with my family, with my husband. another court ruling concerning donald trump is expected imminently. it could cost him hundreds of millions of dollars and restrict his business dealings in new york. here in the uk — the labour party wins two by—elections in a further blow to the governing conservatives. hello, i'm matthew amroliwala, welcome to verified live — where we've been following the news that the jailed politcial activist alexei navalny has died. the putin critic was being held in a penal colony, close to the arctic circle, serving a 19—year sentence for extremism and fraud charges — charges widely considered to be politically motivated. the us vice—president, kamala harris says, "russia is responsible for navalny�*s death".

the uk prime minister said, it was "terrible news" and nato�*s secretary general says, "russia has serious questions to answer". in 2020, navalny was poisoned with the nerve agent novichok — russia's fsb security service was blamed. today, russia's prison service said navalny felt "unwell after a walk and almost immediately lost consciousness". we've also heard from alexi navalny�*s wife, who made an unexpected appearance at the munich security conference. she said she wasn't sure if she could believe the reports from russian authorities, and had this message for vladimir putin. translation: but if it is true, i want to vladimir _ translation: but if it is true, i want to vladimir putin _ translation: but if it is true, i want to vladimir putin and - translation: but if it is true, i want to vladimir putin and all i translation: but if it is true, i| want to vladimir putin and all his allies, his government — i want them allies, his government — i want them all to know that they would be held

responsible for what they have done with our country, with my family, with our country, with my family, with my husband. they will be held responsible for that, and that they —— that day would come very soon. and i want to call all international community, everyone who is present here today, people all over the world to unite, to unite and win over that evil, to win over that horrible regime which is currently existing in russia. this regime and mr putin personally should hold responsibility for all horrific things which they have done to our country, to my country in the last years. thank you very much.

extraordinary that she found the strength just in the minutes after hearing that news from moscow to actually stand up and give that statement to all those delegates at that munich convention. i want to speak to bill browder — we had some technical issues earlier but i'm delighted to say she joins me that shejoins me on the phone, author of freezing order: surviving bruton�*s wrath. a leading critic of vladimir putin, welcome to the programme. your reaction first of all to what we've learned today is yellow totally shocked, demoralise and disgusted that totally shocked, demoralise and dis~usted . ., totally shocked, demoralise and dis~usted . . ., disgusted that vladimir putin would kill one of his _

disgusted that vladimir putin would kill one of his most _ disgusted that vladimir putin would kill one of his most important - kill one of his most important opponents. it'sjust horrifying. we opponents. it's “ust horrifying. we are opponents. it'sjust horrifying. we are used to the denials and russia muddying the waters, they denied everything again today, talking about rabid comments — you are in no doubt that this stops at vladimir putin's door? i doubt that this stops at vladimir putin's door?— doubt that this stops at vladimir putin's door? i think that vladimir bruton organised _ putin's door? i think that vladimir bruton organised the _ putin's door? i think that vladimir| bruton organised the assassination of alexei navalny, this was his first attempt — the first attempt was with nova chalk in 2020 which failed, and his second attempt succeeded today. there's no question in my mind and in any reasonable person's that putin organised this assassination. there are so many opponents of putin who are dead that it's laughable for putin to deny that. ~ , . , it's laughable for putin to deny that. ~ ,. , ., it's laughable for putin to deny that. ,. ., ., , that. we saw pictures of navalny yesterday. _ that. we saw pictures of navalny yesterday. we — that. we saw pictures of navalny yesterday, we still _ that. we saw pictures of navalny yesterday, we still wait - that. we saw pictures of navalny yesterday, we still wait for - that. we saw pictures of navalny yesterday, we still wait for any l yesterday, we still wait for any sort of detail, i know that navalny�*s team of lawyers are hoping to be there at the penal colony at

