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tv   HAR Dtalk  BBC News  February 17, 2024 11:30am-12:01pm GMT

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withdrawn from the key eastern town of avdiivka to avoid being surrounded by russian forces. a cry for conservative unity from rishi sunak after his party's two big by—election defeats this week. the japanese space agency says its new h3 rocket has successfully ta ken off. it hopes to gain a foothold in the commercial satellite launching business. now on bbc news, russian prison authorities have announced the death of one of the country's most significant opposition leaders alexei navlany. leaders alexei navalny. now on bbc news stephen sackur who spoke to him in 2017 for hardtalk as he prepared to stand against putin in upcoming elections. welcome to a special edition of hardtalk from moscow. i'm stephen sackur. for 17 years, one man has dominated the politics of the russian capital, vladimir putin. externally, he's projected russian
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power from ukraine to syria and internally opposition has been repressed, intimidated and silenced. but not altogether. my guest today is the most prominent leader of russia's anti—putin opposition, alexei navalny. now he has committed to fighting putin in the 2018 presidential election but will his defiance cost him dear? alexei navalny, welcome to hardtalk. thank you for having me here. you have been involved in opposition politics of one form or another for almost ten years, maybe more, and itjust seems to me that right now your position
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is perhaps more dispiriting, more depressing than it's ever been before. would you agree? absolutely not. actually, i... ironically, i can call vladimir putin as my godfather in politics. because when he came to power and the way he talks and what he's saying, what he's doing, the laws he's passing through duma, told me that russia is done with a democracy and i should do something. i should join the opposition movement, but, you know, i didn't find myself in a more depressing situation than previously. for example, in 2008, the biggest rally, the biggest meeting i participated in was maybe 100 people, maybe 200 and meeting with 1,000 people was tremendously big. but in 2011, 2012, we saw rallies
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participating with hundreds of thousands of people, so i saw different times and, uh... it doesn't bother me how many people now come into the streets. i enjoy doing the right thing. but in a way, you've just made my point for me. you had a momentum between 2008 and 2011, 2012, it did appear that you were building a real popular street movement but look at today. today, more than 80% of russians say they approve of president putin but also the international situation is changing and in particular we are about to see a new us president who admires vladimir putin, who says that putin is smart, who says he believes that he can trust putin and wants to work with putin. that's your new reality. well, i have to remind you that,
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for example, in 2008, everyone in the world admired putin and medvedev much bigger than now. do you remember the so—called reset strategy declared by the 0bama administration? they were just nice friends with mr putin, they are kissing each other, etc, etc. yes, we have momentum... let's be specific. when donald trump says, and this is a tweet from just the other day when he says, quote, "we should be ready "to trust vladimir putin," what is your feeling? well, it sounds disappointing for me and, you know, it's bothering me because i have no idea why mr trump is so kind to mr putin because their views on politics, on particular issues, they 100% differ. from migration to the economy, they are 100% different politicians. but they like each other and it's strange, but, well, uh, i would say that international
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relationships between the kremlin and foreign countries, they wasn't the hot issue inside of russia. so, well, someone is good for putin, someone is bad, it doesn't care for me. but do you in any sense feel betrayed by an incoming us president who says that he regards working closely with putin would be a great asset? you know, because in a sense that works against everything you are trying to achieve, you are trying to tell the russian people that as long as putin has power, russia is going to be facing sanctions, russia is going to be isolated... right, right. ..russia has no international future and yet... uh, well... ..trump�*s message is very different. i don't like it and i could say honestly that i'm irritated by this, but, annoyed by this, but i don't feel betrayed. and i can tell you about moments when i felt betrayed. when putin's oligarch, uh, in the top of the...in the...of the british list of most wealthy people, when government officials from russia buying apartments
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costing £11 million in london, when they are freely travelling all over europe and all over the world, despite you have a lot of special regulations, like, you know, you have a so—called bribery act in russia, uh, in britain and you can, without any problems, prosecute these people on your own laws, for money laundering, for bribery, but they feeling completely free. i feel betrayed. but it doesn't have something to do with donald trump, so far. isn't one of your big problem that vladimir putin has very successfully wrapped himself in the russian flag, he's used nationalism as a potent political force and he's done it in recent years by projecting russian power beyond your borders.
