the united kingdom. i a believer in the united kingdom. i lead a _ a believer in the united kingdom. i lead a government that wants the united _ lead a government that wants the united kingdom to succeed and faces considerable political opposition from _ considerable political opposition from people who believe that wales's future _ from people who believe that wales's future will _ from people who believe that wales's future will be better separated from the united kingdom. i had no motivation of any sort to make decisions — motivation of any sort to make decisions for the sake of being different. i think my effort through the whole — different. i think my effort through the whole pandemic was to try to find better ways of coming together to make _ find better ways of coming together to make better informed decisions. i don't _ to make better informed decisions. i don't think— to make better informed decisions. i don't think the prime minister or the secretary of state could offer you a _ the secretary of state could offer you a single specific instance to justify— you a single specific instance to justify the charges that they have made _ justify the charges that they have made. we justify the charges that they have made. ~ ., ., ._ ., made. we will move away from legislation. _ made. we will move away from legislation, devolution, - made. we will move away from - legislation, devolution, divergence, and ask you some questions about the welsh government's initial response in the early months of january to march 2020. you see in your evidence that although you were aware of covid in january and that although you were aware of covid injanuary and february, it was not a priority of the welsh

government, and you go on to say that as every 2020 moved on, responding to the extreme and adverse weather conditions that caused widespread and significant flooding throughout wales was the most urgent matter facing the government. it wasn't until march that covid moved up the priority list until it became the most significant matter. is that a fair characterisation of the position? the early months of 2020 are dominated from a welsh garment's perspective by the risks of a no-deat_ perspective by the risks of a no—deal brexit, which was imminent, by no—deal brexit, which was imminent, tty winter— no—deal brexit, which was imminent, by winter pressures in the health service, — by winter pressures in the health service, which are always at their most _ service, which are always at their most pressing in earlyjanuary, inner— most pressing in earlyjanuary, inner anxiety to pass a budget through— inner anxiety to pass a budget through the senedd, we are a government of a very slim majority and you _ government of a very slim majority and you have got to pass a budget. and ity— and you have got to pass a budget. and by the — and you have got to pass a budget. and by the first part of february, we are _ and by the first part of february, we are dealing with very significant, 40—year adverse weather

events— significant, 40—year adverse weather events affect thousands of people. so those _ events affect thousands of people. so those are the front of desk preoccupations during those early weeks _ preoccupations during those early weeks it— preoccupations during those early weeks. it is not to say, of course, that— weeks. it is not to say, of course, that we _ weeks. it is not to say, of course, that we are — weeks. it is not to say, of course, that we are not aware of what is happening — that we are not aware of what is happening elsewhere in the world or keeping _ happening elsewhere in the world or keeping ourselves properly informed about— keeping ourselves properly informed about it _ keeping ourselves properly informed about it. my colleague vaughan gethihg — about it. my colleague vaughan gething start issuing weekly statements to the senedd on the 24th ofjanuary. _ statements to the senedd on the 24th ofjanuary, he starts issuing daily updates — ofjanuary, he starts issuing daily updates to — ofjanuary, he starts issuing daily updates to ministerial colleagues on the 28th— updates to ministerial colleagues on the 28th of february. january, sorry — the 28th of february. january, sorry the _ the 28th of february. january, sorry. the 24th and 28th ofjanuary. before _ sorry. the 24th and 28th ofjanuary. before february begins, we are already— before february begins, we are already alert and engaged in making sure we _ already alert and engaged in making sure we are as well—informed as we can be _ sure we are as well—informed as we can be on— sure we are as well—informed as we can be on what is happening elsewhere. at that point, it is happening elsewhere. there is not a single _ happening elsewhere. there is not a single case — happening elsewhere. there is not a single case in wales, nothing you could _ single case in wales, nothing you could point to which is directly affecting — could point to which is directly affecting the welsh population. gn

