now, that is a matchup that many americans have little enthusiasm for. but what is the alternative? well, my guest today wants to be that alternative. cornel west is a writer, an academic, a civil rights and an anti—war activist. he's launched his own bid for the presidency, and while he's unlikely to win, could it be that his presence will tip the balance in a tight race? cornel west, welcome to hardtalk. well, thank you so very much, and it's always a blessing to be in conversation with you, my brother. well, it is great to talk to you.

now, america, and the world, they know you as a philosopher, an academic, a writer, a civil rights activist, but right now, you are running to be president of the united states of america. why should americans take your presidential bid seriously? well, you know, my calling is still the same, though, which is trying to tell the truth. the condition of truth is to allow suffering to speak. so i'm trying to be true to the suffering and resilience of poor and working people of all colours, and to seek justice to make sure that everyone is treated fairly and justly. but keep in mind, my brother, that my campaign is just a moment in a movement. it's just a wave in an ocean of a great tradition of a black people who produce love warriors in the face of hatred, and freedom fighters in the face of terror. and it's the spillover of that rich tradition into american electoral politics. electoral politics has been so much legalised bribery

and normalised corruption, it's a decadent terrain. let's just be very honest about... colonised by big money, big lobbies, benefactors, donors and so forth. unlike england, we don't have campaign financing. no, but if you move on to finance, there is a mechanics to running for president. yes. it takes an awful lot of money. that's true. it takes machinery, an organisation. i'm looking at you today and thinking... ..you have none of that. oh, no. i don't have the big money. we got organised people, big spirit, tenacity, courage, vision. that's what we have. that's a lot, but you still oftentimes feel as if you're financially broke, broke as the ten commandments, financially, but rich in vision and struggle and courage. so where do you think you can mine support and votes across this great big nation? well, the american empire,

we've got roughly nearly 40% of our fellow citizens do not vote at all. 38.5%. i've got significant focus on that particular slice of americans. and when you really look at... they're disproportionately poor and working class... right, but with respect... they've given up. ..most of that 40% have no interest in politics, and i dare say, have no idea that you're running for president. well, no, i've gone to it. i've been at it now for eight months. i've gone to a lot of different places with people who haven't been registered, being registered now. and as you know, we've already got alaska, we've got oregon, we've got a number of states lined up. yeah, well, there's 50 states in the union... i know. ..and you're only on the ballot in two right now. we got...we got...we got two, and we got nebraska in the making, we've got south carolina in the making. we should be on about 15 because it's low—hanging fruit. part of the process is, you can't even begin to collect your signatures until february, march and april. so we should be on the ballot in about 30 by the summer, and maybe 40—something by the end of the summer. so we're...we're on the move.

we're going to surprise a lot of people, my brother. i mean, the received wisdom about us politics is that first and foremost, elections are fought and won on the economy, on the so—called pocketbook issues. but i've been looking at your pronouncements in recent weeks on the campaign trail, if i can put it that way, and much of your focus is actually on international affairs. particularly right now, a focus on your deep disquiet over what the us government is doing in terms of supporting israel in its military campaign in gaza. do you honestly think that is an issue upon which americans are going to decide their vote? well, the american people are very heterogeneous people. a lot of different voices, a lot of different focuses. for me, it's a matter of trying to speak with honesty, integrity, trying to be morally consistent, because we've got a political system that is so shot through with rot, as it were. it's very shakespearean, "something's rotten in denmark."

something's deeply rotten in washington. so to try to raise the level and say, "yes, when we talk about gaza, we want to be morally consistent." we're against any form of genocide, any form of ethnic cleansing, any form of apartheid. when we talk about america, and i'm an abolitionist, about poverty, just like martin king, right? i want to do away with poverty. i want to do away with homelessness and unhousedness, the inability of working people to actually live day to day with dignity. 62% of americans live pay cheque to pay cheque. three individuals have wealth equivalent to 160 million fellow citizens? that's a grotesque wealth inequality, that's beyond description. well, those statistics you've just given me on what's happening in this country, and the inequalities that are evident in this country, brings me back to the question, is your current focus on israel, on gaza, going to yield votes? and if it is, who are you really pitching this at? are you thinking that this is perhaps an issue which some