some stage, that's what they've said in the last little while. did you basically fear something like this would happen once we learned of his transfer to that really harsh penal colony? transfer to that really harsh penal colon ? .. transfer to that really harsh penal colon ? .,,. ., , colony? basically i feared this was would happen _ colony? basically i feared this was would happen when _ colony? basically i feared this was would happen when he _ colony? basically i feared this was would happen when he returned i colony? basically i feared this was| would happen when he returned to russia. remember, they tried to kill him in siberia but they didn't succeed, he ended up going to germany to recover, then he decided to return to russia. he was returning effectively to the custody of the people who tried to kill him the first time, and the only thing that's surprising as they waited three years to kill him instead of doing it right away. but whether it's one penal colony or another is neither here nor there, the fact is they killed him today, and putin bears full responsibility. i’ll they killed him today, and putin bears full responsibility. i'll come back to that _ bears full responsibility. i'll come back to that and _ bears full responsibility. i'll come back to that and a _ bears full responsibility. i'll come back to that and a moment - back to that and a moment because david cameron saying in the last little while that there needs to be consequences. but a ten question for you first of all dust when question

for you — why did vladimir putin fear him so much? and it is so extraordinary on a human personal level that despite the novichok poisoning, he then recovered in part and went back to russia. it’s a poisoning, he then recovered in part and went back to russia.— and went back to russia. it's a true demonstration _ and went back to russia. it's a true demonstration of _ and went back to russia. it's a true demonstration of bravery _ and went back to russia. it's a true demonstration of bravery for - and went back to russia. it's a true demonstration of bravery for a - demonstration of bravery for a man who almost died to be so compelled to go back to his home country, so patriotic and to be so determined to unseat a dictator that he was ready to put his life on the line, to give his life. on one hand, i think his calculus was that he would go to jail, but then he would come out of jail, but then he would come out of jail to run russia when putin and's regime collapsed, like nelson mandela — instead he ended up like martin luther king, assassinated. but either way, he's a man of

incredible bravery, he's a martyr himself for the free people of russia, and no one will forget navalny�*s sacrifices he made. i navalny's sacrifices he made. i spoke about international reaction, we've heard so many words from so many leaders today — what should they do? many leaders today - what should the do? , ., ., ~ they do? first and foremost, i think we need to — they do? first and foremost, i think we need to understand _ they do? first and foremost, i think we need to understand that - they do? first and foremost, i think we need to understand that there . they do? first and foremost, i think. we need to understand that there are other political prisoners maybe not quite as high—profile as navalny — there's vladimir karamazov, a russian citizen and member of the russian citizen and member of the russian opposition who was sentenced to 25 years in prison sitting in siberia right now, also suffering and potentially going to be killed. another opposition member — i think the first thing the west should do is try to come up with a way to get these other prisoners out so if and when the putin regime falls, we have

some real proper democrats, people who believe in democracy as those who believe in democracy as those who could take over russia, because putin's regime is brutal and won't last forever, we just don't know when it will collapse.— last forever, we just don't know when it will collapse. you're saying what happens _ when it will collapse. you're saying what happens after _ when it will collapse. you're saying what happens after putin, - when it will collapse. you're saying what happens after putin, but - what happens after putin, but presumably — we don't know the details around this death, but presumably it sends a chill through anyone who wants to put their head above the parapet and take on vladimir putin, or even to demonstrate on the streets. doesn't it once again tighten that viselike grip? it once again tighten that viselike i ri . ? , , ., , �* it once again tighten that viselike rii? , , ., ,�* grip? yes, but putin doesn't care an more grip? yes, but putin doesn't care any more what — grip? yes, but putin doesn't care any more what the _ grip? yes, but putin doesn't care any more what the west - grip? yes, but putin doesn't care any more what the west things l grip? yes, but putin doesn't care - any more what the west things about him, he's long discarded any international legitimacy when he started the war in ukraine. nor at this point does he care that the russian people love him, he won't win the hearts and minds of the russians. so what this does is a

very high—profile assassination, it sends shivers down the spine of anybody who has any feeling that they want to challenge putin, because the consequences of challenging putin is death. the same way that the consequence for a soldier for mutiny, way that the consequence for a soldierfor mutiny, like prigozhin — this is the act of a dictatorjust trying as best he can do absolutely terrify his people into submission. you mentioned ukraine and took me to a place i wanted to go, in america we've seen republicans blocking aid to ukraine, so many people worried about the consequence of that, it helps russia wins this war against ukraine — is this a reminder today what has happened, what the west is actually dealing with? i what has happened, what the west is actually dealing with?— actually dealing with? i believe this changes — actually dealing with? i believe this changes the _ actually dealing with? i believe this changes the calculus - this changes the calculus dramatically in the us house of representatives. there are a number of individuals led by mikejohnson,

