he was told to delay pay—outs to sub postmasters who were wrongly prosecuted, sparking a bitter row with the business secretary kemi badenoch. he told reporters he was looking forward to setting out his side of the story. before he appears the mps will hear from the current post office chief executive nick read and first three sub—postmasters including alan bates, the man who gave his name to the itv drama that brought the scandal to wider public attention. you may hear mention of the group litigation order or glo scheme — that is one of a number of compenstation schemes and involves the original 555 sub postmasters and sub—postmistresses led by alan bates in a landmark case against the post office. earlier this morning, when answering a question

carl creswell who is director of business resilience at the department of business and trade, said that as of the end of last week only a third of victims have submitted claims. we published data at the end of january and at that point it was 58 full claims that have been received, 41 have been accepted and 28 had been paid. that's what we set out in the memorandum that we sent to the committee prior to today. as of the end of last week, my team gave me the data last night, we have received 106 full claims, we have made 104 offers, and 80 of those have been absented, and 78 of those have been absented, and 78 of those have been absented, and 78 of those have been paid. that changes day to day and is moving quite rapidly. in addition to the 106 full claims, we received 41 partial claims, so we

have got 147 of that 478 in the system. have got 147 of that 478 in the s stem. �* , ., ., have got 147 of that 478 in the s stem. �*, ., ., ., ., system. let's get more now from our business correspondent. _ system. let's get more now from our business correspondent. he - system. let's get more now from our business correspondent. he also - system. let's get more now from our business correspondent. he also said during those hearings that overall, the compensation is expected to go above the £1 billion that has been allocated to it.— above the £1 billion that has been allocated to it. that's correct. one ofthe allocated to it. that's correct. one of the things _ allocated to it. that's correct. one of the things you _ allocated to it. that's correct. one of the things you take _ allocated to it. that's correct. one of the things you take away - allocated to it. that's correct. one of the things you take away from | of the things you take away from listening — of the things you take away from listening to mr creswell and his colleagues talk is the sheer complexity and size of the project of compensating the supposed masters — of compensating the supposed masters. we know that over £160 million _ masters. we know that over £160 million has — masters. we know that over £160 million has been paid out so far to over 2700 — million has been paid out so far to over 2700 victims —— sub—postmaster is. over 2700 victims —— sub—postmaster is that's _ over 2700 victims —— sub—postmaster is that's only— over 2700 victims —— sub—postmaster is. that's only the start of it. the clip that— is. that's only the start of it. the clip that we — is. that's only the start of it. the clip that we heard earlier was referring _ clip that we heard earlier was referring to one of three schemes and he _ referring to one of three schemes and he was — referring to one of three schemes and he was referring to the group litigation— and he was referring to the group litigation 0rder, and he was referring to the group litigation order, the scheme which is set _ litigation order, the scheme which is setup _ litigation 0rder, the scheme which is set up to— litigation order, the scheme which is set up to further compensate the postmasters who took the court case to the _ postmasters who took the court case to the high _ postmasters who took the court case to the high court and won in 2019 and that— to the high court and won in 2019 and that is— to the high court and won in 2019 and that is the story that is told

in the _ and that is the story that is told in the itv— and that is the story that is told in the itv drama. a lot of the compensation they one after that court _ compensation they one after that court case — compensation they one after that court case was swallowed up in legal fees and _ court case was swallowed up in legal fees and finance cost and the government is trying to compensate them, _ government is trying to compensate them, but _ government is trying to compensate them, but out of nearly 500 people eligible _ them, but out of nearly 500 people eligible to— them, but out of nearly 500 people eligible to make a claim under that claim, _ eligible to make a claim under that claim, "— eligible to make a claim under that claim, —— scheme, only100 have made claims _ claim, —— scheme, only100 have made claims and _ claim, —— scheme, only100 have made claims and fewer than 100 have actually— claims and fewer than 100 have actually been paid out. later we will hear— actually been paid out. later we will hear from alan bates himself, who has— will hear from alan bates himself, who has been critical of the way that compensation has been paid out under— that compensation has been paid out under the _ that compensation has been paid out under the scheme and he says it has been _ under the scheme and he says it has been tangled up in a bureaucratic nightmare — been tangled up in a bureaucratic nightmare and i'm sure he will not mince _ nightmare and i'm sure he will not mince his — nightmare and i'm sure he will not mince his words later today. explain a bit more about _ mince his words later today. explain a bit more about the _ mince his words later today. explain a bit more about the compensationl a bit more about the compensation because there is this £75,000 that they can apply for, isn't there? yes. four members of the group litigation— yes. four members of the group litigation 0rder there is an offer that has— litigation 0rder there is an offer that has been extended to them recently. — that has been extended to them recently, where they can accept £75,000 — recently, where they can accept £75,000 as a sort of flat fee to get that compensation paid out quickly, rather— that compensation paid out quickly, rather than — that compensation paid out quickly, rather than going through the process— rather than going through the process of filing a complete claim which _ process of filing a complete claim which does take time and they have

to provide _ which does take time and they have to provide evidence. we have heard that about — to provide evidence. we have heard that about 70 postmasters have accepted — that about 70 postmasters have accepted that so far. we will also hear _ accepted that so far. we will also hear about — accepted that so far. we will also hear about some of the other schemes _ hear about some of the other schemes. there is a scheme called the horizon — schemes. there is a scheme called the horizon shortfall scheme which is set _ the horizon shortfall scheme which is set up _ the horizon shortfall scheme which is set ”p to— the horizon shortfall scheme which is set up to compensate people who have not— is set up to compensate people who have not been convicted but lost money _ have not been convicted but lost money because of horizon, and there is another— money because of horizon, and there is another scheme called the overturned compensation scheme which is for people who did get compensation but were not part of the group — compensation but were not part of the group litigation order. so paying — the group litigation order. so paying out under all those three schemes — paying out under all those three schemes. ., , paying out under all those three schemes. ., _ , , schemes. the government says they want to try to _ schemes. the government says they want to try to get — schemes. the government says they want to try to get all— schemes. the government says they want to try to get all of— schemes. the government says they want to try to get all of the - want to try to get all of the convictions quashed and compensation sorted out this year and by the sounds of it that's going to be a tough ask. it sounds of it that's going to be a tough ask-— sounds of it that's going to be a touh ask. ., , ., ., sounds of it that's going to be a touuhask. ., ., ., , tough ask. it was always going to be tou . h, tough ask. it was always going to be tou:h, i tough ask. it was always going to be tough. ithink- _ tough ask. it was always going to be tough, ithink. nick— tough ask. it was always going to be tough, i think. nick reed _ tough ask. it was always going to be tough, i think. nick reed is - tough ask. it was always going to be tough, i think. nick reed is going i tough, i think. nick reed is going tough, i think. nick reed is going to appear— tough, i think. nick reed is going to appear in front of the committee later on— to appear in front of the committee later on and he is the chief executive of the post office and has always _ executive of the post office and has always said they have no interest in delaying _ always said they have no interest in delaying this. they cannot move forward — delaying this. they cannot move forward as— delaying this. they cannot move forward as a business until this issue _ forward as a business until this issue is— forward as a business until this issue is sorted and the compensation

