i mean, we'd love to. are you talking to greta about barbie 2? yeah, we're always talking about it. i think right now, we're just so happy this week to be celebrating barbie�*s success. oscar night success for barbie looks uncertain — a surer bet that these streets, this lot, will be coming soon to a cinema near you. katie razzall, bbc news, los angeles. and you can listen to katie s full interview with pam abdy on the media show, on bbc sounds. time for a look at the weather. here's chris fawkes. todayit today it was a largely a dry day, although the amount of cloud varied from place to place. 12 degrees in hampshire and 13 in parts of sussex, but for the north sea coast a lot of clout and for the most of the day temperature struggled around 6 degrees. the uk has a helmet wind

and it is blowing at the moment. north—east england, 2a miles an hour. 73 miles an hour over the tops of the pennines. at the moment we have got gusts of wind of 57 miles an hour, so two or three times the strength of the winds elsewhere in northern england. overnight it will stay quite blurry and there will be a lot of cloud around with rain pushing northwards and westwards. none of the rate will be heavy. temperatures four to seven overnight. the weekend whether prospect is dominated by this low weather pressure further south. it will throw in bands of rain across the uk, and on saturday we start off with rain in the south—west going into northern england and that will move northwards to reach scotland and northern ireland in the afternoon. at the same time it will brighten up across east anglia and the midlands with hazy, sunny spells coming through. could get up to 13

in the sunshine. but in the north sea coast cold again, temperatures just six or seven celsius. saturday looks like being the better of the day is at the weekend because on sunday we have got more extensive outbreaks of rain moving across the uk, some of which could be quite heavy. and with those cold winds coming overfrom heavy. and with those cold winds coming over from the heavy. and with those cold winds coming overfrom the north sea temperatures just six coming overfrom the north sea temperaturesjust six or coming overfrom the north sea temperatures just six or seven in the eastern areas, well below average. ten or 11 is the average at this time of the year generally. thanks, chris. and that's bbc news at ten. on bbc one, it's time to join our colleagues for the news

the uk's armed forces — shrinking and short of the kit they need in a dangerous world. a report today lays bare the military�*s problem — a multi billion pound black hole. but is it, in part, a problem of the mod's own making? a group of influential mps is warning that ministers currently lack a "credible plan" to fund the ministry of defence. what does this mean for our national security? general sir richard barrons has served as one of the uk's most senior generals. the editor of defence analysis says the military establishment just need to spend smarter.

also tonight — the university hospitals birmingham trust has received a scathing assessment from the cqc, after months ofjournalism from this programme. we ask local mp preet gill how the problem can be fixed. and this... they were called the untouchables of india, forced into the practice of cleaning excrement from toilets and open drains. the only thing they have to protect their bodies is oil. kirsty speaks to writer and director ava duvernay about her latest film, origin, a deep dive into the roots of world racism. what is the ugly thing in america? what? i don't think we have time! america is built on a miss

education, it thrives on americans not knowing our history. good evening. are the uk's armed forces still up to the job of defending us? the public accounts committee's latest report says we will be left increasingly reliant on our allies because of a £29 billion black hole in defence spending. the military hasn't had a good press lately with misfiring missiles, a shortage of army recruits and declining numbers of soldiers, navy aircraft carriers out of action and the raf short of warplanes. labour accuses ministers of losing control of finances while the treasury argues it's seen the largest sustained defence spending since the cold war. the committee says the credibility of our armed forces is undermined and the mod doesn't have a credible plan. here's joe inwood. the invasion of ukraine has changed everything. we have moved from the

post war to a prewar of the defence secretary, setting out the multiple threats britain faces. according to today's influential report, the ministry of defence is ill—equipped to face those challenges. we ministry of defence is ill-equipped to face those challenges. we know that it has had _ to face those challenges. we know that it has had real— to face those challenges. we know that it has had real problems, - to face those challenges. we know. that it has had real problems, we've been pushing for more senior responsible owners, the people who would watch the project every step of the way to keep an eye on it, keep those costs down and frankly the perfect thing delivered late doesn't serve armed forces well or the security of our nation well. each year the mod produces a plan setting out what ships, planes, tanks and more will be bought over the next decade. the sums are vast, currently just over £288 the next decade. the sums are vast, currentlyjust over £288 billion. but it seems not enough to match the ambitions. the report found the gap between what the mod is planning on spending and the actual money available was £16.9 billion. but

