is today's report on treating children and young people who are gender—distressed a watershed 7 the cass review says gender services were driven by ideology and the evidence for giving puberty blockers to young people to give

them "time to think" about whether they really wanted to transition was poor. we'll talk to whistelblower susan evans who worked at the now closed tavistock clinic and hannah phillips, who was treated there and says she had a positive experience. also tonight abortion and donald trump. the state will be determined by vote or legislature or vote and whatever they decide must be the law of the land. he declined to back a nationwide ban on abortion this week and said individual states should decide, like arizona did 2a hours later. how big an issue will it be in the us presidential election? and is the uk pub facing extinction? we'll ask broadcaster james may who stepped in to save his local pub in wiltshire, and mandy yin who runs a restuarant bar. plus this.

this has to be the widest miscarriage ofjustice in british legal history. the politician who's campagined for justice for postmasters for almost a decade and a half, lord arbuthont, finally gave his evidence to the public inquiry today. did post office ceo paula vennells lie to him? good evening. "we have no good evidence on the long—term outcomes of interventions to manage gender—related distress." so says dr hillary cass. she's the paediatrician who today has published a landmark review into gender identity services for children and young people in england and wales. she adds that, "for most young people a medical pathway will not be the best way to manage their gender—related distres." newsnight has investigated nhs england's gender identity services for years, leading to an extensive nhs review of the treatment offerend and an investigation by the healthcare regulator the care quality commission.

the hilary cass review was commissioned following concerns about this place, the gender identity development service at the tavistock nhs trust. it was the only specialist nhs gender clinic for children and young people in england and wales. first set up in 1989, in 2009, just over 50 children and young people were referred to the clinic, mostly births registered males. by 2016 that number had grown to almost 2000, teenage girls making up to almost 2000, teenage girls making up the vast majority. newsnight was among the first to raise questions about the sharp rise and about the type of care patients were receiving, including the use of puberty blockers. today a report by consultant paediatrician doctor hilary cass criticised that care, saying it was based on remarkably weak evidence, adding, we have to show that the treatments are safe and produce the positive outcomes you want from them. and when looking

at the huge growth in demand, the review found, underlying the numbers is a group of young people who often have a range of needs and or associated conditions. it recommended that before starting treatment young people should first be screened for conditions including autism spectrum disorder and undergo autism spectrum disorder and undergo a mental health assessment as they may be a more appropriate treatment than gender identity services. she said today that due to the toxicity of the debate around gender issues, in recent years many young people had been passed on without this happening first. both the government and nhs england is a significant changes have already been made. gid has closed last week, four years after it was graded inadequate. now the waiting lists are around four years. after today's report those on the waiting list will now feel

deeply uncertain about the treatment they can expect to receive when they reach the top of it. let's talk to hannah phillips who transitioned after being treated at the tavistock, and sue evans, a whistleblower who worked for about 13 years at the tavistock and who raised concerns about the speed with which children were being referred for puberty blockers. welcome both of you. hannah phillips, let me put some of doctor hilary cass�*s recommendations to you. our hilary cass�*s recommendations to you. 0uryoung hilary cass�*s recommendations to you. our young people refer to an nhs gender service must receive a holistic assessment of their needs, including screening for neurodevelopmental conditions and a mental health assessment and the evidence—based underpinning all treatments must be improved. do you agree with that? me treatments must be improved. do you agree with that?— agree with that? me personally, i stru: ale agree with that? me personally, i struggle to _ agree with that? me personally, i struggle to associate _ agree with that? me personally, i struggle to associate with - agree with that? me personally, i struggle to associate with the - struggle to associate with the recommendations. i think there is an element where it is disheartening to see such a tragic reading. there is an element where it shatters my