issue is sorted and the compensation is paid _ issue is sorted and the compensation is paid but _ issue is sorted and the compensation is paid. but nonetheless it is complicated and there are a huge number— complicated and there are a huge number of— complicated and there are a huge number of claimants and all their circumstances are different. paying the mat _ circumstances are different. paying the mat has proved to be complex, and that's— the mat has proved to be complex, and that's likely to remain the case — and that's likely to remain the case we _ and that's likely to remain the case. we will also hear from henry staunton, — case. we will also hear from henry staunton, who been involved in this row with— staunton, who been involved in this row with kemi badenoch. he says he was told _ row with kemi badenoch. he says he was told to— row with kemi badenoch. he says he was told to effectively go slow on compensation payments. the minister has contested that. we have also heard _ has contested that. we have also heard from mr creswell who said it was incorrect to say that the post office _ was incorrect to say that the post office was — was incorrect to say that the post office was told to go slow on compensation payments. this office was told to go slow on compensation payments. this is the first time that _ compensation payments. this is the first time that henry _ compensation payments. this is the first time that henry staunton - compensation payments. this is the first time that henry staunton has l first time that henry staunton has spoken publicly, and until now he has been sticking with what he has been saying. has been sticking with what he has been saying-— has been sticking with what he has been saying. that's right and it has been saying. that's right and it has been interesting _ been saying. that's right and it has been interesting to _ been saying. that's right and it has been interesting to hear— been saying. that's right and it has been interesting to hear with - been saying. that's right and it has been interesting to hear with how. been saying. that's right and it has i been interesting to hear with how he handles— been interesting to hear with how he handles this, whether he sticks to the line _ handles this, whether he sticks to the line is— handles this, whether he sticks to the line is that interview that he gave _ the line is that interview that he gave to — the line is that interview that he gave to the sunday times two weekends ago, which really kind of ignited _ weekends ago, which really kind of ignited this row. it is going to be

fascinating to hear what he has to say. fascinating to hear what he has to sav~ as _ fascinating to hear what he has to sa . ~ , , ., fascinating to hear what he has to sa . r , , ., fascinating to hear what he has to say. as you said, we will also hear from alan — say. as you said, we will also hear from alan bates _ say. as you said, we will also hear from alan bates and _ say. as you said, we will also hear from alan bates and a _ say. as you said, we will also hear from alan bates and a couple - say. as you said, we will also hear from alan bates and a couple of. from alan bates and a couple of others of the actual postmasters and mistresses who have been involved in this scandal. mistresses who have been involved in this scandal-— this scandal. yes, we will hear from three sub-postmasters. _ this scandal. yes, we will hear from three sub-postmasters. there - this scandal. yes, we will hear from three sub-postmasters. there is . this scandal. yes, we will hear from i three sub-postmasters. there is alan three sub—postmasters. there is alan bates— three sub—postmasters. there is alan bates himself, who represents members of the group litigation 0rder~ _ members of the group litigation 0rder~ he — members of the group litigation order. he has been very critical of delays _ order. he has been very critical of delays in — order. he has been very critical of delays in the past. then there is also _ delays in the past. then there is also tony— delays in the past. then there is also tony downey, he is a representative of the historical shortfall — representative of the historical shortfall scheme, the horizon shortfall— shortfall scheme, the horizon shortfall scheme, the horizon shortfall scheme as it has been renamed — shortfall scheme as it has been renamed. we will also hear from another— renamed. we will also hear from another postmaster who is a member of the _ another postmaster who is a member of the overturned conviction scheme. i of the overturned conviction scheme. i imagine _ of the overturned conviction scheme. i imagine that they will all tell a similar— i imagine that they will all tell a similar story of the delays that they— similar story of the delays that they have been experiencing in receiving — they have been experiencing in receiving the payouts that they feel they are _ receiving the payouts that they feel they are due. for— they are due. for the moment, they are due. forthe moment, ben, thank you. they due. — forthe moment, ben, thank you. the for the moment, ben, thank you. the person on the screen at the moment is carl creswell, who we have been talking about. he is the director of

business resilience at the department for business and trade. let's listen to what they are saying in the house of commons, where they are being questioned at the moment by the mps. are being questioned at the moment b the mps. ., ., , , by the mps. unfortunately, he is cominu by the mps. unfortunately, he is comin: to by the mps. unfortunately, he is coming to the — by the mps. unfortunately, he is coming to the end _ by the mps. unfortunately, he is coming to the end of _ by the mps. unfortunately, he is coming to the end of his - by the mps. unfortunately, he is coming to the end of his time . by the mps. unfortunately, he is| coming to the end of his time and by the mps. unfortunately, he is i coming to the end of his time and is moving on and that role is there to hold the chair to account, so again it struck me that trying to bypass the public appointments process that the public appointments process that the minister wanted to strengthen the minister wanted to strengthen the board was a step that seemed inappropriate to me, to stop that without consulting government as shareholder. in without consulting government as shareholder.— shareholder. in light of what you have 'ust shareholder. in light of what you have just told — shareholder. in light of what you havejust told us, _ shareholder. in light of what you have just told us, what - shareholder. in light of what you have just told us, what you - shareholder. in light of what you j have just told us, what you think that says — have just told us, what you think that says about recruitment and appointment of henry staunton in the first place? _ appointment of henry staunton in the first place? its appointment of henry staunton in the first place? fisl appointment of henry staunton in the first lace? . , appointment of henry staunton in the first lace? a first place? as i was saying, i did not have initial— first place? as i was saying, i did not have initial concerns - first place? as i was saying, i did not have initial concerns about i not have initial concerns about henry staunton when he joined the board. i think he has a lot of background... board. i think he has a lot of background. . ._ board. i think he has a lot of background... board. i think he has a lot of backuround... �* , ,, ., background... but the process of -auttin background... but the process of putting him _ background... but the process of putting him in — background... but the process of putting him in place _

