welcome to hardtalk. i'm stephen sackur. one way of measuring the scale of haiti's political, economic and security collapse is to compare it with its neighbour, the dominican republic. these two nations share the same caribbean island, but while haiti is the poorest state in latin america, the dominican republic boasts the region's fastest—growing economy. and that, you might think, would enable the dominican republic to play a role in easing the crisis next door. well, think again. my guest is president of the dominican republic, luis abinader. is his strategy simply

adding to haiti's woes? president luis abinader, in santo domingo, welcome to hardtalk. thank you very much for giving this opportunity to express our views, our ideas and how the dominican republic is developing in several of our...several economic and social areas. well, i think this is a very important moment to talk to you, mr president, perhaps primarily because of the crisis we see unfolding in

neighbouring haiti. i know that you and your government are watching this 24—7, monitoring the situation. just how dangerous do you feel the situation to be right now? well, in dominican republic, it's in complete peace. i mean, we have... the country is developing. we are hoping to grow this year at approximately 5%. the tourism is booming. we have, every day, more tourists coming to our country. and everything is normal in the dominican republic. but as a neighbouring country, and also as a president, worry for the whole region. we have to look what the situation in haiti is. the border is secure... ..in every way. we have our armed forces looking for it. but we have more than almost three years

asking for the international community to do some action for haiti. and this action has to do also with helping haiti, helping to organise and to have control over the bands that are taking over, especially the capital. you have described haiti as the foremost threat facing your country, words echoed by your minister of interior and police, who also said that, "the main threat we face is coming from haiti." i just wonder what you mean by that. in what way is haiti and what's happening there a threat to you right now? well, we are, as i said, we are a country growing. we are a country at peace. we are a country that all our industry are doing very well. and we just don't want that any of these bands, and we are organised not to... not...for that not to happen,

could enter into the country. we are organising now, we have all the security and it's a neighbouring country. it's the same thing that is happening to any neighbouring country in the world. you have to take the security measures in order to do that. and that's why we refer that is a risk that we have from outside because we don't have any risk from inside of our country. do you believe you have a moral and a humanitarian responsibility to do everything you can to help neighbouring haiti right now, bearing in mind, as you've said, your economy is growing fast, the fastest in latin america? your gdp, per person, is more than six times that of haiti. does that give you an extra responsibility in a way to help your neighbour? no, my main responsibility is with the dominican people and with the dominican government. and my responsibility is

that the dominican people are safe as they are, and we can maintain our peace and our development anyhow, as a country that is part of a region, we want the international community to help haiti. that is the one who has to do it and as a neighbouring country, for us it's more difficult to do any help or to do any action. but the international community can do it. and countries as the united states, canada and france, for its history, i think they need to do the action and they need to move and to send already the mission to pacify haiti, for the good of the haitian people. for months now, mr president, your government has been expelling, deporting haitians from the dominican republic. one think tank in your country says up to 1,000 people a day are being deported from your country back into haiti,

this at a time when haiti is facing the most terrible economic and humanitarian crisis. how can you justify doing that? the same way that the united states, bahamas and all the other countries are doing this and doing the same. we cannot have a... we cannot accept haitians or from any other country that are not legal in the dominican republic. and that's why, if we accept people which are not legal, that becomes also a threat to our national and our internal security. in many cases, mr president, these are people who were born, made their lives in your country. no, no, that is not true. i mean, we are following the law on that part and our constitution. and whoever is a dominican is a dominican, that doesn't care what... from where it comes.

but we are not deporting dominicans or people who have dominican nationality. no, i understand that... we respect the law, we respect international... and we respect also.... and we also respect... ..the...all the rights and the human rights. i understand that if people have a dominican passport, then you're not deporting them. but the point is that there are now many haitians who do not qualify for a dominican passport. even though they might have been born in your country, they don't qualify for a passport. they are, in a sense, stateless. and there is no doubt, according to the un, that people in that category are included in the thousands that you are sending back to haiti. and according to the un, that includes vulnerable people, including pregnant women and children. and i come back to this basic question.

on what basis can you do that when you know what the situation is, particularly for children and women inside haiti? on our constitution, and our laws, as you said, they don't qualify to be dominican citizens. you already said that. and we... 0ur constitution is not that whoever was born here has to be dominican. it's whoever his father and mother are dominican. and that's what we are applying — our law and our constitution. and we are doing all that with all the international protocols in that way. what we are doing is helping a lot of haitians that are giving birth in the dominican republic. 37% of our maternity beds are occupied by haitian. and who other country does that? and we are not a rich country, so we are helping that. the same thing that has to be done by other countries. other countries have to help haiti. they cannot rely everything on the dominican republic. and we are acting by our laws

