labour mm pa had its own labour pa had its own -roblems, too. the party had its own problems, too. the spectre of anti—semitism returned. the two candidates suspended this week after their comments were leaked. it week after their comments were leaked. , . ., leaked. it is a huge thing to withdraw — leaked. it is a huge thing to withdraw support _ leaked. it is a huge thing to withdraw support for - leaked. it is a huge thing to withdraw support for a - leaked. it is a huge thing to l withdraw support for a labour candidate. it's a tough decision, a necessary decision. and the death of alexei navalny, russian opposition politician, reminded our leaders this week of the challenges abroad. we are asking this morning, how can our politicians, the storm? the man who wants to be the next foreign secretary has been mingling with other leaders in munich. david lammyjoins us. anotherfamily waits. the wife of a different political prisoner in russia. after by—election batteries, conservative minister michael thomason is here. wake up. i want to say something. wake up. i want to say something.

wake up. i want to say something. wake up. you might know him from the crown from doctor who, so get ready to wake up for actor matt smith. good morning. with me at the desk throughout, actress and author tracy. as comfortable and albert square as on the west end stage, douglas alexander, now planting a comeback as an mp. and robert buckland who was in borisjohnson �*s cabinets, hoping to hang onto his seat. let's start as ever with what is making the news this morning. the sunday times claims russian intelligence officers visited alexei navalny in jailjust intelligence officers visited alexei navalny in jail just two intelligence officers visited alexei navalny in jailjust two days before his death. and the sacked boss of the post office tells the paper the

government did try to delay compensation to postmasters until after the action. the observer says ukraine is pleading for more arms as the war �*s red two year anniversary approaches this week. the sunday telegraph talks about keir starmer accusing donald trump of bad faith in his comments about nato. and three of the tabloids join in all saying there is no way back for prince harry to any royal role. douglas, you were foreign affairs minister with responsibility for russia so why did it take politicians so long to realise putin was such a bad guy? the politicians so long to realise putin was such a bad guy?— was such a bad guy? the west collectively — was such a bad guy? the west collectively was _ was such a bad guy? the west collectively was too _ was such a bad guy? the west collectively was too slow - was such a bad guy? the west collectively was too slow in - collectively was too slow in recognising his character. george w bush gave an interview in 2001 and said i have looked in this man's eyes and he is honest and straightforward. the reality is

putin never accepted the outcome of the cold war. he said the greatest tragedy of the 20th century was the collapse of the soviet union, and this was a country that lost 30 million people during the second world war. so the reality, the true character of the man has been revealed this week. we have seen not just navalny first imprisoned, then poisoned, then sent to an arctic penal connolly, the kremlin have heavy responsibility and i fear have blood on their hands, coming just two years next week after the invasion of ukraine.— two years next week after the invasion of ukraine. robert, you were in government _ invasion of ukraine. robert, you were in government when - invasion of ukraine. robert, you were in government when other| were in government when other activists were poisoned, so why do you think governments did take so long? i you think governments did take so lona ? ~ , . you think governments did take so lon. ? ~ , ., ., you think governments did take so lona ? ~' , ., ., , long? i think they wanted to believe that russia had _ long? i think they wanted to believe that russia had changed, _ long? i think they wanted to believe that russia had changed, and - long? i think they wanted to believe that russia had changed, and they l that russia had changed, and they wanted _ that russia had changed, and they wanted to— that russia had changed, and they wanted to think that they had somebody who was stable, he was committed to the same values as the rest of— committed to the same values as the rest of us _ committed to the same values as the rest of us it— committed to the same values as the rest of us. it is a familiar pattern in history. — rest of us. it is a familiar pattern in history, sadly. now it is quite clear— in history, sadly. now it is quite clear that — in history, sadly. now it is quite clear that the russians seem to

think— clear that the russians seem to think that — clear that the russians seem to think that acts of omission are direct— think that acts of omission are direct acts _ think that acts of omission are direct acts of commission. in other words, _ direct acts of commission. in other words. you — direct acts of commission. in other words, you deliberately neglect people — words, you deliberately neglect people. it is what has happened to alexei _ people. it is what has happened to alexei navalny. at the world is wise to this _ alexei navalny. at the world is wise to this we — alexei navalny. at the world is wise to this. we know that omission is 'ust to this. we know that omission is just as _ to this. we know that omission is just as had — to this. we know that omission is just as bad and they have blood on their hands— just as bad and they have blood on their hands and they need to answer for their— their hands and they need to answer for their crime.— for their crime. tracy and, 'ust as a human being. i for their crime. tracy and, 'ust as a human being, what h for their crime. tracy and, 'ust as a human being, what did _ for their crime. tracy and, just as a human being, what did you - for their crime. tracy and, just as i a human being, what did you think? i'm deeply sad. navalny was a brave, brave _ i'm deeply sad. navalny was a brave, brave man _ i'm deeply sad. navalny was a brave, brave man he — i'm deeply sad. navalny was a brave, brave man. he effectively— i'm deeply sad. navalny was a brave, brave man. he effectively sacrificed i brave man. he effectively sacrificed himself— brave man. he effectively sacrificed himself to _ brave man. he effectively sacrificed himself to he — brave man. he effectively sacrificed himself to be an _ brave man. he effectively sacrificed himself to be an opponent - brave man. he effectively sacrificed himself to be an opponent of - brave man. he effectively sacrificed himself to be an opponent of putinl himself to be an opponent of putin and he _ himself to be an opponent of putin and he took— himself to be an opponent of putin and he took -- _ himself to be an opponent of putin and he took —— took— himself to be an opponent of putin and he took —— took it— himself to be an opponent of putin and he took —— took it upon- himself to be an opponent of putinl and he took —— took it upon himself to say— and he took —— took it upon himself to say things — and he took —— took it upon himself to say things that _ and he took —— took it upon himself to say things that were _ and he took —— took it upon himselfl to say things that were unacceptable to say things that were unacceptable to putin _ to say things that were unacceptable to putin and — to say things that were unacceptable to putin and lost _ to say things that were unacceptable to putin and lost his— to say things that were unacceptable to putin and lost his life _ to say things that were unacceptable to putin and lost his life for- to say things that were unacceptable to putin and lost his life for it. - to putin and lost his life for it. in terms— to putin and lost his life for it. in terms of— to putin and lost his life for it. in terms of what _ to putin and lost his life for it. in terms of what should - to putin and lost his life for it. i in terms of what should happen to putin and lost his life for it. - in terms of what should happen next, you too have both been cabinet ministers, what could the uk government do? the ministers, what could the uk government do? ., , , ., government do? the measures we have taken to create — government do? the measures we have taken to create named _ government do? the measures we have taken to create named these _ government do? the measures we have taken to create named these bands - taken to create named these bands for people who have human rights

violations. {lat for people who have human rights violations. .., , for people who have human rights violations. _, , , violations. of course there will be a statement _ violations. of course there will be a statement in _ violations. of course there will be a statement in the _ violations. of course there will be a statement in the commons, - violations. of course there will be j a statement in the commons, but navalny— a statement in the commons, but navalny died in the cause of freedom. the grace best way we can honour— freedom. the grace best way we can honour his _ freedom. the grace best way we can honour his life is to help ukraine -- make— honour his life is to help ukraine -- make the— honour his life is to help ukraine —— make the greatest way. they have a limitless _ —— make the greatest way. they have a limitless level of courage but profoundly limited armaments. they need our— profoundly limited armaments. they need our help and we need to get the us package _ need our help and we need to get the us package out of the door and get that aid _ us package out of the door and get that aid and military support to where — that aid and military support to where it— that aid and military support to where it is— that aid and military support to where it is needed. we that aid and military support to where it is needed.— that aid and military support to where it is needed. we will talk about that _ where it is needed. we will talk about that later _ where it is needed. we will talk about that later on _ where it is needed. we will talk about that later on in _ where it is needed. we will talk about that later on in the - about that later on in the programme. in amongst all the diplomatic outrage, at its heart the death of alexei navalny is the loss of a husband and father. one brave individual and one brave family. but they are not the first to suffer at they are not the first to suffer at the hands of putin, and they are unlikely to be the last. you will probably remember the remarkable woman we met back injune, whose husband, vladimir, is an activist and journalist and has been locked up and journalist and has been locked up tjy and journalist and has been locked up by putin with a sentence of 25 years. she told us she believed his life was in danger full stop how

does she feel now? i life was in danger full stop how does she feel now?— life was in danger full stop how does she feel now? i was horrified, but not surprised. _ does she feel now? i was horrified, but not surprised. because - does she feel now? i was horrified, but not surprised. because the - does she feel now? i was horrified, but not surprised. because the use | but not surprised. because the use of political assassination as a way of political assassination as a way of dealing with political opponents has been there for the entire rule of vladimir putin. he has been using this method since early 2000. this was a murder, for which vladimir putin is responsible. all that impunity that lasted for decades led him to believe that somehow he is untouchable, and as long as he is sitting in the kremlin unchecked, we will see more repression, and we will see more repression, and we will see more deaths. you will see more repression, and we will see more deaths.— will see more repression, and we will see more deaths. you told us in june ou will see more deaths. you told us in june you feared _ will see more deaths. you told us in june you feared for _ will see more deaths. you told us in june you feared for the _ will see more deaths. you told us in june you feared for the life - will see more deaths. you told us in june you feared for the life of- will see more deaths. you told us in june you feared for the life of your l june you feared for the life of your husband. has what has happened the last couple of days increased that

sense of foreboding? i last couple of days increased that sense of foreboding?— sense of foreboding? i have been afraid for my _ sense of foreboding? i have been afraid for my husband _ sense of foreboding? i have been afraid for my husband 's - sense of foreboding? i have been afraid for my husband 's life - sense of foreboding? i have beenj afraid for my husband 's life since at least 2015. since that first call that received about vladimir collapsing in moscow and going into came up with multiple organ failure. for no reason at all. an absolutely healthy man with no medical conditions whatsoever, just collapsing and going into a coma with multiple organ famous. —— failure. i have slept with my phone since, dreading that call. i believe my husband 's life is in danger, as are the lives of many other prisoners in russian prison because these people are often kept behind bars often with serious medical conditions, with no proper treatment and they are kept in such conditions in order to make their state of health deteriorate. you in order to make their state of health deteriorate.— in order to make their state of health deteriorate. you must be on edae all health deteriorate. you must be on edge all the — health deteriorate. you must be on edge all the time. _ health deteriorate. you must be on edge all the time. you _ health deteriorate. you must be on edge all the time. you said - health deteriorate. you must be on edge all the time. you said you - edge all the time. you said you sleep with your phone. what goes

