he is being changed by his party. an unapologetic former prime minister. tommy robinson was described as a hero in front of you. - why didn't you speak up? i do hereby declare that george galloway is duly... and a return for one of the most controversial men in british politics. all politicians are grappling with divisions. there are fears some exploiting them, too. but one of them this week has a real—world, not a rhetorical task. in his last budget before the election, the chancellor has to make the sums add up. with the economy in recession, public services under strain, we have one big question this morning — doesjeremy hunt have anything in his red box to bring you some cheer? who better to ask than jeremy hunt himself? the chancellor's here live. last year he promised parents much

more free childcare. bridget phillipson, for labour, reckons that plan doesn't add up. and another parent, another child — mariano janin�*s daughter, mia, took her own life after being bullied online and at school. we'll hear how he wants to prevent other parents�* heartbreak. morning, morning — welcome to you, and welcome to my team at the desk for the next hour. sir rocco forte, legendary hotelier and conservative donor, at least until recently. vicky spratt, writer and housing campaigner, and andy haldane — now one of the wise heads on the government's economic advisory council, who was the chief economist at the bank of england. it isa it is a big week for the government,

a big few days forjeremy hunt, the chancellor, who is with us. jeremy hunt, you are apparently managing to squeeze in marathon training whilst having one of the biggestjobs in politics, how do you do that? bridget, are you warming up alongside? i bridget, are you warming up alongside?— bridget, are you warming up alonaside? ' , ., alongside? i did 17 miles on friday but nothing _ alongside? i did 17 miles on friday but nothing will _ alongside? i did 17 miles on friday but nothing will be _ alongside? i did 17 miles on friday but nothing will be for _ alongside? i did 17 miles on friday but nothing will be for the - alongside? i did 17 miles on friday| but nothing will be for the budget. bridget, are you fitting in exercise?— bridget, are you fitting in exercise? �* . ~ ., , exercise? i'm a keen runner, i was -la in: exercise? i'm a keen runner, i was playing hockey _ exercise? i'm a keen runner, i was playing hockey yesterday - exercise? i'm a keen runner, i was playing hockey yesterday so - exercise? i'm a keen runner, i was playing hockey yesterday so i - exercise? i'm a keen runner, i was playing hockey yesterday so i like l playing hockey yesterday so i like to keep _ playing hockey yesterday so i like to keep in — playing hockey yesterday so i like to keep in sport too. xlf'ery to keep in sport too. very impressive, _ to keep in sport too. very impressive, we'll- to keep in sport too. very impressive, we'll see - to keep in sport too. very| impressive, we'll see what to keep in sport too. - impressive, we'll see what political support we have in the studio this morning. there is tonnes in this morning's news, of course, looking ahead to the budget. the sunday times, the observer, the sunday express — all splash on tax cuts, a good thing, or a bad. in the sunday telegraph, jeremy hunt's declaring war on waste. a pretty familiar promise from ministers, but we'll hear what he has up his sleeve in a few minutes' time. and there's a royal double act on two of the tabloids. the sunday mirror has another story

about prince andrew's links with jeffrey epstein. the sun on sunday says the queen's off on a break. jeremy hunt, our main event this morning. andy haldane, you have observed, watched, so many of these events. what do you want to hear from jeremy hunt today?- events. what do you want to hear from jeremy hunt today? well, what i would love to — from jeremy hunt today? well, what i would love to hear _ from jeremy hunt today? well, what i would love to hear is the _ from jeremy hunt today? well, what i would love to hear is the fiscal- would love to hear is the fiscal rules might be tweaked. they are stunting growth for me, right now. i think that probably won't happen, ewan won't hear that from jeremy today so the most pressing thing actually is the funding crisis facing local crises right now —— the funding crisis facing local councils right now. funding crisis facing local councils riaht now. . v funding crisis facing local councils riaht now. . �*, , right now. that's interesting because when _ right now. that's interesting because when you _ right now. that's interesting because when you say - right now. that's interesting because when you say the l right now. that's interesting . because when you say the fiscal rules, you mean basically the limits the government puts on itself in order to be able to show that they are trying to pay down the country's debt over the long term. you think they are harming it right now? i think the debt rule in particular is

overly constraining our capacity to invest as a nation and therefore grow tomorrow, yeah.— invest as a nation and therefore grow tomorrow, yeah. rocco, what would ou grow tomorrow, yeah. rocco, what would you like _ grow tomorrow, yeah. rocco, what would you like the _ grow tomorrow, yeah. rocco, what would you like the chancellor- grow tomorrow, yeah. rocco, what would you like the chancellor to . grow tomorrow, yeah. rocco, what. would you like the chancellor to do? i agree completely with the fiscal, the five _ i agree completely with the fiscal, the five year rule is nonsense. we should _ the five year rule is nonsense. we should he — the five year rule is nonsense. we should be looking at a much longer period _ should be looking at a much longer period in— should be looking at a much longer period in the economy. this was brought— period in the economy. this was brought in— period in the economy. this was brought in with the maastricht treaty — brought in with the maastricht treaty and something that every country — treaty and something that every country in — treaty and something that every country in the european union has continued — country in the european union has continued to break stop we are no longer— continued to break stop we are no longer in — continued to break stop we are no longer in the european union, we no longer— longer in the european union, we no longer need — longer in the european union, we no longer need to follow it. the budget is about— longer need to follow it. the budget is about putting things out of a hat which _ is about putting things out of a hat which i _ is about putting things out of a hat which i don't like, it should be about— which i don't like, it should be about creating a long—term view of how to _ about creating a long—term view of how to grow the economy. one quick window— how to grow the economy. one quick window would be the tourist tax, abolishing the tourist tax, which is costing _ abolishing the tourist tax, which is costing the — abolishing the tourist tax, which is costing the economy about £11 billion— costing the economy about £11 billion a — costing the economy about £11 billion a year and also the treasury £2.5 billion a year and also the treasury £25 million — billion a year and also the treasury £2.5 million a year. the short—sightedness of the treasury and the _ short—sightedness of the treasury and the obr is stopping this happening. we and the obr is stopping this happening-— and the obr is stopping this happening. and the obr is stopping this haueninu. ~ , ., happening. we will see what the chancellor says _ happening. we will see what the chancellor says about _ happening. we will see what the chancellor says about that - happening. we will see what the chancellor says about that for i happening. we will see what the l chancellor says about that for you and other businesses campaigning on

that so tourists could get duty—free to encourage them to shop in the uk. vicky, what would you like to hear jeremy hunt say today?— vicky, what would you like to hear jeremy hunt say today? we've heard a lot about what — jeremy hunt say today? we've heard a lot about what he _ jeremy hunt say today? we've heard a lot about what he may _ jeremy hunt say today? we've heard a lot about what he may or _ jeremy hunt say today? we've heard a lot about what he may or may - jeremy hunt say today? we've heard a lot about what he may or may not - jeremy hunt say today? we've heard a lot about what he may or may not say| lot about what he may or may not say is people _ lot about what he may or may not say is people in _ lot about what he may or may not say is people in westminster— lot about what he may or may not say is people in westminster keep- is people in westminster keep briefing — is people in westminster keep briefing against— is people in westminster keep briefing against each - is people in westminster keep briefing against each other - is people in westminster keep briefing against each other ori briefing against each other or perhaps— briefing against each other or perhaps they _ briefing against each other or perhaps they are _ briefing against each other or perhaps they are testing - briefing against each other or- perhaps they are testing policies, i don't _ perhaps they are testing policies, i don't know. — perhaps they are testing policies, i don't know. but— perhaps they are testing policies, i don't know, but i— perhaps they are testing policies, i don't know, but i have _ perhaps they are testing policies, i don't know, but i have to- perhaps they are testing policies, i don't know, but i have to agree - perhaps they are testing policies, i i don't know, but i have to agree with rocco _ don't know, but i have to agree with rocco and _ don't know, but i have to agree with rocco and andy, _ don't know, but i have to agree with rocco and andy, the _ don't know, but i have to agree with rocco and andy, the debt _ don't know, but i have to agree with rocco and andy, the debt rule - don't know, but i have to agree with rocco and andy, the debt rule is - rocco and andy, the debt rule is harming — rocco and andy, the debt rule is harming us — rocco and andy, the debt rule is harming us and _ rocco and andy, the debt rule is harming us and i'd _ rocco and andy, the debt rule is harming us and i'd like - rocco and andy, the debt rule is harming us and i'd like to- rocco and andy, the debt rule is harming us and i'd like to hear. harming us and i'd like to hear about— harming us and i'd like to hear about some _ harming us and i'd like to hear about some spending, - harming us and i'd like to hear- about some spending, particularly in infrastructure — about some spending, particularly in infrastructure and _ about some spending, particularly in infrastructure and housing. - about some spending, particularly in infrastructure and housing. as- about some spending, particularly in infrastructure and housing. as part l infrastructure and housing. as part of my— infrastructure and housing. as part of my work— infrastructure and housing. as part of my work i— infrastructure and housing. as part of my work i travel— infrastructure and housing. as part of my work i travel around - infrastructure and housing. as part of my work i travel around the - of my work i travel around the country — of my work i travel around the country. people _ of my work i travel around the country. people cannot - of my work i travel around the country. people cannot afford| of my work i travel around the . country. people cannot afford to of my work i travel around the - country. people cannot afford to pay their rent~ _ country. people cannot afford to pay their rent. there _ country. people cannot afford to pay their rent. there are _ country. people cannot afford to pay their rent. there are homeless - their rent. there are homeless families, — their rent. there are homeless families, the _ their rent. there are homeless families, the number- their rent. there are homeless families, the number of- their rent. there are homeless families, the number of whichi their rent. there are homeless i families, the number of which are rising _ families, the number of which are rising if_ families, the number of which are rising if we— families, the number of which are rising. if we had _ families, the number of which are rising. if we had enough- families, the number of which are rising. if we had enough social- rising. if we had enough social housing — rising. if we had enough social housing we _ rising. if we had enough social housing we wouldn't _ rising. if we had enough social housing we wouldn't have - rising. if we had enough social housing we wouldn't have thati housing we wouldn't have that problem — housing we wouldn't have that problem and _ housing we wouldn't have that problem and we _ housing we wouldn't have that problem and we wouldn't - housing we wouldn't have that problem and we wouldn't be l housing we wouldn't have that - problem and we wouldn't be spending so much _ problem and we wouldn't be spending so much on _ problem and we wouldn't be spending so much on housing _ problem and we wouldn't be spending so much on housing them _ problem and we wouldn't be spending so much on housing them and - problem and we wouldn't be spending so much on housing them and that. so much on housing them and that wouldn't _ so much on housing them and that wouldn't be — so much on housing them and that wouldn't be bankrupting _ so much on housing them and that wouldn't be bankrupting local- wouldn't be bankrupting local councils _ wouldn't be bankrupting local councils. ., wouldn't be bankrupting local councils. . ., , ., councils. 0k, all three of you, thank you. — councils. 0k, all three of you, thank you. you _ councils. 0k, all three of you, thank you, you are _ councils. 0k, all three of you, thank you, you are not - councils. 0k, all three of you, thank you, you are not from i councils. 0k, all three of you, i thank you, you are not from the councils. 0k, all three of you, - thank you, you are not from the same political spectrum but you all agree the rules the government is living by, it's time to have a look at them. what the chancellor has been briefing, hinting yes and no, it's about tax cuts. since the turn of

