but their heads held high. remarkable fa cup final one which and i were back in september and has owned the club about £700,000. as for coventry, they did a thoroughly professionaljob you tonight and they did a thoroughly professional job you fa cup quarterfinal in 50 years.

are some in the conservative party using "anti—muslim racism as an electoral campaign tool", as one muslim tory peer claims? what is the political significance of mr anderson's comments and suella braverman�*s claim that the labour leader is in "hock to islamists"?

is anti—muslim hatred being used as a dog whistle, as some conservatives claim? we'll talk to this tory mp, who says lee anderson's comments were islamophobic, and the chair of the glasgow conservative association, who says he's satisfied with the way the prime minister has handled the row. also tonight, a warning from a former national front and bnp member that content on the dark web is fuelling dangerous extremism. i wouldn't have regarded you as to be like me in anyway so i'd have viewed you is like an alien, as someone who had no interest in me. that is how you are taught to view people who are not part of your specific demography. and many victims of the infected blood scandal still have�*t received compensation — why not? we'll talk to two people directly affected and this labour mp, who's been campaigning for redress. islamophobia is "rooted in racism

and is a type of racism that targets expressions of muslim—ness or perceived muslim—ness" — that's the definition put forward by the all party parliamentary group on british muslims. despite that, the prime minister today declined to say that lee anderson's claim that the mayor of london had been taken over by islamists was islamophobia. he did say the comments were "wrong" and "unacceptable", and he has suspended mr anderson for refusing to apologise. that suspension came a day after former home secretary suella braverman wrote in a newspaper column that the leader of the labour party is "in hock to the islamists", and several days after former conservative prime minister liz truss stood by as donald trump's former right—hand man, steve bannon, described tommy robinson, the founder of the english defence league with a string of convictions, as a "hero". so is anti—muslim racism being used as an "electoral campaign tool", as conservative peer baroness warsi — the most senior muslim woman in the tory party — claims?

here's nick. iconic faces of the modern conservative party, each with a knack for garnering headlines. i need a few more people to help make the trip if you are willing to come to britain... a, the trip if you are willing to come to britain...— to britain... a former prime minister _ to britain... a former prime minister hoping _ to britain... a former prime minister hoping to - to britain. .. a former prime minister hoping to work- to britain... a former prime | minister hoping to work with to britain... a former prime i minister hoping to work with a former trump aide who once called former trump aide who once called for the beheading of the us chief medic. a former home secretary who said that its lists, is extremist and anti—semites are now in charge. i don't believe these limits have got control of our country but i do believe they have got control of khan and they have got control of london. fist khan and they have got control of london. �* ,.,, , ., london. at the poster boy of the tory rebel _ london. at the poster boy of the tory rebel who _ london. at the poster boy of the tory rebel who said _ london. at the poster boy of the tory rebel who said london - london. at the poster boy of the tory rebel who said london wasl tory rebel who said london was proposed to lee first muslim mayor is run by his extremist so—called mates, words edison later described

as clumsy but he declined later to apologise. an intervention that went too far for apologise. an intervention that went too farfor number ten apologise. an intervention that went too far for number ten trip lee anderson was stripped of the conservative whip. a distancing by number ten from the views of suella braverman and liz truss, but no sanctions. and lee anderson's moss led to evolving tory responses. i don't believe lee anderson was intending to be islamophobic but nonetheless i understand the concern, particular in relation to the mayor of london. i concern, particular in relation to the mayor of london.— concern, particular in relation to the mayor of london. i have been clear that what _ the mayor of london. i have been clear that what lee _ the mayor of london. i have been clear that what lee said - the mayor of london. i have been clear that what lee said was - the mayor of london. i have been. clear that what lee said was wrong and unacceptable and that is why we suspected _ and unacceptable and that is why we suspected the whip. the and unacceptable and that is why we suspected the whip.— suspected the whip. the whip was removed immediately. _ suspected the whip. the whip was removed immediately. and - suspected the whip. the whip was l removed immediately. and muslim hatred is wrong. bill removed immediately. and muslim hatred is wrong.— hatred is wrong. all that 11 days after the official _ hatred is wrong. all that 11 days after the official conservative i after the official conservative twitter account book a slip of the tongue by khan to imply labour is

anti—semitic. tongue by khan to imply labour is anti-semitic.— anti-semitic. antiracist but also anti-semitic. _ anti-semitic. antiracist but also anti-semitic. downing - anti-semitic. antiracist but also anti-semitic. downing street i anti-semitic. antiracist but also l anti-semitic. downing street had hirh anti-semitic. downing street had hiuh ho es anti-semitic. downing street had high hepes that _ anti-semitic. downing street had high hopes that today _ anti-semitic. downing street had high hopes that today the - anti-semitic. downing street had high hopes that today the media | high hopes that today the media would be focusing on the prime minister possible transport plan for the north of england but instead we are focusing on noises off from three different politicians, so what going on? there is genuine concern across the political spectrum that those mainly peaceful protests against the war in gaza are witnessing anti—semitic language and anti—semitic chanting, and lee anderson's response is to accuse sadiq khan of bowing to the extremists, a live too far for number ten. extremists, a live too far for numberten. many extremists, a live too far for number ten. many conservative mps believe the next general election is all but lost so they are getting ready for the debate that will then take place. i ready for the debate that will then take lace. ~ . , ., take place. i think we are seeing to some extent _ take place. i think we are seeing to some extent the _ take place. i think we are seeing to some extent the conservative - take place. i think we are seeing to| some extent the conservative party moving away from being mainstream centre—right party to being what i

would call a populist radical right party, and that is in some ways, i think, because they want to see off the challenge from reform uk, but we can go back further than that and look at the way the conservatives, they were worried about ukip and the brexit party, and this isjust pushing them further to what some people would consider a more extreme position. i people would consider a more extreme osition. ~ ., people would consider a more extreme osition. ~ . . ., position. i think we are falling at a sliahtl position. i think we are falling at a slightly different _ position. i think we are falling at a slightly different camps. - position. i think we are falling at a slightly different camps. for i position. i think we are falling at i a slightly different camps. for me, the liz— a slightly different camps. for me, the liz truss comments speak to her moving _ the liz truss comments speak to her moving it _ the liz truss comments speak to her moving it to— the liz truss comments speak to her moving it to her moving into a slightiv— moving it to her moving into a slightly more extreme fringe than what she — slightly more extreme fringe than what she suggested she was going to when she _ what she suggested she was going to when she was pm for a short period. short— when she was pm for a short period. short shrift — when she was pm for a short period. short shrift for liz truss but so is drupal has mixed feelings about lee anderson and suella braverman. i don't think either of them are making — don't think either of them are making points beyond the pale first up making points beyond the pale first up i making points beyond the pale first up i think— making points beyond the pale first up i think the language they are using _ up i think the language they are using is— up i think the language they are using is stupidly inflammatory and has completely distracted from the