that rose to 29 billion when you factor in the equipment that government policy expects them to purchase. so, why the gap? inflation has played a major part, as have changes in foreign exchange rates. but there is one thing that dwarfs all others. ., , all others. trident. one of the big contributors _ all others. trident. one of the big contributors to _ all others. trident. one of the big contributors to this _ all others. trident. one of the big contributors to this increase - all others. trident. one of the big contributors to this increase is - all others. trident. one of the big | contributors to this increase is the increase in the nuclear enterprise and that is 38 billion over the ten year plan so that has an impact but if we are to pay for that we have to look at what else we're going to do all we are going to have to trim. it is a big challenge, nobody wants to reduce capability but if you can't afford it, you're in the worst of all worlds. afford it, you're in the worst of all wedde— afford it, you're in the worst of all worlds-_ afford it, you're in the worst of all worlds. �* , , all worlds. the uk's independent nuclear deterrent, _ all worlds. the uk's independent nuclear deterrent, trident, - all worlds. the uk's independent nuclear deterrent, trident, stilli nuclear deterrent, trident, still has the backing of both main political parties. that is despite the embarrassment of a recent failed test launch. for many, the war in ukraine has strengthened the case for the pound system. we ukraine has strengthened the case for the pound system.— for the pound system. we are in a world in which _

for the pound system. we are in a world in which unfortunately, - world in which unfortunately, competition between nuclear armed powers— competition between nuclear armed powers is_ competition between nuclear armed powers is becoming more prevalent than it_ powers is becoming more prevalent than it was— powers is becoming more prevalent than it was ten years ago, after the end of— than it was ten years ago, after the end of the — than it was ten years ago, after the end of the cold war, nuclear weapons were hot— end of the cold war, nuclear weapons were not really relevant to the things — were not really relevant to the things we _ were not really relevant to the things we are engaged in. they are now, _ things we are engaged in. they are now. you _ things we are engaged in. they are now, you can see that in ukraine, ukraine _ now, you can see that in ukraine, ukraine moore is a war fought under a nuclear— ukraine moore is a war fought under a nuclear shadow. but ukraine moore is a war fought under a nuclear shadow.— a nuclear shadow. but that is far from the only — a nuclear shadow. but that is far from the only lesson _ a nuclear shadow. but that is far from the only lesson being - a nuclear shadow. but that is far i from the only lesson being learned from the only lesson being learned from the only lesson being learned from the russian invasion of ukraine. for example, the use of relatively cheap drones, often with devastating effect, is challenging many assumptions. as is the shortage of ammunition. the many assumptions. as is the shortage of ammunition-— of ammunition. the war in ukraine has really thrown _ of ammunition. the war in ukraine has really thrown up _ of ammunition. the war in ukraine has really thrown up problems - of ammunition. the war in ukraine | has really thrown up problems with our supply change but with our allies as well. equipment gets used very fast when war is raging and it is important there is a proper long supply chain and confidence in the industry that it can continue to provide these.— industry that it can continue to provide these. one of the lessons from this war _ provide these. one of the lessons from this war is _ provide these. one of the lessons from this war is the _ provide these. one of the lessons from this war is the intensity, - provide these. one of the lessons from this war is the intensity, the | from this war is the intensity, the rate at— from this war is the intensity, the rate at which those munitions are

used _ rate at which those munitions are used uu — rate at which those munitions are used u -. ~ , , ., rate at which those munitions are usedu. ~ , i. , . used up. the ministry of defence sa s the used up. the ministry of defence says they are _ used up. the ministry of defence says they are spending _ used up. the ministry of defence says they are spending more - used up. the ministry of defence i says they are spending more money than ever before and introducing new systems to make procurement more efficient. they also say the uk's armed forces stand ready to protect the national interests and those of the national interests and those of the uk's allies. what implications does this have for our defence? i5 the uk's allies. what implications does this have for our defence? is a critical time- _ does this have for our defence? is a. critical time. we have huge unrest around the world we have a defence equipment plan for what we should today which is not affordable. the mod has to make a very tough judgment and whoever wins the next election will have to look and make very tough decisions about what is spent on what bits of kit and whether or not we do continue to try and deliver every bit of capability thatis and deliver every bit of capability that is currently in the plan. the re ort that is currently in the plan. the report raises _ that is currently in the plan. the report raises serious questions about the quantity and quality of defence spending in the world that has not felt so unpredictable in decades. general sir richard barrons, former commanderjoint forces command is on the line, and here in the studio is