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0bviously, i'm thinking in particular of events in ukraine but also what we see in syria today. vladimir putin, to your people in russia, looks like the strong leader reviving russian power that so many russian people want. uh, vladimir putinjust tried to distract russian people from their real problems like inequality and poverty. you have 23 million russian citizens living below the line of poverty and he has distracted them from this problem with his imperial delusion about making russia great again and all this stuff. you call it an imperial delusion. vladimir putin would say to you, getting back crimea, which is ours and historically was always ours and means so much to the people in this country, that's not a delusion,
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that's something that he has delivered for the russian people. i would say that everyone in russia would be much happier if vladimir putin delivered some more wealth to the russian people, notjust to his oligarchs, because what happened in russia, in terms of the economy, i will use the favourite term of mr trump, it's a disaster what's going on inside of the country. and, yes, vladimir putin has a very aggressive behaviour towards...everyone in this world now but it's just because he doesn't have an ability to solve problems inside russia. are you telling me that your message to the russian people is that if you, alexei navalny, were in power in the kremlin, you would hand crimea back to ukraine? is that what you would do? i don't think that there are simple decisions on this issue but i would say that first
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of all i will start a new and honest referendum in crimea and the voice of the crimean people in an honest referendum... no. with all due respect, international law is quite clear. crimea belongs to ukraine and it was annexed illegally, so if you are to reset russia to create a new dynamic between russia and the outside world, you would have to hand crimea back. are you prepared to do that and tell the russian people you would do that? uh, i... ..would admit honestly that it was an illegal annexation, yes, it's true. but there is no simple decision like moving crimea back and forth, right? and i would say that this is a problem that don't have any decision for a couple of decades, maybe longer. it would be something like north cyprus or territory we're sharing with japan, arguing with japan for decades, or palestinian territories.
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all conflicts like this, they don't have a simple solution. maybe they don't have a solution at all but what we should really consider in this situation is the opinion of the people in crimea. actually, we have no idea what they think because the referendum, which was done by vladimir putin, was just a fake. we need a new referendum and it should be the start of what we're doing later. so the context here again comes back to donald trump, because whether it be on the ukraine—crimea issue of whether it be on syria, donald trump has indicated that he can foresee the easing of sanctions, maybe even the removal of us sanctions on russia if putin will work with him on what trump regards as the big priority, which is the fight againstjihadist terror, and the so—called islamic state movement. how would you feel if the united states eased sanctions against russia ?
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i cannot support this part | of sanctions which applied towards the russian economy, in general, since i'm a russian citizen. but i will definitely be very, very unhappy if mr trump will ease and cancel this part of the sanctions which apply to the particular personalities, like friends of vladimir putin, or putin's oligarchs or corrupt officials who were in his closest circle because actually these part of sanctions is very nice for the russian people and it's supported by the russian people. but, to put it bluntly, do you think donald trump cares about issues inside russia, human rights, freedom, democracy? absolutely not. and i would say that the previous administration and the previous administration before 0bama didn't care about this as well. practically, you know? some of them said something but in general theyjust don't care
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and i don't have any delusion about this. you have, from the very beginning of your political activity, focused on corruption. you talked from the very beginning about putin's regime being a regime of crooks and thieves. has it changed in any way during the decade that you've been working on anti—corruption activities? yes, it's changed, it's become bigger. now, putin's friends, his very close circle of friends, theyjust replaced the russian economy itself. 90% of the government procurement is his friends and he has literally maybe five people who just grab all of the russian economy, all government procurements, all government contracts. all roads, all bridges, all tunnels are constructed in russia by mr rotenberg, and mr timchenko, who was the closest associate of mr putin. they are doing everything, they are supplying equipment
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for gazprom, they're supplying pharmacy, supplying medical equipment, etc, etc. so let me get this straight — you're saying things have gotten worse, the corruption is more rampant, the cronyism is terrible and yet putin's approval rating is at 86%. it suggests to me that the russian people don't care. well, this is a major mistake that people doing when they discuss putin's regime, because they are always referring to this approval rating and it's a mistake to compare russia, which is an authoritarian country right now, to undeveloped democracy like we have in eastern europe, for example. we should compare russia to the countries like uzbekistan and tajikistan or zimbabwe, all of these countries. the leaders, they have a rating of 95% and it is just a specific of an authoritarian regime, they have a maximum rating of approval until the very end of their life. so...
