if we can guarantee that we want _ don't know if we can guarantee that we want to— don't know if we can guarantee that we want to be calling upon you again. — we want to be calling upon you again. but— we want to be calling upon you again, but i know we have already catted _ again, but i know we have already called on — again, but i know we have already called on your twice. probably untikety, _ called on your twice. probably unlikely, but thank you for your help— unlikely, but thank you for your help today. i noticed some members of the _ help today. i noticed some members of the public gallery are distressed. please note there is support— distressed. please note there is support available if you need it. 10am _ support available if you need it. 10am tomorrow, please. baroness hallett there joining today's —— drawing to davis events of the covid inquiry to a close. that was nicola

sturgeon being interviewed, he was of course first minister of scotland during the whole of the pandemic and baroness are referencing some of those in the public gallery and we know throughout the inquiry there have been the loved ones of some of those who died during the pandemic following all of the evidence. nicola sturgeon was asked about meeting the families of covid victims. she told the inquiry that people will always judge her and her government on their performance during the pandemic. i their performance during the pandemic-— their performance during the andemic. . ., . ., ., pandemic. i am fortunate position of not havin: pandemic. i am fortunate position of not having personally _ pandemic. i am fortunate position of not having personally lost _ pandemic. i am fortunate position of not having personally lost anyone i pandemic. i am fortunate position of not having personally lost anyone to| not having personally lost anyone to covid. i wish with every fibre of my being that the decisions my government had been able to take could have reduced the numbers of people today in scotland that did lose someone to covid. and i am deeply sorry to each and every bereaved person and each and every person who suffered in other ways. i did my best. our government did its best. and people willjudge that.

but i know that every day i tried my best and those working with me tried our best to steer this country through the covid pandemic in the best we could.— through the covid pandemic in the best we could. let's go live now to our scotland _ best we could. let's go live now to our scotland political _ our scotland political correspondent, david wallace lockhart, who is in edinburgh has been following all of the testimony there at the inquiry. good to see you. a long day of evidence given by nicola sturgeon. taker the key points. nicola sturgeon. taker the key oints. , �* nicola sturgeon. taker the key oints. ,�* . ., nicola sturgeon. taker the key oints. , ~ . ., , nicola sturgeon. taker the key oints. , ~ . ., ., points. yes. a mammoth session of evidence there _ points. yes. a mammoth session of evidence there from _ points. yes. a mammoth session of evidence there from the _ points. yes. a mammoth session of evidence there from the former- points. yes. a mammoth session of| evidence there from the former first minister. and i think it is worth reflecting on the fact that obviously during the pandemic she was the very recognisable face of the scottish government. then she stopped being first minister of scotland, she has been less in the public eye and today was a reminder of, you know, that skill that even her opponents say she has of being a very effective political communicator, talking about many aspects of pandemic management and, you know, she seemed uncomfortable

ground. they were a few areas, perhaps, where nicola sturgeon had a bit more difficulty, i would say, explaining her situation. there was, of course, those whatsapp messages on the pandemic that she has deleted. that was how the inquiry started today, with questions about that, and nicola sturgeon did point to current scottish government guidance that said ministers could delete whatsapp, provided that they had saved important information centrally in advance of that. she said that was the approach she took, similar to other ministers and officials. she did apologise if she had given the impression at an earlier date that this inquiry would have more access to her phone messages and it ultimately had in the end. another factor discussed quite extensively at the inquiry today was ms sturgeon's leadership style. there has been criticism that she relied on a small group of close political allies to make the big calls and she pushed back into this, saying that she expected input from her cabinet ministers, that she expected them to be briefed and

having put to the big decisions that she didn't have or want, carte blanche, in that respect. you played a clip fare of nicola sturgeon at one point becoming quite emotional. that wasn't the only point that happened. earlier in today's proceedings, she got asked about whether she was the right first minister for the time and she said there were actually points during there were actually points during the pandemic she really wished she wasn't in that position and i think you got a bit of an insight fare into the personal toll that being a leading politician at a time of national emergency can perhaps take on an individual. she national emergency can perhaps take on an individual.— on an individual. she also talked very honestly — on an individual. she also talked very honestly about _ on an individual. she also talked very honestly about the - on an individual. she also talked very honestly about the number| on an individual. she also talked l very honestly about the number of deaths, she said, ifeel to my core the number of lives lost to this pandemic were far too high. so a certain number or a certain amount of, if not personal regret, then regret at the huge death toll that scotland saw?— regret at the huge death toll that scotland saw? , . �* , ., scotland saw? yes, that's right and of course the _ scotland saw? yes, that's right and of course the whole _ scotland saw? yes, that's right and of course the whole point _ scotland saw? yes, that's right and of course the whole point in - scotland saw? yes, that's right and of course the whole point in this - of course the whole point in this inquiry is about learning lessons and trying to work out what could be potentially done differently in a

