in the position we if we can get in the position we have a grown—up conversation about this then that will go a long way and i think people will start engaging with politics again. how big a claim have you got before the national general election? if is the national general election? it is a hue the national general election? it is a huge amount _ the national general election? if 3 a huge amount to climb, the national general election? if 2 a huge amount to climb, especially in wellingborough, after last night's results. i would like to offer my congratulations tojen on her victory, she ran a very effective campaign, but we will hold her to account any promises she has made during her campaign. thank you for 'oinin~ made during her campaign. thank you forioining us- — the victor in that seat — and labour's newest mp — is gen kitchen. here's a little of what she said in her victory speech. iam i am delighted to be stood here as the newly elected labour mp for wellingborough. cheering and applause i am honoured that local people have

placed their trust in me and the labour party under keir starmer. but i also know from the thousands of conversations i have had during this campaign how desperately people want change and a fresh start for our country. the people of wellingborough have spoken for britain. this is a stunning victory for the labour party and must sent a message from northamptonshire to downing street. i ran a positive campaign built on both the local issues that people told me needed addressing here, as well as the national desire for change. people here are patriotic and hopeful for a country, and they care about our community. but they know that our roads are not fit to drive on, getting your child a doctor's appointment can seem impossible, and that they are paying more and getting less. today, they said enough is enough. applause just a reminder that you can find all the latest updates

and information. on the bbc news live blog — we'll be updating across the day as reaction comes in and you can also check out anaylsis from bbc correspondents and experts. now lets n ow lets get now lets get more reaction from voters and analysis. we can go to nicky campbell. welcome if you're watching on the television. the channeljoins us, this is bbc radio 5 live. we are having a lively discussion about the by—elections last night. startling victories for labour, a poor night for the conservatives. we have the rise and inexorable rise of the leader of reform party, snapping at

the heels of the conservatives. jacob rees—mogg has said, there is a lot of common ground between our parties, but if the conservatives move too far in that direction, what about people on the other wing of the party? we are getting reactions from you, you can get in touch. we read all the texts. a really bad night for rishi sunak, a good night for keir starmer, but how much enthusiasm is there for him? is it a vote against the tories, is it a vote against the tories, is it a vote for labour? the analysts are putting all those question marks into play, so get into touch and see what you have to say. let's see what paul and wellingborough has to say, and john in kingswood. paul, good morning to you. what is the message of the by—election? that is our overarching question this morning. i think it is obvious, the conservatives have just thrown...

labour have not won, the conservatives have done this way. that happened weeks ago, when they chose helen to be the candidate. she is a very credible candidate in her own right, but she was all was going to be tainted by the story that comes with her. you would argue it is bad judgment from the tories weeks ago when they chose the candidate. then you look at the way the by—election has been run. you know, we have had pretty much the whole shadow cabinet to wellingborough over the last four weeks, culminating in keir starmer seen drinking a pint at a local non—league football club. four weeks ago he had not even heard of rushton, never mind was planning to visit. i think the labour party have thrown everything at this, but the conservatives were never going to win because they capitulated when they chose the wrong candidate. haw they chose the wrong candidate. how did ou they chose the wrong candidate. how did you vote? — they chose the wrong candidate. how did you vote? labour, _ they chose the wrong candidate. how did you vote? labour, first _ they chose the wrong candidate. how did you vote? labour, first time - they chose the wrong candidate. how did you vote? labour, first time in i did you vote? labour, first time in m life. did you vote? labour, first time in my life- 55 — did you vote? labour, first time in my life- 55 years _ did you vote? labour, first time in my life. 55 years old, _ did you vote? labour, first time in my life. 55 years old, first - did you vote? labour, first time in my life. 55 years old, first time . did you vote? labour, first time in my life. 55 years old, first time i l my life. 55 years old, first time i have ever voted labour. the choice

was not vote or to vote for labour for me. i am just apathetic with everything that is happening. as a business owner, i have got a gift shopin business owner, i have got a gift shop in wellingborough, and the business rate relief that we have enjoyed has been scrapped at the end of april, that is coming under the radar, nobody is talking about that, but we are in a recession now officially and we are scrapping business rate relief. everything is going against business right now and it isn't giving me any confidence that i am going to be retiring any time before i am 80. that that i am going to be retiring any time before i am 80.— that i am going to be retiring any time before i am 80. that is another 60 ears! time before i am 80. that is another 60 years! first _ time before i am 80. that is another 60 years! first time _ time before i am 80. that is another 60 years! first time ever— time before i am 80. that is another 60 years! first time ever labour. - time before i am 80. that is another 60 years! first time ever labour. i i 60 years! first time ever labour. i will bring in scarlett maguire in just a second. let's get a couple more voters, a couple more electors. johnin more voters, a couple more electors. john in kingswood, what are the messages from the by—elections for you? messages from the by-elections for ou? ., , ., , ., ,