the year that has been something of a political pantomime over whether or not the government is going to find the cash to cut taxes. jeremy hunt compared himself to such as tax—cutting chancellor nigel lawson at the beginning of the year, in january, but by february he was sounding a little bit less sure. it doesn't look to me like we will have the same scope for cutting taxes in the same scope for cutting taxes in the spring budget that we had in the autumn statement and so i need to set people possum expectations about the scale of what i'm doing. in set people possum expectations about the scale of what i'm doing.— the scale of what i'm doing. in this month there _ the scale of what i'm doing. in this month there were _ the scale of what i'm doing. in this month there were suggestions - the scale of what i'm doing. in this month there were suggestions number ten andy levin might be stuck in a tussle over tax. —— number ten and number 11 tussle over tax. —— number ten and number” might be tussle over tax. —— number ten and number 11 might be stuck in a tussle over tax. you said you wanted to under promise and over deliver. you said a while ago the economy was at a turning point but now it seems we are in recession and you dangled those chunky tax cuts, but now you are telling us there is no easy

path. do you feel a bit silly that you went too far in nudging people that tax cuts might be on the way? well, first of all i think you'll ask me about lots of specific taxes, the tourist tax that rocco is campaigning very effectively on, non—dons or national insurance and i can't talk about specific taxes ahead of the budget. but in terms of under promising and over delivering, when rishi sunak and i took over, inflation was ii%, it's gone down to 4%, its inflation was ii%, it's gone down to ii%, its fallen much faster than many people predicted. the bank of england said we would have the longest recession in 100 years at that time and in fact its been much more healthy although we've just tipped into a technical recession, so i think the economy has been much, much more resilient than people predicted and... b, much, much more resilient than people predicted and... b. lat much, much more resilient than people predicted and. . .- people predicted and... a lot of --eole people predicted and... a lot of people watching _ people predicted and. .. a lot of people watching think— people predicted and... a lot of people watching think they've i people predicted and... a lot of l people watching think they've had people predicted and... a lot of - people watching think they've had a very hard time but i'm asking about the specific message over the last

few months that you were eager to do tax cuts and now actually you have less money to spend than you hoped. was it a mistake to race people's expectations? was it a mistake to race people's expectations?_ was it a mistake to race people's exectations? ., , , ., �* expectations? no, because what we've been sa in: expectations? no, because what we've been saying very _ expectations? no, because what we've been saying very clearly _ expectations? no, because what we've been saying very clearly is _ expectations? no, because what we've been saying very clearly is when - expectations? no, because what we've been saying very clearly is when we - been saying very clearly is when we look around the world the economies that are growing fastest, whether it's north america or asia, tend to be the ones with lower taxes and we want that to be the case for the uk as well, but we've always said i'm we've been very consistent, we would only cut taxes in a way that was responsible and prudent and if i may say the most un—conservative thing i could do would be to cut taxes by increasing borrowing, because that isjust increasing borrowing, because that is just cutting taxes and saying that future generations have to pick up that future generations have to pick up the tax up. i won't do that. but i do want, where it is possible to do so responsibly, to move towards a lower tax economy and i hope to show a path in that direction, but this

will be a prudent and responsible budget for long—term growth, tackling inflation, more investment, morejobs, and that tackling inflation, more investment, more jobs, and that path to lower taxation as and when we can afford it. you have said also the forecast from the obr, the economic watchdog that marks your homework, you have said the numbers have gone against us. , . , , ., ~ ., us. the picture is bleaker than it was at the _ us. the picture is bleaker than it was at the beginning _ us. the picture is bleaker than it was at the beginning of- us. the picture is bleaker than it was at the beginning of the - us. the picture is bleaker than it| was at the beginning of the year. why are you looking to cut tax now at all? ~ , why are you looking to cut tax now atall? , ., , why are you looking to cut tax now atall? , ., ., at all? well, these forecasts change the whole time. _ at all? well, these forecasts change the whole time. what _ at all? well, these forecasts change the whole time. what happened - at all? well, these forecasts change the whole time. what happened in l at all? well, these forecasts change i the whole time. what happened in the autumn was that the forecast went in our favour unexpectedly quite close to the end and so i was able to introduce the biggest business tax cut that people like the cbi said was a game changer that would fire up was a game changer that would fire up the british economy was white but i'm asking about now. some people say now is not the time. the i'm asking about now. some people say now is not the time.— i'm asking about now. some people say now is not the time. the cbi has said now is — say now is not the time. the cbi has said now is not _ say now is not the time. the cbi has

said now is not the _ say now is not the time. the cbi has said now is not the time _ say now is not the time. the cbi has said now is not the time for - said now is not the time for short—term tax cuts. some of your colleagues think you shouldn't be doing it, you should be spending spare cash on something hugely important like defence, for example. is it not right to be looking to spend money on other places rather than scraping around for what might be quite small tax cuts? if rare than scraping around for what might be quite small tax cuts?— be quite small tax cuts? if we are auoin to be quite small tax cuts? if we are going to spend — be quite small tax cuts? if we are going to spend more _ be quite small tax cuts? if we are going to spend more money - be quite small tax cuts? if we are going to spend more money on i be quite small tax cuts? if we are - going to spend more money on defence as i believe we will need to do in the future, what we need to have is a healthily growing economy. decision i take will be as prudent, responsible long—term decision. we were having a discussion about the fiscal rules and although i don't agree that we should change the fiscal rules because i think people would interpret that as britain losing control of its finances, i do very strongly agree with andy that we need a long—term approach. that is what you will see from what i announced in the budget and what we do on tax will be linked to that and i make no secret as a conservative, i make no secret as a conservative, i want to put money back into people's pockets but i will only do so in a way that is sensible, sustainable and for the long term.