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but i want to ask you, could you tell me, please, what was the support of the soviet... ..uh, union of the soviet communist party in our country in 1985? 100%. and then, what was the approval of the russian tsar in 1916? more than 100%. but it means nothing, actually. and even in 2011, the rating of putin was about 70%, but out of the blue, hundreds of thousands of people came to the streets asking mr putin to go away. right, but hundreds of thousands are not coming onto the streets today. you had your moment when you ran for the moscow mayoralty in 2013. i think you ended up getting 27% of the vote. that, in a sense, was the high water mark for you. things have not been so good since and now, frankly, you are in deep trouble.
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when you leave this interview with me you have to go to kirov to face yet another court case where you're accused of embezzlement, and if you lose the case you're going to face a new sentence which could involve... but i have the same in 2012, before my mayoral election. i have the same before this rally in moscow's streets and, i guess, from 2010 i've never had a day in my life when i wasn't under criminal prosecution because that's how they fight me. that's true. you've had convictions, you've had house arrest, you may well end up in prison again. your brother is currently in prison in solitary confinement. yes. right. you know that you're treading a very fine line and if you go one inch too far, you'll end up in prison or, who knows. i definitely don't draw
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this line for myself. ijust do what i can do in this particular moment and i don't care about what the kremlin is doing, what their strategy is about keeping me in prison or releasing me. maybe you know that i had actually a moment when they imprisoned me for five years and i spent a night in the prison knowing nothing about what was going on in moscow when tens of thousands of people came to the streets and they forced, actually, vladimir putin to release me. these people who came into the streets, they're not gone, they're still living in the city, they're still living in the country, and i'm absolutely 100% sure that my programme for this presidential election is the programme based on the needs of the majority of people. let me stop you there. right. are you absolutely determined, you talk about your run for the presidency, you're determined, come what may, to challenge vladimir putin in the election, which we believe will come in 2018. you are going to run, are you?
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yes. i'm going to run and... well, i'm not a naive person. i understand that the kremlin is very unhappy with me running and i understand that they will do everything to prevent me from running. and, recently, several kremlin officials said, "he's not allowed to participate," but still, i'm going to appeal to the people and ask for their support. i mean, in this office where we speak, you've already got your logos organised, navalny 2018, but i put it to you that if you lose this court case in kirov, based on accusations of embezzlement and fraud, you will be barred from running and whatever you tell me about your determination... it doesn't. .. actually doesn't nothing in the current... well, as i said, they imprisoned me for five years and they released me the next day. so you think... what kind of law? the same with my participation in the mayoral election. it was almost impossible to participate, but when people came
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to the streets and said we're not going to recognise this election without him participating... so you think you can use people power against putin? absolutely. actually, it's the only tool i can use. it's all i have. but, mr navalny, i'm tempted to say to you, get real. you know what happened to khodorkovsky, you know what happened to kasparov, who is now in exile, you know what happened to boris nemtsov. are you telling me to get real? i am real, i can assure you that i'm real. and i have my brother spending time injail, he's took away from his family and, as you mentioned, he's in solitary confinement. and they are really torturing him every time when i'm issuing new investigations, so i'm a guy from real life here in russia. i understand everything and i do believe that people's support can prevail against this strategy putin has against me. boris nemtsov, whom you knew very well, was walking down a streetjust a couple of hundred metres
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from the kremlin when he was murdered. that is the reality of moscow today. you're not immune from that. in this particular room, i had a meeting with him and volunteers who were preparing the big rally. after this meeting with the volunteers, we went on the street and i was arrested for 15 days and he was killed a week later. so i understand what's going on in russia and i understand there are a lot of risks and i understand the danger, but this is my country, i'm going to fight for my country and i know that i'm right and i know that the development of the country is much better than capturing new territories. look at the map, we're quite a bit country, we don't need new territories, and i'm sure that i will explain to the russian people that my alternative is better than vladimir putin. let me just ask you one, perhaps, strange question. why do you think you are free to walk the streets of moscow today?