heart and i know that many of my peers and friends also fear this recommendation as it could be quite detrimental to the well—being of many young people. mitt; detrimental to the well-being of many young maple-— detrimental to the well-being of many young people. why do you say that? there — many young people. why do you say that? there is _ many young people. why do you say that? there is an _ many young people. why do you say that? there is an element _ many young people. why do you say that? there is an element where - many young people. why do you say that? there is an element where in l that? there is an element where in the current — that? there is an element where in the current age _ that? there is an element where in the current age there _ that? there is an element where in the current age there is _ that? there is an element where in the current age there is a - that? there is an element where in the current age there is a lot - that? there is an element where in the current age there is a lot of- the current age there is a lot of non—trans people going around saying, this is how to best help transgender young people, but they are not really listening to the trans community. it feels like they are forcing this idea of how it should happen but i am not saying that every trans person is the same, we come in all backgrounds and cultures and it kinda feels like they are trying to make a perfect cookie cutter to force us all into a certain pathway, which i think is the whole idea of the document is to not have that. the whole idea of the document is to not have that-— not have that. that is what doctor hilary cass _ not have that. that is what doctor hilary cass said — not have that. that is what doctor hilary cass said it _ not have that. that is what doctor hilary cass said it was _ not have that. that is what doctor hilary cass said it was happening, there was gender affirmation and that was a problem because it was

medical professionals who were seeing children and young people through the prism of gender identity, ratherthan through the prism of gender identity, rather than looking at the child in the round. what else is going on in that child's live? eating disorders, autism spectrum disorder, anxiety, depression, et cetera. this disorder, anxiety, depression, et cetera. a ., ., cetera. as someone who has never been diagnosed — cetera. as someone who has never been diagnosed with _ cetera. as someone who has never been diagnosed with autism - cetera. as someone who has never been diagnosed with autism or- been diagnosed with autism or anxiety i can't speak for the community. that is not an area i feel comfortable discussing. but it is worrying that it almost feels like this is an extra barrier. let's say somebody with autism wanted to be referred and the doctors might be like, you can't. it feels like a blockage. fir like, you can't. it feels like a blockage-— like, you can't. it feels like a blockaae. ., , blockage. or the doctors might say let's look at _ blockage. or the doctors might say let's look at everything. _ blockage. or the doctors might say let's look at everything. let - blockage. or the doctors might say let's look at everything. let me - let's look at everything. let me bring in susan, who worked at the tavistock. how did you respond to today's report first of all?-

today's report first of all? well, for me i today's report first of all? well, for me i felt _ today's report first of all? well, for me i felt it _ today's report first of all? well, for me i felt it was _ today's report first of all? well, for me i felt it was very - for me i felt it was very definitely a step— for me i felt it was very definitely a step in— for me i felt it was very definitely a step in the right direction for more — a step in the right direction for more holistic and a cautious approach _ more holistic and a cautious approach. let's face it, for children— approach. let's face it, for children it _ approach. let's face it, for children it is going to be life changing decision making. when young children— changing decision making. when young children move from the young service into the _ children move from the young service into the adult service, if they are to commence hormone treatment and have surgeries, those are going to have _ have surgeries, those are going to have an _ have surgeries, those are going to have an absolutely irreversible effect — have an absolutely irreversible effect on — have an absolutely irreversible effect on their life. i am sorry to hear— effect on their life. i am sorry to hear that— effect on their life. i am sorry to hear that hannah hears the recommendations in that way. because what i _ recommendations in that way. because what i would say the report is trying — what i would say the report is trying to _ what i would say the report is trying to bring in is to make this a much _ trying to bring in is to make this a much more — trying to bring in is to make this a much more inclusive and wider view of the _ much more inclusive and wider view of the person, of the individual. if i of the person, of the individual. if i could _ of the person, of the individual. if i could just — of the person, of the individual. if i could just say, it is encouraging to hear— i could just say, it is encouraging to hear that _ i could just say, it is encouraging to hear that for some people, and hannah— to hear that for some people, and hannah said she did not have neuro diversity— hannah said she did not have neuro