on those rules, across the political spectrum on our panel, our panellists were saying this is a constraining you as the chancellor, they are constraining the economy. do you feel constrained pressure might do you feel you are in something of a straitjacket notjust because of the rules but because of the obr, the economic watchdog, breathing down your neck? for people at home, breathing down your neck? for people at home. what — breathing down your neck? for people at home, what are _ breathing down your neck? for people at home, what are these _ breathing down your neck? for people at home, what are these rules? - at home, what are these rules? governments decide to have them. you could change them. we _ governments decide to have them. you could change them. we could _ governments decide to have them. you could change them. we could change i could change them. we could change them, could change them. we could change them. some — could change them. we could change them, some countries _ could change them. we could change them, some countries don't - could change them. we could change them, some countries don't have - them, some countries don't have them. the reason we have them is to give confidence to the british people and the world that we are a country that pays back on our deck and if we didn't have them people would worry that britain was going to go on an endless borrowing binge and we are not that sort of country. in fact, i've taken very difficult decisions as chancellor to show the world that we are good for the money we borrow and i wouldn't do anything that undermines that.— that undermines that. people watchin:

that undermines that. people watching this _ that undermines that. people watching this morning - that undermines that. people watching this morning will. that undermines that. people - watching this morning will remember what happened in the autumn under your predecessor kwasi kwarteng, liz truss ditched the obr and promised unfunded tax cuts. let's talk about some of the specifics. you are not going to confirm any specific tax cuts, not this morning, let's not do that dance. however, we should tell our viewers... brute that dance. however, we should tell our viewers- - -_ our viewers... we are going to do a different dance, _ our viewers... we are going to do a different dance, art _ our viewers... we are going to do a different dance, art way? _ our viewers... we are going to do a different dance, art way? i - our viewers... we are going to do a different dance, art way? i know. our viewers... we are going to do a l different dance, art way? i know you are a keen ballroom _ different dance, art way? i know you are a keen ballroom dancer. - different dance, art way? i know you are a keen ballroom dancer. there i different dance, art way? i know you j are a keen ballroom dancer. there is are a keen ballroom dancer. there is a widespread expectation you are likely to cut national insurance, there is a widespread expectation you are going to nick labour's policy of tightening up the rules for so—called non—doms, policy of tightening up the rules forso—called non—doms, people policy of tightening up the rules for so—called non—doms, people who earn huge fortunes over —— abroad. you said these are foreigners who could leave easily in ireland, france, portugal or spain, they all have these schemes, i'd rather they stay here and spend their money

here. do you want to take that back? as i said, i'm not going to talk about individual taxes. {jut as i said, i'm not going to talk about individual taxes.- about individual taxes. out of - rinci - le about individual taxes. out of principle do — about individual taxes. out of principle do you _ about individual taxes. out of principle do you agree - about individual taxes. out of principle do you agree with i about individual taxes. out of - principle do you agree with jeremy principle do you agree withjeremy hunt from 2022? i principle do you agree with jeremy hunt from 2022?— hunt from 2022? i don't disagree with jeremy _ hunt from 2022? i don't disagree with jeremy hunt _ hunt from 2022? i don't disagree with jeremy hunt from _ hunt from 2022? i don't disagree with jeremy hunt from nearly - with jeremy hunt from nearly everything i said withjeremy hunt from nearly everything i said in the with jeremy hunt from nearly everything i said in the past, but sometimes, let me say this, the country sees through gimmicks and we are not going to do gimmicks on wednesday. it's going to be a budget for responsible, long—term growth. when it comes to labour, this is an election year and people will see a contrast. we have a plan for growth that has seen us grow faster than any large european economy. hang on, jeremy hunt, _ any large european economy. hang on, jeremy hunt, we — any large european economy. hang on, jeremy hunt, we are _ any large european economy. hang on, jeremy hunt, we are speaking - any large european economy. hang on, jeremy hunt, we are speaking to - jeremy hunt, we are speaking to labour later in the programme. rachel reeves will be here next week so we are not discussing labour's economic policy. you so we are not discussing labour's economic policy-— economic policy. you mentioned labour's economic _ economic policy. you mentioned labour's economic policy. - economic policy. you mentioned labour's economic policy. the i labour's economic policy. the contrast with labour as we have halved unemployment. their plans will destroy jobs halved unemployment. their plans will destroyjobs because they want to give more additional burdens to

employers. their plans, we have plans to bring taxes down, they want to spend more, so there is that contrast with labour but it's not going to be about gimmicks. your lan going to be about gimmicks. your ian on going to be about gimmicks. your plan on non-doms _ going to be about gimmicks. your plan on non-doms and _ going to be about gimmicks. your plan on non—doms and making it harderfor non—doms to plan on non—doms and making it harder for non—doms to pay tax and to hear perfectly legally under the current rules, you would be carrying out a screaming u—turn. do you deny that that is your plan? iam not i am not talking about individual taxes. i thought that was a dance we were not going to do this morning. i want to find a way to bring down the tax burden as a conservative. that would be the right way to unlock growth in the economy. i will do so in a way that is responsible. i will not do so through borrowing, gimmicks, iwill do not do so through borrowing, gimmicks, i will do the right thing in the longer term interests of the country's economic growth. what country's economic growth. what about doing _ country's economic growth. what about doing what _ country's economic growth. what about doing what sir _ country's economic growth. what

about doing what sir rocco forte suggests, should he look forward to wednesday? i suggests, should he look forward to wednesday?— wednesday? i want to support the tourism industry. _ wednesday? i want to support the tourism industry. i— wednesday? i want to support the tourism industry. iwill— wednesday? i want to support the tourism industry. i will not - wednesday? i want to support the tourism industry. i will not talk - tourism industry. i will not talk about wednesday but in the autumn statement we cut business rates on retail, hospitality and leisure businesses by 75%. i think it has boosted an important sector. in principle, anything i can do to help business, i want to because this will be a budget for long—term growth. will be a budget for long-term urowth. ~ ., will be a budget for long-term jrowth. . ., , .,, will be a budget for long-term urowth. . , ., growth. what people watching are concerned about _ growth. what people watching are concerned about is _ growth. what people watching are concerned about is not _ growth. what people watching are concerned about is notjust - growth. what people watching are concerned about is notjust how. concerned about is notjust how inflation has eaten away at wages. everybody knows when they go to the shop things have gone up and up. it has slowed down. you have made that point. but a strong sense shared by many that public services are creaking, not nearly good enough. maybe, if you have spare cash, that is where money should go. a viewer jonathan hughes said joe and jill

citizen do not want lower taxes, they would rather services of all sorts are provided and improved. what would you say to him? i say to jonathan what most people want is better public services and a lower tax burden. it is the old thing, can we have european public services and american levels of tax. the only way we have a chance of delivering something like that is by spending money we spend on public services more efficiently. i know we will talk about productivity later. if i could give an example. typically nurses will say they spend up to a third of their time filling out forms rather than looking after patients and police officers say they spend eight hours a week on unnecessary paperwork. we have to think not about money we put in but whether we can do things more efficiently. so that we get more out. people working on the front line, who work extremely hard, they

would find theirjobs more rewarding if we rethink the approach to public spending. if we rethink the approach to public sendina. . .. ,, if we rethink the approach to public shendin. ,, .. ,, . ., . .,, spending. successive chancellors have promised _ spending. successive chancellors have promised on _ spending. successive chancellors have promised on productivity i spending. successive chancellors i have promised on productivity which in normal language is spending taxpayers' money properly and it does not seem much, ia years into power, to spend it properly. when you now say the answer is to spend cash better. isl you now say the answer is to spend cash better-— cash better. 14 years in power and violent crime _ cash better. 14 years in power and violent crime has _ cash better. 14 years in power and violent crime has halved. - cash better. 14 years in power and violent crime has halved. our i violent crime has halved. our reading standards in schools were behind france, germany, sweden, they are now ahead. we have more than a0,000 additional doctors in the nhs. ahead of the pandemic between 2010 and 2019, productivity in the public sector increased 1% a year. we need to get back to that. the pandemic stopped it. if we are going to square the circle of better public services and reducing the tax

burden, we need to restart the programme of public service reform we had before the pandemic. so that is one thing — we had before the pandemic. so that is one thing that _ we had before the pandemic. so that is one thing that has _ we had before the pandemic. so that is one thing that has gone _ we had before the pandemic. so that is one thing that has gone wrong, i is one thing that has gone wrong, the pandemic put the brakes on government looking to make taxpayers' money be spent better? not everywhere. the passport office, a couple of years ago there were huge problems with people getting passports. they have turned that around, ithink passports. they have turned that around, i think it is one of the most efficient passport services anywhere in the world. when you make those changes, it is more rewarding for those delivering services and better for the public and for those delivering services and betterfor the public and cheaper for the taxpayer. that is what we have to restart and that is why improving the way we spend money, efficiency of money, is key if we want to reduce the tax burden. let’s want to reduce the tax burden. let's talk about the _ want to reduce the tax burden. let's talk about the efficiency _ want to reduce the tax burden. let's talk about the efficiency of a plan you announced last year, two huge fanfare, plans for child care in england. you said parents working would get 30 hours of free childcare

for under fives would get 30 hours of free childcare for underfives by would get 30 hours of free childcare for under fives by september, would get 30 hours of free childcare for underfives by september, 15 hours for under two. labour has spoken to childcare providers. they have claimed it is not ready on the ground and providers are worried about going out of business. a viewer, julia ford, like many others told it will not happen. she was told it will not happen. she was told this week, my daughter is trying to get childcare for her two—year—old and the nursery said it has not had information from the government yet. it is meant to be happening in a few weeks. can you guarantee people watching today, parents and nursery providers, places will be there and no providers will go out of business as a result of the changes? i providers will go out of business as a result of the changes?— a result of the changes? i believe we are on — a result of the changes? i believe we are on track. _ a result of the changes? i believe we are on track. it _ a result of the changes? i believe we are on track. it is _ a result of the changes? i believe we are on track. it is the - a result of the changes? i believe we are on track. it is the biggestl we are on track. it is the biggest extension of childcare in a generation. what we said was that we would expand the hours of free

