we'll have the headlines for you at the top of the hour, which is straight after hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk with me, zeinab badawi. the conflict in sudan that broke out last april has created one of the world's worst humanitarian crises. about 11 million people have been forced to flee their homes and more than 13,000 have died. the fighting continues between the sudan armed forces, which is headed by general abdel fattah al—burhan, the de facto president of sudan, and his erstwhile deputy general, mohamed dagalo — better known as hemedti — who heads the rapid support forces militia, the rsf.

my guest is the former prime minister abdalla hamdok, who is playing a significant role in the negotiations. he has signed a deal with hemedti, so does this mean the rsf has effectively won the war? all hi, zeinab. abdalla hamdok in abu dhabi, welcome to hardtalk. nearly half of sudan's 49 million strong population is in dire need of humanitarian assistance. aid agencies can't get to them.

diseases are rife. what are you and others trying to do to help them? thank you for having me. this war is entering its ten months with no end in sight. we are passing through probably the worst humanitarian crisis in the recent history of the country with displacement, refugees, loss of life, shortage of everything — food, medicine, shelter, destruction of infrastructure, property collapse of the economy, collapse of the state. the un organisations like ocha, the who, unhcr put the death toll at about 13,000 — which is a very

conservative estimate — injuries, about 33,000. i think that this is far much higher than that. and i would like to believe we might spend years to be able to know the exact figure. as you said, there is huge displacement — over 11 million displaced refugees, around two million scattered all over the region. egypt hosting the highest number of refugees, close to 800,000. chad, over 500,000. similar number in south sudan. about 50,000 between uganda and kenya. ethiopia also hosting more than 50,000. the international community, thanks. they came to our rescue and all that. but, again, i think sudan has been neglected... can ijust say here, actually...?

..probably because of the current crisis. but you can see the appeal that was put forward for 2.6 or 2.7 billion, less than 40% of that was delivered, repeating the same old story during the transitional period... yeah. ..where it took us more than one year to lift the sanctions. can i come in here and ask you, abdalla hamdok — so, clearly, you're angry with the international community, which you say has been distracted by other crises — presumably, you're referring here to gaza and ukraine, is that right? yes, i think so. yes, 0k. i mean, the world is focusing its attention somewhere else. and do you think... but i think... do you think that this is a pattern? because a sudan analyst, highly respected — alex de waal, says, "this is a war of choice. "allowing it to happen was a failure of international "diplomacy. "foreign donors failed to appreciate the urgency "of lifting sanctions,

relieving the debt and bailing "out the collapsing economy." so, when you became prime minister in august 2019, after those heady days after the toppling of 0maral—bashir in april 2019, do you feel that the international community neglected your attempts to try to bring peace and stability? absolutely, zeinab. you know, we thought with such a great revolution in sudan, we would be rewarded by lifting the sanctions straight away. it took us more than a year for the sanctions to be lifted, which was a game—changer in the whole thing. had it been lifted earlier, we would have been able to be integrated with the international community and address issues of debt, issues of opening up the country and all that, so i think it is indeed a story of neglect. and i think the world needed to have rewarded that great change led by men and women,

the young people of the country, and toppling a dictator that lasted for over 30 years. so, let's look at the current efforts to try to bring peace and end this conflict. you are head of the taqaddum, which means "progress" in arabic — it's a civilian peace initiative with various groupings attached to it. you met general hemedti in addis ababa, in ethiopia, at the start of january and you signed the addis ababa agreement with him. but in doing so, do you not risk losing the support of the sudan armed forces, the saf? let me start first byjust outlining what taqaddum means, which is the acronym of the coordination of civilian democratic forces. this is a broad alliance of many organisations and institutions —

political parties, trade unions, professional civil society organisations, resistance committees and all that. it was established last year, end of october, and it started putting forward a road map, a declaration of principle and addressing the crisis. we do not believe there is a military solution for this crisis. we have to go through a political process. we wrote to both belligerents. we wrote to the leader of the saf, the sudanese armed forces, and the leader of rsf, the rapid support forces. general hemedti responded — and we thank him for that — quickly. we met him at the beginning of this year and we were able to go through a very lengthy discussion process that addressed the challenges