defence analyst francis tusa. thank you both for coming on the programme. general, are within a position at the moment, would you say? position at the moment, would you sa ? ~ . position at the moment, would you sa ? . ., ., ., ~' position at the moment, would you sa? ., ., ., ., say? we are in a weak position, and we can exolain _ say? we are in a weak position, and we can exolain it — say? we are in a weak position, and we can explain it to _ say? we are in a weak position, and we can explain it to ourselves - say? we are in a weak position, and we can explain it to ourselves for i say? we are in a weak position, and we can explain it to ourselves for a l we can explain it to ourselves for a while because the armed forces we have today are the results of the journey we have travelled since the end of the cold war, which accounts for why they are so small and so hollowed out. that's the position we have arrived outjust as the world changes in a way that grant shapps has described, we are back to dealing with a great confrontation so we will have to think defence going for. 50 so we will have to think defence oiiin for. ,., so we will have to think defence iioin for. i. ., so we will have to think defence ioiin for. i. ., ., so we will have to think defence ioiin for. ,, ., ., ., , going for. so you argue more money should be invested _ going for. so you argue more money should be invested in _ going for. so you argue more money should be invested in defence, - going for. so you argue more money should be invested in defence, one | should be invested in defence, one of the government has promised to increase defence spending. when economic conditions allow. is that enough? i economic conditions allow. is that enouih? ~ . economic conditions allow. is that enouih? ~' , , ., enough? i think the first question for the ministry _ enough? i think the first question for the ministry of _ enough? i think the first question for the ministry of defence - enough? i think the first question

for the ministry of defence is - enough? i think the first question for the ministry of defence is forl for the ministry of defence is for the spend of about £50 billion a year, cannot be spent better? the answer is unequivocally yes, if they allowed to change some of the processes and if they of the decisions they make another when they have done that will have a case for going back to spending more but in the world we live in it is right to be able to request for more. francis, do you think more money needs to be put into our military? we have to ask, when 53 billion is being _ we have to ask, when 53 billion is being spent on defence, the uk has a first or— being spent on defence, the uk has a first or second biggest defence budget— first or second biggest defence budget in europe, others will be overtaken— budget in europe, others will be overtaken by germany and france, why so much _ overtaken by germany and france, why so much is _ overtaken by germany and france, why so much is going on at one end, the handle _ so much is going on at one end, the handle is _ so much is going on at one end, the handle is turning and so little comes— handle is turning and so little comes out of the other end as regards — comes out of the other end as regards equipment. sadly, is the military— regards equipment. sadly, is the military -- — regards equipment. sadly, is the military —— maximus outfits defensive end chris max uttley, yes. there _ defensive end chris max uttley, yes. there were _ defensive end chris max uttley, yes. there were reforms in 2012 were the best services were given responsibility for their budgets and made _ responsibility for their budgets and made decisions on procurement and spending _ made decisions on procurement and

spending and they comprehensively have failed the tests since then, and the — have failed the tests since then, and the services will not earn up to the fact— and the services will not earn up to the fact that they cannot be allowed to continue to do procurement because — to continue to do procurement because they will continue to waste money _ because they will continue to waste money. like for like, france, which is similar— money. like for like, france, which is similar needs of the uk, gets 20 to 30% _ is similar needs of the uk, gets 20 to 30% more than we did. the to 3096 more than we did. the government — to 3096 more than we did. the government is _ to 3096 more than we did. the government is not _ to 30% more than we did. tie: government is not here to to 30% more than we did. tt9: government is not here to fight to 30% more than we did. tt9 government is not here to fight his corner but it has said, the treasury minister said he did not recognise the findings of the report and downing street said the prime minister had overseen the largest sustained defence spending increase since the end of the cold war, the £24 billion uplift in cash terms over the spending review period. you're saying more money isn't needed for when you hear that from the government, what's your response?— the government, what's your response? the government, what's your res-onse? , ., ., ., , response? they had to admit they have a problem. _ response? they had to admit they have a problem. just _ response? they had to admit they have a problem. just saying - response? they had to admit they have a problem. just saying there | response? they had to admit they i have a problem. just saying there is nothing _ have a problem. just saying there is nothing wrong, everything is fine, that is— nothing wrong, everything is fine, that is why— nothing wrong, everything is fine, that is why the mod is in this state — that is why the mod is in this state in _ that is why the mod is in this state. in trying to reconcile this whole _ state. in trying to reconcile this whole thing about producing extra money _ whole thing about producing extra money and then looking at the figures. — money and then looking at the figures, published in the spring or autumn— figures, published in the spring or autumn estimates, you cannot make them _ autumn estimates, you cannot make them add _

