still, taking a step back, this is still, taking a step back, relatively early in the entire narrative of the scandal. august 2003. horizon had only been ruled out for three years or so. yes. but it was wrong. i knew it was wrong _ yes. but it was wrong. i knew it was wrong theft — yes. but it was wrong. i knew it was wrong then. there were things wrong with it _ wrong then. there were things wrong with it and _ wrong then. there were things wrong with it. and having heard that others — with it. and having heard that others had had problems with it as well, _ others had had problems with it as well, surely someone should have been _ well, surely someone should have been looking at all of this and taking — been looking at all of this and taking these things into consideration. in_ consideration. in that sense you are obviously right, because many people were yet to be terminated. many people were yet to be prosecuted. many people were yet to be convicted. many people were yet to go to prison. can we look at what you said to the chairman? first paragraph.

i am writing to you with regard to a i am writing to you with regard to a i havejust i am writing to you with regard to a i have just received from post office limited giving me formal 0ffice limited giving me formal notification of their decision to terminate my sub—postmaster contract. as chairman of the group responsible for post office limited i thought it important that you should be aware of what is being undertaken in your name. you very much personalised things in that first paragraph. much personalised things in that first paragraph-— first paragraph. yes. did you _ first paragraph. yes. did you expect this | did you expect this letter to at least be seen by the person you wrote it to. i cannot do more than draw their attehtioh— i cannot do more than draw their attention to it. i cannot force them to read _ attention to it. i cannot force them to read it — attention to it. i cannot force them to read it if— attention to it. i cannot force them to read it. if you do not write to them, — to read it. if you do not write to them, then— to read it. if you do not write to them, then they will never know. paragraph— them, then they will never know. paragraph two. please find enclosed a copy of that letter and copies of previous correspondence and notes regarding the problems in question.

i have tried to keep this in chronological order. in reality this matter should never have reached this stage. but the poor handling by post office management in the past has led to the situation which could resort and as not only losing our business, but something else. unlike post office i do not have endless funds to fight this injustice through the courts. why was that in your mind at that stage, the relative funds available to each side to fight a case through the courts? realistically, i had been speaking with lawyers at that time, and i was being _ with lawyers at that time, and i was being advised that you probably wouldn't — being advised that you probably wouldn't be able to afford to take post office on. it wasjust

wouldn't be able to afford to take post office on. it was just an impractical situation from a fihahciai_ impractical situation from a financial point of view more than anything — financial point of view more than anything else, regardless of the case _ case. the rest of the paragraph. i do realise it is imperative for as many people as possible to have an opportunity to see in detail the management style applied by royal mail group to the very public face of the local post office. it is again trying to use what seems to be so often described in its outdated style and management approach in order to bludgeon its will on to the ports of postmaster, with an issue which could bankrupt every sub—post office in the country. whilst i appreciate that principles can be expensive, i cannot agree to any position which would leave me and every other sub—postmaster are liable for of pounds from post office without any redress or access 0ffice without any redress or access to data to check such claims. is

that a reference to the disability or visibility, the reporting function, available to sub—postmaster is on the system? certainly that lack of it, yes. my only— certainly that lack of it, yes. my only defence until i can find an organisation willing to offer support is to make sure that the media and all those politicians who represent a ward with a sub—postmaster, sub—post office, as well as everyone who runs a sub—post office or who uses one, has an opportunity to read all the facts. these documents enclosed will shortly be available online. 0nce shortly be available online. once the hoarding for the front of our building advertising our website, in a week or so. originally i had registered post office victim that is the launch will bring up many other cases around the country it