real debates about, because we have something _ real debates about, because we have something where we demand in a liberal_ something where we demand in a liberal democracy certain behaviours?— liberal democracy certain behaviours? . , liberal democracy certain behaviours? . behaviours? the political waters are turbulent. we asked for an interview with the government and they declined. let's talk to bolton north east conservative mp mark logan, who's on the cross—party parliamentary group on british muslims, and the head of the glasgow conservative association, naveed asghar. he is deputy chairman of the conservative muslim forum. thank you for being with us. mark logan, neither the prime minister nor the deputy prime minister has condemned mr anderson's comments as islamophobic or anti—muslim racism. why not? islamophobic or anti-muslim racism. wh not? , ., . �*, why not? first of all, it's important _ why not? first of all, it's important to _ why not? first of all, it's important to point - why not? first of all, it's important to point out i why not? first of all, it's i important to point out that, why not? first of all, it's - important to point out that, if you were to ask me if the comments were islamophobic, and i think there is a sublime phobia in the comets that were made... truths; sublime phobia in the comets that were made-"— sublime phobia in the comets that were made... ~ , ., �* were made... why wouldn't the prime minister say — were made... why wouldn't the prime

minister say that? _ were made... why wouldn't the prime minister say that? he _ were made... why wouldn't the prime minister say that? he has _ were made... why wouldn't the prime minister say that? he has taken - minister say that? he has taken action regarding _ minister say that? he has taken action regarding the _ minister say that? he has taken action regarding the edison. - minister say that? he has taken action regarding the edison. he| minister say that? he has taken - action regarding the edison. he has lost the whip from the party to make an apology, which he declined to do, but i think the prime minister is serious to make sure we are stamping out both islamophobia and anti—semitism when it comes to society at large. anti-semitism when it comes to society at large-— anti-semitism when it comes to socie at larae. ., , . , society at large. some conservatives includin: society at large. some conservatives including baroness _ society at large. some conservatives including baroness warsi _ society at large. some conservatives including baroness warsi says - society at large. some conservatives including baroness warsi says you i including baroness warsi says you can't stamp it out if you can't label it accurately, and it is, according to her others, islamophobic. do you think it is? from the comments that were made, i find there is islamophobia in those comments. it doesn't mean when it comes to is —— when it comes to lee anderson, i believe he is inherently racist, but i think he should reflect on the comments he has made and take the opportunity to offer an apology because obviously my constituency represents a massive muslim community, nearly 70% of my constituents, a fantastic community and i am proud to have pakistani

british in my constituency and they contribute so much to bolton life and to british life. i think we need to move on in this country. we have 6.5% of the population who consider themselves from a muslim background. i think we need to move people from looking at islamophobia and being phobic about things to looking about an opportunity and seeing where you can have opportunities in these diverse backgrounds in our country again, my indian muslim community, looking at the economic rise of india they relations you can build between the countries to move away from fear and think of the opportunity you can have. built a more cohesive society. [30 opportunity you can have. built a more cohesive society.— opportunity you can have. built a more cohesive society. do you think there are some _ more cohesive society. do you think there are some conservatives, i there are some conservatives, perhaps lee anderson or suella braverman, who are playing on peoples fears, rather than, as sadiq khan says, politicians that address space? khan says, politicians that address sace? ., ., ., . space? coming from northern ireland, i can sa is space? coming from northern ireland, i can say is from _ space? coming from northern ireland, i can say is from hundreds _ space? coming from northern ireland, i can say is from hundreds of -

space? coming from northern ireland, i can say is from hundreds of years i i can say is from hundreds of years of ethnic conflict between protestants and catholics, those of unionist and nationalist background, it only serves people in the short term to try and get people angry at one another and to try and go that route, so i think we need to move away from that kind of and find the similarities we have, because we live in one of the greatest countries in the world. i come from the northern irish background but i have the privilege to represent bolton. i don't have a bottom accent. i bolton. i don't have a bottom accent. ., . . bolton. i don't have a bottom accent-_ you i bolton. i don't have a bottom i accent._ you are accent. i did notice that. you are also from _ accent. i did notice that. you are also from that _ accent. i did notice that. you are also from that neck— accent. i did notice that. you are also from that neck of _ accent. i did notice that. you are also from that neck of the i accent. i did notice that. you are| also from that neck of the woods. but i had people from a different skin colour or different back then from me. they are very english and british and they are proud to support the english football team. they are the business entrepreneurs of the future of the one of my best performing secondary schools is a majority muslim boys secondary school so these are people invested in the british dream so we shouldn't call that these pupils being

islamist. d0 call that these pupils being islamist. , ., ~ . islamist. do you think there are some of your — islamist. do you think there are some of your colleagues - islamist. do you think there are some of your colleagues who i islamist. do you think there are l some of your colleagues who are using anti—muslim racism as an electoral campaign to mark i using anti-muslim racism as an electoral campaign to mark i hope the are electoral campaign to mark i hope they are not- _ electoral campaign to mark i hope they are not. do _ electoral campaign to mark i hope they are not. do you _ electoral campaign to mark i hope they are not. do you think- electoral campaign to mark i hope they are not. do you think people | they are not. do you think people like t ler they are not. do you think people like tyler bevan _ they are not. do you think people like tyler bevan and _ they are not. do you think people like tyler bevan and lee - they are not. do you think people | like tyler bevan and lee anderson are some that's the claim for baroness warsi. i are some that's the claim for baroness warsi.— are some that's the claim for baroness warsi. i don't believe that's the _ baroness warsi. i don't believe that's the case. _ baroness warsi. i don't believe that's the case. they _ baroness warsi. i don't believe that's the case. they are i baroness warsi. i don't believe. that's the case. they are making these _ that's the case. they are making these comments and that is what it's leading _ these comments and that is what it's leading us— these comments and that is what it's leading us to believe. this is not a party— leading us to believe. this is not a party policy. — leading us to believe. this is not a party policy. these comments have been _ party policy. these comments have been made — party policy. these comments have been made by them as individuals. lee anderson came back and said he believes— lee anderson came back and said he believes that the vast majority of muslims— believes that the vast majority of muslims are not islamist and most muslims— muslims are not islamist and most muslims in— muslims are not islamist and most muslims in the uk are decent, hard—working citizens. he muslims in the uk are decent, hard-working citizens.- hard-working citizens. he also refused again _ hard-working citizens. he also refused again to _ hard-working citizens. he also refused again to apologise i hard-working citizens. he also refused again to apologise to . hard-working citizens. he also i refused again to apologise to the mayor of london. but refused again to apologise to the mayor of london.— refused again to apologise to the mayor of london. but rightly so, and this is why he _ mayor of london. but rightly so, and this is why he is _ mayor of london. but rightly so, and this is why he is still _ mayor of london. but rightly so, and this is why he is still suspended. i this is why he is still suspended. he wasn't— this is why he is still suspended. he wasn't to be suspended if he had apologised from the outset. i am sure, _ apologised from the outset. i am sure. when— apologised from the outset. i am sure, when he made these comments on friday. _ sure, when he made these comments on friday. he _ sure, when he made these comments on friday. he did _ sure, when he made these comments on friday, he did not assume he would

