the question, could ask ourselves the question, could this happen in ourfamily? because at the moment we don't know what went wrong. but at the moment we don't know what went wrong-— went wrong. but not everyone is in favour of courts _ went wrong. but not everyone is in favour of courts identifying - went wrong. but not everyone is in favour of courts identifying young i favour of courts identifying young offenders. the favour of courts identifying young offenders. ., favour of courts identifying young offenders. . ., , ., ., offenders. the naming and shaming of them as a barrier _ offenders. the naming and shaming of them as a barrier to _ offenders. the naming and shaming of them as a barrier to rehabilitation. - them as a barrier to rehabilitation. we know_ them as a barrier to rehabilitation. we know that it creates troubles for their safety in prison, but also upon — their safety in prison, but also upon release because these are children— upon release because these are children at the end of the day and they need — children at the end of the day and they need to be able to be given space _ they need to be able to be given space to — they need to be able to be given space to grow and to move beyond their crime — space to grow and to move beyond their crime. the space to grow and to move beyond their crime-— their crime. the trial heard jenkinson _ their crime. the trial heard jenkinson and _ their crime. the trial heard jenkinson and ratcliffe - their crime. the trial heard l jenkinson and ratcliffe were their crime. the trial heard - jenkinson and ratcliffe were deeply jenkinson and ratcliffe were deeply and disturbingly interested in torture videos.— and disturbingly interested in torture videos. they had a real thirst for death _ torture videos. they had a real thirst for death and _ torture videos. they had a real thirst for death and murder. i torture videos. they had a real i thirst for death and murder. the torture videos. they had a real - thirst for death and murder. the two of them are quite depraved in terms of them are quite depraved in terms of them are quite depraved in terms of the conversations they were having. it was brianna accessibility that led to her being a victim on that led to her being a victim on that day. we believe that there were

others if it had not been brianna. when mrjustice yet decided to lift —— mrsjustice yet decided to lift the ban on releasing their names. she said i consider that there is a strong public interest in full and unrestricted reporting of the case. the decision to release their names will have implications for them and for theirfamilies for the rest will have implications for them and for their families for the rest of their lives. i for their families for the rest of their lives-_ their lives. i don't feel that either of — their lives. i don't feel that either of them, _ their lives. i don't feel that either of them, either - their lives. i don't feel that i either of them, either scarlett their lives. i don't feel that - either of them, either scarlett or eddie, are the type of people that would get on very well in prison and i suppose that that is not a worry for their parents, but they have got to continue knowing what their children have done.— to continue knowing what their children have done. brianna's family see the end — children have done. brianna's family see the end of _ children have done. brianna's family see the end of the _ children have done. brianna's family

see the end of the legal _ children have done. brianna's family see the end of the legal fight - children have done. brianna's family see the end of the legal fight as - children have done. brianna's family see the end of the legal fight as a i see the end of the legal fight as a relief. justice for brianna, who lived a life like her to talk to dews, loud and proud of who she was. let's speak tojessica, a senior associate at mcallister family law. it is really good to get your bbc news. we are breaking the news that the two teenagers have been named, those restrictions by the court have been lifted. they were in place because of the age of the two killers. what is your reaction to the fact that we can now name these two youngsters? the the fact that we can now name these two youngsters?— the fact that we can now name these two youngsters? the naming of these two youngsters? the naming of these two ouna two youngsters? the naming of these two young people _ two youngsters? the naming of these two young people is _ two youngsters? the naming of these two young people is obviously - two youngsters? the naming of these two young people is obviously very i two young people is obviously very unusual in our criminaljustice

unusual in our criminal justice system unusual in our criminaljustice system in the uk. it happens only in exceptional circumstances and the judge in this case has obviously had to grapple difficultly with doing a balancing act in terms of reflecting the barbarity of the crime that has taken place and the urgent public interest to have that information against the desirability of avoiding any additional harm to the convicted children. do any additional harm to the convicted children. ,, any additional harm to the convicted children. , ., ,, any additional harm to the convicted children. ,, ,, , children. do you think it is the riaht children. do you think it is the right decision? _ children. do you think it is the right decision? it _ children. do you think it is the right decision? it is _ children. do you think it is the right decision? it is not - children. do you think it is the i right decision? it is not unusual. we have over — right decision? it is not unusual. we have over time _ right decision? it is not unusual. we have over time seen - right decision? it is not unusual. we have over time seen cases i right decision? it is not unusual. i we have over time seen cases like this appear and obviously we are all aware of the issues in terms of robert thompson and jon venables. this reporting allows the public to

have full understanding and it allows the public to have transparency and understanding into the criminaljustice system in the uk. it does restore faith and it probably encourages some real debates about actually social issues that are in existence and hopefully how these kind of cases can be avoided. ., , , ., ,, ., ., avoided. you speak there are about these youngsters. _ avoided. you speak there are about these youngsters. you _ avoided. you speak there are about these youngsters. you deal- avoided. you speak there are about these youngsters. you deal with i avoided. you speak there are about these youngsters. you deal with a i these youngsters. you deal with a lot of families. have you ever had to deal with the case for your defendants have been named? ihla. to deal with the case for your defendants have been named? no. it is very unusual _ defendants have been named? no. it is very unusual and _ defendants have been named? no. it is very unusual and very _ defendants have been named? in it is very unusual and very exceptional in the uk, but it is a testament to the severity of the case and what has happened in this situation. it has happened in this situation. if you were dealing with this case and