was thought a larger and less personal site would be more appropriate. over the page. it is important to make clear i have not breached my contract. i will not be ceasing to trade on the 5th of november 2003. if i did i certainly would be in breach of my terms. if you read the enclosed documentation. i am sure you can turn my back is up against a wall, but until the hoarding is ready and in place and all the web pages are downloaded to the server i welcome any option that will resolve this matter with the minimum of farce, without the national publicity this issueis without the national publicity this issue is bound to draw. hence my letter to you as a last attempt to reach a sensible conclusion. i don't think you got a reply from mr leighton? ha. i don't think you got a reply from mr leighton?— i don't think you got a reply from mr leiuhton? ., ., ., ., , mr leighton? no. i got one from his office. somebody _ mr leighton? no. i got one from his office. somebody did _ mr leighton? no. i got one from his office. somebody did acknowledge l mr leighton? no. i got one from his. office. somebody did acknowledge it, i office. somebody did acknowledge it,

i recait _ you can see, this is the 27th of august. thank you for your letter dated 7th of august addressed to allan leighton forwarded to me for reply. second page. scroll down. you can see it as from somebody in the operations department, a case liaison manager. first page. second paragraph. she says, i have now completed my inquiries. they have taken longer than expected. she says, i have spoken with a number of the personnel involved in the search for a solution to the situation at the

branch. although i regret that the situation has reached the point of termination of your contract. i am confident that the various teams concerned in the event have worked hard to provide support and assistance to you in a consistent and sympathetic manner. mas assistance to you in a consistent and sympathetic manner. was that our and sympathetic manner. was that your experience? _ and sympathetic manner. was that your experience? no. _ and sympathetic manner. was that your experience? no. but - and sympathetic manner. was that your experience? no. but this - and sympathetic manner. was that your experience? no. but this is i your experience? no. but this is post _ your experience? no. but this is post office's view, not mine. this included on-site _ post office's view, not mine. ti 3 included on—site attendances to assist with balances. did that occur? i had two people visits— did that occur? i had two people visits to — did that occur? i had two people visits to try— did that occur? i had two people visits to try and with balancing, but they— visits to try and with balancing, but they could access the system no further _ but they could access the system no further than i could, so it was absolutely no help at all. and _ absolutely no help at all. and to _ absolutely no help at all. and to provide extra training on horizon system, did you get additional training? horizon system, did you get additionaltraining? fiat horizon system, did you get additional training? not that i can recall. the aim was recall. — the aim was always that of difficulties you were experiencing

in managing transactions at the branch. horizon system has been reviewed and interrogated in response to your complaints and the report from horizon field support team have confirmed that there is nothing inherently wrong with horizon system installed at the branch. once the system installed at your branch, to your knowledge, reviewed and interrogated? fiat your branch, to your knowledge, reviewed and interrogated? not that i am aware reviewed and interrogated? not that i am aware of- _ reviewed and interrogated? not that i am aware of. they _ reviewed and interrogated? not that i am aware of. they never _ reviewed and interrogated? not that i am aware of. they never came - reviewed and interrogated? not that i am aware of. they never came to l i am aware of. they never came to the piece — i am aware of. they never came to the piece i— i am aware of. they never came to the place. i have always been confused _ the place. i have always been confused over, nothing inherently wrong, _ confused over, nothing inherently wrong, that turn of phrase, itjust seems _ wrong, that turn of phrase, itjust seems a — wrong, that turn of phrase, itjust seems a little unusually. nothing wrong _ seems a little unusually. nothing wrong i_ seems a little unusually. nothing wrong i can understand. but inherently wrong? it seems like a back covering sort of phrase. read — back covering sort of phrase. read 0h _ back covering sort of phrase. read on. scroll down. the sub—postmaster contract is clear on requirement the that postmasters must make good losses or gains when

miss balances occur stop in fact it isn't clear on that at all, that is a misstatement of the contract. it is evident that you have consistently refused to do this, even when specifically requested to do so by area management team. the contract also states that either party may terminate it with three months' notice without a reason being given. that is what we have done. and then, i am sure you have carefully considered the idea of a website. you should be aware that use of post office limited imagery on this website may constitute trademark infringement. you see in your witness statement that despite your witness statement that despite you having sent the gym a full clip of the relevant correspondence, — max sent the chairman, predictably the response of the post office was

to ignore the content, and predictably to fail to investigate the real issues. why, in your view, was that the predictable response of the post office? it was the way they tried to deal with things which you experienced through their area manager. with things which you experienced through theirarea manager. it with things which you experienced through their area manager. it was constantly— through their area manager. it was constantly as if they were in the right— constantly as if they were in the right and — constantly as if they were in the right and you are always in the wrong — right and you are always in the wrong it— right and you are always in the wrong. itjust seems right and you are always in the wrong. it just seems to right and you are always in the wrong. itjust seems to be their nature — nature. you tell as in new — you tell as in your witness statement that this reply was, the usual box ticking exercise, written entirely from the perspective of post office. of course. that is what it was.