childcare to every parent when the children are nine months or older. a huge change, particularly for women, it means many women can go back to jobs without interrupting their career. but it is a big change. it may mean we need to employ a0,000 more people in the sector. that is why we are bringing it in in stages. the first step is two—year—olds in april. the next is september and finally be brought in the following september. i finally be brought in the following se tember. ., finally be brought in the following setember. . ., ., , ., september. i am not hearing you aaivin a september. i am not hearing you giving a guarantee _ september. i am not hearing you giving a guarantee and _ september. i am not hearing you giving a guarantee and we i september. i am not hearing you giving a guarantee and we were i september. i am not hearing you i giving a guarantee and we were told at the time it was a big change. you will at the time it was a big change. gm, will understand why i want to give an absolute guarantee but am i confident we are delivering and it is on track for this april? yes. confident we are delivering and it is on track for this april?- is on track for this april? yes, i am. is childcare _ is on track for this april? yes, i am. is childcare going - is on track for this april? yes, i am. is childcare going to i is on track for this april? yes, i am. is childcare going to be i is on track for this april? yes, i am. is childcare going to be forj am. is childcare going to be for ever part of the welfare state? i do not believe — ever part of the welfare state? i do not believe in _ ever part of the welfare state? i do not believe in for _ ever part of the welfare state? i if not believe in for ever expanding the welfare state because it is not compatible with bringing the tax burden down and a society that makes work pay. this is different. let me

explain. if we are going to have a model for growth in the economy that is not based on unlimited migration but is based on increasing notjust gdp but gdp per head. but is based on increasing not 'ust gdp but gdp per head.i gdp but gdp per head. people in betterjobs. _ gdp but gdp per head. people in betterjobs, earning _ gdp but gdp per head. people in betterjobs, earning more, i gdp but gdp per head. people in | betterjobs, earning more, rather than higher numbers?— betterjobs, earning more, rather than higher numbers? exactly. if we are to change _ than higher numbers? exactly. if we are to change the _ than higher numbers? exactly. if we are to change the model— than higher numbers? exactly. if we are to change the model we - than higher numbers? exactly. if we are to change the model we need i than higher numbers? exactly. if we are to change the model we need to j are to change the model we need to break down barriers for around 10 million adults of working age who are not in work. childcare is one of the biggest reasons why parents say they are prevented from going back to work. we have talented young mums and dads who find they are prevented from going to work because of the cost of childcare. this measure means those parents can continue to progress in their careers which is good for the economy and therefore the right thing to do. br; good for the economy and therefore the right thing to do.— the right thing to do. by 2028, it is projected _ the right thing to do. by 2028, it is projected to — the right thing to do. by 2028, it is projected to cost _ the right thing to do. by 2028, it is projected to cost more - the right thing to do. by 2028, it is projected to cost more than i the right thing to do. by 2028, it| is projected to cost more than £8 billion. some in your party are

concerned about the size of the state and the state has been growing and growing. is it a good idea, compatible with your ambition to be a lower tax country if you keep growing what the state office? it is because that _ growing what the state office? it is because that is _ growing what the state office? it 3 because that is the gross cost. if you look at the economic impact of having more people in work, higher gdp, more taxes paid, you find this is cost effective as a measure. as an example, if we had the same female participation rate, i am sorry, let me put it in better language. the same number of women working as they do in holland, we would have more than 2 million extra people in the workforce. that would mean a bigger gdp, less talent wasted and a more prosperous country. wasted and a more prosperous count . v ., ~ wasted and a more prosperous count . �*, ., ,, ., country. let's talk about the prosperity — country. let's talk about the prosperity of _ country. let's talk about the prosperity of the _ country. let's talk about the prosperity of the country i country. let's talk about the | prosperity of the country and country. let's talk about the i prosperity of the country and i want

to show viewers something important. sometimes it is hard to get your head around. this is the size of the country's debt. 2019, about 80%. already high. now it is almost the size of the whole economy. a lot in your party and a lot of people probably watching, look at that and think it is horrifying. and i know of course the books have been battered by covid and the shock of the conflict in ukraine, liz truss and the financial markets did not help the situation. as a conservative chancellor, how can you be comfortable with that level? i am not. when be comfortable with that level? i am not- when i — be comfortable with that level? i am not. when i became _ be comfortable with that level? i —.n not. when i became chancellor debt was projected to reach 100% of gdp. now it is... ' j~ was projected to reach 100% of gdp. now it is- - -— now it is... 98. under the forecast it will no now it is... 98. under the forecast it will go down _ now it is... 98. under the forecast it will go down to _ now it is... 98. under the forecast it will go down to more _ now it is... 98. under the forecast it will go down to more like i now it is... 98. under the forecast it will go down to more like 9496 i it will go down to more like 9a% full stop you are right to talk

about covid and the cost—of—living crisis. we spent hundreds of billions supporting families. i think that was the right thing. since 2010, we have 800 more people in work every day the conservatives have been in office. we have kept unemployment at historic lows because of those decisions. now the pandemic is behind us we have to start bringing down debt prudently and responsibly and that is what you will see on wednesday. ianthem and responsibly and that is what you will see on wednesday.— and responsibly and that is what you will see on wednesday. when you talk about bringing — will see on wednesday. when you talk about bringing down _ will see on wednesday. when you talk about bringing down the _ will see on wednesday. when you talk about bringing down the debt, - will see on wednesday. when you talk about bringing down the debt, by i will see on wednesday. when you talk about bringing down the debt, by thel about bringing down the debt, by the end of the five year forecast, you try to avoid the technical term, at the end of the period, it is projected to come down by a whisker. do you think perhaps you need to do something more radical to confront the scale of that? it is something more radical to confront the scale of that?— something more radical to confront the scale of that? it is coming down significantly — the scale of that? it is coming down significantly compared _ the scale of that? it is coming down significantly compared to _ the scale of that? it is coming down significantly compared to the i the scale of that? it is coming down significantly compared to the levels |

significantly compared to the levels predicted when i became chancellor. the balancing act i have is that as i know andy haldane will agree, one of the most effective ways to bring down debt is to grow the economy. we have a plan that people like the international monetary fund say will see the british economy growing faster than any large european economy over the next... it will grow faster than france, germany, italy, japan, overthe grow faster than france, germany, italy, japan, over the next five years. we need to stick with that plan. it is not the time to go back to square one. it is how we bring down debt, bring taxes down, create morejobs and down debt, bring taxes down, create more jobs and create the high wage, high skill economy everyone wants. will you be chancellor by the time of the election?— of the election? absolutely and i ho -e to of the election? absolutely and i hope to be _ of the election? absolutely and i hope to be chancellor— of the election? absolutely and i hope to be chancellor after- of the election? absolutely and i hope to be chancellor after the l hope to be chancellor after the election because i think people will look at the fundamental choice. they know we have been through a difficult period but they know they have a government with a clear plan for the economy that is creating

jobs, bringing in investment, and have seen us grow faster than similar european countries. the choice between that and a labour party that has abandoned its economic plan. i party that has abandoned its economic plan.— party that has abandoned its economic plan. i know you will talk... economic plan. i know you will talk- -- we _ economic plan. i know you will talk. .. we will— economic plan. i know you will talk. .. we will talk— economic plan. i know you will talk... we will talk to - economic plan. i know you will talk... we will talk to rachel. talk... we will talk to rachel reeves next week and people watching might feel differently about what you have said. before we leave you, rishi sunak made a surprise speech about extremism on friday night after the election of george galloway in rochdale. this time last week, the former conservative mp lee anderson was booted out of the party for comments that many believed, and we heard in the studio, were islamophobic and anti—muslim. liz truss turned up at an event with him a couple of days ago. if she was happy to appear alongside him, should she face consequences? that is a matter for— should she face consequences? that is a matter for the _ should she face consequences? trust is a matter for the conservative party. the conservative party has

been clear and decisive. what lee anderson said was wrong. it was interpreted by many as fuelling anti—muslim hatred and divisions. he was given a chance to apologise and did not and we took clear action. i think people know where the conservative party stands. thank ou. we conservative party stands. thank you- we will _ conservative party stands. thank you. we will see _ conservative party stands. thank you. we will see what _ conservative party stands. thank you. we will see what happens i conservative party stands. thank| you. we will see what happens on wednesday and good luck in the london marathon. i'm not sure if thatis london marathon. i'm not sure if that is easier or harder than delivering a budget. let me know what you think. you know we read all your messages. you can email me. or on social use the hashtag bbclaurak. or you can follow us also on x, instagram — @bbclaurak too. iam sure i am sure you i am sure you were i am sure you were listening carefully. andy, i know you will have been marking the economics very hard. ~ ., have been marking the economics very hard. ~ . , ., have been marking the economics very