you? the main problem for me is the ”ercentae you? the main problem for me is the percentage of — you? the main problem for me is the percentage of the _ you? the main problem for me is the percentage of the boat _ you? the main problem for me is the percentage of the boat that _ you? the main problem for me is the percentage of the boat that the - percentage of the boat that the reform — percentage of the boat that the reform party got. that is the big worry— reform party got. that is the big worry for— reform party got. that is the big worry for me. —— percentage of the vote _ worry for me. —— percentage of the vote it _ worry for me. —— percentage of the vote it is — worry for me. —— percentage of the vote it is like _ worry for me. —— percentage of the vote. it is like history repeating itsetf~ _ vote. it is like history repeating itself. they are just a one trick pony, — itself. they are just a one trick pony, anti—immigration. itself. they are just a one trick pony, anti-immigration. mostly was a fascist... pony, anti-immigration. mostly was a fascist. . . allow _ pony, anti-immigration. mostly was a fascist... allow people _ pony, anti-immigration. mostly was a fascist... allow people in _ pony, anti-immigration. mostly was a fascist... allow people in from - fascist... allow people in from australia and _ fascist... allow people in from australia and america, - fascist... allow people in from australia and america, new i fascist... allow people in from - australia and america, new zealand and canada — australia and america, new zealand and canada because they are white, you know? — and canada because they are white, you know? it isjust catering to the racist _ you know? it isjust catering to the racist mass. — you know? it isjust catering to the racist mass, which is what brexit was all— racist mass, which is what brexit was all about anyway. it was just a vote try— was all about anyway. it was just a vote by the — was all about anyway. it was just a vote by the racist people, really. we all— vote by the racist people, really. we all know that we are paying the price for— we all know that we are paying the price for it — we all know that we are paying the price for it now. that is what worries _ price for it now. that is what worries me.— price for it now. that is what| worries me._ i price for it now. that is what - worries me._ i am worries me. 0k, thank you. i am leased worries me. 0k, thank you. i am pleased that _ worries me. 0k, thank you. i am pleased that labour _ worries me. 0k, thank you. i am pleased that labour have - worries me. 0k, thank you. i am pleased that labour have won. . pleased that labour have won. kingswood has always been a seat that has _ kingswood has always been a seat that has either been tory or labour, ever since _ that has either been tory or labour, ever since it — that has either been tory or labour, ever since it was founded 50 years ago _ ever since it was founded 50 years ago but— ever since it was founded 50 years ago but in—

ever since it was founded 50 years ago. but in the other disappointing thing _ ago. but in the other disappointing thing is _ ago. but in the other disappointing thing is the fall in the liberal democrat share.— thing is the fall in the liberal democrat share. ~ . , , ., , thing is the fall in the liberal democrat share. a, , ., , ., democrat share. maybe there was a bit of tactical _ democrat share. maybe there was a bit of tactical voting. _ democrat share. maybe there was a bit of tactical voting. i _ democrat share. maybe there was a bit of tactical voting. i will— democrat share. maybe there was a bit of tactical voting. i will put - democrat share. maybe there was a bit of tactical voting. i will put a - bit of tactical voting. i will put a couple of those points to scarlett, political elector expert. john was throwing a few political hand grenades in there! comparisons to the black shirt to show fascist leader in the 1930s, to mark three. richard tice would be pretty furious about that, a lot of people would say that was unfair. although john has a view which others do share. that is the beauty of it. also to say that brexit was a racist enterprise, there will be lots of people who voted for brexit that will rail against that. also, if you say, people who vote for brexit, you're racist. that is one way to solidify support for brexit, isn't it? if solidify support for brexit, isn't it? y ., ~ solidify support for brexit, isn't it? , ., ~ ., solidify support for brexit, isn't it? y., ~ ., ., solidify support for brexit, isn't it? ~ ., ., , solidify support for brexit, isn't it? ~ ., , ., solidify support for brexit, isn't it? if you like that was a bit of a reminder of— it? if you like that was a bit of a reminder ofjust _ it? if you like that was a bit of a reminder ofjust how _ it? if you like that was a bit of a reminder ofjust how nasty - it? if you like that was a bit of a | reminder ofjust how nasty those brexit were scott at the time. both

sides escalated thanks. you, it is a bit of a stretch to call 52% of the country racist, but you know... aha, country racist, but you know... a little bit of a stretch? quite - country racist, but you know... a little bit of a stretch? quite a - country racist, but you know... a little bit of a stretch? quite a bit| little bit of a stretch? quite a bit of a stretch. _ little bit of a stretch? quite a bit of a stretch. mark, _ little bit of a stretch? quite a bit of a stretch. mark, what - little bit of a stretch? quite a bit of a stretch. mark, what do - little bit of a stretch? quite a bit of a stretch. mark, what do you | of a stretch. mark, what do you think? i was — of a stretch. mark, what do you think? i was going _ of a stretch. mark, what do you think? i was going to _ of a stretch. mark, what do you think? i was going to say, - of a stretch. mark, what do you - think? i was going to say, actually, that for me. _ think? i was going to say, actually, that for me. i— think? i was going to say, actually, that for me, i was _ think? i was going to say, actually, that for me, i was more _ think? i was going to say, actually, that for me, i was more interested| that for me, i was more interested in the _ that for me, i was more interested in the low— that for me, i was more interested in the low turnout. i work in the pulling — in the low turnout. i work in the pulling industry myself, but it was more _ pulling industry myself, but it was more about the fact there was a low turnout _ more about the fact there was a low turnout because i think there seems to he _ turnout because i think there seems to he a _ turnout because i think there seems to be a disillusionment with politicians, notjust in this country— politicians, notjust in this country but globally. people are 'ust country but globally. people are just reaching for easy answers like the populists, who do not have much to offer— the populists, who do not have much to offer apart from a bit of hot air, a — to offer apart from a bit of hot air, a hit— to offer apart from a bit of hot air, a bit like, dare i say, mr richard— air, a bit like, dare i say, mr richard tice. the person from kingswood was pretty much spot on, in terms _ kingswood was pretty much spot on, in terms of— kingswood was pretty much spot on, in terms of my findings, my experience of speaking to people in terms _ experience of speaking to people in terms of— experience of speaking to people in terms of their reasons. we do not want _ terms of their reasons. we do not want to— terms of their reasons. we do not want to revisit the whole brexit thing. — want to revisit the whole brexit thing, but xenophobia was a massive