of the polling suggests is of great interest to young americans right now? there are also particular ethnic groups in this country, i'm thinking of arab—americans, who, again, according to the polls, are deeply unhappy with the policies of president biden. is that where you're looking? you're absolutely right in terms of those persons who are deeply upset, notjust with trump, but biden. we've got an abandoned biden movement among many arab and muslim communities because of biden�*s enabling of genocide there in gaza. but for me... i mean, i really need to hold you to account for all the words you use. absolutely. you just said biden�*s an enabler of genocide. 0h, absolutely. of course... ..of course he would refute that... 0h, exactly. ..just as the israelis absolutely refute, with outrage, the whole concept of genocide. that's true. but more than that... but i'm not more relative, and somebody�*s right and somebody�*s wrong about this thing, right?

and we had to make a choice in that regard. when war crimes are committed, i don't care who commits them, american army commit war crimes, the british troops can commit war crimes, hamas can commit war crimes, the israeli defense forces can. a war crime is a war crime. and when it moves toward crimes of humanity and genocide, human beings are suffering and you have to speak honestly. and it's not a question ofjust speaking to one constituency. you see, i'm not a machiavellian politician obsessed with just interest groups. i'm concerned with vision, i'm concerned with morality, i'm concerned with political courage. this is statesmanship, this is not garden—variety political calculation, you see? and so when it comes to that, we'd have to debate. it'd be interesting to have a debate with biden, "let me tell you why i think you are a war criminal. i'm not talking about you out of your name. you are enabling these kinds of actions." he said it about iran, "iran supplies these various proxies. they're responsible." united states supplies, uk supplies israel defense forces, and it generates this kind of suffering, they have to be responsible. but we have to make sure

we don't fall in any pits of anti—jewish hatred or anti—iranian hatred or anti—american hatred. i am a revolutionary christian running for politics. does it bother you that many jewish groups in this country, when they hear the word "genocide" thrown at the government of israel, they do believe there's an undercurrent of anti—semitism to that? well, i fight any current of anti—jewish hatred, just like i fight any current of anti—white hatred, anti—black hatred, anti—irish hatred or anything else. but when they throw the term around in such a way that they think that they don't have to provide an argument or overlook the evidence or deny the indescribable suffering of our palestinian brothers and sisters, i say, "oh, i'm looking at the world through a different set of lens." i'm not tribalistic. i'm not a chauvinist. at the very beginning, i called you a long—time civil rights activist, and it's true, your struggle goes way back. i just wonder if you recognise that something interesting is happening in the black community across this

nation right now. if you look at the polling evidence — while the democratic party has had a lock on black voters going back years, you can look at clinton's 90% rating among... that's right. ..black voters, you can then look at how obama did, you can look even at how biden did in 2020, 90% support amongst black voters. this time around, there is evidence that black vote is going to be less monolithic. trump is claiming he's got 20 to 25% support amongst black voters. do you see signs that there is a shift? well, certainly, any moment of spiritual decay and moral decadence in an empire affects every people in that empire — black, white, red, indigenous or whatever. and by decadence and decay, what i mean is begin to identify with gangster—like characters who believe they can say and do anything

and get away with it with no accountability. and you notice when you look at the black, that is more among the black brothers than the black sisters, because the black brothers... there's a slice of them who look at trump and see hyper—masculinity, persecuted, saying anything he wants and still have big money and big cars. hm. well, see, those are subthemes in the culture of america. it could be in hip—hop, it could be wall street. that's an american reality, it affects everybody. the good news, though, is that there's also a renaissance taking place among. ..especially the younger generation, among young black folk responding to the george floyd. . . 0r among the young jewish youth. i mean, the young jewish people who are critical of what i'm calling the genocide. in the name of what? not tribalism. morality, integrity. we have to continually come back to find a place for morality in a moment of overwhelming barbarity, because that's the kind

of world we're living in. and we see the fascism on the move everywhere, latin america, africa, middle east... ..united states... let's just... ..sweden, hungary, we can go on and on. let's just get back to the... ..to the raw mechanics of a presidential run, cos last year you decided you were going to run... that's right. ..for the white house. if i just look at what has happened since then, it looks like chaos. you've been through three party affiliations. you started out representing the people's party, then you decided you were going to have the green nomination for president, the green party, then you abandon that, now you've set up a new party, justice for all, which you say is going to have a nomination process and you are going to lead that party into the election. you've said, "you know what, don't expect me to be predictable. politics is like jazz." that's right. but that isn't really the way it works, is it? well, if you're part of the establishment, you're liable to be a little bit more consistent