the _ of course. that is what it was. the test — of course. that is what it was. the last paragraph concludes the management team has been wholly professional in the deliberation and investigation of your issues. had theissues investigation of your issues. had the issues you raise been investigated at all? fiat the issues you raise been investigated at all? not that i am aware of. paragraph 52 of your aware of. — paragraph 52 of your inquiry witness statement. page 16. we asked you a question, what data you believed you needed to access to determine cause of discrepancies in the horizon generated branch accounts, and you see, i required access to all data, even in a read only format, held on the system in relation to all inputs by me and my staff, which happened at the branch.

in respect of verifying information regarding those transactions, the accounts at the absently formed a part of, i could only check transaction links available on post office for a limited amount of time or use limited information i had access to and which could be printed from horizon terminals. comparing them to stock in the branch. i had no real way of checking information held on horizon that came from post office itself or from held on horizon that came from post office itself orfrom its held on horizon that came from post office itself or from its clients, such as camelot, or indeed the way that those have been reconciled with transactions in the branch. further on, please. scroll down to 54. 5a. whilst 54. whilst the position as stated in the letter that we have just read is that they had reviewed and interrogated and concluded there was nothing inherently wrong with

horizon system, i see no evidence of the apparent review and interrogation they had claimed to carry out. i was still without the date at which i had been requesting for a number of years. date at which i had been requesting fora number of years. nor date at which i had been requesting for a number of years. nor had they discussed the findings of me. i do not believe there was any investigation or evidence that the purported investigation had taken place. have you seen evidence today that the purported investigation referred to in the letter sent on behalf of the chairman has taken lace? ., ., �* ., place? no, i haven't. i have only ever seen claims that _ place? no, i haven't. i have only. ever seen claims that it took place. the data _ ever seen claims that it took place. the data you are speaking about in these paragraphs that you needed access to in order to understand the cause of an apparent shortfall or an over, common to all cases in sub—post offices that you later came across, that no one could actually in the post office branch get access to the data they needed to see what

had happened? not had happened ? not that had happened? not that i am aware of, anyway. you wrote — not that i am aware of, anyway. you wrote to your mp? correct. can we look at pol 304068? you tell as in your witness statement that you wrote to your mp about your case. that is miss williams? 27th of october 2003, she in turn raised its worth post office and with the minister. she received and with the minister. she received

a reply saying that pol had taken a decision to review the case in its entirety. you say that that was carried out behind closed doors and didn't involve any contact with you? correct. then she wrote again to post office and your mp, as a result of which post office wrote this letter 19th of january 2004. second page. just scroll up to the bottom of the first page. it is written by richard barker, the then general manager of the commercial network. he says to betty williams mp, i promise to write to you once a comprehensive review had been

undertaken of issues raised by you. that review has been completed by a senior manager in post office with experience in managing disputes and appeals. the conclusions of that review, which i fully endorse, are that the termination of your contract was done following proper investigation, with proper warnings, and with appropriate offers of additional training and support. no evidence was found which in any way substantiates the various claims being made by mr bates. and mr barker goes as far as saying, decision to terminate your contract was not only correct, it was the only sensible option. they best way is to consider the matter closed. where are you involved in any such comprehensive review? fia. where are you involved in any such comprehensive review?— where are you involved in any such comprehensive review? no. that was one of my big — comprehensive review? no. that was one of my big objections. _ comprehensive review? no. that was one of my big objections. nobody - one of my big objections. nobody spoke _ one of my big objections. nobody spoke to— one of my big objections. nobody spoke to me about it i try to understand what the problem had been _