autumn estimates, you cannot make them add up. so i'm afraid, itjust doesn't _ them add up. so i'm afraid, itjust doesn't stack up. but them add up. so i'm afraid, it 'ust doesn't stack upfi them add up. so i'm afraid, it 'ust doesn't stack up. but things are not ok, doesn't stack up. but things are not ok. general- _ doesn't stack up. but things are not ok. general- a _ doesn't stack up. but things are not ok, general. a (eter— doesn't stack up. but things are not ok, general. a ceter intro - doesn't stack up. but things are not ok, general. a ceter intro we - doesn't stack up. but things are not ok, general. a ceter intro we have| ok, general. a ceter intro we have heard about navy aircraft carrier is out of action, the raf short of war planes. francis was saying it is about spending smarter. you're saying more money is needed, so if the kit is not working properly, what's the answer? we the kit is not working properly, what's the answer?— the kit is not working properly, what's the answer? we are on the threshold of _ what's the answer? we are on the threshold of the _ what's the answer? we are on the threshold of the most _ what's the answer? we are on the threshold of the most profound i threshold of the most profound transformation of our armed forces for 150 years, is the digital age changes how we fight just as a changed how we live, work and play. some of the value in defence can be restored by taking advantage of technology that is coming to defence from the civil sector, some of it can be done by addressing things like making a better use of reserves. but i absolutely concur, there is much more that can be done with £50 billion than we do just now. but we are going to come as a

country, have to ask is a very serious questions of ourselves about how we defend ourselves in an era which once again brings us the potential of existential risk to our security and prosperity. the latest data from nato _ security and prosperity. the latest data from nato estimates - security and prosperity. the latest data from nato estimates the - security and prosperity. the latest data from nato estimates the uk| data from nato estimates the uk spends 2.07% of gdp on defence. some of the detail that's come out of this report today, only two of the 46 equipment programmes are currentlyjudged to be highly likely to be delivered on time and on budget and quality. find to be delivered on time and on budget and quality.— budget and quality. and the performance _ budget and quality. and the performance of _ budget and quality. and the performance of the - budget and quality. and the performance of the major . budget and quality. and the _ performance of the major programmes has been _ performance of the major programmes has been going down every year and when _ has been going down every year and when they— has been going down every year and when they national audit office examine the programme is at the most recent— examine the programme is at the most recent one _ examine the programme is at the most recent one is _ examine the programme is at the most recent one is the worst since since they started the process in 2012 and it isn't— they started the process in 2012 and it isn't getting better, which is what _ it isn't getting better, which is what you — it isn't getting better, which is what you get from the mod every year. _ what you get from the mod every year. yes. — what you get from the mod every year, yes, we understand, but it's getting _ year, yes, we understand, but it's getting better. it is not, it is getting — getting better. it is not, it is getting worse and the sooner people stop trying to pretend everything fine and — stop trying to pretend everything fine and admit isjust going down a fine and admit is just going down a drain— fine and admit is just going down a drain in_ fine and admit is just going down a drain in so— fine and admit isjust going down a