thln- thing, but xenophobia was a massive thing behind that. i would say at least _ thing behind that. i would say at least three quarters of cases. i 'ust least three quarters of cases. i just really— least three quarters of cases. i just really wanted to mention the fact about the low turnout is a reflection _ fact about the low turnout is a reflection of disillusionment. i would — reflection of disillusionment. i would call it a pseudo— democracy myself— would call it a pseudo— democracy myself because people just do not seem _ myself because people just do not seem to _ myself because people just do not seem to get what they want. richard tice wants a — seem to get what they want. richard tice wants a pr. _ seem to get what they want. richard tice wants a pr. he _ seem to get what they want. richard tice wants a pr. he wants _ seem to get what they want. richard tice wants a pr. he wants pr. - seem to get what they want. richard tice wants a pr. he wants pr. as . tice wants a pr. he wants pr. as another person — tice wants a pr. he wants pr. as another person has _ tice wants a pr. he wants pr. as another person has had, - tice wants a pr. he wants pr. as another person has had, it - tice wants a pr. he wants pr. as another person has had, it is - tice wants a pr. he wants pr. as another person has had, it isjust| another person has had, it isjust how he _ another person has had, it isjust how he can — another person has had, it isjust how he can make a nuisance of himself— how he can make a nuisance of himself in_ how he can make a nuisance of himself in parliament. he has no chance _ himself in parliament. he has no chance of— himself in parliament. he has no chance of ever achieving power. there _ chance of ever achieving power. there we — chance of ever achieving power. there we are. we live in an increasingly politically polarised country. there was a couple of things there. thank you so much, mark. interesting talking to you again. there is such a polarised society, isn't there, in the political sphere and also elsewhere? fuelled by social media, but also

there is increasing... i was saying this earlier on, being a phone in host and having been a debate host for many years, i have never known a time where there has been such disengagement and disillusionment with politics. i wonder if a manifestation of that is the low turnout numbers last night. but it is a sticky time for politicians to actually inspire people because people are mightily annoyed. that is sot on. people are mightily annoyed. that is spot on- there _ people are mightily annoyed. that is spot on. there was _ people are mightily annoyed. that is spot on. there was lots _ people are mightily annoyed. that is spot on. there was lots of _ people are mightily annoyed. that is spot on. there was lots of stuff - people are mightily annoyed. that is spot on. there was lots of stuff in i spot on. there was lots of stuff in there, but the turnout point was interesting. we are used to by—elections having a lower turnout than the general elections. yesterday was pretty low. they are nowhere near record lows, it should be said. they were not high, and i completely agree with you, i do not do a phone in show, but i do do focus groups, it is remarkable how turned off people are. i do think last night was a resounding win for labour, they will be incredibly happy and they should be, but there

are some bigger questions that i think all politicians need to answer, which is this deficit of trust in politicians. people feel very fed up and they do not think that anyone in the main party is going to make anything much better. let's give you some news. rishi sunak has said the circumstances surrounding the wellingborough and kingswood by—elections were particularly challenging. there were particularly challenging. there were particular local issues in wellingborough, a controversy and allegation surrounding the former mp. rishi sunak city circumstances surrounding the by—elections were particularly challenging, and he says it shows the conservative party worked to do. some of you watching and listening might say that is quite an understatement, looking at the poll numbers. carol and northumberland and einar in glasgow, hello. carol, what is your takeaway? what is your takeaway from the

by—elections last night? aha, by—elections last night? a resounding victory for labour. i wonder— resounding victory for labour. i wonder if— resounding victory for labour. i wonder if people will vote reform in the general election or whether they will vote _ the general election or whether they will vote labourjust to get the tories — will vote labourjust to get the tories out. will vote labour 'ust to get the tones out._ will vote labour 'ust to get the tories out. . , ., , tories out. that is an interesting -hrase, tories out. that is an interesting phrase. iust _ tories out. that is an interesting phrase. just to _ tories out. that is an interesting phrase, just to get _ tories out. that is an interesting phrase, just to get the _ tories out. that is an interesting phrase, just to get the tories . tories out. that is an interesting l phrase, just to get the tories out. is there enthusiasm for keir starmer or more disillusionment with rishi sunak? i or more disillusionment with rishi sunak? ., , or more disillusionment with rishi sunak? ~' , ., sunak? i think he is getting a bad ress, sunak? i think he is getting a bad press. keir _ sunak? i think he is getting a bad press, keir starmer. _ sunak? i think he is getting a bad press, keir starmer. i— sunak? i think he is getting a bad press, keir starmer. i have - sunak? i think he is getting a bad press, keir starmer. i have got i sunak? i think he is getting a bad press, keir starmer. i have got a | press, keir starmer. i have got a friend _ press, keir starmer. i have got a friend who — press, keir starmer. i have got a friend who knows somebody in north london. _ friend who knows somebody in north london. and — friend who knows somebody in north london, and she said there is great enthusiasm — london, and she said there is great enthusiasm for keir starmer. i quite like him _ enthusiasm for keir starmer. i quite like him. ., enthusiasm for keir starmer. i quite like him._ morning. i enthusiasm for keir starmer. i quite | like him._ morning. my like him. there we are. morning. my oint like him. there we are. morning. my point was. — like him. there we are. morning. my point was. i— like him. there we are. morning. my point was. i am _ like him. there we are. morning. my point was, i am astounded _ like him. there we are. morning. my point was, i am astounded at - like him. there we are. morning. my point was, i am astounded at the - point was, i am astounded at the british— point was, i am astounded at the british people _ point was, i am astounded at the british people have _ point was, i am astounded at the british people have gone - point was, i am astounded at the british people have gone out- point was, i am astounded at the