understand what the problem had been it— understand what the problem had been. it was carried on behind closed — been. it was carried on behind closed doors. we _ closed doors. we have seen you write to your closed doors — we have seen you write to your mp, you have written directly to alan leighton, and the reply, we have seen your mp right to post office, and we have seen this reply, trying to ask questions. it is suggested in some parts of your witness statement that they were being shut down or fobbed off by post office, is that your view? fobbed off by post office, is that our view? ., fobbed off by post office, is that your view?— fobbed off by post office, is that your view? fobbed off by post office, is that our view? ., , , ., , ._ your view? that seems to be the way the business — your view? that seems to be the way the business worked. _ your view? that seems to be the way the business worked. yes. _ if we just pan out a little bit. it may be that these five paragraphs

on this and piece of paper are the comprehensive review that has been referred to in the correspondence. it may be that i had not seen them until recently. film until recently. i want to look at what the author, sandy stephen, says. they say, i have reviewed all the files from the data of horizon installation until the termination of bates contract and read subsequent correspondence, i have summarised the salient points, following the assertion by bates against horizon system directly attempts made by several people to ascertain if there were systems problems. a clear signal was given to bates that all future

losses would be recovered. significantly further training and support was given to beets at that time. was that true? it is true if that is what it says. it is true if that is what it says. i meant — it is true if that is what it says. i meant in _ it is true if that is what it says. i meant in reality. no, i am afraid it was— i meant in reality. no, i am afraid it was not — it was not. later it transpired that bates admitted that he continued to roll over losses. did you have to admit to this or where you are in fact telling line managers... i to this or where you are in fact telling line managers. . .- telling line managers... i had already informed _ telling line managers... i had already informed them. - telling line managers... i had already informed them. i - telling line managers... i had already informed them. i was telling line managers... i had - already informed them. i was not hiding _ already informed them. i was not hiding the — already informed them. i was not hiding the fact, they were well aware — aware. later it aarew — later it transpired, aware — later it transpired, and you admitted, that you continue to roll over losses, and had done so since introduction of horizon. you received a formal letter instructing you to stop the practice, that is true, we have seen that, and make good any losses, letters also to. losses continue to be made and rolled over and the retail line manager sought advice from contracts

and legal services before terminating the contract. from the evidence contained in the files it is clear that retail line conducted themselves correctly and acted in accordance with the rules. leaving aside the anecdotal evidence on file which demonstrates bates and suitability as a postmaster. was that ever put to you, that you were not suitable to be a postmaster? . but they had appointed me in the first instance. where you aware of what anecdotal evidence there may be which demonstrates you and suitability to be a postmaster? i have records of that time which were _ i have records of that time which were statements from the retail network — were statements from the retail network manager, to see how well the office was— network manager, to see how well the office was doing, and well done for all the _ office was doing, and well done for all the hard work. it all the hard work. it is _ all the hard work. it is a _ all the hard work. it is a nonsense. this wasjust all the hard work. it is a nonsense. this was just then flexing _ it is a nonsense. this was just then flexing their — it is a nonsense. this was just then flexing their muscles, just deciding

they are _ flexing their muscles, just deciding they are right and i was wrong. they— they are right and i was wrong. they point— they are right and i was wrong. they point out, post office has an absolute right to terminate a contract with three months' notice, thatis contract with three months' notice, that is also one of the true statements in this document. it was donein statements in this document. it was done in this instance following proper investigation, a formal warning, coupled with support and additional training. yet you continued to flaunt and ignore the legitimate instructions from your retail line manager. then we see a sentence that gets cut into the letter that we have just read. the decision to terminate was not only right, it was the only sensible option, which is what led me to think that this was the comprehensive review and investigation that had been referred to. it says that you continued to flaunt the legitimate instructions of the retail line manager. did you flaunt