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so many other opposition people are not but you are. could it be that you are useful to vladimir putin because he can always say, "ah, look, we are a democracy because alexei navalny "is allowed to do his thing, "he's allowed to talk to the bbc, he's allowed to run "his anti—corruption office, that proves what a free "and democratic place we are?" you could be a useful tool to vladimir putin. i don't know about that. yes, i'm allowed to talk to the bbc, but unfortunately i'm not allowed to talk to the russian tv stations. you had an interview with mr peskov and you asked him about me several times. did he ever mention my name? the same as putin. even pro—kremlinjournalists, they are laughing about the situation because for all these years, he never mentioned my name. he's afraid of... ..not about me, but he's afraid of the people who i represent. you talk about dmitry peskov, who i'm going to see again injust a couple of days' time. he seems supremely confident that
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vladimir putin has a grip on this country that will not be relinquished. what would you say to peskov that might undermine his confidence? well, i guess, a lot of russian people havejust a major question to mr peskov, and the question is, why are you lying all the time? for decades, he's never said a single word of truth. he's lying all the time. and how does he manage to deal with himself? he's getting up in the morning, look at him in the mirror, and said to himself, "today, iwill, again, "i will live as a lying human being." the problem is, as you've said in this interview, you don't get access to russian state tv, you do not get
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the sort of media coverage. i never had. you can't win. that's the problem, you just cannot win in the system that russia has today. i can and i will. so how do you do it? how do you mobilize these people you claim are out there, all of the anti—putin feeling that you say is in russia today, how do you mobilize it and turn it into a political campaign? well, we started our campaignjust a month ago and so far i have 20,000 volunteers registered in my campaign. it's the biggest amount of volunteers we ever had in the history of modern russia. yes, you're absolutely right, i don't have access to tv. i never had because vladimir putin took over the last independent tv station in 2001, so i never had coverage from the state media but i can operate without them. in 2013, in the moscow mayoral election, without money, without access to the media, i got almost 30% and i'm totally
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sure that i would have won in the second tour if in the first tour they didn't make the usual fraud in the election. we talked earlier about your brother who is in prison, in solitary confinement. it was a court case which involved you and him but, ironically, he was sent to prison and you escaped prison. he wrote to you recently. he said this, he said, "alexey, you cannot, "you must not stop and give in to their demands. "even if you are considering quitting, "it is out of the question." at what point would you decide that this is not worth it, that you've had enough? i really hope that it will be never such a moment and i decide this because it means that everything is useless what i've done before. all these sacrifices made from my family, my brother, made by boris nemtsov, who was killed, who was shot
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in the back, close to the kremlin. a lot of other people. we have political prisoners, hundreds of them all over russia, and if i will stop, it means all these sacrifices are useless. and they are not. and i do believe in what i'm doing and i do believe that my alternative is better for russia. and i'm absolutely agreed, and i'm absolutely sure that we will succeed and i believe in victory. and, yes... and when you think... we have a tough time right now, and this imperial delusion, yes, but trends, political trends are changing. people became poor, people are asking questions, and i have the support from family and from the people and i'm not going to let them down. alexei navalny, we have to end there but thank you for being on hardtalk. thank you.
