author. it's a retired judge and author. it's a balance, isn't it, between the right for open justice of all hearings and at the same time the necessity for courts to protect vulnerable people. vulnerable people can be vulnerable for all sorts of reasons, one of which is age. 15 is young, it's not 12 evidently, but it still presume young and the law protects children as a presumption, whether they be witnesses or defendants or suspects or whatever it might be, and it goes to issuing photographs. it all goes back as well to the protection that has been given to children from legislation from 1939. this is one of the areas of broad discretion of

thejudge. this is a high court judge, particularly experienced and it is most likely, almost certain, that he has made the right choice. it then becomes a question of the balance of open justice and reporting properly by the media. if you are residing over this case, what would your decision be? i if you are residing over this case, what would your decision be? i would have thought — what would your decision be? i would have thought having _ what would your decision be? i would have thought having heard _ what would your decision be? i would have thought having heard it's - what would your decision be? i would have thought having heard it's i - have thought having heard it's i would have done the same thing. you sort of get a gut feeling for these things and it comes with a lot of experience and you just know which side you're going to come down on. you start off with the interest of the children and their anonymity, at the children and their anonymity, at the same time he will go through a

mental process, an intellectual process to determine where you should end up, considering the right to openjustice, reported should end up, considering the right to open justice, reported justice, the seriousness of the case. judges aren't robots, there will be people who disagree quite intently with their position that the judge came true, but it is a broad discretion and you will not start tinkering from the court of appeal with the discretion to do that. in cases very often where there are content orders made, then the media will be heard. that will be one of the interests the family of those involved in the case. it will all be out in the open, orwould case. it will all be out in the open, or would have been out in the open, or would have been out in the open by the age of 18 anyway, because we are not dealing with the very youngest of children. it is

difficult to get it right. i very youngest of children. it is difficult to get it right.- difficult to get it right. i keep heafina difficult to get it right. i keep hearing about _ difficult to get it right. i keep hearing about this _ difficult to get it right. i keep hearing about this balancing | difficult to get it right. i keep i hearing about this balancing act when it comes to naming killers, especially younger killers and, like you say, they are due to turn 18 in not much time, we are looking our run 12—18 months. what else would the judge had to take run 12—18 months. what else would thejudge had to take into consideration? it's not only the family of the victim, but also the families of those killers. we heard that they themselves have been receiving death threats.- that they themselves have been receiving death threats. yeah, but one has also _ receiving death threats. yeah, but one has also heard _ receiving death threats. yeah, but one has also heard that _ receiving death threats. yeah, but one has also heard that there - receiving death threats. yeah, but one has also heard that there has| one has also heard that there has been a fair amount of inadvertent, if you want to call it that,

publicity in the sense that the defendants are known around the area, are seen around the area and thatis area, are seen around the area and that is inevitable, as well. for instance, in a different point is, if he were trying to move a case because it is too notorious in the locale, you want to change its location, very often a judge will be told there is no place that this case is not heard of, so you'vejust got two for less, tinker with all of theseissues got two for less, tinker with all of these issues and come to what you see as the decision that you are comfortable with and i'm sure this judge is comfortable with the decision that he has made. itjust shows you, judges aren't robots, there are still human beings. i there are still human beings. i don't think you are robots, looking at you nigel! i have a few more

questions, nigel. some youngsters do to get named in court like this, they do become quite notorious after being named. let me refer you to one of the most famous attempt —— examples, the killers ofjames bolger. many people will remember this case back in 1993. how do you think this notoriety can affect the pair? it think this notoriety can affect the air? , ., ., , ., , pair? it is the notoriety that they are a art pair? it is the notoriety that they are a part of. _ pair? it is the notoriety that they are a part of. it _ pair? it is the notoriety that they are a part of, it is— pair? it is the notoriety that they are a part of, it is not _ pair? it is the notoriety that they are a part of, it is not the - pair? it is the notoriety that they are a part of, it is not the fact i are a part of, it is not the fact that they have been name that makes the case notorious. in that case was the case notorious. in that case was the circumstances of the rather savage killing of the child, delivering and killing of the child. and just how shocking that was to people. that is the notoriety. it is not the fact that the people are named. currently the notoriety is