through your mind when it rains? with all that is happening, i cannot afford breaking down. i cannot afford breaking down. i cannot afford being afraid. i cannot afford just the normal human feeling of fear. i have to always fight that. step over it. say yes, i am afraid, but that is not important right now. continuing the fight is important. telling the stories of these people who are suffering from the regime is important. today, people are getting arrested for laying flowers to the memorials of our victims of repression. so that the situation is deteriorating, it seems, by the day. what would you like western leaders to do? rfleet what would you like western leaders to do? , .,

to do? get on the same page with hel to to do? get on the same page with help to ukraine. _ to do? get on the same page with help to ukraine. the _ to do? get on the same page with help to ukraine. the us _ to do? get on the same page with help to ukraine. the us congress| help to ukraine. the us congress have been debated that aid to ukraine for how long now? and they seem to be finally, finally agreeing that it seem to be finally, finally agreeing thatitis seem to be finally, finally agreeing that it is needed. but come on, did alexei navalny have to die for this to happen? vladimir putin will reappoint himself president of the russian federation in less than one month. foralmost russian federation in less than one month. for almost 25 years he has beenin month. for almost 25 years he has been in power. according to international organisations, the last free but not a fair election took place in 2003, so i have this question to the international community. will they may be, finally, say that vladimir putin is not a legitimate leader? when it comes to political prisoners, yes, more should be done to get those

whose lives are in danger out. these people who are being now slowly killed, these are, they represent that alternative to vladimir putin, and if they are not saved, who will be there to rebuild the country from scratch customer who is going to make russia into a democracy, if not these people who have stood up with their heads held high and said no? thank you so much forjoining us again. well, as this nightmare deepens, what can or should our politicians do? the annual security conference where leaders are gathering has an added urgency this year. david lammy, the shadow foreign secretary, is there with keir starmer and earlier this morning i asked him how he responded to her demand that putin be held to account.-

he responded to her demand that putin be held to account. look, we have been — putin be held to account. look, we have been calling _ putin be held to account. look, we have been calling for _ putin be held to account. look, we have been calling for a _ putin be held to account. look, we have been calling for a special - have been calling for a special tribunal for crimes of aggression, and against humanity. i would like to see putin in front of that special tribunal, to see putin in front of that specialtribunal, held to see putin in front of that special tribunal, held to account for all of his crimes, notjust in ukraine, but as we are seeing, just in the last 48 hours in russia as well. of course, as russia holds elections this year, it is important that the international community is able to verify that they are free and fair elections. i suspect, like we have seen in the past, that that will not happen. find we have seen in the past, that that will rrot happen-— will not happen. and if that does not will not happen. and if that does rrot happen. _ will not happen. and if that does rrot happen. mrs _ will not happen. and if that does not happen, mrs kara-murza - will not happen. and if that does | not happen, mrs kara-murza says will not happen. and if that does i not happen, mrs kara-murza says it not happen, mrs kara—murza says it is time for western politicians like you to say vladimir putin is not a legitimate leader, there have been no free and fair elections for more than 20 years. no free and fair elections for more than 20 years— no free and fair elections for more than 20 years. would you be ready to sa that?

than 20 years. would you be ready to say that? well. _ than 20 years. would you be ready to say that? well, let's _ than 20 years. would you be ready to say that? well, let's see _ than 20 years. would you be ready to say that? well, let's see what - say that? well, let's see what happens when those elections come to pass. there will be a statement from the prime minister or the foreign secretary in the house tomorrow on the situation in russia. they may well come forward with further sanctions, and of course if it is the case, it will be backed by labour. ., i. the case, it will be backed by labour. ., y., ., the case, it will be backed by labour. ., ., , labour. you say you would support the government, _ labour. you say you would support the government, and _ labour. you say you would support the government, and suggesting i labour. you say you would support - the government, and suggesting more sanctions but do you believe there ought to be more sanctions? what would labour do? if you were the foreign secretary right now, would you bring in new punishments for vladimir putin?— you bring in new punishments for vladimir putin? actually, the uk has led on sanctions. _ vladimir putin? actually, the uk has led on sanctions. the _ vladimir putin? actually, the uk has led on sanctions. the issue - vladimir putin? actually, the uk has led on sanctions. the issue now- vladimir putin? actually, the uk has led on sanctions. the issue now is i led on sanctions. the issue now is the enforcement of those sanctions. if we do have the prevalence to serve, that is the area in which i will look more closely to ensure that there is the proper cooperation across the foreign office and the treasury. d0

across the foreign office and the treasu . , ., ~ across the foreign office and the treasu . ,, ~' , across the foreign office and the treasu . i. ~ , ., across the foreign office and the treasu . ~ , ., ., treasury. do you think they are not bein: treasury. do you think they are not being properly _ treasury. do you think they are not being properly enforced _ treasury. do you think they are not being properly enforced right - treasury. do you think they are not being properly enforced right now? treasury. do you think they are not. being properly enforced right now? i remain concerned about the dirty money that continues to flow through london. i remain concerned that the full implementation of the russia report, this was following the interference in our elections and the work of our select committee, have not been fully implemented. so yes, i think there are gaps and if we are successful when the general election is held, i intend to plug those gaps. election is held, i intend to plug those gaps-— election is held, i intend to plug those as. ., ., those gaps. you mentioned there talkin: to those gaps. you mentioned there talking to american _ those gaps. you mentioned there talking to american politicians - those gaps. you mentioned there l talking to american politicians who have met at the munich conference where you are. keir starmer has had a p0p where you are. keir starmer has had a pop at donald trump 's attitude to nato in the pages of the sunday telegraph this morning and you have previously called donald trump a woman hating neo nazi sympathiser. have you changed your views of him? look, the truth is you will be hard to find anybody who was in parliament on any side who has not

had views on some of the rhetoric that donald trump has used in the past. indeed, david cameron described him as misogynistic and xenophobic in his own book. we will work with whomever is in the white house. it doesn't matter, frankly, who is the incumbent of number ten or the white house. we are the closest of allies. it is a prevailing and a strong partnership and it will remain that and we should not get too carried away with the rhetoric that of course we will hear over the course of the next few months in an election cycle but we have got to look at the action. let's talk about a different part of the world, what is happening in the middle east right now. another vote is coming up in the commons this week calling for an immediate ceasefire in gaza. labour in scotland backed that yesterday. what is wrong with that position, and will labour support that motion in the commons this week?-

will labour support that motion in the commons this week? well, we all want to see — the commons this week? well, we all want to see an — the commons this week? well, we all want to see an end _ the commons this week? well, we all want to see an end to _ the commons this week? well, we all want to see an end to the _ the commons this week? well, we all want to see an end to the fighting. . want to see an end to the fighting. it must stop. over 28,000 people have lost their lives. women and children. you know, one of my children. you know, one of my children is adopted. 17,000 orphans now in gaza. it is just abominable. of course people want to see a ceasefire. the question now is how, and to be absolutely clear that when that ceasefire comes, we can't see the fighting restart. so that ceasefire comes, we can't see the fighting restart.— the fighting restart. so will you vote for it _ the fighting restart. so will you vote for it in _ the fighting restart. so will you vote for it in the _ the fighting restart. so will you vote for it in the house - the fighting restart. so will you vote for it in the house of - the fighting restart. so will you - vote for it in the house of commons this week? . �* , , vote for it in the house of commons this week? ., �* , , ., vote for it in the house of commons this week?— this week? that's why i have been here with keir _ this week? that's why i have been here with keir starmer, _ this week? that's why i have been here with keir starmer, speaking l this week? that's why i have been l here with keir starmer, speaking to the saudi arabians, the people in qatari, european allies and i have not seen the motion. it is not yet put down. we will scrutinise that motion as is our way in parliament and that will come in on monday, i suspect, or tuesday. we will take it

from there. let us be clear. yes, we will have a vote in parliament this week, but it is not that vote that will bring about a ceasefire. it is the diplomatic action, it is hamas, it is netanyahu, it is partners for peace saying the fighting must now stop. peace saying the fighting must now sto -. peace saying the fighting must now sto . _ ., ., peace saying the fighting must now sto -. ., ., ., , peace saying the fighting must now sto. ., ., , , , , stop. the motion has been published alread and stop. the motion has been published already and we _ stop. the motion has been published already and we have _ stop. the motion has been published already and we have got _ stop. the motion has been published already and we have got it _ stop. the motion has been published already and we have got it here. - stop. the motion has been published already and we have got it here. the| already and we have got it here. the snp motion says "this calls for an immediate ceasefire in gaza and israel. it notes with shock and distress that the death toll has risen beyond 28,000." that is the motion, it is crystal clear, so will labour vote for it? i motion, it is crystal clear, so will labour vote for it?— motion, it is crystal clear, so will labour vote for it? i have seen that swellin: labour vote for it? i have seen that swelling around _ labour vote for it? i have seen that swelling around social— labour vote for it? i have seen that swelling around social media, - labour vote for it? i have seen that swelling around social media, but l swelling around social media, but thatis swelling around social media, but that is not emotion. that is just a form of words swirling around social media and i don't think that was the entirety that you read out, and it is why i say that in all seriousness, given the tremendous

loss of life, given the fact that we have also said in my party that we now need to have palestinian recognition as a road map to that piece, and partners to achieve that, we have got to get to a two state solution, we need a contact group, you can see the complexity of this and that does require us to look happily at emotion, not to comment on words that are flying around social media. ijust don't think thatis social media. ijust don't think that is the place to conduct proper diplomacy. that is the place to conduct proper diloma . ., _, ., diplomacy. your colleague, the scottish labour _ diplomacy. your colleague, the scottish labour leader - diplomacy. your colleague, the scottish labour leader anas - diplomacy. your colleague, the - scottish labour leader anas sarwar says the motion looks perfectly reasonable. scottish labour yesterday voted for the motion of backing an immediate ceasefire so why can't you?— why can't you? well, look, i'm sa in: why can't you? well, look, i'm saying that _ why can't you? well, look, i'm saying that i — why can't you? well, look, i'm saying that i fully _ why can't you? well, look, i'm saying that i fully understand i why can't you? well, look, i'm i saying that i fully understand why scottish colleagues want the fighting to stop now and we have been saying that for weeks. so we agree with them, we want the sighting to stop now. i am not sure that what is flying around on social media says anything about it being

