Skip to main content

tv   HAR Dtalk  BBC News  February 18, 2024 11:30pm-12:01am GMT

11:30 pm
my guest today is the most prominent leader of russia's anti—putin opposition, alexey navalny. now, he has committed to fighting putin in the 2018 presidential election, but will his defiance cost him dear? alexey navalny, welcome to hardtalk. thank you very much for having me here. you have been involved in opposition politics of one form or another for almost ten years, maybe more, and itjust seems to me that right now your position is perhaps more dispiriting, more depressing than
11:31 pm
it's ever been before. would you agree? absolutely not. actually, i... ironically, i can call vladimir putin as my godfather in politics. because when he came to power and the way he talks and what he's saying, what he's doing, the laws he's passing through duma, told me that russia is done with a democracy and i should do something. i should join the opposition movement, but, you know, i didn't find myself in a more depressing situation than previously. for example, in 2008, the biggest rally, the biggest meeting i participated in was maybe 100 people, maybe 200 and meeting with 1,000 people was tremendously big. but in 2011, 2012, we saw rallies participating with hundreds
11:32 pm
of thousands of people, so i saw different times and... it doesn't bother me how many people now come into the streets. i enjoy doing the right thing. but in a way, you've just made my point for me. you had a momentum between 2008 and 2011, 2012, it did appear that you were building a real popular street movement but look at today. today, more than 80% of russians say they approve of president putin, but also the international situation is changing, and in particular we are about to see a new us president who admires vladimir putin, who says that putin is smart, who says he believes that he can trust putin and wants to work with putin. that's your new reality. well, i have to remind you that, for example, in 2008, everyone in the world admired putin
11:33 pm
and medvedev much bigger than now. do you remember the so—called reset strategy declared by the 0bama administration? they were just nice friends with mr putin, they are kissing each other, etc, etc. yes, we have momentum... let's be specific. when donald trump says, and this is a tweet from just the other day, when he says, quote, "we should be ready "to trust vladimir putin," what is your feeling? well, it sounds disappointing for me and, you know, it's bothering me because i have no idea why mr trump is so kind to mr putin because their views on politics, on particular issues, they 100% differ. from migration to the economy, they are 100% different politicians. but they like each other and it's strange, but, well, i would say that international relationships between the kremlin and foreign countries, they wasn't the hot issue inside of russia. so, well, someone is good
11:34 pm
for putin, someone is bad, it doesn't care for me. but do you in any sense feel betrayed by an incoming us president who says that he regards working closely with putin would be a great asset? you know, because in a sense, that works against everything you are trying to achieve. you are trying to tell the russian people that as long as putin has power, russia is going to be facing sanctions, russia is going to be isolated... right, right. ..russia has no international future and yet... well... ..trump�*s message is very different. i don't like it and i could say honestly that i'm irritated by this, annoyed by this, but i don't feel betrayed. and i can tell you about moments when i felt betrayed. when putin's oligarch, in the top of the british list of most wealthy people, when government officials from russia buying apartments costing £11 million in london, when they are freely travelling all over europe
11:35 pm
and all over the world, despite you have a lot of special regulations, like, you know, you have a so—called bribery act in russia, in britain, and you can, without any problems, prosecute these people on your own laws, for money laundering, for bribery, but they feeling completely free. i feel betrayed. but it doesn't have something to do with donald trump, so far. isn't one of your big problem that vladimir putin has very successfully wrapped himself in the russian flag, he's used nationalism as a potent political force and he's done it in recent years by projecting russian power beyond your borders? 0bviously, i'm thinking in particular of events in ukraine but also what we see in syria today. vladimir putin, to your people in russia, looks like the strong leader reviving russian power that
11:36 pm
so many russian people want. vladimir putin just tried to distract russian people from their real problems like inequality and poverty. we have 23 million russian citizens living below the line of poverty and he has distracted them from this problem with his imperial delusion about making russia great again and all this stuff. you call it an imperial delusion. vladimir putin would say to you, getting back crimea, which is ours and historically was always ours and means so much to the people in this country, that's not a delusion, that's something that he has delivered for the russian people. i would say that everyone in russia would be much happier if vladimir putin delivered some
11:37 pm
more wealth to the russian people, notjust to his oligarchs, because what happened in russia, in terms of the economy, i will use the favourite term of mr trump, it's a disaster what's going on inside of the country. and, yes, vladimir putin has a very aggressive behaviour towards. ..everyone in this world now, but it's just because he doesn't have an ability to solve problems inside russia. are you telling me that your message to the russian people is that if you, alexey navalny, were in power in the kremlin, you would hand crimea back to ukraine? is that what you would do? i don't think that there are simple decisions on this issue, but i would say that, first of all, i will start a new and honest referendum in crimea and the voice of the crimean people in an honest referendum...