be suspended by the party and be sitting _ be suspended by the party and be sitting outside the conservative party— sitting outside the conservative party for— sitting outside the conservative party for the going forwards, british— party for the going forwards, british muslims contribute millions of pounds — british muslims contribute millions of pounds to the economy of the uk, 4 million _ of pounds to the economy of the uk, 4 million muslims in the uk, of which _ 4 million muslims in the uk, of which 2 — 4 million muslims in the uk, of which 2 million are of a voting age. there _ which 2 million are of a voting age. there are _ which 2 million are of a voting age. there are about 30 constituents with a strong _ there are about 30 constituents with a strong muslim vote. we need to ensure _ a strong muslim vote. we need to ensure the — a strong muslim vote. we need to ensure the next generation of british— ensure the next generation of british pakistanis and british muslims want to be involved in politics. — muslims want to be involved in politics, and i think how this is playing — politics, and i think how this is playing out at the moment is not giving _ playing out at the moment is not giving them faith in that. we want to be _ giving them faith in that. we want to be a _ giving them faith in that. we want to be a inclusive conservative party at i to be a inclusive conservative party at i think— to be a inclusive conservative party at i think the conservative party is at i think the conservative party is a natural— at i think the conservative party is a natural home for british muslims. should _ a natural home for british muslims. should suella braverman be suspended for writing that keir starmer is in hock to islamists? the for writing that keir starmer is in hock to islamists?— hock to islamists? the prime minister will _ hock to islamists? the prime minister will need _ hock to islamists? the prime minister will need to - hock to islamists? the prime minister will need to deal- hock to islamists? the prime . minister will need to deal with hock to islamists? the prime i minister will need to deal with the comments and the whips will have to deal with— comments and the whips will have to deal with them.—

comments and the whips will have to | deal with them._ i deal with them. what do you think? i can't prejudge _ deal with them. what do you think? i can't prejudge what _ deal with them. what do you think? i can't prejudge what the _ deal with them. what do you think? i can't prejudge what the prime - can't prejudge what the prime minister— can't prejudge what the prime minister will do. can't prejudge what the prime ministerwill do. do can't prejudge what the prime minister will do.— minister will do. do you think suella braverman _ minister will do. do you think suella braverman should i minister will do. do you think suella braverman should be. suella braverman should be suspended?— suella braverman should be susended? , . suella braverman should be susended? u, , . ., suspended? her comments are not acce table suspended? her comments are not acceptable for _ suspended? her comments are not acceptable for the _ suspended? her comments are not acceptable for the but _ suspended? her comments are not acceptable for the but we - suspended? her comments are not acceptable for the but we have i suspended? her comments are not acceptable for the but we have got| acceptable for the but we have got to look— acceptable for the but we have got to look past the comments of these people _ to look past the comments of these people and in general the conservative party is very welcoming. the work my colleagues do up welcoming. the work my colleagues do up and _ welcoming. the work my colleagues do up and down _ welcoming. the work my colleagues do up and down the country, the scottish— up and down the country, the scottish conservatives do in scotland, welcomed or communities, especially— scotland, welcomed or communities, especially british muslims, and we have to _ especially british muslims, and we have to look the wider picture. 0ne have to look the wider picture. one or two— have to look the wider picture. one or two mps— have to look the wider picture. one or two mps make a comment, we shouldn't— or two mps make a comment, we shouldn't take that as the wider party— shouldn't take that as the wider partv bus— shouldn't take that as the wider party bus stance. 27 recommendations were accepted by the party and only a handful— were accepted by the party and only a handful are left to be permitted to strip _ a handful are left to be permitted to strip i'm sure after this weekend that the _ to strip i'm sure after this weekend that the prime minister and other mps will— that the prime minister and other mps will look at them and i am hoping — mps will look at them and i am hoping that action will be taken. mark— hoping that action will be taken. mark logan, former scottish conservative leader ruth davidson said mr anderson comments were a dog

whistle. is that what is really going on?— going on? the colic you are mentioning _ going on? the colic you are mentioning one _ going on? the colic you are mentioning one time i going on? the colic you are mentioning one time eight| going on? the colic you are - mentioning one time eight famous comments around come to my constituency and i would say, come to my constituency in bolton north—east and meet my constituents from a muslim background, spent time with me and see the actual contribution that people from a muslim background. i5 contribution that people from a muslim background.— muslim background. is that an invitation to _ muslim background. is that an invitation to lee _ muslim background. is that an invitation to lee anderson i muslim background. is that an invitation to lee anderson and muslim background. is that an i invitation to lee anderson and saw lebanon? ~ ,,., , invitation to lee anderson and saw lebanon? ~ , , , , , lebanon? absolutely, because these are hard-working _ lebanon? absolutely, because these are hard-working people. _ lebanon? absolutely, because these are hard-working people. we - lebanon? absolutely, because these are hard-working people. we have i are hard—working people. we have many values that they aspire to, which are also very conservative. we need to do more, i think, to reach out to this community flip you look locally, we are ready have. one of our local councillors from a muslim background, actually two in my constituency, one of which works in my wide office, and their contributions are massive. i think my colleagues need to see that in