background... but the process of putting him in place in _ background... but the process of putting him in place in the i background... but the process of putting him in place in the first i putting him in place in the first place? — putting him in place in the first lace? ~ ~ , . putting him in place in the first lace? . ~ , ., ., place? well, i think it is hard for me tojudge- _ place? well, i think it is hard for me to judge- any _ place? well, i think it is hard for me to judge. any people - place? well, i think it is hard for me to judge. any people who i place? well, i think it is hard for l me to judge. any people who have been close to the horizon scandal over a number of years will have encountered concerns about whether people like the government, people like uk gi, act when concerns are raised with them and this is a matter for the post office horizon inquiry. i've been struck by the number of commentators who have queried why the government took this action in relation to the chair but to my mind this is evidence of the government taking a stronger perspective when it hears about things that are not working. in any business, things that are not working. in any business. if _ things that are not working. in any business, if somebody _ things that are not working. in any business, if somebody has - things that are not working. in any business, if somebody has not i business, if somebody has not performed in the way that was hoped, there are _ performed in the way that was hoped, there are questions about the recruitment process. my question is, what does _ recruitment process. my question is, what does it— recruitment process. my question is, what does it say about the recruitment process? it�*s what does it say about the recruitment process? it's hard for me to draw _ recruitment process? it's hard for me to draw many _ recruitment process? it's hard for me to draw many conclusions. i recruitment process? it's hard for| me to draw many conclusions. you will experience in any matter of employment, and this is not strict speaking employment, if things don't seem to be working, you should correct the course and that is what

has happened. that correct the course and that is what has happened-— correct the course and that is what has happened. that draws this first anel to a has happened. that draws this first panel to a conclusion. _ has happened. that draws this first panel to a conclusion. thank i has happened. that draws this first panel to a conclusion. thank you i panel to a conclusion. thank you very— panel to a conclusion. thank you very much— panel to a conclusion. thank you very much to all of our witnesses. mr creswell, you have told us that you are _ mr creswell, you have told us that you are personally signing of the claims _ you are personally signing of the claims made under this scheme and some _ claims made under this scheme and some of— claims made under this scheme and some of those can be signed off in an hour, _ some of those can be signed off in an hour, or— some of those can be signed off in an hour, or less. you have told us that— an hour, or less. you have told us that you _ an hour, or less. you have told us that you still— an hour, or less. you have told us that you still think the process needs— that you still think the process needs to — that you still think the process needs to be sped up and it is not going _ needs to be sped up and it is not going fast— needs to be sped up and it is not going fast enough. you have not been able to— going fast enough. you have not been able to tell— going fast enough. you have not been able to tell us the budgets of the different— able to tell us the budgets of the different schemes, but you are going to write _ different schemes, but you are going to write to _ different schemes, but you are going to write to us with that information. i am sorry that you have _ information. i am sorry that you have not— information. i am sorry that you have not been able to table that in front _ have not been able to table that in front of— have not been able to table that in front of us — have not been able to table that in front of us. you have been able to tell us— front of us. you have been able to tell us that — front of us. you have been able to tell us that you are still failing against — tell us that you are still failing against the timescale is that you have _ against the timescale is that you have set — against the timescale is that you have set. we have only got eight lawyers — have set. we have only got eight lawyers actually working on processing the claims, and 55% of disclosure — processing the claims, and 55% of disclosure reports have been issued and 45% _ disclosure reports have been issued and 45% have not. that implies that there _ and 45% have not. that implies that there are _ and 45% have not. that implies that there are still 215 disclosure

reports _ there are still 215 disclosure reports that are required to be issued. — reports that are required to be issued, and mr francis hasjust told us that— issued, and mr francis hasjust told us that it _ issued, and mr francis hasjust told us that it could take up to six months — us that it could take up to six months to— us that it could take up to six months to process these claims. you are not— months to process these claims. you are not going to hit the deadline of mid august to get these claims are settled _ mid august to get these claims are settled. i�*d mid august to get these claims are settled. �* ~' ., mid august to get these claims are settled. �* ~ ., ., ., ., ,, ., settled. i'd like to go and work on that six-month _ settled. i'd like to go and work on that six-month date _ settled. i'd like to go and work on that six-month date because i i settled. i'd like to go and work on l that six-month date because i don't that six—month date because i don't see a reason why it should take that long, and fast tracking some of the questions of principle to the panel and that should allow us to move forward. my current assessment is that we should be able to hit august with a fair wind, but there are a number of factors outside of our control and you are right to identify the pace of disclosure does you cannot absolutely guarantee us today that that mid august deadline will be hit. and that's why the minister has described it as an aim. we also took steps through the legislation to remove the hard deadline. ., ., ., ., ., deadline. you cannot guarantee that mid-august — deadline. you cannot guarantee that mid-august will _ deadline. you cannot guarantee that mid-august will be _ deadline. you cannot guarantee that mid-august will be the _ deadline. you cannot guarantee that mid-august will be the end - deadline. you cannot guarantee that mid-august will be the end of- deadline. you cannot guarantee that mid-august will be the end of this i mid—august will be the end of this for the _ mid—august will be the end of this for the group litigation order applicants. we for the group litigation order applicants-— for the group litigation order a- licants. ~ ., ., , applicants. we are doing everything we ossibl applicants. we are doing everything we possibly can- — applicants. we are doing everything we possibly can. but _ applicants. we are doing everything

we possibly can. but you _ applicants. we are doing everything we possibly can. but you cannot i we possibly can. but you cannot guarantee _ we possibly can. but you cannot guarantee mid _ we possibly can. but you cannot guarantee mid august. - we possibly can. but you cannot guarantee mid august. no. i we possibly can. but you cannot l guarantee mid august. no. thank we possibly can. but you cannot i guarantee mid august. no. thank you to the _ guarantee mid august. no. thank you to the witnesses.— to the witnesses. order, order. so, that is the — to the witnesses. order, order. so, that is the parliamentary _ to the witnesses. order, order. so, that is the parliamentary debate i that is the parliamentary debate there in the house of commons. it is there in the house of commons. it is the trade and business select committee, who have been talking to members of the business and trade department about compensation for those postmasters and post mistresses tied up in the horizon it scandal. the person speaking at the end was carl creswell, director of business resilience at the department for business and trade, and during his evidence he said at the end of last week only one third of victims had submitted claims. they had received 106 full claims, he said, and made 104 offers. 80 of those have been accepted, and 78 paid. he also said that the total

bill for compensation will exceed the current £1 billion that has been set aside. he also said that he did expect to receive claims from 95% of the 478 members of the group litigation order that is headed by alan bates. talking of alan bates, he and two other sub postmasters who have been involved in the horizon it scandal are due to start giving evidence to the committee of mps within the next half an hour, or so, and we will be back to hear that evidence. a reminder that if you want to continue following that, we are streaming it all day on the bbc iplayer. you just have to navigate to the news channel page to see our live streams on iplayer. as i said, there is the post office scandal, where mps will throughout the day be questioning people about compensation paid to the victims. we are also streaming the coronavirus

inquiry as it begins setting in cardiff, looking at how the pandemic was handled. you can watch those on your tv, was handled. you can watch those on yourtv, online, or on the was handled. you can watch those on your tv, online, or on the iplayer app. and it is true that coronavirus inquiry that we turn now. it has moved to cardiff, where the welsh government �*s handling of the pandemic is being examined. the hearings are scrutinising the rationale of wales �*s the timing of lock downs, which was different to those in england. it will also look at the relationship between the welsh and uk governments during the pandemic. let's head now to the commons, where we are expecting the postmasters to be questioned. taking £36,000 from a did cause bankruptcy for me. they did not

