russia's neighbour georgia is closely watching what happens in ukraine. it shares a 900km border with russia, who invaded in 2008. russian troops are still stationed in two separatist regions. georgia has just been granted eu candidate status

and talks ofjoining nato, yet its government is seen as sympathetic to russia. it's a diplomatic tightrope, and one my guest needs to walk. salome zourabichvili is the country's president. where does georgia's destiny lie — with russia or the west? salome zourabichvili, welcome to hardtalk. thank you for having me for the third time. do you think that russia wants control of georgia? russia wants control of not only georgia, but probably parts of europe.

it has its old ambitions and old aspirations of remaining as an imperialist state. but should we be thinking about what russia wants or what we want? well, the last time that you came on hardtalk, which was at a time when russia was on the back foot in ukraine, it was the end of 2022. you said you didn't think russia would invade georgia. the situation in ukraine looks very different now. and i wonder if you fear for georgia, particularly if president putin is successful in ukraine? well, i think that we should, again, all fear if president putin is successful in ukraine. but i don't think that he is successful in ukraine. he has been losing in ukraine all his first ambitions, strategic ambitions — taking kyiv, dividing the government and the population, dividing ukraine from europe,

dividing european between themselves, european with their populations. all of these big ambitions have not materialised. so, yes, he's not yet defeated strategically, militarily, but he is not victorious. so i think that it's the time... but he is at this moment in time... ..to gather efforts. but he is at the moment taking land. and i wonder if there's a situation, and georgia knows this full well, because russian troops invaded in 2008, if he retains control of part of ukraine, do you fear what that means for georgia? we all, again, we all have to fear what it means if russia retains land and does not have to retreat in its own internationally recognised borders. but, at the same time, georgia has not been invaded once, georgia has been invaded three times at least, and we can count more.

so there is nothing much more that russia has to do. russia is occupying our territories. it's not a question of separatism. it's a question of directly occupying russia's military bases on our territory. so what russia is now trying to do, and will continue as it does with other countries in europe and elsewhere, it's a hybrid war which has already started. it's trying to win through propaganda, it's trying to destabilise. today, we add another person that has been hijacked in the occupied territories. it's all the time on this non—existing border that they're taking hostages. so the constant attempts to destabilise georgia is something that we know very well. one thing that we can say is that probably we are a bit more resilient than other countries would be in that situation because of the experience, because the georgian

population knows quite well. well, i want to come on, and we'll talk about the breakaway regions in a moment, butjust in terms of the war in ukraine, russia is building a deep—sea port in abkhazia, one of these breakaway parts of georgia. president zelensky said, "russia announced the creation "of a new base, but we will reach them everywhere." that port, could that see georgia being dragged into the war? it could, it's a project. it's, again, part of the russian propaganda for the time being, the way mr putin, as an old kgb agent, he's, infact, waging a psychological war more than a military war. and it has been true with ukraine, it's true with the rest. it's very important what's happening with this port. and i think that it's something that the europeans should realise, because it's the black sea that is at stake. nobody can afford to see russia

taking control of this part of the black sea, which is our coast on the black sea, because that means that all the projects for the future that the european union has with connectivity, strategic transport over the black sea and connection with the rest of... over the caucasus to the central asian countries, that is something that we all need very much, is at stake there. so we need... you talk about it being a psychological game. there's been dredging there. do you not think that that sea port will be built? i don't know. it's not for the time being. it's something that is a project that is announced with very loud voices. but what i'm saying is that we should react to that already now, we shouldn't wait for the port to be coming into function, which will take probably one or two years if they decide to go ahead. that's now that we need to have the europeans consider that in the black sea, they cannot be evicted by russia.

they have to... what can they do about it? sorry, what are you calling on the eu to do? they have to restart what was happening before, which is the port calls in the black sea, in georgia, especially in the port of batumi, poti. they have to support the creation of anaklia port, where we should see active investment of the european union and of the americans. it shouldn't be words that we need... that's not going to stop russia building that port there. excuse me? that's not going to stop russia building that port. no, but we should be ahead. what, so that literally they can face off against each other? well, they are facing off one way or the other. but i think that the determination should be there and seen that european union considers what it is now that, the black sea is de facto a european sea, where europe has a right to be present, where europe cannot be excluded. and that's something that can be discussed together with turkey,

which is a very important partner in the black sea, something that should interest uk. russia being cut off from the west has led to increased trade with georgia. there's been a hugejump in imports in the first year of the war. georgia's also the land route from turkey to russia. is that bringing the two countries together, because georgia's even more dependent on russia? we're a bit more dependent towards russia. we are less dependent than many countries have been on energy matters, because we have a close neighbour that is azerbaijan, and that has helped us to avoid this dependency. we're dependent in exports and imports of products, mainly agricultural products and some cars, shipments. but it has brought georgia a bit closer to russia. but that doesn't mean that georgia is closer to russia.