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hello there. recently temperatures have been pretty balmy for the time of year, 17,18 degrees in the sunshine, it's felt spring—like. it's going to stay mild into this weekend as well, both saturday and sunday. but we will have some weather fronts pushing in during the latter parts of saturday, bringing outbreaks of rain. you can see the orange colours moving in as we head through saturday. that temperature may be a little bit higher than what we had on friday. a lot of cloud around on saturday. there will be some thick cloud with some spots of rain in scotland, northern england. glimmers of brightness here in there, particularly eastern england. but then the rain splashes into northern ireland, spreads across the irish sea into western britain as you move through saturday afternoon. those temperatures well above what they should be for february, 12 to 1a degrees.
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now, those weather fronts spread across the country during saturday night, should clear much of the north of the uk, but there's still a question mark to how quickly these fronts clear england and wales as we head on into sunday. so it could be quite a wet start for england and wales and there could be a bit of a hangback across northern eastern england for a time. so east anglia and southeast continue to see the clouds and some spots of rain throughout the whole day, but elsewhere brightens up nicely. the best of the dry and bright weather in scotland and northern ireland. and again, although temperatures will be a degree of so down across the north, it's still going to be mild for the time of year. and then as we head into monday, we have high pressure located to the south west of the uk, sporadic weather fronts travelling from west to east across its northern periphery. one such front will spread across the country during monday, barely anything on it as it starts to push in towards eastern england, some showery bursts of rain. behind it, skies bright and plenty of sunshine, in fact. but the air will be just that little bit fresh.
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we're looking at 8 to 11 degrees in the north, 12 to 13 further south. and as we move into tuesday, a more substantial frontal system will start to push into northern and western areas, we think, isobars closer together. so a breezy day, i think on tuesday. that's the theme of things to come. it will be turning windier later in the week. i'll show you that in just a moment. but that way the front sinks its way southwards, brightening up a turning chillier across scotland, where it'll be breezy, single digits here with a few wintry showers, certainly over higher ground. but generally, most of the country is going to be mild. again, fairly breezy with outbreaks of rain, quite a lot of cloud into wednesday. it looks like we'll see a more substantial area of low pressure spread across the country. so a windier day, i think, to come for all. and the rain will be pretty widespread at the moment. it looks like it could be quite a blustery, wet morning on wednesday. most of the rain clears away to leave sunshine, blustery showers. again, some of these wintry elements and them in the northwest is some again, some of these have
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wintry elements and them and in the northwest is some cooler air will start to move in behind this front during the course of wednesday. but ahead of it, still into the low teens. but the jet stream does take a dive south as we think from the middle part of the week onwards. and in this trough, we could see deeper areas of low pressure develop, which could bring spells of gales and it will feel noticeably cooler. but that doesn't last. we'll be back to that flip—flopping, milder, cooler regime as we push into the following week. and you can see that evidence here that colder air starts to dive south eastwards on the north westerly wind. and in that trough of the diving jet, we could see some deeper areas of low pressure developing. this one could bring a swathe of gales as we push towards the end of next week. so it will be unsettled, certainly from wednesday onwards, the winds will start to pick up. there will be spells of heavy rainfall. and with that colder air engaging in across the country, temperatures returning a bit closer to the seasonal norm. but we could see wintriness over the high ground in the north.
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live from london, this is bbc news. as demonstrations and vigils continue around the world, alexei navalny�*s spokeswoman confirms his death. we speak to her this hour as supporters try to learn where his body is. and so we don't have any clue where he is now and what is happening to him. human rights activists say more than 100 people are across russia for attending rallies and vigils in memory of mr navalny. at the munich security conference, volodymyr zelensky warns alexei navalny�*s death highlights the dangers of the putin regime. putin kills whoever he wants, be it
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an opposition leader or anyone else who seems as a target exactly to him. in a landmark fraud case, a new yorkjudge orders donald trump to pay more than $350 million. mr trump says he will appeal. supporters of alexei navalny have confirmed his death in prison. kira yarmysh — mr navalny�*s spokesperson — said an official note had been given to his mother. ms yarmysh — who we will hear from shortly — demanded that mr navalny�*s body be handed over to the family immediately. as vigils continue, more than 100 people are reported to have been detained in cities across russia. shrines in honour of mr navalny have appeared across russia, in defiance of the authorities.

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