breanne ghey was just 16, killed by two other scarlettjenkinson had plotted the murder with eddie ratcliffe on messaging apps and watched videos of torture and violence on the dark web. brianna's mum now wants change. i'd like to see mobile phone companies take more responsibility. it's so difficult for parents now to safeguard their children. just as the world's biggest tech bosses are confronted by bereaved parents... would you like now to apologise to the victims who have been harmed by your product? show them the pictures. would you like to apologise for what you've done to these good people? ..and senators, too.

| i know you don't mean it to be so, but you have blood on your hands. so we have one big question this morning — what else can we do to protect kids online? how will the education secretary, gillian keegan, and so the article? labour's peter kyle joins us from washington, dc, where he is meeting tech bosses. on the latest on american and uk strikes in yemen from jeremy bowen injerusalem. morning. with me at the desk, andrea thompson, editor in chief of marie claire. former facebook executive, richard allan, a lib dem now in the house of lords. and justine greening, who was, not so long ago,

the tory education secretary too. before we do anything else, let's see what's making the news this morning. the sunday express and the sunday people splash with a committe of mps verdict that the military�*s not properly equipped to fight a war. the sunday telegraph has that — and england beating italy in the six nations. sadly no picture of scotland's fine defeat of wales. and the observer claims labour�*s going for a safety first manifesto, but features the first nationalist first minister of northern ireland — a historic day there yesterday. michelle o'neil spoke to the bbc earlier and there is plenty on that important story on the bbc website. but the bbc is leading this morning on the overnight airstrikes by american and uk forces. jeremy bowen, our international editor, is injerusalem for us and i spoke to him a short while ago. well, it's another round of strikes against the houthis in yemen,

who've been attacking the shipping in the red sea. i think it's sending once again a message that britain, america and their allies do not want them to do that. however, i've had quite a lot to do with the houthis over the years, and i'm pretty certain they will not be deterred by this, that they will be trying to answer it with another attack. but coming on top, as well, of the american strikes against those pro—iranian targets in syria and iraq, it has led to another wave of concern that the war... well, it has spread. the issue now is the degree to which this regional war becomes even hotter and more dangerous, and whether that can be controlled. and you hear leaders from lots of different countries say repeatedly, we don't want a big, major conflict. we don't want to escalate this.

we try to keep this under control. but is anybody actually in control? there are so many different actors. no, i don't think anybody is in control of the rate at which this happens. and don't forget, war is messy. things happen. perhaps a raid is carefully calibrated, but then it might lead to a response, or it might hit the wrong target, or it might kill more people than expected and it ratchets up again. i think — and i've this is echoed by quite a few western officials i've spoken to — a lot of it goes back to the war in gaza. and if a ceasefire could be possible in gaza, then it might be easier to calm the region down. but, while the war in gaza is going on and while palestinians are still being killed, and while hamas continue to hold those israeli hostages, then, if you like, the burner keeps getting hotter in what happens around the region.

and that, of course, is something that everybody needs to be concerned about. what about the prospects, though, of some kind of deal? there's been a lot of reporting in the last few days suggesting there could be some kind of deal on the way that could actually shift things. what do you think the prospects of that happening soon are? well, there was a very high—level meeting about a possible ceasefire in gaza, which was held in paris. and the head of the cia was there, along with a number of his counterparts from israel, from egypt. the prime minister of qatar was there, too. but, as yet, that hasn't led to anything. and there seems to be a pretty big gulf between what israel wants, which is basically all the hostages out, and what hamas wants, which is a permanent ceasefire. so no doubt those discussions will be continuing. but it's a big gulf, and it might be impossible to bridge that gap. what the americans are hoping, and they've been leaking this and talking about it,

is from a ceasefire, a grand bargain, if you like, in the whole region. a bargain which will include the saudis recognising israel, israel allowing a palestinian state. but that is an immensely complicated, demanding diplomatic process that even if the first stage started, which is a ceasefire and then a permanent ceasefire, it would require a great deal of luck, everything going right and nothing going wrong. so i wouldn't hold your breath on that one. jeremy bowen, thanks so much for joining us from jerusalem. thank you. justine, such a complicated jigsaw. you were in cabinet when there were some targeted strikes against isis, what will people in the british government be thinking about and considering?— considering? they will be getting the defence _ considering? they will be getting the defence intelligence - considering? they will be getting the defence intelligence reportsl considering? they will be getting l the defence intelligence reports to find out exactly what the assessment is of the impact of the strikes. i

think beyond that, you are left with your next range of objectives and actions. and comparing that against the risks of inaction. and i think it is often forgotten that any of these routes you might take forward, militarily, have risks. there are also risks to not responding to the sorts of attacks we have seen recently. sorts of attacks we have seen recentl . ,, . . sorts of attacks we have seen recentl. ,, . ., , . ., . recently. such a difficult balancing act, and recently. such a difficult balancing act. and there _ recently. such a difficult balancing act, and there will— recently. such a difficult balancing act, and there will be _ recently. such a difficult balancing act, and there will be much - recently. such a difficult balancing act, and there will be much more| act, and there will be much more reporting on the bbc on that through the day. let's turn to our main story, we will hear shortly from esther ghey, brianna's mum, she makes a powerful call to take under 16s offer social media, to make it easierfor parents to 16s offer social media, to make it easier for parents to know what is going on online. you work for facebook for many years. is there a need for that? because the government has just passed a whole range of laws in the online safety bill. ~ ., range of laws in the online safety bill. ~ . ., range of laws in the online safety bill. . ., ., ., range of laws in the online safety bill. ~ . ., ., , ., ., ., bill. we are at a pivotal moment, we did ass bill. we are at a pivotal moment, we did pass that — bill. we are at a pivotal moment, we did pass that last _ bill. we are at a pivotal moment, we did pass that last year, _ bill. we are at a pivotal moment, we did pass that last year, and - bill. we are at a pivotal moment, we did pass that last year, and we - bill. we are at a pivotal moment, we did pass that last year, and we have| did pass that last year, and we have given— did pass that last year, and we have

given really— did pass that last year, and we have given really extensive powers to ofcom, — given really extensive powers to ofcom, the regulator that regulates not ofcom, the regulator that regulates nonlet— ofcom, the regulator that regulates notjust the internet now, but also mobile _ notjust the internet now, but also mobile phones and telephone companies, to give them really extensive — companies, to give them really extensive powers to look at the risks _ extensive powers to look at the risks on — extensive powers to look at the risks on all of the platforms, and then_ risks on all of the platforms, and then order— risks on all of the platforms, and then order the companies to do things— then order the companies to do things to — then order the companies to do things to mitigate the risks. it's 'ust things to mitigate the risks. it's just starting to roll out. but i think— just starting to roll out. but i think this _ just starting to roll out. but i think this is a pivotal moment where we can_ think this is a pivotal moment where we can he _ think this is a pivotal moment where we can be optimistic that we have some _ we can be optimistic that we have some new— we can be optimistic that we have some new tools in the armoury. but it will take a — some new tools in the armoury. pm it will take a while before we know if it makes a difference? i it will take a while before we know if it makes a difference?— if it makes a difference? i think the companies _ if it makes a difference? i think the companies will _ if it makes a difference? i think the companies will start - if it makes a difference? i think - the companies will start responding very quickly, now they have a regulator— very quickly, now they have a regulator breathing down their necks — regulator breathing down their necks. it's not up to them any more. they— necks. it's not up to them any more. they have _ necks. it's not up to them any more. they have to— necks. it's not up to them any more. they have to do what they are told to do _ they have to do what they are told to do or _ they have to do what they are told to do or there are serious legal threat — to do or there are serious legal threat in — to do or there are serious legal threat in the legislation. white knuckle — threat in the legislation. white knuckle andrea, for your readers at marie _ knuckle andrea, for your readers at marie claire, how much of an issue is this? _ marie claire, how much of an issue is this? |_ marie claire, how much of an issue is this? ~ , ., ., ,, is this? i think it is a massive issue. is this? i think it is a massive issue- if— is this? i think it is a massive issue- if you _ is this? i think it is a massive issue. if you are _ is this? i think it is a massive issue. if you are a _ is this? i think it is a massive issue. if you are a mother, i is this? i think it is a massive i issue. if you are a mother, you either— issue. if you are a mother, you either refuse _ issue. if you are a mother, you either refuse the _ issue. if you are a mother, you either refuse the phone - issue. if you are a mother, you either refuse the phone or- issue. if you are a mother, you either refuse the phone or you| issue. if you are a mother, you - either refuse the phone or you give your children — either refuse the phone or you give your children a _ either refuse the phone or you give your children a phone _ either refuse the phone or you give your children a phone and - either refuse the phone or you give your children a phone and you - either refuse the phone or you give| your children a phone and you open up your children a phone and you open up the _ your children a phone and you open up the whole — your children a phone and you open up the whole internet. _ your children a phone and you open up the whole internet. it _ your children a phone and you open up the whole internet. it is - up the whole internet. it is cornpietety_ up the whole internet. it is completely unregulated. . up the whole internet. it is i completely unregulated. i'm up the whole internet. it is - completely unregulated. i'm editing a platform. — completely unregulated. i'm editing a platform. we _ completely unregulated. i'm editing a platform, we have _ completely unregulated. i'm editing a platform, we have ofcom -