action. partly comments a dog whistle, though, yes or no?— partly comments a dog whistle, thou~h, es or no? , . , though, yes or no? they are comments i would not make. _ though, yes or no? they are comments i would not make. i _ though, yes or no? they are comments i would not make. i do _ though, yes or no? they are comments i would not make. i do not _ though, yes or no? they are comments i would not make. i do not think- i would not make. i do not think they are helpful in trying to build a cohesive society —— are the comments a dog whistle? at the end of the day, we are all british, irrelevant of your background, your religion, your skin colour, we are all british and we are very proud to be british. ., ~' , ., all british and we are very proud to be british. . ,, , ., ,., , be british. thank you both very much for cominu be british. thank you both very much for coming on — be british. thank you both very much for coming on the _ be british. thank you both very much for coming on the programme - be british. thank you both very much| for coming on the programme tonight and talking to our audience, we appreciate it. thank you. meanwhile, the dark web is seeing a surge in far—right recruiting and propaganda since the hamas atrocities in israel last autumn. that's according to a former member of the far right who is an expert in the dark web. bill andrews used to be a member of the national front and the bnp until 2019, when he left the groups and turned his back on their beliefs. he's now warning that disturbing content on the dark web calling on people tojoin racist causes has been "catalysed" by the aftermath

of the middle east conflict, and is worried it will lead to violence on our streets. he says the rhetoric between politicians at the moment is only aggravating racists. our uk editor, sima kotecha, has this report. the dark web — an additional layer to the internet, but one that isn't accessed by most of us. it's purposefully hidden and is often used for nefarious reasons, such as selling drugs and weapons and spreading hate and violence. bill andrews is a former member of the far right and once believed in white nationalism. he's an expert in the dark web and actively used to be on its forums. so white nationalism is basically trying to establish a ethnocentric state for white people, and that obviously involves a lot

of displacing non—white people or addressing stuff like immigration very drastically. and it's basically the idea that, like, there should be a national hierarchy built upon white people's interests and nobody else. so somebody like me, you wouldn't want to be around — is that right? at that time, that's how i thought, basically. i wouldn't have regarded you as to be like me in any way. so i'd have viewed you as, like, an alien, as someone who had no interest that could ever align with me. that is how you're taught to view people who are not part of your specific demography. bill says since the conflict in the middle east erupted last october, he has seen a dramatic increase in racist propaganda on the dark web, so much so that he's worried it could spill into violence.

we've seen some of the content but have decided not to show it because it's so violent and offensive. there are some people who will be using it as a tool to organise terrorist acts and other people who use it to disseminate materials which are illegal or to just put, like, communities on there that wouldn't be hosted elsewhere. the impact that has on people who are susceptible to radicalisation or already radicalised is it mightjust escalate their pattern of thinking as it is. now, that has various impacts. as to whether they go out and commit terrorism is one question, but it does affect the way people go and interact with the world. we know from previous research there's been a i2—fold increase in hateful social media content being referred to specialist police since the escalation in violence in the middle east. the ngo the institute for strategic dialogue specialises in counter—extremism work. it says its data shows a more

than 500—fold increase in the volume of anti—semitic comments on youtube videos following the attacks. ——more than 50—fold. we found a three—fold increase immediately after october 7th, and that's been sustained as an increase across the month since. we also found graphic and violent imagery which was available on mainstream platforms, which was being delivered to accounts we identified as 13—year—olds. and in addition to that, terrorist content, branded content from people like hamas or the al-qassam brigades also proliferated freely, and doesn't seem to have been taken down. so, again, it's not surprising to hear that he's witnessed such a rise in hateful and violent rhetoric. getting onto the dark net isn't difficult if you know how, and it's generally accessed using dedicated software. but navigating around it can be challenging if you don't know the addresses of the forums.

it anonymises ip addresses, making it harderfor the police to investigate any illegal activity. the online safety bill was brought in to make the internet safer. it puts the onus on firms and gives the regulator ofcom more powers to hold them accountable. this can include hefty fines. even though the dark web is in scope of the bill, experts say it's going to be hard for the regulator to enforce rules because of its anonymity features. ofcom says the government has asked it to focus on the normal internet, where it can have the biggest impact. some people who work in the field of counter—terrorism say parents and professionals must understand that there is no policing of the dark net, that arming people about the potential risks and how it works is the only way to safeguard society. despite the dark web being built on complex technology, it's not as hard to use as some people might think. and if the level of hateful

propaganda on it is on the rise, its impact, experts say, can't be underestimated. sima kotecha there. a spokesperson for ofcom told newsnight, "people mainly use the dark web precisely because they want to avoid scrutiny. "this is a matter first and foremost for law enforcement. we stand ready to help where we can but these are not services that can be easily reached by a regulator." let's speak now tojonathan hall kc, the independent reviewer of terrorism legislation. thank you very much for talking to our audience. what is your assessment of the link between the dark web and terrorism on our streets? i dark web and terrorism on our streets? ~ ., ~ dark web and terrorism on our streets? ~' . ,, , , dark web and terrorism on our streets? ~' . ~ , , . streets? i think the dark web is a repository. _ streets? i think the dark web is a repository. not — streets? i think the dark web is a repository, not something i streets? i think the dark web is a repository, not something used i streets? i think the dark web is a l repository, not something used for massive propaganda outreach, it is quite hard to navigate and find what you want, but the stuff is there. if you want, but the stuff is there. if you want, but the stuff is there. if you want to create a propaganda strategy, you can keep your videos there and you can upload them and

disseminate them, and i am afraid there are some people who really wants to go there. they want to go to forums and look at this stuff and radicalise themselves, and the extreme right view have the view that if you desensitise yourself, which might include looking at child sex abuse material, you look get really foul radicalise a material before you commit an attack, so it is a repository of the worst stuff, if you like, and it is available for terrorists. i5 if you like, and it is available for terrorists-— terrorists. is it realistic in anyway — terrorists. is it realistic in anyway to _ terrorists. is it realistic in anyway to think _ terrorists. is it realistic in anyway to think that i terrorists. is it realistic in. anyway to think that either terrorists. is it realistic in - anyway to think that either ofcom terrorists. is it realistic in _ anyway to think that either ofcom or anyway to think that either ofcom or any of the powers of the online safety act can have any effect on the dark web? it safety act can have any effect on the dark web?— the dark web? it is completely unrealistic. _ the dark web? it is completely unrealistic. the _ the dark web? it is completely unrealistic. the online - the dark web? it is completely unrealistic. the online safety i the dark web? it is completely i unrealistic. the online safety act is about enforcing safety regulations, subsurface web applications like facebook and google, they will be required to comply, and we know who they are, these entities on the dark web are in the mean criminal, they might be advertising firearms, child sex abuse material, terrorism material, heavy encryption, mass of anonymity, they could be anywhere in the world,