the fact that the court want to send a message. all of criminal cases invariably have a message to be sent to the wider public and for that to be drawn as widely as possible, meet as clearly as possible, cutie needs an open advertisement, if you like, of the people involved in the case. so it is not the fact that they were named that makes them notorious, it is the facts of the case.— is the facts of the case. really interesting- — is the facts of the case. really interesting. let's _ is the facts of the case. really interesting. let's have - is the facts of the case. really interesting. let's have a - is the facts of the case. really interesting. let's have a lookl is the facts of the case. really l interesting. let's have a look at the case of will cornick, he stabbed his teacher anne mcguire. she was 61, she taught at corpus christi catholic college in leeds. this was in 2014. i remember covering this. he wasjust 15 and in 2014. i remember covering this. he was just 15 and the judge went along the naming of will cornick said this was a clear deterrent effect. you think rulings like this

to create that deterrent effect? it is impossible to know. however sophisticated a criminologist might be, it becomes really difficult to start determining. it becomes the fact that a particular judge start determining. it becomes the fact that a particularjudge sees it as having a deterrent effect. you mentioned a couple of cases ago of a teacher that was murdered. the message that has got to be sent is kids at school are not there to make the lives of their teachers intolerable and impossible, and school teachers must be protected. society must be protected. what does the interest ofjustice and open justice mean? it includes that, that those who need protection in society are protected, so again that is one

of the issues. all of these cases that you name will all be individual and they will all have, but yes what about? so, but yeah, what about will be something that is said to the judge in court when trying to persuade him in one way or the other, but then you have advocates, representatives of the interested parties on the question whether they should be named. i remember when, and i'm not sure to what extent it is changed, the main statutes for witnesses was a 1939 act and that was protecting really the presumption of anonymity. it goes far wider, as to when certain individuals, particularly in the public arena, are arrested by the police or if they have had their

houses swooped on by police and they have been named and it is argued that their life is ruined. these are all parts of the same points. at the one we are discussing is one in which the final say and it issues that it which the final say and it issues thatitis which the final say and it issues that it is still a good system that brings judges and to determine issues that i suppose anybody could determine, but it is a person who has had substantial experience over the years that is bringing to bear. that was the retired judge and author nigel lipman casey, speaking to me earlier on. you are watching bbc news. let's get more noise on this story that we have been rolling on, that the names of the killers of

brianna ghey have been released, scarlettjenkinson and eddie ratcliffe, both 15 at the time of her murder, have been released by thejudge, her murder, have been released by the judge, justice her murder, have been released by thejudge, justice yip. her murder, have been released by the judge, justice yip. we are getting lots of pictures, cctv footage, two shots from the police that they have released to us. these are the arrest photographs of the pair, scarlettjenkinson and eddie ratcliffe. we are talking on bbc news about naming these two youngsters. it doesn't happen very often, let's say. let's talk more on this and cross like barrister and co—director of the youth justice legal centre. good to have you here on bbc news. what are your thoughts

to the naming of these youngsters? do you think it was the right decision by thejudge? h0. do you think it was the right decision by the judge? decision by the 'udge? no, it is contrary to — decision by the 'udge? no, it is contrary to our — decision by thejudge? no, it is contrary to our obligations - decision by thejudge? no, it is contrary to our obligations as i contrary to our obligations as signatories to the un convention on the rights of the child, which is very clear and states that children's privacy should be respected at all stages of the process and it is interesting because the uk was just examined in 2023 and in their concluding observations the un committee said it was concerned about the draconian and punitive nature of the child justice system in the uk. some say that naming _ justice system in the uk. some say that naming these _ justice system in the uk. some say that naming these youngsters, - justice system in the uk. some say i that naming these youngsters, taking in the brutality of this attack and the calculated planning behind it, naming the two will help public faith in the criminaljustice

system. do you not agree with that? i think that is kind of a ridiculous point because the public faith is served supposedly by the convictions. they know that someone convicted and act that they know that they have been convicted. you were talking to your last speaker about venables and thompson and there naming and what happened with them as they were named by the criminal court and subsequently they a lifelong injunction through the civil court so that they can't ever be identified for the very same reason you were saying earlier about the families who might face death threats. i don't know whether these young people have siblings, though siblings, what will happen to those children and the knock—on consequences to them just by being related? d0 consequences to them 'ust by being related? ,, consequences to them 'ust by being related? , ., ~ consequences to them 'ust by being related? i. ~ ., related? do you think more weight should be put _ related? do you think more weight should be put on _ related? do you think more weight

should be put on the _ related? do you think more weight should be put on the families - related? do you think more weight should be put on the families of i should be put on the families of those affected rather than naming them to try and more people were saying was to help with this public faith in this public system? you look at the likes of the metropolitan police, there has been a lot surrounding the police in london and how faith has been diminished there do you think that thejustice diminished there do you think that the justice system should be looking at this in a different light? it is at this in a different light? it is really clear _ at this in a different light? it is really clear to _ at this in a different light? it is really clear to me _ at this in a different light? it is really clear to me that - at this in a different light? it 3 really clear to me that if the public one faith they will get it from the conviction. if we are using to 15—year—old children to restore public faith in the metropolitan police then i think that is a pretty damning indictment on society. all of this is tragic, whichever way you look at it it is a tragedy. you can