drain in so many areas, the ajax fighting. — drain in so many areas, the ajax fighting, the wedge tail, the list is almost — fighting, the wedge tail, the list is almost endless. until people on ”p is almost endless. until people on up to— is almost endless. until people on up to the — is almost endless. until people on up to the fact the system is broken, it will— up to the fact the system is broken, it willjust _ up to the fact the system is broken, it willjust get worse and they will not be _ it willjust get worse and they will not be any more money. general, the government — not be any more money. general, the government has _ not be any more money. general, the government has many _ not be any more money. general, the government has many competing - government has many competing demands, schools, the nhs and so forth, so at the military does take a head, some would argue is a question of priorities. == a head, some would argue is a question of priorities.- question of priorities. -- if the military does _ question of priorities. -- if the military does take _ question of priorities. -- if the military does take a _ question of priorities. -- if the military does take a hit. - question of priorities. -- if the military does take a hit. that's question of priorities. -- if the i military does take a hit. that's a key point. for about the last 30 years we have been able to put defence pretty much on the back burner because we haven't been subject to existential threat and i will have to think about how we do that with our allies in nato. it is going to cause the mod and the armed forces to answer some of the hard questions about what they do with the money they get. and there will have to ask ourselves some serious questions about what else we might have to do to bring defence with our

allies up to scratch. one of the aspects of that will be, we can no longer rely on the american taxpayer being quite so generous around european security and with a bigger bill bill in due course.— bill bill in due course. that's what this report _ bill bill in due course. that's what this report also _ bill bill in due course. that's what this report also said, _ bill bill in due course. that's what this report also said, you - bill bill in due course. that's what this report also said, you can't . this report also said, you can't rely on the allies to support us because they are going through the same financial difficulties at the government here is going through. t government here is going through. i suppose one of the problem, we heard from the _ suppose one of the problem, we heard from the secretary of state a few days ago — from the secretary of state a few days ago when asked about if we should _ days ago when asked about if we should go— days ago when asked about if we should go to a wartime economy, trending — should go to a wartime economy, trending up or reserves, he basically— trending up or reserves, he basically said we are not on the front— basically said we are not on the front line. _ basically said we are not on the front line, estonia is on the front line. _ front line, estonia is on the front line. there — front line, estonia is on the front line, there is no threat. this is the thing — line, there is no threat. this is the thing that kids are lies going, well. _ the thing that kids are lies going, well. we — the thing that kids are lies going, well, we cannot trust the uk, they don't _ well, we cannot trust the uk, they don't believe they have skin in the game. _ don't believe they have skin in the game, britain is happy to say is all happening — game, britain is happy to say is all happening far away. and if you want a solution _ happening far away. and if you want a solution to this, we have to do, sadly. _ a solution to this, we have to do, sadly. admit— a solution to this, we have to do, sadly, admit the uk is not a global power. _ sadly, admit the uk is not a global power. the — sadly, admit the uk is not a global power, the so—called indo—pacific tilt, power, the so—called indo—pacific tilt. we _ power, the so—called indo—pacific tilt, we can't afford it, it's not sustainable and nobody in asia believes — sustainable and nobody in asia believes it so why are we following

it? ., , ., ., believes it so why are we following it? . , ., ., ,., it? one final question for you, general- _ it? one final question for you, general. gone _ it? one final question for you, general. gone in a _ it? one final question for you, general. gone in a different i it? one final question for you, - general. gone in a different topic, but he served in northern ireland around the same time that stakeknife was operating as a british agent. what is your reaction to the recent report regarding this? t what is your reaction to the recent report regarding this?— report regarding this? i haven't read the report _ report regarding this? i haven't read the report and _ report regarding this? i haven't read the report and in - report regarding this? i haven't read the report and in many - report regarding this? i haven't i read the report and in many cases report regarding this? i haven't - read the report and in many cases it deals with events from 50 years or so ago, i think it's really important to get to the bottom, to the truth of what happened during the truth of what happened during the darkest days of the so—called troubles in northern ireland in the 19705 troubles in northern ireland in the 1970s and 1980s but i think we should not think that that those sorts of things are impossible today, the legislation passed in 2000 to regulate investigative powers and the sorts of machines that are now in place mean that those sorts of issues that the

stakeknife report is discussing really couldn't arise again today. thank you. i appreciate your time. in recent months on this programme, we've exposed some of the problems at the university hospitals birmingham trust. we've heard stories of alleged bullying, and staff being punished for raising concerns. today a new care quality commission report has downgraded the trust's leadership from good to inadequate, as inspectors have warned of a "genuine fear" of speaking up and staff feeling unsafe from bullying, sexual harassment, misogyny, and racism. the trust's overall cqc rating was downgraded to "requires improvement". preet gill is the labour mp for birmingham edgbaston. i spoke to her a little earlier and started off by asking what her response was to today's report. i'm really, really disappointed, of course, in terms of the latest cqc report. i am disappointed notjust for myself as the constituency mp,

