been going fihrough bills. we have been going through this for a long _ bills. we have been going through this for a long time, _ bills. we have been going through this for a long time, we _ bills. we have been going through this for a long time, we joined - this for a long time, wejoined allen in the sub—postmaster is in 2015 and have been fighting this as a group all the way through, it is just really hard, it was very emotional today. alan bates has been so tenacious writing, if we had listened to him then, wouldn't have the post office counter to do that we had. we the post office counter to do that we had. ~ ., , . ., we had. we have been chatting in between the _ we had. we have been chatting in between the brakes _ we had. we have been chatting in between the brakes and - we had. we have been chatting in between the brakes and you - we had. we have been chatting in between the brakes and you told | we had. we have been chatting in i between the brakes and you told me reliving some of this is dramatic for you but could you tell me about that moment of hope when you realised you weren't the only one who was having these issues? it is who was having these issues? it is when we joined — who was having these issues? it 3 when we joined the group and i think as a group, how bad the post office

had been and how they treated all the sub—postmaster is, how bad the treatment of all the sub—postmasters has been, the whole thing has been very difficult. has been, the whole thing has been very difficult-— very difficult. yesterday you said ou aot very difficult. yesterday you said ou not a very difficult. yesterday you said you got a really _ very difficult. yesterday you said you got a really early _ very difficult. yesterday you said you got a really early in - very difficult. yesterday you said you got a really early in the - you got a really early in the morning, 5am, you met the others for the first time, where there at bbc breakfast when many of you were able to put questions to the current head postmaster. what is it you are seeking through all this? for postmaster. what is it you are seeking through all this? for all of us feels like _ seeking through all this? for all of us feels like we _ seeking through all this? for all of us feels like we have _ seeking through all this? for all of us feels like we have been - seeking through all this? for all of| us feels like we have been through seeking through all this? for all of. us feels like we have been through a long journey, we want to see this

through now, we want to make sure that all of us are there for each other and we support each other on this. , ._ ., ., this. yesterday one of the sub-postmasters - this. yesterday one of the sub-postmasters said - this. yesterday one of the sub-postmasters said the | this. yesterday one of the - sub-postmasters said the idea of sub—postmasters said the idea of competition is difficult to stomach, they think they would compensate is not appropriate because nothing can make up for what you have all been through. they feel the same way? yes, i think it is not compensation, it is a redress because overnight they took away the salary that we as a young family were trying to live and suddenly having to make that up, and suddenly having to make that up, and then we had the threat that if we did not make good any losses, your house would be under threat. those things would be difficult to handle, i don't know how everybody has, everybody is going to come out

of this. every family has been through this.— of this. every family has been through this. some people have talked about _ through this. some people have talked about having _ through this. some people have talked about having real- talked about having real difficulties in their communities, some of them feeling like people didn't trust them any more, did you have to go through things like that? i was at a meeting yesterday and somebody said we wondered what happened in the post office, i said you never came and asked. we were taken guiltyjust because the post office terminated our contract overnight. office terminated our contract overnight-— office terminated our contract overnight. before i let you go, finall , i overnight. before i let you go, finally, i know— overnight. before i let you go, finally, i know you _ overnight. before i let you go, finally, i know you want - overnight. before i let you go, finally, i know you want to - overnight. before i let you go, l finally, i know you want to listen to what else alan bates has to say, what you are after all these years, decades' long fights like this, do you think this could lead to real accountability for you and your family? i accountability for you and your famil ? ., ., ., , family? i would want there to be ersonal family? i would want there to be personal re-accountability - family? i would want there to be personal re-accountability from | personal re—accountability from people to being able to see that somebody in the post office

organisation is being held accountable for this. we were all made to feel, go through things we did not have too. i would want somebody to be accountable for this. thank you, anna, good luck with all of that. for our audiences, we will go back to that inquiry right now to hear alan bates give evidence. {jut hear alan bates give evidence. out to be hear alan bates give evidence. omit to be viewed in the context of some other developments that have taken place in the meantime, if we could just reference those without going into the details, there had been meetings with oliver letwin and james, a small group of mps had joined and met with senior post office management and on the 18th of june 2012 they had agreed to commission an independent review.

