welcome to hardtalk, i'm stephen sackur. new york is the ultimate american melting pot, the focus of so many immigrant dreams — but right now, immigration is a hugely contentious political issue in the united states, which makes it a great theme for my guest today — bassem youssef, a comedian who made his name in egypt, who now makes his home in the united states. he's an arab—american who wants his fellow citizens to think hard about the most sensitive of topics. what could possibly go wrong?

bassem youssef. yes?! they laugh that's a great start. yes, it's very hard — hardtalk. it is a great pleasure to welcome you to this show — hardtalk. i'm very, very pleased to be here. thank you so much for having me. i want to beginjust reflecting on the move you made from homeland, egypt, to the united states. about ten years ago, just less, you became a migrant. but i'm just wondering about one particular aspect of the move — your sense of humour. how easy is it for humour to cross borders? very difficult, very difficult. because it's notjust about the words, it's about the music and the rhythm and the cadence. when i started doing stand—up comedy here, i sucked. i was so bad. because it's not aboutjust writing the jokes, it's about finding the same wavelength and the cadence and the rhythm that people receive, they're used to receiving. so, when i went out in comedy clubs, i'm talking to people who are americans. they have different... it's different, so it's not about...

you have to be fluent, you have to be quick and also, you have to match that cadence that people are expecting to hear the words and the jokes in, and that takes time. you talk about learning the rhythms, the cadence, but also, the subject matter has got to change, because in egypt, you were the political satirist. on tv, social media, you had tens of millions of fans who loved the way you mocked those in power, but you couldn't bring that and do it in the united states. well, you come here, you have two choices. you either live in the past and continue talking about what you left behind, but that would be unfair because you're speaking about a country that you're not there any more, so it will not be even... that's not going to be right, because i have to be inside and speak about what happens. because it's easy for me. i have to carry that burden if i'm inside, but outside, it's not. but here it's already a saturated market. you have stephen colbert, jon stewart, trevor noah, all of these people already doing that. america doesn't need a guy coming from egypt to tell them, hey,

let me tell you how your politics should work. so i turned my comedy to be more of a personaljourney. i've always been out of place. i'm someone who's, like, judged for what he would say, because it's different from the mainstream, and some people like it, some people hate it. and i came here, i'm a migrant, and while trump is taking power, so all of this put me in a very unique situation. i was in medicine, i never liked medicine. i always hated it. i went into comedy, i'm not equipped for it. so i always feel like i'm always a fish out of water, so now my comedy is more about... my show, my stand—up comedy show, isjust, like, an hour of personal stories. having to fight through these expectations that are set up against me. i just wonder if there was ever a time, as you were leaving egypt, when you actually wondered whether you wanted to give up on comedy altogether? because you were pretty bitter when you left egypt. very. you felt — i know you felt persecuted because you were.

i mean, there were lawsuits against you, there were threats against you. the sisi regime had come into power and they certainly didn't want your tv show to continue. but not only that, i think you felt, correct me if i'm wrong, but i think you felt many egyptians accused you of a sort of betrayal, because you didn't stick with them. well, that is the problem of iconisation of people. i was a comedian doing what comedians do. and then suddenly, because you do yourjob well, other than... not like people in politics or media, who mess things up, because... my bread and butter is making fun of this. that's my job. so people look at people who are good at theirjobs and then suddenly, they consider them their voice, their representation, and that's wrong because i'm not. so, at a certain point, when... but they might say to you, "what? you mean you didn't mean it when you were mocking sisi and the regime?" yes, of course. "you didn't really care about the future?" of course i care. but at a certain point, i'm a human being and there's personal safety and there's family

safety and the people i care about, so now i have to balance between hurting the people that i care about or continue being the voice of the people, which doesn't work. but couldn't you have been an agent of change in egypt if you had chosen to stay? and there's one great example that you might look to and say, "you know what? i could have been a bit like him." what about volodymyr zelensky? he was a tv comedian, a huge success in ukraine, and he translated that into, well..." so you think if i stayed in egypt, i would be now like volodymyr zelenskyy? not in somewhere else, more cosy and warmer and darker? you mean a prison cell? maybe. you explain to our viewers and listeners around the world why it is impossible to imagine that you could have made that move into, let's say, activism, political activism, to becoming a voice for the people who wanted change in your country. that's not my role. not every comedian who's good at his job should be a politician. the fact that you say something and it resonates with people doesn't mean that you have to go and lead

