out on m the other side of the out on the other side of the bod when the other side of the body when businesses were opening up quicker but in the initial stages before lockdown came into force was the planning there? i think mark drakeford has already admitted it possibly wasn't where it needed to be because they had their focus smoke on the resolution to brexit deals and things like that so i think he will be asked more about that today. lastly, the only other thing that is a contentious decision is a policy of testing residents after they got released from hospital going back to care homes and testing asymptomatic patients and testing asymptomatic patients and residents and workers in care homes. that is something that many of the families want more clarity on and i think for them it will be there planning before the pandemic as well. figs there planning before the pandemic as well. �* , there planning before the pandemic as well. ~ , ., there planning before the pandemic as well. �* , ,, ., , ., , as well. as you mention, questions surround the _ as well. as you mention, questions surround the government's - as well. as you mention, questions | surround the government's planning before and after the pandemic. how did wales differfrom

before and after the pandemic. how did wales differ from the rest of the uk in terms of how the government there handled the coronavirus pandemic? i government there handled the coronavirus pandemic?- government there handled the coronavirus pandemic? i think as time wore _ coronavirus pandemic? i think as time were on _ coronavirus pandemic? i think as time were on i — coronavirus pandemic? i think as time wore on i think _ coronavirus pandemic? i think as time wore on i think it _ coronavirus pandemic? i think as time wore on i think it was - coronavirus pandemic? i think as time wore on i think it was clear| time wore on i think it was clear that mark drakeford was taking a more cautious approach to the release of restrictions and locked out. i remember certainly business restrictions were lasting longer in wales, there were more restrictions on people meeting in wales, going on for longer than in england so i think there will be questions about, why would have been done here when it was not being done in other parts of the uk? open questions, because everywhere did things slightly differently but i think where he may get more criticism from some aspects of society is just before the first

lockdown was put in place in 2020, was the planning there really? was the proper planning in place for this type of pandemic? so that is something he will be asked about. i believe mark drakeford is just about to start giving evidence. we believe mark drakeford is “ust about to start giving evidence._ to start giving evidence. we have not back to start giving evidence. we have got back displayed. _ to start giving evidence. we have got back displayed. you - to start giving evidence. we have got back displayed. you signed . to start giving evidence. we have i got back displayed. you signed that statement on the 13th of december last yeah _ statement on the 13th of december last year. are the contents of that statement — last year. are the contents of that statement to? they are. you provided a witness _ statement to? they are. you provided a witness statement. that has been signed _ a witness statement. that has been signed in _ a witness statement. that has been signed in the usual way with a declaration of truth and you also gave _ declaration of truth and you also gave evidence in module one and a transcript _ gave evidence in module one and a transcript is — gave evidence in module one and a transcript is available on the inquiry— transcript is available on the inquiry website and you've also provided — inquiry website and you've also provided two further witness statements for module two. if we can identify— statements for module two. if we can identify those. the first is. and then— identify those. the first is. and then the — identify those. the first is. and then the second. and those two have

been signed with statements of truth _ been signed with statements of truth mr— been signed with statements of truth. mr drake said, we are grateful— truth. mr drake said, we are grateful for the provision of those statements and your assistance to date _ statements and your assistance to date if _ statements and your assistance to date if we — statements and your assistance to date. if we can deal first with your background and career. it is very well known — background and career. it is very well known you were the first minister— well known you were the first minister of wales. you have been so since _ minister of wales. you have been so since december 2018. before entering politics— since december 2018. before entering politics you have worked as a probation _ politics you have worked as a probation officer, youthjustice worker— probation officer, youthjustice worker under barnardos project leader~ — worker under barnardos project leader. between 1991 and 1995 you've lectured _ leader. between 1991 and 1995 you've lectured in _ leader. between 1991 and 1995 you've lectured in applied social studies at the _ lectured in applied social studies at the university college of swansea, now swansea university and that you _ swansea, now swansea university and that you moved to what is now cardiff — that you moved to what is now cardiff university as a lecturer and professor~ — cardiff university as a lecturer and professor. alongside your university lecturer— professor. alongside your university lecturer and kew became a special