sustainable. you can have a ceasefire that locks for a few days. we want the ceasefire to last and to be permanent, and to move towards the diplomatic solution which can only be a political solution to bring an end to this. it is very clear there — bring an end to this. it is very clear there are _ bring an end to this. it is very clear there are tensions - bring an end to this. it is very| clear there are tensions inside bring an end to this. it is very - clear there are tensions inside your party over how the leadership has been handling this question of the conflict in gaza, and it has again heighten the atmosphere around peoples attitude towards anti—semitism. everybody knows labour has had terrible problems this week around its parliamentary candidates with those losing their positions because of remarks made at a meeting. why was it not obvious that his suggestion that israel had known in advance about the october the 7th attacks, why was it not obvious that that was unacceptable and he ought to be suspended? i am sor that and he ought to be suspended? i am sorry that the _ and he ought to be suspended? i am sorry that the initial _ and he ought to be suspended? i —n sorry that the initialjudgment was sorry that the initial judgment was that he had made an apology, the

cabinet had made an apology and we could move forward. moore came to light and it was right that keir starmer acted decisively, i'm afraid, to suspend him and to withdraw our support to him as a labour candidate. it does mean that the people of rochdale will not have a labour candidate on the ticket and i am very sorry that they will not be able to vote labour but i absolutely stand by that decision not to support a candidate that had come up with a whole series of anti—semitic tropes. i spent my whole political career fighting racism wherever it is fined, standing with jewish racism wherever it is fined, standing withjewish people and saying enough is enough outside of parliament and we cannot have any chuck with anti—semitism in our party. chuck with anti-semitism in our la . ., chuck with anti-semitism in our -a . ., ., chuck with anti-semitism in our party. you have said that you are sorry that — party. you have said that you are sorry that the — party. you have said that you are sorry that the initial _ party. you have said that you are sorry that the initialjudgment i sorry that the initial judgment turned out to be the wrong one, so can our viewers really have confidence in the people that labour

is putting forward to stand as mps when this kind of thing happens? look, i think that my senses because colleagues are coming back to the labour party, that the equalities and human rights commission has given their verdict and have said that progress has been made, and hopefully clearly keir starmer has led from the front on this issue. we have turned the page on this issue. that doesn't mean, of course, no organisation in the country would say that sadly there are not people who want leadership positions, who do not make unacceptable mistakes, and therefore have to be suspended or disciplined as a result of that. but i was in peterborough a few weeks ago with our new candidates. they are fresh, they are young, they

have ability, they have track records. beyond labour politics. many of them are professionals. i believe that this next parliament is going to be very, very healthy when we hopefully see labour picking up seats and those new candidates coming into parliament.- seats and those new candidates coming into parliament. david lammy, thank ou coming into parliament. david lammy, thank you for— coming into parliament. david lammy, thank you forjoining _ coming into parliament. david lammy, thank you forjoining us _ coming into parliament. david lammy, thank you forjoining us from _ thank you forjoining us from munich. well, labour is still having to grapple with anti—semitism. in the same week that the community security trust, the jewish charity, reported a surge in the number of claims of hate againstjewish people. and more than 4020 23, compared to around 1600 of the year before. two thirds of those incidents reported on or after the hamas attacks on the 7th of october. robin silcox is the commissioner for countering extremism and hejoins us in the studio. welcome to you. you wrote in the autumn that the uk had become a permissive environment for anti—semitism. the numbers suggest

it has got worse since then. do you think that has happened, and why? yes, this is something that has been ongoing now for six months really, since the hamas attacks on israel unleashed something quite ugly. i think it was residing under the surface. the community security trust outlines this huge increase in assault, abuse, threats towards jewish people. it is completely unacceptable. you don't want to speak on behalf of thejewish community but i think there is fear there, i think they feel that they have not or has been defended especially well, and i think this speaks to a broader problem in society. thisjust can't speaks to a broader problem in society. this just can't be about british jewish people, society. this just can't be about britishjewish people, i think we have to ask ourselves, are we doing enough as a society to speak up against this question mark an organisation like mine has a role in this, also civil society and government.— this, also civil society and government. this, also civil society and rovernment. ., , ., government. what should the government _ government. what should the government do, _ government. what should the government do, do _ government. what should the government do, do you - government. what should the i government do, do you believe, government. what should the - government do, do you believe, to stop this? government do, do you believe, to sto this? ~ .,

stop this? well, i think the government _ stop this? well, i think the government has _ stop this? well, i think the government has done - stop this? well, i think the government has done a - stop this? well, i think the government has done a lotj stop this? well, i think the - government has done a lot and rhetorically the prime minister has been very good and they have made steps like giving more money to the security trust, the anti—bds bill, some of the legislation around the protest, but i think there is a chance to go further, go faster and be bolder. sometimes we think about the legislative question and there is a question around the glorification of terrorism which is ongoing, and whether it is currently in the right place, but also using powers we already have. i'll be disrupting groups that operate low the criminal threshold customer we doing to stop abuse of charities by extremist? abuse of broadcast licence by extremist customers are we making sure that no public money goes to extremist groups? they are areas where i think the covenant can do more. 50 areas where i think the covenant can do more. , _, , areas where i think the covenant can do more. , , ., do more. so they could be more aggressive _ do more. so they could be more aggressive in — do more. so they could be more aggressive in using _ do more. so they could be more aggressive in using the - do more. so they could be more aggressive in using the powers i do more. so they could be more i aggressive in using the powers they have? i aggressive in using the powers they have? ., aggressive in using the powers they have? ~ _, , have? i think we could place the macro play _ have? i think we could place the macro play closer _ have? i think we could place the macro play closer to _ have? i think we could place the macro play closer to the - have? i think we could place the macro play closer to the edge i have? i think we could place the macro play closer to the edge of have? i think we could place the - macro play closer to the edge of the line. there has been caution and timidity. i would argue this has been the case for decades, and is part of the reason we are in the state we are in. so you think this

government and perhaps previous have been too timid to act, that you yourself previously have suggested the rise in anti—semitism is a failed policy mix of mass migration and multiculturalism. what did you mean by that? i think some of our viewers listening to that might find that quite a strong thing to say, sort of pointing the finger at migrants for the rise in anti—semitism. migrants for the rise in anti-semitism.- migrants for the rise in anti-semitism. ., ., ., , anti-semitism. no, not migrants. i think we all. _ anti-semitism. no, not migrants. i think we all, most _ anti-semitism. no, not migrants. i think we all, most people - anti-semitism. no, not migrants. i think we all, most people in - anti-semitism. no, not migrants. i think we all, most people in this i think we all, most people in this country relished the fact that it is this fantastic multiethnic democracy, one of the most successful ones in the world. what i have been talking about is the fact that to sustain that, to defend that, essentially all of us living in this country need to be able, we can't always think of the same hymn sheet but we need to have a basic awareness of the tune. that means that when parallel societies develop in one country, people are living parallel lives without any ability to integrate and generally i think that leads to a more divided

society. i think that is some of the reasons why we have what i have talked about before, this permissive environment for extremism in this country, because we are beginning to lose that united you about what this country is. lose that united you about what this count is. , ,, lose that united you about what this count is. , , ~ ., ,., country is. this past week, labour has aaain country is. this past week, labour has again faced _ country is. this past week, labour has again faced criticism - country is. this past week, labour has again faced criticism of - country is. this past week, labour has again faced criticism of how. has again faced criticism of how they have handled anti—semitism. david lammy, you heard him tell us that he essentially thinks the party is now on top of the issue, although he was sorry what happened this past week. do you think they are on top of this? ~ ., ,., .,, week. do you think they are on top ofthis?~ ., ., _ of this? well, labour has obviously had historic— of this? well, labour has obviously had historic problems _ of this? well, labour has obviously had historic problems with - of this? well, labour has obviously had historic problems with this, i of this? well, labour has obviously| had historic problems with this, and i would not want to politicise the problem because i think this goes beyond the labour party. the events of the past week demonstrate the very specific problem we face, where there is this idea that some of the sentiment in rochdale said there was a jewish control of the media, or israel allowed the attacks in gaza to take place somewhat deliberately, and i think this speaks to a broader problem around conspiracies and that

is involved withjewish people that is involved withjewish people that is notjust is involved withjewish people that is not just a is involved withjewish people that is notjust a modern labour problem, but this goes back centuries. this idea ofjewish control. again, i come back to the idea that this needs challenging on all forms of society, by all forms.— needs challenging on all forms of society, by all forms. what about is lamb a phobia? _ society, by all forms. what about is lamb a phobia? the _ society, by all forms. what about is lamb a phobia? the met _ society, by all forms. what about is lamb a phobia? the met published | lamb a phobia? the met published figures say there's been a significant rise in this since these attacks. —— islamophobia. isee this very pronounced in the extreme right wing. this distrust, this hatred of muslims, this attempt to try to poison opinion against them. as you have cited, these figures demonstrate this is an ongoing problem, one need to be aware of and one we need to take action over. we like to think of ourselves as a modern society where everyone is welcome, but listening to you this morning, do you think things are getting worse? i

morning, do you think things are getting worse?— getting worse? i do, yes. i don't like to say _ getting worse? i do, yes. i don't like to say it. — getting worse? i do, yes. i don't like to say it, it _ getting worse? i do, yes. i don't like to say it, it is _ getting worse? i do, yes. i don't like to say it, it is a _ getting worse? i do, yes. i don't like to say it, it is a depressing i like to say it, it is a depressing thing to say, but i feel even just in my time in thejob, which is coming up to three years, i think things have got worse in this country and i think that should be a cause of reflection for us all. thank you so much forjoining us in the studio. fascinating talking to you. you can join in the conversation as well. let's see then what our panel made of the conversations we have been having this morning. tracy, we spoke to david lammy about the attitude of labour towards anti—semitism. we just heard from robin there, and this is something you have taken a keen interest in. do you feel labour has resolved this problem? i keen interest in. do you feel labour has resolved this problem?- has resolved this problem? i think the last week _ has resolved this problem? i think the last week has _ has resolved this problem? i think the last week has been _ has resolved this problem? i think the last week has been shocking l has resolved this problem? i think i the last week has been shocking and very upsetting. we are living, i'm doing a play at the moment, the merchant of venice and i play a