looking at the severity, we have cctv coming into us, the police have released letters, list of targets, list of serial killers that these two were fans of so to speak, do you think it meets that mark?— think it meets that mark? well, the 'udue has think it meets that mark? well, the judge has obviously _ think it meets that mark? well, the judge has obviously decided - think it meets that mark? well, the judge has obviously decided that. think it meets that mark? well, the judge has obviously decided that it. judge has obviously decided that it meets the mark and that is the most important thing. i've very difficult balancing act has obviously been undertaken here, but it only works in the public interest in the purposes of transparency and in the hope that we can learn from these mistakes and try and understand how this has occurred in the first place. this has occurred in the first lace. ~ ., ., this has occurred in the first lace, . ., ., ,., this has occurred in the first lace, . ., ., y., “ this has occurred in the first lace. ~ ., ., ,, ,, ., place. what do you think the naming of these two — place. what do you think the naming of these two youngsters, _ place. what do you think the naming of these two youngsters, what - place. what do you think the naming of these two youngsters, what kind i of these two youngsters, what kind of these two youngsters, what kind of impact will that have on them? we heard those representing jenkinson and ratcliffe was then this will be

bad for their mental health. what are your thoughts? i bad for their mental health. what are your thoughts?— bad for their mental health. what are your thoughts? i imagine it may well be. there _ are your thoughts? i imagine it may well be. there will _ are your thoughts? i imagine it may well be. there will be _ are your thoughts? i imagine it may well be. there will be some - well be. there will be some difficulties that will come with this and that will mark these two children for the rest of their lives, but that needs to be balanced against the crime that has been committed. irate against the crime that has been committed-— against the crime that has been committed. ~ ~ , ., ,, ., ., committed. we keep talking about how man --eole committed. we keep talking about how many people have _ committed. we keep talking about how many people have been _ committed. we keep talking about how many people have been interested - committed. we keep talking about how many people have been interested in l many people have been interested in this case and a lot of the reason that this information has been released is because of huge public interest. why do you think the public attention was captured so much by the specific case? generally, i imagine it is to do with the ages of the victim. the two that had been involved in this crime and the nature of it. very barbaric, very serious, and it should make us

question how we get to this point where two young children are committing such a violent crime and it has ended up with a young person losing their life.— losing their life. these are two ounu losing their life. these are two young children _ losing their life. these are two young children committing - losing their life. these are two young children committing thej young children committing the crimes, it is not theirfamilies that have been found guilty, but neither names had been released these families will be known to the wider public, notjust the local community. i believe lots of people already knew who they were to a certain extent. what happens to them now? what will the conversations be with lawyers and families of the killers? it with lawyers and families of the killers? , ., , , ., ., with lawyers and families of the killers? ., _ ., killers? it is obviously going to be a very difficult _ killers? it is obviously going to be a very difficult time _ killers? it is obviously going to be a very difficult time for— killers? it is obviously going to be a very difficult time for all- killers? it is obviously going to be a very difficult time for all of- killers? it is obviously going to be a very difficult time for all of the i a very difficult time for all of the families involved with this. i imagine it is going to be a long, difficultjourney for imagine it is going to be a long, difficult journey for them, imagine it is going to be a long, difficultjourney for them, but it does open the door to a lot of

questions as to how we have failed all of the children in this case. but we keep hearing the word stable family backgrounds, these two children came from a stable family background and there you just mention the longevity of this. for example, we look back at other cases where jon venables example, we look back at other cases wherejon venables and robert thompson were 11 when they were convicted of abducting, torturing, murdering james belcher in merseyside. this will bring back thoughts of that case to many people here watching, listening, reading about this, but then they were given brand—new identities. could that happen for these two further down the line? it happen for these two further down the line? . , happen for these two further down the line? ., , ., happen for these two further down the line? , ., , ., , , the line? it may well do. obviously that then sparks _ the line? it may well do. obviously that then sparks another _ the line? it may well do. obviously that then sparks another public - that then sparks another public

debate about the costs of all of those procedures having to be implemented. but we don't know what the future holds. it will be an incredibly long and difficult journey for all of the families that have been involved in this horrendous case. i have been involved in this horrendous case.- have been involved in this horrendous case. have been involved in this horrendouscase. ,, ., ., ., horrendous case. i know you are not the 'udue horrendous case. i know you are not the judge in — horrendous case. i know you are not the judge in this _ horrendous case. i know you are not the judge in this case, _ horrendous case. i know you are not the judge in this case, you _ horrendous case. i know you are not the judge in this case, you will- horrendous case. i know you are not the judge in this case, you will not l the judge in this case, you will not make a final decision but if you were sat in court arguing for a specific sentence, what sort of thing would you be arguing for? taking into account the age of the killers and also the attack and the brutality of the attack, what kind of sentence would you be looking at? the judge will have to work within guidelines. obviously there is a lot of mitigation that can potentially be fit forward, but this is a