british people have gone out andj british people have gone out and voted _ british people have gone out and voted for— british people have gone out and voted for labour. _ british people have gone out and voted for labour. as _ british people have gone out and voted for labour. as i— british people have gone out and voted for labour. as i said - british people have gone out and voted for labour. as i said to- british people have gone out andl voted for labour. as i said to your colleague — voted for labour. as i said to your colleague that _ voted for labour. as i said to your colleague that i _ voted for labour. as i said to your colleague that i spoke _ voted for labour. as i said to your colleague that i spoke to. - voted for labour. as i said to your colleague that i spoke to. this- voted for labour. as i said to your colleague that i spoke to. this is. voted for labour. as i said to your| colleague that i spoke to. this is a party, _ colleague that i spoke to. this is a party. when — colleague that i spoke to. this is a party. when they— colleague that i spoke to. this is a party, when they were _ colleague that i spoke to. this is a party, when they were last - colleague that i spoke to. this is a party, when they were last in - colleague that i spoke to. this is a i party, when they were last in power, they left _ party, when they were last in power, they left britain— party, when they were last in power, they left britain with _ party, when they were last in power, they left britain with hundred - party, when they were last in power, they left britain with hundred and . they left britain with hundred and 56 billion — they left britain with hundred and 56 billion deficit _ they left britain with hundred and 56 billion deficit and _ they left britain with hundred and 56 billion deficit and a _ they left britain with hundred and 56 billion deficit and a note - they left britain with hundred and 56 billion deficit and a note on . they left britain with hundred andl 56 billion deficit and a note on the table _ 56 billion deficit and a note on the table saying. _ 56 billion deficit and a note on the table saying, sorry, _ 56 billion deficit and a note on the table saying, sorry, there - 56 billion deficit and a note on the table saying, sorry, there is- 56 billion deficit and a note on the table saying, sorry, there is no. table saying, sorry, there is no money— table saying, sorry, there is no money left _ table saying, sorry, there is no money left. and _ table saying, sorry, there is no money left. and these - table saying, sorry, there is no money left. and these peoplel table saying, sorry, there is no- money left. and these people have .one money left. and these people have gone out — money left. and these people have gone out they— money left. and these people have gone out... they are _ money left. and these people have gone out... they are coming - money left. and these people have gone out... they are coming back. gone out... they are coming back from _ gone out... they are coming back from the — gone out... they are coming back from the tories... _ gone out... they are coming back from the tories... do— gone out... they are coming back from the tories... do you - gone out... they are coming back from the tories... do you think. gone out... they are coming back. from the tories... do you think they have _ from the tories... do you think they have changed? _ from the tories... do you think they have changed?— from the tories... do you think they have changed?_ well- from the tories... do you think they have changed?_ well they | have changed? yes, i do. well they do any better? _ have changed? yes, i do. well they do any better? not _ have changed? yes, i do. well they do any better? not at _ have changed? yes, i do. well they do any better? not at all. _ have changed? yes, i do. well they do any better? not at all. how - have changed? yes, i do. well they do any better? not at all. how are. do any better? not at all. how are the tories — do any better? not at all. how are the tories any _ do any better? not at all. how are the tories any better? _ do any better? not at all. how are the tories any better? we - do any better? not at all. how are the tories any better? we need i the tories any better? we need something _ the tories any better? we need something different, _ the tories any better? we need something different, my - the tories any better? we need something different, my dear. l the tories any better? we need i something different, my dear. we have to _ something different, my dear. we have to try— something different, my dear. we have to try something _ something different, my dear. we have to try something else. - something different, my dear. we have to try something else. we i something different, my dear. we i have to try something else. we know now he _ have to try something else. we know now be two _ have to try something else. we know now be two tried _ have to try something else. we know now be two tried and _ have to try something else. we know now be two tried and tested - have to try something else. we know now be two tried and tested failures. now be two tried and tested failures for britain — now be two tried and tested failures for britain... the— now be two tried and tested failures for britain- - -—

for britain... the answer is? reform. _ for britain... the answer is? reform. give _ for britain... the answer is? reform, give them - for britain... the answer is? reform, give them a - for britain... the answer is? reform, give them a try. i for britain... the answer is? l reform, give them a try. they for britain... the answer is? - reform, give them a try. they cannot be any— reform, give them a try. they cannot be any worse — reform, give them a try. they cannot be any worse than _ reform, give them a try. they cannot be any worse than what _ reform, give them a try. they cannot be any worse than what we _ reform, give them a try. they cannot be any worse than what we have i reform, give them a try. they cannot be any worse than what we have got. | be any worse than what we have got. god help _ be any worse than what we have got. god help us — be any worse than what we have got. god help us if— be any worse than what we have got. god help us if labour— be any worse than what we have got. god help us if labour get _ be any worse than what we have got. god help us if labour get in. - be any worse than what we have got. god help us if labour get in. i- god help us if labour get in. think nigel farage is a god help us if labour get in]. think nigel farage is a busted flush, — think nigel farage is a busted flush, personally.— think nigel farage is a busted flush, personally. victoria, you still with us? _ flush, personally. victoria, you still with us? i— flush, personally. victoria, you still with us? i am. _ flush, personally. victoria, you still with us? i am. victoria, i flush, personally. victoria, you| still with us? i am. victoria, the niel still with us? i am. victoria, the nigel farage — still with us? i am. victoria, the nigel farage factor, _ still with us? i am. victoria, the nigel farage factor, when i still with us? i am. victoria, the nigel farage factor, when he i still with us? i �*i�*i victoria, the nigel farage factor, when he turns up nigel farage factor, when he turns up at reform uk events, he gets a hero's welcome, doesn't he? probably more of a welcome got when he was in thejungle, but they more of a welcome got when he was in the jungle, but they love more of a welcome got when he was in thejungle, but they love him. he is high—profile, and whatever you think of him, he is charismatic. there are a lot of people out there who really love him. i a lot of people out there who really love him. ., , love him. i have seen the light...