future pandemic. nicola sturgeon there reflected on the fact that one of her biggest regrets is perhaps not locking down one or two weeks earlier. but we are looking back to that pandemic at the moment with hindsight and forgetting, you know, potentially what the situation was like at the time and the fact that, really, it was quite an unprecedented situation but had never been faced before, certainly in living memory in this country. there was, of course, fundamentally questions about politics as well this afternoon and questions about whether nicola sturgeon, who was the first to admit that she has been a campaignerfor first to admit that she has been a campaigner for independence her entire adult life, if she ever tried to use the pandemic at any point to push that agenda forward. she actually said that during the pandemic that was the least she has ever really thought about her party, the snp�*s founding goal at any point in her time reading it. there were perhaps may be slightly awkward moments for her. cabinet minutes produced that talked about giving

consideration to restarting work on independence. they were from june 2020, where we know now the pandemic had still quite a long way to go. nicola sturgeon said she was perhaps likely dancing on the head of a pin here, but talking about considering restarting that work was different from actually restarting that work, something she said she would never have accepted at that time. another area, a bit of a focus on recurring theme from today, is of course that relationship between the scottish government and the uk government. clear at points that there was a real tension in that relationship, notjust institutionally, but perhaps between individuals, nicola sturgeon making it clear that she didn't feel boris johnson, who sturgeon making it clear that she didn't feel borisjohnson, who was uk prime minister at that time, was the right man to be leading the uk through a pandemic. we had already seen some slightly disappointing messages nicola sturgeon had said billie sent about borisjohnson where she called him a clown and something else we wouldn't be able to repeat on television. 50 something else we wouldn't be able to repeat on television. so perhaps, whether that was interesting to

cover that aspect of intergovernmental relationships, no surprises that those two individuals, by the looks of things, didn't really get on as leaders. yes, that won't come as a surprise to many people who are familiar with the relationship between them. david, thank you very much for taking us through all of that. we are waiting for nicola sturgeon to leave the inquiry. david, for now, thank you. let's go to another of our top stories today. the government has published the details of the deal that has suspended the suspension of stormont in northern ireland. the dup leader, sirjeffrey donaldson, says the new deal will end checks on most goods entering northern ireland from great britain. ., . , , , britain. today i am publishing the details of this _ britain. today i am publishing the details of this deal, _ britain. today i am publishing the details of this deal, but _ britain. today i am publishing the details of this deal, but i - britain. today i am publishing the details of this deal, but i am - britain. today i am publishing the

details of this deal, but i am also| details of this deal, but i am also laying the statutory influence —— and trying several of its commitments in law. those instruments will be debated in this house tomorrow, subject to a change of business in future with the house and an immediate show of good faith. and once, as i hope they will be, they are passed by this house, i trust we will have the conditions to move onwards to see ministers back in post—install mods swiftly. and as they take their places, they will face massive challenges. but so is well do they have the tools to grasp them, not least resolving the public sector pay issues that have been so disrupted. and as well as that, they will be able to grasp the opportunities offered by its unique economic position and the goodwill that northern ireland enjoys across the world. and, mr speaker, it is only right that i acknowledge that for many in the community, an important part of this will will be seeing michelle o'neill take her

place as first minister, following the democratic mandate she won at the democratic mandate she won at the may 2022 assembly election, recognising that the first and deputy first ministers remain equal in law. i look forward to working with the new first minister, deputy first minister, although colleagues in the northern ireland executive to improve the lives of people from all backgrounds, whether unionist, nationalist or other. as we move forward swiftly to give effect to our commitments, i urge other parties to do the same thing in notifying the speaker of the northern ireland assembly to recall stormont, elect a first minister and deputy first minister and appoint new ministers to the executive. mr speaker, it is time to build on the progress of the last 25 years. today we have presented a plan which will deliver the long—term change nor the land needs. it will strengthen northern ireland's place in our union and guarantee the free flow of goods across the entire united kingdom. and it is only by sticking to this plan that we will become a