a platform, we have ofcom guidelines. _ a platform, we have ofcom guidelines, we _ a platform, we have ofcom guidelines, we are - a platform, we have ofcom. guidelines, we are regulated a platform, we have ofcom - guidelines, we are regulated and i don't _ guidelines, we are regulated and i don't see — guidelines, we are regulated and i don't see why _ guidelines, we are regulated and i don't see why other— guidelines, we are regulated and i don't see why other platforms - guidelines, we are regulated and ii don't see why other platforms have been so _ don't see why other platforms have been so slow — don't see why other platforms have been so slow to _ don't see why other platforms have been so slow to adopt _ don't see why other platforms have been so slow to adopt a _ don't see why other platforms have j been so slow to adopt a regulation. ifeel— been so slow to adopt a regulation. ifeel this _ been so slow to adopt a regulation. i feel this could _ been so slow to adopt a regulation. i feel this could be _ been so slow to adopt a regulation. i feel this could be a _ i feel this could be a really important _ i feel this could be a really important step, _ i feel this could be a really important step, and - i feel this could be a really important step, and a - i feel this could be a really. important step, and a much i feel this could be a really- important step, and a much needed step to _ important step, and a much needed step to protect— important step, and a much needed step to protect young _ important step, and a much needed step to protect young people. - important step, and a much needed step to protect young people. it - important step, and a much needed step to protect young people. it is i step to protect young people. it is interestin: step to protect young people. interesting that you say it step to protect young people. it“. ii: interesting that you say it is a pivotal moment, but whether parents feel like that remains to be seen. no family in the country, probably none of you watching today, will not have been struck by the horror of what happened to brianna ghey, a 16—year—old with her life ahead of her, killed by two other teenagers almost exactly a year ago. on friday her murderers — scarlettjenkinson and eddie ratcliffee — were sent to prison for their cime. they'd planned the killing on messaging apps. scarlett had searched out images of violence and torture on the dark corners of the internet. now, brianna's mum, an exceptionally courageous and compassionate woman, esther ghey, wants to try to stop any other family from going through the same experience. she was here yesterday, and told us what brianna was like. she was absolutely full of life. she was such a character.

she was she was really, really outgoing. and she just she loved attention. she loved to be on tiktok. she loved having all of the likes that she used to receive. and she was the life and soul of the party, really. and everybody knew brianna. and anybody who ever met brianna would never forget her. you were in court, then, to hear the sentencing on friday of the two teenagers who took brianna's life. what was it like, being there? it was a difficult day, and it was hard to be in the courtroom because up until now we were in a public gallery, so we couldn't really see both scarlett and eddie. i made a conscious effort not to look at them both. i didn't want to see their faces. i didn't want to directly look at them and see what their reactions were.

i feel that the sentence that the judge gave them was right. i don't think that scarlett will come out of prison, ever. i don't think there's any chance of rehabilitation. so i think that the sentencing was correct. she was given a minimum of 22 years. eddie ratcliffe was given a minimum of 20 years. do you think you would ever... can you ever imagine a time when you might forgive what they did? i don't carry any hate for either of them, because hate is such a harmful emotion to the person that's holding that. but with regards to forgiving them, i think that... no, no, no, not really. it's incredible to hear you say, though, you carry no hatred towards them, even though they took the life of your daughter. you know, they planned it. they discussed it on messaging apps.

you know that scarlett had been on the dark web watching videos of violence and torture. and i think you've just shown then, again, that extraordinary compassion that people around the country have seen in the last few weeks. scarlett�*s mother has thanked you for your compassion. i wonder, did you see her in court? i've seen her, but we haven't come face to face. but when when i think of their emotions and how they're feeling, itjust brings back how i felt when all this happened in february. because, you know, she does she looks completely broken, really. and rightly so. she's she's going through an absolutely horrific time. is there anything that you would want to say to her? i think that i would like to say that... if she did want to contact me

and she does want to speak, then i'm open to that. i'd like to understand more how their life was and what they they went through. and i also want her to know that i don't blame her for what her child's done. and i also want her to know that i understand how difficult being a parent is in this current day and age, with technology, and phones, and the internet and how hard it is to actually monitor what your child is on. so if she ever wants to speak to me, i'm here. one of the things you've been extremely careful not to do is to allow brianna's death to be swept into what's often a very difficult conversation about how transgender people are treated. you did say, though, in your statement to the courts that this happened partly because one of the teenagers

did have a hatred for transgender people. now the court process is complete, do you believe that played a role? i believe that with eddie, there was hate there. there was hate for trans people. but i also think that he is a hateful boy, and i think that he would hate many people regardless. and so whether it was... i think it was a contributing factor. but i think he's just a hateful person. you have shown incredible strength in this terrible ordeal, that you and your family have been through. but i know now you want to turn your attention to some of the things that you would like to see change, to help other families and other teenagers with the challenges of living in the 21st century. what is it that you would like to change? so, i would like to see mobile phone

companies take more responsibility. it's so difficult for parents now to safeguard their children. they carry a mobile phone in their pocket 21w. it's a smartphone with the internet, with all the different social media sites. and it's just so difficult to keep on top of what they're doing. so we've set up a petition which would like all families and parents to back and sign. we'd like a law introduced so that there are mobile phones that are suitable for under 16. so if you're over 16, you can have an adult phone, but under the age of 16 you can have a children's phone which will not have all of the social media apps that are out there now. and also to have software that's automatically downloaded on a parent's phone, which links the children's phone

and it can highlight key words. so if a child is searching the kind of words that scarlett and eddie were searching, and it would then flag upon the parents' phone. there is software already available. i know that schools are already using this kind of software so that if students do type something in that's concerning, it then flags up to the teachers. i feel like it's such a simple solution and i don't understand why we haven't actually done something like this already. why do you think that's needed? so, when brianna was was with us, she struggled with her mental health. and i found out after she was actually on certain social media sites, on pro—anorexia sites and self—harm sites, which i wasn't aware of. it got to, when brianna turned around ia, it was

so difficult to monitor her phone because she wanted that trust. and she was very protective over her phone. if she couldn't have accessed these sites, she wouldn't have suffered as much. and like i said, they carry this phone around 21w, and it's just not doable for a parent to to monitor that. do you think if some of those safeguards had been in place now and there was a flagging system that might have picked up what scarlett and eddie were searching for, that brianna might have been safe? yeah. yeah, without a doubt. i think that, for either one, they wouldn't have been searching that in the first place. and, two, if they did search it, then the parents would know and they'd be able to get them some kind of help. one of the other things you'd like to see is teaching kids mindfulness in schools, to help them deal more with the challenges that come to us all. tell us what you would like to see.

and i know also in warrington, in your town, you've managed already to raise lots of money to put this in place in local schools. yes, yes. so we've been i've been campaigning with the warrington guardian to raise enough money to get a teacher in every school in warrington trained in mindfulness. it's such an important thing to be taught how to take care of your mental health, how to build mental resilience, and also how to be more empathetic. like, all of these things are skills that you can work on and that you can grow. well, we've got the education secretary on the programme today. i mean, what would you say to gillian keegan? would you want her to make it happen in every school? yeah, definitely. i think that mindfulness needs to be... really, ideally we don't need, we shouldn't only have one mindfulness teacher in every school. it should be completely embedded into the school system. and also this week, we saw parents in america

confront mark zuckerberg, the boss of meta, which of course, owns facebook, and instagram and lots of those other big apps. if he was here, what would you say to him or other social media bosses? i think that the focus is always on making such a lot of money, and not really how we protect people, or how we can necessarily benefit society. and i think that greed needs to be taken out of the picture, and we need to focus a little bit more on how we can help each other. and, yeah, it was such a powerful thing to see the parents all standing up to them. it's quite out of control. i heard somebody once call the internet the wild west, and that's basically what it is. and we've kind of got our children, we threw them in, in the deep end of it. and, yes, something needs to change now.