adviser— lecturer and kew became a special adviser on— lecturer and kew became a special adviser on health and social policy in 2000 _ adviser on health and social policy in 2000 and served as the first minister— in 2000 and served as the first minister political office. in 2013 q appointed a minister for health and social— appointed a minister for health and social services, a post you hold until— social services, a post you hold until may— social services, a post you hold until may 2016 when you became cabinet _ until may 2016 when you became cabinet secretary for financial tocat — cabinet secretary for financial local government. you became first minister— local government. you became first minister and leader of welsh labour in 2010 _ minister and leader of welsh labour in 2010 is_ minister and leader of welsh labour in 2018. , ., ., . minister and leader of welsh labour in 2018-— that - in 2018. is that all correct? that is all correct. _ in 2018. is that all correct? that is all correct. although - in 2018. is that all correct? that is all correct. although you - is all correct. although you announced on the 13th of last year that you _ announced on the 13th of last year that you would stand down as first minister— that you would stand down as first minister he remained until your successor— minister he remained until your successor is elected. correct. your experience — successor is elected. correct. your experience is— successor is elected. correct. your experience is important for a number of areas _ experience is important for a number of areas in _ experience is important for a number of areas in this module because in practice _ of areas in this module because in practice he — of areas in this module because in practice he worked in side the welsh government, including the first

minister's — government, including the first minister's office... you have also been _ minister's office... you have also been health— minister's office... you have also been health minister and minister for locat— been health minister and minister for local government and so very famitiar— for local government and so very familiar with the work of the nhs and locat— familiar with the work of the nhs and local government in wales. you have also— and local government in wales. you have also been finance minister and therefore _ have also been finance minister and therefore negotiated the current funding — therefore negotiated the current funding regime in wales and therefore understand complex issues of government and into government finance _ of government and into government finance and obviously last but by no means _ finance and obviously last but by no means least as first minister us head _ means least as first minister us head of— means least as first minister us head of the welsh government and so had overall— head of the welsh government and so had overall response to default wates's— had overall response to default wales's pandemic response and its engagement with the uk government and other— engagement with the uk government and other devolved administrations. therefore _ and other devolved administrations. therefore there is much to cover this morning and this afternoon. if i can— this morning and this afternoon. if i can start — this morning and this afternoon. if i can start please with some questions about your role as first minister— questions about your role as first minister and the decision—making structures— minister and the decision—making structures but within the welsh

government. you say at paragraph 14 of your— government. you say at paragraph 14 of your witness statement that you are primarily responsible for the formulation, development and presentation of welsh government policy— presentation of welsh government policy and you say this did not change — policy and you say this did not change during the pandemic. is that riuht? that change during the pandemic. is that right? that would _ change during the pandemic. is that right? that would be _ change during the pandemic. is that right? that would be right. - change during the pandemic. is that right? that would be right. as - change during the pandemic. is that right? that would be right. as first| right? that would be right. as first minister hugh _ right? that would be right. as first minister hugh chaired _ right? that would be right. as first minister hugh chaired the - right? that would be right. as first minister hugh chaired the welsh i minister hugh chaired the welsh government cabinet. you describe in your witness — government cabinet. you describe in your witness statement the cabinet as the _ your witness statement the cabinet as the court decision makers and you say that— as the court decision makers and you say that although the practicalities ministerial engagement change with remote _ ministerial engagement change with remote working, the essence of collective — remote working, the essence of collective decision—making remained intact _ collective decision—making remained intact throughout the pandemic. my intact throughout the pandemic. approach as intact throughout the pandemic. m approach as first minister intact throughout the pandemic. m1 approach as first minister was always to make sure that the decisions we arrived at prior to and during the pandemic where the collective decisions of the whole of the cabinet. tote collective decisions of the whole of the cabinet-—

the cabinet. we will look at those articular the cabinet. we will look at those particular decisions _ the cabinet. we will look at those particular decisions in _ the cabinet. we will look at those particular decisions in greater - particular decisions in greater detail— particular decisions in greater detail later this morning and this afternoon — detail later this morning and this afternoon but broadly speaking, so we know _ afternoon but broadly speaking, so we know that light of the land and how you _ we know that light of the land and how you approach these issues, were all the _ how you approach these issues, were all the momentous decisions, decisions _ all the momentous decisions, decisions for example to impose lockdown— decisions for example to impose lockdown is, social distancing and to one. _ lockdown is, social distancing and to one, where decisions were made in practice _ to one, where decisions were made in practice by— to one, where decisions were made in practice by the welsh cabinet decisions made by q and informed and endorsed _ decisions made by q and informed and endorsed later by cabinet. the decisions were _ endorsed later by cabinet. tue: decisions were always the endorsed later by cabinet. ti2 decisions were always the decisions of the cabinet, either made directly in the cabinet and almost always in that way, occasionally and particularly in the belly early days they were made drawing on the clear knowledge of what the cabinet would have decided because of prior discussion. it was made sometimes in