serious and barbaric incident and i don't think that will leave the mind of thejudge, the nature of don't think that will leave the mind of the judge, the nature of the attack and what has happened will have a heavy influence on the sentence that is given. irate have a heavy influence on the sentence that is given. we will broadcast _ sentence that is given. we will broadcast the _ sentence that is given. we will broadcast the sentence - sentence that is given. we will broadcast the sentence and i sentence that is given. we will| broadcast the sentence and live sentence that is given. we will. broadcast the sentence and live on bbc news and we tend to publish and broadcast more and more sentencing remarks from judges and courts across the country now. how do you think that is having an effect not only on the criminaljustice system but how the public perceive the criminaljustice but how the public perceive the criminal justice system? but how the public perceive the criminaljustice system? the reporting — criminaljustice system? the reporting on _ criminaljustice system? the reporting on the _ criminaljustice system? tue: reporting on the sentencing remarks of the judge is again another way of implementing transparency and it allows the public to have greater understanding about the balancing act that is undertaken when sentences were handed down. it can

be useful and i say it allows the public to have more understanding of the procedures, how our criminal justice system works and the role of the courts and the judges in the processes that need to be undertaken.— processes that need to be undertaken. ,, ., , ., undertaken. jessica, really good to net our undertaken. jessica, really good to get your thoughts, _ undertaken. jessica, really good to get your thoughts, thank _ get your thoughts, thank you for joining us here on bbc news. we are rolling live with this story, getting the latest breaking news coming out of manchester crown court. let's head back to your correspondence, roman bridge, he is outside the court for us. proceeding is still going on inside. bring us up—to—date with the very latest. you up-to-date with the very latest. you were 'ust up—to—date with the very latest. tm. were just discussing their potential sentences for the two murderers and the court is being addressed at the

moment by the kc for the prosecution who is outlining the guidelines for such a crime. she said that the starting point for a such a crime. she said that the starting point fora minimum such a crime. she said that the starting point for a minimum term of dependence of 15 or 16 years old is 20 years, depending how the crime is classified. thejudge 20 years, depending how the crime is classified. the judge said she would pass a minimum term when she passes sentence and would be lower than it would have been if the two had been aduu would have been if the two had been adult when they committed the crime. let's not forget they were 15 when they murdered brianna ghey. she said that sentencing of the case was not straightforward. there kc went on to raise issues that she thought were pertinent to the length of sentence to two children should be given. she said there was a hostility relating to brianna ghey�*s transgender identity and trans public messages were sent between the two before the murder of brianna ghey. the prosecution say it is possible that

there is evidence capable to show that this murder was carried out in part because of her transgender status. the police didn't heat treated as a hate crime but the prosecution to think that should be taken in as a factor because they believed there was a transfermarkt element to what went on. thejudge herself said there was evidence of trans public comments and sadism, the question is whether this is enough to elevate it to the highest category of sentence. the prosecution pointed to the level of planning that it monitor the crime and the vulnerability of brianna, that she was 16 and had a high level of anxiety and that should be seen as an aggravating factor when it comes to the level of sentence, and also to share for loss —— ferocity of the attack on brianna. it was described as a ferocious and fierce attack. she was stabbed 28 times. a number of them stabbings used

considerable force, which is also being seen as an aggravating factor in this case. the kc went on to say that they intended to kill brianna, so the prosecution feel there are factors that are aggravating this case and they should push for a higher sentence for the two killers were just 15 at the time. also we have been hearing from the families themselves, there have been some impact statements that have been read out. some really heartfelt words from brianna's mother, as you would of course expect. just talk us through what has been said there. yeah, we have had statements from several of brianna ghey�*s family and it has been absolutely devastating for all of them. the judge said you could feel the emotion in the court when some of these statements were read out. alicia ghey, brianna

ghey�*s sister said that i now feel anxious and struggled to trust new people that i meet because it was brianna's friend who she trusted who ended her life. no one can ever make me feel better, the only thing that would is hearing her voice and laughter and i must carry that pain the rest of my life. wesley powell, brianna ghey�*s stepdad, said brianna's death wasn't peaceful, it was brutal and savage. she was laid face down in the dirt, terrified and alone. it breaks my heart and fills me with sorrow. brianna had a massive online following but in reality she was lonely and vulnerable, eddie and scarlett knew this and they prayed on her. this has clearly had a massive impact, understandably, on brianna's family, friends, the community and just about everyone whose lives were touched by this case. fight! about everyone whose lives were touched by this case.— about everyone whose lives were touched by this case. and 'ust for eo - le touched by this case. and 'ust for people joining * touched by this case. and 'ust for people joining us * touched by this case. and 'ust for people joining us now, h touched by this case. and just for people joining us now, roman, i touched by this case. and just for i people joining us now, roman, can peoplejoining us now, roman, can you just give us a bit of background to this case. —— rowan. this