the speaker of the house of representatives, who are effectively trying to block aid for ukraine to benefit putin. that's not a very politically clever tactic to take after putin has openly and brazenly assassinated his most effective opposition politician. and i think that they will look a lot less steady politically in continuing to oppose the aid package for ukraine, and i suspect that that aid, that $63 billion will materialise and probably this act of putin's will help the ukrainians ultimately. aha, help the ukrainians ultimately. a final thought because at its heart, this is a human story, we saw alexei navalny�*s wife talking to delegates in munich — i don't know how much to contact you had with him or his

family, but it is devastating on a human level, isn't it? it’s human level, isn't it? it's absolutely _ human level, isn't it? it�*s absolutely horrifying. i met all the family at different times, and of course i was friends with alexei navalny, and it's heartbreaking he's no longer with us, he was incredibly brave, talented and charismatic. it's a terrible waste for the world, for russians, for his family that putin would eliminate him. in a feel for them profoundly, putin would eliminate him. in a feel forthem profoundly, i putin would eliminate him. in a feel for them profoundly, i can't even imagine what they are feeling, and the hopelessness that a lot of people feel watching this whole thing play itself out. i’m people feel watching this whole thing play itself out.— people feel watching this whole thing play itself out. i'm glad that eventually we _ thing play itself out. i'm glad that eventually we were _ thing play itself out. i'm glad that eventually we were able - thing play itself out. i'm glad that eventually we were able to - thing play itself out. i'm glad that eventually we were able to make | eventually we were able to make connection with you and talk to you, and hear your thoughts, thanks so much forjoining us live on today's programme. those pictures on your screen are from moscow, they are still coming into us of people there arriving in the central square, to

leave their particular flowers or tributes, just thoughts, some of them standing there. let me also take you to berlin because just as i was saying that, a round of applause there as they listen to speakers there, as they turn up and mark this moment. so many capitals are seeing similar scenes as the politicians themselves continue to try to make an assessment themselves about where they go to. you heard what bill browder was saying, but lord cameron talking about the need for consequences, but that will be what is now front and centre for politicians, and as i say, we wait forjoe biden, we are expecting comments from him and the white housein comments from him and the white house in the next little while — we thought about ten minutes ago, but a slight delay. as soon as picture comes to us from the white house, we

will show you that and hear the comments from the american president. but in terms of alexei navalny... i want to play you a clip from the hardtalk programme in 2017 when stephen sackur asked i alexei navalny, the dangers he faced in opposing vladimir putin. have a listen to this. i guess from 2010, i never had a day in my life when i wasn't under the criminal prosecution because it's the way how they fight me. that's true. you've had convictions, you've had house arrest, and you may well end up in prison again. your brother is currently in prison in solitary confinement. you know that you are treading a very fine line and if you go one inch too far, you'll end up in prison. or who knows?

i definitely don't draw this line for myself. ijust do what i can do in this particular moment. and i don't care about what kremlin is doing, what their strategy about keeping me in prison or releasing me, maybe, you know, that i had actually a moment when they imprison me for five years and i spent the night in the prison knowing nothing about what's going on in moscow, where tens of thousand people came in the street and they forced actually vladimir putin to release me. these people who came in the street, they are not gone. they still live in in this city. they still live in the country. and i'm absolutely 100% sure that my programme for this presidency election is the programme based on the needs of the majority of people. let me stop you there. are you absolutely determined? you talk about your run for the presidency. you're determined, come what may, to challenge vladimir putin in the election, which we believe

will come in 2018. you are going to run, are you? yeah, i'm going to run. and well, i'm not a naive person. i understand that kremlin is very unhappy with me running, and i understand that they will do everything to prevent me from running. and recently, several kremlin's officials said that he is not allowing to allow to participate. but still, i am going to appeal to the people and ask for them support. i mean, in this office where we speak, you've already got your logos organised — navalny 2018. but i put it to you that if you lose this court case in kirov based on accusations of embezzlement and fraud, you will be barred from running. and whatever you tell me about your determination doesn't actually doesn't nothing in the current in the current will. .. well, as i said, they imprisoned me for five years and they released me on the next day.