did you know those things at the time of the meeting? i did you know those things at the time of the meeting?— did you know those things at the time of the meeting? i was aware of what was going _ time of the meeting? i was aware of what was going on, _ time of the meeting? i was aware of what was going on, i _ time of the meeting? i was aware of what was going on, i could - time of the meeting? i was aware of what was going on, i could be - time of the meeting? i was aware of| what was going on, i could be wrong, this is— what was going on, i could be wrong, this is my— what was going on, i could be wrong, this is my reading of the situation, i would _ this is my reading of the situation, i would not — this is my reading of the situation, i would not be surprised at all that norman_ i would not be surprised at all that norman lamb perhaps show his support somewhat— norman lamb perhaps show his support somewhat differently, may be a quiet word with _ somewhat differently, may be a quiet word with post office that maybe they should support an investigation. the timing seemed to work quite _ investigation. the timing seemed to work quite well, everything seemed to slot— work quite well, everything seemed to slot into — work quite well, everything seemed to slot into place.— to slot into place. after norman lamb to slot into place. after norman lamb was _ to slot into place. after norman lamb was replaced, _ to slot into place. after norman lamb was replaced, in - to slot into place. after norman lamb was replaced, in this - to slot into place. after norman| lamb was replaced, in this office for six months or so, did you pursue the matter immediately with his successor? i the matter immediately with his successor?— successor? i do not recall, i think we were following _ successor? i do not recall, i think we were following another - successor? i do not recall, i think we were following another route l successor? i do not recall, i think. we were following another route at that time. the we were following another route at that time. , . ., we were following another route at that time. , _, , we were following another route at

that time. , . ., , that time. the second site review? returnin: that time. the second site review? returning to _ that time. the second site review? returning to the _ appointment of second sight, and how an independent review came to be conceived and come into effect, second sight would be appointed to conduct the investigation or the review. how did you first feel when it was suggested that first might be brought in to undertake an investigation or a review? we are talkin: investigation or a review? we are talking out _ investigation or a review? we are talking out of— investigation or a review? we are talking out of the _ investigation or a review? we are talking out of the mp _ investigation or a review? we are talking out of the mp case? - talking out of the mp case? suspicious! we were highly suspicious i think because where they being brought in to whitewash this on the health of the post office because post office put them forward to ourselves to see how we

thought they would get one. as time went on with second sight, we had more confidence but initially we were highly wary. i5 more confidence but initially we were highly wary.— more confidence but initially we were highly wary. is that because the were were highly wary. is that because they were being _ were highly wary. is that because they were being paid _ were highly wary. is that because they were being paid for - were highly wary. is that because they were being paid for by - were highly wary. is that because they were being paid for by postl they were being paid for by post office? , �* they were being paid for by post office? , ~ ., ., , , they were being paid for by post office? , ~ . ., , , ., office? yes. and that has been a concern down — office? yes. and that has been a concern down the _ office? yes. and that has been a concern down the line _ office? yes. and that has been a concern down the line with - office? yes. and that has been a concern down the line with all. concern down the line with all the different schemes, that post office has been funding. i have always said and i continue to say, throughout the whole of the period with all of the whole of the period with all of the sort of scandal that has been going on, it has been about control of the narrative and it is something that post office was incredibly keen to do, they have the money, the powers, they wanted to brief the mp5, to x, y and z. sit on the mps, to x, y and z. sit on the committees, all of these things, pay for everything. and it always has

been the concerned, this controlling the narrative. i think they lost that at the time we got to the dlo, but up until then i think it was their approach to managing the whole situation. ., ., ~' their approach to managing the whole situation. ., ., ,, ., ., ~ their approach to managing the whole situation. ., ., ,, ., situation. looking at the work of second sight _ situation. looking at the work of second sight as _ situation. looking at the work of second sight as a _ situation. looking at the work of second sight as a whole - situation. looking at the work of second sight as a whole and - situation. looking at the work of second sight as a whole and the i situation. looking at the work of - second sight as a whole and the post office's approach to it, did you form a view on the basis of what the post office said and what the post office did? as to whether the post office did? as to whether the post office wanted the investigation to succeed. to engage openly and transparently with it, and for the truth to emerge. i transparently with it, and for the truth to emerge.— transparently with it, and for the truth to emerge. i don't know. they use to see — truth to emerge. i don't know. they use to see at _ truth to emerge. i don't know. they use to see at meetings _ truth to emerge. i don't know. they use to see at meetings that - truth to emerge. i don't know. they use to see at meetings that they . use to see at meetings that they wanted the truth as well. i had a lot of faith in james wanted the truth as well. i had a lot of faith injames arbuthnot, they weed mp supporter —— the lead