the people into politics. i'm a comedian. you never had any interest in that? i never, no. never? because i love comedy as it is. because i don't want to be an activist or a politician or a freedom fighter or a thought leader. i'm not. that's the problem. people get so fascinated with comedians. "you're the philosophers of our age." no, we're comedians. we just point out stuff and it's up to the people to make their change. but, basically, that's our role. our role ends at the edge of the theatre and the edge of the television. some people might take it further, i respect that, but for me, i prefer to stay in my comedy box. going back to the transition in the united states, i just looked at the way your career worked when you first came here. it was tough at the beginning. i mean, you were going to clubs in the us where audiences didn't like you, didn't find you funny. there were guys 20 years younger than you getting more laughs than you. yeah, and i would go back home crying and say things like, "well, i guess i'm done." and, sort of, the fall...

the rise and the fall was very steep. i went up very fast and i went down very fast and now it's happening again. i thought, "oh, my god, here we go again. when is this going to end?" hang on, i'm not sure i'm following this trajectory. right now, are you on the...? yeah, just because of a couple of interviews, i'm trending now. it's like, "whoa!" and i hear the same thing. "you are our voice, thank you for representing us." like, guys, i'm a comedian. ijust get invited to places and to interviews and i speak my mind. sometimes it's comedic, sometimes it's serious. but it is very, very dangerous to iconise people, because when you iconise people and you make them represent a cause, that is the worst thing that you can do for the cause. something really changed with the sort of seismic, terrible events of october 7th and what happened after that in israel. yes. something changed for you, because you chose to speak to the international media about your feelings as an arab—american comic

about what you were... not as an activist, not as a politician, but as a human. and because i was having... i have a little bit of fame, i was invited on shows, so i speak up. but that is my role and i want to continue doing it, but when i get invited into places, because i think it's unfair. i was very... can i be very honest? i was very... i didn't care about what's happened. i consider the middle east problem a chronic problem, never go away, but sometimes, you wake up, i said... you mean, before october 7th, you were sitting there in la thinking, "you know what? the last thing i want to give my mind to is thinking about the israel—palestine problem." yes — it's a chronic problem that nobody wants to get... you get there, it's quicksand, you get sucked in. how can you talk about anything that all of these regimes, all of these countries have failed? so this is like a hornet nest. and then what happens, i still didn't want to get in, but then, when i saw the people,

the pro—israeli people, talking on the media and my blood was boiling because it's like, this is plain lies. this is plain lies. and i think it triggered something in me. i left egypt because i was not able to say what's on my mind. and i came here for the land of the free he home of the brave, where you can say anything you want. and then suddenly, when you speak about certain things, you get accused of all things right, left, and centre. if i'm criticising israel, why is this anti—semitic? it's like when you criticise saudi arabia or iran or egypt, nobody calls you an islamophobe, right? but it's only israel. this kind of, like, "oh..." you feel all of this, like, victimisation, all of this, like, guilt—tripping. israel is a government, is a country, and i don't know why, as an american, i can say whatever i want about trump or biden, and then i come to israel and all of these, like, booby traps that you cannot go into. it is unfair and it's against the freedom of expression and that is against the promise that america and the west give the people, to tell

them to come to us. but what you did, your approach to addressing this issue, was fascinating, because, let's name him, piers morgan, a british interviewer colleague of mine in the media... and he's very good at what he's doing. yeah, and what you did on his show was kind of subversive, because you went on an international tv show and, using the darkest form of sort of satire and sarcasm that i can think of, you actually said, "you know what? let them kill the palestinians. they should even kill more." and you said, you know, "i know palestinians. my wife's family is palestinian. it's impossible to kill them, but i keep trying." and there was this sort of edge of horrible sarcasm, dark sarcasm to what you were saying, which subverted the entire interview. how carefully did you think about what you were doing? i don't know, because i was going there and i could be losing my career or losing... actually, i lost stuff after the piers morgan interview. i was cast to be in the movie

superman, and they talked to me about it, and i did my audition right before, one day before the strike, the sag—aftra strike, started. and then after the strike, i was in australia, and then my agent said, "oh, they've changed the script and you're not in the movie any more." now, i'm being very careful with you, bassem, because i'm not entirely sure... you were going to be in superman? not as superman, but, like... i'm too old for that. but, like, i was actually in a very good role, and i spoke to... they loved my audition. they called me one hour after my audition, "you got the role." and then i was very... i was very sad for a couple of days. i was angry. i was angry at warner brothers, i was angry at dc... because, what, you're basically saying they changed the role in a way that made it a role you didn't want to do any more? no, no. or were they actively saying... no, no, i was cancelled from the whole movie. .."you're cancelled, we don't want you"? but in hollywood, you can't really hold them for that because that happens the whole time. they change scripts all the time. and so part of me, iwas angry, and, like, "what?