female shylock, or the anti—semitism from hitler, desecration ofjewish schools, smashing of synagogues, all this went on in the 30s and we are seeing a rise of it now. what happened in labour, the progressive left has a huge problem with understanding and seeing what anti—semitism, anti—jewish hatred is. as the headlines have shown this week, the rise in attacks onjewish students, onjewish pupils at schools, the fact that a policeman had to tell a man to hide his star of david because it was seen as an incitement, the fact that i, a jewish actress, have got to have security for putting on the merchant of venice in the west end, this is frightening. many of the attacks that we are getting are coming from the progressive left. you know where you are with the right. you know where you are with hatred on the right and the far right. it is on the left and people that see

themselves as freedom fighters that is so deeply upsetting. and themselves as freedom fighters that is so deeply upsetting.— themselves as freedom fighters that is so deeply upsetting. and you were a member of — is so deeply upsetting. and you were a member of the _ is so deeply upsetting. and you were a member of the labour _ is so deeply upsetting. and you were a member of the labour party - is so deeply upsetting. and you were a member of the labour party that i a member of the labour party that left in 2016, partly because of this concern? ~ ,,., y left in 2016, partly because of this concern? ~ , y . concern? absolutely. when the grown-ups _ concern? absolutely. when the grown-ups in — concern? absolutely. when the grown-ups in the _ concern? absolutely. when the grown-ups in the room, - concern? absolutely. when the grown-ups in the room, the i grown—ups in the room, the politicians, are not standing up to deeply anti—semitic vernacular, all these medieval tribes ofjewish these medieval tribes of jewish people these medieval tribes ofjewish people controlling, and if that we controlled the media we would do better than is happening now. better than what is happening now. he would not have these letters of apology for systemic anti—semitism appearing in the bbc. we are living through difficult times. and the problem is, you can be absolutely appalled by what is going on in gaza. you can absolutely hate what netanyahu and his government is doing, but to conflate that with the jewish community in britain, and to allow a rise in hatred towards jewish people across the board is a real problem. what starts with the jewish people does not end there.

we have responsibilities to each other— we have responsibilities to each other to — we have responsibilities to each other to preserve the very freedoms we fought— other to preserve the very freedoms we fought in generations we pass to retain _ we fought in generations we pass to retain. . . , we fought in generations we pass to retain. . , , we fought in generations we pass to retain. , . ., , retain. tracy said very clearly, our retain. tracy said very clearly, your party _ retain. tracy said very clearly, your party still— retain. tracy said very clearly, your party still has _ retain. tracy said very clearly, your party still has a - retain. tracy said very clearly, your party still has a problem | retain. tracy said very clearly, - your party still has a problem with this in heavy. i

your party still has a problem with this in heavy-— this in heavy. i think the whole of british society _ this in heavy. i think the whole of british society has _ this in heavy. i think the whole of british society has a _ this in heavy. i think the whole of british society has a problem - this in heavy. i think the whole of| british society has a problem with this _ british society has a problem with this we — british society has a problem with this we saw— british society has a problem with this. we saw the _ british society has a problem with this. we saw the evidence - british society has a problem with this. we saw the evidence by- british society has a problem with this. we saw the evidence by cst| this. we saw the evidence by cst report— this. we saw the evidence by cst report this — this. we saw the evidence by cst report this week. _ this. we saw the evidence by cst report this week. we _ this. we saw the evidence by cst report this week.— report this week. we have talked about that with _ report this week. we have talked about that with robert, - report this week. we have talked about that with robert, but - report this week. we have talked about that with robert, but she i report this week. we have talked i about that with robert, but she has addressed a very specific point. let me address that directly, there were malignant _ me address that directly, there were malignant voices— me address that directly, there were malignant voices in _ me address that directly, there were malignant voices in the _ me address that directly, there were malignant voices in the labour- me address that directly, there were malignant voices in the labour party| malignant voices in the labour party that were _ malignant voices in the labour party that were amplified _ malignant voices in the labour party that were amplified tragically- malignant voices in the labour party that were amplified tragically by- that were amplified tragically by the previous— that were amplified tragically by the previous leader— that were amplified tragically by the previous leader of _ that were amplified tragically by the previous leader of the - that were amplified tragically byi the previous leader of the labour party _ the previous leader of the labour party the — the previous leader of the labour party. the first _ the previous leader of the labour party. the first day— the previous leader of the labour party. the first day he _ the previous leader of the labour party. the first day he assumed i the previous leader of the labour. party. the first day he assumed the leadership— party. the first day he assumed the leadership in— party. the first day he assumed the leadership in 2020, _ party. the first day he assumed the leadership in 2020, keir— party. the first day he assumed the leadership in 2020, keir starmer. leadership in 2020, keir starmer said don't— leadership in 2020, keir starmer said don'tiudge _ leadership in 2020, keir starmer said don'tjudge me _ leadership in 2020, keir starmer said don'tjudge me by— leadership in 2020, keir starmer said don'tjudge me by my- leadership in 2020, keir starmerl said don'tjudge me by my words, judge _ said don'tjudge me by my words, judge me — said don'tjudge me by my words, judge me by— said don'tjudge me by my words, judge me by my— said don'tjudge me by my words, judge me by my actions. - said don'tjudge me by my words, judge me by my actions. since - said don'tjudge me by my words, i judge me by my actions. since then he has _ judge me by my actions. since then he has relentlessly— judge me by my actions. since then he has relentlessly and _ judge me by my actions. since thenl he has relentlessly and methodically sought— he has relentlessly and methodically sought to _ he has relentlessly and methodically sought to root — he has relentlessly and methodically sought to root out _ he has relentlessly and methodically sought to root out the _ he has relentlessly and methodically sought to root out the cancer, - sought to root out the cancer, because — sought to root out the cancer, because that _ sought to root out the cancer, because that is _ sought to root out the cancer, because that is what - sought to root out the cancer, because that is what it - sought to root out the cancer, because that is what it is, - sought to root out the cancer, because that is what it is, of. because that is what it is, of anti—semitism. _ because that is what it is, of anti—semitism. it— because that is what it is, of anti—semitism. it was - because that is what it is, of anti—semitism. it was the i because that is what it is, of- anti—semitism. it was the former chief— anti—semitism. it was the former chief rabbi — anti—semitism. it was the former chief rabbi lord _ anti—semitism. it was the former chief rabbi lord jonathan - anti—semitism. it was the former chief rabbi lord jonathan sacks i anti—semitism. it was the former. chief rabbi lord jonathan sacks who said, chief rabbi lord jonathan sacks who said. through — chief rabbi lord jonathan sacks who said, through history, _ chief rabbi lord jonathan sacks who said, through history, the _ chief rabbi lord jonathan sacks who said, through history, the virus- chief rabbi lord jonathan sacks who said, through history, the virus of. said, through history, the virus of anti—semitism _ said, through history, the virus of anti—semitism mutates, - said, through history, the virus of anti—semitism mutates, but- said, through history, the virus of anti—semitism mutates, but it - anti—semitism mutates, but it endures — anti—semitism mutates, but it endures so— anti—semitism mutates, but it endures. so it _ anti—semitism mutates, but it endures. so it presents - anti—semitism mutates, but it endures. so it presents itselfi anti—semitism mutates, but it. endures. so it presents itself in different— endures. so it presents itself in different forms _ endures. so it presents itself in different forms in _ endures. so it presents itself in different forms in different - endures. so it presents itself in i different forms in different times, but that— different forms in different times, but that is— different forms in different times, but that is why _ different forms in different times, but that is why frankly— different forms in different times, but that is why frankly i— different forms in different times, but that is why frankly i agree - different forms in different times, | but that is why frankly i agree with tracy, _ but that is why frankly i agree with tracy, our— but that is why frankly i agree with tracy, our responsibility _ but that is why frankly i agree with tracy, our responsibility is - but that is why frankly i agree with tracy, our responsibility is not - but that is why frankly i agree with tracy, our responsibility is not to i tracy, our responsibility is not to leave _ tracy, our responsibility is not to leave it _ tracy, our responsibility is not to leave it to— tracy, our responsibility is not to leave it to the _ tracy, our responsibility is not to leave it to the jewish _ tracy, our responsibility is not to leave it to the jewish communityj tracy, our responsibility is not to i leave it to the jewish community to confront— leave it to the jewish community to confront anti—semitism, _ leave it to the jewish community to confront anti—semitism, it -

leave it to the jewish community to confront anti—semitism, it is - leave it to the jewish community to confront anti—semitism, it is the i confront anti—semitism, it is the responsibility— confront anti—semitism, it is the responsibility of— confront anti—semitism, it is the responsibility of everyone - confront anti—semitism, it is the responsibility of everyone of - confront anti—semitism, it is the responsibility of everyone of in i confront anti—semitism, it is the i responsibility of everyone of in the uk to— responsibility of everyone of in the uk to confront _ responsibility of everyone of in the uk to confront anti—semitism. - responsibility of everyone of in the uk to confront anti—semitism. toi responsibility of everyone of in the i uk to confront anti—semitism. to do anything _ uk to confront anti—semitism. to do anything else — uk to confront anti—semitism. to do anything else would _ uk to confront anti—semitism. to do anything else would be _ uk to confront anti—semitism. to do anything else would be to _ uk to confront anti—semitism. to do anything else would be to deny - uk to confront anti—semitism. to do anything else would be to deny ouri anything else would be to deny our common— anything else would be to deny our common humanity. _ anything else would be to deny our common humanity. [— anything else would be to deny our common humanity.— anything else would be to deny our common humanity. i think the recent occasion with — common humanity. i think the recent occasion with ali _ common humanity. i think the recent occasion with ali as _ common humanity. i think the recent occasion with ali as a _ common humanity. i think the recent occasion with ali as a graeme - common humanity. i think the recent occasion with ali as a graeme jones i occasion with ali as a graemejones is that keir starmer absolutely has stood up to it and has tried to stamp it out, but there is a problem that this was allowed to continue. these candidates were supported for a week and was really worrying. those of us looking to keir starmer and to the labour party, wondering if and when they get into government, this cancer that you talk about that is in the heart of labour, some of us may feel, with this anti—jewish feeling at this anti—jewish vernacular, what happens? can you really stamp it out. . , ., happens? can you really stamp it out. . ,, i happens? can you really stamp it out-- i think _ happens? can you really stamp it out.- i think we - happens? can you really stamp it out.- i think we can, - happens? can you really stamp it out.- i think we can, it i happens? can you really stamp it| out.- i think we can, it is out. can you? i think we can, it is not a out. can you? i think we can, it is rrot a small— out. can you? i think we can, it is not a small labour _ out. can you? i think we can, it is not a small labour to _ out. can you? i think we can, it is not a small labour to say - out. can you? i think we can, it is not a small labour to say labouri not a small labour to say labour will not — not a small labour to say labour will not have _ not a small labour to say labour will not have a _ not a small labour to say labour will not have a candidate - will not have a candidate in rochdale _ will not have a candidate in rochdale by—election, - will not have a candidate in rochdale by—election, buti will not have a candidate in i rochdale by—election, but the will not have a candidate in - rochdale by—election, but the right outcome _ rochdale by—election, but the right outcome was — rochdale by—election, but the right outcome was reached, _ rochdale by—election, but the right outcome was reached, consistent. rochdale by—election, but the right i outcome was reached, consistent with what has _