mp supporter. i wave to keep forward, at least people starting to investigate and look seriously at these cases. to investigate and look seriously at these cases-— investigate and look seriously at these cases. ., , ., ., ., these cases. to see how it got on. you said you _ these cases. to see how it got on. you said you had _ these cases. to see how it got on. you said you had no _ these cases. to see how it got on. you said you had no other- these cases. to see how it got on. you said you had no other choice, | you said you had no other choice, why did you feel that? we you said you had no other choice, why did you feel that?— why did you feel that? we had no mone . why did you feel that? we had no money- the _ why did you feel that? we had no money. the legal— why did you feel that? we had no money. the legal option - why did you feel that? we had no money. the legal option wasn't l money. the legal option wasn't available to us at that time. there seemed the willingness by post office, albeit a reluctant willingness, but there did seem to be a willingness by post office at that time. and the mp5 were quite positive about it at that time, obviously wary but quite positive. it did seem a good way forward at

least to start with. band it did seem a good way forward at least to start with.— least to start with. and i briefly ex - lore least to start with. and i briefly exolore the _ least to start with. and i briefly explore the extent _ least to start with. and i briefly explore the extent of _ least to start with. and i briefly explore the extent of the - explore the extent of the appointment of second sight, you tell us a new witness statement that you and thej fsa were not involved... we can see if we scroll down a little bit, and e—mail... on the lith ofjuly, a report of a meeting that they with mp5. it says in the second

paragraph, as well as james arbuthnot and janet walker... yes. arbuthnot and janet walker. .. yes. oliver letwin _ arbuthnot and janet walker. .. yes. oliver letwin sent _ arbuthnot and janet walker. .. yes. oliver letwin sent his _ arbuthnot and janet walker... yes. oliver letwin sent his apologies. scrolling down a bit, about halfway down the page, james arbuthnot stated it was a pity that have included that the jfsa leader alan bates could attend, in the end unable to do so at short notice. it is right that you were invited to attend a meeting with mp5 to discuss whether second sight should be appointed? whether second sight should be a- ointed? . whether second sight should be appointed? yes. and thenjames appointed? yes. and then james arbuthnot clearly _ appointed? yes. and thenjames arbuthnot clearly wanted to and now

wants to... and seemed disappointed the whole thing couldn't be buttoned up the whole thing couldn't be buttoned up to date, asking whether warburton would be willing to come back for a 3—person meeting, warburton of course offer to do that. page three. if we scroll down a little bit, three paragraphs from the bottom, in regard to second sight and alan bates, whilstjames regard to second sight and alan bates, whilst james are regard to second sight and alan bates, whilstjames are both regard to second sight and alan bates, whilst james are both at once alan bates multi—' buy in, he doesn't want to give the impression that alan bates has a veto as to who will carry it out. they are satisfied that second sight is a suitable choice and now remains to

get concurrence from jfsa and alan bates. it seems the mp5 wanted your approval on behalf ofjfsa in order to button up second sight�*s appointment, would you agree? and it was therefore not necessarily a done deal... ., ., �* ~' deal... no. i don't think we were able to hold _ deal... no. i don't think we were able to hold the _ deal... no. i don't think we were able to hold the hostages - deal... no. i don't think we were able to hold the hostages well i deal... no. i don't think we were able to hold the hostages well if| able to hold the hostages well if they had gone on without it but obviously they preferred to have our... 50 obviously they preferred to have our... ,, obviously they preferred to have our", y., ., obviously they preferred to have our... ,, . ., our... so you attended a meeting with second _ our... so you attended a meeting with second sight. _ our... so you attended a meeting with second sight. the _ our... so you attended a meeting with second sight. the furtive - our... so you attended a meeting i with second sight. the furtive page two, james arbuthnot, e—mail, i have