of the war. and at the end of it, we agreed on what we called and what we issued as addis declaration. it has three components. number one... can i — before i come to the components — sorry, abdalla hamdok, tojump in here. yes. my question to you was in holding the talks with hemedti, who had conducted a tour of various capitals in africa, it was seen as trying to bolster his position. do you not think that in meeting him and signing this agreement that you were contributing to his legitimacy at the expense of the sudan armed forces and al—burhan, who was very angry about all of this? let me be very clear here — from october, 25th of october, 2021, there is no legitimacy in sudan. but, as i said, we wrote to both generals — we wrote to burhan and

we wrote to hemedti. and i still think — we hope that burhan will be able to respond to our call and meet him because our intention is we need to go through a negotiated political process... when will you meet al—burhan? ..that will allow us to restore the transition. 0k. when will you meet al—burhan? and would you be prepared to go to port sudan, where he is based? i really hope we can meet him. we were hoping to meet him yesterday. it's an urgent need because we can only put an end to this war by talking to the two warring parties. and so, when will you meet him? and we hope and are still waiting for his response to our request. has he agreed, in principle, to meet you and you're just waiting to sort out the date? yes, he did. he agreed in principle. he wrote to us. it said, in principle,

he will meet us, and we are hoping to be able to sort the date that we will meet him sooner, rather than later. we need to do this in the interest of our people. we need to put an end to the suffering of our people, who are suffering every day. well, you talk about the suffering... they don't deserve this. of course not. but you talk about the suffering. 0ne former diplomat who has stayed in khartoum throughout the entire war — who, for reasons of safety, cannot be named, whom i've contacted — says the situation in khartoum, the capital, is "indescribable". "it is hellish. "the people who oppose both warring sides are "the silent majority. "what they are offered now is the choice between two "culprits who are against civilian leadership." so, in a sense, it's a plague on both their houses. people don't want either al—burhan and the sudan armed forces, nor the rsf and hemedti, and you're talking to both. yeah, we are talking

to both, so that these are the people who are carrying the arms. we have no illusions that we can stop this war without talking to them. but we also have a very clear understanding that we need to get to the end of the role of the military in the politics in sudan. out of our 70 years — close to 70 years of independence, more than 60 years, we were under military rule. it did not serve us anywhere. i think this war, if it could have any benefit that could come out of it is allow us the opportunity to be able to fix the ills of the country, and for good. let us make this the last war in our country, and that is possible. you know, crises come with opportunities. if we address them well, we can come up with an outcome that will be in the interest of the majority of our people. but, you know, a lot of people, abdalla hamdok, are not happy

about the conversation with the military for the reasons i just outlined from that person who remains anonymous. in fact, one of the civilian groups, the 0mdurman resistance committee, has issued a statement on the 19th ofjanuary on its facebook page that it had withdrawn from your taqaddum initiative. so, are you not in danger of losing key civilian support by pursuing the track that you are? we are not pursuing the track that prevailed after the revolution in 2019. what we are pursuing today is a process that would lead us to end the war. and i think we have been saying time and again there is no military solution to this. the solution to this must be through a civilian process that would allow what we call holding a national convention that will be broad, representative, inclusive

and will have the opportunity to address the ills of the country. here, i'm thinking of an example of the national convention that happened in south africa after the end of the apartheid, bringing everybody — with probably a few exclusions, the former regime operatives who have destroyed the country for over 30 years. but i think we as sudanese, and particularly under the leadership of the civilians, we will be able to fix this. all right. so, i want to just tell you some analysis by washington institute this month says this — "the civil force represented "by taqaddum" — your initiative — "considers the rsf their best "ally, preferring it to the sudanese army, "which is considered untrustworthy and infiltrated "by a group of islamists." is that the case, that you have