more united and prosperous country together. f5.1"er more united and prosperous country touether. . _, , together. our ireland correspondent, chris pace, together. our ireland correspondent, chris page. the _ together. our ireland correspondent, chris page, the latest _ together. our ireland correspondent, chris page, the latest details - together. our ireland correspondent, chris page, the latest details from i chris page, the latest details from belfast. .. g chris page, the latest details from belfast. ~ chris page, the latest details from belfast. ,, belfast. saturday looks like the day when northern _ belfast. saturday looks like the day when northern ireland _ belfast. saturday looks like the day when northern ireland will- when northern ireland will officially get its devolved government back after an absence of two years. it will be actually two years to the day since the institutions, in effect, collapsed backin institutions, in effect, collapsed back in 2022. the democratic unionist party first minister, paul gibbon, resigned from the position then, meaning that devolution basically could not function, so exactly two years after that date, the 3rd of february this saturday, there will be a new first minister at stormont and that will be michelle o'neill, the sinn fein vice president, she will be the first irish nationalists to take up that position and she will be joined at the head, as it were, of the northern ireland executive by a senior member of the democratic unionist party. we don't know exactly who that will be just yet, but that dup politician will be the

deputy first minister. in real terms, the powers of the first minister and deputy first minister are equal, they cannot operate without the other and each has a veto over the other�*s official policy movements, as it were. but the fact that one has the title of first minister and the other has the title of deputy first minister, but of course does matter, especially in a place like northern ireland where titles and symbolism hold such importance, so the fact that it is going to be sinn fein in the first minister's chair when that assembly meets the saturday and not the dup, as it has been for most of the previous 20 years, well, that in and of itself will be a major moment. chris page there. people in england with a number of common health issues can now get treatment from a chemist, instead of having to go to a gp. pharmacists will be able to prescribe medicines for conditions like shingles, sinusitis and infected insects billie insect bites. the scheme matches what already happens in other parts of

the uk and it has estimated it will save 10 million gp appointments a year. hugh pym has more. good mornin: , year. hugh pym has more. good morning. you — year. hugh pym has more. good morning, you need _ year. hugh pym has more. good morning, you need a _ year. hugh pym has more. good morning, you need a vexation i year. hugh pym has more. (13cm morning, you need a vexation on thursday, friday and saturday. thea;r thursday, friday and saturday. they are at the heart _ thursday, friday and saturday. they are at the heart of— thursday, friday and saturday. they are at the heart of our— thursday, friday and saturday. they are at the heart of our communities. from today, high—street pharmacies in england will be able to ease even more of the burden on overstretched gp surgeries. 50. more of the burden on overstretched gp surgeries-— gp surgeries. so, i woke up on saturday night _ gp surgeries. so, i woke up on saturday night with... - gp surgeries. so, i woke up on saturday night with... patientsj gp surgeries. so, i woke up on - saturday night with... patients with seven new conditions _ saturday night with... patients with seven new conditions can _ saturday night with... patients with seven new conditions can come - seven new conditions can come straight to the pharmacy without booking an appointment. middle ear infections as one of them. it is infections as one of them. it is still blocked, _ infections as one of them. it is still blocked, there _ infections as one of them. it is still blocked, there is - infections as one of them. it is still blocked, there is loss of hearing. _ still blocked, there is loss of hearing, it is making me feel a bit dizzy _ hearing, it is making me feel a bit dizzy i_ hearing, it is making me feel a bit dizzy. i spoke to the gp and they referred — dizzy. i spoke to the gp and they referred me here. this dizzy. i spoke to the gp and they referred me here. this pharmacy in south bristol _ referred me here. this pharmacy in south bristol has _ referred me here. this pharmacy in south bristol has been _ referred me here. this pharmacy in south bristol has been trialling - south bristol has been trialling this new scheme for a year, with great success.— this new scheme for a year, with great success. this new scheme for a year, with treat success. ,. , ., . great success. the past, we would at different points _ great success. the past, we would at different points feel— great success. the past, we would at different points feel very _ different points feel very frustrated for our patients, but we cannot do more. and most community pharmacies live with that. any