diversity or — hannah said she did not have neuro diversity or anxiety, but in my experience many of the children i have _ experience many of the children i have seen— experience many of the children i have seen throughout the past 20 years _ have seen throughout the past 20 years do— have seen throughout the past 20 years do indeed have quite complex backgrounds. they sometimes have comorbidities, some of them have internalised homophobia and so there are all— internalised homophobia and so there are all sorts _ internalised homophobia and so there are all sorts of things, and that is not an— are all sorts of things, and that is not an exhaustive list either, but very often— not an exhaustive list either, but very often what i find is if you work — very often what i find is if you work psychologically and supportively with people, and help them _ supportively with people, and help them become interested in all of their— them become interested in all of their life. — them become interested in all of their life, then sometimes this focus _ their life, then sometimes this focus on — their life, then sometimes this focus on gender does dissipate and their lives— focus on gender does dissipate and their lives feel wider and broader and actually the distress around the dysuhoria _ and actually the distress around the dysphoria can altogether disappear or it can _ dysphoria can altogether disappear or it can feel livable with. the risks— or it can feel livable with. the risks of— or it can feel livable with. the risks of health for the hormones, i think— risks of health for the hormones, i think it _ risks of health for the hormones, i think it is — risks of health for the hormones, i think it is important we start there and it— think it is important we start there and it is— think it is important we start there and it is a — think it is important we start there and it is a gradual process. i know it is frustrating for people who

want _ it is frustrating for people who want to— it is frustrating for people who want to get there quickly, but i think— want to get there quickly, but i think it — want to get there quickly, but i think it is — want to get there quickly, but i think it is a _ want to get there quickly, but i think it is a really good, cautious approach — think it is a really good, cautious a- roach. ., ,, , think it is a really good, cautious auroach. ., , ,, approach. can you mind is, susan evans, approach. can you mind is, susan evans. why _ approach. can you mind is, susan evans. why you — approach. can you mind is, susan evans, why you blew— approach. can you mind is, susan evans, why you blew the - approach. can you mind is, susan evans, why you blew the whistle. | evans, why you blew the whistle. what was it that lead to you having serious concerns at the tavistock? when i first went to work there in 2004 _ when i first went to work there in 2004 after— when i first went to work there in 2004 after a few months of sitting in clinical— 2004 after a few months of sitting in clinical meetings i noticed that a patient — in clinical meetings i noticed that a patient who had only been seen four times — a patient who had only been seen four times was recommended for home hormones _ four times was recommended for home hormones at _ four times was recommended for home hormones at the clinic and i was 'ust hormones at the clinic and i was just so— hormones at the clinic and i was just so shocked, i couldn't believe an adolescent or a teenager could possibly— an adolescent or a teenager could possibly have been assessed in sufficient depth to get to know them as a person and for them to feel that they— as a person and for them to feel that they could trust the person they are — that they could trust the person they are with. that is an important part of— they are with. that is an important part of the — they are with. that is an important part of the relationship, that they need _ part of the relationship, that they need to— part of the relationship, that they need to be able to feel they can trust. _ need to be able to feel they can trust. to— need to be able to feel they can trust, to be helped to look at things. — trust, to be helped to look at things, which may previously have felt very— things, which may previously have felt very difficult to look at. |

felt very difficult to look at. i was felt very difficult to look at. i was going to ask... hannah phillips, what was your experience? my what was your experience? m experience was what was your experience? mg experience was incredible. the tavistock had such a hands—on approach. they were very engaging, very informative. we spent sessions and sessions which were hours long, you know, talking about my gender identity and how i felt and the importance, you know, maybe there were underlying things. but it was a safe and positive experience. l safe and positive experience. i don't want to put words into your mouth. were they affirming what you already thought? l mouth. were they affirming what you already thought?— already thought? i wouldn't say they were affirming. _ already thought? i wouldn't say they were affirming, if— already thought? i wouldn't say they were affirming, if anything, - already thought? i wouldn't say they were affirming, if anything, they - were affirming, if anything, they were affirming, if anything, they were holding back. they were waiting for me to say, out of curiosity could i possibly go on blockers? ll could i possibly go on blockers? if you had been treated now as a 16—year—old, you would not be given puberty blockers. that has already been brought in in the nhs. tell us

