ukraine says it hit an oil refinery in southern russia overnight, as part of a campaign to undermine russia's economy. the kremlin says the attacks were timed to disrupt the russian election. and a state of emergency in iceland, after a fourth volcanic eruption in as many months. the village of grindavik is evacuated, only weeks after residents were allowed to return. now on bbc news, it's time for talking business. hello, everybody. a very warm welcome to talking business weekly with me, aaron heslehurst. let's go and take a look at what's on the show. translation: we should support farmers, because without - them, we have no food. without them, we'll have nothing. the world's failing food system —

with farmers struggling to make a living, can they keep producing the food we all need? farmers around the world — from europe and australia to mexico and india — they've been taking to the streets as their financial pressures grow. so, what does it all mean for one of the world's most important industries? i'm going to be discussing all of that with these two — there they are — the big boss of the world farmers' organisation, who tells me he's worried about the industry's future and how it's going to feed ten billion mouths in the next 25 years. and this man, who was part of a team buying from farmers for one of the world's biggest retailers, who tells us how supermarket pressures for profits puts the squeeze on hard—pressed farmers. also on the show, what do the white house, rafael nadal and rolling stone magazine have in common? well, their websites — they're all powered by wordpress. so i decided to catch up with the big boss of the free software giant that powers huge amounts of the world wide web. wherever you'rejoining me from around the world, once again,

a big hello and a warm welcome to the show. you know, it seems not a week goes by without farmers somewhere taking to the streets, complaining about the difficulties of making ends meet. it's an industry that's crucial to economies everywhere — as well as global trade — and, of course, an industry that's fundamental to human survival. problems ranging from cheap imports to strict rules about the environment and animal welfare, as well as those powerful supermarkets, it all means that farmers have been protesting across the globe, from europe, the uk and india, forcing politicians to listen. the farming industry's also having growing political influence in places including the us and new zealand, as an unprecedented number of countries hold elections this year. there's also the impact of geopolitics because, in particular, the war in ukraine has made many long—standing problems worse. along with russia, it was one of the world's largest food exporters. and all of these challenges mean

that farmers around the world, they're just struggling like never before. let's take a listen. translation: the prices in the shops continue to remain high. _ oil's expensive, bread's expensive, milk, cheese, everything. prices are high. whilst for us farmers, everything falls and collapses. it's absurd that we sell milk for 50 cents and large retailers sell it for 2 euros, just for bottling it. we want fair prices. we're selling at a loss. currently in france, on the markets, we import more than half of our fruit and vegetables. well, obviously, i can't compete with that. i have the right to earn my living, but i will never be able to produce at the price of morocco. one family farm after another are closing down because they simply realise that they are overburdened and can no longer cope with this price pressure. it's impossible to work with these rules. - they want us to work on the field

during the day and deal- with paperwork at night. we're sick of the bureaucracy. if we don't get the minimum support price, then either we die here facing bullets or we'll die back home, due to poverty. i have to provide my children access to education. it's very difficult to make ends meet. we're demanding fair crop prices. so, a lot of things go into deciding the price we pay for food, which often passes through traders and wholesalers before it gets to our plates. to get an indication of what farmers earn, here's the united nations index of food prices, which uses export values, and it shows how prices peaked during the ukraine war, but have fallen sharply since. worldwide, those incomes are supported by $540 billion a year of subsidies from governments who are trying to secure food supplies for their populations. despite that, the un says between 691 and 783 million people faced hunger in 2022 —

in large part, because food was just too expensive. but at the same time, more than one billion people are obese. you take that together, and that points towards a global food system that's broken. with the world's population growing, but the amount of land to farm remaining unchanged, farmers, they should, in theory, be able to push up prices as demand soars, but they often have more to think about than just growing food. so, i decided to catch up with one man who knows all about that. he's the big boss of the world farmers' organisation. dr andrea porro, a real pleasure having you on the show. and, andrea, let me start with this, because one thing that seems to tie together the farmers protesting in europe and india is a worry that theyjust can't make a living from farming. so, many people would be wondering, why is that so difficult to do? well, thank you for this question. whether we are primarily food consumer or food producer, taxpayer or policymaker,