his instructions? no. ijust pointed out what i was doing _ no. ijust pointed out what i was doing and — no. ijust pointed out what i was doing and the reasons why i was doing _ doing and the reasons why i was doing it — doing and the reasons why i was doing it. but they never respond to me, they— doing it. but they never respond to me, they would never discuss the issue _ me, they would never discuss the issue about — me, they would never discuss the issue about data and data access and tiabiiity— issue about data and data access and tiabiiity and _ issue about data and data access and liability and how long that liability and how long that liability lasted four and all the rest of— liability lasted four and all the rest of it _ liability lasted four and all the rest of it. when i went into post office _ rest of it. when i went into post office it — rest of it. when i went into post office it was sold to be at the time as you _ office it was sold to be at the time as you were — office it was sold to be at the time as you were in partnership with the business _ as you were in partnership with the business. but you very soon learned that this _ business. but you very soon learned that this was a very one—sided partnership. basically you would do whatever— partnership. basically you would do whatever you are told is your side of the _ whatever you are told is your side of the partnership. theyjust did not seem — of the partnership. theyjust did not seem to like it if you raised any queries, no matter howjustified they were _

can we lastly please look at pol 0000 458? page three, please. scroll down, please. this is part of a slew of correspondence that i am not going to investigate in detail. over whether you would continue to provide a service within the post office as an interim measure, and the arrangements that were being made for that post office to come into the branch and take away what they say belongs to them. you see, at no time did post office ever asked me if i would continue providing a service as an interim measure. i will not re—dash—mac i won't deny you made a sort of request to have

someone else come into our premises to provide a service at the time when you are taken away our livelihoods, investment, and savings, because you do not seem to live in the real world, i can tell you this was just received is an insult. it seems your organisation do anything and everything to try and keep the failures of horizon hidden, regardless of who they have to trample down on the way, such as ours or our community. i can assure you of my continued and now increased resolve to bring the real facts of what is going on to those who have no choice but to act, regardless of whether it takes years. in relation to the penultimate paragraph there, the post office would do anything and everything to try to keep the failures of horizon hidden. why did you think that they were trying to keep the feelings of horizon hidden?

a number of reasons. first up, i think— a number of reasons. first up, i think the — a number of reasons. first up, i think the field personnel didn't understand it to any great depth. and they— understand it to any great depth. and theyjust seemed to follow the corporate _ and theyjust seemed to follow the corporate mantra that horizon is robust _ corporate mantra that horizon is robust and — corporate mantra that horizon is robust and that is it and everyone else is— robust and that is it and everyone else is wrong. they didn't seem to want _ else is wrong. they didn't seem to want to— else is wrong. they didn't seem to want to engage in useful discussions about— want to engage in useful discussions about how— want to engage in useful discussions about how to try and improve things. any approaches they made were very much _ any approaches they made were very much surface, it was just for show, rather— much surface, it was just for show, rather than — much surface, it was just for show, rather than for to change things in any meaningful way. it any meaningful way. it was _ any meaningful way. it was a variety of things at that time _ time. it's what you rrme. — it's what you write in that paragraph, was what you wrote in

that paragraph, based on your own experience, orwere that paragraph, based on your own experience, or were you drawing from wider experiences of others then? first off, i had some experience of those _ first off, i had some experience of those types of systems. it was obvious — those types of systems. it was obvious it _ those types of systems. it was obvious it was extremely poorly designed. it didn't do the job it was meant to. and there were a huge amount— was meant to. and there were a huge amount of— was meant to. and there were a huge amount of problems. and i kept on hearing _ amount of problems. and i kept on hearing problems. little problems from att— hearing problems. little problems from all sorts of people. other sub postmasters. because i used to go to regional— postmasters. because i used to go to regional federation meetings as weit~ _ regional federation meetings as weit~ and — regional federation meetings as well. and you did sit and chat and everyone — well. and you did sit and chat and everyone had a moan and whinge about it. everyone had a moan and whinge about it and _ everyone had a moan and whinge about it and you _ everyone had a moan and whinge about it. and you heard stories of where people _ it. and you heard stories of where people were literally taking their computers and systems and leaving them _ computers and systems and leaving them on _ computers and systems and leaving them on the pavement outside and telling _ them on the pavement outside and telling post office to come and collect — telling post office to come and collect it — telling post office to come and collect it. those with a sort of stories — collect it. those with a sort of stories running around at the time. but it—