likely say that we would make this other decision for faith in the criminaljustice other decision for faith in the criminal justice system, other decision for faith in the criminaljustice system, then i think we are looking at things the wrong way round.— wrong way round. when these youngsters — wrong way round. when these youngsters are _ wrong way round. when these youngsters are named - wrong way round. when these youngsters are named there l wrong way round. when these| youngsters are named there is wrong way round. when these l youngsters are named there is a sense of notoriety that comes with this. jon venables, robert thomson, will cornick, how do you think that affects the youngsters as they are now entering the criminaljustice system, they are going to prison, they will spend much of their life there, but how do you think that will affect them, their mental health and their time behind bars? i health and theirtime behind bars? 1 think that is one of my concerns health and theirtime behind bars? i think that is one of my concerns and we have done a lot of cases and i don't know these particular children, but we as a society are much more conscious about children?

mental health nowadays and what that means. we also have really strong child protection laws and we protect children up to the age of 18. we have a recognition of times of turbulence and all of these lead to, when we sentence children, that there is a potential life ahead of them that will be entirely different from who they are now. if we say that there are 15 when this happens, in 35 years' time, which is a lot of people's lifetimes, they will only be 50—year—old people and there is no chance of rehabilitation in any life at all. in general, if you can always be identified by the entry not —— intranets of something horrific dead as a child. just -ia in:

horrific dead as a child. just playing devil's _ horrific dead as a child. just playing devil's advocates, one of the aspects that the judge would have taken account is in a short amount of time they would have turned 18, they would have been named anyway, so the protection would have only lasted for so long. do you think the rehabilitation could have been so great then that it should have been held back? it is it should have been held back? it is a sliuht it should have been held back? it 3 a slight misunderstanding of the law, i'm afraid, because she can then apply for a civil injunction if there is a vulnerability and protection. to be honest, the law itself that says they can be named today team i think breaches are international law obligations and the government debated this a lot, i think it was six or seven years ago, but victims and witnesses, so children in other parts of the system get lifelong protection, yet these are all children and we have grown to recognise that childhood is

a different stage of life, that we all move on from. do a different stage of life, that we all move on from.— a different stage of life, that we all move on from. do you think the law should — all move on from. do you think the law should change? _ all move on from. do you think the law should change? yeah, - all move on from. do you think the law should change? yeah, yeah. it| all move on from. do you think the l law should change? yeah, yeah. it is 'ust a law should change? yeah, yeah. it is just a particular _ law should change? yeah, yeah. it is just a particular wording, _ law should change? yeah, yeah. it is just a particular wording, there - just a particular wording, there should be the option of lifelong anonymity. should be the option of lifelong anonymity-— should be the option of lifelong anon mi .~ , ., ., anonymity. when it comes to later in life for the likes _ anonymity. when it comes to later in life for the likes of _ anonymity. when it comes to later in life for the likes of other _ life for the likes of other youngsters, john venables i will repeat, robert thompson they were then given new identities, given lifelong anonymity. at the end of all of this... lifelong anonymity. at the end of all of this. . .— all of this. .. that is the point, they were _ all of this. .. that is the point, they were named _ all of this. .. that is the point, they were named by - all of this. .. that is the point, they were named by the - all of this. .. that is the point, i they were named by the criminal courts and then someone had to go to the civil courts to get a lifelong analyst —— anonymity protection for them so we could have saved all the problems we hadn'tjust named them in the first place. you problems we hadn't 'ust named them in the first place.— in the first place. you talk about the un charter— in the first place. you talk about the un charter protecting - in the first place. you talk about the un charter protecting the i in the first place. you talk about. the un charter protecting the rights

of children and the laws in this country, i don't know how many cases you have worked on and whether they were abroad, but how does that compare to other countries? i were abroad, but how does that compare to other countries? i have worked in other _ compare to other countries? i have worked in other countries - compare to other countries? i have worked in other countries and - compare to other countries? i have worked in other countries and i - compare to other countries? i have worked in other countries and i am | compare to other countries? i have l worked in other countries and i am a lawyer in america, which is the only country in the world that haven't signed up to the game convention, but we have and we are bound by it. ourjustice but we have and we are bound by it. our justice system but we have and we are bound by it. ourjustice system is more punitive, the way we treat children is more punitive than a lot of other countries because what we have decided to do is adopt and mirror and adult criminaljustice system for children, so we see this is what the adult criminaljustice system does and we will narrate and make some adaptations. scotland, for example has a welfare basis for children who offend, so even in the uk we see a different model. the us has a punitive model, but for