affecting the welsh population. on the affecting the welsh population. the 24th affecting the welsh population. q? the 24th ofjanuary, you were the 24th of january, you were advised by doctor atherton that there was a significant risk of the virus arriving in wales. is that right? virus arriving in wales. is that riuht? , virus arriving in wales. is that right?- despite _ virus arriving in wales. is that right?- despite that - virus arriving in wales. is that right? yes. despite that warning on the 24th ofjanuary, covid is not discussed by the welsh cabinet until the 25th of february. given that cabinet is charged with making, as we have discussed, the key decisions relating to pandemic response, is it surprising for there to have been no discussion for more than a month after you were given that warning by the chief medical officer about a significant risk of the virus arriving in wales? i significant risk of the virus arriving in wales?- significant risk of the virus arriving in wales? i think if i could--- _ arriving in wales? i think if i could... it — arriving in wales? i think if i could... it is _ arriving in wales? i think if i could... it is important - arriving in wales? i think if i could... it is important to i arriving in wales? i think if i - could... it is important to provide a small— could... it is important to provide a small amount of context here. the welsh _ a small amount of context here. the welsh government is a very small government. we have nine cabinet ministers — government. we have nine cabinet ministers. we all work with our offices — ministers. we all work with our offices next door to one another. it

is very. _ offices next door to one another. it is very. very— offices next door to one another. it is very, very different to whitehall where _ is very, very different to whitehall where ministers are scattered across a wide _ where ministers are scattered across a wide geography, and the only time they come _ a wide geography, and the only time they come together as when they are in the _ they come together as when they are in the cabinet room. the fact that there _ in the cabinet room. the fact that there was— in the cabinet room. the fact that there was no discussion at cabinet until the _ there was no discussion at cabinet until the 25th of february should not be _ until the 25th of february should not be read at all as there being no discussion— not be read at all as there being no discussion between cabinet colleagues because there was a great deal of— colleagues because there was a great deal of discussion between cabinet colleagues in the way that we would normally— colleagues in the way that we would normally transact business. i would have spoken directly to vaughan gething — have spoken directly to vaughan gething after all the cobra meetings that he _ gething after all the cobra meetings that he had discussed, and he would have been— that he had discussed, and he would have been involved in other discussions with cabinet colleagues. at that _ discussions with cabinet colleagues. at that point, there is nothing for the cabinet to decide. we are being kept wett— the cabinet to decide. we are being kept well informed, we are discussing matters between ourselves, and then there comes a point _ ourselves, and then there comes a point when — ourselves, and then there comes a point when it becomes clear that the cabinet _ point when it becomes clear that the cabinet is _ point when it becomes clear that the cabinet is likely to be involved in cross _ cabinet is likely to be involved in cross portfolio decision—making. at that point. — cross portfolio decision—making. at that point, it becomes an item on the cabinet — that point, it becomes an item on the cabinet agenda and very quickly it comes _ the cabinet agenda and very quickly