opportunity to do more for them actually means that not only are they better, but the whole nhs system becomes more stable. you want me? you've _ system becomes more stable. you want me? you've got — system becomes more stable. you want me? you've got me. _ system becomes more stable. you want me? you've got me. ali's _ system becomes more stable. you want me? you've got me. ali's a _ me? you've got me. ali's a two-year-old _ me? you've got me. ali's a two-year-old son, - me? you've got me. ali's a two-year-old son, duncan, me? you've got me. ali's a - two-year-old son, duncan, has spots two—year—old son, duncan, has spots on his chin and she is worried. filth. on his chin and she is worried. oh, i on his chin and she is worried. oh, i suspected — on his chin and she is worried. oh, i suspected he _ on his chin and she is worried. oh, i suspected he has impetigo. so i on his chin and she is worried. oh, l i suspected he has impetigo. so she sto ed b i suspected he has impetigo. so she stopped by on _ i suspected he has impetigo. so she stopped by on the — i suspected he has impetigo. so she stopped by on the school _ i suspected he has impetigo. so she stopped by on the school run. - i suspected he has impetigo. so she stopped by on the school run. so . stopped by on the school run. so usually with impetigo they spread guite _ usually with impetigo they spread quite quickly as well. this pharmacist _ quite quickly as well. this pharmacist jeannie - quite quickly as well. try 3 pharmacist jeannie agrees with pharmacistjeannie agrees with impetigo now on the list of conditions. duncan is prescribed medication quickly and ali has been saved a possibly long wait for a gp appointment. it is saved a possibly long wait for a gp appointment-— saved a possibly long wait for a gp appointment. it is less than an hour from when — appointment. it is less than an hour from when we _ appointment. it is less than an hour from when we came _ appointment. it is less than an hour from when we came in _ appointment. it is less than an hour from when we came in on _ appointment. it is less than an hour from when we came in on our- appointment. it is less than an hour from when we came in on our way l appointment. it is less than an hour| from when we came in on our way to the school— from when we came in on our way to the school run. — from when we came in on our way to the school run. so _ from when we came in on our way to the school run, so yes, _ from when we came in on our way to the school run, so yes, really- the school run, so yes, really usefut~ — the school run, so yes, really useful. having _ the school run, so yes, really useful. having a _ the school run, so yes, really useful. having a service - the school run, so yes, really useful. having a service like. the school run, so yes, really. useful. having a service like this will really — useful. having a service like this will really benefit _ useful. having a service like this will really benefit a _ useful. having a service like this will really benefit a lot _ useful. having a service like this will really benefit a lot of- will really benefit a lot of people. in will really benefit a lot of people. in the _ will really benefit a lot of people. in the meantime, _ will really benefit a lot of people. in the meantime, ali— will really benefit a lot of people. in the meantime, ali continues . will really benefit a lot of people. i in the meantime, ali continues with established services, giving covid and flu vaccines.— established services, giving covid and flu vaccines. which hand would ou like? and flu vaccines. which hand would you like? i — and flu vaccines. which hand would you like? i know _ and flu vaccines. which hand would you like? i know this _ and flu vaccines. which hand would you like? i know this has _ and flu vaccines. which hand would you like? i know this has been - and flu vaccines. which hand would you like? i know this has been out| you like? i know this has been out of stock forever, _ you like? i know this has been out of stock forever, but _ you like? i know this has been out of stock forever, but we _ you like? i know this has been out of stock forever, but we will - you like? i know this has been out of stock forever, but we will have | you like? i know this has been out| of stock forever, but we will have a