acknowledge that. my bankruptcy for me. they did not acknowledge that.— bankruptcy for me. they did not acknowledge that. my claim has not been submitted _ acknowledge that. my claim has not been submitted yet _ acknowledge that. my claim has not been submitted yet because - acknowledge that. my claim has not been submitted yet because i i acknowledge that. my claim has not been submitted yet because i have l acknowledge that. my claim has not i been submitted yet because i have an overturned _ been submitted yet because i have an overturned conviction that was quashed — overturned conviction that was quashed in 2021. it has taken me the last three _ quashed in 2021. it has taken me the last three yearsjust quashed in 2021. it has taken me the last three years just to build my claim _ last three years just to build my claim because the amount of detail and information that the post office insists _ and information that the post office insists we _ and information that the post office insists we put into it.— insists we put into it. based on what ou insists we put into it. based on what you have _ insists we put into it. based on what you have heard _ insists we put into it. based on what you have heard this i insists we put into it. based on i what you have heard this morning, are you any more comfortable or reassured that the government has now got a grip on this process for providing redress? i’m now got a grip on this process for providing redress?— now got a grip on this process for providing redress? i'm afraid not. it is disappointing _ providing redress? i'm afraid not. it is disappointing and _ providing redress? i'm afraid not. it is disappointing and this - providing redress? i'm afraid not. it is disappointing and this has i it is disappointing and this has been _ it is disappointing and this has been going _ it is disappointing and this has been going for— it is disappointing and this has been going for years, - it is disappointing and this has been going for years, as- it is disappointing and this has been going for years, as you l it is disappointing and this has i been going for years, as you well know _ been going for years, as you well know i_ been going for years, as you well know i can't _ been going for years, as you well know. i can't see _ been going for years, as you well know. i can't see any— been going for years, as you well know. i can't see any end - been going for years, as you well know. i can't see any end to- been going for years, as you well know. i can't see any end to it. i been going for years, as you welll know. i can't see any end to it. mr bates, the — know. i can't see any end to it. bates, the covenant said know. i can't see any end to it. my bates, the covenant said 90% know. i can't see any end to it. bates, the covenant said 90% of office _ bates, the covenant said 90% of office within14 working days and i'm office within14 working days and i'm led _ office within14 working days and i'm led to — office within14 working days and i'm led to believe that yours arrived _ i'm led to believe that yours arrived 111 days after your claim was originally submitted which you

have since — was originally submitted which you have since rejected. in the house yesterday— have since rejected. in the house yesterday there was a lot of talk around — yesterday there was a lot of talk around the £75,000 offer and the minister— around the £75,000 offer and the minister made it clear that the idea is that— minister made it clear that the idea is that those who have got lesser claims, _ is that those who have got lesser claims, that quickens the process, but there — claims, that quickens the process, but there was a mood in the house from _ but there was a mood in the house from the _ but there was a mood in the house from the members who said they felt that £75,000 was derisory and did not take _ that £75,000 was derisory and did not take into account the loss of livelihood — not take into account the loss of livelihood and loss of earnings and also the _ livelihood and loss of earnings and also the wider impact on mental, physical— also the wider impact on mental, physical health and family well—being. do you know physical health and family well— being. do you know how many of the group _ well— being. do you know how many of the group litigation order group have _ the group litigation order group have actually taken up that offer today, _ have actually taken up that offer today, of— have actually taken up that offer today, of £75,000? 1 have actually taken up that offer today, of £75,000?— have actually taken up that offer today, of £75,000? i don't. that miaht be today, of £75,000? i don't. that might be better _ today, of £75,000? i don't. that might be better put _ today, of £75,000? i don't. that might be better put to _ today, of £75,000? i don't. that might be better put to the i might be better put to the solicitors _ might be better put to the solicitors.— might be better put to the solicitors. . , ., ., ,, might be better put to the solicitors. . .,~ , solicitors. and can you take us throu~h solicitors. and can you take us through the — solicitors. and can you take us through the process _ solicitors. and can you take us through the process about i solicitors. and can you take us i through the process about where you think the _ through the process about where you think the main bottlenecks are based on your— think the main bottlenecks are based on your experience?— on your experience? well, the initial one. _ on your experience? well, the initial one, obviously, - on your experience? well, the initial one, obviously, was- initial one, obviously, was disclosure _ initial one, obviously, was disclosure by— initial one, obviously, was disclosure by the - initial one, obviously, was disclosure by the post i initial one, obviously, was. disclosure by the post office initial one, obviously, was- disclosure by the post office on the failure _ disclosure by the post office on the failure of _ disclosure by the post office on the failure of them _ disclosure by the post office on the failure of them to _ disclosure by the post office on the failure of them to disclose. - failure of them to disclose. documentation, _