"i lost a role in superman, that superhero movie, because of what i had to say, because i voiced my opinion?" so when i went on the piers morgan show, knowing that i can lose stuff, which i did, and also i can lose my people, because if i didn't go hard enough. the only way that i did... you say that my satire was dark. you know why my satire was dark? because reality was darker. because we were sitting there, talking, commending israel for warning people before they bombed them. just, what?! this is satire. this is satire. the fact that they are killing people and they feel sad about it. and then i read about it. there's an expression in hebrew called "yorim ve bochim". have you heard about it? yorim ve bochim. it literally translates to "shooting and crying". and it refers to a group of media and books and movies in the israeli media, when the soldiers talk about how sad they are for shooting people and shooting the enemy. we see that in american movies. it's not about the thousands of people they killed, it's about the mental health of the soldiers who pulled the trigger, and that's why,

"we're killing civilians. "it's unfortunate. " what?! you... and they guilt trip you — sorry, i want to say one thing. because i'm sure, remember, how many times did they bring up dresden or hiroshima? it's like, "oh, you did it, so we can do it, too." so what's next? they enslave palestinians like when you enslave black people? this whole idea about guilt tripping you, so... what i... sorry. no, no, it's fascinating — but what i'm hearing from you is a lot of thought you have had about what israel is doing, what zionism represents to you. what perhaps i hear less of is your thoughts about hamas and how you as now an arab—american, but as an egyptian, too, how you relate to the islamism and the commitment to violence and the commitment to establishing a palestinian islamic entity from the sea to the riverjordan. how you make sense of that and whether you have a critique of that, too, which you want to express?

or whether you don't feel able to express that. no, no, i'm sorry, did you say, like, an islamic entity from the river to the sea? did you say that? i did. but people shouting "from the river to the sea" are not really islamic, and many of them don't agree with hamas. "the river to the sea" is a palestinian chant, it's not an islamic chant. that's number one. number two, "from the river to the sea" is not coined by the palestinians, it's coined by the israelis. it's in the likud party charter in 1977. they say from the sea to thejordan, there is only going to be israeli sovereignty. so they coined the thing before that. second of all, when i criticise israel, i criticise it because it's in a position of power. i am absolutely no fan of hamas, and from my history in egypt, the muslim brotherhood doesn't like me and i don't like them either. i am against a theocracy and i'm against religion being in politics. and that's why i find it very hypocriticalfrom israel, saying, "we are a secular, democratic state," and at the same time, "we are a jewish state." what are you? are you a theocracy or a democracy? are you something secular for everybody or are you just exclusively for the jews? so that's why. ..

why is it when the west talks about everything, it's liberal, secular, democratic, only when it comes to israel, it's biblical — why? that's the problem. try to convince me that israeli have more right in this land, more the palestinians, without using religion. they can't. because even the liberal side — "oh, we're atheist, wwe don't believe in god." but it is... "god gave them... "they are promised people, promised land." promised by whom? "chosen people." chosen by whom? my god? your god? whose god? so what i get is that you came to this country saying, "you know what, i'm done with politics, i'm done with people's expectations that i can somehow deliver change because i am, in the end, just a comedian." and here you sit today with doubtless many arab—americans, but indeed many arabs in the arab world, and particularly many palestinians, now seeing you as a hugely important voice, giving expression to their anger, their feeling that the international

media is unfair, feeling that their message never gets through. are you now feeling uncomfortable again? very! you've become a messenger. i'm scared, i'm scared. and when people come to my shows, if you're expecting that i'm going to talk about israel and hamas, no. i've been working on my hour for five years. there is not a singlejoke in my... if you come to my show expecting that i'm going to speak about piers morgan and israel, no. i tell that because i'm a comedian. i'm actually interested in this interface between comedy and the most difficult subjects, and right now one of the most difficult subjects in the world is what's happening in gaza. for you as a comedian, is it possible... is it possible to find laughs, to makejokes about what is happening? it is very sensitive. it is very sensitive, and sometimes you throw certain things in the middle. i was in australia and i sold out the opera house, and so they added two extra rows of chairs in front of the front row. and i went out and i said, like... i started making jokes about those