it comes to— the cabinet agenda and very quickly it comes to dominate the work of the cabinet _ it comes to dominate the work of the cabinet. . �* it comes to dominate the work of the cabinet. , �* ,., ., cabinet. isn't it the point that it is not just _ cabinet. isn't it the point that it is not just a _ cabinet. isn't it the point that it is notjust a case _ cabinet. isn't it the point that it is notjust a case of— cabinet. isn't it the point that it is notjust a case of being - cabinet. isn't it the point that it is notjust a case of being keptl is notjust a case of being kept informed. _ is notjust a case of being kept informed. it— is notjust a case of being kept informed, it is— is notjust a case of being kept informed, it is a _ is notjust a case of being kept informed, it is a case - is notjust a case of being kept informed, it is a case of- is notjust a case of being kepti informed, it is a case of making sure _ informed, it is a case of making sure that — informed, it is a case of making sure that people _ informed, it is a case of making sure that people know - informed, it is a case of making sure that people know what - informed, it is a case of making sure that people know what is l informed, it is a case of making - sure that people know what is going to happen _ sure that people know what is going to happen on — sure that people know what is going to happen on the _ sure that people know what is going to happen on the ground, _ sure that people know what is going to happen on the ground, what- to happen on the ground, what preparations— to happen on the ground, what preparations are. _ to happen on the ground, what preparations are. for- to happen on the ground, what| preparations are. for example, to happen on the ground, what- preparations are. for example, for shielding _ preparations are. for example, for shielding vulnerable _ preparations are. for example, for shielding vulnerable people, - preparations are. for example, for shielding vulnerable people, to - shielding vulnerable people, to check— shielding vulnerable people, to check that— shielding vulnerable people, to check that there _ shielding vulnerable people, to check that there is _ shielding vulnerable people, to check that there is surge - shielding vulnerable people, to i check that there is surge capacity. it is check that there is surge capacity. it is not _ check that there is surge capacity. it is notjust— check that there is surge capacity. it is notjust monitoring. - check that there is surge capacity. it is notjust monitoring. it- check that there is surge capacity. it is notjust monitoring. it is- check that there is surge capacity. it is notjust monitoring. it is a - it is notjust monitoring. it is a point _ it is notjust monitoring. it is a point t — it is notjust monitoring. it is a point i made _ it is notjust monitoring. it is a point i made to— it is notjust monitoring. it is a point i made to vaughan - it is notjust monitoring. it is a i point i made to vaughan gething, it is notjust monitoring. it is a - point i made to vaughan gething, it is not _ point i made to vaughan gething, it is notjust— point i made to vaughan gething, it is notjust knowing _ point i made to vaughan gething, it is not just knowing what _ point i made to vaughan gething, it is notjust knowing what is- point i made to vaughan gething, it is notjust knowing what is going. point i made to vaughan gething, it is notjust knowing what is going onj is notjust knowing what is going on around _ is notjust knowing what is going on around the — is notjust knowing what is going on around the world, _ is notjust knowing what is going on around the world, it _ is notjust knowing what is going on around the world, it is, _ is notjust knowing what is going on around the world, it is, what - is notjust knowing what is going on around the world, it is, what are . is notjust knowing what is going onj around the world, it is, what are we going _ around the world, it is, what are we going to _ around the world, it is, what are we going to do — around the world, it is, what are we going to do when _ around the world, it is, what are we going to do when it— around the world, it is, what are we going to do when it comes - around the world, it is, what are we going to do when it comes here? i around the world, it is, what are we i going to do when it comes here? when there is— going to do when it comes here? when there is a _ going to do when it comes here? when there is a significant _ going to do when it comes here? when there is a significant risk— going to do when it comes here? when there is a significant risk it _ going to do when it comes here? when there is a significant risk it is _ there is a significant risk it is going — there is a significant risk it is going to _ there is a significant risk it is going to t— there is a significant risk it is auoin to. ~ there is a significant risk it is rroin to. ~' , ., ., going to. i think the question for me there is _ going to. i think the question for me there is at _ going to. i think the question for me there is at what _ going to. i think the question for me there is at what point - going to. i think the question for me there is at what point does l going to. i think the question for. me there is at what point does the cabinet _ me there is at what point does the cabinet shift from being kept informed to needing to make decisions that will be necessary in wales? _ decisions that will be necessary in wales? i— decisions that will be necessary in wales? i think that point does not come _ wales? i think that point does not come for— wales? i think that point does not come for us — wales? i think that point does not come for us until the second half of february _ come for us until the second half of february. up until then, come for us until the second half of february. up untilthen, we come for us until the second half of february. up until then, we are essentially making sure that we are as well—informed as we can be, keeping — as well—informed as we can be, keeping up _