failure of them to disclose. documentation, because. failure of them to disclose. i documentation, because that failure of them to disclose. - documentation, because that has failure of them to disclose. _ documentation, because that has held up documentation, because that has held up the _ documentation, because that has held up the whole _ documentation, because that has held up the whole thing _ documentation, because that has held up the whole thing. what's _ up the whole thing. what's frustrating _ up the whole thing. what's frustrating about— up the whole thing. what's frustrating about that i up the whole thing. what's frustrating about that is i up the whole thing. what'si frustrating about that is that up the whole thing. what's - frustrating about that is that when the minister— frustrating about that is that when the minister first— frustrating about that is that when the minister first announced, i frustrating about that is that when the minister first announced, 1. the minister first announced, i think— the minister first announced, i think it — the minister first announced, i think it was _ the minister first announced, i think it was in _ the minister first announced, i think it was in march - the minister first announced, i think it was in march 2022, i the minister first announced, i. think it was in march 2022, about this scheme, _ think it was in march 2022, about this scheme, the _ think it was in march 2022, about this scheme, the post _ think it was in march 2022, about this scheme, the post office i think it was in march 2022, about i this scheme, the post office already had the _ this scheme, the post office already had the names— this scheme, the post office already had the names of— this scheme, the post office already had the names of every— this scheme, the post office already had the names of every single - had the names of every single individual— had the names of every single individual that— had the names of every single individual that they— had the names of every single individual that they had - had the names of every single individual that they had to i had the names of every single individual that they had to dol individual that they had to do disclosure _ individual that they had to do disclosure on, _ individual that they had to do disclosure on, but— individual that they had to do disclosure on, but they - individual that they had to doj disclosure on, but they didn't individual that they had to do i disclosure on, but they didn't do anything — disclosure on, but they didn't do anything so— disclosure on, but they didn't do anything so we— disclosure on, but they didn't do anything. so we could _ disclosure on, but they didn't do anything. so we could have i disclosure on, but they didn't do| anything. so we could have been disclosure on, but they didn't do . anything. so we could have been a year ahead — anything. so we could have been a year ahead before _ anything. so we could have been a year ahead before they— anything. so we could have been a year ahead before they really- anything. so we could have been a year ahead before they really got i anything. so we could have been a. year ahead before they really got to -rips year ahead before they really got to grips with _ year ahead before they really got to grips with disclosure. _ year ahead before they really got to grips with disclosure. and, - year ahead before they really got to grips with disclosure. and, despite i grips with disclosure. and, despite the numerous _ grips with disclosure. and, despite the numerous early _ grips with disclosure. and, despite the numerous early meetings i grips with disclosure. and, despite the numerous early meetings we l grips with disclosure. and, despite i the numerous early meetings we had with the _ the numerous early meetings we had with the department _ the numerous early meetings we had with the department to _ the numerous early meetings we had with the department to try _ the numerous early meetings we had with the department to try and - the numerous early meetings we had with the department to try and put i with the department to try and put this scheme — with the department to try and put this scheme together, _ with the department to try and put this scheme together, both - with the department to try and put i this scheme together, both ourselves and the _ this scheme together, both ourselves and the department— this scheme together, both ourselves and the department who _ this scheme together, both ourselves and the department who were - this scheme together, both ourselvesl and the department who were present at those _ and the department who were present at those meetings, _ and the department who were present at those meetings, they— and the department who were present at those meetings, they both - at those meetings, they both emphasise _ at those meetings, they both emphasise the _ at those meetings, they both emphasise the problems i at those meetings, they both emphasise the problems we i at those meetings, they both i emphasise the problems we had at those meetings, they both - emphasise the problems we had had over the _ emphasise the problems we had had over the years — emphasise the problems we had had over the years regarding _ emphasise the problems we had had over the years regarding disclosure. | over the years regarding disclosure. warning _ over the years regarding disclosure. warning after— over the years regarding disclosure. warning after warning _ over the years regarding disclosure. warning after warning was - over the years regarding disclosure. warning after warning was given, i over the years regarding disclosure. i warning after warning was given, but unfortunately — warning after warning was given, but unfortunately i — warning after warning was given, but unfortunately i have _ warning after warning was given, but unfortunately i have the _ warning after warning was given, but unfortunately i have the impression i unfortunately i have the impression that the _ unfortunately i have the impression that the department _ unfortunately i have the impression that the department felt _ unfortunately i have the impression that the department felt it - unfortunately i have the impression that the department felt it would i unfortunately i have the impressionl that the department felt it would be different— that the department felt it would be

different in— that the department felt it would be different in this _ that the department felt it would be different in this case, _ that the department felt it would be different in this case, and _ that the department felt it would be different in this case, and they- different in this case, and they would — different in this case, and they would be — different in this case, and they would be able _ different in this case, and they would be able to _ different in this case, and they would be able to control - different in this case, and they would be able to control post i different in this case, and they- would be able to control post office during _ would be able to control post office during disclosure. _ would be able to control post office during disclosure. but— would be able to control post office during disclosure. but that's - would be able to control post office during disclosure. but that's one i would be able to control post office during disclosure. but that's one ofj during disclosure. but that's one of the big _ during disclosure. but that's one of the big hold-ups _ during disclosure. but that's one of the big hold—ups right— during disclosure. but that's one of the big hold—ups right at— during disclosure. but that's one of the big hold—ups right at the - the big hold—ups right at the outset _ the big hold—ups right at the outset. now, _ the big hold—ups right at the outset. now, i— the big hold—ups right at the outset. now, i know- the big hold—ups right at the outset. now, i know we i the big hold—ups right at the outset. now, i know we are i the big hold—ups right at the i outset. now, i know we are past the big hold—ups right at the - outset. now, i know we are past that nowadays~ — outset. now, i know we are past that nowadays- - -— outset. now, i know we are past that i nowadays- - -_ we nowadays... well, in some ways... we are only halfway _ nowadays... well, in some ways... we are only halfway through. _ nowadays... well, in some ways... we are only halfway through. my - are only halfway through. my understanding _ are only halfway through. my understanding is _ are only halfway through. my understanding is a _ are only halfway through. my understanding is a lot - are only halfway through. my understanding is a lot of- are only halfway through. my understanding is a lot of this| understanding is a lot of this disclosure _ understanding is a lot of this disclosure is— understanding is a lot of this disclosure is pretty- understanding is a lot of this disclosure is pretty rubbish i understanding is a lot of this i disclosure is pretty rubbish that is coming _ disclosure is pretty rubbish that is coming through _ disclosure is pretty rubbish that is coming through as _ disclosure is pretty rubbish that is coming through as well _ disclosure is pretty rubbish that is coming through as well but - disclosure is pretty rubbish that is coming through as well but you i disclosure is pretty rubbish that is. coming through as well but you need to ask— coming through as well but you need to ask the _ coming through as well but you need to ask the lawyers _ coming through as well but you need to ask the lawyers involved - coming through as well but you need to ask the lawyers involved in - coming through as well but you need to ask the lawyers involved in that. l to ask the lawyers involved in that. the merits— to ask the lawyers involved in that. the merits of— to ask the lawyers involved in that. the merits of it _ to ask the lawyers involved in that. the merits of it after _ to ask the lawyers involved in that. the merits of it after all _ to ask the lawyers involved in that. the merits of it after all that - the merits of it after all that time, — the merits of it after all that time, i— the merits of it after all that time, hust— the merits of it after all that time, ijust don't— the merits of it after all that time, ijust don't know. i the merits of it after all that time, ijust don't know. mr. the merits of it after all that time, ijust don't know. time, i 'ust don't know. mr downie, ou time, ijust don't know. mr downie, ou said time, ijust don't know. mr downie, you said eight _ time, ijust don't know. mr downie, you said eight months _ time, ijust don't know. mr downie, you said eight months until- time, ijust don't know. mr downie, you said eight months until your i you said eight months until your decision — you said eight months until your decision. what were the bottlenecks in your— decision. what were the bottlenecks in your opinion? we decision. what were the bottlenecks in your opinion?— decision. what were the bottlenecks in your opinion? we did not have any leual in your opinion? we did not have any legal assistance. _ in your opinion? we did not have any legal assistance. i— in your opinion? we did not have any legal assistance. i had _ in your opinion? we did not have any legal assistance. i had to _ in your opinion? we did not have any legal assistance. i had to do - in your opinion? we did not have any legal assistance. i had to do the i legal assistance. i had to do the application myself. they ask the right questions to me and i gave quite detailed responses, which i think they chose to ignore. they pick certain phrases out. an example, it's fairly obvious why my