we all have a stake in an agriculture that should be more economically, environmentally and socially sustainable for the stability of the planet. but when it comes to implementing change, a lot is currently expected of one group in the system, which is the farmers. in reality, farmers are already hard—pressed to make a living in a world where market prices are volatile, weather patterns are changing faster than the ability to adapt, and pests and diseases may wipe out the work of a season. there is no room to go green while in the red. long—term sustainable practice needs to be profitable from a farming business perspective before a farmer can commit to them. and, andrea, back in 2021, a united nations report, it found that the world was providing farmers with just over half a trillion dollars in subsidies. i mean, that's taxpayer support. and i'm kind of wondering, if farmers need that level

of support, does that tell you that the global food system is broken? well, you are touching the very heart of the question. if we look at the number in subsidies, the amount seems staggering and mind—blowing. i think that the first consideration is that the farmer business needs to be subsidised because their income is not viable as per today. but if we break down a bit more the subsidies, it becomes more and more evident that to family farmers — and that means the majority of farmers — these subsidies are not reaching them. they might end up in a large agribusiness group which, by their own size or by their capacity to influence lawmakers, are capturing the subsidies, prevented to reach the one that might benefit the most. but, andrea, as the big boss of the world farmers' organisation, i've got to ask you, do you think that the food system is broken? well, the global food system is not broken, it's just unbalanced in the role

of distribution of power among the value chain. we think that investment in the form of subsidies should always be coupled also on a broader vision of infrastructure development, or increase the transparency or unpredictability of the agriculture markets, ensure that farmers benefit fairly from the opening of the market. and, andrea, research out of the netherlands, it shows how its 65,000 farmers, for them to reach nearly 17 million consumers, how they have to go through just five, five companies, who buy all the food for supermarkets. so, it does beg the question, do supermarkets just have too much power to push down the prices farmers get for their products? that is rather true. i mean, what you are describing is the reality that not only netherlands farmers, farmers in holland, farmers along the entire different value chain across the world are today faced with a concentration of few actors in the value chain that have the capability to dictate the price.

changing that seems an insurmountable challenge. in reality, we strongly think that strengthening the representation role of farmers organisations can help farmers to rebalance their role and negotiation capacity along the value chain. and, andrea, this year, more people are voting in elections than ever before in a single year. and farmers and their problems, they're having this growing influence — everywhere from the us to new zealand to india. why do you think that's so? so, there is an interesting situation in which farmers' issues, farmers' demands has become mainstream, due to a protest that was deriving from different and maybe issues that were not affecting the broader public but, yet, some of their impact was rather clear. the increasing cost of imports that

farmers have found themselves facing worldwide in the recent year somehow has been felt also by a broader public that is not related to farming systems — or they are not deriving their income from farming systems — but, yet, they are consumers as well. and they've seen a spike in the price of food, commodities and products around the world, and sometimes, with little explanation of why so. hence, i have a feeling that all this buzzing around the world on this situation has increased the attention both of media and the general public and, hence, then politics and politicians around what is happening to the farming system. i mean, it is no minor feat that more and more, we are hearing about terms like food sovereignty, an in—and—out conversation of food security since a long time. but post ukraine situation, post the spike—up increase of imports such as fertiliser and oil and gas, more and more,

this issue is becoming of a concern for everyone. one trend, andrea, that we've seen across the united states — and europe seems to be following — is the growth of these huge farms. numbers from the eu actually show that smaller farms are less profitable, suggesting that farming is really only profitable on a huge scale. and that's pushing many smaller farmers out of business. does that matter, andrea? and if so, why? yes, there is a concern of not merely the concentration of land in larger farms. there is a challenge of farmers exiting a business, and that will be a haemorrhagic event that, in any other sector, would be a matter of concern. in farming systems, it seems that these are dismissed only because less viable, profitable businesses going out of production,