as well—informed as we can be, keeping up with the knowledge that is available at a uk level. there comes— is available at a uk level. there comes a — is available at a uk level. there comes a moment, it is gathering after— comes a moment, it is gathering after that— comes a moment, it is gathering after that 18th of february cobra meeting. — after that 18th of february cobra meeting, which i attended because i could _ meeting, which i attended because i could see _ meeting, which i attended because i could see that we were moving into a situation _ could see that we were moving into a situation where legislation was going — situation where legislation was going to — situation where legislation was going to affect, not just the health minister. _ going to affect, not just the health minister, but the education, transport, housing minister. it would — transport, housing minister. it would become a cross government preoccupation. that is when the cabinet — preoccupation. that is when the cabinet begins to discuss things. mr drake cabinet begins to discuss things. m drake forward, you had some expense of planning for epidemics as you had to deal with the ebola outbreak well you are a health minister, during your time is a special adviser to the first minister there was a sars outbreak. given that experience, did you not think or realise injanuary 2020 the importance of early action, the rapid scaling up of resources, thinking about infection control measures, and aren't the issues that ought to have been discussed at cabinet at that stage? the

ought to have been discussed at cabinet at that stage? the signal to me that we needed _ cabinet at that stage? the signal to me that we needed to _ cabinet at that stage? the signal to me that we needed to move - cabinet at that stage? the signal to me that we needed to move into i cabinet at that stage? the signal to i me that we needed to move into that territory— me that we needed to move into that territory was the moment when chief medicat— territory was the moment when chief medical officer is advised that the risk teyei— medical officer is advised that the risk level to the united kingdom and wales— risk level to the united kingdom and wales has— risk level to the united kingdom and wales has moved from low to moderate. right until the wales has moved from low to moderate. right untilthe point wales has moved from low to moderate. right until the point at which _ moderate. right until the point at which the — moderate. right until the point at which the cabinet begins to discuss things. _ which the cabinet begins to discuss things, the advice from our chief medical— things, the advice from our chief medical officers is the risk to wales— medical officers is the risk to wales is— medical officers is the risk to wales is low. when that is your buy merry— wales is low. when that is your buy merry signal, it doesn't read to me like a _ merry signal, it doesn't read to me like a signal— merry signal, it doesn't read to me like a signal that we need to start mobilising in that purposeful way all the _ mobilising in that purposeful way all the things that you listed. when the signal— all the things that you listed. when the signal changes, and the signal has gone — the signal changes, and the signal has gone from being low to moderate, that is— has gone from being low to moderate, that is the _ has gone from being low to moderate, that is the point at which the cabinet _ that is the point at which the cabinet does become engaged in exactly— cabinet does become engaged in exactly that list of considerations. there _ exactly that list of considerations. there is— exactly that list of considerations. there is a — exactly that list of considerations. there is a very plausible case, i will not — there is a very plausible case, i will not deny it at all, that that signal— will not deny it at all, that that signal should have been read earlier and we _ signal should have been read earlier and we should have been... we should have moved _ and we should have been... we should have moved what we were doing some