and our constitution and we will continue to do that. the un high commissioner for human rights, volker turk, called on you to halt the deportations as haiti is currently undergoing such a terrible catastrophe with gang violence, with sexual assaults on women. he asked you to stop the deportations. will you? no, we will not. we will continue to do our... and to apply our laws and our constitution. i think that the un is the one who has to act more. i think that the us has lost a lot of time and especially that unit to help haiti. and we have been saying that since more than three years that haiti is going into chaos, that we were the first one who used the word somalisation of haiti, and they cannot ask the dominican republic to solve the haitian problem. we will not do it. we will... when we cannot do it. i think that the un has to act more

and we have been asking the un for that since 2001...202i. millions of haitians face a food crisis, and according to the un, 350,000 have been displaced in recent months as a result of the gang violence. would you be willing, in the short term, as an emergency humanitarian gesture, would you be willing to let some of those displaced people enter your territory, for example, in short—term refugee camps? no, we will not do it because we have a lot of historic reasons to do that. i think they have a lot of opportunities around the haitian ...even territory and haitian island. they have two islands like gonave and tortuga that they can utilise like that.

but we will not authorise any refugee camps at this moment for a lot of security and also historic reasons. you, mr president, have prioritised building a very secure border wall, orfence, i don't quite know what you call it, along much of your land border with haiti. are you still regarding that as a big priority? i mean, how faralong building that wall are you? we are also finishing almost... it's almost finishing — 90 to 95, 97%. 54km of wall, where we have the more amount, the biggest amount of population, especially from the haitian side. can you describe me any other country in the western hemisphere, that has the security problems that haiti has? i mean, there is not other countries. so i have to do whatever is necessary to secure our people. and we are doing that. and it's really... it's even organising, also, the normal trade between haiti and dominican republic and it's helping

a lot in our security. and that's why we started, almost two years ago, to build this almost completely, but we will continue to secure our border in the 300 and approximately 390km that we have. it's a security, as i said, it's a national security objective. when you say, "we will do whatever we have to do to secure "the dominican republic," ijust wonder how much you care about your international reputation. for example, as we discussed earlier, the way in which you are continuing to deport very large numbers of haitians back into haiti at this time of crisis, it's been described by some people, including the former haitian foreign minister, claudejoseph, as an example of dominican racism. one of the campaigners for dominicans of haitian descent inside your own country, ana belique, has accused you of building some

sort of apartheid regime. and even the us state department has warned american citizens visiting your country that those with a darker skin should be aware that they risk being profiled and detained. are you aware of what all of this is doing to your reputation? no. my reputation is to apply the constitution and the law. it's the same thing that are doing other countries. if you see bahamas — bahamas is doing the same thing. if you say jamaica — jamaica is doing the same thing. if you see united states — united states is doing the same thing. what about canada ? canada is doing the same thing. we are just applying our law and we are with the country who has really helped more the haitians in, as i said, in our, uh, in our health system. it's completely ridiculous to speak in the dominican republic about race. 85% of the dominican people are mixed race. we have never had the problem of race in this country.

they had a problem of race in haiti. not us. we have never had this problem. we are just fulfilling whatever, whoever is from any country in the world that is illegal in the dominican republic, we are deporting, as any country does that. so the international community — and they are not doing that — cannot ask the dominican republic to do more from haiti... for haiti. as you know, they are asking, but they're also, i think, worrying that, the international community is worrying about certain steps you've taken. and let's talk about one more specific step. last year, you appeared to be so angered by haiti's attempts to build an irrigation canal, taking some waters from the massacre river, which you share with haiti. you were so angered by their attempts to construct an irrigation channel that you cut off all cross—border trade, you stopped issuing visas, you stopped travel between the two countries.

that deeply damaged haiti. of course, the haitian farmers are desperate for this irrigation canal. why on earth are you trying to stop them getting such a vital piece of infrastructure? but i think you are not very well informed. we have a treaty to share the water and we give... from this water, which is 85% that is born and it's irrigated in the dominican republic. it's just 2km that enter into haiti. and even...it�*s not born, it is not born or irrigated in haiti, we give water to haiti. and we have never had problems with the haitian farmers. but now they want to build a canal that almost takes the whole water into haiti forjust 2km that goes into that. and it also is against our treaty, a treaty that has

been respected for all over the years, and it's not a canalforfarmers. it's a canalfor two or three big agricultural enterprises that are going to use the water in haiti. this is completely against the treaty that we signed in 1929, but that we say that we are sure we are going to share proportionally the rivers that are in the frontier. and we do that with absolutely no problem. you haven't actually persuaded some of your own people. i'm going to quote to you martin melendez, a professor at santo domingo institute of technologies, who has said, "the haitians do have a right to draw water from the river, "just as the dominican republic does." and indeed, as i understand it, you have at least ten or more canals taking water from that river into your country. so it's a little hard to understand your position. but more than that, the former president, leonel fernandez, says that your reaction,

shutting the border, stopping trade, stopping visas and travel, he said that actually that was counterproductive. it's damaged notjust haiti, but it's damaged your country as well. it's the same. we are acting to our national security. that was an illegal part of our treaty. i respect whatever opinion, but 95% of our people and 95% of the lawyers already agree that it was a breach of the treaty. and that's really... that was a breach of the treaty. and it was even... we went into the organisation of american states for the mediation to try to work in that way and to organise what percentage of the water should go to haiti, what percentage should stay here. in a river that runs 85%, 80...almost 90% in our territory and just 2km in haiti. and they want to almost have all the water of the river goes into haiti because, you know, they have a real deforestation problem, that has nothing to do with the dominican republic.