bankruptcy happened. they told me that i chose to pay off £100,000 mortgage, ratherthan that i chose to pay off £100,000 mortgage, rather than pay my £20,000 debt. well, that's not the case. i rented a home and my debts were double, nearly £50,000. where they got those figures from, i have no idea. 50 got those figures from, i have no idea. , , , got those figures from, i have no idea. , ,, ., ., idea. so quite distressing to have fiuures idea. so quite distressing to have figures that _ idea. so quite distressing to have figures that you _ idea. so quite distressing to have figures that you don't _ idea. so quite distressing to have figures that you don't recognise i idea. so quite distressing to have i figures that you don't recognise and still continue to treat you with suspicion _ still continue to treat you with suspicion-— suspicion. absolutely. it's like they admit — suspicion. absolutely. it's like they admit they _ suspicion. absolutely. it's like they admit they have - suspicion. absolutely. it's like they admit they have wronged suspicion. absolutely. it's like i they admit they have wronged you, but they don't want to have the conversation.— but they don't want to have the conversation. and how does your conviction _ conversation. and how does your conviction overturn, _ conversation. and how does your conviction overturn, and - conversation. and how does your conviction overturn, and the - conversation. and how does your i conviction overturn, and the process to get— conviction overturn, and the process to get any— conviction overturn, and the process to get any obstacles that you are facing? — to get any obstacles that you are facin: ? g , to get any obstacles that you are facin: ?, , ., ., ., ., facing? just the amount of detail and evidence _ facing? just the amount of detail and evidence the _ facing? just the amount of detail and evidence the post _ facing? just the amount of detail and evidence the post office - facing? just the amount of detail and evidence the post office are | and evidence the post office are insisting — and evidence the post office are insisting we _ and evidence the post office are insisting we have _ and evidence the post office are insisting we have to _ and evidence the post office are insisting we have to provide. . and evidence the post office are insisting we have to provide. ifi and evidence the post office are i insisting we have to provide. if you compare _ insisting we have to provide. if you compare it — insisting we have to provide. if you compare it to— insisting we have to provide. if you compare it to perhaps _ insisting we have to provide. if you compare it to perhaps what - insisting we have to provide. if you compare it to perhaps what has - insisting we have to provide. if you . compare it to perhaps what has been announced _ compare it to perhaps what has been announced recently, _ compare it to perhaps what has been announced recently, where _ compare it to perhaps what has been announced recently, where the - announced recently, where the government— announced recently, where the government is— announced recently, where the government is going _ announced recently, where the government is going to- announced recently, where the. government is going to legislate announced recently, where the - government is going to legislate to overturn— government is going to legislate to overturn the — government is going to legislate to overturn the remaining _ government is going to legislate to overturn the remaining convictions| overturn the remaining convictions and those — overturn the remaining convictions and those people _ overturn the remaining convictions and those people can _ overturn the remaining convictions and those people can assign - overturn the remaining convictions

and those people can assign a - overturn the remaining convictions i and those people can assign a letter and those people can assign a letter and receive — and those people can assign a letter and receive £600,000 _ and those people can assign a letter and receive £600,000 within - and those people can assign a letter and receive £600,000 within days, | and those people can assign a letterl and receive £600,000 within days, i have treen— and receive £600,000 within days, i have been building _ and receive £600,000 within days, i have been building my— and receive £600,000 within days, i have been building my claim - and receive £600,000 within days, i have been building my claim having i have been building my claim having to provide _ have been building my claim having to provide this _ have been building my claim having to provide this level— have been building my claim having to provide this level of— have been building my claim having to provide this level of evidence - to provide this level of evidence and detail— to provide this level of evidence and detail for— to provide this level of evidence and detail for three _ to provide this level of evidence and detail for three years- to provide this level of evidence and detail for three years and l to provide this level of evidence and detail for three years and it| and detail for three years and it has taken — and detail for three years and it has taken us _ and detail for three years and it has taken us this _ and detail for three years and it has taken us this long. - and detail for three years and it has taken us this long. since i and detail for three years and it| has taken us this long. since my conviction— has taken us this long. since my conviction was— has taken us this long. since my conviction was quashed - has taken us this long. since my conviction was quashed in - has taken us this long. since my conviction was quashed in 2021.| has taken us this long. since my - conviction was quashed in 2021. what le . al advice conviction was quashed in 2021. what legal advice where _ conviction was quashed in 2021. legal advice where you are able to receive _ legal advice where you are able to receive or— legal advice where you are able to receive or have you had to do that independently? has receive or have you had to do that independently?— receive or have you had to do that independently? has all been done throuuh independently? has all been done through this- _ independently? has all been done through this. and _ independently? has all been done through this. and unacceptable i independently? has all been done l through this. and unacceptable this lenath of through this. and unacceptable this length of time. _ through this. and unacceptable this length of time, and _ through this. and unacceptable this length of time, and alan _ through this. and unacceptable this length of time, and alan bates, - through this. and unacceptable this| length of time, and alan bates, you have made — length of time, and alan bates, you have made yourself high—profile, and rightly— have made yourself high—profile, and rightly so, _ have made yourself high—profile, and rightly so, in taking this forward. the forthcoming legislation does not propose _ the forthcoming legislation does not propose any measures for members of the group _ propose any measures for members of the group litigation order and i'm wondering — the group litigation order and i'm wondering if you think that is a mistake — wondering if you think that is a mistake i _ wondering if you think that is a mistake. ., �* ,, ., ., wondering if you think that is a mistake. ,, ., ., mistake. i don't know what you can do other than _ mistake. i don't know what you can do other than remove _ mistake. i don't know what you can do other than remove the - mistake. i don't know what you can do other than remove the whole i do other than remove the whole scheme away from government itself and try to do it elsewhere. i mean, we keep coming back to this time after time after time. pay people.

there's a lot of distractions, a lot of other things have been brought up, butjust get on and pay people. i mean, we have heard figures this morning and given perfect examples of how long it is going to take. people refuse to give deadlines now because they can't meet them. i mean, that suggestion that i put in, i think earlier about paying people £1000 a day, or being charged £1000, thatis £1000 a day, or being charged £1000, that is aptly compensation, and that should go to the actual claimant involved. that is —— everyone refers to the scheme as a compensation scheme but it's not, it is financial redress. this is money these people are owed, they have been owed it for years. compensation sounds like a benefit at the whim of the government and all the rest of it. let's get it right, and let's really push forward on that aspect of it. and with the post office, all three of you _ and with the post office, all three of you have said that the evidence,