weeks _ have moved what we were doing some weeks earlier into the year, but the signal— weeks earlier into the year, but the signal wasn't there at the time. at the time. — signal wasn't there at the time. at the time, the signal is this is a low risk — the time, the signal is this is a low risk it— the time, the signal is this is a low risk. it is not as pressing or right— low risk. it is not as pressing or right in— low risk. it is not as pressing or right in front of you are some of the other— right in front of you are some of the other risks that we are dealing with _ the other risks that we are dealing with at— the other risks that we are dealing with. at the point that the risk levet— with. at the point that the risk tevet rises— with. at the point that the risk level rises from low to moderate, you see _ level rises from low to moderate, you see the — level rises from low to moderate, you see the welsh government gearing itself up. _ you see the welsh government gearing itself up, the cabinet gearing itself— itself up, the cabinet gearing itself up _ itself up, the cabinet gearing itself up to grapple with some of those _ itself up to grapple with some of those matters. you'll— itself up to grapple with some of those matters. you'll eleanor morgan rave those matters. you'll eleanor morgan gave evidence — those matters. you'll eleanor morgan gave evidence yesterday. _ those matters. you'll eleanor morgan gave evidence yesterday. she - those matters. you'll eleanor morgan gave evidence yesterday. she said - those matters. you'll eleanor morgan gave evidence yesterday. she said if. gave evidence yesterday. she said if the welsh government were given their time the welsh government were given theirtime again, we the welsh government were given their time again, we would recognise that we probably should have been making earlier preparations throughout january and february. making earlier preparations throughoutjanuary and february. do you agree with that? i throughout january and february. do you agree with that?— you agree with that? i think i have “ust said you agree with that? i think i have just said that _ you agree with that? i think i have just said that there _ you agree with that? i think i have just said that there is _ you agree with that? i think i have just said that there is a _ you agree with that? i think i have just said that there is a very - just said that there is a very ptausibte _ just said that there is a very plausible case for saying that. but that is— plausible case for saying that. but that is with the lines of hindsight apptied _ that is with the lines of hindsight applied to it. if we knew then what we knew _ applied to it. if we knew then what we knew now there are many things we might— we knew now there are many things we might have _ we knew now there are many things we might have done differently with better— might have done differently with better knowledge. in the knowledge

of the _ better knowledge. in the knowledge of the time, we moved when the signal— of the time, we moved when the signal to— of the time, we moved when the signal to us suggested to us that was necessary. the signal to us suggested to us that was necessary-— signal to us suggested to us that was necessa . , ., , ., was necessary. the inquiry has heard evidence from _ was necessary. the inquiry has heard evidence from various _ was necessary. the inquiry has heard evidence from various sources, - was necessary. the inquiry has heard evidence from various sources, i'm i evidence from various sources, i'm thinking particularly of professor sir chris whitty, he told module two that he was under no illusions that the uk was well set up to meet a challenge of a major pandemic because he said he knew investment in health care had been suboptimal, he knew that the planned flu plans, such as they were, would not necessarily stand up to the challenges of coronavirus, and also he was aware there was no sophisticated or skilled up test and trace system in distinction to some other countries. in general terms, in late january, early debris, where you are aware of those concerns, was that a viewpoint you shared on wheels —— early february? tote that a viewpoint you shared on wheels -- early february? we would have certainly _ wheels -- early february? we would have certainly shared _ wheels -- early february? we would have certainly shared the _ wheels -- early february? we would have certainly shared the view- wheels -- early february? we would have certainly shared the view that l have certainly shared the view that a prolonged period in which the funding — a prolonged period in which the funding public services was not what it needed _ funding public services was not what it needed to be would have left the system _ it needed to be would have left the system more vulnerable to a sudden