thrown in your lot with hemedti — who, of course, enjoys widespread support within, you know, countries like the emirates, where you're based, and elsewhere? is that the case? and does this mean that the rsf have effectively won the war over the sudan armed forces and al—burhan? i told you in the beginning of this conversation, zeinab, that there is no military solution to this. we have to go through the political process. our aim in taqaddum is to stop this war, and we will be able and willing to talk to whoever is willing to stop this war today. our major and final and important and vital interest is to stop the suffering of our people. this is where we are heading and that is why we are able to talk to the two parties and we will continue doing that. we are not going to be deterred from this because our ultimate

aim is for this war to stop, and stop today. 0k. does there have to be a victor in this war or do you believe that there is a compromise which will satisfy both of the warring sides? there is no victor in this war. you cannot even — even if assuming one party has won this war, you can't claim victory over the corpse of your own people and the destruction of property and everything. i think the loser in all this is our people. so, let us cut our losses and get to the point where we can stop this war. all right. i want to tell you what — you're talking about the suffering of the people and as we know, as you say, a conservative estimate is 13,000 have died. the chief prosecutor of the icc, the international criminal court, karim khan, has said this week that he has grounds to believe that crimes under the rome statute,

like crimes against humanity, are being committed by both sides in darfur, western sudan, and that the situation is reaching breaking point. do you believe that justice will ever be seen for the victims in darfur, but also elsewhere in the country, where there's been widespread looting, rapes and intimidation and all the rest of it? i fully agree with karim khan that crimes, atrocities has been committed in darfur, in the rest of sudan, and i think impunity of the perpetrators cannot be tolerated. those who committed these crimes have to be brought to book, must be held accountable, and i think we have to go through a process where justice

has to be served to the utmost satisfaction of the victims and their families. and that is the only assured way of putting an end to these violations. ok, but how far is that possible when we now hear reliable reports that former operatives and key figures in the previous regime under 0mar al—bashir are at large in sudan, are regrouping and, in fact, have a lot of influence, as the washington institute said, within the sudan armed forces? well, this is one part of the destruction of this war. you know, during the transition, we had a process of we having been engaging the icc. we started the process of addressing the issue of the crimes in darfur and all that, but the war stopped all this. and now, as you rightly put it, the criminals are at large.

we hope one of the conditions of ending this war is to open those files and bring those who committed those crimes to book. when i last spoke to you, abdalla hamdok, in august 2020, when you were prime minister, you said this to me — "the relationship between the civilian and military "is working well and, by and large, we are making "headway and are working within that partnership "in an excellent fashion." with the benefit of hindsight, how did you get it so wrong? well, i — i can say that this whole issue of the role of the military in politics, whether in sudan or elsewhere in the continent of africa or in the global south, is an issue we need to revisit. i think this was not preferred,

or an option that the country should really revisit, this idea of a partnership between military and civilians to bring democracy. i guess this war should allow us an opportunity to be able to define clearly the role of the military, which is — should be — protecting the constitution and the country. they have no business in getting involved in politics or economics, and i hope this war will help us to fix that. i mean, do you wish you had said that then? because i should just recap — of course, you became prime minister in august 2019 and then, in october 2021, there was a coup. you were detained and removed from power and then you went back into position a month later. and then, street protests objecting to this in early 2022

meant that you then felt that you had to step down and many people felt betrayed by you. when you look back on these events now, would you have done something differently? look, i have no regrets in going into this whole transition. i heeded the national call after the great revolution and i think our track record speaks to itself, whether it is solving the issue of the isolation of sudan, addressing the economic problems, and even making headways in the peace process and all that. we were fighting against extremely serious challenges of the legacy of 30 years of destruction. i made it very clear when i took office that i knew so well the magnitude of the challenges.

but i also said it very clear... yep. ..that i have no personal interest in this, and the day ifeel that i cannot do myjob orfulfil the promises i made to my people, i will step down. and i made that very clear, and i resigned. i left. all right. the sudanese businessman and philanthropist mo ibrahim has said this — "the fragmentation of the civilian "democratic forces after the revolution enabled the coup "and the subsequent military confrontation." civilians — and that includes you as the civilian prime minister at the time — you must surely accept responsibility for your failures, and do you feel you ought to apologise for those failures? well, look, it was an experiment. we went into it with absolutely good intentions, and we had nothing but the interest of our people.