i think be frankly impossible for a regulator to come after them for not complying with their objectives. yeah. has to be as real hamas war impacted the terrorism threat in this country?— impacted the terrorism threat in this country?_ -- - impacted the terrorism threat in j this country?_ -- the this country? yes, it has. -- the israel this country? yes, it has. -- the israel hamas— this country? yes, it has. -- the israel hamas war. _ this country? yes, it has. -- the israel hamas war. we _ this country? yes, it has. -- the israel hamas war. we know i this country? yes, it has. -- the israel hamas war. we know thatj this country? yes, it has. -- the i israel hamas war. we know that when events happen — israel hamas war. we know that when events happen overseas, _ israel hamas war. we know that when events happen overseas, it _ israel hamas war. we know that when events happen overseas, it creates i israel hamas war. we know that when events happen overseas, it creates a . events happen overseas, it creates a sense of grievance and urgency. you remember the 2005 attacks on the underground, the ringleader of that, when he made his video before carrying out the atrocity, he referred to palestine and to foreign policy in iraq. we know that a constant build—up of horrific images, of suffering, will or could, and i don't want to be pessimistic about it, but we know from history that these are very powerful, and they have a way of making people feel they have to act. so i think it does quite significantly raise the

risk of an islamist terrorist attack. it might also raise the risk of an extreme right—wing attacks, i don't know, but i think the islamist threat is the one i am most worried about, relating to gaza.— about, relating to gaza. right. and what is the — about, relating to gaza. right. and what is the prevalence _ about, relating to gaza. right. and what is the prevalence of _ about, relating to gaza. right. and what is the prevalence of far i about, relating to gaza. right. and what is the prevalence of far right i what is the prevalence of far right extremism compared to islamist extremism compared to islamist extremism in this country? how does it compare? it is extremism in this country? how does it compare?— it compare? it is really hard, because talking _ it compare? it is really hard, because talking about - it compare? it is really hard, because talking about the i it compare? it is really hard, i because talking about the dark it compare? it is really hard, - because talking about the dark web, there could be thousands of people looking at this material, and we know from the arrest figures, that there is a huge number of particularly young people getting caught up in this material. we also know there are some very serious plots. in fact, the number of deaths caused by extreme right—wing terrorism in this country is far less than the number of deaths caused by... that is of the sinner consolation who are attacked, but overall, i think in terms of the risk of death being caused, the greater threat as is the amazon. 0k. greater threat as is the amazon. ok. i want to greater threat as is the amazon. ok. i want to ask — greater threat as is the amazon. ok. i want to ask you _ greater threat as is the amazon. ok. i want to ask you about the safety

of mps, obviously it has been a huge part in our public conversation particularly in the last few days, but in recent years, one by an islamist extremist, wonder by a far right extremist. as the safety of mps a terrorism issue? i right extremist. as the safety of mps a terrorism issue?- mps a terrorism issue? i think it is, first and _ mps a terrorism issue? i think it is, first and foremost _ mps a terrorism issue? i think it is, first and foremost for - mps a terrorism issue? i think it is, first and foremost for the i mps a terrorism issue? i think it. is, first and foremost for the mps is, first and foremost for the mp5 to about their personal safety and the protection they might need, and i definitely and seamless do not to try tatar protesters with the brush, but we do know that online there are really serious threats to mp5 to kill them, in the case of female mps to rape them. we know that the intent is to change government policy, to change the way that people vote in the houses of parliament. that falls within the core terrorism, if you're threatening serious violence against someone, in order to change government policy and to intimidate mps, then that probably requires in the most extreme cases some sort of counterterrorism response, because it is notjust about counterterrorism response, because it is not just about the counterterrorism response, because it is notjust about the safety of

individual mp which is so important for them, individual mp which is so important forthem, but individual mp which is so important for them, but it's also about wider democracy. if people no longer feel they can vote freely because of a background thread, so it may be that in the most serious cases, the stronger counterterrorism powers, the powers to investigate, should be used to deal with that particular threat. , . ., threat. does that some of the lan . ua . e threat. does that some of the language used _ threat. does that some of the language used in _ threat. does that some of the language used in public- threat. does that some of the i language used in public discourse worry you?— worry you? everything in public discourse can _ worry you? everything in public discourse can be... _ worry you? everything in public discourse can be... when i worry you? everything in public discourse can be... when a i worry you? everything in public i discourse can be... when a muslim worshipper was murdered in 2017 by a far right terrorism attacker, he was radicalised by a bbc three documentary. everything said in the public domain can be used to radicalise, i'm afraid, and the temperature at the moment is quite high. 50 temperature at the moment is quite hi.h_ . ., temperature at the moment is quite hiuh. . ., . ., temperature at the moment is quite hi.h_ . ., . ., . high. so what do we draw from that, then, if everything _ high. so what do we draw from that, then, if everything in _ high. so what do we draw from that, then, if everything in the _ high. so what do we draw from that, then, if everything in the public- then, if everything in the public domain can be used to radicalise? brute domain can be used to radicalise? we t to domain can be used to radicalise? - try to bear down on the risk that someone who is becoming interested

in the radicalisation process can find really, really bad stuff. going back to your piece on the dark web, trying to reduce the amount of eyeballs on this stuff, and there is properly not a technical solution, i don't think there is a legal solution. maybe it is more about parents just making sure they don't allow a smartphone their child's bedroom, where they can access all of this material, because i think what we know is that people who are about to commit a tax often use this material to gee themselves up. we know that one of the piano jaya's killus was in the dark web, and enjoyed looking at some horrific stuff —— one of brianna ghey�*s killers. stuff -- one of brianna ghey's killers. .. , stuff -- one of brianna ghey's killers. , ., stuff -- one of brianna ghey's killers. , . , ., stuff -- one of brianna ghey's killers. , . , . , killers. exactly, and it is a bit trite to say. _ killers. exactly, and it is a bit trite to say, but _ killers. exactly, and it is a bit trite to say, but no _ killers. exactly, and it is a bit trite to say, but no parent i killers. exactly, and it is a bit. trite to say, but no parent would allow a stranger into their child's bedroom, but a child on the dark web can see the most horrific things. thank you very much for talking to