what impact you think what that would have had on you.— what impact you think what that would have had on you. hearing the government — would have had on you. hearing the government being _ would have had on you. hearing the government being very _ would have had on you. hearing the government being very anti-trans. l would have had on you. hearing the. government being very anti-trans. in government being very anti—trans. in what way are they being anti—trans? there have been statements and we have for the prime minister saying women are women and trans women are men and hearing that earlier this year or last year was really devastating. and to know that in our own country, a country that is known for being free and open, it is kind of feeling a bit like wait, is this really happening?— of feeling a bit like wait, is this really happening? of feeling a bit like wait, is this reall ha eninr? ~ i. ., ,, ., really happening? were you talked to about what the _ really happening? were you talked to about what the risk _ really happening? were you talked to about what the risk of _ really happening? were you talked to about what the risk of puberty - about what the risk of puberty blockers might be? honestly, long term we have no idea, you have no idea. , , , idea. they were intensive, very intensive- _ idea. they were intensive, very intensive- i— idea. they were intensive, very intensive. i recall— idea. they were intensive, very intensive. i recall going - idea. they were intensive, very intensive. i recall going into . intensive. i recall going into university college hospital with a couple of other trans people that i did not know and parents of these

trans people and we had a whole afternoon powerpoint of this is the risk, this is what you can expect. they covered things like blood clots and bone density related issues. they really went into the detail. they really went into the detail. they could not have given you the detailed long term because nobody knows. ~ ., , , , knows. when we look at puberty blockers, what _ knows. when we look at puberty blockers, what we _ knows. when we look at puberty blockers, what we really - knows. when we look at puberty blockers, what we really are, - knows. when we look at puberty blockers, what we really are, it. knows. when we look at puberty | blockers, what we really are, it is so nice to put a glossy term at the top of it, i personally are on a puberty blocker which has been medically used since the 19705 and 19805 and originally it was made to deal with prostate cancer. these are not new drugs. the5e deal with prostate cancer. these are not new drugs. these are not things that have just been created in the last decade. that have just been created in the last decade-— that have just been created in the last decade. ., , , ., , last decade. no, but they have been used on children _ last decade. no, but they have been used on children and _ last decade. no, but they have been used on children and young - last decade. no, but they have been used on children and young people l last decade. no, but they have been | used on children and young people in a novel way without clinical trials. i will bring su5an evan5 back in. what do you say to hannah regarding the puberty blockers in the long—term ri5ks? the puberty blockers in the long-term risks?- the puberty blockers in the long-term risks? the puberty blockers in the lonr-term risks? �* ., . . , long-term risks? again i am really leased to long-term risks? again i am really pleased to hear, _ long-term risks? again i am really pleased to hear, and _ long-term risks? again i am really pleased to hear, and i _ long-term risks? again i am really pleased to hear, and i have -

long-term risks? again i am really pleased to hear, and i have always said this _ pleased to hear, and i have always said this throughout my talking about— said this throughout my talking about the subject, i think there were _ about the subject, i think there were careful clinicians in there who really _ were careful clinicians in there who really did _ were careful clinicians in there who really did try to do what i call ordinary— really did try to do what i call ordinary and good mental health work with patients. but unfortunately there _ with patients. but unfortunately there are — with patients. but unfortunately there are also some who were more politically— there are also some who were more politically and idea logically lead who really didn't do that. so it is good _ who really didn't do that. so it is good to— who really didn't do that. so it is good to hear that hannah has had that _ good to hear that hannah has had that in— good to hear that hannah has had that in a — good to hear that hannah has had that. in a way it is helpful to hear that. in a way it is helpful to hear that she — that. in a way it is helpful to hear that she feels really well—prepared. but again— that she feels really well—prepared. but again i— that she feels really well—prepared. but again i think the difficulty that i— but again i think the difficulty that i certainly experienced with many— that i certainly experienced with many of— that i certainly experienced with many of the children i met, they can hear the _ many of the children i met, they can hear the facts around this, you use puberty— hear the facts around this, you use puberty blockers and they will do this and — puberty blockers and they will do this and this and this, and they don't _ this and this and this, and they don't really associate their adult future _ don't really associate their adult future lives with the risk. so they kind of— future lives with the risk. so they kind of in— future lives with the risk. so they kind of in say, that is fine, i understand. 0f kind of in say, that is fine, i understand. of course intellectually they might be able to repeat the risk, _ they might be able to repeat the risk, but — they might be able to repeat the risk, but what i don't think they have _ risk, but what i don't think they have necessarily the psychological