outcome was reached, consistent with what has been — outcome was reached, consistent with what has been an— outcome was reached, consistent with what has been an absolute _ outcome was reached, consistent with what has been an absolute theme - outcome was reached, consistent with what has been an absolute theme of. what has been an absolute theme of keir starmer's — what has been an absolute theme of keir starmer's leadership, _ what has been an absolute theme of keir starmer's leadership, which- what has been an absolute theme of keir starmer's leadership, which is. keir starmer's leadership, which is to route _ keir starmer's leadership, which is to route out — keir starmer's leadership, which is to route out that _ keir starmer's leadership, which is to route out that cancer. _ keir starmer's leadership, which is to route out that cancer. let’s - keir starmer's leadership, which is to route out that cancer.— to route out that cancer. let's talk about the vote _ to route out that cancer. let's talk about the vote on _ to route out that cancer. let's talk about the vote on the _ to route out that cancer. let's talk about the vote on the ceasefire i to route out that cancer. let's talk about the vote on the ceasefire in | about the vote on the ceasefire in gaza because other people believe a feature of keir starmer's leadership is appearing a bit woolly, he won't vote for an immediate ceasefire in gaza, even the scottish labour has said, that is perfectly reasonable, let's do that. said, that is perfectly reasonable, let's do that-— said, that is perfectly reasonable, let's do that. what will happen? as a scottish candidate _ let's do that. what will happen? as a scottish candidate i _ let's do that. what will happen? as a scottish candidate i am _ let's do that. what will happen? as a scottish candidate i am aware - let's do that. what will happen? as | a scottish candidate i am aware that the scottish— a scottish candidate i am aware that the scottish labour— a scottish candidate i am aware that the scottish labour leader, - a scottish candidate i am aware that the scottish labour leader, you - a scottish candidate i am aware that the scottish labour leader, you arel the scottish labour leader, you are criticised _ the scottish labour leader, you are criticised if— the scottish labour leader, you are criticised if you _ the scottish labour leader, you are criticised if you agree _ the scottish labour leader, you are criticised if you agree with - the scottish labour leader, you are criticised if you agree with the - the scottish labour leader, you are criticised if you agree with the uk i criticised if you agree with the uk labour— criticised if you agree with the uk labour leader, _ criticised if you agree with the uk labour leader, you _ criticised if you agree with the uk labour leader, you criticised - criticised if you agree with the uk labour leader, you criticised if. criticised if you agree with the ukl labour leader, you criticised if you don't _ labour leader, you criticised if you don't. yesterday, _ labour leader, you criticised if you don't. yesterday, keir— labour leader, you criticised if you don't. yesterday, keir starmer- labour leader, you criticised if youl don't. yesterday, keir starmer said we all— don't. yesterday, keir starmer said we all want — don't. yesterday, keir starmer said we all want a — don't. yesterday, keir starmer said we all want a ceasefire. _ don't. yesterday, keir starmer said we all want a ceasefire. the - we all want a ceasefire. the question— we all want a ceasefire. the question is— we all want a ceasefire. the question is how— we all want a ceasefire. the question is how do - we all want a ceasefire. the question is how do we - we all want a ceasefire. the question is how do we get i we all want a ceasefire. the - question is how do we get there? everyone — question is how do we get there? everyone is— question is how do we get there? everyone is of— question is how do we get there? everyone is of a _ question is how do we get there? everyone is of a similar— question is how do we get there? everyone is of a similar mind - question is how do we get there? everyone is of a similar mind in. everyone is of a similar mind in saying — everyone is of a similar mind in saying we — everyone is of a similar mind in saying we want _ everyone is of a similar mind in saying we want an _ everyone is of a similar mind in saying we want an end - everyone is of a similar mind in saying we want an end to - everyone is of a similar mind in saying we want an end to the i saying we want an end to the violence _ saying we want an end to the violence. ., ,., saying we want an end to the violence-— saying we want an end to the violence. ., ~ , . , , violence. labour mps in westminster vote... i suspect _ violence. labour mps in westminster vote... i suspect there _ violence. labour mps in westminster vote... i suspect there will _ violence. labour mps in westminster vote... i suspect there will be - vote... i suspect there will be careful consideration - vote... i suspect there will be careful consideration with - vote... i suspect there will be careful consideration with the | careful consideration with the motions— careful consideration with the motions tabled _ careful consideration with the motions tabled tomorrow - careful consideration with the motions tabled tomorrow butj careful consideration with the - motions tabled tomorrow but this is bigger— motions tabled tomorrow but this is bigger than— motions tabled tomorrow but this is bigger than party— motions tabled tomorrow but this is bigger than party politics. _ motions tabled tomorrow but this is bigger than party politics. i- bigger than party politics. i disagree _ bigger than party politics. i disagree with— bigger than party politics. i disagree with david - bigger than party politics. i. disagree with david cameron bigger than party politics. i- disagree with david cameron on austerity, — disagree with david cameron on austerity, brexit _ disagree with david cameron on austerity, brexit and _ disagree with david cameron on austerity, brexit and any - disagree with david cameron oni austerity, brexit and any number disagree with david cameron on - austerity, brexit and any number of issues _ austerity, brexit and any number of issues. truthfully, _ austerity, brexit and any number of issues. truthfully, i— austerity, brexit and any number of issues. truthfully, ithink— austerity, brexit and any number of issues. truthfully, i think he - austerity, brexit and any number of issues. truthfully, i think he has.

issues. truthfully, ithink he has done _ issues. truthfully, ithink he has done a _ issues. truthfully, ithink he has done a pretty— issues. truthfully, ithink he has done a pretty effective - issues. truthfully, ithink he has done a pretty effective job - issues. truthfully, ithink he has done a pretty effective job of. done a pretty effective job of diplomacy— done a pretty effective job of diplomacy in _ done a pretty effective job of diplomacy in the _ done a pretty effective job of diplomacy in the middle - done a pretty effective job of| diplomacy in the middle east. done a pretty effective job of- diplomacy in the middle east. this is bigger— diplomacy in the middle east. this is bigger than— diplomacy in the middle east. this is bigger than what _ diplomacy in the middle east. this is bigger than what is _ diplomacy in the middle east. this is bigger than what is happening. i diplomacy in the middle east. thisl is bigger than what is happening. it is bigger than what is happening. it is not _ is bigger than what is happening. it is not a _ is bigger than what is happening. it is not a parliamentary _ is bigger than what is happening. it is not a parliamentary parlour- is bigger than what is happening. it. is not a parliamentary parlour game, the reality— is not a parliamentary parlour game, the reality is, — is not a parliamentary parlour game, the reality is, this _ is not a parliamentary parlour game, the reality is, this money— is not a parliamentary parlour game, the reality is, this money 1.4 - the reality is, this money 1.4 million — the reality is, this money 1.4 million palestinian _ the reality is, this money 1.4 million palestinian citizens i the reality is, this money 1.4 - million palestinian citizens woke up in rafah, _ million palestinian citizens woke up in rafah, sik— million palestinian citizens woke up in rafah, six times _ million palestinian citizens woke up in rafah, six times the _ million palestinian citizens woke up in rafah, six times the size - million palestinian citizens woke up in rafah, six times the size of- million palestinian citizens woke up in rafah, six times the size of thati in rafah, six times the size of that population. — in rafah, six times the size of that population. they— in rafah, six times the size of that population, they have _ in rafah, six times the size of that population, they have woken - in rafah, six times the size of that population, they have woken up i in rafah, six times the size of that i population, they have woken up cold, damp, _ population, they have woken up cold, damp, fearful— population, they have woken up cold, damp, fearfuland _ population, they have woken up cold, damp, fearful and frightened. - population, they have woken up cold, damp, fearful and frightened. that i damp, fearful and frightened. that is why— damp, fearful and frightened. that is why so— damp, fearful and frightened. that is why so keir— damp, fearful and frightened. that is why so keir starmer— damp, fearful and frightened. that is why so keir starmer suggested i is why so keir starmer suggested that israel— is why so keir starmer suggested that israel has _ is why so keir starmer suggested that israel has a _ is why so keir starmer suggested that israel has a right _ is why so keir starmer suggested that israel has a right to - is why so keir starmer suggested that israel has a right to defend i that israel has a right to defend itself, _ that israel has a right to defend itself, but — that israel has a right to defend itself, but how— that israel has a right to defend itself, but how it _ that israel has a right to defend itself, but how it defends - that israel has a right to defend itself, but how it defends itself| itself, but how it defends itself matters — itself, but how it defends itself matters and _ itself, but how it defends itself matters and it _ itself, but how it defends itself matters and it is _ itself, but how it defends itself matters and it is what - itself, but how it defends itself matters and it is what the - matters and it is what the international— matters and it is what the - international communication. ho international communication. no doubt international communication. doubt there will be lots of talk about that in westminster this week. we about to talk to michael tomlinson, after a shocking defeat for your party in by—elections this week, it is looking pretty catastrophic isn't it? i week, it is looking pretty catastrophic isn't it? week, it is looking pretty catastrohic isn't it? . , ., catastrophic isn't it? i have been a by-election _ catastrophic isn't it? i have been a by-election candidate _ catastrophic isn't it? i have been a by-election candidate myself- catastrophic isn't it? i have been a by-election candidate myself and l catastrophic isn't it? i have been a| by-election candidate myself and it by—election candidate myself and it is nearly 30 years since i thought a very difficult february by—election. there are important political moments and politicians bury their

heads in the sand if they ignore it. however, they are only signals, they are not predictors of what will happen. having been a parliamentary candidate, as douglas now is, in the 19905, it candidate, as douglas now is, in the 1990s, it doesn't feel the same now as it did then. 50 1990s, it doesn't feel the same now as it did then-— as it did then. so this is not over. one of the _ as it did then. so this is not over. one of the big — as it did then. so this is not over. one of the big conversations - as it did then. so this is not over. one of the big conversations in i one of the big conversations in politics right now is people's favourite parlour game, 92 and 97 because people spend their time doing fun things like imagine edging which apparel from the past... 2010. now there's been a lot of sad conservative faces this week. not one, but two dreadful defeats at the ballot box — in by elections as we mentioned earlier — one in kingswood near bristol and wellingbourgh in northamptonshire — the latest in a line of kickings for the government as rishi sunak�*s many attempts to rebrand and reset seem to have little effect at all. the immigration minister michael tomlinson is with us this morning for the first time.