and major— system more vulnerable to a sudden and major impact. we would absolutely have understood and shared — absolutely have understood and shared that. i would certainly have been _ shared that. i would certainly have been aware that we did not have a test and _ been aware that we did not have a test and trace capacity of the sort that we _ test and trace capacity of the sort that we were eventually able to mobilise — that we were eventually able to mobilise. i received advice in the middle _ mobilise. i received advice in the middle of— mobilise. i received advice in the middle of february that wales had the capacity to carry out 100 tests a day. _ the capacity to carry out 100 tests a day, under normal circumstances that was— a day, under normal circumstances that was sufficient to meet our needs. — that was sufficient to meet our needs, but it clearly was not going to be _ needs, but it clearly was not going to be sufficient to meet the mass testing _ to be sufficient to meet the mass testing regime. so some of the points— testing regime. so some of the points that the cmo for england makes — points that the cmo for england makes there i think would have been known _ makes there i think would have been known to— makes there i think would have been known to us — makes there i think would have been known to us. can makes there i think would have been known to us— known to us. can i go back? i'm sorry about _ known to us. can i go back? i'm sorry about this, _ known to us. can i go back? i'm sorry about this, can _ known to us. can i go back? i'm sorry about this, can i _ known to us. can i go back? i'm sorry about this, can i go - known to us. can i go back? i'm sorry about this, can i go back. known to us. can i go back? i'm| sorry about this, can i go back to the advice — sorry about this, can i go back to the advice you _ sorry about this, can i go back to the advice you are _ sorry about this, can i go back to the advice you are getting, - sorry about this, can i go back to the advice you are getting, mr. sorry about this, can i go back to - the advice you are getting, mr drake ford? _ the advice you are getting, mr drake ford? you _ the advice you are getting, mr drake ford? you said — the advice you are getting, mr drake ford? you said that _ the advice you are getting, mr drake ford? you said that cmo _ the advice you are getting, mr drake ford? you said that cmo advised - the advice you are getting, mr drake | ford? you said that cmo advised you in of significant — ford? you said that cmo advised you in of significant risk. _ ford? you said that cmo advised you in of significant risk. i— ford? you said that cmo advised you in of significant risk. i always - in of significant risk. i always call significant _ in of significant risk. i always call significant a _ in of significant risk. i always call significant a weaselly- in of significant risk. i always i call significant a weaselly word in of significant risk. i always - call significant a weaselly word on the basis — call significant a weaselly word on the basis that _ call significant a weaselly word on the basis that can _ call significant a weaselly word on the basis that can mean _ call significant a weaselly word on the basis that can mean a - call significant a weaselly word on the basis that can mean a lot- call significant a weaselly word on the basis that can mean a lot of. the basis that can mean a lot of things. — the basis that can mean a lot of things. but— the basis that can mean a lot of things. but it— the basis that can mean a lot of things, but it usually— the basis that can mean a lot of things, but it usually means- things, but it usually means something _ things, but it usually means something to _ things, but it usually means something to mark - things, but it usually means. something to mark significant. things, but it usually means- something to mark significant. then you say—

something to mark significant. then you say you — something to mark significant. then you say you are _ something to mark significant. then you say you are getting _ something to mark significant. then you say you are getting advice - something to mark significant. then you say you are getting advice it - you say you are getting advice it was low — you say you are getting advice it was low risk— you say you are getting advice it was low risk that _ you say you are getting advice it was low risk that the _ you say you are getting advice it was low risk that the virus - you say you are getting advice it was low risk that the virus was i was low risk that the virus was coming — was low risk that the virus was coming to— was low risk that the virus was coming to wales. _ was low risk that the virus was coming to wales. did - was low risk that the virus was coming to wales. did you - was low risk that the virus was - coming to wales. did you interrogate that advice? — coming to wales. did you interrogate that advice? wait _ coming to wales. did you interrogate that advice? wait a _ coming to wales. did you interrogate that advice? wait a minute, - coming to wales. did you interrogate that advice? wait a minute, back - coming to wales. did you interrogate that advice? wait a minute, back in i that advice? wait a minute, back in january. _ that advice? wait a minute, back in january. you — that advice? wait a minute, back in january. you said _ that advice? wait a minute, back in january. you said it _ that advice? wait a minute, back in january, you said it was _ january, you said it was significant, _ january, you said it was significant, and - january, you said it was i significant, and therefore january, you said it was _ significant, and therefore something which _ significant, and therefore something which should — significant, and therefore something which should be _ significant, and therefore something which should be marked, _ significant, and therefore something which should be marked, i— significant, and therefore something which should be marked, i know- significant, and therefore something which should be marked, i know youj which should be marked, i know you are saying _ which should be marked, i know you are saying low _ which should be marked, i know you are saying low. did _ which should be marked, i know you are saying low. did you _ which should be marked, i know you are saying low. did you interrogate i are saying low. did you interrogate it, are saying low. did you interrogate it. did _ are saying low. did you interrogate it. did you — are saying low. did you interrogate it. did you ask— are saying low. did you interrogate it, did you ask questions? - are saying low. did you interrogate it, did you ask questions? we - are saying low. did you interrogate it, did you ask questions? we would have had opportunities _ it, did you ask questions? we would have had opportunities to _ it, did you ask questions? we would have had opportunities to discuss i it, did you ask questions? we would have had opportunities to discuss it| have had opportunities to discuss it directly— have had opportunities to discuss it directly with our chief medical officer. — directly with our chief medical officer, but my understanding at the time would _ officer, but my understanding at the time would have been the risk to the united _ time would have been the risk to the united kingdom is low. the chances of it coming — of it coming here are not significant. if it does come here, then— significant. if it does come here, then the — significant. if it does come here, then the risk will be significant. that— then the risk will be significant. that is— then the risk will be significant. that is the _ then the risk will be significant. that is the distinction that was in my mind. — that is the distinction that was in my mind. i— that is the distinction that was in my mind, i think. the that is the distinction that was in my mind, ithink. the risk that is the distinction that was in my mind, i think. the risk of it happening _ my mind, i think. the risk of it happening is at the low end of the spectrum — happening is at the low end of the spectrum. if it were to materialise, then the _ spectrum. if it were to materialise, then the risk— spectrum. if it were to materialise, then the risk will be significant. i think— then the risk will be significant. i think you — then the risk will be significant. i think you can understand that the chief— think you can understand that the chief medical officer was making two separate _ chief medical officer was making two separate but linked points. it is