and i do feel like we are potentially at a tipping point where we can make things better. in your statement that you gave to the court, which was full of compassion, full of courage, also obviously you're expressing your sorrow. but you also wrote that you felt you failed brianna, by not being able to protect her. but, esther, no—one listening to you today could you imagine for a second that you failed her. and you speak with such conviction and and strength. why did you feel that way? sorry... i think that as a parent.... i'm all that brianna had, i was the one that was supposed to to look after her. and it was.... as i said before, about

the issues that she had and the struggles that she had. it was difficult as a parent to go through that with her as well. and i think you can always look back and wish that you'd done things differently. maybe if i had done things differently, that this wouldn't have happened. next week it's a year, and i think you'll be holding a vigil. can you share with us what will be the happiest memory that you have, or the thing that you and your family remember most fondly, you and your other daughter, alisha? it sounds probably quite daft, but it's just being at home in our pyjamas, like, just relaxing together, watching something stupid on tv and eating pizza. that was her favourite food. good times don't have to cost anything. and the best times are the times

when you're just completely relaxed, and just thinking of her at home and... popping her head in, in her little fluffy pink pyjamas. saying, "mum, can we have a domino's pizza?" and yeah, just being at home and being with her. and she was such she was such a homebird. i think that's why it was so difficult, because she was just always there. she was always at home. when i came home, she would be home. and that's why the house felt so empty without her. but, yeah, the best memories are just the simple ones. it's been a huge privilege having you with us in the studio today and sharing your memories. please come back another time and tell us how your campaign is getting on. esther, thank you so much. thank you. the education secretary gillian keegan's been listening.

she believes s mobiles and apps for under 16s should not be allowed. are you considering that? first under 16s should not be allowed. are you considering that?— under16s should not be allowed. are you considering that?— you considering that? first that was really heartbreaking _ you considering that? first that was really heartbreaking to _ you considering that? first that was really heartbreaking to listen - you considering that? first that was really heartbreaking to listen to. . really heartbreaking to listen to. actually, the strength that she shows is actually remarkable. i'm sure she will be a very formidable campaigner on this and other issues. just the whole story is shocking. and you know what they had access to, how it influenced them and it's very sobering for every part across the country. this is something that parents of this generation are grappling with all the time. their children are much more tech savvy, evenif children are much more tech savvy, even if you have some of the controls that she was talking about. you still you know, you still know that they could get around them. so

this is one of the huge focuses of the legislation of the online safety act, which as richard said, has a lot of tools in there. to try and make this content not be there in the first place. which is what we are trying to do. but also the age verification part to work. in terms of what we are doing more than that, what we are looking to to do is to go one step further and ban the use of mobile phones in schools. there is many schools that do this already. but there are others that feel it is difficult, because it does end up being a tussle between the child and the teacher or the parent. the child and the teacher or the arent. �* ., , the child and the teacher or the arent. �* . , , ., ~ parent. but what she is talking about is something _ parent. but what she is talking about is something more - parent. but what she is talking i about is something more radical parent. but what she is talking - about is something more radicalthat about is something more radical that i think a lot of parents might think, yes, why don't which consider this, why don't we make a child—safe mobile phone or a ban under 16s from using social media. mobile phone or a ban under16s from using social media.— using social media. there are child safe mobile _ using social media. there are child safe mobile phones _ using social media. there are child safe mobile phones available. - using social media. there are child safe mobile phones available. the| safe mobile phones available. the problem is and it is something that

many parents will recognise is you know children are wanting to keep up with their peers. there is certain groups of parents that try to agree, we won't allow them to have this phone and they put particular software on there. it is a massive change. software on there. it is a massive chance. ., , , software on there. it is a massive chance. . , , , change. that is why some parents believe the _ change. that is why some parents believe the government _ change. that is why some parents believe the government needs - change. that is why some parents believe the government needs to | change. that is why some parents - believe the government needs to act, because it is impossible for them to do it on their own. that because it is impossible for them to do it on their own.— do it on their own. that is why we have acted _ do it on their own. that is why we have acted with _ do it on their own. that is why we have acted with the _ do it on their own. that is why we have acted with the online - do it on their own. that is why we have acted with the online safety| have acted with the online safety act. that is a massive piece of legislation, probably quite a leading position that we have taken in really making sure that the platforms are accountable for proper age verification and for appropriate things being on and available and inappropriate things not being there. so that act as we have said is onlyjust there. so that act as we have said is only just starting, there. so that act as we have said is onlyjust starting, although the regulators obviously mean that people will start to alter their

position. people will start to alter their osition. �* , ., people will start to alter their osition. �* ,, _ people will start to alter their osition. �* i. _ ., position. are you saying then that actually what _ position. are you saying then that actually what has _ position. are you saying then that actually what has to _ position. are you saying then that actually what has to happen - position. are you saying then that actually what has to happen is - position. are you saying then that | actually what has to happen is wait and see what the new law does and you will not at this stage consider something more radical like banning social media apps? it is something more radical like banning social media apps?— social media apps? it is alter their osition. social media apps? it is alter their position- are _ social media apps? it is alter their position. are you _ social media apps? it is alter their position. are you saying _ social media apps? it is alter their position. are you saying then - social media apps? it is alter their position. are you saying then that | position. are you saying then that actually what _ position. are you saying then that actually what has _ position. are you saying then that actually what has to _ position. are you saying then that actually what has to happen - position. are you saying then that actually what has to happen is - position. are you saying then that | actually what has to happen is wait and see what the new law does and you will not at this stage consider something more radical like banning social media apps? it is something more radical like banning social media apps?— social media apps? it is radical to ban smart — social media apps? it is radical to ban smart phones _ social media apps? it is radical to ban smart phones from _ social media apps? it is radical to ban smart phones from under- social media apps? it is radical to | ban smart phones from under 16s. even banning it in schools is quite a big step. but thatjust shows just how much we know and understand that this is really worrying to parents. it is worrying also in terms of the development of children and building friendships and those social relationships in school as well. it is a worry, because it is something that's rally new, not something we ever had to deal with, not something the last generation of parents, it is relatively new. so it is a worry. but i think the steps that we have taken they have yet to be seen by parents. 50 taken they have yet to be seen by arents. ., ., . .,

parents. so our audience will hear ou sa parents. so our audience will hear you say wait _ parents. so our audience will hear you say wait and _ parents. so our audience will hear you say wait and see, _ parents. so our audience will hear you say wait and see, nothing - parents. so our audience will hear. you say wait and see, nothing more radical now. i you say wait and see, nothing more radical now— radical now. i think the banning of mobile phone _ radical now. i think the banning of mobile phone in _ radical now. i think the banning of mobile phone in schools - radical now. i think the banning of mobile phone in schools is - radical now. i think the banning of. mobile phone in schools is something that we will be doing. i can mobile phone in schools is something that we will be doing.— that we will be doing. i can hear --eole that we will be doing. i can hear people saying — that we will be doing. i can hear people saying there _ that we will be doing. i can hear people saying there are - that we will be doing. i can hear people saying there are plenty i that we will be doing. i can hear| people saying there are plenty of mobile phones in the school my child goes to. mobile phones in the school my child aoes to. ., , mobile phones in the school my child aoes to. . , ., goes to. that is something that we have still got _ goes to. that is something that we have still got to _ goes to. that is something that we have still got to come. _ goes to. that is something that we have still got to come. will- goes to. that is something that we have still got to come. will it - have still got to come. will it happen? _ have still got to come. will it happen? that _ have still got to come. will it happen? that is _ have still got to come. will it happen? that is what - have still got to come. will it happen? that is what i - have still got to come. will it happen? that is what i want | have still got to come. will it i happen? that is what i want to ha en. happen? that is what i want to happen- again. _ happen? that is what i want to happen. again, it _ happen? that is what i want to happen. again, it is _ happen? that is what i want to i happen. again, it is empowering happen? that is what i want to - happen. again, it is empowering head teachers as well as parents to say, look, you should be in school to meet friends, to socialise, to learn all those other things and to be educated. sometimes you can use technology effectively for education. that is quite a big step, a lot of people... you education. that is quite a big step, a lot of people. . .— a lot of people... you want it to happen? _ a lot of people... you want it to happen? yes — a lot of people... you want it to happen? yes and _ a lot of people... you want it to happen? yes and that - a lot of people... you want it to happen? yes and that could - a lot of people... you want it to l happen? yes and that could help a lot of people... you want it to - happen? yes and that could help in the conversation _ happen? yes and that could help in the conversation parents _ happen? yes and that could help in the conversation parents have - happen? yes and that could help in the conversation parents have with | the conversation parents have with their children, it could help them say, look if you have this in schools, you shouldn't be spending a