maturity— have necessarily the psychological maturity to understand yet is what it might _ maturity to understand yet is what it might be like to not have sexual satisfaction as an adult, or what it might— satisfaction as an adult, or what it might be — satisfaction as an adult, or what it might be like to find that you are not fertile — might be like to find that you are not fertile at the age of 23. you can prepare someone in terms of a meeting _ can prepare someone in terms of a meeting and you can tell them the facts. _ meeting and you can tell them the facts. but — meeting and you can tell them the facts, but there is a whole other understanding i think many of the children— understanding i think many of the children i— understanding i think many of the children i have worked with i think have _ children i have worked with i think have not— children i have worked with i think have not really deeply thought about — cani can i put you these figures which are extraordinary come in 2009, 51 children and young people were referred by 2016 that had jumped to more than 1700 and it closed recently there were thousand5 more than 1700 and it closed recently there were thousands and thousands of children and young people waiting for appointments and what is your view about that a significant increase in what is it behind it? �* ., ., ., ., , behind it? i'm not a sociologist, i think it is a _ behind it? i'm not a sociologist, i think it is a blend _ behind it? i'm not a sociologist, i think it is a blend of _ behind it? i'm not a sociologist, i think it is a blend of things - behind it? i'm not a sociologist, i think it is a blend of things and i think it is a blend of things and again. — think it is a blend of things and again. i—

think it is a blend of things and again, ithink think it is a blend of things and again, i think the cass review alludes — again, i think the cass review alludes to this but i think it's mixture _ alludes to this but i think it's mixture of change in the way children— mixture of change in the way children are brought up by their parents. — children are brought up by their parents. i— children are brought up by their parents, i think it is social influences, media, online time spent where _ influences, media, online time spent where children come into contact with certain ideas. and i think this group _ with certain ideas. and i think this group of— with certain ideas. and i think this group of children have had a very different— group of children have had a very different childhood to the one that maybe _ different childhood to the one that maybe we had as youngsters which was out on _ maybe we had as youngsters which was out on our— maybe we had as youngsters which was out on our bikes and playing in the streets _ out on our bikes and playing in the streets and — out on our bikes and playing in the streets and never seeing a computer in our— streets and never seeing a computer in our lives — streets and never seeing a computer in our lives. but i think the other thing _ in our lives. but i think the other thing is, — in our lives. but i think the other thing is, again, there has been a real push — thing is, again, there has been a real push, and i've never really gone _ real push, and i've never really gone into— real push, and i've never really gone into this because i'm not about this, i'm _ gone into this because i'm not about this, i'm about my clinical concerns, _ this, i'm about my clinical concerns, but i think there are other— concerns, but i think there are other people that argue that they have been quite dark forces around and there _ have been quite dark forces around and there are certainly financial implications... let and there are certainly financial implications. . ._ and there are certainly financial implications... let me ask hannah philli -s implications... let me ask hannah phillips about _ implications... let me ask hannah phillips about that, _ implications... let me ask hannah phillips about that, doctor - implications... let me ask hannah phillips about that, doctor cass i phillip5 about that, doctor ca55 talked about the generation growing