the distinction _ separate but linked points. it is the distinction between a risk of serious — the distinction between a risk of serious rain _ the distinction between a risk of serious rain and _ the distinction between a risk of serious rain and a _ the distinction between a risk of serious rain and a serious - the distinction between a risk of serious rain and a serious risk. the distinction between a risk of| serious rain and a serious risk of rain _ serious rain and a serious risk of rain i_ serious rain and a serious risk of rain i would _ serious rain and a serious risk of rain. i would have _ serious rain and a serious risk of rain. i would have thought- serious rain and a serious risk of rain. i would have thought that i rain. i would have thought that significant _ rain. i would have thought that significant risk— rain. i would have thought that significant risk means - rain. i would have thought that significant risk means there . rain. i would have thought that significant risk means there isi rain. i would have thought thati significant risk means there is a likelihood — significant risk means there is a likelihood or— significant risk means there is a likelihood or very— significant risk means there is a likelihood or very real— significant risk means there is a | likelihood or very real possibility it is coming _ likelihood or very real possibility it is coming it— likelihood or very real possibility it is coming. it is _ likelihood or very real possibility it is coming. it is not _ likelihood or very real possibility it is coming. it is not a - likelihood or very real possibility it is coming. it is not a risk- likelihood or very real possibility it is coming. it is not a risk of. it is coming. it is not a risk of serious — it is coming. it is not a risk of serious rain. _ it is coming. it is not a risk of serious rain, it— it is coming. it is not a risk of serious rain, it is— it is coming. it is not a risk of serious rain, it is a _ it is coming. it is not a risk of serious rain, it is a risk- it is coming. it is not a risk of serious rain, it is a risk of- serious rain, it is a risk of serious _ serious rain, it is a risk of serious rain. _ serious rain, it is a risk of serious rain.— serious rain, it is a risk of serious rain. ., , serious rain. you can definitely read it that _ serious rain. you can definitely read it that way. _ serious rain. you can definitely read it that way. had _ serious rain. you can definitely read it that way. had that - serious rain. you can definitelyj read it that way. had that been serious rain. you can definitely - read it that way. had that been the intention. — read it that way. had that been the intention. i— read it that way. had that been the intention, i would read it that way. had that been the intention, iwould have read it that way. had that been the intention, i would have expected that the — intention, i would have expected that the chief medical officer would say, therefore, these are the things you need _ say, therefore, these are the things you need to — say, therefore, these are the things you need to do now. there was not advice _ you need to do now. there was not advice of _ you need to do now. there was not advice of that sort. either through sir chris— advice of that sort. either through sir chris whitty or other chief medical— sir chris whitty or other chief medical officers or in wales at that point _ medical officers or in wales at that point at _ medical officers or in wales at that point. at the chief medical officer meant _ point. at the chief medical officer meant ministers to understand this is coming. — meant ministers to understand this is coming, and it is coming your way. _ is coming, and it is coming your way. they— is coming, and it is coming your way, they would have been, and you need _ way, they would have been, and you need to— way, they would have been, and you need to do— way, they would have been, and you need to do this? but there wasn't. so i need to do this? but there wasn't. so i think— need to do this? but there wasn't. so i think what he meant was the risk was — so i think what he meant was the risk was low. that is what we were told _ risk was low. that is what we were told if _ risk was low. that is what we were told if it _ risk was low. that is what we were told. if it happens, it will be