11:38 pm
no. with all due respect, international law is quite clear. crimea belongs to ukraine and it was annexed illegally, so if you are to reset russia to create a new dynamic between russia and the outside world, you would have to hand crimea back. are you prepared to do that and tell the russian people you would do that? ..would admit honestly that it was an illegal annexation, yes, it's true. but there is no simple decision like moving crimea back and forth, right? and i would say that this is a problem that don't have any decision for a couple of decades, maybe longer. it would be something like north cyprus or territory we're sharing with japan, arguing with japan for decades, or palestinian territories. all conflicts like this, they don't have a simple solution. maybe they don't have a solution at all, but what we should really consider in this situation is the opinion of
11:39 pm
the people in crimea. actually, we have no idea what they think because the referendum, which was done by vladimir putin, was just a fake. we need a new referendum and it should be the start of what we're doing later. so the context here again comes back to donald trump, because whether it be on the ukraine—crimea issue of whether it be on syria, donald trump has indicated that he can foresee the easing of sanctions, maybe even the removal of us sanctions on russia, if putin will work with him on what trump regards as the big priority, which is the fight against jihadist terror and the so—called islamic state movement. how would you feel if the united states eased sanctions against russia? i cannot support this part of sanctions which applied towards the russian economy, in general, since i'm a russian citizen.
11:40 pm
but i will definitely be very, very unhappy if mr trump will ease and cancel this part of the sanctions which apply to the particular personalities, like friends of vladimir putin, or putin's oligarchs or corrupt officials who were in his closest circle because actually these part of sanctions is very nice for the russian people and it's supported by the russian people. but, to put it bluntly, do you think donald trump cares about issues inside russia, human rights, freedom, democracy? absolutely not. and i would say that the previous administration and the previous administration before 0bama didn't care about this as well. practically, you know? some of them said something but in general theyjust don't care and i don't have any delusion about this. you have, from the very beginning
11:41 pm
of your political activity, focused on corruption. you talked from the very beginning about putin's regime being a regime of crooks and thieves. has it changed in any way during the decade that you've been working on anti—corruption activities? yes, it's changed, it's become bigger. now, putin's friends, his very close circle of friends, theyjust replaced the russian economy itself. 90% of the government procurement is his friends and he has literally maybe five people who just grab all of the russian economy, all government procurements, all government contracts. all roads, all bridges, all tunnels are constructed in russia by mr rotenberg, and mr timchenko, who was the closest associate of mr putin. they are doing everything, they are supplying equipment for gazprom, they're supplying pharmacy, supplying medical equipment, etc, etc. so let me get this straight — you're saying things have gotten
11:42 pm
worse, the corruption is more rampant, the cronyism is terrible and yet putin's approval rating is at 86%. it suggests to me that the russian people don't care. well, this is a major mistake that people doing when they discuss putin's regime, because they are always referring to this approval rating, and it's a mistake to compare russia, which is an authoritarian country right now, to undeveloped democracy like we have in eastern europe, for example. we should compare russia to the countries like uzbekistan and tajikistan or zimbabwe, all of these countries. the leaders, they have a rating of 95% and it is just a specific of an authoritarian regime, they have a maximum rating of approval until the very end of their life. so... but i want to ask you, could you tell me, please, what was the support of the soviet...