go. of stock forever, but we will have a a 0. p, of stock forever, but we will have a to. ., , ., ., , . of stock forever, but we will have a to. ., ,., ., , . go. lemon is out. no plane as well. you want to — go. lemon is out. no plane as well. you want to get. — go. lemon is out. no plane as well. you want to get, i _ go. lemon is out. no plane as well. you want to get, i will— go. lemon is out. no plane as well. you want to get, i will get - go. lemon is out. no plane as well. you want to get, i will get that - go. lemon is out. no plane as well. you want to get, i will get that and | you want to get, i will get that and 0k, you want to get, i will get that and 0k. i_ you want to get, i will get that and 0k. iwitt— you want to get, i will get that and ok, i will pop back in. the you want to get, i will get that and ok, i will pop back in.— ok, i will pop back in. the reality for pharmacists _ ok, i will pop back in. the reality for pharmacists like _ ok, i will pop back in. the reality for pharmacists like ali, - ok, i will pop back in. the reality for pharmacists like ali, patients | for pharmacists like ali, patients can be frustrated. find for pharmacists like ali, patients can be frustrated.— for pharmacists like ali, patients can be frustrated. and you haven't come back — can be frustrated. and you haven't come back since _ can be frustrated. and you haven't come back since then? _ can be frustrated. and you haven't come back since then? know, - can be frustrated. and you haven't come back since then? know, i- can be frustrated. and you haven't l come back since then? know, i have been in twice- _ come back since then? know, i have been in twice. you _ come back since then? know, i have been in twice. you were _ come back since then? know, i have been in twice. you were not - come back since then? know, i have been in twice. you were not at - come back since then? know, i have been in twice. you were not at the i been in twice. you were not at the clinic, i been in twice. you were not at the clinic. i am — been in twice. you were not at the clinic, i am really— been in twice. you were not at the clinic, i am really sorry _ been in twice. you were not at the clinic, i am really sorry about - clinic, i am really sorry about that — clinic, i am really sorry about that. ~ ., clinic, i am really sorry about that. ~ . ., . that. with demand on local pharmacies _ that. with demand on local pharmacies going, - that. with demand on local pharmacies going, id - that. with demand on local pharmacies going, id is - that. with demand on local i pharmacies going, id is aware that. with demand on local - pharmacies going, id is aware many chemists in his area code, putting more pressure on his staff rotor and his budget is under strain. that more pressure on his staff rotor and his budget is under strain.— his budget is under strain. that is the dilemma _ his budget is under strain. that is the dilemma we _ his budget is under strain. that is the dilemma we are _ his budget is under strain. that is the dilemma we are facing, - his budget is under strain. that is the dilemma we are facing, so i the dilemma we are facing, so certainty. _ the dilemma we are facing, so certainly, more funding seems now to be the _ certainly, more funding seems now to be the consensus, but this is an underfunded service. do mind? but add underfunded service. do mind? addy says underfunded service. do mind? but addy says the new scheme does bring more satisfaction in hisjob. hugh pym, bbc news, bristol. time for a check on the weather now, here is chris fawkes. hello there, many

people across the north were treated to a stunning sunrise, the rising sun picking up cloud from a rapidly approaching area of low pressure. the pressure in charge is storm england, which is well to the north of the uk or at least the centre is, but this is one of the most powerful storms i have ever seen. earlier this morning, and one of the road sensors by the public body in charge of roads and the faroe islands, they had a measure of 155 mph, which would dwarf anything that has come our way, after a storm nearly 40 years ago. thankfully, we are far from the centre, but it was still so very windy across scotland, guests reaching 80 mph north to places like shetland, elsewhere down to 65 mph, a heavy band of rain pushing its way

in, the brightest towards the south eastern areas of the country. overnight tonight our cold weather front will push its way southwards and as it does so, these guys will continue to clear and we will see temperatures drop away sharply. where the winds were light, you could have a few patches of frosty, but showers across northern areas of scotland, a bit of snow over some of the highest scottish mountains. into thursday, a ridge of high pressure building in from the south, another approaching by the front heading toward scotland, so some contrast again north to south, a relatively quiet weather picture, may be few mist and fog patches to start the day across wales, otherwise sunshine, outbreaks of rain working across scotland for the afternoon and it will be another pretty windy day, although wind is not as strong as they are today. a similar kind of north— south split on friday in that we still have relatively high pressure in the south, albeit probably a bit more in the way of bright spells coming through, again

scotland seeing the windiest weather with outbreaks of rain heading in. very mild, though, captures reaching 14 degrees in aberdeen and london, the average in london at this time of year is 8 degrees. over the weekend it milder and it stays mild into the first part next as well. —— back into the first part of next week as well.

live from london. this is bbc news. tech bosses are grilled by the us congress — accused of failing to protect children from online abuse. mr zuckerberg, doing the company is before us, i know you don't mean to before us, i know you don't mean to be sold, but you have blood on your hands. be so, but you have blood on your hands. the uk government says there'll be an end to checks on goods shipped from britain to northern ireland — as part of plans to restore power

sharing at stormont. a news conference in the northern ireland secretary and the dup in this half hour. admitting to the inquiry that she deleted whatsapp messages sent during the pandemic. and with the advice and it always been given since my first day in government was not to retain conversations on the phone that could be lost or stolen and therefore not secure? but could be lost or stolen and therefore not secure? but did you delete them? _ therefore not secure? but did you delete them? yes. _ and new brexit border checks come into force today. we'll talk live to one business that fears extra costs to them, and to consumers. hello, i m matthew amroliwala, welcome to verified live, 3 hours of breaking stories, and checking out the truth behind them.