completed a good meeting, you were accompanied by a forensic accountant, both asking challenging questions, answer to the satisfaction of alan bates and linnell. you essentially agree to their appointment?— linnell. you essentially agree to theirappointment? yes. is linnell. you essentially agree to their appointment? yes. is it that extent, their appointment? yes. is it that extent. would _ their appointment? yes. is it that extent, would you _ their appointment? yes. is it that extent, would you accept that you and the jfsa extent, would you accept that you and thejfsa were both therefore involved in the appointment of second sight? to involved in the appointment of second sight?— involved in the appointment of second siaht? ., . , , second sight? to that extent, yes. can we turn — second sight? to that extent, yes. can we turn to _ second sight? to that extent, yes. can we turn to second _ second sight? to that extent, yes. can we turn to second sight's - second sight? to that extent, yes. | can we turn to second sight's remit, please. you tell us in paragraph 11!

of your statement that you do not recall being involved in setting a second site the public remit in terms of reference. —— second sight's remit. if we look at the e—mail at the bottom of the page from simon baker to you on 14th november, head of business change mr baker saying he works for the post office and is involved in supporting the second

sight investigation. come following on from conversation, we have updated your draft immunity agreement addressing better concerns of this is a draft document, please, which i have had a chance to review. —— please call me once you have had a chance to review. what was the immunity agreement about please? i don't clearly recall but another was, we had concerns about anyone coming forward to any of the schemes that there might be some sort of post office, i don't know, there might be some sort of retribution by post office for anyone. what we wanted was some sort of agreement that such an instance would not

happen and i think that hopefully, i'm a decision they proved something —— i'm pretty certain they proved something. the draft document says this is a paper that has been issued by the agreement of post office limited and the justice for supposed masters alliance —— jfsa. the justice for supposed masters alliance ——jfsa. is it right it the justice for supposed masters alliance —— jfsa. is it right it was intended that the reason concerns with horizon document, foundational document for this part of the review, was to be a document that was issued with the agreement of both post office and jfsa? istale

was issued with the agreement of both post office and jfsa? we wanted to aaree both post office and jfsa? we wanted to a . ree the both post office and jfsa? we wanted to agree the wording _ both post office and jfsa? we wanted to agree the wording of _ both post office and jfsa? we wanted to agree the wording of it _ both post office and jfsa? we wanted to agree the wording of it and - both post office and jfsa? we wanted to agree the wording of it and it - to agree the wording of it and it encompassed all the issues involved. it is quite an interesting document, some of the comments that are in it. nowadays doubt what can i take it to the things that i found interesting and you can add if there are any others? i and you can add if there are any others? ., . and you can add if there are any others? . , ., ., 4' and you can add if there are any others? ., , ., ., ,, ., and you can add if there are any others? .,, ., ., ,, ., ., others? i was looking at page four ofthe others? i was looking at page four of the document. _ others? i was looking at page four of the document. under _ others? i was looking at page four of the document. under the - others? i was looking at page four. of the document. under the heading the remit of the inquiry. the remit of the inquiry will be to consider and advise on whether there are any systemic issues and our concerns with the horizon system, including training and support processes, giving evidence and reasons for the conclusions reached.

the terms of reference, do they set out, does the remit described their essentially set out the terms of reference? i essentially set out the terms of reference?— essentially set out the terms of reference? ~ ., , ., , reference? i think it does. it was early days _ reference? i think it does. it was early days for — reference? i think it does. it was early days for us _ reference? i think it does. it was early days for us as a _ reference? i think it does. it was early days for us as a group - reference? i think it does. it was early days for us as a group to i reference? i think it does. it was| early days for us as a group to be involved with this type of scheme so we were a little bit led by what was thought in there but we thought it encompassed the main concerns at an early stage. encompassed the main concerns at an earl stare. . encompassed the main concerns at an earl stare. , early stage. here the remit is said to consider _ early stage. here the remit is said to consider and _ early stage. here the remit is said to consider and advise _ early stage. here the remit is said to consider and advise on - early stage. here the remit is said to consider and advise on whetheri to consider and advise on whether there are systemic issues and concerns with the whole system. was that jfsa's concerns with the whole system. was thatjfsa's aim ? it concerns with the whole system. was thatjfsa's aim?— that jfsa's aim? it was to try and establish the _ that jfsa's aim? it was to try and establish the truth _ that jfsa's aim? it was to try and establish the truth about - that jfsa's aim? it was to try and establish the truth about it, i that jfsa's aim? it was to try and establish the truth about it, yes. | establish the truth about it, yes. is that how it ended up? i establish the truth about it, yes.