our audience. this week, a protest is planned outside parliament of those affected by the infected blood scandal, one of the biggest medical disasters in the nhs's history. almost a year ago, the head of the infected blood inquiry published an interim report saying that a compensation scheme should be "set up with urgency." that hasn't happened yet. today, the house of lords debated the issue, with the aim of speeding up compensation. mps have called it the worst treatment disaster in nhs history. in the �*705 and �*80s, more than 30,000 patients were infected with hiv and hepatitis c through contaminated blood, mostly through blood transfusions. the majority of patients had haemophilia or other treatable blood disorders. some women were given the blood during childbirth. at the time, the uk wasn't able to meet the demand for blood, so a key protein used in the process — called factor viii —

was often imported from the united states, where prisoners and other at—risk groups were paid to donate blood. of the 1,250 people who contracted hiv after being given infected blood, half of them later died from an aids—related illness. another 30,000 patients contracted hepatitis c. of that group, at least 2,050 later died of liver failure or cancer, caused by the disease before an effective treatment became widely available. a public inquiry into the infected blood scandal was set up in 2017. in april 2023, sir brian langstaff, the chair of the inquiry, published his final recommendations for a full compensation scheme for those directly affected by the scandal and their relatives. the government said it accepts the moral case for compensation and interim payments of £100,000 each have already been made to around 4,000 victims

and some bereaved partners. but ministers have said they're not in a position to make a final decision on further payouts, which could total billions of pounds, until they've seen the inquiry�*s findings in full. that should come in may. but campaigners say time is running out. they say one person who was given infected blood dies every four days, making the speed of compensation key. let's speak now to mel mckay, who contracted hiv after a blood transfusion when she was around the age of five years old, and also stuart cantrill, whose dad died from aids after being contaminated with infected blood, and dame diana johnson, who leads the all—party parliamentary group on haemophilia and contaminated blood. welcome, all of you. i want if you could begin by telling our audience

what happened to you and how it affected your life. for me, i went to an operation around the age of five. when i had my tonsils out, in a week, i haemorrhaged and they had to rush me back to hospital. at the time, we were living in london. they said to my parents, if we don't give her this, your daughter is going to die. all they said was, we've got to give this to your daughter or she is going to die. it wasn't until we moved up north, to sheffield, in 85

that i got through to the sheffield children's, but they were looking not specifically for hiv, they were actually looking for any breathing tendencies, which came back negative, but they stumbled across something else. it turned out to be hiv. my parents were then told around the age of ten. this was in 1987. i wasn't told about hiv until i was age 1a. and i never even heard of hiv or what it had done. but,

over the years, i've been in and out of hospital countless amounts of times because of having such a low immune system. it's notjust the hiv, because of the hiv interacting through, my inhaler, it caused me to develop something else. so i have two serious conditions that i have to take medicine for the rest of my life. so through being infected with hiv. ., ~ life. so through being infected with hiv. . ~ _, life. so through being infected with hiv. . ~ i. ., life. so through being infected with hiv. . ., , ., ., hiv. thank you for sharing that with our audience. _ hiv. thank you for sharing that with our audience. i'm _ hiv. thank you for sharing that with our audience. i'm going _ hiv. thank you for sharing that with our audience. i'm going to - hiv. thank you for sharing that with our audience. i'm going to bring i hiv. thank you for sharing that with our audience. i'm going to bring in i our audience. i'm going to bring in stuart, if i may. can i ask you what happened to your dad? he

stuart, ifi may. can i ask you what happened to your dad?— happened to your dad? he was a haemophiliac, _ happened to your dad? he was a haemophiliac, and _ happened to your dad? he was a haemophiliac, and i— happened to your dad? he was a haemophiliac, and i knew- happened to your dad? he was a haemophiliac, and i knew this i haemophiliac, and i knew this growing — haemophiliac, and i knew this growing up and i knew what haemophilia was, so he had bleeding in his— haemophilia was, so he had bleeding in hisjoints _ haemophilia was, so he had bleeding in hisjoints and occasionally haemophilia was, so he had bleeding in his joints and occasionally would io in his joints and occasionally would go to— in his joints and occasionally would go to hospital and have that age treatment and that would ease up his joints _ treatment and that would ease up his joints. obviously, the factor eight was infected so, as i was a teenager. _ was infected so, as i was a teenager, i saw my dad progressively -et teenager, i saw my dad progressively get worse _ teenager, i saw my dad progressively get worse and worse and he died when i was get worse and worse and he died when i was 15 _ get worse and worse and he died when i was 15 he _ get worse and worse and he died when i was 15. he was a shell of a man by the end _ i was 15. he was a shell of a man by the end of— i was 15. he was a shell of a man by the end of it — i was 15. he was a shell of a man by the end of it. it's something you really— the end of it. it's something you really don't want to see as a teenager~ _ really don't want to see as a teenager. it turns your world upside down _ teenager. it turns your world upside down i_ teenager. it turns your world upside down iwas— teenager. it turns your world upside down. i was at school. i was doing my gcses — down. i was at school. i was doing my gcses. and then, suddenly, it's 'ust my gcses. and then, suddenly, it's just me _ my gcses. and then, suddenly, it's just me and — my gcses. and then, suddenly, it's just me and my mum. and the way it's affected _ just me and my mum. and the way it's affected my— just me and my mum. and the way it's affected my mum, she passed away in 2010, _ affected my mum, she passed away in 2010, but— affected my mum, she passed away in 2010, but it _ affected my mum, she passed away in 2010, but it was a long, slow decline — 2010, but it was a long, slow decline after that. it destroyed her life as _ decline after that. it destroyed her life as well. and that stays with you _ life as well. and that stays with you ht— life as well. and that stays with ou. �* ., , ., life as well. and that stays with ou. ~ . , ., , ., life as well. and that stays with ou. ~ . ~ ., you. at what point did you know it was because _ you. at what point did you know it was because he _ you. at what point did you know it was because he had _ you. at what point did you know it