the same with my participation in the mayoral election. it was almost impossible to participate. but when people came in the street and said, "we are not going to recognise this election without him participating." alexi navalny speaking to stephen sackur. let's speak to stephen sackur, presenter of hardtalk here on the bbc, who interviewed alexi navalny back in 2017. re—watching your interview must be very difficult for you. re-watching your interview must be very difficult for you.— very difficult for you. matthew, it is so strange _ very difficult for you. matthew, it is so strange and _ very difficult for you. matthew, it is so strange and depressing, - very difficult for you. matthew, it is so strange and depressing, so| very difficult for you. matthew, it. is so strange and depressing, so sad to listen to that, to think back on my encounter with alexei navalny — i journeyed to moscow and went to his anti—corruption office, and the meeting which lasted a couple hours altogether, the real danger that he was in back then, that was 2017. that was just a few days before i arrived in his office, he had to buy special reinforced doors because before that, security agents, the

authorities had smashed down the previous door in a rage to try and grab papers that he and his staff are working on. and it is important to remember that we call him and opposition leader, but alexei navalny was also a committed anti—corruption campaigner, and he spent years and years investigating the corruption at the heart of the putin regime and exposing the tens and tens of millions of dollars worth of properties that putin had acquired and that his cronies had acquired. and it was that work that navalny and his team were doing that infuriated putin and in that way made navalny enemy number one for putin and his criminal and associates.— putin and his criminal and associates. ., . ., , associates. you reference to “ust the drive, — associates. you reference to “ust the drive. the i associates. you reference to just the drive, the anti-corruption - associates. you reference to just l the drive, the anti-corruption drive the drive, the anti—corruption drive and campaign— on our screen as we are talking, wejust and campaign— on our screen as we are talking, we just playing a little bit of the video that navalny

himself introduced, this was a video that went viral and so incensed putin, showing those palaces and the lavish lifestyles of the russian president had. in terms of the timeline, your interview was back in 2017, and the risks were obvious then — and of course 20/20, you had then — and of course 20/20, you had the novichok poisoning. so for him to go back after all that is quite incredible, isn't it? it is incredible. _ incredible, isn't it? it is incredible. alexei - incredible, isn't it? it is. incredible. alexei navalny incredible, isn't it? it 3 incredible. alexei navalny had no doubt at all that his life was in grave danger. he knew that when i met him, his family were being persecuted, he referenced in the interview with me what was happening to his brother who also faced charges, which frankly were trumped up, a way to get navalny — he referenced in his or her interview

his determination to stand for president in 2018, but he wasn't allowed to end the criminal charges against him started to pile up. in 2020 we saw the extraordinary assassination attempt when somehow or other, navalny managed to survive poisoning with novichok against all the odds, he was then allowed to go to germany — remarkably he was allowed out of the germany dumb her country to get medical care. he took less extra in her decision to go back to moscow. and i think that's the turning point for navalny, he could've stayed but his family encouraged him to think very carefully about going back to russia. but he was absolutely determined to do that because, as bill browder referred to, he was a russian patriot, he felt so strongly about his duty, to stand up to putin and what he felt putin was doing to

his beloved russia. he went back but it was no surprising to him that he was rearrested, no surprise to him that he stood to spend the rest of his life in prison at least as long as putin was in power. and i guess really, matthew, there's only one word for what alexei navalny did in that decision to go back to russia, and that word is courage. perhaps the most courageous political act that i can think of. i the most courageous political act that i can think of.— the most courageous political act that i can think of. i think you are absolutely _ that i can think of. i think you are absolutely right _ that i can think of. i think you are absolutely right in _ that i can think of. i think you are absolutely right in that _ that i can think of. i think you are i absolutely right in that assessment. in terms of the grip that vladimir putin has, does it absolutely, as if it needed to be underlined but underline again, just there's no place in russia in 2024 to be able to voice criticism?— to voice criticism? there is no lace. to voice criticism? there is no place- i've _ to voice criticism? there is no place- i've been _ to voice criticism? there is no place. i've been thinking i to voice criticism? there is no place. i've been thinking in i to voice criticism? there is no | place. i've been thinking in the hours since i heard of navalny�*s death, i've been thinking of all the opponents, the brave people who over