what? hate _ love him. i have seen the light... what? hate mail, _ love him. i have seen the light... what? hate mail, that— love him. i have seen the light... what? hate mail, that is- love him. i have seen the light... what? hate mail, that is the i love him. i have seen the light... | what? hate mail, that is the daily mail. i did used _ what? hate mail, that is the daily mail. i did used to _ what? hate mail, that is the daily mail. i did used to be _ what? hate mail, that is the daily mail. i did used to be a _ what? hate mail, that is the daily mail. i did used to be a new- what? hate mail, that is the daily mail. i did used to be a new cap. mail. i did used to be a new cap supporter, believe it or not, but i have seen the light. —— a ukip supporter. i have seen the light. -- a ukip supporter-— have seen the light. -- a ukip su orter. . ., . ., , supporter. i want to get victoria's comment on _ supporter. i want to get victoria's comment on reform _ supporter. i want to get victoria's comment on reform uk - supporter. i want to get victoria's comment on reform uk and i supporter. i want to get victoria's| comment on reform uk and nigel farage. i think that nigel al—faraj speaks to a certain group in the electorate. there is probably an equal group that do not like him. realistically, i think that scarlett touched on it, the issue about the turnout is important because it suggests notjust a lack of trust, which i think it's quite obvious, but a complete disillusionment with politics. they do not seem to be any big ideas at the moment. labour is being incredibly cautious, they are not selling any big vision of what they want britain to look like. therefore, it kind of leaves us in this land where there isn't a lot of

vision, there isn't a lot of pull factor. it is all about keeping the ship steady. what reform are doing is they are trying to say, we are the alternative, but realistically they are not selling a vision either. untilthere they are not selling a vision either. until there is a party who is willing to actually put their cards on the table and say, this is what they want the country and the world to look like, we are still going to continue with this real sense of antipathy which is connected to this lack of trust in politicians generally.— connected to this lack of trust in politicians generally. which is what ou were politicians generally. which is what you were saying. — politicians generally. which is what you were saying, scarlett, - politicians generally. which is what you were saying, scarlett, just i politicians generally. which is what you were saying, scarlett, just a i you were saying, scarlett, just a few moments ago. is there evidence that there is growing enthusiasm for keir starmer, orare that there is growing enthusiasm for keir starmer, or are they surfing on a wave of disillusionment with the conservative party? it is a wave of disillusionment with the conservative party?— conservative party? it is a great question. _ conservative party? it is a great question. one — conservative party? it is a great question, one that _ conservative party? it is a great question, one that everyone i conservative party? it is a great| question, one that everyone has conservative party? it is a great i question, one that everyone has been trying to answer all year. i still don't think there is any great enthusiasm for keir starmer. i think she looks like a safe pair of hands. i do think, i have noticed the more people see of him, especially in contrast to some of the things we

have seen from rishi sunak recently, people are more inclined to say he seems a bit normal, he seems to understand the problem is a bit better. they see rishi sunak as being out of touch and keir starmer is more straightforward and on their level. even though there is no great enthusiasm for him at the moment, i think in an election campaign, people are seeing more of him, we could see that change. ultimately, it doesn't really matter because the combination of having a 20 point lead in voting intention polls and these by—election wins show that he is on course for a majority anyway. good morning. what is your message from the by—elections? goad good morning. what is your message from the by-elections? good morning, nikki. from the by-elections? good morning, nikki- regarding _ from the by-elections? good morning, nikki. regarding last _ from the by-elections? good morning, nikki. regarding last night's _ nikki. regarding last night's results. _ nikki. regarding last night's results, a clear demonstration that the polls— results, a clear demonstration that the polls are very accurate, it would — the polls are very accurate, it would seem, with a few variations, obviously — would seem, with a few variations, obviously in — would seem, with a few variations, obviously. in relation to keir starmer, _ obviously. in relation to keir starmer, we are hearing an awful lot about— starmer, we are hearing an awful lot about how _ starmer, we are hearing an awful lot about how boring he is, how dull he is, and _ about how boring he is, how dull he is, and i_ about how boring he is, how dull he is, and i would probably agree with some _ is, and i would probably agree with some of— is, and i would probably agree with

some of that, but the bottom line is this- _ some of that, but the bottom line is this- the _ some of that, but the bottom line is this— the conservatives have had 14 years. _ this— the conservatives have had 14 years. and — this— the conservatives have had 14 years. and in— this— the conservatives have had 14 years, and in those 14 years, look where _ years, and in those 14 years, look where we — years, and in those 14 years, look where we are on the nhs, education, house—building, taxation, immigration, they messed up brexit. probably— immigration, they messed up brexit. probably the worst thing of all, partygate. frankly, when a government have had 14 years to get it right _ government have had 14 years to get it right and _ government have had 14 years to get it right and they have got it so woefully — it right and they have got it so woefully wrong, you could have mickey— woefully wrong, you could have mickey mouse in charge of the opposition and that person deserves a go _ opposition and that person deserves a go we _ opposition and that person deserves a go. we live in a democracy, not a one-party— a go. we live in a democracy, not a one—party state. as i say, between 2010 _ one—party state. as i say, between 2010 and _ one—party state. as i say, between 2010 and 2019, nine years of pre—pandemic, where did the government leave us? they left us hugely— government leave us? they left us hugely in_ government leave us? they left us hugely in debt, left our infrastructure beneath the floor, no growth _ infrastructure beneath the floor, no growth whatsoever. there is simply

no way _ growth whatsoever. there is simply no way that — growth whatsoever. there is simply no way that the conservative party deserve _ no way that the conservative party deserve four more years. and no, i am not _ deserve four more years. and no, i am not a _ deserve four more years. and no, i am not a red. — deserve four more years. and no, i am not a red, left wing labour member _ am not a red, left wing labour member i_ am not a red, left wing labour member. lam am not a red, left wing labour member. i am a semi retired guy, and iwould— member. i am a semi retired guy, and i would love _ member. i am a semi retired guy, and i would love to see any government, frankly, _ i would love to see any government, frankly, get— i would love to see any government, frankly, get it right. when the government have got it so wrong for 14 years. _ government have got it so wrong for 14 years, they do not deserve another— 14 years, they do not deserve another five.— 14 years, they do not deserve another five. thank you. that is something _ another five. thank you. that is something i— another five. thank you. that is something i want _ another five. thank you. that is something i want to _ another five. thank you. that is something i want to focus i another five. thank you. that is something i want to focus on. l another five. thank you. that is i something i want to focus on. john major, who was ousted by tony blair in 1997, the big labour landslide, and they had a growing economy then, the economy was doing really well, it had been growing from 1992, despite the reactions of the exchange rate mechanism. it was solid and growing. john major says, theyjust solid and growing. john major says, they just stopped solid and growing. john major says, theyjust stopped listening to us. there is a bit of that, isn't there? allah i think there are so much of that. that is part of the problem. we have been hearing lots of