was because he had received i you. at what point did you know it i was because he had received infected blood? mr; was because he had received infected blood? g , was because he had received infected blood? y , , was because he had received infected blood? g , , . blood? my parents were very clever. the hid it blood? my parents were very clever. they hid it from _ blood? my parents were very clever. they hid it from me. _ blood? my parents were very clever. they hid it from me. i— blood? my parents were very clever. they hid it from me. i had _ they hid it from me. i had suspicions, but he fell over at home and broke _ suspicions, but he fell over at home and broke his hip injuly 1989, suspicions, but he fell over at home and broke his hip injuly1989, so he was _ and broke his hip injuly1989, so he was taken into hospital, and it was at _ he was taken into hospital, and it was at that— he was taken into hospital, and it was at that point i think they knew the end _ was at that point i think they knew the end was close, so my mum finally told me _ the end was close, so my mum finally told me what it was and then he died at the _ told me what it was and then he died at the end _ told me what it was and then he died at the end of august. he never came home _ at the end of august. he never came home. , ., ., at the end of august. he never came home. , . . . ., at the end of august. he never came home. ,. , home. diana johnson, in december, our home. diana johnson, in december, your amendment — home. diana johnson, in december, your amendment was _ home. diana johnson, in december, your amendment was passed, i home. diana johnson, in december, i your amendment was passed, despite government opposition, which would mean that victims are paid compensation within three months of the bill becoming law. what has happened since? the the bill becoming law. what has happened since?— the bill becoming law. what has happened since? the bill has now one to happened since? the bill has now gone to the _ happened since? the bill has now gone to the house _ happened since? the bill has now gone to the house of— happened since? the bill has now gone to the house of lords, i happened since? the bill has now gone to the house of lords, who | gone to the house of lords, who today— gone to the house of lords, who today started _ gone to the house of lords, who today started a _ gone to the house of lords, who today started a debate _ gone to the house of lords, who today started a debate that i today started a debate that particular— today started a debate that particular clause. _ today started a debate that particular clause. i- today started a debate that i particular clause. i understand today started a debate that - particular clause. i understand the government— particular clause. i understand the government recognise _ particular clause. i understand the government recognise now- particular clause. i understand the government recognise now of- particular clause. i understand the government recognise now of the. government recognise now of the house _ government recognise now of the house of— government recognise now of the house of commons, _ government recognise now of the house of commons, despite i government recognise now of thei house of commons, despite their whipping — house of commons, despite their whipping against _ house of commons, despite their whipping against that _ house of commons, despite their. whipping against that amendment, house of commons, despite their- whipping against that amendment, so they are _

whipping against that amendment, so they are now— whipping against that amendment, so they are now extending _ whipping against that amendment, so they are now extending the _ whipping against that amendment, so they are now extending the bill - whipping against that amendment, so they are now extending the bill to i they are now extending the bill to cover— they are now extending the bill to cover scotland _ they are now extending the bill to cover scotland and _ they are now extending the bill to cover scotland and northern i they are now extending the bill to i cover scotland and northern ireland, because _ cover scotland and northern ireland, because at_ cover scotland and northern ireland, because at the — cover scotland and northern ireland, because at the moment _ cover scotland and northern ireland, because at the moment it _ cover scotland and northern ireland, because at the moment it only - cover scotland and northern ireland, i because at the moment it only covers england _ because at the moment it only covers england and _ because at the moment it only covers england and wales, _ because at the moment it only covers england and wales, and _ because at the moment it only covers england and wales, and this- because at the moment it only covers england and wales, and this affected | england and wales, and this affected the whole _ england and wales, and this affected the whole uk, — england and wales, and this affected the whole uk, so _ england and wales, and this affected the whole uk, so the _ england and wales, and this affected the whole uk, so the competition- the whole uk, so the competition needs— the whole uk, so the competition needs to — the whole uk, so the competition needs to be — the whole uk, so the competition needs to be for— the whole uk, so the competition needs to be for the _ the whole uk, so the competition needs to be for the whole - the whole uk, so the competition needs to be for the whole of - the whole uk, so the competition needs to be for the whole of the i needs to be for the whole of the country — needs to be for the whole of the country and _ needs to be for the whole of the country. and they— needs to be for the whole of the country. and they are _ needs to be for the whole of the country. and they are also - needs to be for the whole of the i country. and they are also going needs to be for the whole of the i country. and they are also going to put forward — country. and they are also going to put forward another— country. and they are also going to put forward another amendment, l country. and they are also going to put forward another amendment, i| put forward another amendment, i understand, — put forward another amendment, i understand, to _ put forward another amendment, i understand, to deal— put forward another amendment, i understand, to deal with _ put forward another amendment, i understand, to deal with some - put forward another amendment, i understand, to deal with some of. put forward another amendment, i. understand, to deal with some of the specifics— understand, to deal with some of the specifics around — understand, to deal with some of the specifics around what _ understand, to deal with some of the specifics around what this _ understand, to deal with some of the specifics around what this arm's - specifics around what this arm's length _ specifics around what this arm's length body— specifics around what this arm's length body which _ specifics around what this arm's length body which will - specifics around what this arm's length body which will pay - length body which will pay compensation _ length body which will pay compensation will - length body which will pay compensation will look . length body which will pay l compensation will look like, length body which will pay - compensation will look like, so we are waiting — compensation will look like, so we are waiting to— compensation will look like, so we are waiting to see _ compensation will look like, so we are waiting to see those _ compensation will look like, so we - are waiting to see those amendments. to be _ are waiting to see those amendments. to be honest. — are waiting to see those amendments. to be honest. the _ are waiting to see those amendments. to be honest, the fact— are waiting to see those amendments. to be honest, the fact they— are waiting to see those amendments. to be honest, the fact they had - are waiting to see those amendments. to be honest, the fact they had to - to be honest, the fact they had to be forced — to be honest, the fact they had to be forced into _ to be honest, the fact they had to be forced into accepting _ to be honest, the fact they had to be forced into accepting this - be forced into accepting this amendment— be forced into accepting this amendment now— be forced into accepting this amendment now is - be forced into accepting this i amendment now is shameful. be forced into accepting this - amendment now is shameful. as we said in— amendment now is shameful. as we said in the _ amendment now is shameful. as we said in the package, _ amendment now is shameful. as we said in the package, in— amendment now is shameful. as we said in the package, in april- amendment now is shameful. as we said in the package, in april last - said in the package, in april last year. _ said in the package, in april last year. he — said in the package, in april last year. he said. _ said in the package, in april last year, he said, we— said in the package, in april last year, he said, we can't- said in the package, in april last year, he said, we can't wait- said in the package, in april last year, he said, we can't wait any| year, he said, we can't wait any longer — year, he said, we can't wait any longer we've _ year, he said, we can't wait any longer. we've been _ year, he said, we can't wait any longer. we've been fighting - year, he said, we can't wait any longer. we've been fighting all| year, he said, we can't wait any. longer. we've been fighting all the way since — longer. we've been fighting all the way since april— longer. we've been fighting all the way since april to _ longer. we've been fighting all the way since april to get _ longer. we've been fighting all the way since april to get the - way since april to get the government— way since april to get the government to _ way since april to get the government to do - way since april to get the government to do what . way since april to get the l government to do what he recommended. _ government to do what he recommended. pack- government to do what he recommended. pack in - government to do what he recommended. pack in a i government to do what he _ recommended. pack in a statement, they say, _ recommended. pack in a statement, they say, this — recommended. pack in a statement, they say. this was _ recommended. pack in a statement, they say, this was an _ recommended. pack in a statement, they say, this was an appalling - they say, this was an appalling tragedy— they say, this was an appalling tragedy and _ they say, this was an appalling tragedy and our— they say, this was an appalling tragedy and our thoughts - they say, this was an appalling tragedy and our thoughts are l they say, this was an appalling - tragedy and our thoughts are made with att— tragedy and our thoughts are made with all those — tragedy and our thoughts are made with all those affected. _ tragedy and our thoughts are made with all those affected.— with all those affected. justice needs to be —