up talked about the generation growing up now being the first generation with social media and influences being a thing in their lives so it was that relevant to you? were you aware of dark forces, as su5an evan5 has suggested? aware of dark forces, as susan evans has suggested?— has suggested? personally, as someone who _ has suggested? personally, as someone who produces - has suggested? personally, as someone who produces social| has suggested? personally, as - someone who produces social media content on youtube and tiktok, i have been exposed to many young people who are feeling that social media has not really had that much of an impact. i think there was an element where the reason why you might think, oh, trans people are hanging out together and spreading this disease, you know, it's false. i think the reason the trans community stick together and have each other�*s back is because the rest of society makes us feel excluded. i think it's a very worrying time. ln excluded. i think it's a very worrying time.— excluded. i think it's a very worrying time. excluded. i think it's a very wor in: time. . ., worrying time. in what way do you feel excluded? _ worrying time. in what way do you feel excluded? i— worrying time. in what way do you feel excluded? i think— worrying time. in what way do you feel excluded? i think there - worrying time. in what way do you feel excluded? i think there is - worrying time. in what way do you feel excluded? i think there is an l feel excluded? i think there is an element where _ feel excluded? i think there is an element where the _ feel excluded? i think there is an element where the majority - feel excluded? i think there is an element where the majority of i feel excluded? i think there is an - element where the majority of people will never feel an element of gender dysphoria. but will never feel an element of gender d shoria. �* ., .,

will never feel an element of gender d shoria. �* . . ,, will never feel an element of gender d shoria. �* . ., i. . dysphoria. but what are you excluded from? i dysphoria. but what are you excluded from? ithink— dysphoria. but what are you excluded from? i think it's _ dysphoria. but what are you excluded from? i think it's the _ dysphoria. but what are you excluded from? i think it's the fact _ dysphoria. but what are you excluded from? i think it's the fact that - dysphoria. but what are you excluded from? i think it's the fact that you - from? i think it's the fact that you are never seen _ from? i think it's the fact that you are never seen as _ from? i think it's the fact that you are never seen as equal, - from? i think it's the fact that you are never seen as equal, we - from? i think it's the fact that you are never seen as equal, we have | are never seen as equal, we have recently heard about trans people being banned from playing chess and what competitive advantage does a trans person have playing chess? {lilla trans person have playing chess? ok, thank ou trans person have playing chess? ok, thank you very _ trans person have playing chess? 0k, thank you very much to both of you and thank you for being with us tonight. are uk pubs in terminal decline? more than one a day shut last year and that town centre staple the slug & lettuce is facing uncertainty with its owners in more than two billion pounds' worth of debt. restaurants are shutting too, with a number of high profile ones such as michel roux's le gavroche closing already this year. but wetherspoons is bucking the trend, so is the uk hospitality sector, that contributes more than £90 billion to the economy, really in serious trouble? or is it a case of survival of the fittest in a cost of living crisis? writer and broadcasterjames may stepped in to save his local pub in swallowcliffe in wiltshire in 2020 and mandy yin is the founder and owner of malaysian restaurant

sambal shiok laksa bar. welcome to both of you, so why did you step in? aha, welcome to both of you, so why did you step in?— you step in? a massive act of philanthropy _ you step in? a massive act of philanthropy on _ you step in? a massive act of philanthropy on my _ you step in? a massive act of philanthropy on my part! - you step in? a massive act of philanthropy on my part! to | you step in? a massive act of. philanthropy on my part! to be honest, it was entirely selfish. it was the only pub within walking distance of the little cottage we had and it had gone there were rumours it might be turned into a house, for example, they would have been no pope within walking distance of the house and life would have become meaningless. what i effectively bought was a very expensive pint!— effectively bought was a very expensive pint! effectively bought was a very exensive int! ., ., , ., . ~' expensive pint! ok, and do you make a rofit? expensive pint! ok, and do you make a profit? no- — expensive pint! ok, and do you make a profit? no. actually, _ expensive pint! ok, and do you make a profit? no. actually, that's- expensive pint! ok, and do you make a profit? no. actually, that's not - a profit? no. actually, that's not ruite a profit? no. actually, that's not quite fair. _ a profit? no. actually, that's not quite fair. a _ a profit? no. actually, that's not quite fair, a tiny _ a profit? no. actually, that's not quite fair, a tiny one _ a profit? no. actually, that's not quite fair, a tiny one but - a profit? no. actually, that's not quite fair, a tiny one but what i a profit? no. actually, that's not l quite fair, a tiny one but what they say in business? it wipes its face. but i've never taken any money out of. if it survives, i think that's good enough because the pub is still there which is what i want. find good enough because the pub is still there which is what i want.— there which is what i want. and in terms of your— there which is what i want. and in terms of your restaurant, - there which is what i want. and in terms of your restaurant, mandy, j there which is what i want. and in - terms of your restaurant, mandy, are you surviving, are you thriving right now? we you surviving, are you thriving right now?— you surviving, are you thriving rirhtnow? . , . , right now? we are very much 'ust