so we are really fulfilling our treaties and our laws. in this interview, you've already said to me, you know, "i want the international community to do much more. "the un has to step up." and i know you support the idea of an international security force led by the kenyans. do you think you should be providing some security personnel for that particular mission? that is against our constitution and that will also not be accepted in haiti. so this is out of the question. this crisis is unfolding. i'm very aware, as you are facing a re—election campaign, you've got elections in may and you've made it plain you would like re—election. and your pledge to protect dominican republic and to safeguard it is quite clear, it's come across in this interview. ijust wonder, when you told the people back in 2020 that you would represent fundamental change,

it would be an end to the corrupt politicians, it would be the beginning, you said, of honest, transparent government at the service of the people. do you think you've delivered? i think we have delivered and we have advanced much more than in any place in history. we have an attorney general who is independent, an attorney general who is looking for any wrongdoing from any party or any political scope. even within the government, we are, for the first time, doing real audits to all the government uh...uh... ..all the government institution. we don't accept, we don't allow any, uh, corruption, and impunity is no longer an issue in the dominican republic. of course, it's not perfect.

we have to continue advance. but we have advanced more than ever in that area. and at the same time, we are spending the money in quality...in quality...in quality areas. and that's why poverty has a record low, even with all the situation that we have had because of the pandemic. we'll get to corruption in a second. butjust on crime and security in your own country, i mean, you did promise the people you would improve the situation. ijust look at the homicide rate in 2022, which was actually worse than it was in 2019. the organised crime index for the region shows your country the fourth worst in all of the caribbean. you're still a transit hub for cocaine, according to international police sources. so you don't really seem to have cleaned up the country in the way that you promised. uh, we really have advanced a lot. if you see what we are doing with the narcotics, we have confiscated more drugs in three years than in the previous 16 years. so if you ask the dea and the international narcotics 0rganisation,

we are doing an excellentjob. all over the world, after... there was a lot of conflict and homicides by conflict, that increase on there, because on the �*22... because of people going out. but if you see in 2023, it went down and it's lower than in the last 20. it's much lower than in the last 20 years. ten years ago if you... 12 years ago, if you see it was 27 homicides, at this moment, it's 10.5 this year, homicides, which is the lowest in the caribbean. i think the statistics that you have are not quite update. it's the lowest at this year. we have the lowest with the exception of barbados. we have the lowest crime rate, which is for me even high. but we are advancing.

you know how we took the police salaries, we multiply almost by three with a minimum salary of $500, when before it was $200. we are educating the police. we are reforming the police. so we are advancing a lot. and the numbers, the statistics, if you see the statistics that we have here, we are increasing, even if police reform is not doing in two or three years. it takes ten years. and we are advancing more than even the international community expected. and on the question of corruption, i look at the transparency international index of global corruption. you've made some improvements, but you're still only at number 108 in the 180 or so countries in the world. your corruption perception is basically tied pretty much with countries like egypt, sierra leone, panama. it doesn't suggest that you've truly cleaned out the stables, as you promised, and your political opponents say, "you know what? "what the president has done is basically go "after his political enemies.

"the people who were in power before he took over." the opposition will tell everything. we have a lot...several members of the government that has been indicted, but they have to commit crime to be indicted. they were 16 years of acting that was never there was an indictment for anybody. so that is active right now with an independent attorney general. and if you see in the transparency, but if you see in the corruption index, if you see everything we have gone at some points, even 23%, we have a better situation at this moment. we have advanced a lot and we will continue to advance a lot. we cannot change in three years a century that has been the government has allow the corruption and has never worked on impunity. and we are doing that

and all the index and the situation is reflecting that. we have to end it there. i do thank you very much indeed forjoining me from santo domingo, president luis abinader. thank you.

welcome to newsday, reporting live from singapore, i'm steven lai. the headlines.. the british government accuses china of malicious cyber attacks on the uk and imposes sanctions on two individuals in the company linked to the chinese state. the us and new zealand say they have also been hacked. a moment at the united nations, for the first time, the security council boats run an immediate cease—fire in gaza, israel cancels its visit to the us. donald trump visit the trial over hush money he's accused of painterly adult film star, the first former us presidents of face a criminal trial. president putin blames islamist extremists for the moscow attack, for i been

charged with