the years have stood up to vladimir putin whom i've had the privilege to meet in my work, presenting the hardtalk programme. people like boris who invited me to his home in moscowjust boris who invited me to his home in moscow just a boris who invited me to his home in moscowjust a couple boris who invited me to his home in moscow just a couple years boris who invited me to his home in moscowjust a couple years before he was gunned down literallyjust a couple hundred metres from the walls of the kremlin itself — at the time he was probably the leading political opponent of vladimir putin. frankly if i think of all those i've interviewed, people like the businessman who was imprisoned but managed to get out of russia, gary kasparov, the chess grandmaster who became a putin opponent and had leave the country — frankly there are only 2—3 outcomes if you stand up are only 2—3 outcomes if you stand up to putin, if you have a high profile. you either get out of russia, you either are imprisoned in russia, you either are imprisoned in russia, or you end up dead. and that

is a reality which all russians know, and that is precisely why there is no meaningful politically organised opposition to vladimir putin inside the country right now. stephen sackur, thanks so much for those thoughts. and there's a chance to see that full 2017 interview, you can see it tonight on gmt and again over the weekend. let's speak briefly tojohn side worth, we are waiting to hearfrom president biden. is it possible to know what to expect at this stage? in general terms, expect at this stage? in general terms. yes. _ expect at this stage? in general terms, yes, we've _ expect at this stage? in general terms, yes, we've already i expect at this stage? in general| terms, yes, we've already heard expect at this stage? in general i terms, yes, we've already heard from senior members of the administration, from secretary of state antony blinken, from vice president, le harris, all of them of

course as you would expect issuing the strongest of condemnation over these reports of alexei navalny�*s death. and i believe we are expecting to hear something similar from president biden. we've been informed there's a slight delay, so any moment now, he is due to speak. the one interesting thing to note — he was asked on one occasion directly about exactly this scenario backin directly about exactly this scenario back in 2021 at a news conference, reporters put to him what would be the consequences if navalny died in russian state custody. and president biden said that the consequences would be very serious — that was a course ahead of the invasion in ukraine, and clearly since then we've seen sanctions on russia ratcheted up to full force. the question is, will there be any hints today as to what more he can do? john, we'll talk again once we've heard from the president, thanks

very much. time to squeeze in one more story. ajudge in new york is expected to issue a judgment today in donald trump's fraud trial. let's speak to renato mariotti — he's a former us federal prosecutor and legal analyst. i'm sorry because we haven't got a huge amount of time, but how potentially big as what we will gear in the next little while? it’s potentially big as what we will gear in the next little while?— in the next little while? it's very significant because _ in the next little while? it's very significant because this - in the next little while? it's very significant because this is i in the next little while? it's very significant because this is the i significant because this is the first time a former president of the united states is standing on criminal trial, and there is a potential he'll be convicted of multiple criminal felony counts. so very serious stuff stop and potentially, is it possible he'll be barred from doing any sort of business in the state of new york? is that a business in the state of new york? is that ., ., business in the state of new york? isthai ., , is that a potential possibility here? in the _ is that a potential possibility here? in the new— is that a potential possibility here? in the new york i is that a potential possibility i here? in the new york attorney general's case, _ here? in the new york attorney general's case, yes, _ here? in the new york attorney general's case, yes, he's i here? in the new york attorney general's case, yes, he's likely| here? in the new york attorney l general's case, yes, he's likely to have a very significant fine, probably $300 million or above, and his businesses will not be able to do business in the state of new york, it could have a devastating

impact on his business. we york, it could have a devastating impact on his business.- impact on his business. we are waiting for— impact on his business. we are waiting for that _ impact on his business. we are waiting for that judgment i impact on his business. we are waiting for that judgment to i waiting for that judgment to actually waiting for thatjudgment to actually drop, it is not actually in the court, but it will be circulated online. we are expecting that in the next little while, and of course as soon as we get detail, we bring you the details from thatjudge in that new york case live here on bbc news. apologies to rush you there, because we are still with our viewers in the uk so we continue to talk about this case, and we have a little more time now. sojust in case, and we have a little more time now. so just in terms of the key bits that you pulled out through the trial itself, it's important to remember that he was found liable by thejudge remember that he was found liable by the judge way back a few months ago — so we are reallyjust looking for thejudgment, the size — so we are reallyjust looking for the judgment, the size of the fine here, aren't we?— here, aren't we? that's right, as well as whether _