people in the first row, they paid for first row, and then suddenly they found people coming in and blocking their view. and then i said, like, "these are not extra chairs, these are illegal settlements," and people laughed. so you have little things, you know. and by the way — i can talk... comedy doesn't have to be insulting. but you are interested about the interface of comedy and politics, and i'll tell you why this is important. you know this whole thing about comedy in america, about pc — politically correct. you cannot say this, you cannotjoke about this. the same! why can't we joke about what israel is doing? and why is everyjoke or every criticism of israel is, like, as if it's an anti—jewish sentiment? it is not, it is not. and this is the thing... but, i mean, it's interesting you say that, because, on the one hand, i totally get it, as a comedian you want to be free. you want to be free to address even the most difficult issues because, god knows, you know, the human experience does generate humour and laughs, however dark it may be. on the other hand,

right now, we know... the figures suggest it's undeniable that there's a spike in anti—semitism in the united states, just as there is a spike in islamophobia... absolutely. ..and attacks on arab—americans. so i just wonder whether you as a comedian feel a responsibility to, you know, to tone it down, to find a language that isn't going to inflame, or do you have to ignore that? no, here's the thing. people need to separate between criticism and comedy and between inciting for hate. you can make fun of muslims, right, left and centre. but there's a difference between calling them... ..they are a terrorist. this is the difference between comedy and real inciting terror. when i go out and i speak about the government, i can say whatever i want about the government because i say more about my government, right? you say more about your government. so the problem is

the switch, because... of course there is a rise of anti—semitism. i mean, i can never even imagine, like, ajewish kid going to college and being shot in his spine because he spoke in hebrew. same way that happened to hisham awartani, a palestinian kid who was wearing keffiyeh and was shot because he was speaking in arabic in vermont, in brown university. and there arejewish kids who are locked in their dorms because they're afraid to go out. i just have to say, for legal reasons, i mean, those cases you refer to are terrible, but they are still under investigation... under investigation, court cases, nothing is final, but it's happening. i actually want to, before we end, bring it back to you living now with your family in los angeles, an american citizen, and some will watch this and will think, "hmm, this is a guy who lives in a country which sends, or is seeking to send, another $16 billion worth of assistance, military and other assistance,

to israel, on top of the $4 billion a year it already sends to israel, and yet this man says that he is proud to be an american, and he likes living in america." yes, i believe in the idea of america. america gave me a second chance. america was good to me. i am proud and i want my kids to be raised as proud egyptian—americans. i like america — the idea. what i don't like is american policies, what i don't like is the american government sabotaging this idea. so, me, as an american, i want to have a say in changing the discourse of american politics, so i would be more proud. when people... except, you're the bassem youssef who, at the beginning of this interview, said to me, "stephen, i want to be really clear, i'm a comedian, i don't seek to change things." yes, yes, but the thing is, what happened is that... you can change things by comedy, not by activism. meaning that i'm not going to run into political rallies, i don't want to be part of this. but as an american, how do i feel when an american representative

wears the uniform of the idf? when my politicians that i vote to... ..receive their money from special interest group, whether aipac or nra. so, suddenly, my votes are gone to waste. so now the democrats are blackmailing us. it's like, "if you don't vote for biden, trump will come." so what has biden done for us? i actually coined a new name for biden, joe biden. joe geriatric genocide biden. the guy is not even good enough to be a genocide guy. he is geriatric. he's dementic. and i want him to go down in history losing this because people need to understand... do you? yes. as a significant voice in the arab—american community, you're telling me you wantjoe biden... i want him to lose. i don't care about trump winning, but i wantjoe biden, because this guy, this guy, he is one... all we asked from him was ceasefire. stop the killing, stop the killing. how difficult is this? and then you try to blackmail us with reproductive rights and minority rights.

and i said, if a woman... i hope that will never happen. if a woman loses her reproductive rights in tennessee, she can go to california to get an abortion. if a woman in gaza, she does have nowhere to go. so you are basically killing... you are locking people in and you are allowing israel, who has been a burden on american politics, a burden on american economy, a burden on economy of american best interest in the country. and it doesn't bother you that donald trump, if he were watching this interview, would think, "that's fantastic. i've got people like bassem youssef saying that he wantsjoe biden to lose the election." i'm not going to be blackmailed into saying that i'm going to enable trump to win. the democrats did that to themselves. and they cannot continue pretending that they are on our side, and that they need our votes during the election, and for the next four years, they screw us up and they kill our people back in the middle east. so i'm not going to be blackmailed into that. whatever happens — it's weird. i've been only a citizen for four years, i was so happy... i voted for bernie sanders, by the way.