in the process, we made mistakes. of course, we can apologise for those. we made huge successes. but i think the most important thing here is the lesson learned from that. 0k, what is the mistake? what is the mistake that you made, do you think? because you failed to keep the civilian forces together, as mo ibrahim said. briefly on that. well, it's not an individual responsibility, zeinab. this is — and by the way, this is not unique to sudan. the idea of a broad coalition toppling dictatorship happened in many places in africa. the arab spring was an example for that. but there are so many lessons from these issues of not only fragmentation but flat structures as opposed to a hierarchical structure that would lead the change and all that. in our own experiment of sudan, there are unique things that related to the change. every time we topple a dictatorship, we resort back

to the westminster model of two centres of government... yeah. ..with — there are so many issues and lessons that can be learnt from this. this was only 2.5 years. all right. briefly and finally, putting the past behind us, looking forward, how do you see the blueprint for sudan? i think we entreat them and hoping that extending the hand to many of our allies and people that — this is outside khartoum — we hope to be able to have a road map that i can see has two components. the first one is the map itself. we need to support the current mediation effort, which we hope to bearfruits, reach cessation of hostility, stopping the war and then, go to a national convention

that, at the end of it, should define a transitional constitution and maybe address the issue of structures of transition. that, coupled with what i could call a declaration of principle, which will address issues of the one army, address the root causes of the conflict, addressing the transitional justice, serious issues of religious and state identity politics, equal citizenship rights and all that, and a democratic dispensation. this is how i see. all right. abdalla hamdok in abu dhabi, thank you very much indeed for coming on hardtalk. thank you.

hello. there is a change on the way. this week we will see colder weather pushing down from the north, but that change to colder conditions will not be quick. and it won't be straightforward either. as that cold air pushes erratically southwards we will see some rain — some of us may well see some snow. at the moment, most places are in this mild air, cold air across the north of scotland and along the boundary between these two air masses where we have a weather fronts. where we have a weather front. and this will continue to bring some heavy and persistent rain across the north and the west of scotland. the met office still has this yellow warning in force. by the time all is said and done, we may well have seen up to 170 millimetres of rain falling in the wettest locations, some snow mixing in on the northern edge of our weather front as it engages some colder air. to the south of our weather front, well, extensive cloud cover, some mist and murk, some spots of rain and drizzle, particularly for western coast and hills. again, it will be breezy, but miles, 12—13 degrees, but mild, 12—13 degrees,

cold in northern scotland, just three there in lerwick. now, as we move through monday night, eventually that front will get a kick southwards. so that rain pushing southwards across scotland into northern ireland and northern england. some wintry showers following into northern scotland. temperatures here will drop close to freezing. further south, exceptionally mild to start tuesday morning to the south of our wriggling weather front. that front will be slicing the country in two, really. on tuesday, some rain across parts of northern ireland, the far south of scotland, into northern england, north wales. we may see something wintry mixing in over higher ground as that colder air digs in from the north. certainly some snow in the showers even to quite low levels across parts of scotland. still for the time being, very mild in the south, highs of 1a degrees. but that weather front looks like it will clear southwards into wednesday may be lingering across the channel islands, but elsewhere some spells of sunshine, some wintry showers across the northern half of the uk and temperatures lower for just about all of us. and then as we get into thursday, a lot of uncertainty about this

aspect of the forecast. low pressure expected to spin in from the south—west. as this front pushes northwards into the cold air, it may be that some of us see some quite significant snow, a lot of uncertainty about exactly where that might happen. it's likely to stay mild in the south, colder in the north.

welcome to newsday, reporting live from singapore, i'm steve lai. the headlines... the united states is air strikes against earning sides of the middle east have been effective but insist more acts are needed. as pakistan appears to go to the poll this week opposition parties turn to technology to get their message out to the voters. music and we report on the build up to the grammy awards set to be dominated this year by female artists.

the us says there will be more attacks against houthi forces