example with the us has a death penalty they have taken away the death penalty for children. i assume that there is a progression to saying that children are children. really good to get your thoughts. a short while ago i spoke to a family law expert. short while ago i spoke to a family law exoert-— short while ago i spoke to a family lawexert. ., ., , law expert. scott halliday. from my oint of law expert. scott halliday. from my point of view _ law expert. scott halliday. from my point of view l _ law expert. scott halliday. from my point of view i am _ law expert. scott halliday. from my point of view i am a _ law expert. scott halliday. from my point of view i am a family - law expert. scott halliday. from my point of view i am a family law - point of view i am a family law expert with regards to children law and in this circumstance the judge, justice yip, will be thinking about from the evidence that she has heard the factors that will support potentially her decision on extending the sentence or indeed not, factors such as the

motivations, the premeditation and whatnot, and in due course once you have the sentencing remarks then we will be able to understand to what extent she has associated significance to those particular aggravating factors or indeed mitigating factors and converse. from what we have heard today it seems the aggravating factors, say the trans phobic nature of some of the trans phobic nature of some of the associations.— the associations. also, of course, the associations. also, of course, the big news _ the associations. also, of course, the big news that _ the associations. also, of course, the big news that these _ the associations. also, of course, the big news that these two - the associations. also, of course, the big news that these two have| the big news that these two have been named, those reporting restrictions lifted by the judge. what are your thoughts? is it a good idea to name child killers? it is what are your thoughts? is it a good idea to name child killers?— idea to name child killers? it is a very difficult _ idea to name child killers? it is a very difficult decision _ idea to name child killers? it is a very difficult decision that - idea to name child killers? it is a very difficult decision that only i idea to name child killers? it is a very difficult decision that only a | very difficult decision that only a certain small number ofjudges certain small number of judges hearing certain small number ofjudges hearing these cases have to deal with, but thejudge is

hearing these cases have to deal with, but the judge is always going to have to weigh very heavily in their minds the importance of public confidence in the system. inevitably, there is a way of looking at this on both sides of the coin, i suppose, looking at this on both sides of the coin, isuppose, but looking at this on both sides of the coin, i suppose, but nevertheless thejudge coin, i suppose, but nevertheless the judge was not decision has to be one at the conclusion of this long—running proceedings, thejudge long—running proceedings, the judge has long—running proceedings, thejudge has to be satisfied that the public have confidence in the system and, given the nature of the crimes that have been committed here, it is hard to imagine a more heinous crime in such circumstances where the balancing act wouldn't tip in favour of lifting anonymity, as it were. it is hard to think of a circumstance that would be more severe than what we have been thinking about in this case. �* .. we have been thinking about in this case. ~ ., .,, case. also, what the 'udge was thinkin: case. also, what the 'udge was thinking was the _ case. also, what the 'udge was thinking was the age _ case. also, what the judge was thinking was the age of - case. also, what the judge was thinking was the age of the - case. also, what the judge was. thinking was the age of the pair. they are due to turn 18 is in anyway

so the name should be released. i know you are not a judge, but would you have made the same decision? i you have made the same decision? 1 think it goes back to what ijust said, i don't really think that the judge can do more than weigh up the competing points and come to the conclusion that she clearly has. there is precedent, if you like, in different cases where there have been murders committed by children and judges in different but similarly heinous crimes have come to similar conclusions, so one can understand in this very difficult situation, bearing in mind the extremities of the facts, one can understand why the judge may, extremities of the facts, one can understand why thejudge may, though having to weigh up significantly and taking time to do that, one can

think how this decision was reached in these exceptional circumstances. what is the effect that naming them will have, notjust on both jenkinson and ratcliffe, but on theirfamilies? you work jenkinson and ratcliffe, but on their families? you work with families who go into the criminal justice system. this is a huge spotlight to be shown on two families that live in a leafy part of the country. it families that live in a leafy part of the country.— families that live in a leafy part of the country. it is and you can disregard _ of the country. it is and you can disregard the _ of the country. it is and you can disregard the significance - of the country. it is and you can disregard the significance of. of the country. it is and you can l disregard the significance of that, but it needs to be weighed up against the public because my confidence in the system and to be ultimately a decision that the judge makes that she feels having a way that those competing interests, ultimately the balance falls in the favour of the public interest in knowing and understanding the circumstances to the fullest extent. by circumstances to the fullest extent. by comparison, in the family courts