but for all the staff that worked there and for patients. i mean, it was bbc newsnight that exposed a toxic culture of bullying at the trust. and since then, there's been a number of whistle—blowers that came forward to myself. but of course, we've seen lots of reviews take place with very clear recommendations. the university hospital trust itself had commissioned a review into the culture of the organisation. so whilst i accept that there has been some changes being made in respect of leadership, in terms of governance, what this report really highlights is that culture still exists and there isjust so much more that needs to be done in order to rebuild and gain the trust of staff and patients. the report says that staff told the qc they felt leaders were fearful of confronting workers exhibiting racist or sexually inappropriate behaviours. it also said staff in many senior roles spoke candidly with the inspectors about the culture, concerns over sexual safety and unchallenged hierarchical poor behaviours. i mean, this is pretty strong stuff, isn't it?

yes, it really is. i mean, the fact that staff are still raising their own safety, a culture of bullying, a fear of speaking up — we've also seen reports of sexual harassment, of misogyny, the gender pay gap. i mean, there is a lot to really unravel within this report. and clearly, it is going to take time for any trust to implement the recommendations. and that is really, really important. what we've got to now start seeing is a prioritisation of those recommendations where a trust feels that actually, if it comes to the leaders, that what it discloses is a, going to be listened to and b, going to be acted upon. do you think politicians like yourself should take some responsibility for these happenings? i mean, there is an argument that local politicians should have acted sooner when complaints were made. i approached the integrated care board, making it very clear that actually i wanted to have a reference group set up where i could hold the trust to account to make sure that the reviews that were taking place, any patient safety concerns

were being acted upon straightaway, and i wanted to stay in the long haul. look, any culture in an organisation like this that serves 2.2 million patients is going to take time. we know there's big, huge workforce shortages. this is an nhs crisis especially. some of the stuff that the cqc has raised around skill sets and skill mixes on boards, this is something that actually, many trusts have to deal with. but of course, what what we are talking about here is a long—standing toxic culture of bullying, and that has got to change. we've got to make sure that, you know... this could lead to poor outcomes in terms of patient safety and standard of care, and that's why it's really important that we get the culture right. let me be very, very clear, though. there are staff at the organisation that go above and beyond. i hearfrom many patients about the excellent quality of care that they get here. so we have got to put this into context. do you think labour will do more to protect these individuals? because as we found from the cqc

report, many are still very fearful of speaking up. look, i think it's really important — i think it's important that whistle—blowers were able to come to bbc newsnight, they were able to come to myself, they were able to go to cqc. this is how organisations understand where they are going wrong and what needs to be focused and addressed. and that is really important. we've got to make sure that those coming forward are thanked, because it's it's not easy, i totally appreciate that. and we've got to take their concerns very, very seriously, as i have done with 150 whistle—blowers that came forward to myself, giving them an opportunity to speak to those directly that were undertaking the review and taking their concerns very, very seriously. and so, i will continue to do that. we asked to speak to someone from the trusts — they directed us to a statement. "we believe that the significant changes in our leadership, the new devolved group operating model with local hospital—based leadership and the actions set out in our improvement programme, since the cqc�*s visit,

evidence our commitment to learning, improving and evolving." the movie origin opened today in the uk. it's based on the story of the pulitzer prize winning author isabel wilkerson's non fiction book caste — the origins of our discontents. in it wilkerson goes on a journey through america, germany and india to explore the origins of the system to keep african americans in an inferior position. the book was endorsed by barack obama, and the new york times called it an instant american classic. origin is written and directed by ava doo vernaay who directed the much praised film selma, about the epic march from selma to montgomery to secure voting rights. our kirsty wark sat down with her. i want to be in the story. and build a thesis that shows how