survivinu. right now? we are very much 'ust surviving. pre-covid, i right now? we are very much 'ust surviving. pre-covid, profith surviving. pre—covid, profit margins. _ surviving. pre—covid, profit margins, if you were good, about 15-20% _ margins, if you were good, about 15-20% and — margins, if you were good, about 15—20% and now, if you are lucky you are looking _ 15—20% and now, if you are lucky you are looking at — 15—20% and now, if you are lucky you are looking at 5% if that they are razor-thih — are looking at 5% if that they are razor—thin. so are looking at 596 if that they are razor-thin— razor-thin. so what is going on? inflation, cost _ razor-thin. so what is going on? inflation, cost of— razor-thin. so what is going on? inflation, cost of living - razor-thin. so what is going on? inflation, cost of living crisis, i inflation, cost of living crisis, it's not— inflation, cost of living crisis, it's not new news but it is certainly _ it's not new news but it is certainly biting hard. the first quarter— certainly biting hard. the first quarter of the year we are a relation _ quarter of the year we are a relation spicy noodle bar, usually january— relation spicy noodle bar, usually january to — relation spicy noodle bar, usually january to march is our busiest season— january to march is our busiest season but this year sales are maybe 20% less _ season but this year sales are maybe 20% less about last year and that is really _ 20% less about last year and that is really worrying because i had to put prices _ really worrying because i had to put prices up _ really worrying because i had to put prices up by about 20% last year so it means _ prices up by about 20% last year so it means we — prices up by about 20% last year so it means we really behind. why are so many pubs _ it means we really behind. why are so many pubs closing? _ it means we really behind. why are so many pubs closing? where i it means we really behind. why are so many pubs closing? where is i it means we really behind. why are| so many pubs closing? where is the competition coming from?— so many pubs closing? where is the competition coming from? brutally, i think the problem _ competition coming from? brutally, i think the problem with _ competition coming from? brutally, i think the problem with pubs - competition coming from? brutally, i think the problem with pubs is i competition coming from? brutally, i think the problem with pubs is there | think the problem with pubs is there have been too many for a long time i don't think the pub is in terminal decline, i think good pubs will

survive, although i will look right burki of mine goes bust next year having said that but to be honest, it is the bad pubs that close and those that are prepared to live with a time survived in the pub does tap to changejust as a time survived in the pub does tap to change just as the high street has had to. because we are british, there is an element of people thinking they are part of our national identity and heritage and an important tradition but they are not any of those things, they are not any of those things, they are not monuments, they are pubs and like a restaurant, mine is mainly a restaurant and they have to serve people's needs and wants.- people's needs and wants. hence wetherspoons — people's needs and wants. hence wetherspoons bucking _ people's needs and wants. hence wetherspoons bucking the - people's needs and wants. hence wetherspoons bucking the trend | wetherspoons bucking the trend because that diversifying and it's not as expensive as other places put a lot of guess i'm sure it down to the low prices and if i was 20 again i would have loved it! l the low prices and if i was 20 again i would have loved it!— i would have loved it! i would have thou~ht it i would have loved it! i would have thought it was great. _ i would have loved it! i would have thought it was great. a _ i would have loved it! i would have thought it was great. a lot - thought it was great. a lot of people think it is damaging our idea of what a proper pub should be but at the same time, they're keeping the idea pubs alive so it doesn't worry me and we don't have eight