lot of people... you schools, you shouldn't be spending a lot of people- - -_ lot of people... you want it to happen? _ lot of people... you want it to happen? yes _ lot of people... you want it to happen? yes and _ lot of people... you want it to happen? yes and that - lot of people... you want it to happen? yes and that could i lot of people... you want it to i happen? yes and that could help in the conversation _ happen? yes and that could help in the conversation parents _ happen? yes and that could help in the conversation parents have - happen? yes and that could help in the conversation parents have with | the conversation parents have with their children, it could help them say, look if you have this in schools, you shouldn't be spending all day on your phone. fine schools, you shouldn't be spending all day on your phone.— all day on your phone. one of the issues on — all day on your phone. one of the issues on this _ all day on your phone. one of the issues on this case _ all day on your phone. one of the issues on this case as _ all day on your phone. one of the issues on this case as the - all day on your phone. one of the issues on this case as the bbc - issues on this case as the bbc revealed, scarlettjenkinson was moved to a new school after she had spiked a younger child with a cannabis sweet, brianna ghey�*s school was not told the full detail. should they have known? obviously the should should they have known? obviously they should have _ should they have known? obviously they should have done. _ should they have known? obviously they should have done. i _ should they have known? obviously they should have done. i think- should they have known? obviously they should have done. i think the i they should have done. i think the warrington partnership are doing a review of that. but usually you should be quite open about, you know children do have... difficulties, children do have... difficulties, children do have... difficulties, children do get into trouble, children do get into trouble, children do get into trouble, children do have to move school for one reason or another. of course it is important that that is done transparently. is is important that that is done transparently.— is important that that is done transparently. is it the case in our transparently. is it the case in your view _ transparently. is it the case in your view that _ transparently. is it the case in your view that the _ transparently. is it the case in your view that the school - transparently. is it the case in your view that the school did i transparently. is it the case in i your view that the school did not follow the guidance correctly or the guidance needs to be more explicit that schools must pass on information. ; ii that schools must pass on information. ; i— that schools must pass on information. ; i i don't know, i know the _

information. ; i i don't know, i know the schools _ information. ; i i don't know, i know the schools within - information. ; i i don't know, i know the schools within the i information. ; i i don't know, i. know the schools within the area already have that under way. before we move on. _ already have that under way. before we move on, one _ already have that under way. before we move on, one of— already have that under way. before we move on, one of the _ already have that under way. before we move on, one of the other- already have that under way. before| we move on, one of the other things that brianna ghey�*s mother wants to see is mindfulness lessons introduced. would you do that? there is a lot of discussion. _ introduced. would you do that? there is a lot of discussion. again _ is a lot of discussion. again something which is probably something which is probably something that we are doing more than we would have done ten years ago. but you know mental health and taking a whole school approach to mental health. what we have at the moment, and i'm looking to see what more would make sense, what we have is senior mental health leaders being trained in every school and there is a grant available for that training. we have mental health support teams being rolled out to schools primary and secondary. bud schools primary and secondary. and --eole schools primary and secondary. and people would say there is not enough funding. it is a simple request, would you consider mindfulness being taught on the curriculum. brute would you consider mindfulness being taught on the curriculum.— taught on the curriculum. we don't set the curriculum, _

taught on the curriculum. we don't set the curriculum, every - taught on the curriculum. we don't set the curriculum, every head - set the curriculum, every head teacher does. we have the mental health lead for the whole school approach, mindfulness might be part, other aspects might be part. if approach, mindfulness might be part, other aspects might be part. ii the other aspects might be part. if the education secretary _ other aspects might be part. if the education secretary said _ other aspects might be part. if the education secretary said she would like it to happen. it is education secretary said she would like it to happen.— like it to happen. it is something, there is a group — like it to happen. it is something, there is a group in _ like it to happen. it is something, there is a group in parliament - like it to happen. it is something, | there is a group in parliament that do it. i'm always determined to go, but i haven't yet been. but i think the most important thing is this focus on mental health and helping with children's mental health. we know that causes anxiety and it is a difficult time for children and it is much more difficult growing up in a world with access to this online content, you look at everybody�*s lives there. it is a difficult world. and i do think mental health, the mental health support teams in schools are rolling out and we will get to 50% by this next year, but it takes time to train and you've

psychologists. let's talk about your plan for an apprenticeship scheme for teachers. is it potentially looking at teenagers, with not particularly stellar qualifications, being paid less than the normal minimum wage because they are an apprentice, teaching children? ?f}’s because they are an apprentice, teaching children?— teaching children? 70% of the occupations — teaching children? 70% of the occupations in _ teaching children? 70% of the occupations in this _ teaching children? 70% of the occupations in this country, i teaching children? 70% of the i occupations in this country, you teaching children? 70% of the - occupations in this country, you can now access via an apprenticeship. so that something the conservative government put in place since 2012. and it is actually a bit of a game changer. because not only are there many more occupations, whether it is financial analyst, nuclear scientist or space engineer, lawyer or doctor, pretty much anything you can name, you can do now. but also it is for all ages. you can do now. but also it is for allages. foryoung people, you can do now. but also it is for all ages. for young people, to get into professions, and for people to retrain or get a second shot. one of

the last ones is actually teaching. i wanted to do it when i was the partnerships and skills minister, but i did manage to get it through. what it will do, the three main cohorts, the first is young people who want to go into teaching but want to skip the student debt. all of the apprenticeships are now on ucas, so you can see the past to the same destination. the second group of people are people who want to shift career later on and go into teaching, give something back, a lot of people say that. or they are brilliant teaching assistants, we have 59,000 more than we had, and some of them might want to go into teaching. is some of them might want to go into teachinu. , ., ,., teaching. is it about getting teachers on _ teaching. is it about getting teachers on the _ teaching. is it about getting teachers on the cheap? - teaching. is it about getting | teachers on the cheap? they teaching. is it about getting - teachers on the cheap? they do get paid less. we teachers on the cheap? they do get aid less. ~ , ., ., , ., paid less. we put in our manifesto that we wanted _ paid less. we put in our manifesto that we wanted the _ paid less. we put in our manifesto that we wanted the starting - paid less. we put in our manifesto that we wanted the starting salary| that we wanted the starting salary to be £30,000, and i was proud to be the secretary of state he delivered that in september. so there is no

way. we want to broaden the roots. at the moment, you have to take three years without earning and taking on a student loan. for some people, that is not possible. i was talking to some social worker, degree apprentices last week, all of them said, i need to earn money, i have a family. one of them was a care worker herself. it broadens access. a care lever, say. it broadens access, so no matter where you are in life, you can get on. i think our apprenticeship system is thejewel in the think our apprenticeship system is the jewel in the crown and will help us grow our economy. you the jewel in the crown and will help us grow our economy.— us grow our economy. you were an apprentice — us grow our economy. you were an apprentice when — us grow our economy. you were an apprentice when you _ us grow our economy. you were an apprentice when you started - us grow our economy. you were an apprentice when you started off- us grow our economy. you were an apprentice when you started off in| apprentice when you started off in business. ., u, apprentice when you started off in business. ., .. ., ., business. you can imagine how passionate _ business. you can imagine how passionate i— business. you can imagine how passionate i am, _ business. you can imagine how passionate i am, i— business. you can imagine how passionate i am, i left - business. you can imagine how passionate i am, i left school. business. you can imagine how| passionate i am, i left school at 16, i went to a conference of school in knowsley, a 90% of the kids left without four or five gcses. most of them could have gone anywhere in life. we need to overcome these barriers. a degree apprenticeship does that, and i'm delighted that more and more people are talking

about them. it's really important and we need to stick with the plan. because labour will halve them. ioutwit because labour will halve them. what is also important _ because labour will halve them. what is also important to _ because labour will halve them. what is also important to people watching is also important to people watching is childcare. the government made a big promise, parents of two—year—olds are meant to get 15 hours of free childcare from april. can you give a guarantee to our view is that anyone who wants it will get it? ~ �* , ., , , ., is that anyone who wants it will get it? , ., ., it? we've been doing this plan to make sure _ it? we've been doing this plan to make sure we — it? we've been doing this plan to make sure we can _ it? we've been doing this plan to make sure we can deliver - it? we've been doing this plan to make sure we can deliver it. - it? we've been doing this plan to make sure we can deliver it. i'ml make sure we can deliver it. i'm pretty confident we can deliver it. that is not a guarantee. {lift pretty confident we can deliver it. that is not a guarantee. of course, we are working _ that is not a guarantee. of course, we are working through _ that is not a guarantee. of course, we are working through thousands | that is not a guarantee. of course, i we are working through thousands of businesses, we are putting it in place, i know parents want it, it will save them £6,500. it is a plan we will deliver and something most parents are waiting on. i'm working hard to make sure it happens. i have delivered lots of things, but i'm confident that it will happen. before we move on, i must ask about the latest strikes in yemen. there have been various strikes by britain and america over the last weeks

against yemeni targets. it attacks in the red sea keep going. it doesn't look like they are working? they are targeted and they take different targets every time, the launchers, some underground storage. we have to protect freedom of navigation, the ships and our navy in that region. so they are targeted and they want to basically do this to get rid of the capabilities that the houthis have. and as they find a capability, they will target to get rid of it. that is the approach. it is very targeted.— rid of it. that is the approach. it is very targeted. gillian keegan, ureat is very targeted. gillian keegan, treat to is very targeted. gillian keegan, great to have — is very targeted. gillian keegan, great to have you _ is very targeted. gillian keegan, great to have you with _ is very targeted. gillian keegan, great to have you with us - is very targeted. gillian keegan, great to have you with us in - is very targeted. gillian keegan, great to have you with us in the | great to have you with us in the studio. what do you think? let me know what you think. also let us know what you thought of esther ghey�*s radical calls for changing how children access the internet. email us at kuenssberg@bbc.co.uk. or on social use the hashtag #bbclaurak and we'll try and share some of of the converation later in the show. incredible strength and compassion from esther, do you think her idea