a cobra meeting. discussion. it was made sometimes in a cobra meeting-— a cobra meeting. although you exlained a cobra meeting. although you exolained the _ a cobra meeting. although you explained the collective - a cobra meeting. although you . explained the collective decisions, individuat— explained the collective decisions, individual ministers were required to make _ individual ministers were required to make decisions within their own portfolio _ to make decisions within their own portfolio responsibilities and you make _ portfolio responsibilities and you make a _ portfolio responsibilities and you make a point, paragraph 39 of your witness _ make a point, paragraph 39 of your witness statement, that you expect ministers _ witness statement, that you expect ministers to exercise portfolio responsible it to themselves, save where _ responsible it to themselves, save where a _ responsible it to themselves, save where a decision requires a cross government set up resolutions and secondly— government set up resolutions and secondly the issues are so significant that it needs to be elevated. perhapsjust illustrate elevated. perhaps just illustrate the elevated. perhapsjust illustrate the point, the closing and reopening of education settings during the pandemic, is that a decision for the minister— pandemic, is that a decision for the minister for— pandemic, is that a decision for the minister for education i would not have _ minister for education i would not have been— minister for education i would not have been a decision for the cabinet? _ have been a decision for the cabinet? | have been a decision for the cabinet? ., have been a decision for the cabinet? ~' . , ., , cabinet? i think the decision itself rests with the _ cabinet? i think the decision itself rests with the minister _ cabinet? i think the decision itself

rests with the minister but - cabinet? i think the decision itself rests with the minister but given l rests with the minister but given the significant of that decision, i it would only ever be made in the full knowledge of what cabinet colleagues would have contributed to that decision so it is made by the minister but made in the context of discussion across the whole of the ministerial team.— ministerial team. although the inui ministerial team. although the inquiry understands _ ministerial team. although the inquiry understands there - ministerial team. although the j inquiry understands there were certain— inquiry understands there were certain structural changes within the government during the pandemic, for example the creation of a director—general for covid, in certain— director—general for covid, in certain people move positions, in terms _ certain people move positions, in terms of— certain people move positions, in terms of who made the key decisions, am i right— terms of who made the key decisions, am i right that remains always the welsh _ am i right that remains always the welsh cabinet as you explained with you acting _ welsh cabinet as you explained with you acting first among equals and then individual ministers went decision— then individual ministers went decision fell within the portfolio? yes. decision fell within the portfolio? yes to _ decision fell within the portfolio? yes. to what extent do you accept

personal— yes. to what extent do you accept personal responsible tea for the decisions — personal responsible tea for the decisions taken during the pandemic as opposed to accepting it on behalf of your— as opposed to accepting it on behalf of your administration? as opposed to accepting it on behalf of youradministration? | as opposed to accepting it on behalf of your administration?— of your administration? i accept resoonsibility — of your administration? i accept responsibility myself _ of your administration? i accept responsibility myself for - of your administration? i accept responsibility myself for all - of your administration? i accept responsibility myself for all the | of your administration? i accept i responsibility myself for all the be made. in the end i am the first minister of the government and i am very firm believer in what is called distributed leadership rather than hierarchical leadership. in the end, the decisions that were made in the cabinet are signed off by me and in that time responsible. let cabinet are signed off by me and in that time responsible.— that time responsible. let next exlore that time responsible. let next exolore some _ that time responsible. let next explore some of— that time responsible. let next explore some of the _ that time responsible. let next explore some of the legal, - explore some of the legal, technical, structural decisions have presented — technical, structural decisions have presented themselves when liaising and dealing with the uk government and dealing with the uk government and the _ and dealing with the uk government and the other devolved administrations during the pandemic. the inguiry— administrations during the pandemic. the inquiry understands that there was an— the inquiry understands that there was an intergovernmental relations review_ was an intergovernmental relations review established in march 2018 which _ review established in march 2018 which ended injanuary review established in march 2018 which ended in january 2022 and reported — which ended in january 2022 and reported then. the idea behind that