and then the land is then concentrating in a larger group. but again, i would stress that this diversification of farmers' size and farming typology is our insurance policy. our concern is that our insurance policy of this diverse system is shrinking. so, the smaller the portfolio, the less diverse the portfolio, the more risk we are taking. how are we farmers risk—averse? probably a bit. but in that stability, there is also the stability of the food system, but i would still prefer to have more options, rather than less options. and, andrea, let me end on this, because by 2050, its expected we're going to have nearly ten billion mouths to feed on the planet. do you worry, andrea,

that we just won't be able to feed them all? that we just won't be i am a little worried, not in terms of the possibility to feed the ten billion people, but if we are not tackling the heart of the question, which is, is farming a profitable activity, is it a sustainable activity in terms of economically, environmentally and social activity? are we also facing the main issue of food loss and wastage? that is also a key point, in which farmers have something to say, being at the centre of some solution and innovation, but also, consumer and law makers and all the actors that i named during your other question that are holding a lot of power and influence along the value chain. those are the ones that, all together, can help to tackle the issue of an increasing population and how we are going to answer their demand,

in terms of food. well, on that point, dr andrea porro, the secretary general of the world farmers' organisation, thanks very much for your time. really appreciate it. and we'll talk to you soon. thank you very much. it's been a pleasure and an honour to be here with you today. till the next time! well, for millions of us in europe, the us and the rest of the developed world, we buy a lot of our food from supermarkets, and their role in buying huge quantities of fruit and vegetable, meat and other produce from farmers means they are often in a very powerful position when it comes to the finances of food. so i've been catching up with one former senior buyer for the uk supermarket giant asda which, at the time, was owned by the world's largest retailer, walmart. ged futter, really appreciate your time. and, ged, let me start with this, just explain how important supermarkets are in many countries, perhaps in europe, in particular, in getting food — everything from beef to bread and cheese — from those

farms to the rest of us? well, it's one of these things, because supermarkets, they get a bad press, and they have done for a long time. but i wrote a report for the oxford farmers conference last year, and i spoke with about a0 different people from the sector. and what i kept hearing is just how important supermarkets are. they are the best way to get food out to the mass market. so... and that's where we are. so every country now has moved into a model where customers buy their food from supermarkets. and the genie's out of the bottle. so, we're not going to go back to any different method. so, that way of getting your food is the best way for customers to buy it easily, and that's what they're looking for. and, ged, what we've seen over the last few years — in particular, since russia's invasion of ukraine — is food prices in shops around the world, they've been rising. but despite that, farmers are complaining in many places that they're just not getting enough for what they produce. and it leaves people to wonder, how can that be? with the war in ukraine, we've seen

real inflation turbo—charged. now, don't forget, before the war happened, inflation, particularly in the uk, was on its rise anyway. so, the rise of food inflation was already happening. but what we have seen is, i mean, in the uk, we saw food inflation peak at around about 20%, but that's not all the costs. so the farmers — certainly, the farmers, the growers that i've spoken to — their costs, generally, they've risen by 30%—plus. so when you talk about feed, fertiliser, fuel, they're the main areas and farmers have got, on average, about 8% from their customers, from the retailers. so there is a real disconnect between what the costs in the industry have had and what many of them have received. and what needs to change if there is to be a fall in food prices to help consumers? well, part of it is keeping the food prices down, but also, there's the reality actually of the cost. food is expensive to produce.