different stories about when the election might be, what they might be holding out for. a big part of thatis be holding out for. a big part of that is this hope that if they hold out for long enough, the economy will get better and people will give them credit. but as the economy going to get a better anyway people feel? and if it does, will people give them credit? my understanding of it from talking to lots of voters and hearing from your colours, people have stopped listening. they point to a country that they feel is broken, it is not working very well, a lot of them feel worse off than they did a few years ago. added on top of that is the concept the last four years. and i think they think, we are done. abs, four years. and i think they think, we are done-— we are done. a bad week for keir starmer with _ we are done. a bad week for keir starmer with the _ we are done. a bad week for keir starmer with the anti-semitism . we are done. a bad week for keir i starmer with the anti-semitism row, starmer with the anti—semitism row, that does not seem to have been reflected in the results last night, is that more of a bubble issue than we thought? you'll occur it is remarkable how it sort of bullet proof that labour lead has been. jill mcgruder has been a little change in the headlines over the last year. i

change in the headlines over the last ear. ., ~' change in the headlines over the last ear. ., ~ ., , , last year. i do think that plays into... last year. i do think that plays into- -- if— last year. i do think that plays into... if you _ last year. i do think that plays into... if you look _ last year. i do think that plays into... if you look at - last year. i do think that plays into... if you look at keir i into... if you look at keir starmer�*s personal ratings, they are much higher than rishi sunak, you clearly don who would be the best prime minister, in a very good indicator of who will win the next general election. but people are still very one—sided and keir starmer are still very unpopular. you can win an election being very unpopular, it is similar to boris johnson and jeremy corbyn. jeremy corbyn was hideously unpopular and borisjohnson was just corbyn was hideously unpopular and boris johnson was just slightly less unpopular full stop i boris johnson was 'ust slightly less unpopular full stop— unpopular full stop i thought there was a massive _ unpopular full stop i thought there was a massive boris _ unpopular full stop i thought there was a massive boris johnson i unpopular full stop i thought there was a massive boris johnson fan. . unpopular full stop i thought there i was a massive boris johnson fan. you had an ability — was a massive borisjohnson fan. ym. had an ability to win over new voters, but his favourability and approval ratings were low. all of thatis approval ratings were low. all of that is to say that there is not very much labour could do to seriously dent their lead. and there's not much to conservatives could do to pull it around. lilly. could do to pull it around. lily, cuick could do to pull it around. lily, quick point _ could do to pull it around. lily, quick point please. _ could do to pull it around. lily, quick point please. it - could do to pull it around. lily, quick point please. it has i could do to pull it around. lily, quick point please. it has been j could do to pull it around. lily, i quick point please. it has been very interesting- —

quick point please. it has been very interesting- i— quick point please. it has been very interesting. i live _ quick point please. it has been very interesting. i live in _ quick point please. it has been very interesting. i live in north _ interesting. i live in north gloucestershire. the by—election is quite _ gloucestershire. the by—election is quite encouraging. we live in stroud here, _ quite encouraging. we live in stroud here it _ quite encouraging. we live in stroud here it is _ quite encouraging. we live in stroud here, it is quite similar. sol quite encouraging. we live in stroud here, it is quite similar. so i am hoping— here, it is quite similar. so i am hoping that— here, it is quite similar. so i am hoping that it might be a bit of a domino— hoping that it might be a bit of a domino effect. i am not a massive fan of— domino effect. i am not a massive fan of keir— domino effect. i am not a massive fan of keir starmer particularly, and i_ fan of keir starmer particularly, and l have — fan of keir starmer particularly, and i have definitely been disillusioned by politics in the last few— disillusioned by politics in the last few years. post—pandemic it is hard to— last few years. post—pandemic it is hard to work— last few years. post—pandemic it is hard to work it all out. but i really — hard to work it all out. but i really hope that it will be a positive _ really hope that it will be a positive thing, and come the general election. _ positive thing, and come the general election, like your collar said earlier, — election, like your collar said earlier, it _ election, like your collar said earlier, it will get the tories out. i run _ earlier, it will get the tories out. i run a _ earlier, it will get the tories out. i run a local— earlier, it will get the tories out. i run a local business here doing picture — i run a local business here doing picture framing. and our local tory mp reached — picture framing. and our local tory mp reached out to me to ask what she can do— mp reached out to me to ask what she can do to _ mp reached out to me to ask what she can do to help, but as far as it goes. — can do to help, but as far as it goes. i— can do to help, but as far as it goes. i do _ can do to help, but as far as it goes, i do not see any real help. we have managed to make it through the pandemic— have managed to make it through the pandemic and all the other factors