review_ reported then. the idea behind that review was— reported then. the idea behind that review was to improve intergovernmental restrictions and the ways— intergovernmental restrictions and the ways of working and we understand that review has led to a new architecture for intergovernmental working which i will come — intergovernmental working which i will come to in due course. i will start— will come to in due course. i will start with — will come to in due course. i will start with the arrangements for intergovernmental relations as they stood _ intergovernmental relations as they stood at _ intergovernmental relations as they stood at the start of the pandemic. starting _ stood at the start of the pandemic. starting point is the memorandum of understanding, and we have that here _ understanding, and we have that here as — understanding, and we have that here. as we can see, the memorandum was first— here. as we can see, the memorandum was first agreed in 2001 but reviewed periodically and this is dated _ reviewed periodically and this is dated october 2013. if we can look at page _ dated october 2013. if we can look at page nine, paragraph 23. thank you _ at page nine, paragraph 23. thank you 0ver— at page nine, paragraph 23. thank you. overthe page. this at page nine, paragraph 23. thank you. over the page. this recognises that although most contact between the four— that although most contact between the four nation should be carried out at _ the four nation should be carried out at a — the four nation should be carried out at a bilateral, multilateral basis — out at a bilateral, multilateral basis between departments are nevertheless needs to be some central— nevertheless needs to be some central coordination of the overall relationship and therefore the four nations— relationship and therefore the four nations agreed to participate in what _ nations agreed to participate in

what is — nations agreed to participate in what is known as a joint ministerial committee. — what is known as a joint ministerial committee, the gmc. ——j what is known as a joint ministerial committee, the gmc. —— j mc. if we can look— committee, the gmc. —— j mc. if we can look at— committee, the gmc. —— j mc. if we can look at page 12. we can see it was agreed — can look at page 12. we can see it was agreed that plenary meetings were to _ was agreed that plenary meetings were to be held at least once a year and the _ were to be held at least once a year and the prime minister would chair the meeting and then the scottish welsh _ the meeting and then the scottish welsh first ministers together with colleagues, the deputy first minister and territorial secretaries of state _ minister and territorial secretaries of state. the inquiry heard evidence prior to _ of state. the inquiry heard evidence prior to 2019j mc meetings will generally take place as was envisaged in this. is that your understanding? i envisaged in this. is that your understanding?— envisaged in this. is that your understandin: ? . , ., understanding? i had been involved for so [on understanding? i had been involved for so long i— understanding? i had been involved for so long i have _ understanding? i had been involved for so long i have taken _ understanding? i had been involved for so long i have taken part - understanding? i had been involved for so long i have taken part in - for so long i have taken part in different capacities in meetings of the sword with every prime minister since devolution other than david cameron so i started attending these meetings when tony blair was prime minister, continued under gordon brown and then with mrs may and her

successor. actually they would sometimes happen more frequently than that and beneath their first minister and prime minister gmcs they were very active gmcs that brought people together around a particular topic. william hague put a great deal of energy into their jmc europe which brought ministers together in advance of key meetings of the european council so underneath a headline there isjmcs and i participated in those particularly around brexit. there was the jmc _ particularly around brexit. there was the jmc meeting _ particularly around brexit. there was the jmc meeting in - particularly around brexit. there was the jmc meeting in 2018, i particularly around brexit. there l was the jmc meeting in 2018, the first you — was the jmc meeting in 2018, the first you attended as first minister, attended by theresa may, first minister of scotland and then head of— first minister of scotland and then head of the northern ireland civil service _ head of the northern ireland civil service in— head of the northern ireland civil service in the absence of the northern— service in the absence of the northern ireland executive. that was the last— northern ireland executive. that was the lastjmc plenary northern ireland executive. that was the last jmc plenary session northern ireland executive. that was the lastjmc plenary session before theresa _ the lastjmc plenary session before theresa may designed in may 2019 and am i right— theresa may designed in may 2019 and am i right that there were nojmc

plenary— am i right that there were nojmc plenary meeting throughout the pandemic? none. mrjohnson, the former— pandemic? none. mrjohnson, the former prime minister, said in the inguiry— former prime minister, said in the inquiry that— former prime minister, said in the inquiry that he chose not to meet with the — inquiry that he chose not to meet with the first minister of the devolved administrations because in his view— devolved administrations because in his view that would have been optically— his view that would have been optically drunk for fear this would -ive optically drunk for fear this would give a _ optically drunk for fear this would give a false impression that the uk was a _ give a false impression that the uk was a federal state. what is your reaction — was a federal state. what is your reaction to— was a federal state. what is your reaction to that statement? | was a federal state. what is your reaction to that statement? i think i shared the _ reaction to that statement? i think i shared the reaction _ reaction to that statement? i think i shared the reaction of _ reaction to that statement? i think i shared the reaction of professor. i shared the reaction of professor henderson who said in her written statement and oral evidence that was one of the most extraordinary statement she come across in a very long career of academic study in these matters. as you know, i wrote very regularly to the prime minister asking for a predictable series of meetings between the heads of the