that will never happen. because we have the occupied territories, because we have our history, we know how much closer we can get, which was not the case for some of the european countries that let themselves to be overwhelmed by the energy dependency towards russia. ok, so do you think...? to hear you, one would think you would... georgia needs to choose betweenjoining nato and the eu on the one hand, and russia on the other. georgia has chosen. constantly, since 30 years, the georgian population, when asked — or when it has to march on the streets, it marches — constantly, 80% of the population, and that's a very high percentage, say that it wants europe, it wants nato, and it doesn't want anything else. there is no other perspective for georgia. ok, but there's a difficulty, which you will be fully aware of, which is that the politicians, despite what the polls suggest, appear to play both sides.

and we have the then prime minister of the governing party, georgian dream, now its chair, irakli garibashvili, said lastjune one of the reasons russia invaded ukraine was ukraine's will and determination to become a member of nato. therefore, we see the consequences. and yet you're making it clear the government has said that it wants to join it. so what would that mean? governments come and go. the georgian population's will has been unchanged over 30 years of independence. it has been unchanged before that, because one of the countries that was the most reticent to the soviet rule was georgia. but if we leave with the recent period, georgian population is very determined. and i think that what is important to see is that since the decision of the european union in december to grant the candidate status, the government has changed its rhetoric. the government has changed,

the prime minister is gone and there is a new prime minister who is now with a completely new rhetoric, very pro—european, has been to brussels as a first trip. they've just swapped places. they have swapped places, but they have swapped... the prime minister and the chair. and that's very important. if that forces a consensus, that's fine, and i can only hail that. if not, whichever government will not be definitely on the european side will not win the next elections. but we're in a situation where we have the... he's now chairman of the party saying the european parliament's been trying to drag georgia into the war against russia. are you saying that's...? no, i'm saying that he has said that, he's president of the party, that party is going into elections in october and the georgian population's will is unaltered by these declarations. let's talk about the strange

situation, because the truth is that georgia can'tjoin nato, for a start, because of the breakaway regions of abkhazia and south 0ssetia. and that's not going to change, is it? why is it not going to change? can you see...? for 30 years, abkhazia and south 0ssetia have been separate. can you...? have been occupied, and i can see... i mean, i know some examples — germany was one. so i'm never going to say that there is no hope for reuniting not only territories, but populations. and the very big hope, the very clear path towards one form of reunion of these occupied territories is what? it's a european path, it's european integration. butjust wait one second. we should make clear to people what you're talking about, because the georgians, and we're talking about a fifth of what was georgia... 20% of our territory. indeed. exactly.

and there were georgians who were displaced. and now it's those two territories, south 0ssetia particularly, extremely dependent on russia. there's no will to be reunited with georgia in those territories. in south 0ssetia, there is no will. south 0ssetia is a large military base with people that are living there, that are basically the people working for the military base. so there, i agree, you cannot talk about political will. the case in abkhazia is very different. abkhazia has been discovering that what russia had promised, which would be to consolidate its identity, to consolidate its language, culture, all of that has not happened. and not only it has not happened, but russia has been putting very heavy pressure to counter what is the political will of the people that are living in abkhazia, which is never to give their lands to russia, never to allow that their sovereignty be contested.

and that's what has been happening. but the people of abkhazia may not want to be part of russia, but they don't want to be part of georgia. no, but they might want to be part of european union together with georgia. so that is the aim — eu membership and then... that is the perspective that we can offer to them if they do not see reintegrating. georgia, as sometimes is said, as a perspective, they can see coming together with us in the european union as a perspective. so this — but... since the eu candidate status was granted at the end of last year, can you see a point at which georgia will be an eu member? certainly, certainly. i think my immediate... i've lived practically and i came back to georgia as the first

diplomat and then the minister and then the president, after having been in the parliament, basically for that. that is my aim and my strong belief. and i've seen georgia going from, when i came back the first time, in europe, it was said that georgia could not evenjoin the neighbourhood policy, that we were too far away for that. and i've seen neighbourhood policy association, visa liberalisation, all the things that somebody would have thought completely impossible 30 years ago. you talk about the political changes since that status was granted. one of the things that changed is that bidzina ivanishvili, the founder of the governing party georgian dream, has said he is back in frontline politics. now, we should explain. this is a man who is considered by many to be an oligarch, georgia's only oligarch. he made a fortune in russia that's estimated to be around a third of the wealth of georgia.