that we _ pandemic and all the other factors that we are having to face throughout all this, with tory politics— throughout all this, with tory politics and policies... put your finer on politics and policies... put your finger on it. — politics and policies... put your finger on it, why _ politics and policies... put your finger on it, why are _ politics and policies... put your finger on it, why are you i politics and policies... put your finger on it, why are you so i finger on it, why are you so disillusioned with politics and politicians? i'm getting this again and again, and i have been out for months. dominic it is and again, and i have been out for months. domini— months. dominic it is difficult to in oint. months. dominic it is difficult to pinpoint- l _ months. dominic it is difficult to pinpoint. i have _ months. dominic it is difficult to pinpoint. i have always - months. dominic it is difficult to pinpoint. i have always felt i i months. dominic it is difficult to | pinpoint. i have always felt i had been _ pinpoint. i have always felt i had been like — pinpoint. i have always felt i had been like someone who is relatively socially _ been like someone who is relatively socially engaged with politics and want to _ socially engaged with politics and want to keep on top of what is going on, want to keep on top of what is going on. but _ want to keep on top of what is going on. but for— want to keep on top of what is going on, but for the last few years, i 'ust on, but for the last few years, i just can't— on, but for the last few years, i just can't handle it. i can't cope with— just can't handle it. i can't cope with the — just can't handle it. i can't cope with the negativity and the outrageousness of their policies and behaviours. it seems... so much of it seems— behaviours. it seems... so much of it seems insane and unbelievable. you know. — it seems insane and unbelievable. you know. i— it seems insane and unbelievable. you know, iwake it seems insane and unbelievable. you know, i wake up and read a headline — you know, i wake up and read a headline, and i can't read it have the time — headline, and i can't read it have the time because it isjust like an

alternate — the time because it isjust like an alternate reality a lot of the time. i do not _ alternate reality a lot of the time. i do not know if labour... i have always _ i do not know if labour... i have always voted labour or liberal democrat _ always voted labour or liberal democrat in the past, and i think they are — democrat in the past, and i think they are definitely a better option, but i am _ they are definitely a better option, but i am not convinced. it is almost like~~ _ but i am not convinced. it is almost like~~ what— but i am not convinced. it is almost like~~ what is— but i am not convinced. it is almost like... what is the phrase? the lesser— like... what is the phrase? the lesser of— like... what is the phrase? the lesser of two evils. mite i know exactly— lesser of two evils. mite i know exactly what you mean. hello, michael — exactly what you mean. hello, michael. ~ ., ., .,~ ., m michael. what do you make of it? my oint about michael. what do you make of it? my point about this _ michael. what do you make of it? my point about this is _ michael. what do you make of it? my point about this is the _ michael. what do you make of it? my point about this is the major - michael. what do you make of it? my point about this is the major thing i point about this is the major thing that has— point about this is the major thing that has been— point about this is the major thing that has been messed, _ point about this is the major thing that has been messed, it- point about this is the major thing that has been messed, it is- point about this is the major thing that has been messed, it is very. that has been messed, it is very serious — that has been messed, it is very serious for— that has been messed, it is very serious for the _ that has been messed, it is very serious for the country, - that has been messed, it is very serious for the country, is - that has been messed, it is very serious for the country, is the i serious for the country, is the turnout — serious for the country, is the turnout was _ serious for the country, is the turnout was under— serious for the country, is the turnout was under 50%. i serious for the country, is the turnout was under 50%. whyl serious for the country, is the i turnout was under 50%. why aren't the other— turnout was under 50%. why aren't the other people _ turnout was under 50%. why aren't the other people voting, _ turnout was under 50%. why aren't the other people voting, you - turnout was under 50%. why aren'tl the other people voting, you know? turnout was under 50%. why aren't l the other people voting, you know? i know _ the other people voting, you know? i know it _ the other people voting, you know? i know it is _ the other people voting, you know? i know it is just — the other people voting, you know? i know it isjust a — the other people voting, you know? i know it isjust a local— the other people voting, you know? i know it isjust a local election, - know it isjust a local election, but we — know it isjust a local election, but we needm _ know it isjust a local election, but we need... to _ know it isjust a local election, but we need... to me, - know it isjust a local election, but we need... to me, those i know it isjust a local election, - but we need... to me, those results are flawed _

but we need... to me, those results are flawed in— but we need... to me, those results are flawed in what _ but we need... to me, those results are flawed in what they _ but we need... to me, those results are flawed in what they are - but we need... to me, those results are flawed in what they are saying. i are flawed in what they are saying. but it _ are flawed in what they are saying. but it is _ are flawed in what they are saying. but it is a — are flawed in what they are saying. but it is a symptom _ are flawed in what they are saying. but it is a symptom of— are flawed in what they are saying. but it is a symptom of the - are flawed in what they are saying. but it is a symptom of the whole . but it is a symptom of the whole process — but it is a symptom of the whole process in — but it is a symptom of the whole process in government. - but it is a symptom of the whole process in government. well, i. process in government. well, i should — process in government. well, i should say— process in government. well, i should say the _ process in government. well, i should say the house - process in government. well, i should say the house of- process in government. well, i- should say the house of commons, and how they— should say the house of commons, and how they are _ should say the house of commons, and how they are acting. _ should say the house of commons, and how they are acting.— how they are acting. listen, sir, that is not _ how they are acting. listen, sir, that is not so _ how they are acting. listen, sir, that is not so far _ how they are acting. listen, sir, that is not so far away _ how they are acting. listen, sir, that is not so far away from - how they are acting. listen, sir, | that is not so far away from what how they are acting. listen, sir, - that is not so far away from what we just heard from lily. i want to get more calls on. strong point. i have to move on because i want to get more calls on, but you have made a powerful, potent, pithy point. it is one that is reflected by things i hear from so many people. there are so many echoes of that. what would you like to see in bristol? i tide you like to see in bristol? i live close to kingswood, _ you like to see in bristol? i live close to kingswood, which - you like to see in bristol? i live close to kingswood, which is i you like to see in bristol? i live close to kingswood, which is inj close to kingswood, which is in bristol, — close to kingswood, which is in bristol, as— close to kingswood, which is in bristol, as you know, and i am responding _ bristol, as you know, and i am responding to the collar earlier who said that _ responding to the collar earlier who said that labour left a note saying the money— said that labour left a note saying the money is gone. nobody seems to reflect— the money is gone. nobody seems to reflect on— the money is gone. nobody seems to reflect on the fact that there was