four nations. it had never occurred to me until i read that the prime minister had turned those requests down, not on practical grounds, which i could understand, these are very busy times and he was a very busy man, but as a matter of policy he had decided not to meet. that did seem to me to be an extraordinary decision. d0 seem to me to be an extraordinary decision. , ., seem to me to be an extraordinary decision. i. _, , seem to me to be an extraordinary decision. , ., _, , ., seem to me to be an extraordinary decision. i. _, , ., ~ decision. do you consider that mr johnson's deliberately _ decision. do you consider that mr johnson's deliberately choice - decision. do you consider that mr johnson's deliberately choice to l decision. do you consider that mr. johnson's deliberately choice to not meet _ johnson's deliberately choice to not meet with— johnson's deliberately choice to not meet with the devolved administrations had an impact on the bus government's response to the pandemic? — bus government's response to the pandemic? | bus government's response to the andemic? , pandemic? i believe it did. i believe there _ pandemic? i believe it did. i believe there are _ pandemic? i believe it did. i believe there are a - pandemic? i believe it did. i believe there are a series i pandemic? i believe it did. i believe there are a series ofj believe there are a series of reasons why it would have been preferable to have held, not... i was never asking for meetings happening every week. to my mind, at

the height of the pandemic, had we met once in a three week cycle that would have been sufficient but i think there were a number of purposes that would have been properly discharged at a meeting. i think it would, to use a prime minister's term, had been optically important for people in wales and other parts of the united kingdom to see the heads of their nations coming together at a moment of such national peril. i think if we had not reached uniform decisions by coming together, we would have reached joint decisions. so the fact you are in the same room, you might

not come to a particular conclusion but you would all know what everybody else was deciding and i think that would have strengthened arrangements. and even if you hadn't managed to do that, i always thought the primary reason for coming together was that you would simply understand better what other leaders of their nations were facing in their own areas of responsibility, how they were proposing to address those challenges, the repertoire of different policy levers they may have wished to use, and as a result, for example i know more about what the first minister of northern ireland was facing and what she was thinking of doing, it would have

informed my decisions and those would have been better decisions as a result of having an insight into what other people in a similar position were facing. finally, i think regularity of meetings improves trust and in a pandemic when things are moving so quickly and sometimes with such difficult moments, trust is valuable commodity. when you look at the meetings of michael gove, we've met for six weeks, you can see how that conversation is different, how it flows more freely, how people are franker with one another because he had become used to being in each others company and having those sorts of discussions and i felt that had we been able to do that at the prime ministerial and first ministerial level we would have had

greater trust in that relationship and that would have been a good thing. in and that would have been a good thin. . , , . and that would have been a good thin. . ., and that would have been a good thin._ . ' and that would have been a good thing. in the absence ofjmc plenary meetins, thing. in the absence ofjmc plenary meetings, covert _ thing. in the absence ofjmc plenary meetings, covert was _ thing. in the absence ofjmc plenary meetings, covert was the _ thing. in the absence ofjmc plenary meetings, covert was the highest i meetings, covert was the highest form _ meetings, covert was the highest form for— meetings, covert was the highest form for interaction between the four uk— form for interaction between the four uk governments and we will come in to specific— four uk governments and we will come in to specific cobra meetings in due course _ in to specific cobra meetings in due course but — in to specific cobra meetings in due course but i — in to specific cobra meetings in due course but i want to ask you general questions _ course but i want to ask you general questions about the welsh government's involvement in cobra. cobra _ government's involvement in cobra. cobra meetings controlled by the uk government, meaning the uk government, meaning the uk government decides when they are called _ government decides when they are called on _ government decides when they are called on whether or not the devolved administrations are to be involved _ devolved administrations are to be involved. you make a point to paragraph _ involved. you make a point to paragraph 19 of your module two witness — paragraph 19 of your module two witness statement that the production of papers used are cobra meetings _ production of papers used are cobra meetings rest exclusively with the uk government. in practice is meant you did _ uk government. in practice is meant you did not _ uk government. in practice is meant you did not see cobra meetings until shortly— you did not see cobra meetings until shortly before their meetings took place _ shortly before their meetings took place did — shortly before their meetings took place. did you feel that you and other— place. did you feel that you and other welsh representatives at cobra meetings _ other welsh representatives at cobra meetings were placed at a disadvantage as a result? i