it is exceptionally rare for parties, parents particularly, to be named when they are dealing with issues regarding their children. this is clearly a very different set of circumstances. you can imagine a set of circumstances where parents dealing with arrangements for a child would not want their school friends to be able to google and know that their parents were in court about such things. that isn't really a cross—reference that particularly helps us here because the circumstances are so severe and there is a need, i suppose, when all there is a need, i suppose, when all the set is done for the confidence of the public in the system to win the day, as it were. yes, there are competing points of course and yes this will have ramifications for

many, but the system works on the basis in such exceptional circumstances where there is at the end of the trial a sense that justice has been done and it must be weighing heavily i suppose in the minds of thejudge weighing heavily i suppose in the minds of the judge when she was coming to this conclusion as to what to do about the ramifications. alas, that decision has to be made. finally, just before we go. naming the two attackers, do you think that will help restore faith in the criminaljustice will help restore faith in the criminal justice system for those that may not have x? it is criminaljustice system for those that may not have x?— criminaljustice system for those that may not have x? it is as good as can be done — that may not have x? it is as good as can be done in _ that may not have x? it is as good as can be done in the _ that may not have x? it is as good as can be done in the set - that may not have x? it is as good as can be done in the set of - as can be done in the set of circumstances that we have. just a reminder of the story, the teenage murders of 16—year—olds brianna ghey has been identified as scarlettjenkinson and eddie

ratcliffe. they stabbed her to death in february last year. they're identified this afternoon after the judge a legal order that prevented them from being identified. that is it from me. hi there. well, the weather this weekend isn't looking too bad. not an awful lot of sunshine in the forecast. in fact, it is going to be mostly cloudy and blustery, but relatively mild. and there's some rain on the way, too, but particularly for northwestern scotland later in the weekend. now, if we look at the satellite picture, it's all coming in from the south—west, isn't it? this is the jet stream here. hence it's so mild and with a bit of sunshine, we may well have hit the mid—teens, maybe 15, 16 degrees there in eastern parts of scotland. now through the night, an incursion of slightly less mild or maybe colder air, you could call it, i suppose, across scotland, a touch

of frost, maybe possible in the highlands, but i think seven in edinburgh to the south it's still very mild, about 11 degrees. here's saturday itself. again, crucially, that's a big gradient in the pressure, these isobars. so these strong west, southwesterly winds a little bit cooler again in scotland. but with that more brightness, with some showers, particularly around western coasts to the south, we have a weather front. this is where the milder air is. some rain at times moving through wales into the midlands. not all the time, so intermittent, i think, outbreaks of rain. how about the six nations in cardiff? often cloudy, some rain, about 11 degrees. and it will be blustery. so not ideal but sort of usable weather, i guess, unless it really turns heavy that rain. here's sunday. you can see a lot of damp weather here in the northwest of the country.

this weather front will be responsible for bringing that large amount of rain to western and northwestern scotland. so again, 50 millimetres possible, certainly 100 to 150 millimetres here south of that. into monday again that southwesterly wind, mild winds to the east of the pennines. there'll be some breaks in the cloud, maybe across east anglia too. and whether you're in glasgow or in the south in plymouth, it'll be about 12 degrees. how about well into next week? well, there are hints that things could be turning a bit colder from around about wednesday onwards. still a little uncertain about that, but it probably won't be as mild as it has been so far. bye— bye.

today at 1:00pm, a court allows the teenage murderers of 16—year—old brianna ghey to be identified. they are eddie ratcliffe and scarlettjenkinson. brianna was repeatedly stabbed in broad daylight by the two killers in february last year. here at manchester crown court, we have heard dramatic new details of what scarlettjenkinson said happened that day. also today, a national manhunt continues for abdul ezedi — the suspect in a chemical attack in south london. they can kill us, murder, but we stand and we go on. trying to keep life normal for the children still living on the frontline. we have a special report from ukraine.

and france and ireland renew their rivalry in the first game of this year's six nations. and coming up on bbc news: debutant shoiab bashir picks up two wickets for england, but india's opener yashasvi jaiswal, is the star of the show on day one of the second test. in a highly unusual move, a judge in manchester has lifted the anonymity given to children with criminal convictions and allowed the naming of the killers of 16—year—old brianna ghey, who was murdered in 2023. eddie ratcliffe and scarlett jenkinson, both 16, are in court to be sentenced for the murder of brianna, who was transgender. she was stabbed 28 times in broad daylight in a park in cheshire in february last year.

mrsjustice yip previously said that there was "a strong public