you're very welcome to the studio. these by—elections are not blips, they are not one—offs, there have been plenty of them that have been dreadful for you, been plenty of them that have been dreadfulfor you, you been plenty of them that have been dreadful for you, you have been plenty of them that have been dreadfulfor you, you have been behind in the polls for many months. whatever you are trying, it is not working? i whatever you are trying, it is not workin: ? . ., , , working? i agree with robert, these by-elections — working? i agree with robert, these by-elections were _ working? i agree with robert, these by-elections were set _ working? i agree with robert, these by-elections were set against - working? i agree with robert, these by-elections were set against a - by—elections were set against a difficult backdrop. i was in kingswood myself, i saw the excellent candidate in the campaign on the ground. but if you look at it, if you look at reforms vote which people have been talking about this week, what comes across to me is it is very clear and vote for reform is a vote to let labour in and that is a very clear message that i have taken away. one of the clear message i have taken away from these by—elections. the clear message i have taken away from these by-elections._ these by-elections. the clear message _ these by-elections. the clear message is — these by-elections. the clear message is that _ these by-elections. the clear message is that people - these by-elections. the clear message is that people don't| these by-elections. the clear- message is that people don't like what rishi sunak is offering them. somerton and frome, tamworth in the midlands, the south—east, this is a

long line of kicking since rishi sunak has been in. voters don't want what is offering?— what is offering? these have been difficult circumstances _ what is offering? these have been difficult circumstances and - what is offering? these have been difficult circumstances and the - difficult circumstances and the difficult circumstances and the difficult backdrop. you mentioned by—elections, governments don't traditionally win by—elections, that is right, we saw the turnout, very different from the turnout you get at a general election, in the 30s or thereabouts for the by—elections. much higher, likely to be the 60s or 70s in a general election. but it has been a very difficult backdrop. one of the messages i receive, as i said, is in relation for reform, a vote for reform will let labour in. that is voters choosing to go somewhere else because they don't like what you have been putting on the table. more than a year ago, rishi sunak said judge me on my actions, judge me on his famous pledges he put forward. it looks like people are doing exactly what he asked them to do, they are judging him and they arejudging that he is failing? let’s judging him and they are 'udging

that he is failing?fi that he is failing? let's look at those pledges _ that he is failing? let's look at those pledges in _ that he is failing? let's look at those pledges in the _ that he is failing? let's look at those pledges in the first - that he is failing? let's look at those pledges in the first wasl that he is failing? let's look at i those pledges in the first was in relation to inflation. everyone said it was an ambitious pledge, an ambitious plan, if you like... the bank of england _ ambitious plan, if you like... the bank of england had already forecast it was going to fall, it was not seen at the time that... respectfully, there were doubters and there was a time people doubted that rishi sunak would meet his ambition, his pledge. he did that, 11.1% it was in 2022, now a 4%, more than match that.— than match that. let's look at the other pledges- — than match that. let's look at the other pledges. we _ than match that. let's look at the other pledges. we are _ than match that. let's look at the other pledges. we are in - than match that. let's look at the i other pledges. we are in recession, he pledged to grow the economy, we are in recession. debt is growing, the boats haven't stopped and hospital waiting lists are getting longer? i,et hospital waiting lists are getting [on . er? . .. hospital waiting lists are getting loner? ., ,, .,, longer? let me take those, in relation to _ longer? let me take those, in relation to growing _ longer? let me take those, in relation to growing the - longer? let me take those, in i relation to growing the economy, longer? let me take those, in - relation to growing the economy, the biggest stumbling block, if you like, the biggest barrier to growing the economy is having high inflation. we are seeing that moving inflation. we are seeing that moving in the right direction with predictions that they will be growth in the future, from the obr, from

the oecd, the bank of england, the imf and others predicting there will be growth, we will grow faster than france, italy, germany and japan. but you know it is predicted to be very, very measly and the question i am asking you, is about rishi sunak essentially offering a contract to the public, as the new prime minister taking over after the chaos of liz truss, he said trust me with these five things, i am going to do for you. these five things, i am going to do foryou. on these five things, i am going to do for you. on several of them, things have been going in the wrong direction. voters have clocked that and they are judging direction. voters have clocked that and they arejudging him harshly. laura, the task he set me is the fifth, the final one of those pledges, stopping the boats. that has been a challenge he sent me, thatis has been a challenge he sent me, that is myjob title, if you like. look at last year, we saw boats crossing is down by over a third, 16,000 fewer people. the job crossing is down by over a third, 16,000 fewer people. thejob is not yet done, we still have the deterrent effect that we need to put

in, there are wanda bill, we will see that tomorrow coming back to the house of lords in committee stage. —— wanda. when it comes back to the house of commons and we make the law, as i believe we will, that is when we can ratify the treaty and make sure we can get planes off the ground. the deterrent effect can and will work. ., ., , , ., will work. you hope, there is no firm evidence _ will work. you hope, there is no firm evidence it _ will work. you hope, there is no firm evidence it definitively - will work. you hope, there is no firm evidence it definitively wellj firm evidence it definitively well and before you perhaps give the metaphor of australia, as surely as a different geographical set up and there is nothing deterrent, if you are able to do that. you mention progress on the boats. if you look at the home office figures, your department injanuary 20201180 department in january 20201180 migrants arrived, january 20201223. so it is up slightly, if you look at

the details?— the details? you mentioned australia. — the details? you mentioned australia, let _ the details? you mentioned australia, let me _ the details? you mentioned australia, let me mention i the details? you mentioned - australia, let me mention another country, albania. the prime minister secured a deal in december 2022 with albania and what did you see last year? crossing is down by 90%, those coming from albania trying to get on small boats, down by 90%. the deterrent effect, you mentioned australia, albania it has worked. in terms of the figures, they are coming down. we need to see the figures coming down even further. my mission is a moral mission, we have seenin mission is a moral mission, we have seen in every one of the past three months, people drowning in the the criminal gangs, the people smugglers, they do not care if you are going to live or die, they want to pack as many people onto those flimsy boats, boats iso—48 hours ago when i was in france speaking to my french counterparts in seeing the work they are doing to help us in ourjoint mission to stop the boats. the criminal gangs do not care if you live or die, it is a moral

imperative we resolve. we have made progress, we must make more. there is almost exactly _ progress, we must make more. there is almost exactly the _ progress, we must make more. there is almost exactly the same _ progress, we must make more. there is almost exactly the same number in january 24 as there was in january 23, it is not working what you are trying to do? it 23, it is not working what you are trying to do?— trying to do? it is difficult to say look at one _ trying to do? it is difficult to say look at one month's _ trying to do? it is difficult to say look at one month's figures - trying to do? it is difficult to say look at one month's figures or. trying to do? it is difficult to say look at one month's figures or a | trying to do? it is difficult to say - look at one month's figures or a few weeks figures and try and compare that. if you look at the whole year, this is what i'm trying to say, look at the whole of last year that the predictions would skyrocket, they would double. no, they went down. looking at crossings into europe, to italy, they went up 80% but we have managed. the plan is working. are you going to stick with a plan that is working with the prime minister, are you going to go back to square one? ~ , v are you going to go back to square one? ~ , �* , , ., , one? the prime minister's promised to the public— one? the prime minister's promised to the public was _ one? the prime minister's promised to the public was to _ one? the prime minister's promised to the public was to the _ one? the prime minister's promised to the public was to the boats. - one? the prime minister's promised to the public was to the boats. , - to the public was to the boats. , his promise was to stop the boats. that is not happening. that

his promise was to stop the boats. that is not happening.— his promise was to stop the boats. that is not happening. that has not ha--ened that is not happening. that has not happened yet. _ that is not happening. that has not happened yet. it — that is not happening. that has not happened yet, it is _ that is not happening. that has not happened yet, it is a _ that is not happening. that has not happened yet, it is a challenge - that is not happening. that has not happened yet, it is a challenge and| happened yet, it is a challenge and the task he has set me. the figures are moving in the right direction, there is more we must do. i was in france 48 hours ago seeing the partnership working there and we must work upstream as well making sure the boats don't get there. in france we saw one of those boats on its way to try and make one of those perilous journeys being seized. its way to try and make one of those perilousjourneys being seized. the plan is working and we need to stick with the plan. plan is working and we need to stick with the plan-— with the plan. beavers make their own judgment. — with the plan. beavers make their own judgment. i— with the plan. beavers make their own judgment, i want _ with the plan. beavers make their own judgment, i want to - with the plan. beavers make their own judgment, i want to ask- with the plan. beavers make their own judgment, i want to ask it. with the plan. beavers make their. own judgment, i want to ask it about a specific part of yourjob, a different bit. there were 22,000 asylum seekers who arrived here between march and july last year. they are not eligible to be sent to rwanda because the legislation would only apply from july. nor can they legally claim asylum. so they are stuck. it was a mistake to create that loophole?— stuck. it was a mistake to create that loophole? stuck. it was a mistake to create that loo-hole? . ., ., , , , that loophole? what has happened is there has been _ that loophole? what has happened is there has been a _ that loophole? what has happened is there has been a decision _ that loophole? what has happened is there has been a decision to - that loophole? what has happened is there has been a decision to pause, i there has been a decision to pause, and i think that is right, we have had the supreme courtjudgment last