in every part of the world, the costs of producing food have gone up. are we going to see food prices go back to where they were? we're never going to see that again. the retailers in every country, the margins that they make, the percentage margin is actually relatively low. so you look generally, 4—5% is a high amount. further down the food supply chain, i—2% is actually the reality for many farmers and growers. and some of them, they're making losses. so, we're not going to see food prices come down because the costs in the sector, they're just not coming down. but surely, ged, that's just not sustainable forfarmers, right? it's not sustainable. and what we're seeing is actually seeing farmers leaving the sector. so we've seen... certainly, in europe, we've seen all the different farmers coming out on the streets. so what we're seeing, actually, is the impact globally in different sectors are farmers are having to make very difficult choices. so we've seen farmers in australia that actually are choosing now not to work

with australian supermarkets. what they're looking at is they're looking at, "what we'll do is we'll export." so they're looking at other different markets. and one of the things that you have to think about — and, certainly as a buyer, what i always knew was you have to have alternatives. in the drive for lower prices for consumers, we often hear farmers complaining that theyjust have little choice but to sell their produce to big supermarkets for a loss. surely thatjust, i don't know, pushes farmers out of business, doesn't it? i think that's a very simplistic way to look at it, because what you do have in some of the sectors, actually, is the retailers in every part of the world, they are very well trained. they're particularly well trained on things like sourcing and negotiation. now, if you're not trained to the same level that they are, sometimes, is it a surprise that, actually, that they do better in negotiation? and, actually, what they need to see is each different farmer, growersay, "well,

what are my options? who else can i work with?" so, i was up at the nfu scotland annual conference. one of the things i spoke to farmers up in scotland about is they've got a huge opportunity. and i think they've got an opportunity to actually export, so reduce the reliance on the supermarkets and look for other alternatives. and that's what you will see because, actually, globally, there is always going to be that need for food. and, ged, let me end on this, because i'm just kind of wondering, is it fair to say that negotiating with buyers is perhaps a weak spot for farmers? again, i'm kind of wondering, is there perhaps a collective body that they can turn to, in order to negotiate better prices? well, that is what you see more of in sort of european countries. so, you do see more collective bargaining taking place in europe. and you've also got farmers, sometimes, farmers will undercut each other by a penny. so if you've got oversupply and a farmer or grower undercutting, then that means that, actually, the buyers, they've got it easy, and that's the reality.

so, there does need to be sometimes a think about the more collective, particularly in the uk, how are we going to work better together to work and get the prices that we need to be sustainable? well, on that point, ged futter, a real pleasure having you on the show. thanks for your time, and we'll talk to you again soon. thanks again. ok, here's a question for you. what do the white house, the tennis superstar rafael nadal and rolling stone magazine have in common? well, the answer, they all have websites that are powered by a piece of software called wordpress. now, although many of us may have never heard of it, it does play a crucial role in making the internet work. the software, it's free to use, and i tell you what, it is used. it's used by more than 800 million websites. so, i decided to catch up with its big boss. nick gernert, a real pleasure having you on the show. and, nick, i've got to ask you this to start with, because there are surveys out

there that show your software is used by more than 40% of the world's websites. is it only so popular because it's free? oh, gosh. i mean, free is a good price, right? so, like, you know, starting from there, that's, you know, that's one way to look at it. but, no, i mean, ithink, like, there's some things about this that have made it ubiquitous on the web, essentially. it's simple. it's something that anyone could show to just about anyone in their family. and it would make something like the web, which was typically reserved for you had to be more technical, you had to understand the nuances of how websites were built and then, you know, and really opened that up to the masses. that was the whole idea the whole time, was, like, how do you take something that's reserved for a select few and actually open that up to a much broader audience? and, nick, i've got to ask you, just for the uninitiated, for the non—techie people like myself, what does your software actually do? how does it work? we want you to not even really have to think

about how the software works. it gives you an ability to take your thoughts, images, videos, anything that you can use to convey messages, communicate, connect, and just allows you to do that through the web, something that we all somewhat take for granted now. and so, the less you think about that, the better, from our perspective. well, nick, as you've said, your software is free. so i've got to ask you, how do you make the money to keep it all going? so, yes, the core software is free. what we do — in order to make money and to support that — is help folks do it really excellently, with organisations. we, as a business, we take that, we deploy that in infrastructure that allows that to run at massive global scale. so whether you're in australia, south america, whether you're in asia, the americas, anywhere, our software will reach you quickly, fast, securely, all of those things that you tend to take for granted, but you expect with a website. so that if it's your oscar night,