there are a number of conditions that the eu has put on georgia. prominent among them is de—oligarchisation. now, when eu says that, is that who they're talking about? i will be precise. the eu has put as a condition, a system of prevention of oligarchisation, not what is called... so it doesn't matter that he's back in front...? no, it matters, it matters. it's good thing that he's back in politics, because that takes away this part of shadowiness, which was a very big problem of not knowing where the source of power, of having no responsibility, no... ..necessity to be answerable to the population. so i think, personally, that it's much better to have him in a clear position, even if he's a wealthy man. and we see that in many other countries that... they're not called oligarchs, they are called billionaires that are very influential. what i think is very important...

we should be clear about this. in december 2022, the european parliament called on the eu to sanction him. well, the european parliament, and it has not been sanctioned. that's not the question of power. and the question of system, which is very important, is that we have to put in place the conditions for preventing the oligarch power in the country. and that, i think, is a concern for many other countries than georgia. where i think is more directly a concern for georgia, if we're talking about system of power, is the fact that we are still in a one—party system. that's why it's very bad that the vertical of the system, which is a one—party system, is one person. ok, so you are... and we should explain this. i mean, you're president, but it's a largely ceremonial role. you have been... the government tried to impeach you. we have elections coming this year. if it's largely ceremonial, why did they want to impeach me? well, 0k, why did they want to? i will answer, i will. what is your answer

to that question? my answer is the same as gutierrez when he was asked, "what is your power?" and he answered, "it's the word, it's speaking." and that's the same thing. in a country, when you have a word that is recognised, that you are legitimate, because i was elected by the people, you can say many things and you can be very influential. so probably it was more of a political attempt to limit... we have elections this year. what does that mean, then, for the elections? what are you planning to do? i'm first planning to play my role as the president to the end, because i think that this institute, as an independent institute, has a very big role to play. to be on one side, and i intend to do that, to oversee the way the elections are going to be prepared and handled. the second thing i want to see what the government, who is now promising to do everything that's needed by the nine recommendations. there are now nine left of the european union.

i will see and push so that they are doing their part of the work. will you vote for them? at the same time — i'm not going to tell you who i'm going to vote for. but you're not going to stand. for elections? yes. in the elections, no, i'm not going to go down in the political arena. i am the president. my mandate goes until the election. let me ask you — do you trust georgian dream to maintain and improve the democracy in georgia? they have to, otherwise, the georgian... do you trust them to? they don't have to be trusted. if they do not do it, if they do not deliver in the timeframe that has been given by the european union, the georgian people are not going to vote for them. and that's the reason why they have changed the rhetoric. that's the reason why they are now saying that they're going to do everything possible to put in action these nine recommendations. we'll see — i'm going to be like the georgian voter.

i'll look at what has been done. but at the same time, i'm working with all other political parties to prepare a platform that would be the platform that would be put into action by whoever comes into the parliament at the next elections. and i would wish that it be a coalition government — why? because i think the time has come for georgia, which has gone a long way towards democracy, to move from a one—party system that is a legacy of the old times to a coalition government. you talk about the powers that you have as president. one of them is to be involved in what happens next to mikheil saakashvili, who is in prison. the pictures of him show that he has been incredibly ill. i mean, they are quite shocking. should he still be in prison? well, i think that

saakashvili is not navalny. and these comparisons that we hear... he compares — he's georgia's former leader. he's georgia's former leader that is injail because of the things that he has been doing when he was a president, not as a political opponent, but as a former president. so the answer to my question, should he still be in prison? i think that it's not for me to judge whether he should be in prison or not. it's for thejudges, for the georgian population. but the fact is that the georgian population, in its vast majority, consider that he has been, while he was the president of georgia, overdoing his power in many, many respects. and that's why he's in jail. now, on the humanitarian side that you were talking about, i have been very involved in overseeing what was happening to him, trying to make sure

that the treatment that were delivered were... there are reports that he's been tortured and has been poisoned. do you believe that? no. you absolutely don't believe that? i don't. and you say it's down to the courts and down to the people, but you have a role and you have been pressed. i've been pressed. and the more i'm pressed, the more difficult it will get, because i cannot accept that the discretionary power of pardoning, which belongs to the president and which is the fate also of many other people that are in jail, in very different conditions, i cannot accept that it's put under pressure either from within or from outside. so the pardoning power is something that is my moral decision, which i will take without informing anyone in advance... which is why you have ref... you told hardtalk you wouldn't pardon him. then in an interview with radio free europe in mid—december, you said, "i've not refused to pardon him." it's still a question mark. it's a question mark. the former us ambassador to russia,