an international monetary crisis at that time, — an international monetary crisis at that time, with the banks in america tanking. _ that time, with the banks in america tanking. the — that time, with the banks in america tanking, the icelandic banks tanking. _ tanking, the icelandic banks tanking, etc. but nobody talks about all of the _ tanking, etc. but nobody talks about all of the good things that labour did while — all of the good things that labour did while they were in government. all of— did while they were in government. all of the _ did while they were in government. all of the schools that were built, the fact _ all of the schools that were built, the fact that the nhs waiting lists had come down. the money had been spent _ had come down. the money had been spent positively. the conservatives have treen— spent positively. the conservatives have been there for 14 years and it is the _ have been there for 14 years and it is the opposite. schools are falling apart, _ is the opposite. schools are falling apart, the — is the opposite. schools are falling apart, the nhs is almost impossible to even— apart, the nhs is almost impossible to even get a doctor's appointment, let alone _ to even get a doctor's appointment, let alone get onto an operation list. people are not getting picked up list. people are not getting picked up soon _ list. people are not getting picked up soon enough for cancer. so the two are _ up soon enough for cancer. so the two are hot— up soon enough for cancer. so the two are not compatible. if people are talking about reform, they are not are talking about reform, they are hot here _ are talking about reform, they are hot here to — are talking about reform, they are not here to reform, they are destructors, they are here tojust

try to _ destructors, they are here tojust try to disrupt the process. from what _ try to disrupt the process. from what people have been talking about with feeling disillusioned, they are there _ with feeling disillusioned, they are there to _ with feeling disillusioned, they are there to feed that and encourage that~ _ there to feed that and encourage that it— there to feed that and encourage that. . there to feed that and encourage that. , ., , ., there to feed that and encourage that. , ., i. . there to feed that and encourage that. , ., , ., . ., that. it is how you are feeling, how many peeple _ that. it is how you are feeling, how many peeple are — that. it is how you are feeling, how many people are feeling. _ that. it is how you are feeling, how many people are feeling. thank- that. it is how you are feeling, how| many people are feeling. thank you so much. this is another thing that is coming through again and again. a kind of broken britain thing, scarlett. people out there feel that, they are at the end of their tether with what is going on. that is riuht. tether with what is going on. that is right. labour _ tether with what is going on. trisgt is right. labourwere tether with what is going on. trisgt is right. labour were really leaning into this a few months ago, they were sent conservatives broken britain. there slightly stopped doing that because i wonder if they were starting to realise the more they said that, the more people thought it is too broken for anyone to fix. it thought it is too broken for anyone to fix. . . , ., thought it is too broken for anyone to fix. u, , ., ., to fix. it can burgeon on the unpatriotic. _ to fix. it can burgeon on the unpatriotic, as _ to fix. it can burgeon on the unpatriotic, as well. - to fix. it can burgeon on the unpatriotic, as well. i- to fix. it can burgeon on the unpatriotic, as well. i thinkl to fix. it can burgeon on the - unpatriotic, as well. i think may be less of that. _ unpatriotic, as well. i think may be less of that, but, _ unpatriotic, as well. i think may be less of that, but, yes, _ unpatriotic, as well. i think may be less of that, but, yes, i— unpatriotic, as well. i think may be less of that, but, yes, i think - unpatriotic, as well. i think may be less of that, but, yes, i think that. less of that, but, yes, i think that is part of it too. part of the

problem for labour, because they are constraining themselves to the same fiscal rules the conservatives have set themselves, the economy is not looking very good, i feel they feel unable to promise anything really big to say this is going to fix it. actually, you know what, even if they were to promise anything, i'm not sure anyone would believe them because you're hearing, some of your listeners have said, if politicians make promises, nobody believes them anyway. i think there is a real sense that is broken. reform, it is interesting what the listener was to say, reform being a disrupter, they do an awful lot of that at the election. ., . do an awful lot of that at the election-— do an awful lot of that at the election. ., . . . _, , election. how much damage could be due to the conservatives? _ election. how much damage could be due to the conservatives? they - election. how much damage could be due to the conservatives? they couldj due to the conservatives? they could do hue due to the conservatives? they could do huge damage- _ due to the conservatives? they could do huge damage. they _ due to the conservatives? they could do huge damage. they got _ due to the conservatives? they could do huge damage. they got double i do huge damage. they got double digits in both by—elections, hire in wellingborough. nothing like the performances ukip were getting, but it was the difference in votes between labour and the conservatives in kingswood. arguably, reform handed labour the victory in kingswood. i think you will see that

replicated across the country. and replicated across the country. and not ureat replicated across the country. and not great for _ replicated across the country. and not great for the _ replicated across the country. and not great for the liberal democrats. i think these are conservative— labour fights. i think these are conservative— labourfights. we know reform i think these are conservative— labour fights. we know reform voters are run disproportionately from the conservatives, only a tiny proportion from labour. this is probably even more worrying for the conservatives, that people were not voting liberal democrat because it means people are voting tactically to get them out. the means people are voting tactically to get them out.— to get them out. the conversation continues on _ to get them out. the conversation continues on five _ to get them out. the conversation continues on five live. _ to get them out. the conversation continues on five live. thank- to get them out. the conversation continues on five live. thank you i continues on five live. thank you for watching. live from london. this is bbc news. emphatic victories for labour in two parliamentary by—elections — meaning a humiliating double defeat for the conservatives who lose large majorities. this is a stunning victory for the labour party and must send a message from northamptonshire to downing street. the work to give kingswood its future back starts now. i

people who have not voted labour went out and voted labour so i am very pleased but there is obviously more work to do. this is bbc news. we start with the government suffering a double by—election defeat at the hands of labour. its the latest blow to the conservatives less than a year from a general election that opinion polls suggest they are likely to lose. labour candidates overturned comfortable majorities in kingswood and wellingborough. hailing the results, labour's leader, sir keir starmer, said the british people were ready to put their trust in his party to deliver change. genevieve victoria, also known as gen kitchen, labour party, 13,844 votes. cheering. it's a result even better than they had hoped for. the biggest drop in the conservative

vote, and the second largest swing from tory to labour in any by—election since