stories running around at the time. but it was— stories running around at the time. but it was the lack of real engagement in all of this to try and resolve _ engagement in all of this to try and resolve the — engagement in all of this to try and resolve the problems, address the problems— resolve the problems, address the problems and resolve them, which made _ problems and resolve them, which made me — problems and resolve them, which made me think they have just put up a stone _ made me think they have just put up a stone wait— made me think they have just put up a stone wall on the whole thing. i don't suppose when you wrote it you thought you would end dap 20 years later sitting here answering my questions. no. in the clip of materials that identified what had led to the sandy stephen comprehensive review that we saw, the five paragraphs on the one page, in that clip of material as a note from mike weekly, retail line manager, contributing to that document. and he said that at this

time allen believes his actions are now a matter of principle. is that how you felt? it was. it goes back to an earlier ietter— it was. it goes back to an earlier letter that— it was. it goes back to an earlier letter that they could hold me tiabte — letter that they could hold me liable for any amount in there. that is what _ liable for any amount in there. that is what they— liable for any amount in there. that is what they wanted me to agree to. and that _ is what they wanted me to agree to. and that was wrong. 0ne _ and that was wrong. one of— and that was wrong. one of the first thing that you did after termination of your contract was to set up the website, post office victims.— office victims. yes, i did. i also wrote to _ office victims. yes, i did. i also wrote to the — office victims. yes, i did. i also wrote to the local _ office victims. yes, i did. i also wrote to the local newspaper i office victims. yes, i did. i also wrote to the local newspaper to explain — wrote to the local newspaper to explain to the local community what had gone _ explain to the local community what had gone on. the - had gone on. the local paper printed my letter in full to _ the local paper printed my letter in full to explain what had happened with post — full to explain what had happened with post office. i also had large posters — with post office. i also had large posters blown up of that later which were attached to the front of the door of— were attached to the front of the

door of our— were attached to the front of the door of our premises, and remained there _ door of our premises, and remained there for— door of our premises, and remained there for quite a time. and _ there for quite a time. and post office victims was the group that subsequently became gfa say? i group that subsequently became gfa sa ? , , , ., , group that subsequently became gfa sa ? , , ., , group that subsequently became gfa sa? , ,, group that subsequently became gfa sa? , ~' ., group that subsequently became gfa sa? , ,, say? i suppose it was like a seed, i wouldn't say _ say? i suppose it was like a seed, i wouldn't say organisation, - say? i suppose it was like a seed, i wouldn't say organisation, it - say? i suppose it was like a seed, i wouldn't say organisation, it was i wouldn't say organisation, it was what _ wouldn't say organisation, it was what i _ wouldn't say organisation, it was what i set — wouldn't say organisation, it was what i set up initially to try and attract — what i set up initially to try and attract and draw other cases, and also, _ attract and draw other cases, and also, as— attract and draw other cases, and also, as a — attract and draw other cases, and also, as a warning to others about getting _ also, as a warning to others about getting involved with post office, this is— getting involved with post office, this is the — getting involved with post office, this is the type of organisation you are planning to get involved with. and there were other things i did to try and _ and there were other things i did to try and raise the profile. can and there were other things i did to try and raise the profile.— try and raise the profile. can we turn to page _ try and raise the profile. can we turn to page 28. _ try and raise the profile. can we turn to page 28. paragraph - try and raise the profile. can we turn to page 28. paragraph 92. |

if you can zoom in on that, you see my main objective for creating the organisation was to expose the truth. i wanted to create a body of sub—postmasters which would provide a community for those going through the same experiences. i knew that i was not alone in my dealings with the post office and the organisation was set up to ensure that other people in the same situation knew that they were not on their own. as mentioned, there was a complete lack of support from the post office and i believe those in similar circumstances require support. i have read elsewhere that one of the reasons that you set up the group was that you and others felt that you had been abandoned by other

organisations we had a