meetings were placed at a disadvantage as a result? i want to acknowledge _ disadvantage as a result? i want to acknowledge first _ disadvantage as a result? i want to acknowledge first of _ disadvantage as a result? i want to acknowledge first of all _ disadvantage as a result? i want to acknowledge first of all that - disadvantage as a result? i want to acknowledge first of all that at - acknowledge first of all that at this point everybody is working under the most enormous pressure. and there is very little luxury of time for the production of papers or any other preparation for a meeting but it would undoubtedly have been the case in practice it when you arrived at a meeting, i would be the only welsh voice often at that table, uk ministers would already have had a discussion and access to the information that i might have seen, often less than 20 minutes before the meeting began. in that since you are at a disadvantage because you are having to try and grapple very quickly with information that others have had longer to absorb and think about. the inquiry heard evidence in modules— the inquiry heard evidence in modules two and two a that concerns were expressed by some within the uk government, perhaps most vocally by dominic— government, perhaps most vocally by dominic cummings about including the devolved _ dominic cummings about including the devolved administrations in cobra. we have _ devolved administrations in cobra. we have seen mr cummings's witness

statement, _ we have seen mr cummings's witness statement, we are looking at the cobra _ statement, we are looking at the cobra meetings, sturgeon... they became _ cobra meetings, sturgeon... they became more scripted, formulaic and pointless _ became more scripted, formulaic and pointless. the suggestion obviously being _ pointless. the suggestion obviously being that there couldn't be an open discussion— being that there couldn't be an open discussion at cobra when the devolved _ discussion at cobra when the devolved administrations were present— devolved administrations were present as things will be leaked to the press — present as things will be leaked to the press. where you aware at the time _ the press. where you aware at the time that— the press. where you aware at the time that there were these concerns being _ time that there were these concerns being expressed within the uk government? | being expressed within the uk government?— being expressed within the uk government? ., ., , ., ., government? i would have been aware of anxieties in — government? i would have been aware of anxieties in the _ government? i would have been aware of anxieties in the uk _ government? i would have been aware of anxieties in the uk government - of anxieties in the uk government but i would also have known that they could not have pointed to a single example. i set injmc after jmc with representatives of the scottish government, sometimes talking about very sensitive matters indeedin talking about very sensitive matters indeed in relation to brexit and there was not a single example of there was not a single example of the united kingdom could have pointed to, of either that welsh or scottish government to put into the public domain information that had been shared with us on a confidential basis. so while i was aware of and to an extent could understand anxieties, i don't think

there was evidential basis for them. on the 13th of march mark sedwill, then cabinet secretary, wrote to the then cabinet secretary, wrote to the then prime — then cabinet secretary, wrote to the then prime minister and we can see that letter— then prime minister and we can see that letter here. if we could look at page — that letter here. if we could look at page two, fourth paragraph. what is being _ at page two, fourth paragraph. what is being proposed to the prime minister— is being proposed to the prime minister is setting up a new rhythm of meetings, including a daily 9am prime _ of meetings, including a daily 9am prime minister meeting with a small group _ prime minister meeting with a small group of— prime minister meeting with a small group of ministers and key advisers. if we can _ group of ministers and key advisers. if we can go — group of ministers and key advisers. if we can go over to paragraph seven struggling _ if we can go over to paragraph seven struggling pages two and three. you will also _ struggling pages two and three. you will also need to decide how you want _ will also need to decide how you want to— will also need to decide how you want to involve the devolved administrations instead of inviting them _ administrations instead of inviting them to— administrations instead of inviting them to your night air meetings i propose — them to your night air meetings i propose continuing to include them in cobra _ propose continuing to include them in cobra as— propose continuing to include them in cobra as public service delivery is where — in cobra as public service delivery is where the main challenges would be and _ is where the main challenges would be and also recommend a regular meeting — be and also recommend a regular meeting with first minister is either— meeting with first minister is either chaired by you are cdl, the chancellor— either chaired by you are cdl, the chancellor duchy of lancashire, to update _ chancellor duchy of lancashire, to update them on the response. where