even _ of you have said that the evidence, even they— of you have said that the evidence, even they have acknowledged if this is one _ even they have acknowledged if this is one of— even they have acknowledged if this is one of the greatest miscarriages ofiustice _ is one of the greatest miscarriages ofjustice that suddenly i have ever lived through in my lifetime, and having _ lived through in my lifetime, and having admitted therefore they need to stand _ having admitted therefore they need to stand up and do better, and yet still they— to stand up and do better, and yet still they are putting obstacles in the way— still they are putting obstacles in the way and treating you with caution — the way and treating you with caution and suspicion, ultimately wanting — caution and suspicion, ultimately wanting to — caution and suspicion, ultimately wanting to say the right things to the media but behind closed doors when _ the media but behind closed doors when it— the media but behind closed doors when it comes to doing the paperwork, the experience is different. , ., ., different. yes. take them out of the s stem different. yes. take them out of the system and — different. yes. take them out of the system and send _ different. yes. take them out of the system and send someone - different. yes. take them out of the system and send someone into - different. yes. take them out of the system and send someone into the. system and send someone into the job. get rid of the post office from any of these schemes, that's the best thing you can do.— any of these schemes, that's the best thing you can do. yes, i second that. absolutely. _ best thing you can do. yes, i second that. absolutely. thank— best thing you can do. yes, i second that. absolutely. thank you, - best thing you can do. yes, i second that. absolutely. thank you, chair. l that. absolutely. thank you, chair. you referenced _ that. absolutely. thank you, chair. you referenced earlier _ that. absolutely. thank you, chair. you referenced earlier around - that. absolutely. thank you, chair. you referenced earlier around the l you referenced earlier around the particulars of your experience, tony, and i wondered if you could describe for the committee of the impact of the horizon system has had on you and your family, impact of the horizon system has had on you and yourfamily, and the process that you have had to go through to claim compensation. yes.

we started our— through to claim compensation. yes. we started our business in 2001. shortfatts— we started our business in 2001. shortfalls from day one. i was suspended but allowed to have myjob back if— suspended but allowed to have myjob back if we _ suspended but allowed to have myjob back if we got 3000 has to pay into the system — back if we got 3000 has to pay into the system from our bank. then i had the system from our bank. then i had the threat _ the system from our bank. then i had the threat of — the system from our bank. then i had the threat of if i had any more shortfalls— the threat of if i had any more shortfalls it was my fault and my business — shortfalls it was my fault and my business would be closed. so then i kept them _ business would be closed. so then i kept them hidden from the post office _ kept them hidden from the post office and from everybody else until we ran _ office and from everybody else until we ran out — office and from everybody else until we ran out of money. we used our credit— we ran out of money. we used our credit cards — we ran out of money. we used our credit cards. forced to sell the business. _ credit cards. forced to sell the business, declared bankrupt. i had a nervous _ business, declared bankrupt. i had a nervous breakdown. we left the village, — nervous breakdown. we left the village, ran away without saying goodbye — village, ran away without saying goodbye to our friends. we put our daughter— goodbye to our friends. we put our daughter in— goodbye to our friends. we put our daughter in school in another country— daughter in school in another country and we have never been back to the _ country and we have never been back to the uk_ country and we have never been back to the uk for— country and we have never been back to the uk for 15 years, apart from these _ to the uk for 15 years, apart from these last— to the uk for 15 years, apart from these last few weeks. i to the uk for 15 years, apart from these last few weeks.— these last few weeks. i am really sor to these last few weeks. i am really sorry to hear _ these last few weeks. i am really sorry to hear about _ these last few weeks. i am really sorry to hear about your - these last few weeks. i am really . sorry to hear about your experience. in terms of the process for claiming

compensation for what is an absolutely hideous experience that i don't think any of us would wish even on our worst enemies, how has the information requested from you, the information requested from you, the design of the form and the waiting stage in different stages within the process, had an impact? the initial application is difficult to do— the initial application is difficult to do on— the initial application is difficult to do on your own. the questions, they— to do on your own. the questions, they are _ to do on your own. the questions, they are asking for quite a lot of information and obviously it is 20 years— information and obviously it is 20 years ago— information and obviously it is 20 years ago so it is hard to get. the problem — years ago so it is hard to get. the problem i— years ago so it is hard to get. the problem i found with a lot of mine, an example — problem i found with a lot of mine, an example is the deterioration of my health — an example is the deterioration of my health which was documented in my medical— my health which was documented in my medical records, fortunately, so i sent that — medical records, fortunately, so i sent that to them. again, they totally— sent that to them. again, they totally ignored it. they said they had nothing to do with my health because — had nothing to do with my health because i— had nothing to do with my health because i have family issues. i know, _ because i have family issues. i know. i— because i have family issues. i know, i know. yes. i really don't know _

know, i know. yes. i really don't know and — know, i know. yes. i really don't know. and this is the thing, i think for most _ know. and this is the thing, i think for most of— know. and this is the thing, i think for most of us we are not believed. it is as— for most of us we are not believed. it is as though we are making this up. it is as though we are making this up this _ it is as though we are making this up. this happened to us, they did this _ up. this happened to us, they did this they— up. this happened to us, they did this. they admitted on paper, but when _ this. they admitted on paper, but when it— this. they admitted on paper, but when it comes to it, they are not bothered — when it comes to it, they are not bothered. �* . when it comes to it, they are not bothered. �* , ., ., bothered. and in terms of that culture of— bothered. and in terms of that culture of disbelief _ bothered. and in terms of that culture of disbelief from - bothered. and in terms of that culture of disbelief from the i bothered. and in terms of that i culture of disbelief from the post office and their attempts to frustrate your ability to get justice for your experiences, the independent reviewer of the group litigation order scheme told the horizon advisory board last november that the historic shortfall scheme was "tainted by the involvement of the post office". do you agree with this assessment? i the post office". do you agree with this assessment?— this assessment? i do. there is a difficulty that _ this assessment? i do. there is a difficulty that l _ this assessment? i do. there is a difficulty that i have _ this assessment? i do. there is a difficulty that i have heard - this assessment? i do. there is a difficulty that i have heard from l this assessment? i do. there is a i difficulty that i have heard from my le-al difficulty that i have heard from my legal team, which is that if we stop this, they— legal team, which is that if we stop this, they time is then going to ekpand, — this, they time is then going to expand, it'll get longer and longer. do we _ expand, it'll get longer and longer. do we stop— expand, it'll get longer and longer. do we stop it or do we continue with the process? — do we stop it or do we continue with the process? there is then going to ekpand, _ the process? there is then going to ekpand, it'll— the process? there is then going to expand, it'll get longer and longer. do we _ expand, it'll get longer and longer. do we stop—