year on the 15th of november. it is right, i think, year on the 15th of november. it is right, ithink, that year on the 15th of november. it is right, i think, that the government and the home secretary and i have the opportunity to pause and reflect. that is what is happening now. i mentioned the bill and the treaty. the treaty was signed last yearin treaty. the treaty was signed last year in december and is going through parliament.— year in december and is going through parliament. these are parliament _ through parliament. these are parliament to _ through parliament. these are parliament to him _ through parliament. these are parliament to him that - through parliament. these are parliament to him that lieu - through parliament. these are parliament to him that lieu lo i through parliament. these are i parliament to him that lieu lo you want to pass does not apply. there are more than 20,000 people stuck in are more than 20,000 people stuck in a legal limbo because of this loophole over government's law has created. ~ ., , ., ., created. what will you do with them? that is not quite _ created. what will you do with them? that is not quite right. _ created. what will you do with them? that is not quite right. the _ created. what will you do with them? that is not quite right. the bill, - that is not quite right. the bill, when it comes in means there is the solution in relation to rwanda. it means we can get planes off the ground and so we need to get that bill to come through. to answer your question, it was the right thing to do to reflect on the supreme court judgment of the 15th of november. the government responded with the treaty and the bill. that is coming through parliament and is back in the house of lords tomorrow. share through parliament and is back in the house of lords tomorrow. are you su: atestin the house of lords tomorrow. are you suggesting that _ the house of lords tomorrow. are you suggesting that when _ the house of lords tomorrow. are you suggesting that when that _ the house of lords tomorrow. are you suggesting that when that law - the house of lords tomorrow. are you

suggesting that when that law is - suggesting that when that law is passedit suggesting that when that law is passed it will also apply to these people stuck in limbo?— passed it will also apply to these people stuck in limbo? there are wanda plan _ people stuck in limbo? there are wanda plan means _ people stuck in limbo? there are wanda plan means planes - wanda plan means planes can take of the ground and it will include those who are already here, that is exactly right. there are people stuck in the nepal right now, also more than 90,000 people who arrived sincejune nine day 2022, it is a shambles, isn't it? , , ., , it? this is for we must get legislation _ it? this is for we must get legislation through - it? this is for we must get legislation through as - it? this is for we must get i legislation through as quickly it? this is for we must get - legislation through as quickly as possible, the bill is coming through parliament and must go through parliamentary process, the third committee tomorrow and the house of lords and that will come back for parliamentary ping—pong but i want to get that through as quickly as possible and when it does we can get the other planes of lords and that will come back for parliamentary ping—pong but i want to get that through as quickly as possible and when it does we can get the aeroplanes off the ground. i will not aet aeroplanes off the ground. i will rrot get you _ aeroplanes off the ground. i will rrot get you to — aeroplanes off the ground. i will not get you to bet _ aeroplanes off the ground. i will not get you to bet whether the aeroplanes will get off the ground, that happened in a different interview on a different programme but thank you so much.

now for something totally different. it's sunday so let's have some sparkle — dr who is now becoming dr thomas stockmann — yes, the star, actor, matt smith, the 11th doctor, is on london's west end stage in the 19th—century play, an enemy of the people. i asked why this story about power, money and the truth is still relevant. i think perhaps because the truth is undermined so consistently and i think that's one of the problems that thomas really struggles with. it's this idea, i think, i think that is quite true to now. you know, there's so much disinformation and misinformation and i think, you know, i think one has to find their own route to the truth nowadays a bit. does that make sense? it does make sense, i think a lot of people hear that and find that resonates somehow with them. yeah, yeah, because there's so much sort of like rubbish on the internet now and you know people can say anything and sort of purport

it to be the truth. look, i think broadly speaking, there are a lot of themes in this play that i think feel very prevalent and present. a few days ago, had someone tried to muzzle on the subject i would have fought for my right to speak until my last breath. but that all seems irrelevant now after what i've experienced. i've made a discovery... even though it was written in the 19th century, you are very much hitting things that will hit a nerve with people today. and you even involve the audience, that's quite a risk. looking out there, it looks a bit scary to me. you invite people to participate? it never stops looking scary, that place, i can tell you. really? well, kind of, yeah. every day you think, why am i doing a play, what have i done? no, so there's a sort of like a town hall meeting, essentially, that comes in the second act of the play where the audience are invited to participate. do you ever worry you are going to lose control of the audience? you know, might be like a really... i want to lose control!

really? yeah, because that's what the theatre is about. we need to lose control a bit, don't we? it's interesting, you want people to have a really strong reaction... yes. on the show last week, ralph fiennes said that trigger warnings should go, people should be shocked. i agree, i watched it and i agree with him utterly and completely. that is why we go to the theatre, isn't it, to be shocked, to be arrested out of ourselves, to recognise ourselves in front and with an audience. i also agree that if there are strobes or whatever, there are some things it makes sense, but i worry sometimes we are moving towards a sort of sanitised version of everything. we are stripping the danger and the invention and the ingenuity out. isn't art meant to be dangerous? i thought that was one of the great things of doing doctor who, you scare children, but in a controlled way. but you did scare them. imagine you go to kids watching doctor who, by the way, this might scare you. no, i'm not into it. let's talk about doctor who.

i read when you accepted doctor who, you were 27? 26. you were 26? yeah, yeah. you weren't sure you had done the right thing, becoming the 11th doctor, is that true? i was young and sort of foolish. i'm still foolish, just older. i thought, would ijust always be doctor who? and then i realise, actually, always being doctor who is amazing. it's not a bad thing. it's a great thing. it's still one of the great pleasures of my life, i'm so, so proud of that show. and it'sjust the most amazing part, suddenly you are doctor who! children are like, no way, like, you are doctor who? you are like, yeah, man, i am. my family, and it was just... yeah, really extraordinary life moment. do kids still come up to? yeah, but obviously it moved on and now it's all about... but, yeah interestingly now they are 18 and they are like,

when i was young you were really cool i'm not now, but... would you ever do a david tennant and go back to the tardis for one last time, fancy another spin? never say never. you say that you love inhabiting a character, spending time with characters and one of the characters she spent a lot of time with was somebody from real life, prince philip? big phil! is that you called him, big phil? big phil, i loved big phil. i will not kneel before my wife. your wife isn't asking you to. but my queen commands me? yes. i beg you make an exception for me. i told my grandad that i got that part and he said, "bloody hell, you are not playing that burk?" he couldn't bear him, my grandad couldn't bear him. he wasn't very into the royal family. but ijust loved him. all of the research i did, i thought what an extraordinary, forward—thinking, deeply funny, irascible, brilliant man he was. is it true that prince harry called you grandpa? yeah, yeah. granddad. i was like, all right, mate.

is it true that the late queen used to watch the crown, you heard, on projector? i heard this. this might be an old wives tale. i heard she watch this with members... but this is the thing, it generates a level of gossip around them that they probably don't want. but by the same notion, without, without, being too presumptuous about it, has it done them, has there been has it created a degree of intrigue about them as well that perhaps you know, because it modernised them anyway, has it helped people empathise with them? let's talk about something that is definitely fiction, the game its own spin—off, house of the dragon. you played prince daemon. yes, yes. it said the second series is going to be very, very gory, how gory is it really going to be could be because the first series ends with the war

about to kick off. as you would expect, all the bells and whistles of gore and madness and relationships flying around all over the place and we've got some wonderful new characters coming in, some wonderful new actors who are on board, the great freddie fox isjoint which i'm delighted about. and yeah, hopefully we can deliver something again of great scale and ambition and you know, and has the essence and the tenacity of those books. blood and guts? blood and guts and just thought relationships. and politics, small p politics? politicians do you think would do well in that environment? stick a wig on em all and see how we get on! matt smith, it's been really great to talk to you. thank you so much. thanks for your time. the irascible matt smith! thank you for getting in touch.

keep your messages coming in, we do read them all. i am tempted to pick up read them all. i am tempted to pick up on the points that matt smith went, as politics a bit of performance.— went, as politics a bit of performance. went, as politics a bit of erformance. , ., ., ., ., performance. its total game of thrones without _ performance. its total game of thrones without the _ performance. its total game of thrones without the dragons, i performance. its total game of. thrones without the dragons, isn't it, it's all the sexiness and blood and gore and the intrigue. d0 it, it's all the sexiness and blood and gore and the intrigue. do you think politics _ and gore and the intrigue. do you think politics has _ and gore and the intrigue. do you think politics has to _ and gore and the intrigue. do you think politics has to be _ and gore and the intrigue. do you think politics has to be a - and gore and the intrigue. do youj think politics has to be a dramatic performance, you are in the merchant of venice at the moment but the egos and dramas and ambition? i of venice at the moment but the egos and dramas and ambition?— and dramas and ambition? i think in this current — and dramas and ambition? i think in this current climate _ and dramas and ambition? i think in this current climate you _ and dramas and ambition? i think in this current climate you got - and dramas and ambition? i think in this current climate you got to - and dramas and ambition? i think in this current climate you got to be i this current climate you got to be slightly crazy to be a politician, these are dark and dangerous times, my father was always desperate for me to be in law and he made me watch

rumpole of the daily. you could say politics in showbiz.— politics in showbiz. robert, you were a lawyer- _ politics in showbiz. robert, you were a lawyer. wearing - politics in showbiz. robert, you were a lawyer. wearing a - politics in showbiz. robert, you were a lawyer. wearing a wig i politics in showbiz. robert, you i were a lawyer. wearing a wig was part of— were a lawyer. wearing a wig was part of my — were a lawyer. wearing a wig was part of my life and i still have my wigm _ part of my life and i still have my wigm i_ part of my life and i still have my wigm i am — part of my life and i still have my wig... i am stilla part of my life and i still have my wig... i am still a practising lawyer~ _ wig... i am still a practising lawyer. though i would say, it's all right, _ lawyer. though i would say, it's all right, it _ lawyer. though i would say, it's all right, it should be about the doing, remind _ right, it should be about the doing, remind yourself every day for what am i here — remind yourself every day for what am i here to do, not what i'm here to be— am i here to do, not what i'm here to be and— am i here to do, not what i'm here to be and i— am i here to do, not what i'm here to be and i have been getting stuff done all— to be and i have been getting stuff done all my political career and that's— done all my political career and that's what i'm going to continue to do. ~ �* ., ., , , . that's what i'm going to continue to do. ., do. while we're on that sub'ect, do ou think do. while we're on that sub'ect, do you think you i do. while we're on that sub'ect, do you think you willfi do. while we're on that sub'ect, do you think you will hang _ do. while we're on that subject, do you think you will hang your- do. while we're on that subject, do you think you will hang your seat? | you think you will hang your seat? my you think you will hang your seat? my seat has always been a marginal, iwon— my seat has always been a marginal, i won it _ my seat has always been a marginal, i won it in _ my seat has always been a marginal, i won it in 2010 and i never take it for granted, — i won it in 2010 and i never take it for granted, i have won and lost elections — for granted, i have won and lost elections but what i do know is i will care — elections but what i do know is i will care about the issues, like autism, — will care about the issues, like autism, the law and politics, that have _ autism, the law and politics, that have driven — autism, the law and politics, that have driven me throughout my life. and wigs? — have driven me throughout my life. and wigs? and wigs? and weeks and what you _