is that how it ended up?- is that how it ended up? i think there was _ is that how it ended up? i think there was a _ is that how it ended up? i think there was a slight _ is that how it ended up? i think| there was a slight disagreement is that how it ended up? i think i there was a slight disagreement over there was a slight disagreement over the world systemic issues and how further extended but, yes, basically that's where it started from. so further extended but, yes, basically that's where it started from. 50 i that's where it started from. so i was there _ that's where it started from. so i was there anything _ that's where it started from. sr i was there anything else and you wanted draw attention to? fin was there anything else and you wanted draw attention to? on that document? _ wanted draw attention to? on that document? well, _ wanted draw attention to? on that document? well, it _ wanted draw attention to? on that document? well, it wasn't - wanted draw attention to? on that document? well, it wasn't page i wanted draw attention to? on that i document? well, it wasn't page one of the original document, we have gone on to the appendix. i probably shouldn't do this but, some of the wording in there, we are recognised in the third paragraph, post office limited cares about its agents, committed to the high standards of openness, brevity, accountability. can i see the full page? it was the

statement underneath, post office limited would like to take this opportunity to emphasise that these fears are unfounded. the top paragraph or second paragraph then, persistent allegations, assertions that the horizon system may be the... they are trying to dismiss it afterwards. i think it is quite important for what was known by post office at that time and they were quite happy to put their name to a statement like that. sorry, that whichjust statement like that. sorry, that which just a point on there. which 'ust a point on there. thank ou. which just a point on there. thank ou. you which just a point on there. thank you- you reply — which just a point on there. thank you. you reply for _ which just a point on there. thank you. you reply for this _ which just a point on there. thank you. you reply for this comment | which just a point on there. thank. you. you reply for this comment for request on the draft for mr simon

baker, the 20th of november 2012. your only major change was to extend the deadline for consumers to be lodged until 31st of march 2030 —— 2013, i think. lodged until 31st of march 2030 —— 2013, ithink. looking lodged until 31st of march 2030 —— 2013, i think. looking at that exchange of e—mails and draft attached, you on behalf ofjfsa had agreed the remit of the initial second sight investigation? i think we had agreed _ second sight investigation? i think we had agreed with _ second sight investigation? i think we had agreed with the _ second sight investigation? i think we had agreed with the remit, i second sight investigation? i think| we had agreed with the remit, yes. yes, thank you. that can come down. can we turn to your witness statement, please? page 35.

in paragraph 110 you say something similar to that with such you have said are we were concerned as to whether they can undertake a white wash and were in the post office double pocket in a similar way to the nfs p. i think it is right that despite

your initial suspicions, your impression of second sight improved what she had had direct engagement with them, is that right? yes. we can see that by looking at page 37 of your witness statement. paragraph 118, at the foot of the page, my impression of second sight —— second sight after second contact with him. was that as a result of your direct engagement with second sight? yes. was that as a result of your direct engagement with second sight? yes, i did used to spend _ engagement with second sight? yes, i did used to spend quite _ engagement with second sight? yes, i did used to spend quite a _ engagement with second sight? yes, i did used to spend quite a bit _ engagement with second sight? yes, i did used to spend quite a bit of time, certainly in the early days,

providing background information to how things had come about and also contact information about individuals or any queries about those in the group as well. i think ou had a those in the group as well. i think you had a concern _ those in the group as well. i think you had a concern nonetheless i those in the group as well. i think. you had a concern nonetheless that information was not getting back to power on the post of the site, is that right? he said he did not think your staff were feeding back to paula vennells, i wanted to make sure she was being accurately informed of the whole situation, this was perhaps of failure in the way paula vennells handled the situation in that i did not