michael mcfaul, said that saakashvili's death injail would be a victory for putin and a blow to georgian democracy — is he right? i don't think he will die in prison. i'm trying to and i will oversee until the end that this doesn't happen, because i agree that that would be a terrible blow for georgia's reputation, which we cannot let happen. that's why i was in daily contact with all the authorities involved, to be sure that nothing of that kind would be happening. but at the same time, there are other ways. the government is directly responsible, thejustice minister. the possibility of extradition is still there... ukraine and poland have said they'll take him. yeah, so that's the government's responsibility. is that the route you think will happen? it might. just a final thought. we're talking about georgia — because of geography, because of politics —

being almost at a pivot point. is that how you see it with the elections coming up this year, that these elections are critical to the future of georgia? it is certainly a very decisive year. but at the same time, when i look back, i think i must have said that almost every year, because we are living, really, since independence, an almost yearly existential situation where we never know next year what will be the situation. that's why we have to be so determined and so united. salome zourabichvili, thank you for coming on hardtalk. already? already. thank you very much for having me.

hello. hello there. much of the country had a pretty decent day today with some good spells of sunshine around. most places stayed dry, but there was wetter and breezier weather pushing into the south west of england, south wales. that rain will continue to journey northwards across much of the country during the overnight period. it will tend to weaken a little bit as it moves northwards, but it will become breezier for a time as the cloud and the rain pushes its way northwards and eastwards. behind it, skies will tend to clear, but we'll see a rash of showers, some of them heavy, running into the channel islands and across into southern england at times. maybe some showers pushing into northern ireland. now, where we have the cloud and the rain, then temperatures won't be as low as where they'll be where skies clear, and, again, a touch of frost, maybe the odd mist or fog patches, winds fall light. then into tuesday, we've got that overnight weather front pushing off in towards the north sea, another front pushing into northern ireland, western scotland — that'll enhance the shower activity here. could take a while for that front

to clear the east coast of both scotland and england. eventually, it will do, and it brightens up with plenty of sunshine. could still see a few showers towards the south and the south—east of england, the odd heavier one. but most places, i think, away from these fronts, should be dry with some sunshine. top temperatures, 11 or 12 celsius once again, pretty much where we should be this time of year. into wednesday, we see this blocking area of high pressure over scandinavia begin to exert its force across the country. it will start to push the weather fronts out back into the atlantic. so i think many places should be dry on wednesday, variable cloud across scotland and eastern england. perhaps the odd shower, the odd shower perhaps for cornwall up towards northern ireland. 0therwise most places should have a dry day with lots of sunshine around, and the breeze will be picking up from the south—east. top temperatures again, 12 or 13 celsius. similar story on thursday, if anything, that area of high pressure just edges a bit further westwards, pushing those fronts out into the atlantic. could be a bit more cloud around generally on thursday, central, northern, eastern areas, maybe the odd shower mixed into it.

but there will be some sunshine around, probably the best of it in western scotland in towards northern ireland, west wales, south—west england. temperatures maybe down a touch, the breeze will be picking up, ii celsius will be the high. friday looks like we could see more sunshine around, again a brisk south—easterly breeze. there's just signs of it starting to turn a bit more unsettled and a bit milder as we head into the weekend.

welcome to newsday. reporting live from singapore, i'm steve lai. the headlines: china's national people's congress begins in beijing, an annual meeting for thousands of delegates to discuss the country's biggest issues. the us vice president urges israel to allow more aid into gaza during talks with a key member of israel's war cabinet. the us supreme court rules that donald trump can stand as a presidential candidate in colorado, following the state's attempt to kick him off the ballot. chaos in haiti as armed gangs run riot and storm a prison

haiti's capital closes down as the government tries to enforce a state of emergency after armed gangs stormed a prison, freeing thousands of dangerous criminals. live from our studio in singapore, this is bbc news. it's newsday. welcome to bbc news, broadcasting to viewers in the uk and around the world. broadcasting to viewers we begin in beijing, where china's most high—profile political gathering is due to get under way in the next few hours. the meeting will lay out the government's vision for the year ahead and will be closely watched. 0ur china correspondent, stephen mcdonell, is in tiananmen square and gave me his analysis ahead of the national people's congress. well, on a bleak old day in beijing, i'm sure you can tell there's icy, light snow falling down, the national people's congress opens at a time of great pressure on the chinese economy.