here, aren't we? that's right, as well as whether or _ here, aren't we? that's right, as well as whether or not _ here, aren't we? that's right, as well as whether or not he - here, aren't we? that's right, as well as whether or not he is i here, aren't we? that's right, as. well as whether or not he is liable as to other aspects of this fraud and whether some of his family members are liable, as well, i think if there's any space for the judge to rule in trump's favour, it would be ruling for example that his sons, eric and donjunior, were not liable — but that doesn't do the former president much good because that still means he's liable, still facing very substantial penalty, and of course as you pointed out, it means that he wouldn't potentially to be able to do business in the state of new york. he could have his business is placed into receivership and have a third party looking after them, sojust and have a third party looking after them, so just devastating. and have a third party looking after them, sojust devastating. what and have a third party looking after them, so just devastating. them, so “ust devastating. what did ou them, so just devastating. what did ou make them, so just devastating. what did you make of — them, so just devastating. what did you make of the _ them, so just devastating. what did you make of the defence _ them, so just devastating. what did you make of the defence along i them, so just devastating. what did you make of the defence along the. you make of the defence along the way? it was slapped down by a judge, but there is an element of the cage where there were trying to argue there had been no real damage or

victims dutch element of the case. what did you make of that defence? it's not a legal defence, i viewed it as more of a public relations strategy. the fact that the victims had been paid does not under the law allow you to defraud people. if that was in fact the law, you can imagine that you could defraud people and if you got caught, just pay the money back, right? that does not help from from a legal perspective, but i think donald trump and his team were really focused on how this would appear to the public, to the press, and politically. in appear to the public, to the press, and politically-— and politically. in terms of the -s che, and politically. in terms of the psyche. the — and politically. in terms of the psyche. the big _ and politically. in terms of the psyche, the big businessman, | and politically. in terms of the i psyche, the big businessman, the billionaire, if there is a massive fine here, hundreds of millions of dollars and not being able to do business, what do you think that does for him in terms of the image she likes to project? he’s does for him in terms of the image she likes to project?— she likes to pro'ect? he's no psychologist. _ she likes to project? he's no psychologist, it _ she likes to project? he's no

psychologist, it certainly i she likes to project? he's no | psychologist, it certainly does she likes to project? he's no i psychologist, it certainly does not portray him into success. so i can't read his mind but what i would say is he is i think taking towards demonising thejudge, attacking the judge because he knew he was going to lose here. in fact, you don't really criticise the judge of the defence trial unless you know that you're going to lose and are trying to make some broader point, and that's what he did here. and i think that's what he did here. and i think that's why he did it, because he wants to reverse that negative image that will come from the judgment here. that will come from the 'udgment here. ~ ., that will come from the 'udgment here. . ., ., ., , here. we have to leave it there, but we could get — here. we have to leave it there, but we could get his _ here. we have to leave it there, but we could get hisjudgment - here. we have to leave it there, but we could get hisjudgment at i here. we have to leave it there, but we could get hisjudgment at any i we could get his judgment at any time. thanks forjoining us and giving those thoughts to our viewers around the world, and also our viewers here in the uk. let's go straight back to the white house, because we are on the brink of hearing from president biden, his thoughts after the death of alexei navalny was announced by the russian

penal services, the prison services, that statement, very little detail apart from saying that he collapsed after a walk, after alexei navalny�*s spokesperson saying, "there's almost no hope that navalny is alive." so we wait to hear from the us president, his first public reaction. this is bbc news. these are live pictures from the white house. we are expecting presidentjoe biden in the next moment or two to get his first comments. he's already been briefed about the death of alexei navalny. i was just saying and looking at the latest spokesman's comments from the alexei navalny camp. "there is almost no hope that navalny is alive". the reason there is any doubt is of course there have been

no official confirmation that navalny side, lawyers, team, family, they have seen the same statements from the russian prison service as everyone else and that is what people are going on. but all of our correspondence making the point that it is hugely unlikely that they would put out a statement like that unless it was true given just the prominence of alexei navalny. worked just going through some reaction that we have had. we heard from the vice president earlier in the us secretary of state as well. david cameron, the uk foreign secretary has also been talking in the last little while. let's hear from hearfrom him. alexei navalny was an incredibly brave fighter against corruption, and he gave up everything in campaigning for what he believed in. and my heart goes out to his wife and to his family. and we should be clear

about what has happened here. putin's russia imprisoned him, trumped up charges against him,