11:43 pm
..union of the soviet communist party in our country in 1985? 100%. and then, what was the approval of the russian tsar in 1916? more than 100%. but it means nothing, actually. and even in 2011, the rating of putin was about 70%, but out of the blue, hundreds of thousands of people came to the streets asking mr putin to go away. right, but hundreds of thousands are not coming onto the streets today. you had your moment when you ran for the moscow mayoralty in 2013. i think you ended up getting 27% of the vote. that, in a sense, was the high water mark for you. things have not been so good since and now, frankly, you are in deep trouble. when you leave this interview with me, you have to go to kirov to face yet another court case,
11:44 pm
where you're accused of embezzlement, and if you lose the case, you're going to face a new sentence which could involve... but i have the same in 2012, before my mayoral election. i have the same before this rally in moscow's streets and, i guess, from 2010, i've never had a day in my life when i wasn't under criminal prosecution because that's how they fight me. that's true. you've had convictions, you've had house arrest, you may well end up in prison again. your brother is currently in prison in solitary confinement. yes. right. you know that you're treading a very fine line, and if you go one inch too far, you'll end up in prison or. . .who knows? i definitely don't draw this line for myself. ijust do what i can do in this particular moment and i don't care about what the kremlin is doing, what their strategy is about keeping me in prison
11:45 pm
or releasing me. maybe you know that i had actually a moment when they imprisoned me for five years and i spent a night in the prison knowing nothing about what was going on in moscow when tens of thousands of people came to the streets, and they forced, actually, vladimir putin to release me. these people who came into the streets, they're not gone, they're still living in the city, they're still living in the country, and i'm absolutely 100% sure that my programme for this presidential election is the programme based on the needs of the majority of people. let me stop you there. right. are you absolutely determined, you talk about your run for the presidency, you're determined, come what may, to challenge vladimir putin in the election, which we believe will come in 2018? you are going to run, are you? yes. i'm going to run and... well, i'm not a naive person. i understand that the kremlin is very unhappy with me running
11:46 pm
and i understand that they will do everything to prevent me from running. and, recently, several kremlin officials said, "he's not allowed to participate," but still, i'm going to appeal to the people and ask for their support. i mean, in this office where we speak, you've already got your logos organised, navalny 2018, but i put it to you that if you lose this court case in kirov, based on accusations of embezzlement and fraud, you will be barred from running, and whatever you tell me about your determination... it doesn't. .. actually doesn't nothing in the current... well, as i said, they imprisoned me for five years and they released me the next day. so you think... what kind of law? the same with my participation in the mayoral election. it was almost impossible to participate, but when people came to the streets and said, "we're not going to recognise this election without him participating..." so you think you can use
11:47 pm
people power against putin? absolutely. actually, it's the only tool i can use. it's all i have. but, mr navalny, i'm tempted to say to you, get real. you know what happened to khodorkovsky, you know what happened to kasparov, who is now in exile, you know what happened to boris nemtsov. are you telling me to get real? iam real, i can assure you that i'm real. and i have my brother spending time injail, he's took away from his family and, as you mentioned, he's in solitary confinement. and they are really torturing him every time when i'm issuing new investigations, so i'm a guy from real life here in russia. i understand everything and i do believe that people's support can prevail against this strategy putin has against me. boris nemtsov, whom you knew very well, was walking down a street just a couple of hundred metres from the kremlin when he was murdered. that is the reality of moscow today.
11:48 pm
you're not immune from that. in this particular room, i had a meeting with him and volunteers who were preparing the big rally. after this meeting with the volunteers, we went on the street and i was arrested for 15 days and he was killed a week later. so i understand what's going on in russia and i understand there are a lot of risks and i understand the danger, but this is my country. i'm going to fight for my country and i know that i'm right and i know that the development of the country is much better than capturing new territories. look at the map, we're quite a big country, we don't need new territories, and i'm sure that i will explain to the russian people that my alternative is better than vladimir putin. let me just ask you one, perhaps strange question. why do you think you are free to walk the streets of moscow today? so many other opposition people are not, but you are. could it be that you are
11:49 pm
useful to vladimir putin because he can always say, "ah, look, we are a democracy "because alexey navalny is allowed to do his thing, "he's allowed to talk to the bbc, he's allowed to run his "anti—corruption office, that proves what a free "and democratic place we are?" you could be a useful tool to vladimir putin. i don't know about that. yes, i'm allowed to talk to the bbc, but unfortunately i'm not allowed to talk to the russian tv stations. you had an interview with mr peskov and you asked him about me several times. did he ever mention my name? the same as putin. even pro—kremlinjournalists, they are laughing about the situation because for all these years, he never mentioned my name. he's afraid of... ..not about me, but he's afraid of the people who i represent. you talk about dmitry peskov, who i'm going to see again injust a couple of days�* time. he seems supremely confident that vladimir putin has a grip on this country that
11:50 pm
will not be relinquished. what would you say to peskov that might undermine his confidence? well, i guess, a lot of russian people havejust a major question to mr peskov, and the question is, why are you lying all the time? for decades, he's never said a single word of truth. he's lying all the time. and how does he manage to deal with himself? he's getting up in the morning, look at him in the mirror, and said to himself, "today, iwill, again, "i will live "as a lying human being." the problem is, as you've said in this interview, you don't get access to russian state tv, you do not get the sort of media coverage. i never had. you can't win. that's the problem, you just cannot win in the system that russia has today.