because you have millions and millions of dollars coming at you, with experts who are eager to become part of yourcampaign. when you're an independentjazz man like me, those are first takes, second takes, just like in the studio, because it's something new. but the consistency is same calling, same vision, and looking for ways, in an improvisational, flexible, protean way... well... ..looking for ways to notjust survive, but thrive. we are thriving now! we're thriving now, my brother! well, yeah, but you talk about consistency. where's the consistency in a guy who famously said, "you're more likely to find me in a crack house than the white house," now saying you actually have an ambition to be in that white house? oh, no... you've always dissed it as a seat of corruption. yes, it is a seat of corruption. see, the consistency is, in the crack house, you'll find some precious human beings who are addicted to something over which they have no control. in the white house, you'll have deep corruption tied to money, and it's still there. and my attempt is to make

it to the white house, call into question that corruption and be head of an empire to do what? dismantle it. 800 military units around the world, 130 special operations in countries. america doesn't need to be an empire, we need to be a nation among nations, dignified nation among nations. so you're right. that's the consistency for me. but. . . but let's get real, professor west. yes, yes. no, but i'm real! iam! i'm real, man! 0k. if you're going to be real with me, would you admit that, whatever your ambitions, the likelihood is that the race for the white house is going to be trump versus biden... not sure. ..and that third—party candidates, such as yourself, are not going to get beyond the single digits in terms of how you perform? so the reality is that the impact you may have on the race will not be to be a potential winner of that race, but you could be a determinant between trump and biden because of the votes you take away from one of those two. you're, if i may say so,

as a leftist, much more likely to take votes from biden. the pollsterjohn zogby says, " every vote west gets is a threat tojoe biden." do you acknowledge that is the reality? no, that's not. there's a number of conservatives who come up to me, you saw the piece in newsweek, the conservative case for west, there's a number of conservatives coming to me and saying, "we like your vision and integrity, we disagree with your policy. we can't vote for either one, so we're thinking seriously of voting for you." but keep in mind, biden has to make his case. if he doesn't make the case, he doesn't own votes, he's got to earn those votes. trump has to make his case. but most importantly for me, the point is, i'm not even sure if biden is going to end up being the candidate. i think he's going to have an lbj moment and pull out. he's running out of gas. and for all we know, trump might be on his way to jail, and both parties will have to move to their b teams. we're in real time, things are fluctuating. right, but the impact on the race, as a republican—democrat race, of a cornel west candidacy remains the same.

i just wonder whether you ever listen to your friends. 0h, ido. let me quote to you one friend, one friend of yours, an adviser of yours, a guy you've been close to, bernie sanders. oh, i love brother bernie, but he could be wrong, but tell me what he said. brother bernie said this, he said, "i disagree with my good friend cornel west. we are living in really difficult times when there is a real question whether democracy itself is going to remain in the us. "i think," says brother bernie, "we've got to bring the entire progressive community to defeat trump and support biden." 0h, as i said, i love my dear brother, that's a plausible argument, it's in no way persuasive to me, i think he's wrong about that. i think he's wrong about that. i do not think, in fact, that a weak, milquetoast, neo—liberal president like biden, who engages in militaristic... ..militaristic policy abroad... ..is going to be a defender of democracy in the way in which he thinks.