of something as radical as a ban on social media for kids is something your readers and people would like to see? i your readers and people would like to see? ., your readers and people would like to see? ~' your readers and people would like to see? ~ , , ., to see? i think so, yes. i mean, when children _ to see? i think so, yes. i mean, when children have _ to see? i think so, yes. i mean, when children have a _ to see? i think so, yes. i mean, - when children have a mobile phone, they are opening themselves up to all sorts of online platforms. there is a lot of extreme violence, self—harm, the lack of regulation means that parents are just struggling to cope. i think there will be a lot of grass roots support for this. will be a lot of grass roots support forthis. it's will be a lot of grass roots support for this. it's a much needed and overdue. i think it is a step that needed to be taken. a lot of social media platforms work on an algorithm, so our children are being served extreme content, when it is engaged with, it is controversial and pushed to the top of the feed, make yet more visible for young people. often, it's really harmful content they are seeing first. there

is new, content they are seeing first. there is new. chunky _ content they are seeing first. there is new, chunky legislation, - content they are seeing first. there is new, chunky legislation, we - content they are seeing first. there is new, chunky legislation, we have the secretary of state saying we've .ot the secretary of state saying we've got to _ the secretary of state saying we've got to wait and see what effect that has before considering anything more radical~ _ has before considering anything more radical~ if— has before considering anything more radical. if you were doing herjob now. _ radical. if you were doing herjob now. what— radical. if you were doing herjob now, what would you think of where they have _ now, what would you think of where they have got to? will it be enough? ithink— they have got to? will it be enough? i think it _ they have got to? will it be enough? i think it is _ they have got to? will it be enough? i think it is a — they have got to? will it be enough? i think it is a really important step— i think it is a really important step forward. _ i think it is a really important step forward, the _ i think it is a really important step forward, the online - i think it is a really important i step forward, the online safety bill. step forward, the online safety bill~ but — step forward, the online safety bill~ but if— step forward, the online safety bill. but if you _ step forward, the online safety bill. but if you think— step forward, the online safety bill. but if you think we - step forward, the online safety bill. but if you think we are - bill. but if you think we are in a world _ bill. but if you think we are in a world where _ bill. but if you think we are in a world where yesterday- bill. but if you think we are in a world where yesterday we - bill. but if you think we are in a | world where yesterday we didn't bill. but if you think we are in a - world where yesterday we didn't have these _ world where yesterday we didn't have these phones. — world where yesterday we didn't have these phones, and _ world where yesterday we didn't have these phones, and today— world where yesterday we didn't have these phones, and today we've - world where yesterday we didn't have these phones, and today we've got. these phones, and today we've got what we _ these phones, and today we've got what we got. — these phones, and today we've got what we got. and _ these phones, and today we've got what we got, and all— these phones, and today we've got what we got, and all of— these phones, and today we've got what we got, and all of the - these phones, and today we've got what we got, and all of the harm i what we got, and all of the harm that we — what we got, and all of the harm that we are — what we got, and all of the harm that we are seeing, _ what we got, and all of the harm that we are seeing, not - what we got, and all of the harm that we are seeing, notjust- what we got, and all of the harm that we are seeing, notjust in. that we are seeing, notjust in relation — that we are seeing, notjust in relation to— that we are seeing, notjust in relation to the _ that we are seeing, notjust in relation to the very _ that we are seeing, notjust in relation to the very extreme i that we are seeing, notjust in- relation to the very extreme harm, but this— relation to the very extreme harm, but this lone — relation to the very extreme harm, but this lone tale _ relation to the very extreme harm, but this lone tale of— relation to the very extreme harm, but this lone tale of bullying, - but this lone tale of bullying, depression. _ but this lone tale of bullying, depression, mental- but this lone tale of bullying, depression, mental health i but this lone tale of bullying, i depression, mental health issues, but this lone tale of bullying, - depression, mental health issues, we would _ depression, mental health issues, we would say— depression, mental health issues, we would say let's— depression, mental health issues, we would say let's ban— depression, mental health issues, we would say let's ban it. _ depression, mental health issues, we would say let's ban it. we _ depression, mental health issues, we would say let's ban it. we would i depression, mental health issues, we would say let's ban it. we would say. would say let's ban it. we would say this is— would say let's ban it. we would say this is like _ would say let's ban it. we would say this is like cigarettes, _ would say let's ban it. we would say this is like cigarettes, it's— would say let's ban it. we would say this is like cigarettes, it's like - this is like cigarettes, it's like alcohol~ — this is like cigarettes, it's like alcohol~ you _ this is like cigarettes, it's like alcohol. you would _ this is like cigarettes, it's like alcohol. you would never- alcohol. you would never allow children— alcohol. you would never allow children to _ alcohol. you would never allow children to go _ alcohol. you would never allow children to go into _ alcohol. you would never allow children to go into a _ alcohol. you would never allow children to go into a shop - alcohol. you would never allow children to go into a shop and i alcohol. you would never allow i children to go into a shop and buy a pornography — children to go into a shop and buy a pornography magazine. _ children to go into a shop and buy a pornography magazine. i— children to go into a shop and buy a pornography magazine. i do- children to go into a shop and buy a pornography magazine. i do think i children to go into a shop and buy a pornography magazine. i do think itj pornography magazine. i do think it has been _ pornography magazine. i do think it has been the — pornography magazine. i do think it has been the creeping _ pornography magazine. i do think it has been the creeping technology, i pornography magazine. i do think it. has been the creeping technology, in a sense. _ has been the creeping technology, in a sense. that — has been the creeping technology, in a sense, that has _ has been the creeping technology, in a sense, that has slightly— has been the creeping technology, in a sense, that has slightly muddied i a sense, that has slightly muddied our clarity— a sense, that has slightly muddied our clarity on — a sense, that has slightly muddied our clarity on the _ a sense, that has slightly muddied

our clarity on the legislation. i i a sense, that has slightly muddied our clarity on the legislation. idol our clarity on the legislation. i do think— our clarity on the legislation. i do think it _ our clarity on the legislation. i do think it is — our clarity on the legislation. i do think it is time — our clarity on the legislation. i do think it is time to— our clarity on the legislation. i do think it is time to look— our clarity on the legislation. i do think it is time to look at - our clarity on the legislation. i do think it is time to look at this. i. think it is time to look at this. i think— think it is time to look at this. i think if— think it is time to look at this. i think if the _ think it is time to look at this. i think if the tech _ think it is time to look at this. i think if the tech companies i think it is time to look at this. i. think if the tech companies find it hard to— think if the tech companies find it hard to do— think if the tech companies find it hard to do the _ think if the tech companies find it hard to do the regulation, - think if the tech companies find it hard to do the regulation, may i think if the tech companies find it| hard to do the regulation, may be the safest — hard to do the regulation, may be the safest way— hard to do the regulation, may be the safest way is _ hard to do the regulation, may be the safest way is to _ hard to do the regulation, may be the safest way is to say— hard to do the regulation, may be the safest way is to say up - hard to do the regulation, may be the safest way is to say up until i hard to do the regulation, may be | the safest way is to say up until 16 there _ the safest way is to say up until 16 there isn't— the safest way is to say up until 16 there isn't access. _ the safest way is to say up until 16 there isn't access. [5 _ the safest way is to say up until 16 there isn't access.— there isn't access. is not a very conservative — there isn't access. is not a very conservative thing _ there isn't access. is not a very conservative thing to _ there isn't access. is not a very conservative thing to call- there isn't access. is not a very conservative thing to call for, i there isn't access. is not a very i conservative thing to call for, your party doesn't traditionally like banning things?— party doesn't traditionally like banninaathins? , ~ , banning things? nobody likes banning thins, but if banning things? nobody likes banning things. but if it _ banning things? nobody likes banning things, but if it is _ banning things? nobody likes banning things, but if it is the _ banning things? nobody likes banning things, but if it is the right _ banning things? nobody likes banning things, but if it is the right thing i things, but if it is the right thing to do. _ things, but if it is the right thing to do. and — things, but if it is the right thing to do, and brianna's_ things, but if it is the right thing to do, and brianna's mother- things, but if it is the right thing| to do, and brianna's mother said things, but if it is the right thing i to do, and brianna's mother said it is so _ to do, and brianna's mother said it is so hard — to do, and brianna's mother said it is so hard to— to do, and brianna's mother said it is so hard to safeguard _ to do, and brianna's mother said it is so hard to safeguard a _ to do, and brianna's mother said it is so hard to safeguard a child i to do, and brianna's mother said it is so hard to safeguard a child as. to do, and brianna's mother said it is so hard to safeguard a child as a| is so hard to safeguard a child as a parent _ is so hard to safeguard a child as a parent if— is so hard to safeguard a child as a parent ifthe— is so hard to safeguard a child as a parent. if the parent _ is so hard to safeguard a child as a parent. if the parent thinks - is so hard to safeguard a child as a parent. if the parent thinks like i parent. if the parent thinks like that. _ parent. if the parent thinks like that. we — parent. if the parent thinks like that. we have _ parent. if the parent thinks like that, we have to _ parent. if the parent thinks like that, we have to take _ parent. if the parent thinks like that, we have to take a - parent. if the parent thinks like that, we have to take a fresh i parent. if the parent thinks like i that, we have to take a fresh look at this— that, we have to take a fresh look at this and — that, we have to take a fresh look at this and be _ that, we have to take a fresh look at this and be prepared _ that, we have to take a fresh look at this and be prepared to - that, we have to take a fresh look at this and be prepared to do- at this and be prepared to do what it takes _ at this and be prepared to do what it takes. ., , ., ., it takes. you started a facebook in 2009, but it takes. you started a facebook in 2009. but you _ it takes. you started a facebook in 2009, but you are _ it takes. you started a facebook in 2009, but you are also _ it takes. you started a facebook in 2009, but you are also a - it takes. you started a facebook in| 2009, but you are also a politician. you know these different dilemmas, and you are part of a documentary on skya documentaries, it looks at the interesting evolution of this, and it features a very young mark zuckerberg, talking about his