and wigs? and wigs? and weeks and what you achieved by defending justice — what you achieved by defending 'ustice. ., , �* , what you achieved by defending 'ustice. �* , justice. douglas, i'm interested you want to come _ justice. douglas, i'm interested you want to come back _ justice. douglas, i'm interested you want to come back as _ justice. douglas, i'm interested you want to come back as an _ justice. douglas, i'm interested you want to come back as an mp, - justice. douglas, i'm interested you want to come back as an mp, you i justice. douglas, i'm interested you i want to come back as an mp, you were a senior minister in the new labour government, but are tracy and suggested, some people might think why do you want to come back and has changed in the time you've been away? changed in the time you've been awa ? �* ., ., , ., away? i'm learning how things are different, i— away? i'm learning how things are different, i spent _ away? i'm learning how things are different, i spent the _ away? i'm learning how things are different, i spent the last - away? i'm learning how things are different, i spent the last eight i different, i spent the last eight years— different, i spent the last eight years having _ different, i spent the last eight years having the _ different, i spent the last eight years having the privilege - different, i spent the last eight years having the privilege of. years having the privilege of teaching _ years having the privilege of teaching and _ years having the privilege of teaching and some - years having the privilege of teaching and some of- years having the privilege of teaching and some of the i years having the privilege of- teaching and some of the worlds finest— teaching and some of the worlds finest universities, _ teaching and some of the worlds finest universities, i— teaching and some of the worlds finest universities, i spend - teaching and some of the worlds finest universities, i spend a - teaching and some of the worlds finest universities, i spend a lotl finest universities, i spend a lot of time — finest universities, ! spend a lot of time away— finest universities, i spend a lot of time away from _ finest universities, i spend a lot of time away from politics - finest universities, i spend a lot of time away from politics and i finest universities, i spend a lot. of time away from politics and the uk but _ of time away from politics and the uk but i _ of time away from politics and the uk but i believe _ of time away from politics and the uk but i believe politics— of time away from politics and the uk but i believe politics still- uk but i believe politics still matters _ uk but i believe politics still matters and _ uk but i believe politics still matters and in _ uk but i believe politics still matters and in that - uk but i believe politics still matters and in that sense i i uk but i believe politics still- matters and in that sense i take nothing — matters and in that sense i take nothing for— matters and in that sense i take nothing for granted. _ matters and in that sense i take nothing for granted. i'm - matters and in that sense i take| nothing for granted. i'm working hard _ nothing for granted. i'm working hard to— nothing for granted. i'm working hard to win _ nothing for granted. i'm working hard to win support _ nothing for granted. i'm working hard to win support but - nothing for granted. i'm working hard to win support but i- nothing for granted. i'm working hard to win support but i think. nothing for granted. i'm working i hard to win support but i think one way politics — hard to win support but i think one way politics has— hard to win support but i think one way politics has changed _ hard to win support but i think one way politics has changed it - hard to win support but i think one way politics has changed it has- way politics has changed it has become — way politics has changed it has become more _ way politics has changed it has become more performative - way politics has changed it hasi become more performative and way politics has changed it has- become more performative and think about— become more performative and think about the _ become more performative and think about the politicians _ become more performative and think about the politicians i _ become more performative and think about the politicians i grew— become more performative and think about the politicians i grew up - become more performative and think about the politicians i grew up with i about the politicians i grew up with who i_ about the politicians i grew up with who i knew — about the politicians i grew up with who i knew and _ about the politicians i grew up with who i knew and revered, _ about the politicians i grew up with who i knew and revered, people i about the politicians i grew up with. who i knew and revered, people like alistair— who i knew and revered, people like alistair darling, _ who i knew and revered, people like alistair darling, john _ who i knew and revered, people like alistair darling, john smith, - who i knew and revered, people like alistair darling, john smith, they. alistair darling, john smith, they were _ alistair darling, john smith, they were rubbish— alistair darling, john smith, they were rubbish actors _ alistair darling, john smith, they were rubbish actors and - alistair darling, john smith, they were rubbish actors and brilliantl were rubbish actors and brilliant politicians — were rubbish actors and brilliant politicians and _ were rubbish actors and brilliant politicians and the _ were rubbish actors and brilliant politicians and the privilege - were rubbish actors and brilliant politicians and the privilege of i politicians and the privilege of trying — politicians and the privilege of trying to — politicians and the privilege of trying to make _ politicians and the privilege of trying to make a _ politicians and the privilege of trying to make a difference i politicians and the privilege of| trying to make a difference has drawn — trying to make a difference has drawn me _ trying to make a difference has drawn me back— trying to make a difference has drawn me back into _ trying to make a difference has drawn me back into the - trying to make a difference has drawn me back into the publici trying to make a difference has - drawn me back into the public realm but not _ drawn me back into the public realm but not a _ drawn me back into the public realm but not a single _ drawn me back into the public realm but not a single vote _ drawn me back into the public realm but not a single vote has _ drawn me back into the public realm but not a single vote has been - drawn me back into the public realm but not a single vote has been cast. but not a single vote has been cast and we _ but not a single vote has been cast and we are — but not a single vote has been cast and we are working _ but not a single vote has been cast and we are working hard _ but not a single vote has been cast and we are working hard to- but not a single vote has been cast and we are working hard to win - and we are working hard to win support~ — and we are working hard to win

su- nort. ., , and we are working hard to win su. tort. ., , ., , and we are working hard to win sun-ort. ., ,., , support. that is a very message answer. from _ support. that is a very message answer. from my— support. that is a very message answer. from my point- support. that is a very message answer. from my point of- support. that is a very message answer. from my point of view, j support. that is a very message - answer. from my point of view, the nla i am answer. from my point of view, the play i am doing. — answer. from my point of view, the play i am doing. i — answer. from my point of view, the play i am doing, i noticed _ answer. from my point of view, the play i am doing, i noticed the - play i am doing, i noticed the theatre is about bringing politics into theatre as well. i think there is an emergence, everything is political. is an emergence, everything is nolitical. , , political. everything is political? in political. everything is political? in showbiz. _ political. everything is political? in showbiz, as _ political. everything is political? in showbiz, as politics _ political. everything is political? in showbiz, as politics still- in showbiz, as politics still showbiz for ugly people? i mean, look at these _ showbiz for ugly people? i mean, look at these gorgeous _ showbiz for ugly people? i mean, look at these gorgeous men, - showbiz for ugly people? i mean, j look at these gorgeous men, how can you possibly say that?— you possibly say that? present com nan you possibly say that? present company excepted. _ you possibly say that? present company excepted. but - you possibly say that? present company excepted. but there i you possibly say that? presentl company excepted. but there is vanity, isn't that fair? but company excepted. but there is vanity, isn't that fair?— vanity, isn't that fair? but let's aet back vanity, isn't that fair? but let's get back to _ vanity, isn't that fair? but let's get back to the _ vanity, isn't that fair? but let's get back to the message. - vanity, isn't that fair? but let's get back to the message. as i vanity, isn't that fair? but let's - get back to the message. as douglas says. _ get back to the message. as douglas says it _ get back to the message. as douglas says, it doesn't matter what you look _ says, it doesn't matter what you look like. — says, it doesn't matter what you look like. it— says, it doesn't matter what you look like, it is what you do, you -et look like, it is what you do, you getiudged _ look like, it is what you do, you getjudged by your actions, not how you present them. the getjudged by your actions, not how you present them.— getjudged by your actions, not how you present them. the american model of what ou you present them. the american model of what you look— you present them. the american model of what you look like, _ you present them. the american model of what you look like, the _ you present them. the american model of what you look like, the big _ you present them. the american model of what you look like, the big tv - of what you look like, the big tv appearances and the fight with each other, like halloween has become art november the 5th. that american performative politics and the cult

of personality feels like it has gone into politics.— of personality feels like it has gone into politics. thank you for our gone into politics. thank you for your excellent _ gone into politics. thank you for your excellent television - your excellent television appearances, i was not trying to offend you by using that old cliche! huge thank you to douglas, robert and tracey ann — thank you for spending your sunday morning with us — when we have been mulling over the massive challenges for our politicians right now — not just trying to get your votes, but grappling with prejudice in our society and grasping for any solution for the nightmare problem of vladimir putin. it's not a pretty list. you can always go to iplayer to catch up, or i'll be with paddy o'connell on sunday's newscast on bbc sounds. and i'll be checking in on thursdays now too with a new newsletter, off air, you can sign up to to here — bbc.co.uk/lauraknewsletter — there's no escape! iam i am sorry about that! and i'll look forward to seeing you next sunday, same time, same place.

real problem. what starts with the jewish people does not end there.

live from london, this is bbc news. after setbacks for ukraine in the war against russia, president biden vows to make sure a new package of military support is delivered to kiev. the idea that they are now running out of ammunition and we walk away, thatis out of ammunition and we walk away, that is absurd. this country and everything we are as a country. the family of alexei navalny call on russian authorities to release his body, accusing them of concealing evidence. and its british film's big night later — oppenhemier has the most bafta nominations, but will it win big?

hello, this is bbc news. we start with the latest on the war in ukraine. president biden has blamed russia's capture of a frontline town in eastern ukraine on the failure of us lawmakers to approve a huge package of military aid for kyiv. president biden spoke to president zelensky after ukrainian forces pulled out of avdiivka. mr biden told him he was confident politicians in congress would approve the billions of dollars in additional war aid. president putin has congratulated the soldiers who captured the town. our correspondent simon jones has this report. withdrawal. ukrainian soldiers forced to retreat from avdiivka, a key town in the east of ukraine. although they are still fighting, a shortage of supplies and ammunition has been blamed for giving russia one of its biggest military victories for months.

the white house is warning the stakes for ukraine