hard. ~ ., , ., have been marking the economics very hard. ~ ., ,, “g , have been marking the economics very hard. . . , hard. what did you think? jeremy was dealt a terrible _ hard. what did you think? jeremy was dealt a terrible economic— hard. what did you think? jeremy was dealt a terrible economic hand - hard. what did you think? jeremy was dealt a terrible economic hand and i dealt a terrible economic hand and overall he has played it well. we had instability and now we have a degree of stability. public—sector improvements in productivity, fantastic. we have heard that a lot. will it move the dial economically? not really. childcare, terrific, we have a problem of people not participating in the workforce. 8 million people not participating. it helps that, it is to do good. is there enough to think this will be there enough to think this will be the thing that gets growth going and pays down debt? the only way of paying it down is to get the economy going. not really, that is not there. people still feel poorer and they feel poorer because they are. the tax take is going up. not down. monetary policy is getting tighter, not looser. all of those are headwinds for growth that make me

think it is another year of saltiness.— think it is another year of saltiness. ., , ., saltiness. you consider yourself a ro er saltiness. you consider yourself a proper conservative, _ saltiness. you consider yourself a proper conservative, rocco. i saltiness. you consider yourself a proper conservative, rocco. do i saltiness. you consider yourself a i proper conservative, rocco. do you thinkjeremy hunt will give you a proper conservative budget? certainly not. it is underwhelming, what _ certainly not. it is underwhelming, what he _ certainly not. it is underwhelming, what he said. nothing is being done to tackle _ what he said. nothing is being done to tackle the real issues in the economy _ to tackle the real issues in the economy. he is the one who has raised _ economy. he is the one who has raised taxes. he now talks about reducing — raised taxes. he now talks about reducing them sometime in the future — reducing them sometime in the future. they talk about growth, labour — future. they talk about growth, labour talks about growth, but everything they do is contrary to creating — everything they do is contrary to creating growth and growth in the economy — creating growth and growth in the economy. you have to grow the economy— economy. you have to grow the economy at a faster pace than the norm _ economy at a faster pace than the norm and — economy at a faster pace than the norm and that is the way, you do not repay— norm and that is the way, you do not repay the _ norm and that is the way, you do not repay the debt, it shrinks as a percentage of gdp. we repaid the

last world war's debt ten years ago. it is last world war's debt ten years ago. it is not _ last world war's debt ten years ago. it is not overnight. rachel reeves was saying the economy is like it was after the second world war. vicki, i'm not sure there's anything about housing. what did you think of what he had to say? it doesn't sound like it, it's essential— it doesn't sound like it, it's essential infrastructure. ifi it doesn't sound like it, it's. essential infrastructure. if you invest — essential infrastructure. if you invest in— essential infrastructure. if you invest in it _ essential infrastructure. if you invest in it you _ essential infrastructure. if you invest in it you free _ essential infrastructure. if you invest in it you free people i essential infrastructure. if you invest in it you free people up| essential infrastructure. if you i invest in it you free people up to do other— invest in it you free people up to do other things _ invest in it you free people up to do other things that _ invest in it you free people up to do other things that you - invest in it you free people up to do other things that you can i invest in it you free people up to| do other things that you can then grow— do other things that you can then grow the — do other things that you can then grow the economy. _ do other things that you can then grow the economy. there - do other things that you can then grow the economy. there was i do other things that you can then grow the economy. there was a i do other things that you can then i grow the economy. there was a study out last _ grow the economy. there was a study out last week — grow the economy. there was a study out last week that _ grow the economy. there was a study out last week that found _ grow the economy. there was a study out last week that found 90,000 i out last week that found 90,000 social— out last week that found 90,000 social homes _ out last week that found 90,000 social homes being _ out last week that found 90,000 social homes being built- out last week that found 90,000 social homes being built could i out last week that found 90,000 i social homes being built could boost the economy— social homes being built could boost the economy by— social homes being built could boost the economy by £50 _ social homes being built could boost the economy by £50 billion, - social homes being built could boost the economy by £50 billion, you i social homes being built could boost the economy by £50 billion, you are| the economy by £50 billion, you are building. _ the economy by £50 billion, you are building, creating _ the economy by £50 billion, you are building, creating jobs, _ the economy by £50 billion, you are building, creating jobs, that - the economy by £50 billion, you are building, creating jobs, that is i building, creating jobs, that is good — building, creating jobs, that is good for— building, creating jobs, that is good for gdp _ building, creating jobs, that is good for gdp. there _ building, creating jobs, that is good for gdp. there is - building, creating jobs, that is good for gdp. there is no i building, creating jobs, that is - good for gdp. there is no suggestion there _ good for gdp. there is no suggestion there will— good for gdp. there is no suggestion there will be — good for gdp. there is no suggestion there will be anything _ good for gdp. there is no suggestion there will be anything on— good for gdp. there is no suggestion there will be anything on that - good for gdp. there is no suggestion there will be anything on that and i there will be anything on that and that's— there will be anything on that and that's also— there will be anything on that and that's also not _ there will be anything on that and that's also not currently— there will be anything on that and that's also not currently a - there will be anything on that and that's also not currently a labourl that's also not currently a labour policy _ that's also not currently a labour policy either~ _ that's also not currently a labour policy either~ so _ that's also not currently a labour policy either-— that's also not currently a labour policy either. so labour isn't doing that either in _ policy either. so labour isn't doing that either in terms _ policy either. so labour isn't doing that either in terms of— policy either. so labour isn't doing that either in terms of your - policy either. so labour isn't doing that either in terms of your hopes. but talk about efficient government spending. _ but talk about efficient government spending. the — but talk about efficient government spending, the housing _ but talk about efficient government spending, the housing benefit- but talk about efficient government spending, the housing benefit billi spending, the housing benefit bill has grown — spending, the housing benefit bill has grown because _ spending, the housing benefit bill

has grown because we _ spending, the housing benefit bill has grown because we don't- spending, the housing benefit bill has grown because we don't have| has grown because we don't have enough _ has grown because we don't have enough social— has grown because we don't have enough social housing. _ has grown because we don't have enough social housing. we - has grown because we don't have enough social housing. we now i has grown because we don't have i enough social housing. we now spend more _ enough social housing. we now spend more on _ enough social housing. we now spend more on housing _ enough social housing. we now spend more on housing benefit— enough social housing. we now spend more on housing benefit than- enough social housing. we now spend more on housing benefit than we i more on housing benefit than we spend _ more on housing benefit than we spend on— more on housing benefit than we spend on most— more on housing benefit than we spend on most government i spend on most government departments. _ spend on most government departments. it— spend on most government departments. it doesn't i spend on most government i departments. it doesn't sound efficient— departments. it doesn't sound efficient to _ departments. it doesn't sound efficient to me. _ departments. it doesn't sound efficient to me. we _ departments. it doesn't sound efficient to me.— departments. it doesn't sound efficient to me. we built 120,000 homes a year _ efficient to me. we built 120,000 homes a year over— efficient to me. we built 120,000 homes a year over the _ efficient to me. we built 120,000 homes a year over the last i efficient to me. we built 120,000 homes a year over the last few i efficient to me. we built 120,000 i homes a year over the last few years and we've _ homes a year over the last few years and we've let in net 1.4 million people — and we've let in net 1.4 million people over the last two years. where — people over the last two years. where are _ people over the last two years. where are they going to be housed? this is_ where are they going to be housed? this is a _ where are they going to be housed? this is a complete contradiction in terms _ this is a complete contradiction in terms and — this is a complete contradiction in terms and the planning rules need to be changed. 3000 pages of regulation if you want_ be changed. 3000 pages of regulation if you want to follow if you want to build. _ if you want to follow if you want to build. a _ if you want to follow if you want to build. a lot — if you want to follow if you want to build, a lot of it contradictory. nothing — build, a lot of it contradictory. nothing is _ build, a lot of it contradictory. nothing is being done to touch that. the other— nothing is being done to touch that. the other issue is the race to net zero _ the other issue is the race to net zero that's _ the other issue is the race to net zero. that's putting a huge load on the economy and actually making the lives of— the economy and actually making the lives of poor people much more difficult, — lives of poor people much more difficult, because what they are spending on energy is a huge portion of their— spending on energy is a huge portion of their income.— of their income. andy, do you have any sympathy _ of their income. andy, do you have any sympathy for — of their income. andy, do you have any sympathy for the _ of their income. andy, do you have any sympathy for the government? they've been dealt a very difficult hand. you've also got the activities