he's certainly not going to redeem the soul of the nation. you don't redeem the soul of a nation by enabling genocide. and, you know, that is the theme of martin luther king jr, when he founded his organisation, southern christian leadership conference, what was it? to redeem the soul of a nation. well, you see, that's my tradition, that's the legacy of martin. to use the same language of martin and then steal to engage in that kind of barbaric activity, and not just in the middle east, but even in his ties to wall street... you keep bringing it back to the middle east... no, notjust the middle east, we're talking about poor working people in america too. i'm rather keen to talk about america. i'm looking at things that biden prioritises, abortion and a woman's right to choose... that's a positive thing. ..fighting republican plans to cut welfare and health care, union rights. now, these are all... well, he crushed the railway workers�* strike. ..issues and principles which you care about too. yes. if you shaved a few tens of thousands of votes from biden in a state like michigan, which

is entirely possible, particularly given that michigan is a state where arab—americans have a significant vote. and as we've discussed, they're not happy with biden�*s israel policy. if you were to do that, if you were, in essence, to deliver a state like michigan to trump, how would you feel if you became trump's victory enabler? again, you see that if voters make their choices, whether i'm in the race or not, they make the choice based on the case that has been made by whoever�*s running — biden, trump or what have you. it's not a question of... but you're avoiding my question. get inside your own feelings for a moment. no, because i refuse to view myselfjust as a parasite on somebody else�*s host or an afterthought. i have my own views, my visions, my practice, my witness, and i pursue it. if that is viewed solely through the lens of whether i'm helping or hurting somebody else, that's already

viewing myself as so marginal an afterthought. no, not at all. these are harsh words, but i'm going to put them to you. sure. the new republic magazine broadly... highly suspect, but go right ahead. ...broadly. .. they've been attacking me for a0 years. ..liberal magazine. that's the magazine that said i've never written one sentence that's worth reading. now, you think that's serious? stephen laughs. do you agree with that? well, that's certainly... that's not friendly. that's ridiculous. but when it comes to... that's the new republic but go right ahead. ..your argument that you refuse to indulge in hypotheticals about whether you could enable a trump presidency, they say, "only a narcissist and a charlatan would behave like cornel west." it's just ridiculous. that's ridiculous. i don't even take that seriously. seriously, though, all of us have narcissistic proclivities. i'm a christian. i realise the way in which greed and hatred has shot through every human soul. i understand that. but for them to say something like that is nothing but a rationalisation. it hides and conceals their own allegiance to wall street,

their own allegiance to enabling the genocide in the middle east, their own allegiance to not speaking to the issues of the poverty, their own volition, not saying a mumbling word about mass incarceration. so i can't take that seriously, though, brother. that's like somebody saying to you, after all of your wonderful years as a high quality conversationalist, "oh, really? he's nothing butjust a narcissist who likes to sit there with his red tie." no, i defend you. we talk about that brother like that. that's ridiculous. well, that's even beneath comment, you know what i mean? yeah, well... let's be honest about it. i appreciate that defence. let me ask you a broader question about what is going on in america's culture right now. let's start with political culture. right. basic question, why is america looking more and more like a gerontocracy with a choice between biden, who's 81, trump, who i believe is 77, with other key political figures like mitch mcconnell, leader of republicans in the senate, who is, let me check my notes here, he's about to be 82. nancy pelosi, who i spoke to

the other day, she was leader of the democrats in the house. she's 83. why is america not capable of finding leaders who are not old? it's a wonderful question, but it reminds me of the roman empire, military overreach, corruption of elites, helplessness of citizenry, and an oligarchy that makes it difficult for young, fresh voices to be heard to both parties that are captive to wall street and pentagon. if your analysis is right and if the power structures in the united states of america are so stark, then what, with all of your experience, is, in your view, the best way to deliver change in this country? you have been an activist for decades, and in recent times you've watched 0ccupy wall street, you've watched the metoo movement, you've watched black lives matter all try to get change through activism on the streets. does it work?

well, you have to bring power and pressure to bear outside of the system to create space inside of the system, to create the fundamental transformation you need in the name of poor and working people of all colours, notjust here, but around the world. it always looked... you remember margaret thatcher talked about tina, there is no alternative. tell the people there's only two parties. there's no alternative from wall street. to pentagon. there's no alternative to silicon valley. no. there's a lot of precious human beings down there who are poor and working class, who are doing magnificent things and they're feeling helpless and helpless, sometimes they follow neo—fascist pied pipers like trump, and sometimes they actually become resigned and say, "all we can do is vote for biden." well, the history of the american empire is one of spiritual awakenings, moral awakenings, political courage on the street, and then brought to bear, such as to create space within a system that seems to be so tight, so moribund, so corrupt. and you should...