or if it's some big moment, that these things are available and they do exactly what you need and want you to do. that's what we're doing on our side, with our customers and stuff, to help make money. and then, that gets reinvested back into the core software itself, so that anyone else can have this for free. we really want to make sure that this thing, that the web is available for generations, and that we continue to reinvest back into that. and, nick, as we know, attention spans aren't really that long these days. apparently, you've only got eight seconds before people move on. so, here's the question — how can you make websites keep customers, well, for longer? the thing that we're actually seeing in this is that folks will engage for much longer, if you really create an experience that's generating something of interest and of value for them in doing that, from my perspective. where we've seen this, we saw over the last 15 years massive use of various social networks for connecting with audiences. and now, we're in this era

of saying, actually, we're not so sure aboutjust trusting social networks with our direct relationship with our audiences and our customers, etc. bring them back to the website that we own. and organisations that are really investing in that, that are investing in the content they put in front of their customers, they're seeing something, we're calling it "engaged time". that's something that we really encourage folks to look at, notjust page views or things that are very short—lived, but engaged time, growing over time, to the point of not eight seconds. we're seeing folks engaged for two, three, five minutes across multiple parts of a website, as folks really invest, though, in building an experience that's for that. well, nick, one of the important things about wordpress is that, as we've said, it's this open—source software, which basically means anyone can come along and edit it. how do you make sure, nick, that people don't abuse that and that the sites, they can stay secure — from hackers and the likes? we have a massive community contributing to wordpress, the software project, so it has more eyes on it than just

about any other software project that does what our software does out there. so it is secure because there is a thriving community that is investing in its security. and we have built things into the platform that help do things like auto—updating, you know, consistently working on, how do we just keep the platform secure? that's a core tenet. and we know there's attackers, we know there's going to be things like this. but we focus deeply on, how do we help carry folks along through that? that's a lot where we're going to be focused. well, nick, let me end on this. what are your top tips for a great website? oh, gosh. ifeel like i have to be really profound here now, aaron! he laughs. top tips for... i think the top tips for a website are empathise with the audience that's coming there. show up in a way that matters to the audience.

do that in really simplified ways. i think we've seen overblown experiences that are slower and more cumbersome. really get down to simplicity in these experiences on the web, that really does scale, that moves quickly. and then i think the technology behind that website needs to be one that you know you're going to be able to trust for decades. to do things excellently on the web, you need software and a platform that's going to let you move quickly and let you connect authentically with your customers. and that's really where i think our platform is going to shine there. and i think it'sjust a critical need in this phase. so those are my top tips for a website. well, on those top tips, nick gernert — the big boss of wordpress vip — really appreciate your time, nick. thanks forjoining us, and we'll talk to you soon. all right, aaron, thank you so much. this has been a pleasure. well, that's it for this week's show. i hope you enjoyed it. don't forget, you can keep up with the latest on the global economy on the bbc news website or the smartphone app.

of course, you can also follow me on x. x me, i'll x you back. you can get me @bbcaaron. thanks for watching. i'll see you soon. bye— bye.

live from london, this is bbc news. exit polls and first results show vladimir putin has won a predictable landslide in russia's presidential election — despite protests and arrests. opponents of mr putin joined long queues at polling stations — and were urged to spoil their ballot papers. germany's leader, olaf scholz, warns israeli prime minister

about the �*terribly high costs' of the war in gaza. we cannot stand by and watch palestinians risk starvation. that's not us. that is not what we stand for together. we have a special report from cap—haitien where displaced people from the gang violence have been fleeing to. # come up and see me, make me smile # or do what you want...# and steve harley, the frontman of cockney rebel, has died at the age of 73. hello and welcome to bbc news. i'm lukwesa burak. we start in russia, where official results are starting to come in, in the presidential election.