of the bank of england which, you know, yourformer of the bank of england which, you know, your former employer, of the bank of england which, you know, yourformer employer, i know you don't always take that rosy a view of what they've been up to? look, the fundamentals of the uk economy as strong as any of our neighbours would wish, right, and what is happening on military policy and on the fiscal front... soleiii and on the fiscal front. .. soleil man's terms... _ and on the fiscal front. .. soleil man's terms... interest - and on the fiscal front. .. soleil man's terms... interest rates, | man's terms... interest rates, fiscal policy. — man's terms... interest rates, fiscal policy, tax _ man's terms... interest rates, fiscal policy, tax and _ man's terms... interest rates, fiscal policy, tax and spend, . fiscal policy, tax and spend, neither are currently really helping. they are currently becoming a headwind to growth rather than a tailwind and that is why it's about back to fundamentals, right? so getting people into work and making them more productive in the world of work. it's something not discussed at all today, did not discuss much at all today, did not discuss much at all today, did not discuss much at all in public discourse is the skills agenda, you know, the biggest single break on business right now, i'm sure rocco will tell you this, is too few people with too few skills. we've heard nothing about skills. we've heard nothing about skills and that is a big gap if we

are to get growth going. haifa skills and that is a big gap if we are to get growth going. how much of an issue is that _ are to get growth going. how much of an issue is that for _ are to get growth going. how much of an issue is that for you _ are to get growth going. how much of an issue is that for you as _ are to get growth going. how much of an issue is that for you as an - an issue is that for you as an employer? you have two big hotels in the uk. how hard is it to get the right people? it the uk. how hard is it to get the right maple?— right people? it is difficult, particularly _ right people? it is difficult, particularly immediately i right people? it is difficult, i particularly immediately after right people? it is difficult, - particularly immediately after covid but looking at brown's hotel, for example. — but looking at brown's hotel, for example, only 27% of the workforce is british _ example, only 27% of the workforce is british. , example, only 27% of the workforce is ltritish-- at _ example, only 27% of the workforce is british. 2?%. at bell moral in is british. 27%. at bell moral in edinburgh. _ is british. 27%. at bell moral in edinburgh, 3796 _ is british. 27%. at bell moral in edinburgh, 3796 is _ is british. 2923 at bell moral in edinburgh, 37% is british. is british. 2943 at bell moral in edinburgh, 37% is british. the is british. 27943. at bell moral in edinburgh, 37% is british. the rest are all— edinburgh, 37% is british. the rest are all foreigners. so there is a reluctance _ are all foreigners. so there is a reluctance of english people to come and work— reluctance of english people to come and work in _ reluctance of english people to come and work in the industry and people say it's— and work in the industry and people say it's a _ and work in the industry and people say it's a question of low—paid jobs and so _ say it's a question of low—paid jobs and so on. — say it's a question of low—paid jobs and so on. i— say it's a question of low—paid jobs and so on, i was saying earlier, chambermaids at brown's are earning £34,000 _ chambermaids at brown's are earning £34,000 a _ chambermaids at brown's are earning £34,000 a year which is the average wa-e £34,000 a year which is the average wage across — £34,000 a year which is the average wage across the country so it's not 'ust wage across the country so it's not just that — wage across the country so it's not just that. there is a reluctance of english _ just that. there is a reluctance of english people to come into the industry — english people to come into the industry. maybe that is the

industry's fault. i industry. maybe that is the industry's fault.— industry. maybe that is the indust 's fault. . , , , _ industry's fault. i was in grimsby recently and _ industry's fault. i was in grimsby recently and somebody - industry's fault. i was in grimsby recently and somebody there - industry's fault. i was in grimsby| recently and somebody there was saying _ recently and somebody there was saying they'd _ recently and somebody there was saying they'd love _ recently and somebody there was saying they'd love to _ recently and somebody there was saying they'd love to get - recently and somebody there was saying they'd love to get young. saying they'd love to get young peopie — saying they'd love to get young people trained _ saying they'd love to get young people trained up— saying they'd love to get young people trained up to _ saying they'd love to get young people trained up to work - saying they'd love to get young people trained up to work in i people trained up to work in construction, _ people trained up to work in construction, there - people trained up to work in construction, there isn't - people trained up to work in construction, there isn't a l people trained up to work in - construction, there isn't a college in grimsby— construction, there isn't a college in grimsby or— construction, there isn't a college in grimsby or even _ construction, there isn't a college in grimsby or even near— construction, there isn't a college in grimsby or even near grimsby.| construction, there isn't a college - in grimsby or even near grimsby. the nearest _ in grimsby or even near grimsby. the nearest one _ in grimsby or even near grimsby. the nearest one is— in grimsby or even near grimsby. the nearest one is in— in grimsby or even near grimsby. the nearest one is in norwich. _ in grimsby or even near grimsby. the nearest one is in norwich. 50- in grimsby or even near grimsby. the nearest one is in norwich.— nearest one is in norwich. so that is the skills _ nearest one is in norwich. so that is the skills gap — nearest one is in norwich. so that is the skills gap and _ nearest one is in norwich. so that is the skills gap and training - nearest one is in norwich. so that is the skills gap and training with | is the skills gap and training with needs. we are closing our time on this section of the programme, if you think for people watching at home, people have had a really rough time, a lot of people have found it very hard to make ends meet in the last few years. what do you think people who have really struggled will make of whatjeremy hunt has said this morning? there is a sense it's on the never never, it's always being promised full screen i think they will know it's not true for them, inflation might be falling but things are still much more expensive than they were. things are still much more expensive than they were-— than they were. particularly housing costs. than they were. particularly housing costs- rents — than they were. particularly housing costs. rents are _ than they were. particularly housing costs. rents are still— than they were. particularly housing costs. rents are still rising, - than they were. particularly housing costs. rents are still rising, still - costs. rents are still rising, still inflating — costs. rents are still rising, still inflating we _ costs. rents are still rising, still inflating. we may— costs. rents are still rising, still inflating. we may have - costs. rents are still rising, still inflating. we may have reachedl costs. rents are still rising, still. inflating. we may have reached the peak of— inflating. we may have reached the peak of rent — inflating. we may have reached the peak of rent inflation _ inflating. we may have reached the peak of rent inflation but _ inflating. we may have reached the peak of rent inflation but people i peak of rent inflation but people know _ peak of rent inflation but people know because _ peak of rent inflation but people know because they— peak of rent inflation but people know because they see - peak of rent inflation but people know because they see their- know because they see their outgoings _ know because they see their

outgoings getting _ know because they see their outgoings getting bigger. i know because they see their| outgoings getting bigger. 1.5 million — outgoings getting bigger. 1.5 million people _ outgoings getting bigger. 1.5 million people coming - outgoings getting bigger. 1.5 million people coming off. outgoings getting bigger. 1.5. million people coming off fixed outgoings getting bigger. 1.5- million people coming off fixed rate mortgages— million people coming off fixed rate mortgages onto _ million people coming off fixed rate mortgages onto higher— million people coming off fixed rate mortgages onto higher rates - million people coming off fixed rate mortgages onto higher rates won'tl mortgages onto higher rates won't feel like _ mortgages onto higher rates won't feel like things _ mortgages onto higher rates won't feel like things are _ mortgages onto higher rates won't feel like things are getting - mortgages onto higher rates won't feel like things are getting better. feel like things are getting better for them — feel like things are getting better for them. . ~ feel like things are getting better for them. ., ., , ., ., for them. 0k, thank you, all three of ou. for them. 0k, thank you, all three of yom we — for them. 0k, thank you, all three of you. we have _ for them. 0k, thank you, all three of you. we have rachel _ for them. 0k, thank you, all three of you. we have rachel reeves . for them. 0k, thank you, all three l of you. we have rachel reeves with us here next week. i know you'll all remember the powerful words from esther ghey, the mum of brianna, who was killed by two other teenagers who planned their attack on messaging apps and had taken inspiration from the dark web. esther�*s interview has stirred up a big and important conversation about how to protect kids online. and she even spoke to the prime minister this week about her campaign to stop under—16s getting their hands on smartphones. but sadly she's not the only parent who believes their child was put in danger online. mariano janin's daughter mia took her own life in 2021, after being bullied by boys at her school in real life, and online. he now believes there should be a specific new law on cyberbullying to protect others in future. mariano's wife passed away

from an illness a few months after mia died. i met mariano recently, and he shared their story. mia starts school at the beginning of march 2021, after the second lockdown. and she was fine. but we found later that she was, on this first day in school, i think something happened that she couldn't explain to her or explain to us and took this tragic decision. you felt that she was living her life normally? yes. and yet there was this other world online. yes. i didn't know about this online world. what kinds of things, then, were being said? what kinds of things were happening? they say that she was bullied.

we found the screenshot of her saying that she was prepared to be badly bullied. naming the kids who were bullying her at this time. then we found that apart from these kids, there was a big group of boys, as well. um... it was a terrible time for me and for my wife. and what about the messages that the boys were sending then? what happened to them and what do you believe the school did? they organised in the school an assembly and asked the kids to delete the messages. what do you think about that? my common sense says that if you have a police investigation and you have this potential group, you should notify to the police. maybe this group of kids, they have information on the phone,

but that's what they did. the met lost her phone for a long time, which could have had vital evidence. you believe the school told the boys to delete their messages. yes. you heard hardly anything from them. how do you feel about how you've been treated? after a double tragedy, you know, i'm in survival mode trying to, you know, stand up again. justice, as well. justice. it's something that we cannot accept — that things like this happen and they brush it up under the carpet. we need to act. what role do you think that social media played in your daughter's death? social media, it's part of what's happened to mia. unfortunately, it's part of our kids' generation thing.