11:51 pm
i can and i will. so how do you do it? how do you mobilise these people you claim are out there, all of the anti—putin feeling that you say is in russia today, how do you mobilise it and turn it into a political campaign? well, we started our campaignjust a month ago and so far i have 20,000 volunteers registered in my campaign. it's the biggest amount of volunteers we ever had in the history of modern russia. yes, you're absolutely right, i don't have access to tv. i never had because vladimir putin took over the last independent tv station in 2001, so i never had coverage from the state media, but i can operate without them. in 2013, in the moscow mayoral election, without money, without access to the media, i got almost 30%, and i'm totally
11:52 pm
sure that i would have won in the second tour if, in the first tour, they didn't make the usual fraud in the election. we talked earlier about your brother, who is in prison, in solitary confinement. it was a court case which involved you and him, but, ironically, he was sent to prison and you escaped prison. he wrote to you recently. he said this, he said, "alexey, you cannot, "you must not stop and give in to their demands. "even if you are considering quitting, "it is out of the question." at what point would you decide that this is not worth it, that you've had enough? i really hope that it will be never such a moment and i decide this because it means that everything is useless, what i've done before — all these sacrifices made from my family, my brother, made by boris nemtsov, who was killed, who was shot in the back, close to the kremlin, a lot of other people. we have political prisoners,
11:53 pm
hundreds of them all over russia, and if i will stop, it means all these sacrifices are useless. and they are not. and i do believe in what i'm doing and i do believe that my alternative is better for russia. and i'm absolutely agreed, and i'm absolutely sure that we will succeed and i believe in victory. and, yes... and when you think... we have a tough time right now, and this imperial delusion, yes, but trends, political trends are changing. people became poor, people are asking questions, and i have the support from family and from the people and i'm not going to let them down. alexey navalny, we have to end there, but thank you for being on hardtalk. thank you very much.
11:54 pm
hello there. sunday started the day on quite a wet note for large areas of england, but it was tibenham in norfolk that was the wettest place in the country with 31 millimetres of rain. once that cleared, most of the uk had some decent spells of sunshine and it was an exceptionally mild day. the highest temperature, in hampshire's gosport, was 17 celsius. that's eight degrees celsius above average for this time of the year. it'll stay pretty mild as well as we go through the next few hours. a band of rain crosses scotland and northern ireland. the rain heavy for a time, but it won't last very long. eventually, we'll start to see that rain encroaching in across parts of northern england and wales as we start off monday morning. a mild and frost—free start to the day, temperatures typically around 7 or 8 degrees. now, through the rest of monday, this band of rain reaches east anglia, south—east england,
11:55 pm
but very weak. just another patch of rain left over and a stripe of cloud. further north—westwards, a ridge of high pressure follows. so for most of the uk, again, we're looking at some fairly lengthy spells of sunshine, a few showers for western scotland. it'll turn a bit cloudier in northern ireland, but i suspect the clouds going to be quite high through the afternoon, so still staying dry and bright. now, for the middle part of the week, we've got further weather systems coming in off the atlantic, so it will be quite wet and windy at times. tuesday, the wettest weather through the morning will be across scotland and northern ireland. again, a weatherfront here bringing some fairly heavy rain, but again, not lasting too long. the weather front moves its way southwards and eastwards whilst weakening, with a mixture of sunshine and showers following to scotland and northern ireland through the afternoon, so that's probably why we'll see some of the best of the sunshine. there'll be some bright weather, though, for central and eastern england and it will be another very mild day. it then turns a lot windier through wednesday, gusts of wind reaching 50 or 60 miles an hour for northern scotland. quite windy for wales and western england, some heavy rain here as well. over the hills of wales and western england, we could see around 50—odd
11:56 pm
millimetres of rain, and that will be enough to bring some renewed concerns that we could see some further localised surface water flooding. it stays mild again, but the mild weather won't last much longer because we swap those mild south—westerly winds for cooler north—westerly winds through thursday and into friday, and that will really drop the temperatures back close to average for the time of year. so thursday, some wet weather moves its way eastwards. quite a windy day. as the rain clears, we'll see lots of showers moving in, and in the colder air, some of those showers will start to fall as snow across the hills in the north, particularly above 300 metres elevation, although you could see a bit of sleet or hail lower down.
11:57 pm
11:58 pm
11:59 pm
welcome to newsday, reporting live from singapore, i'm mariko 0i. the headlines. a member of israel's war cabinet says unless hamas releases all hostages in gaza by the tenth of march, israel will launch a ground offensive into rafah. we came back to no electricity, no food for today. we report on people like tala, and her brother yazid — whose journey we've been following — and who've been waiting in desperation to get out. a british woman is arrested on suspicion of murder following the deaths of three children in bristol. and the bafta goes to...
12:00 am
..0ppenheimer! and it's 0ppenheimer�*s night at the baftas — it led the pack with seven gongs. welcome to bbc news — broadcasting to viewers in the uk and around the world. we start in the middle east, where a member of israel's war cabinet has said the military will move into the overcrowded city of rafah unless hamas releases all hostages by the 10th of march. speaking at a conference injerusalem, benny gantz said, the world must know, and hamas leaders must know — if by ramadan our hostages are not home, the fighting will continue everywhere, to include the rafah area." it comes as refugees
12:01 am
have continued to crowd into rafah,

49 Views

info Stream Only

Uploaded by TV Archive on