evolution into the king of the metaverse, is it realistic to talk about something as radical as a band? ~ ., ., ., ., , ., . band? we love analogies for tech companies. _ band? we love analogies for tech companies. i— band? we love analogies for tech companies, ithink— band? we love analogies for tech companies, i think vehicles i band? we love analogies for tech companies, i think vehicles and l band? we love analogies for tech i companies, i think vehicles and cars are one _ companies, i think vehicles and cars are one of— companies, i think vehicles and cars are one of the most appropriate ones _ are one of the most appropriate ones. there are people inside the tech companies doing the equivalent of developing digital seat belts and airbags. _ of developing digital seat belts and airbags, the things needed to keep people _ airbags, the things needed to keep people safe. but their voices are much _ people safe. but their voices are much quieter than those who want the car to— much quieter than those who want the car to go— much quieter than those who want the car to go faster and be shinier. we need _ car to go faster and be shinier. we need to— car to go faster and be shinier. we need to redress that balance. all of the ideas _ need to redress that balance. all of the ideas like esther put forwards, they are _ the ideas like esther put forwards, they are already being considered in they are already being considered in the companies. what are the regulation will do is to tip over the balance of power so the people arguing _ the balance of power so the people arguing for the safety features will be saying, look, it's not whether or not we _ be saying, look, it's not whether or not we want — be saying, look, it's not whether or not we want to have a seat belt, we have _ not we want to have a seat belt, we have to _ not we want to have a seat belt, we have to have — not we want to have a seat belt, we have to have one or ofcom will come after us _ have to have one or ofcom will come after us. ~ . �* , ., ., after us. will a british regulator reall be after us. will a british regulator really be able _ after us. will a british regulator really be able to _ after us. will a british regulator really be able to take _ after us. will a british regulator really be able to take on - after us. will a british regulator really be able to take on these l after us. will a british regulator i really be able to take on these huge titans? this with your old colleague nick clegg, who now works at meta,

we saw e—mails he had sent, appealing to mark zuckerberg for more help and support, for people to work on safety. and he was turned down, it didn't happen. i work on safety. and he was turned down, it didn't happen.— down, it didn't happen. i think it is an example — down, it didn't happen. i think it is an example of _ down, it didn't happen. i think it is an example of exactly - down, it didn't happen. i think it is an example of exactly that i is an example of exactly that dynamic _ is an example of exactly that dynamic. a lot of the people who work _ dynamic. a lot of the people who work for— dynamic. a lot of the people who work for the company in the uk for years— work for the company in the uk for years have — work for the company in the uk for years have been flagging there are issues _ years have been flagging there are issues. the regulator does make a difference — issues. the regulator does make a difference. there are some really 0wners— difference. there are some really owners things that companies will have to _ owners things that companies will have to do — owners things that companies will have to do if they want to keep serving — have to do if they want to keep serving children in the uk. that is in the _ serving children in the uk. that is in the bill~ — serving children in the uk. that is in the bill. —— onerous. they could .et in the bill. —— onerous. they could get out _ in the bill. —— onerous. they could get out of— in the bill. —— onerous. they could get out of the _ in the bill. —— onerous. they could get out of the uk market will get the act _ get out of the uk market will get the act together. those are the only choices _ the act together. those are the only choices. they can't carry on as they are under— choices. they can't carry on as they are underthis— choices. they can't carry on as they are under this legislation. i think we will— are under this legislation. i think we will see — are under this legislation. i think we will see some services withdrawing from serving children in the uk _ withdrawing from serving children in the uk because they will find it too difficult. _ the uk because they will find it too difficult, the ones with sexualised content. — difficult, the ones with sexualised content, they will not be able to do that any— content, they will not be able to do that any more. they either have to make _ that any more. they either have to make sure — that any more. they either have to make sure they can get rid of it all and prove — make sure they can get rid of it all and prove to ofcom that they have, they can't _ and prove to ofcom that they have, they can't hide, can't live, they have _ they can't hide, can't live, they have to — they can't hide, can't live, they have to give ofcom the information they need. — have to give ofcom the information they need, or they get out of the uk

market _ they need, or they get out of the uk market. |s— they need, or they get out of the uk market. . . they need, or they get out of the uk market. , . ., , , market. is that reassuring in f, andrea, market. is that reassuring in f, andrea. to _ market. is that reassuring in f, andrea, to parents _ market. is that reassuring in f, andrea, to parents listening? i market. is that reassuring in f, i andrea, to parents listening? so many adults are completely addicted to their phones. i many adults are completely addicted to their phones.— to their phones. i think more needs to their phones. i think more needs to be done — to their phones. i think more needs to be done globally, _ to their phones. i think more needs to be done globally, perhaps i to their phones. i think more needs to be done globally, perhaps we i to their phones. i think more needs i to be done globally, perhaps we need a global regulation. it's not enough to do it nationally. they are global companies. we are all part of companies. we are all part of companies that are putting out information in the uk to a set number of people, a certain number of people. they are talking to children across the world and they have the power to influence them. i think global regulation might be something that needs to happen. i think you are right. the eu and the uk have _ think you are right. the eu and the uk have regulated, the missing piece of the _ uk have regulated, the missing piece of the jigsaw is the us, where many of the jigsaw is the us, where many of the _ of the jigsaw is the us, where many of the companies are hosted. we saw a lot of— of the companies are hosted. we saw a lot of heat. — of the companies are hosted. we saw a lot of heat, but very little actual— a lot of heat, but very little actual action from a legislative

point _ actual action from a legislative point of— actual action from a legislative point of view.— point of view. dramatic senate hearings. _ point of view. dramatic senate hearings, mark _ point of view. dramatic senate hearings, mark zuckerberg i point of view. dramatic senate i hearings, mark zuckerberg accused point of view. dramatic senate - hearings, mark zuckerberg accused of having blood on his hand? we hearings, mark zuckerberg accused of having blood on his hand?— having blood on his hand? we are still a way away — having blood on his hand? we are still a way away from _ having blood on his hand? we are still a way away from getting i having blood on his hand? we are| still a way away from getting eight us online — still a way away from getting eight us online safety act, which would be a game _ us online safety act, which would be a game changer. us online safety act, which would be a game changer-— a game changer. childcare, the education _ a game changer. childcare, the education secretary _ a game changer. childcare, the education secretary said - a game changer. childcare, the education secretary said she i a game changer. childcare, the i education secretary said she was pretty confident and then very confident that any parent in england he wants free childcare from april will get it. justine, you introduced a fair few proposals in government, do you think it will work? i a fair few proposals in government, do you think it will work?— do you think it will work? i think it will be very — do you think it will work? i think it will be very challenging. i i do you think it will work? i think| it will be very challenging. i think it will be very challenging. i think it is a _ it will be very challenging. i think it is a key— it will be very challenging. i think it is a key test— it will be very challenging. i think it is a key test of— it will be very challenging. i think it is a key test of competence i it will be very challenging. i think it is a key test of competence ori it is a key test of competence or rishi _ it is a key test of competence or rishi sunak's _ it is a key test of competence or rishi sunak's government. i it is a key test of competence or i rishi sunak's government. as gillian keegan _ rishi sunak's government. as gillian keegan rightly— rishi sunak's government. as gillian keegan rightly set _ rishi sunak's government. as gillian keegan rightly set out, _ rishi sunak's government. as gillian keegan rightly set out, the - keegan rightly set out, the difficulty— keegan rightly set out, the difficulty is— keegan rightly set out, the difficulty is you _ keegan rightly set out, the difficulty is you are - keegan rightly set out, the| difficulty is you are working keegan rightly set out, the - difficulty is you are working with thousands — difficulty is you are working with thousands of— difficulty is you are working with thousands of individual- difficulty is you are working with| thousands of individual childcare providers — thousands of individual childcare providers it_ thousands of individual childcare providers. it feels _ thousands of individual childcare providers. it feels to _ thousands of individual childcare providers. it feels to me - thousands of individual childcare providers. it feels to me like - providers. it feels to me like there's— providers. it feels to me like there's a _ providers. it feels to me like there's a lot _ providers. it feels to me like there's a lot of _ providers. it feels to me like there's a lot of catch - providers. it feels to me like there's a lot of catch up - providers. it feels to me like i there's a lot of catch up going providers. it feels to me like - there's a lot of catch up going on at the _ there's a lot of catch up going on at the department _ there's a lot of catch up going on at the department for— there's a lot of catch up going oni at the department for education, there's a lot of catch up going on - at the department for education, and let's hope. _ at the department for education, and let's hope, because _ at the department for education, and let's hope, because this— at the department for education, and let's hope, because this is— at the department for education, and let's hope, because this is an - let's hope, because this is an important _ let's hope, because this is an important policy— let's hope, because this is an important policy step - let's hope, because this is anl important policy step forward, let's hope, because this is an - important policy step forward, that parents _ important policy step forward, that parents are — important policy step forward, that parents are able _ important policy step forward, that parents are able to _ important policy step forward, that parents are able to access - important policy step forward, that parents are able to access the - important policy step forward, that parents are able to access the 33 l parents are able to access the 33 hours _ parents are able to access the 33