it's like in the same way that we used to communicate through music in the '805 and '90s, or sports. they communicate with social media. the good thing is we have, for example, the online safety bill that i think maybe this is the first step in order to get change, real change for our young kids. i think we need to do something against bullying. we need to revise the existing legislation about bullying, try to understand and try to act, do something. do you have faith that what the government has done with the online safety bill will make enough of a difference? i think it's an amazing thing that we will have something, of course, because technology is changing. but i think if you have a young kid, we need to understand

where are they, because that's the thing that i discovered after. there are some places on the internet that the kid can get access in a way that we will never try to do it — the dark places. and, sadly, you're not the only family to have been affected in this way. no. esther ghey, brianna's mum... yes. ..told us a few weeks ago she would like social media and smartphones to be banned for under—16s. what do you think of that idea? i understand her perfectly well because that was my feeling, as well, at the beginning. but it's like putting the genie inside the bottle again. we need to learn to live with this technology. but this is happening globally, it's not only in england. i'm sitting here in london — probably, at the same time, we have another parent doing the same in milano, another one in san francisco and buenos aires. this is one of the bad consequences of this. the government said that schools

shouldn't allow kids to have phones. they will have a phone, anyway. it's like this. they will hide the phone. and it's not the way. they need to learn to use their phone responsibly, in a responsible way. and we need to have the social media service with some kind of, you know, responsibility, as well. how much does it matter to you to try to change the situation? i know there are still lots of young people suffering. and this is something we are, you know, in a good country, in a modern society. we shouldn't have our kids dying for this stupid matter or subject. mia was always asking questions. she was always curious. she was. she was she wanted to understand everything... yes, yes. ..in the world. do you think you will ever be able

to understand why this happened? i think i can accept what happened. i don't think i will understand. it's a... i accept it's happened to me. ijust live in an empty house with a small dog. i used to have a home with a wife and a daughter. i accept that's my reality. i cannot escape from this. and let's finish with a happiest memory. what's the happiest memory of the three of you? happiest memories — it was holiday in majorca. we rented a boat and... i just gave the wheel to mia and my wife was sitting on the back and trying to stand up and mia... they started to laugh, both of them. it was... i have so much... lots of beautiful memories

with me and marisa. mariano, thank you so much for speaking to us. thank you to you, laura. thank you. mariano janin there. since our interview, the met police have told us that they have now found a missing sim card and phone belonging to mia and are arranging their return to the family. mia's school, thejewish free school in london, said all information held by the school was handed to the police and it said the coroner's report was not a reflection of how things are at the school today. if you are worried about bullying or mental health, there is lots of information on the bbc action line online. listening to that, here's bridget phillipson — who'd be education secretary if labour win the next election. you heard their mariano janin saying he'd like there to be a specific new law on cyber bullying to stop other children suffering in the way his daughter did. is that something you

might consider? we would want to work with the families— we would want to work with the families who experience bereavement to understand what they face on how the government can address that. we have the government can address that. have also the government can address that. e have also heard in recent weeks as well from brianna's mother. it is hard to understand what they have experience but the dignity in which they demonstrated how they want to be part of the change. and how we keep children safe. it is about the online world but also about what we can do to keep children safe in school and i have been talking about how we need to take action, especially when it comes to issues such as misogyny and sexism and how we can support young men to be part of the solution and not the problem. there was there a specific suggestion about a cyber—bullying law and also what esther ghey suggested, refusing access to social

media for under 165. your colleague was with us that week and he said labour had an open mind on that issue. have you decided whether you would consider extra changes to the law? irate would consider extra changes to the law? ~ ., ., ., would consider extra changes to the law? . ., . ., ., .. law? we would want to work with families and _ law? we would want to work with families and look _ law? we would want to work with families and look at _ law? we would want to work with families and look at evidence - law? we would want to work with i families and look at evidence around what needs to change. it took a long time for the online safety act to come into effect. we still think there are problems but we want to make it work, to ensure children are protected online and also how we support young people so they have skills to navigate this world. it is hard to turn back the clock. and there is potential with technology in terms of how we can support children's learning and development but parents worry about making sure children are protected. parents worry about making sure they know what is going on. what you have seen recently about what more needs to happen in terms of access to the dark web is another area we need to

take action on. dark web is another area we need to take action om— take action on. let's talk about child and plans _ take action on. let's talk about child and plans for _ take action on. let's talk about child and plans for child - take action on. let's talk about child and plans for child care i take action on. let's talk about child and plans for child care in j child and plans for child care in england due to come in. we asked jeremy hunt if he could guarantee it would be ready. we know from view as it does not appear plans already. what we heard from jeremy hunt was a failure to guarantee parents can access what he promised a year ago. a year ago i was pushing him hard on child and he rushed out this commitment, a pledge with no plan to make it happen and now parents in the months ahead when they try to access places promised will discover they cannot be delivered in the way he set out. what is peculiar, i thought, about what he said, he almost did not like his own policy and regarded it as an extension of the welfare state. childcare and early years education has to be a central part of supporting parents and how we deliver life chances for

children. the bit that is missing, alongside places, is how we get high quality provision alongside. your -lans quality provision alongside. your lans on quality provision alongside. your plans on childcare _ quality provision alongside. your plans on childcare are _ quality provision alongside. your plans on childcare are currently a mystery. if you win the election, will you promise parents the same amount of childcare the government has? i amount of childcare the government has? ., ., . ., amount of childcare the government has? ., ., ., ., , amount of childcare the government has? ., ., ., , has? i do not want to see parents losin: has? i do not want to see parents losing out — has? i do not want to see parents losing out but _ has? i do not want to see parents losing out but a _ has? i do not want to see parents losing out but a lot _ has? i do not want to see parents losing out but a lot of _ has? i do not want to see parents losing out but a lot of parents - has? i do not want to see parentsj losing out but a lot of parents will not get —— on what is promised. that not get -- on what is promised. that was not my — not get -- on what is promised. that was not my question. _ not get —— on what is promised. that was not my question. the government seems to struggle to fulfil the promise made but it is a big change and asjeremy hunt said, they are doing their best. how much provision will labour guarantee for parents? i have set out how i want to deliver a reformed system from the end of parental leave to the end of primary school and the first step is universal free breakfast clubs in primary school because all parents know childcare issues do not end when children arrive at school. it

would be a transformation notjust in terms of children arriving, getting a meal as they arrive, but also the education. i getting a meal as they arrive, but also the education.— getting a meal as they arrive, but also the education. i am asking on childcare. you _ also the education. i am asking on childcare. you criticise _ also the education. i am asking on childcare. you criticise the - childcare. you criticise the government plans but what will your plans be? the government promised 30 hours free for eligible families with children under five. what is your promise? you are happy to criticise them but what will your promise be?— criticise them but what will your romise be? , , ,., promise be? they rushed something out and there _ promise be? they rushed something out and there is _ promise be? they rushed something out and there is no _ promise be? they rushed something out and there is no way _ promise be? they rushed something out and there is no way to _ promise be? they rushed something out and there is no way to make - promise be? they rushed something out and there is no way to make it i out and there is no way to make it happen. i have asked the previous chief inspector foster to lead labour's early years review and to look at how we ensure places are there, and how we drive up standards, better integrate early years education into the system. and alongside that, breakfast clubs. it is notjust about alongside that, breakfast clubs. it is not just about the youngest children important though that is.

you are happy to criticise the government is having difficulty in achieving plans but you are not ready to say what your plans will be. i ready to say what your plans will be. . ,. , ., ready to say what your plans will be. i am saying ifi am education secretary in _ be. i am saying ifi am education secretary in the _ be. i am saying ifi am education secretary in the next _ be. i am saying ifi am education secretary in the next labour - secretary in the next labour government, early years education and childcare will be a priority and it is essential be get it right which is why i have asked him to lead the work. jeremy hunt said you need tens of thousand more staff. where are they coming from? that is what we need to get right.— what we need to get right. where would ou what we need to get right. where would you get _ what we need to get right. where would you get the _ what we need to get right. where would you get the money - what we need to get right. where would you get the money to - what we need to get right. where| would you get the money to spend what we need to get right. where - would you get the money to spend on it? many in the sector say you need more cash to get better staff and more cash to get better staff and more people. when you get more money from rachel reeves?— from rachel reeves? jeremy hunt announce more _ from rachel reeves? jeremy hunt announce more cash _ from rachel reeves? jeremy hunt announce more cash and - from rachel reeves? jeremy hunt announce more cash and it - from rachel reeves? jeremy hunt announce more cash and it will. from rachel reeves? jeremy hunt| announce more cash and it will not be possible to spend as intended because we do not have the places. when you have more money to spend on childcare? rachel reeves tells