you aware _ update them on the response. where you aware of this proposal at the time? _ you aware of this proposal at the time? this— you aware of this proposal at the time? this is the 13th of march. no. during _ time? this is the 13th of march. no. during the _ time? this is the 13th of march. no. during the pandemic you have already spoken— during the pandemic you have already spoken about the calls you had with michael— spoken about the calls you had with michael gove and the fact you were an advocate for a reliable, regular pattern _ an advocate for a reliable, regular pattern of— an advocate for a reliable, regular pattern of contact between the four nations~ _ pattern of contact between the four nations. they started injune 2020 and you _ nations. they started injune 2020 and you describe in your evidence and you describe in your evidence and alluded to it in your oral evidence _ and alluded to it in your oral evidence this morning that those meetings — evidence this morning that those meetings worked well. you say in your written evidence, because all four participants came to the meeting _ four participants came to the meeting looking to share information, solve problems and work together— information, solve problems and work together on— information, solve problems and work together on agendas of common concern — together on agendas of common concern and you go on to say, we were _ concern and you go on to say, we were not— concern and you go on to say, we were not turning up to be told what had already been decided whether we liked it _ had already been decided whether we liked it or— had already been decided whether we liked it or not. is that alluding to how you — liked it or not. is that alluding to how you considered cobra to have operated? — how you considered cobra to have 0 erated? ., how you considered cobra to have oerated? ., ., �* , ., ., operated? that wouldn't be a fair characteristic _ operated? that wouldn't be a fair characteristic of _ operated? that wouldn't be a fair characteristic of the _ operated? that wouldn't be a fair characteristic of the whole - operated? that wouldn't be a fair characteristic of the whole of - operated? that wouldn't be a fair i characteristic of the whole of cobra because i took part in cobra debates which were genuine debate and were a variety of user can best but i

definitely took part in cobra meetings where the decision had already been made in advance of the meeting and we were essentially involved in order to be told what the outcome would be. but that wouldn't be the whole story. you say that mr goh — wouldn't be the whole story. you say that mr goh is _ wouldn't be the whole story. you say that mr goh is a _ wouldn't be the whole story. you say that mr goh is a skilful— wouldn't be the whole story. you say that mr goh is a skilful lead - that mr goh is a skilful lead minister— that mr goh is a skilful lead minister but you say he was a centre forward _ minister but you say he was a centre forward without our team lined up behind _ forward without our team lined up behind him and where the manager was largely— behind him and where the manager was largely absent —— michael gove. can you e>

would have, a message from the prime minister to a cabinet minister is i would like this to happen is infect an instruction. michael gove would have to say, what would you think? it is a good idea? he is a skilful persuader but that is what he is and thatis persuader but that is what he is and that is what i meant. there was a limit to the extent to which he was able to discharge the remit of leading a formation approach across the uk government.— leading a formation approach across the uk government. would it be right to sa that the uk government. would it be right to say that the _ the uk government. would it be right to say that the calls _ the uk government. would it be right to say that the calls with _ the uk government. would it be right to say that the calls with michael - to say that the calls with michael gove _ to say that the calls with michael gove, whilst useful, were not an adequate — gove, whilst useful, were not an adequate replacement for meetings with the _ adequate replacement for meetings with the first ministers and the

prime — with the first ministers and the prime minister during the pandemic? they needed to be supplemented by some additional regularity of contact between first ministers. i wouldn't expect to meet the prime minister every week and meeting michael gove every week were certainly useful but at certain points in that weekly cycle and meeting with a prime minister would have allowed that head of government impact to have been brought to bear. turning briefly to the secretary of state _ turning briefly to the secretary of state for — turning briefly to the secretary of state for wales, who was simon hart, who the _ state for wales, who was simon hart, who the inquiry heard from from last week, _ who the inquiry heard from from last week, you _ who the inquiry heard from from last week, you have made some quite pointed _ week, you have made some quite pointed criticisms of the road played — pointed criticisms of the road played by mr hart during the pandemic. you described him as being peripheral— pandemic. you described him as being peripheral to your interaction with