with all those affected. justice needs to be delivered - with all those affected. justice needs to be delivered for- with all those affected. justice needs to be delivered for the l needs to be delivered for the victims and we have accepted the moral case for compensation. this covers completes issues and it's what we consider the needs of the community and far—reaching standards. the government intends to respond in full to sir brian's recommendations for wider compensation following the publication of the inquiry�*s final report. you are risky your eyebrows. what's wrong with that? thea;r report. you are risky your eyebrows. what's wrong with that?— what's wrong with that? they have been saying _ what's wrong with that? they have been saying this — what's wrong with that? they have been saying this for _ what's wrong with that? they have been saying this for almost - what's wrong with that? they have been saying this for almost a - what's wrong with that? they have been saying this for almost a year. | been saying this for almost a year. are you _ been saying this for almost a year. are you saying they don't believe they will come forward after the final report? i they will come forward after the final report?— final report? i think they are trackin: final report? i think they are tracking things _ final report? i think they are tracking things out. - final report? i think they are tracking things out. they - final report? i think they are | tracking things out. they had final report? i think they are - tracking things out. they had final recommendations last april and sir brian— recommendations last april and sir brian told — recommendations last april and sir brian told them they should act then they haven't. they keep saying they are waiting — they haven't. they keep saying they are waiting for the final report but there _ are waiting for the final report but there will— are waiting for the final report but there will be no additional information about competition in the final report. i am sick and tired. i was 15_ final report. i am sick and tired. i was 15 when _ final report. i am sick and tired. i was 15 when my dad died. i'm going to be— was 15 when my dad died. i'm going to be 50— was 15 when my dad died. i'm going to be 50 in— was15 when my dad died. i'm going to be 50 ina— was 15 when my dad died. i'm going to be 50 in a couple of months. a much _ to be 50 in a couple of months. a much longer do i have to wait? i will believe _

much longer do i have to wait? i will believe it when i see it. mel mcka , will believe it when i see it. mel mckay. what — will believe it when i see it. isi mckay, what would your message be to the government tonight?— the government tonight? practice what ou the government tonight? practice what you preach. _ the government tonight? practice what you preach, basically. - what you preach, basically. campaign, community, getting sick and tired of being kind of... it feels like we have been pushed aside ever since the post office scandal. ever since that's been brought up, it feels like we have been now pushed sideways, and not so much forgotten about, but it's taken them... it feels like we are never going to get anywhere. it's back to square one. we've been fighting for decades and it's unfair. it's

affecting our morale and wellbeing and mental health because it's been going on for so long. without people like diana johnson, she has been an absolute trooper. without her, we wouldn't be where we are today, so thank you, diana, for what you've been fighting for all these years for us. in been fighting for all these years for us. . . been fighting for all these years for us. .. ,., been fighting for all these years for us. .. y., ., ,., ., for us. in fact, you have said that this scandal _ for us. in fact, you have said that this scandal is _ for us. in fact, you have said that this scandal is bigger— for us. in fact, you have said that this scandal is bigger than - for us. in fact, you have said that this scandal is bigger than the . for us. in fact, you have said that i this scandal is bigger than the post office scandal. why do you say that? i have said that, and penny mordaunt said that _ i have said that, and penny mordaunt said that she — i have said that, and penny mordaunt said that. she said _ i have said that, and penny mordaunt said that. she said the _ i have said that, and penny mordaunt said that. she said the post— i have said that, and penny mordaunt said that. she said the post office - said that. she said the post office scandal— said that. she said the post office scandal is— said that. she said the post office scandal is dreadful— said that. she said the post office scandal is dreadful but _ said that. she said the post office scandal is dreadful but this - said that. she said the post office scandal is dreadful but this one i said that. she said the post office scandal is dreadful but this one is| scandal is dreadful but this one is on a _ scandal is dreadful but this one is on a whole — scandal is dreadful but this one is on a whole different _ scandal is dreadful but this one is on a whole different level - scandal is dreadful but this one is| on a whole different level because of the _ on a whole different level because ofthe number— on a whole different level because of the number of _ on a whole different level because of the number of people _ on a whole different level because of the number of people who - on a whole different level because of the number of people who have died, _ of the number of people who have died. the — of the number of people who have died, the number— of the number of people who have died, the number of— of the number of people who have died, the number of families- died, the number of families affected. _ died, the number of families affected, so— died, the number of families affected, so that's _ died, the number of families affected, so that's why- died, the number of families affected, so that's why it - died, the number of families affected, so that's why it is i affected, so that's why it is shameful— affected, so that's why it is shameful the _ affected, so that's why it is shameful the government. affected, so that's why it is i shameful the government add affected, so that's why it is - shameful the government add on affected, so that's why it is _ shameful the government add on with the recommendations— shameful the government add on with the recommendations from _ shameful the government add on with the recommendations from sir- shameful the government add on with the recommendations from sir brian i the recommendations from sir brian from last— the recommendations from sir brian from last april — the recommendations from sir brian from last april and _ the recommendations from sir brian from last april and started _ the recommendations from sir brian from last april and started to - the recommendations from sir brian from last april and started to pay. from last april and started to pay interim _ from last april and started to pay interim payments. _