right. and then i voted for biden, because i'm blue no matter who. and then i find this. so, you know what? america took four years in order to make me check out of elections, so good job. good job! good job, biden! a final thought — i have a feeling there will be some egyptians listening and watching this, hoping, wishing, that one day maybe bassem youssef will come home so that they can enjoy his comedy again, but also, maybe just enjoy the impact he has on egypt's culture. have you left egypt totally behind, or is that homecoming, that imagined homecoming, a possibility? one thing that i've learned is not to reminisce on the past. maybe i'll be back. egypt is my country, my home country, where i spent a0 years of my life. it's a very significant part of my life that i cannotjust forget, but right now i'm focused on how can i make my life and the life of my family... my family doesn't deserve to be bounced around four,

five countries in the past ten years, and they need stability. sometimes your loyalty has to be first to your family and the people near to you and close to you, and the bigger issue has to come second. bassem youssef, it's been a pleasure to talk to you. thanks for being on hardtalk. thank you so much. hello there. for many parts of the uk, monday looks like being a dry day with some sunny spells. the rain that we've had in the south — and there was an inch of rain in cornwall — has been close to that low pressure. that is tending to move away, restricting the rain towards the far southeast of england. but there's quite a breeze blowing for england and wales, so it won't be as cold as it was the previous night. we're looking at a frost, though, in scotland,

maybe some icy patches following a few wintry showers, which will fade away quickly in the morning. plenty of sunshine for scotland and northern ireland on monday. sunny spells for england and wales. the rain pushing away from kent, sussex and the channel islands. but it's a northeasterly wind that follows that will bring the odd shower into eastern england, perhaps into the midlands, as well. and it'll feel chilly in that wind across the southeast of england. temperatures could make ten celsius, but we're looking at 8—9 being more typical — similar to what we've had over the past few days. the winds do drop across south eastern areas after dark, and it gets cold and frosty for england and wales ahead of that weather front moving down from the northwest, together with some stronger winds. so a band of wet and windy weather sweeps through scotland and northern ireland, pushes into england and wales. most of the rain will be over the hills, followed by sunshine and blustery showers. wintry over higher parts of scotland. may well be largely dry across the midlands, east anglia, and the southeast — but it'll be quite cold, and there could be some mist and fog around in the morning. that weather front bringing the rain continues to weaken as it moves

south eastwards after dark, and then we await the next weather system coming in from the atlantic. it's just a brief window of dry weather. there'll be some sunshine after a chilly start, but we'll see the cloud moving in more quickly, and the rains moving across more quickly as well — notjust across northern ireland now, but other western parts of the uk before the end of the afternoon. the best of the sunshine in the far east of england. but temperatures are likely to reach double figures — and, together with these bands of rain coming in from the west, we've got some milder air on thursday night, so no frost this time. we still have a weather front to move through on thursday — that's that band of rain clearing scotland, pushing into england and wales. and that will be followed by more showers — and these will be turning wintry over the hills. as things just get a little bit colder, we could well see temperatures across eastern england, though, in double figures — but only for a while, because the colder air will push down across the whole of the country by the end of the week. and, with low pressure in charge, we've got showers or longer spells of rain, and there may even be some winteriness over the hills.

welcome to newsday, reporting live from singapore. i'm steve lai. the headlines... israel's prime minister vows to go ahead with an offensive in southern gaza — we report on the aid

situation on the ground. conservatives are criticised after suspending an mp in the uk — over claims of racism — but the deputy pm won't say whether the comments were islamophobic. president zelensky reveals 31,000 ukrainian troops have been killed in the two—years of war with russia. and thousands rally in support of former brazilian president, jair bolsonaro — he's hit back at claims he plotted a coup to stay in power. live from our studio in singapore — this is bbc news. it's newsday. welcome to bbc news. we begin in the middle east, where the israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu has vowed to go ahead with an offensive in gaza s southernmost most city rafah —

whatever happens in hostage negotiations. nearly 1.5 million palestinians are sheltering there.