expand, it'll get longer and longer. do we stop it or do we continue with the process? — do we stop it or do we continue with the process? there's definitely some culture _ the process? there's definitely some culture that — the process? there's definitely some culture that is making them do this to us _ to us. thank you. we are so sorry to hear about the losses and the damage that all of this has caused you. tony, you said you went bankrupt shortly after you sold your shop. you went bankrupt shortly after you sold your shop-— you went bankrupt shortly after you sold your shop. yes. the post office. sold your shop. yes. the post office- but — sold your shop. yes. the post office. but they _ sold your shop. yes. the post office. but they denied - sold your shop. yes. the post office. but they denied causing your bankruptcy. i heard what you said and i'm trying to get my head around this. they are saying that you chose to pay off a mortgage and therefore this was your choice and your fault? yes. �* , ., ., ., this was your choice and your fault? yes. �* y., ., ., ., yes. but you did not have a mortgage? _ yes. but you did not have a mortgage? no. _ yes. but you did not have a mortgage? no. we - yes. but you did not have a mortgage? no. we had - yes. but you did not have a mortgage? no. we had a l yes. but you did not have a - mortgage? no. we had a business yes. but you did not have a _ mortgage? no. we had a business loan of £60,000, _ mortgage? no. we had a business loan of £60,000, which — mortgage? no. we had a business loan of £60,000, which was _ mortgage? no. we had a business loan of £60,000, which was paid _ mortgage? no. we had a business loan of £60,000, which was paid off - of £60,000, which was paid off normally— of £60,000, which was paid off normally by our solicitors, but they said i_ normally by our solicitors, but they said i used — normally by our solicitors, but they said i used it to pay a personal mortgage _ said i used it to pay a personal mortgage of £100,000.- said i used it to pay a personal mortgage of £100,000. facts are facts. we mortgage of £100,000. facts are

facts- we hear— mortgage of £100,000. facts are facts. we hear alternative - mortgage of £100,000. facts are facts. we hear alternative that. mortgage of £100,000. facts are facts. we hear alternative that is| facts. we hear alternative that is in this day and age, but how is it that the post office will not accept your timeline and your presentation of information about your own finances? why is that not accept it? have you been given an explanation? no, hopefully we will get more detail— no, hopefully we will get more detail on— no, hopefully we will get more detail on this later, but we all have — detail on this later, but we all have no— detail on this later, but we all have no understanding of why. and so what is then — have no understanding of why. and so what is then the _ have no understanding of why. and so what is then the direct _ have no understanding of why. and so what is then the direct impact - have no understanding of why. and so what is then the direct impact on - what is then the direct impact on your compensation process and the resolution of that, how does that impact your question mark in effect, if they won't accept being the causation, that could be the end of my claim. really?— my claim. really? they are not admittin: my claim. really? they are not admitting causation, _ my claim. really? they are not admitting causation, and - my claim. really? they are not admitting causation, and they i my claim. really? they are not - admitting causation, and they won't admit _ admitting causation, and they won't admit my— admitting causation, and they won't admit my health issues. they are saving _ admit my health issues. they are saving it — admit my health issues. they are saving it is — admit my health issues. they are saying it is my problem, my fault. this is— saying it is my problem, my fault. this is great— saying it is my problem, my fault. this is great personal cost to you in terms of personal reputation and

relationships, and yet there is also denial that it has caused you in any way psychological problems as well. has that been denied to you as well? yes, my record is perfect from the day i _ yes, my record is perfect from the day i was — yes, my record is perfect from the day i was suspended, but my health -ot day i was suspended, but my health got worse _ day i was suspended, but my health got worse and worse through to a nervous _ got worse and worse through to a nervous breakdown, and the doctors with the _ nervous breakdown, and the doctors with the stress of the post office, the stress — with the stress of the post office, the stress of the bankruptcy, it because — the stress of the bankruptcy, it because my illness and the post office _ because my illness and the post office chose to ignore all of that and they— office chose to ignore all of that and they said that i had family problems and... i can't remember. problems and... ican't remember. they— problems and... i can't remember. they referred to 12 years later to say that — they referred to 12 years later to say that i— they referred to 12 years later to say that i had bipolar tendencies. well, _ say that i had bipolar tendencies. well, people do have pre—existing conditions and they have families. i had no pre—existing conditions. conditions and they have families. i i had no pre-existing conditions. none at all.

had no pre-existing conditions. none at all- they — had no pre-existing conditions. none at all. they referred _ had no pre-existing conditions. none at all. they referred to _ had no pre-existing conditions. none at all. they referred to a _ had no pre-existing conditions. none at all. they referred to a letter - had no pre-existing conditions. none at all. they referred to a letter 12 - at all. they referred to a letter 12 ears at all. they referred to a letter 12 years later- _ we will be back with that very shortly. kensington palace says that the prince of wales has pulled out of a macro attending the memorial service for the late king constantine of greece at windsor castle due to a personal matter. let's go to the royal correspondent for more. it was quite a surprise withdrawal for the service for his godfather which takes place at windsor castle today. we don't know exactly what has prompted this. it is said to be a personal matter which means that prince william cannot be in attendance. he was due to give a reading, so it's something that was preplanned, and he was expected to be there. but i would say that the messages we are hearing from royal sources is not to panic or to over worry about this. we have had a

number of very high profile royal health stories recently, so perhaps people are a little bit hyper aware and hypersensitive to concerns about royal health. but this is not something about which we should necessarily panic, as it were. also, the palace said princess catherine is continuing to do well. she had abdominal surgery injanuary and has been recuperating at home and so far her progress continues to be good. that is another soothing message we are getting. bind that is another soothing message we are cuettin. �* that is another soothing message we are cuettin. . ., that is another soothing message we are cuettin. . . ., , are getting. and we are also seeing queen camilla. _ are getting. and we are also seeing queen camilla, prince _ are getting. and we are also seeing queen camilla, prince andreu, - are getting. and we are also seeing i queen camilla, prince andreu, sarah ferguson, they have all been filmed going into this ceremony. yes. that's right- — going into this ceremony. yes. that's right. the _ going into this ceremony. yes. that's right. the royal - going into this ceremony. yes. that's right. the royal family i going into this ceremony. is; that's right. the royal family will that's right. the royalfamily will be headed today by queen camilla because king charles is also absent because king charles is also absent because of his cancer treatment, which is another reason why people are perhaps setting their hearts a flutter with the prospect of more

health anxiety. but we are told in terms of prince william �*s absence not to over worry about that. there has been a time of great concern about the health of the royal family and today will be a gathering for one of their relations, who died last year. we would have expected both king charles and prince william to be present. both king charles and prince william to be present-— both king charles and prince william to be present. thank you very much. if we aet to be present. thank you very much. if we get any — to be present. thank you very much. if we get any further _ to be present. thank you very much. if we get any further details - to be present. thank you very much. if we get any further details on - to be present. thank you very much. if we get any further details on why i if we get any further details on why prince william has pulled out of that event, we will bring it to you. let's return to westminster where the three sub—postmasters are giving evidence to the business and trade committee. the evidence to the business and trade committee-— committee. the discrepancy was £16,500, committee. the discrepancy was £16,500. which _ committee. the discrepancy was £16,500, which the _ committee. the discrepancy was £16,500, which the post - committee. the discrepancy was £16,500, which the post office | £16,500, which the post office demanded i pay back immediately or i would be charged with theft. so by selling my car and borrowing money from my parents on the business, i paid that money back to avoid the theft charge and they then charge me with false accounting.