confident she had been receiving accurate updates and was truly invested in the investigation and the subsequent events. we will explore with other witnesses including paula vennells and by reference to recordings of conversations that the inquiry is in possession of to the extent she was or was not being properly briefed and was challenging of the information that she received. can we look at that direct communication between the pair of you? the e—mail at the foot of the page, please. thank you, so this is 21st

may 2013. and you copy paula vennells direct e—mail to paula vennells. a while since we met at the james bucknell�*s office. —— james brothel the vennells. office. — one surprise we yet met to discuss the implications, whilst i appreciate the majority of issues began under previous regimes, you have expressed a genuine willingness

to express the concerns thatjfsa have been raising, it's now feasible to show many of the prosecution is the post office at preston should never have taken place, i believe this is a view shared by kay. he suggests some dates. overall, what was the purpose of making such direct one—to—one contract with paula vennells? i direct one-to-one contract with paula vennells?— direct one-to-one contract with paula vennells? i don't remember clearl at paula vennells? i don't remember clearly at the _ paula vennells? i don't remember clearly at the time _ paula vennells? i don't remember clearly at the time for _ paula vennells? i don't remember clearly at the time for that - clearly at the time for that particular issue. we obviously didn't have concerns at that point about what was going on, what was being reported back that i can actually place exactly where it lies. in the chronology?- actually place exactly where it lies. in the chronology? yes. some ofthe lies. in the chronology? yes. some of the details _ lies. in the chronology? yes. some of the details in _ lies. in the chronology? yes. some of the details in the _ lies. in the chronology? yes. some of the details in the e-mail, - of the details in the e—mail, bearing in mind what has been discovered so far, i am for one

surprised we haven't yet met to discuss the implications. do you know what that refers to? i am wondering _ know what that refers to? i am wondering whether _ know what that refers to? i am wondering whether that - know what that refers to? i am wondering whether that is i know what that refers to? i am wondering whether that is after the interim report they produced. interim has not come out yet to 8th ofjuly 2013. i think this must be early, emerging information from second sight. perhaps a draft? i do not think a draft had emerged by may 21. i not think a draft had emerged by may 21. ., ., , not think a draft had emerged by may 21. ., .,, a 21. i am not sure. actually, i cannot recall _ 21. i am not sure. actually, i cannot recall clearly - 21. i am not sure. actually, i cannot recall clearly the i 21. i am not sure. actually, i- cannot recall clearly the instances, perhaps... horizon can you remember what ha--ened horizon can you remember what happened as _ horizon can you remember what happened as a _ horizon can you remember what happened as a horizon can you remember what ha ened as a result of horizon can you remember what happened as a horizon can you remember what ha ened as a result of this? horizon can you remember what happened as a horizon can you remember what ha ened as a result of this? it happened as a result of this? depends happened as a result of this? it depends where it drops into the chronology of the other issues, unfortunately. i do not clearly remember off the top of my head. if we look at the top of the page we can see that paula vennells

assistant asks the company secretary to draft some words. can you recall whether this resulted in a meeting? we didn't have a meeting with —— we did have _ we didn't have a meeting with —— we did have a _ we didn't have a meeting with —— we did have a meeting with her, i remember— did have a meeting with her, i remember a did have a meeting with her, i remembera meeting. did have a meeting with her, i remember a meeting. gne did have a meeting with her, i remember a meeting.- did have a meeting with her, i remember a meeting. one of the covert recordings _ remember a meeting. one of the covert recordings that _ remember a meeting. one of the covert recordings that we - remember a meeting. one of the covert recordings that we have i remember a meeting. one of the covert recordings that we have is | covert recordings that we have is from the 22nd of may, 2013, the day after you sent an e—mail to paula vennells and in that covert recording there is a discussion over the extent to which she showed all should not be told certain things. certain items, right foot up sorry, i cannot— certain items, right foot up sorry, i cannot help you there. to certain items, right foot up sorry, i cannot help you there.— i cannot help you there. to what extent did _ i cannot help you there. to what extent did you _

i cannot help you there. to what extent did you understand i i cannot help you there. to what extent did you understand that l i cannot help you there. to what | extent did you understand that at the