all of this is linked. i don't write questions... i write answers. do you remember where you were when you read the book? yes. this is the summer of the pandemic, the first summer. it was about two or three months after the murder of george floyd in the united states. i was at home, no one was leaving, we were we were quarantined. and i really didn't want to read the book. i was in a very tender place, i was sensitive. i was upset about everything that was going on in the world. but some friends really encouraged me to read it. and when i did, i was so glad that i experienced that book. it gave me an anchor during a very unsteady time, a way to organise my thoughts about myself and my place in the world. so what you wanted to do essentially was to reset the conversation around race and caste? you know, what it was... it was less about resetting it

around race, it was more exploring what makes up race. how can you solve a problem if you don't know all of its parts? if i don't have the pieces of the puzzle? so i just felt like there was something missing in the conversation about race. so it's really adding to it as opposed to resetting it. but it was... reading the book because it was a kind of, for many people, i think it was a kind of light bulb moment that actually caste underpins everything? that's right, yeah. yeah. and the work that she'd done on that herself. caste, she writes, "caste needs scaffolding to maintain hierarchies." yes. talk to me about some of that scaffolding. yeah, in my understanding of the book is that and what caste is, it's the foundation of all of our isms. it sits underneath all of the ways in which we divide ourselves from one another racism, sexism, classism, homophobia, islamophobia, anti—semitism. all of them sit on top of this idea that i'm better than you because of a set of random traits.

yeah, and it's about separation and segregation... it is. ..that�*s how we maintain those hierarchies. and that's how you maintain power and status. the conversation about race as it is in america, in the election, this election, is more likely to be around the borderlands but it's not as yet developed into kind of full blown trump section of his campaign has it? oh, i think that he is, he has and he's never stopped. the dog whistle politics, the very blatant calls for division, it's being done in any number of ways and it will only escalate as we get closer to the election. and how do you account for the fact that it appears that more african americans are throwing their support behind donald trump? i don't think that's a true statistic.

those are anomalies in what they're trying to highlight. when you look at trump in his stump speeches and you see ten black people behind him that say "blacks for trump." those are not the majority of african american people. slavery lasted 246 years. that's 13 generations of people. plus another 100 years ofjim crow segregation, violence and murder. it is, of course, horrific. i am not downplaying any of it. there were so many millions of african americans who... ..were murdered. when you left the american scene, you did two things, you were in germany and you also in india. let's talk about india first, because, i mean, i had no idea that martin luther king had written about his time in india — tell me about that. well, i knew that dr king had visited india. i didn't know that he had written about it so extensively and actually spoke about it in churches and on the pulpit when he was back in the united states. we actually find some old audio

of him talking about his time there. i made selma, so i've studied dr king extensively. but i never heard him make the connections between african americans and the dalit people. he called them untouchables at the time. and there's striking connections that have somehow been lost to history. millennia ago, dalits were called the untouchables of india and forced into the degrading work of manual scavenging. the practice of cleaning excrement from toilets and open drains by hand in exchange for leftover food. the only thing that they had to protect their bodies is oil, each other in their prayers. so this is a scene that really illustrates, i won't say an occupation because it's not an occupation, it's something that they're relegated to. and the very act of it is generations old.

some people will tell you that it doesn't happen to this day. i've seen it. and so we really wanted to amplify this, to show people around the world that this is what happens with caste and the most extreme form. when people are seen not as human and they're relegated to do the most horrific things that we wouldn't ask of ourselves to do. and here is india talking about itself as a thriving modern democracy. well, don't all thriving modern democracies have something ugly underneath, unfortunately? what is the ugly thing in america, do you think? oh, what? i don't think we have enough time. you know, america is built on a miseducation of ourselves. it thrives on americans not knowing their own history. we currently have laws on the books and laws that are on the ballots to deny history, to take books off of shelves, to criminalise librarians and teachers and people who teach it.

this is the bedrock of america's disease, is not a forgetfulness, but a purposeful absence of the truth. and indeed, wilkerson's book briefly, was off the shelves in texas? yes, it was. it is in a group of books that is folks are circling to try to remove from book shelves in some states in the united states. but that, of course, was stopped by the courts in texas? we'll see how often the courts can stop, especially when our highest court is the supreme court, all named by donald trump. well, most of them. do you think hollywood operates a version of a caste system? oh, yes, absolutely, yes. you know, swim without getting wet. you know, you can't be in hollywood and not bump up against caste. the idea that some are higher, have more power and status than others.

and it's notjust my industry and the entertainment industry,