people how tightly she will keep control of public finances. irate people how tightly she will keep control of public finances. we have more money _ control of public finances. we have more money to _ control of public finances. we have more money to spend _ control of public finances. we have more money to spend through - control of public finances. we have more money to spend through the| more money to spend through the delivery of breakfast clubs, a big difference from what we see right now. i am determined we deliver a better early education system. it is right for the economy. we had these commitments last year, connected to economic growth, and there is an argument about economic growth and impact of childcare and rachel reeves is clear about that. alongside that how we make sure children get a brilliant start. every school in the country, including secondaries and universities say to me if you want to make the biggest difference in education, make sure youse set up all children to succeed when they are younger. that is not the situation now and the next labour government will change that. rochdale and the by—election, labour

had a terrible time having chosen a candidate revealed to have offensive views. george galloway, very controversial character, a lot of politicians worry about, ends up winning the day. are you worried that will happen in other labour seats where somebody like him with those views can come in and whip up division and end up winning? i deeply regret where we got two in rochdale and that we had to pull support from the candidate and effectively did not field a candidate. what i am confident about, in a general election, we will have a strong candidate, someone who can bring the community together and that is what we are focused on. share together and that is what we are focused om— together and that is what we are focused on. . , ., ., focused on. are you worried it will ha en focused on. are you worried it will happen elsewhere? _ focused on. are you worried it will happen elsewhere? i _ focused on. are you worried it will happen elsewhere? i do _ focused on. are you worried it will happen elsewhere? i do not - focused on. are you worried it will happen elsewhere? i do not want| happen elsewhere? i do not want hatred and _ happen elsewhere? i do not want hatred and division _ happen elsewhere? i do not want hatred and division in _ hatred and division in any community. and tensions inflamed. sadly that is the mof that individual in question. we have to seek to bring communities together

and take a sensible approach and make sure labour candidates are of the highest calibre. john woodcock, who was a labour— the highest calibre. john woodcock, who was a labour mp. _ the highest calibre. john woodcock, who was a labour mp. he _ the highest calibre. john woodcock, who was a labour mp. he is - the highest calibre. john woodcock, who was a labour mp. he is in - the highest calibre. john woodcock, who was a labour mp. he is in the l who was a labour mp. he is in the lords and advises the prime minister on tackling political violence. he said mp5 and councillors should be instructed not to engage with anyone from a group called the palestinian solidarity campaign who have organised marches. john macdonald the labour mp has spoken at a vigil and another mp was pictured with them at the labour party conference in october. isjohn woodcock right to say mp5 should cut links with that group? i to say mps should cut links with that grow?— to say mps should cut links with that group? to say mps should cut links with that arou - ? . ~ , ., . ., that group? i agree mps need to take care in terms — that group? i agree mps need to take care in terms of— that group? i agree mps need to take care in terms of the _ that group? i agree mps need to take care in terms of the associations - that group? i agree mps need to take care in terms of the associations we l care in terms of the associations we have with individuals of organisations. it is important that the right to protest is a ride in democracy. that does mean that people will take part in marches where politicians might not agree but that part of democracy is really

precious. but that part of democracy is really recious. . ~ but that part of democracy is really recious. ., ., , ., bridget, thank you. we are racing towards ten o clock and we have been talking this morning about what, if anything much, jeremy hunt, will be trying to tempt you with in wednesday's budget. he told me he would be prudent about tax cuts. i do want, where it's possible to do so responsibly, to move towards a lower tax economy and i hope to show a path in that direction, but this will be a prudent and responsible budget for long—term growth, tackling inflation, more investment, more jobs, and that path to lower taxation as and when we can afford it. you told us what you thought. jenny walton — "i have heard it all before — responsibility, prudence, sticking to the plan. i feel no confidence that anything will change." paul in liverpool — "the conservatives have broken this country. nhs — broken. immigration — broken. call a general election."

roger — "hunt was very believable and sensible. he is a very good safe pair of hands. labour will make things worse, not better." arrange coming into the inbox. we can see what the desk make of it in the last few minutes. i wanted to ask about budgets and chancellors. we often have big figures. gordon brown and his clunking fist, ken clark with his cigar and whisky. andy, you knowjeremy hunt and rachel reeves well. tell us something we do not know about them. are they the characters for the moment? , are they the characters for the moment?— are they the characters for the moment? , ., , ., , are they the characters for the moment? , ., , , moment? they are both serious people and these are — moment? they are both serious people and these are serious _ moment? they are both serious people and these are serious times, _ moment? they are both serious people and these are serious times, that is - and these are serious times, that is a good thing. but the economy needs a good thing. but the economy needs a sprinkling of fairy dust. it needs its mojo back. that calls for more.

it exists in the regions and nations, not whitehall and westminster but the regions and nations. liberating them would liberate growth.— nations. liberating them would liberate growth. nations. liberating them would liberate urowth. . , �* . . , liberate growth. andy burnham was here last week _ liberate growth. andy burnham was here last week and _ liberate growth. andy burnham was here last week and he _ liberate growth. andy burnham was here last week and he would - liberate growth. andy burnham was here last week and he would agree. enough fairy dust around? there is not a _ enough fairy dust around? there is not a clear— enough fairy dust around? there is not a clear sense of where to go. that _ not a clear sense of where to go. that is _ not a clear sense of where to go. that is the — not a clear sense of where to go. that is the problem. a lot of people with the _ that is the problem. a lot of people with the freezing of tax thresholds, paying _ with the freezing of tax thresholds, paying more tax that should not pay those _ paying more tax that should not pay those levels of taxation. i have met the chancellor a few times. he would classify— the chancellor a few times. he would classify in— the chancellor a few times. he would classify in margaret thatcher times as an _ classify in margaret thatcher times as an arch— classify in margaret thatcher times as an arch wet. not prepared to take on the _ as an arch wet. not prepared to take on the treasury and the obr. the most _ on the treasury and the obr. the most ridiculous invention of george osborne's — most ridiculous invention of george osborne's. it needs radical change. the way— osborne's. it needs radical change. the way the — osborne's. it needs radical change. the way the country is run and approach — the way the country is run and approach we take to running the

country — approach we take to running the country. everything is now about what _ country. everything is now about what government is going to do for people _ what government is going to do for people it— what government is going to do for people. if you have people with more money— people. if you have people with more money in _ people. if you have people with more money in their pockets they might feel to _ money in their pockets they might feel to do — money in their pockets they might feel to do it for themselves. where will the magic _ feel to do it for themselves. where will the magic does _ feel to do it for themselves. where will the magic does come - feel to do it for themselves. where will the magic does come from? i l feel to do it for themselves. where l will the magic does come from? i do not think it — will the magic does come from? i do not think it will — will the magic does come from? i cr not think it will come from jeremy not think it will come from jeremy no gimmicks hunt, nor rachel reeves, who was saying she was talked to balance the books at the kitchen table. with the election on the horizon, both parties would like to win it and fairy dust might not win an election. win it and fairy dust might not win an election-— an election. safety is something attractive and _ an election. safety is something attractive and politics _ an election. safety is something attractive and politics is - an election. safety is something attractive and politics is not - attractive and politics is not always like that. the parties perceive a safe pair of hands is an advantage and in other eras being more exciting is an advantage. liz truss more exciting is an advantage. l z truss and kwasi kwarteng took a risk and it really backfired. it certainly did. you have given us magic fairy dust. thank you for

coming in on this important morning, the chancellor ahead of his big budget. a big thank you to vicky spratt, rocco forte and andy haldane. a huge thank you to you for watching our budget warm—up. it might not be a vintage day on wednesday. maybe there will not be much fairy dust. the country's balance sheet was battered by covid, then conflict in ukraine, so it won't be a moment when the chancellor will be tempting you with lots of tasty morsels. the economy has been as stuck as the tories are in the polls. numbers ten and 11 have a chance to try to budge both sets of numbers this week, but that's a tall order. next sunday, the woman who's afterjeremy hunt's job, rachel reeves, will be here. so do send your questions on her plans for the economy. catch anything again on iplayer, or me and paddy o'connell on bbc sounds later with this sunday's newscast. or i'll see you back here next sunday, same time, same place.

live from london, this is bbc news mediators start arriving in cairo, to try to reach an agreement on a temporary ceasefire between israel and hamas. shehbaz sharif becomes pakistan's prime minister again — weeks after uncertain elections led to the formation of a coalition government and it's a record—breaking night at the brit awards, raye picks up six prizes

best night of my life, hands down, without a shadow of a doubt. will it ever get better than this again? good morning. let's turn to the middle east. mediators are arriving in the egyptian capital cairo to try to reach an agreement on a temporary ceasefire between israel and hamas. there are reports that hamas says a gaza truce is possible 'within 24 to 48 hours' if israel accepts demands.|t comes as a top us official says israel has 'basically agreed' to a framework for a six—week ceasefire. the official says — it could begin immediately, if hamas is ready to release the most vulnerable israeli hostages it holds. but one egyptian official says there are still technical issues to resolve, including agreement on the number of palestinian prisoners the israelis would be prepared to release

in exchange.