we should never lose hope. i'm no optimist at all. i've been a black man in america for 70 years. i'm not an optimist whatsoever. i'm a prisoner of hope. i come from a people who've been enslaved for 244 years on this land and another 100 years of neo—slavery and jim crow. and yet what? here comes a style, a smile. here comes tremendous energy in telling the truth and seeking justice, and then letting the bodies be the...enjoy the culinary delight of our bodies. yeah, well, i mean, that... and we keep tradition going. and that's all extraordinary rhetoric. but i'm not sure i'm any clearer about whether you believe that, ultimately, america will change in a way you want it to change, through street activism, through civil disobedience, or will it change because there are some politicians who will achieve power who are genuine in their desire for real, radical reform in this country? oh, it's always both, my brother. it's always both. i'm going to end with this.

i know you'll think this is an unfair premise, but you are in all likelihood not going to be the next president of the united states. could be, could be. how worried are you about what the next ten months could deliver in this country? when i look at trump, i see civil war number two. when i look at biden, i see world war number three. that's pharaoh on both sides of the bloody red seas. that's the history of me and my people. look at the red sea. you see pharaoh everywhere. but what do you do? here comes daniel. here comes david. marginalised, still trying to hold on to truth and justice and integrity and honesty, even when it looks as if the second civil war is increasing and the world war iii is beginning. you don't cave in. you don't sell out.

how else to live? cornel west, i'm going to have to stop you there, but i thank you so much forjoining me today. thank you. hello there. sunday was a drier day for many of us, but we've still got a number of flood warnings on rivers in scotland and england together with saturated ground. and there's more rain to come over the week ahead. but we start the week with a mixture of sunshine and showers and we've got some showers around at the moment. they're moving their way eastwards, particularly around that area of low pressure, some heavier ones in the north. and it's colder air that we're seeing, so temperatures are close to freezing in quite a number of places. the heavier showers to begin with in scotland and northern england, one or two further

south but they're fading away in the morning, moving out of the way, and then it gets dry for a while with some sunshine. but then the showers return and they're focused across northern ireland and western scotland with some snow over the higher parts of scotland, stronger winds here, the odd shower possible for western parts of england and wales, but many places will be dry with some sunshine, and seven to ten degrees. that's near normal, really, for this time of the year. showers will continue on monday night, close to that low in the north. and if we look to the southwest for shrove tuesday, this is where the next change in the weather is going to come from. heading into tuesday, though, those heavier showers continue in scotland, particularly in the north. some sunshine, but perhaps only briefly because the cloud is going to increase quickly. and with that weather front coming in, we've got these outbreaks of rain and drizzle moving into england and wales, perhaps towards northern ireland as well. but if anything, temperatures could be a little bit higher on tuesday, so around nine to 11 degrees. but there are higher temperatures to come by the middle part of the week. now, this weather front coming in from the southwest heads northwards, takes rain northwards overnight

and into wednesday. and then following on from that, we trace the winds all the way back down to the south, drawing in some mild air, some higher temperatures, but bringing in a lot of cloud. and we've got showers or longer spells of rain. so wetter weather through northern ireland and scotland, some wetter weather in southern parts of england and wales. and whilst there may be a bit of sunshine in other areas, we're going to see some showers. so rain's never too far away, but those temperatures are continuing to rise. could make 13 degrees in belfast on wednesday and 1a in norwich. very mild for this time of the year. we start the week on a chillier note, though, with some sunshine but also some showers. and then from the middle part of the week, we see thicker cloud, outbreaks of rain and those temperatures will be rising.

live from london, this is bbc news. the israeli military says they have released two hostages held by hamas. this comes after heavy strikes are reported in the gazan southern city — crammed with more than a million displaced palestinians seeking refuge. the kenyan athlete and the men's world marathon record holder kelvin kiptum has been

killed in a car accident. the kansas city chiefs win the super bowl, after beating the san francisco 49ers by three points. and ivory coast win the africa cup of nations after beating nigeria. hello, i'm lukwesa burak. the israeli military says it has rescued two of the hostages abducted by hamas during a raid in the gaza strip. their release from an apartment in rafah was announced shortly after israel carried out an intense aerial bombardment of the city. the two men — fernando marman and louis har, aged 60 and 70 —

are said to be in good condition.