hours of — parents are able to access the 33 hours of childcare _ parents are able to access the 33 hours of childcare that _ parents are able to access the 33 hours of childcare that they - parents are able to access the 33 hours of childcare that they have| hours of childcare that they have been _ hours of childcare that they have been promised. _ hours of childcare that they have been promised.— hours of childcare that they have been promised. hours of childcare that they have been romised. . . ., . ., been promised. andrea, how much do --eole been promised. andrea, how much do peeple need — been promised. andrea, how much do peeple need it? _ been promised. andrea, how much do people need it? from _ been promised. andrea, how much do people need it? from our— been promised. andrea, how much do people need it? from our readership, | people need it? from our readership, it is a big issue. _ people need it? from our readership, it is a big issue. we _ people need it? from our readership, it is a big issue. we did _ people need it? from our readership, it is a big issue. we did a _ people need it? from our readership, it is a big issue. we did a survey - it is a big issue. we did a survey and 70% of women admitted they had put off having children because of the cost of childcare. and, you know, the knock—on effect is to be seenin know, the knock—on effect is to be seen in all of our workplaces, women are dropping out of the workforce at key points in their careers. they are not going for promotions, because the childcare is not there. i wonder if they have actually spoken to parents about this. it's 38 weeks a year, and i don't know many parents that work 38 weeks a year, you know, we need a wraparound care. i rememberstruggling year, you know, we need a wraparound care. i remember struggling to work full time with that. a lot of people just don't go back to work. it's just don't go back to work. it's just not worth their time. once they

have paid the childcare fees. the roof have paid the childcare fees. the - roof will have paid the childcare fees. the proof will be _ have paid the childcare fees. the proof will be in the pudding, a big new plan is meant to be coming in april. let's see if it works out. you can always tell us what your experiences have been and if you're trying to get the free childcare. a few minutes ago we heard so powerfully from brianna ghey�*s mum — calling for under—165 to be stopped from using social media apps, and much tougher controls to keep them safe online. her demand's just days after an extroardinary hearing in washington dc where mark zuckerberg, the chief executive of meta which owns facebook and instagram, was accused of having "blood on his hands". he later apologised to parents who said their children had been harmed by social media, saying no—one should do through what they have. peter kyle, labour's shadow technoclogy secretary, is in washington now and is meeting tech companies this week. it must be very early in the morning. we are discussing all of these difficult issues, is a ban on

social media for under—165 something labour might consider? i’m social media for under-16s something labour might consider?— labour might consider? i'm open minded about _ labour might consider? i'm open minded about how— labour might consider? i'm open minded about how we _ labour might consider? i'm open minded about how we go - labour might consider? i'm open minded about how we go forward labour might consider? i'm open - minded about how we go forward and i'm in discussion with bereaved families who have lost children to the impact of social media or social media has had an aggravating factor. we have to make sure the powers that s that exist are in place. the results from ofcom won't do live until the end of the year. it has taken five years for the bill to get on statue. it was paused and kemi badenoch called it legislating for hurt feelings. we need to get a grip on the challenge. i'm open minded about how we go forward. there are other things we could do quickly. the secretary of state for department of science innovation and

technology can issue a strategic statement to ofcom, which forces it to prioritise looking at certain issues. i think the role of the dark web, the path way in particular that people take from social media into the dark web is something that ofcom should be looking a at. i'm engaging with families to see if this is a tool that could be used and i'm open minded to using it should labour take office. is minded to using it should labour take office-— minded to using it should labour take office. , . . take office. is that something that ou take office. is that something that you believe _ take office. is that something that you believe the _ take office. is that something that you believe the technology - take office. is that something that i you believe the technology secretary should do, should she use that power to get ofcom to look at how you can access the dark web from social media apps. should that happen now? why wait? all i can do is prepare a programme of government, because we are in an election year and that is what i'm preparing for and i've been

engaging with bereaved families. but also let me say this, the it took five years to get the online safety act into statute. legislators and social media companies were far too late. there are other things coming down the line. the reason i'm in america is because ai, chatbots and deep fakes are on the horizon and the influence they will have over society and young people. we need to start getting ahead of the the curve on this. in part of preparing a programme of government to put to the electorate at the election, i'm looking carefully at how we can get ahead of the curve, so when these things wash over our society we are prepared and we have the regulation and the legislation and the relationship with the tech companies so that, also our international partners to work together to make sure the harm is mitigated before

the harm starts to have an impact. in terms of what happens now, when the laws were going through parliament, laboursaid the laws were going through parliament, labour said there was an important provision that the government took out that should go back in. so labour said at that point that legal but harmful content online for adults should also be outlawed. do you still believe that? and would you still look at that if you win the next election? i’m you win the next election? i'm already looking _ you win the next election? in already looking at and understanding how harmful but legal content and the impact it has. i'm not sure it needs to be brought into the same scope. there is legislation going through the house of lords and the government introduced legislation and they're watering down one part and they're watering down one part and that is the part coroners have

to demand action from the tech companies and the tech companies can't resist releasing that information. we are resisting all attempts to water down the powers coroners and other bodies have to hold tech companies to account, so they can release information about they can release information about the impact it is having on young people. irate the impact it is having on young --eole. ~ . . the impact it is having on young --eole. ~ , . ., the impact it is having on young n-eole. . , ., ., ., , people. we understand that coroners will aet people. we understand that coroners will net that people. we understand that coroners will get that power _ people. we understand that coroners will get that power to _ people. we understand that coroners will get that power to force _ will get that power to force companies to release information. i wonder, this week, dramatically, where you are in america, mark zuckerburg was accused of having blood on his hands, do you agree with that? i blood on his hands, do you agree with that? ~' . with that? i think the tech companies _ with that? i think the tech companies bear _ with that? i think the tech companies bear a - with that? i think the tech companies bear a lot - with that? i think the tech companies bear a lot of. with that? l think the tech | companies bear a lot of the responsibility. i think legislators are also behind the curve. but the primary blame does rest with the people developing this technology. because they knew before anybody else the impact it could have. they

saw the coding and designed this and what we learned from brianna ghey�*s case is that the two youngsters that killed her were interacting online and expressing some violent thoughts online on social media. what the algorithms do is match people with similar concerns and similar language together. the algorithm brings people together who share that certain values. so it is clear that certain values. so it is clear that social media is bringing together people with harmful values, potentially on a journey towards a criminal activity and they might well have known this ahead of time. we need to make sure that where there is the potential for harm, tech companies are throwing open the doors, so we can have transparency and we can work together to mitigate the harms. and we see something the potential at the moment where the

way that al is going in its real frontier technology and we will move from a voluntary code to a statutory code, so companies have to release the test data and tell us what they're testing for so we can see what is happening and where this technology is taking us. to what is happening and where this technology is taking us.— what is happening and where this technology is taking us. to be clear on what that _ technology is taking us. to be clear on what that means _ technology is taking us. to be clear on what that means if _ technology is taking us. to be clear on what that means if people - technology is taking us. to be clear on what that means if people are l technology is taking us. to be clear. on what that means if people are not familiar with the jargon, you're saying that you would if you're in governmentf saying that you would if you're in government f you win the election, you would force companies working particularly in artificial intelligence to publish what they're doing in their hard drives, what they're doing in the back end of their systems?— they're doing in the back end of their systems? indeed. we would move, we would _ their systems? indeed. we would move, we would compel - their systems? indeed. we would move, we would compel by - their systems? indeed. we would move, we would compel by law. their systems? indeed. we would - move, we would compel by law those test data results to be released to government so the safety institute set up by rishi sunak can scrutinise and look at the implications and