significant. told. if it happens, it will be significant-— told. if it happens, it will be sirnificant. . ., , significant. and that was accepted without interrogation? _ significant. and that was accepted without interrogation? i _ significant. and that was accepted without interrogation? i would - significant. and that was accepted j without interrogation? i would not say without _ without interrogation? i would not say without interrogation - without interrogation? i would not say without interrogation because | without interrogation? i would not. say without interrogation because we would _ say without interrogation because we would have _ say without interrogation because we would have had an opportunity to discuss _ would have had an opportunity to discuss it — would have had an opportunity to discuss it. but the fact that it was unanimously... had that been an idiosyncratic view of the well cmo, you would — idiosyncratic view of the well cmo, you would have expected quite a lot of interrogation given that he is mirroring — of interrogation given that he is mirroring the advice that all his fellow— mirroring the advice that all his fellow chief cmos are giving every part of— fellow chief cmos are giving every part of the united kingdom, i do not think there _ part of the united kingdom, i do not think there were major alarm bells are being — think there were major alarm bells are being sounded. as think there were ma'or alarm bells are being sounded.— are being sounded. as well as assessing _ are being sounded. as well as assessing risk, _ are being sounded. as well as assessing risk, one _ are being sounded. as well as assessing risk, one also - are being sounded. as well as assessing risk, one also has i are being sounded. as well as| assessing risk, one also has to assess... you re watching bbc news and live coverage of the uk covid inquiry in cardiff. we arejust going we are just going to say goodbye to our viewers on bbc two and continue with our coverage.

you're watching bbc news and live coverage there of evidence being given to the uk covid inquiry by the welsh first minister mark drakeford. for an update on the session so far, we arejust going for an update on the session so far, we are just going to pass live now to correspondent in cardiff. just talk us through what has been discussed so far today. a key focus has been on the relationship between the welsh government and the uk government. i the welsh government and the uk government-— the welsh government and the uk government. ~ government. i think there were three thinrs i government. i think there were three things i was — government. i think there were three things i was looking _ government. i think there were three things i was looking for _ government. i think there were three things i was looking for today. - things i was looking for today. first was the use of whatsapp messaging by the first minister throughout the pandemic. second was the planning before the pandemic took place, we have touched a little bit on that, but it has been overwhelming the relationship between the uk government and the welsh government, and how fractious that was. let me run through some key points that have come out today.

the inquiry and conversation between mr drake ford was focused on... mr reckford was told that borisjohnson did not meet with devolved ministers at the start of the pandemic in case it gives the false impression... he went on to say that it was a huge issue for him that borisjohnson wasn't in the room with the devolved ministers at all for the very first part of the pandemic. he found that a real issue and were struggling with that. there was meetings with michael gove, who was essentially the deputy back then, and he did find those meetings very helpful. however, he believed mr gove could not actually make any formal decisions himself, he was only able to really have an influence rather than a definitive impact. actually, there was quite a cutting remark in regards to borisjohnson, he described mr gove is a skilful centre forward without a team lined up centre forward without a team lined up behind him, with the manager, iea