the uk _ peripheral to your interaction with the uk government and go on to say that the _ the uk government and go on to say that the secretary of state for wales — that the secretary of state for wales perceived his role in scrutinising the welsh government, constantly— scrutinising the welsh government, constantly seeking explanations for policy _ constantly seeking explanations for policy differences are making inappropriate requests to be inserted _ inappropriate requests to be inserted into devolved decision—making structures and other groups _ decision—making structures and other groups. when those criticisms were put to— groups. when those criticisms were put to the _ groups. when those criticisms were put to the secretary of state last week, _ put to the secretary of state last week, he — put to the secretary of state last week, he said that scrutinising and interrogating decisions of the welsh government was very much part of his role and _ government was very much part of his role and that _ government was very much part of his role and that effectively the welsh government should have been prepared for such— government should have been prepared for such scrutiny. do you agree and do you _ for such scrutiny. do you agree and do you have — for such scrutiny. do you agree and do you have comments on that evidence? _ do you have comments on that evidence? gf do you have comments on that evidence?— do you have comments on that evidence? of course the welsh government — evidence? of course the welsh government must _ evidence? of course the welsh government must be _ evidence? of course the welsh government must be open - evidence? of course the welsh government must be open to l evidence? of course the welsh - government must be open to scrutiny, when the welsh government is scrutinised by the parliament of wales, by the synod directly elected by the people of wales to discharge that's response ability. whereas the secretary is concerned, to be

evenhanded as i can, where he's discharge his responsibilities at work is to be discharge he did so effectively so during the progress of the pandemic there were points when the welsh government sought the assistance of military authorities and there is a process, military assistance to civil authorities. the secretary of state for wales has a pommel part to play in that process and he always did it perfectly satisfactorily. he was always a where he was needed, always move the process along by discharging his responsibilities so where he had a role to play, i have got no complaints about what he did. my difficulty was particularly in the early days with frankly little else to do the secretary of state filled his days by writing letters to me asking me about the welsh government's responsibilities. and the risk was that he was beginning to get in the way of our ability to do the things we needed to do. at

one point i had to write to him and explained that i couldn't give on giving a priority to buy scarce officials and two time with so many other things to do to reply to correspondence from him about things for which he had no responsibility and for which i am accountable not to the secretary of state for wales at all, but at the parliament of the welsh people. {line at all, but at the parliament of the welsh people-— welsh people. one of the roles of the secretary _ welsh people. one of the roles of the secretary of _ welsh people. one of the roles of the secretary of state _ welsh people. one of the roles of the secretary of state for - welsh people. one of the roles of the secretary of state for wales i welsh people. one of the roles ofj the secretary of state for wales is to act _ the secretary of state for wales is to act as _ the secretary of state for wales is to act as a — the secretary of state for wales is to act as a voice for wales within the uk _ to act as a voice for wales within the uk cabinet. did you consider that mr— the uk cabinet. did you consider that mr hart acted as a voice for the welsh — that mr hart acted as a voice for the welsh government during the pandemic? uk the welsh government during the andemic? .., , the welsh government during the andemic? .. , ., ,., pandemic? uk cabinet have some hierarchical— pandemic? uk cabinet have some hierarchical implications - pandemic? uk cabinet have some hierarchical implications within i hierarchical implications within them and the secretary of state for wales is not to be found near the top half of that hierarchy. i am afraid i would say that the secretary of state for wales was a far more the voice of the uk government in wales rather than the voice of wales in the uk cabinet. this exceeds the treaty and all four nations have decided to work under these arrangements. use a paragraph

201 of your module to witness statement, you make the point that the new intergovernmental arrangements have never been fully implemented and in any event you say they need to be animated by the necessary cooperative spirit for them to take the strain of responding to a prolonged and profound emergency. my question is simply this. in the event of a future pandemic do you believe that these new arrangements for intergovernmental working will be effective? ~ ., , intergovernmental working will be effective? ~' , ., effective? well, i think they would be more effective _ effective? well, i think they would be more effective than _ effective? well, i think they would be more effective than the - effective? well, i think they would be more effective than the ones i effective? well, i think they would | be more effective than the ones we had to— be more effective than the ones we had to rely— be more effective than the ones we had to rely on during the pandemic. they are _ had to rely on during the pandemic. they are still very new, they are still not — they are still very new, they are still not fully tested. the ministerial committee, the top to hear of— ministerial committee, the top to hear of this, did not meet at all in 2023, _ hear of this, did not meet at all in 2023, hasn't— hear of this, did not meet at all in 2023, hasn't met now for 18 months. partly— 2023, hasn't met now for 18 months. partly that _ 2023, hasn't met now for 18 months. partly that is — 2023, hasn't met now for 18 months. partly that is because there has not been _ partly that is because there has not been an— partly that is because there has not been an executive in northern ireland — been an executive in northern ireland there are sensible reasons. that is— ireland there are sensible reasons. that is partly what i meant by