just reassure the public that independently we are scrutinising what is happening in some of the real cutting edge parts of the technology development when it comes to art yishl spell —— artificial speu to art yishl spell —— artificial spelljens. some of this technology will have a profound impact and we need to make sure that development is done safely and where there and the regulators are there to make sure that we are guiding them. we don't want to stop this development. if there is is stuff that challenging i would rather have a labour government having oversight and making sure it is not damaging

to the country. we have to have the relationships, we have to be honest about where legislation can make a difference and we have to work with countries like america to have a regulatory environment that crosses all boundaries.— all boundaries. thank you for “oininu all boundaries. thank you for joining us- — all boundaries. thank you for joining us. we _ all boundaries. thank you for joining us. we are _ all boundaries. thank you for joining us. we are grateful. all boundaries. thank you for | joining us. we are grateful for all boundaries. thank you for - joining us. we are grateful for you joining us. we are gratefulfor you for staying up and being short of sri lanka i hope you've some coffee there. interesting there, the extent of the challenge, it is not often you hear politicians talking about the need for global legislation. he said we have to get ahead of the curve and regulate for al. some people may say if you look at what happens in ten years, governments don't have a chance of doing that? the warning signs are there, i remember in 2010 at facebook which job was to tell politicians that facebook might be relevant for elections. you don't need to tell them that now. we could legislation forfake information now. we could also amend our election laws and say

any politicians that uses this kind of material, we will disqualify them. that is a good way of stopping it. ~ ., , ., ~ them. that is a good way of stopping it. . ., ~ ., them. that is a good way of stopping it. would you like to see that happen? _ it. would you like to see that happen? yes. _ it. would you like to see that happen? yes, we _ it. would you like to see that happen? yes, we haven't - it. would you like to see that - happen? yes, we haven't updated our law for election. _ happen? yes, we haven't updated our law for election. i _ happen? yes, we haven't updated our law for election. i would _ happen? yes, we haven't updated our law for election. i would rather- happen? yes, we haven't updated our law for election. i would rather put. law for election. i would rather put it on the statute now.— it on the statute now. you're a -oacher it on the statute now. you're a poacher turned _ it on the statute now. you're a poacher turned gamekeeper? | it on the statute now. you're a - poacher turned gamekeeper? yes. let's find solutions. _ poacher turned gamekeeper? yes. let's find solutions. it _ poacher turned gamekeeper? yes. let's find solutions. it is _ let's find solutions. it is interesting to hear brianna ghey�*s mum talk about solutions and ian russell is focussed on finding solutions. that is what we need to be looking at, less ofjust talki vaguely about the danger and saying let's try this. for vaguely about the danger and saying let's try this— let's try this. for politicians and the public. _ let's try this. for politicians and the public, they're _ let's try this. for politicians and the public, they're looking - let's try this. for politicians and the public, they're looking a - let's try this. for politicians and the public, they're looking a at| the public, they're looking a at artificial intelligence. there are such massive opportunities and

positives if ai can look at thousands of cancer cells a day. how can governments balance the risks and the opportunities? i can governments balance the risks and the opportunities?— and the opportunities? i think it is important. — and the opportunities? i think it is important, because _ and the opportunities? i think it is important, because we _ and the opportunities? i think it is important, because we are - and the opportunities? i think it is important, because we are at - and the opportunities? i think it is important, because we are at risk| and the opportunities? i think it is l important, because we are at risk of not accessing those opportunities, because _ not accessing those opportunities, because the focus is so much on the risks _ because the focus is so much on the risks i_ because the focus is so much on the risks ithink— because the focus is so much on the risks. i think the people because the focus is so much on the risks. ithink the people peter because the focus is so much on the risks. i think the people peter kyle made _ risks. i think the people peter kyle made is _ risks. i think the people peter kyle made is interesting and sensible, like food — made is interesting and sensible, like food manufacturers have been to share _ like food manufacturers have been to share the _ like food manufacturers have been to share the ingredients, why shouldn't tech companies be more transparent around _ tech companies be more transparent around the _ tech companies be more transparent around the coding so we c build sup up around the coding so we c build sup upa sense— around the coding so we c build sup up a sense of where risks rise. i think— up a sense of where risks rise. i think what— up a sense of where risks rise. i think what we a discussing that is part of— think what we a discussing that is part of how you create a safer world, — part of how you create a safer world, but _ part of how you create a safer world, but it is not sufficient s it is about — world, but it is not sufficient s it is about get that right balance between regulatation of harmful

material — between regulatation of harmful material and tech benefits from innovation. material and tech benefits from innovation-— material and tech benefits from innovation. , . . . innovation. there is a concern about “obs. are innovation. there is a concern about jobs- are you _ innovation. there is a concern about jobs. are you worried _ innovation. there is a concern about jobs. are you worried about - innovation. there is a concern about jobs. are you worried about the - innovation. there is a concern about jobs. are you worried about the rise | jobs. are you worried about the rise of robots coming for yourjobs? magazine editors or television journalists?— journalists? there is so much ositive journalists? there is so much positive stuff _ journalists? there is so much positive stuff to _ journalists? there is so much positive stuff to be _ journalists? there is so much positive stuff to be gained - journalists? there is so much l positive stuff to be gained from journalists? there is so much - positive stuff to be gained from al. it positive stuff to be gained from al. it will _ positive stuff to be gained from al. it will have — positive stuff to be gained from al. it will have a — positive stuff to be gained from al. it will have a huge _ positive stuff to be gained from al. it will have a huge impact - positive stuff to be gained from al. it will have a huge impact on- it will have a huge impact on productivitv _ it will have a huge impact on productivity. it— it will have a huge impact on productivity. it will— it will have a huge impact on productivity. it will be - it will have a huge impact on productivity. it will be useful it will have a huge impact on. productivity. it will be useful for research — productivity. it will be useful for research i— productivity. it will be useful for research. i do— productivity. it will be useful for research. i do feel— productivity. it will be useful for research. i do feel that - productivity. it will be useful for research. i do feel that you - productivity. it will be useful fori research. i do feel that you know productivity. it will be useful for. research. i do feel that you know a human— research. i do feel that you know a human will— research. i do feel that you know a human will need _ research. i do feel that you know a human will need to _ research. i do feel that you know a human will need to be _ research. i do feel that you know a human will need to be involved - human will need to be involved for you know — human will need to be involved for you know the _ human will need to be involved for you know the final— human will need to be involved for you know the final part _ human will need to be involved for you know the final part of - human will need to be involved for you know the final part of the - you know the final part of the process _ you know the final part of the process. what _ you know the final part of the process. what we _ you know the final part of the process. what we do - you know the final part of the process. what we do know. you know the final part of the process. what we do know is| you know the final part of the - 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you. we're coming up to the end of the show, so let's remind you of how we started. esther ghey, whose daughter brianna was murdered by teenagers scarlettjenkinson and eddie ratcliffe, had a message for scarlett�*s mum. i would like to say that... if she did want to contact me and she does want to speak, i'm open to that. i'd like to understand more how their life was and what they went through and i also want her to know that i don't blame herfor what and i also want her to know that i don't blame her for what her child's done. thank you for getting in touch. massive thanks to my panel — great to have you, andrea,

richard and justine. our huge thanks go to esther ghey for sharing her story. her frustations and anxiety about what kids see online is shared by so many families, in a world that's changing so fast. politicians here have come up with a new way of writing the rules, with the online saftey bill, which is new law. but it's far from certain it can stop the worst happening again, or even if it can keep up with the dizzying shifts in technology. we know it's one of the trickiest issues we face. share your expeirences, and we'll come back to it soon. you can catch up with anything you missed on iplayer, or, if you are a traditional telly type, i'll look forward to seeing you next sunday, same time same place.

there is a grant available for that training. we have mental

live from london. this is bbc news. the us and uk lead international air strikes on iran backed houthi positions in yemen — in the latest response to attacks on red sea ships. the manhunt continues for a man suspected of a corrosive substance attack on a mother and her daughters in south london. the mother of the murdered teenager brianna ghey is calling for a ban on access to social media apps for under—165. if you are over 16 you can have an aduu if you are over 16 you can have an adult phone but under the age of 16 you can have a children's phone, which will not have all of the social media apps. parisians are voting on whether to triple the cost of parking suvs in the french capital, a move denounced as manipulative by motorist groups. and the grammy awards —

celebrating the best of the music industry — are set to be dominated