wetherspoons nearby to compete with us anyway. you wetherspoons nearby to compete with us an a . ., , , , wetherspoons nearby to compete with usan ., wetherspoons nearby to compete with usan a. ., , ,, ., us anyway. you surprise me that you don't have a — us anyway. you surprise me that you don't have a wetherspoons - us anyway. you surprise me that you don't have a wetherspoons insula i don't have a wetherspoons insula cliff? ~ don't have a wetherspoons insula cliff? . ., �* don't have a wetherspoons insula cliff? ., �* , don't have a wetherspoons insula cliff? . ., �* , �* don't have a wetherspoons insula cliff? , �*, don't have a wetherspoons insula cliff? �* , �*, cliff? we don't but i'm sure it's cominu! cliff? we don't but i'm sure it's coming! -- _ cliff? we don't but i'm sure it's coming! -- in— cliff? we don't but i'm sure it's coming! -- in swallowcliffe i cliff? we don't but i'm sure it's i coming! -- in swallowcliffe pond you are struggling _ coming! -- in swallowcliffe pond you are struggling to _ coming! -- in swallowcliffe pond you are struggling to recruit _ coming! -- in swallowcliffe pond you are struggling to recruit staff - coming! -- in swallowcliffe pond you are struggling to recruit staff but i are struggling to recruit staff but why? are struggling to recruit staff but wh ? �* . ., ., are struggling to recruit staff but wh ? �* . . ., . ., . why? again, inflation the national minimum wage — why? again, inflation the national minimum wage just _ why? again, inflation the national minimum wage just rose - why? again, inflation the national minimum wage just rose again i why? again, inflation the national minimum wage just rose again by| why? again, inflation the national. minimum wage just rose again by £1, the second _ minimum wage just rose again by £1, the second quantitative year and that means i had to pass on the cost to customers. but in terms of staffing. _ to customers. but in terms of staffing, post—brexit it has become increasingly difficult to find people. we have at the top and head chefs. _ people. we have at the top and head chefs. sous _ people. we have at the top and head chefs, sous chefs, a reasonable number— chefs, sous chefs, a reasonable number but it's the middle level, there's— number but it's the middle level, there's nobody there, and the hole is to be _ there's nobody there, and the hole is to be filled with people who really — is to be filled with people who really wanted to work from europe but you _ really wanted to work from europe but you don't have that any more. and you _ but you don't have that any more. and you know what the government says, when you have to pay people more and you will be able to recruit workers, that's what they say. customers are not able to pay what

we need _ customers are not able to pay what we need to— customers are not able to pay what we need to charge and therefore that doesn't _ we need to charge and therefore that doesn't work. how we need to charge and therefore that doesn't work-— doesn't work. how are you going to manaue doesn't work. how are you going to manage and _ doesn't work. how are you going to manage and survive? _ doesn't work. how are you going to manage and survive? honestly, i doesn't work. how are you going to manage and survive? honestly, it | doesn't work. how are you going to | manage and survive? honestly, it is a day-to-day _ manage and survive? honestly, it is a day-to-day headache. _ manage and survive? honestly, it is a day-to-day headache. we - manage and survive? honestly, it is a day-to-day headache. we just i manage and survive? honestly, it is a day-to-day headache. we just try| a day—to—day headache. we just try our best— a day—to—day headache. we just try our best to — a day—to—day headache. we just try our best to continue serving food that we _ our best to continue serving food that we have made as much as possible — that we have made as much as possible i_ that we have made as much as possible i will selves in house, we make _ possible i will selves in house, we make our— possible i will selves in house, we make our own laksa instead of buying commercially available ones... are ou 0 en commercially available ones... are you open six _ commercially available ones... fife: you open six days commercially available ones... fif'e you open six days a commercially available ones... fie you open six days a week? would you consider cutting that down? absolutely, if someone resigned and i absolutely, if someone resigned and i cannot— absolutely, if someone resigned and i cannot fill— absolutely, if someone resigned and i cannot fill that position, i will have _ i cannot fill that position, i will have to — i cannot fill that position, i will have to cut one day off per week of trading _ have to cut one day off per week of trading which isjust a have to cut one day off per week of trading which is just a vicious cycle. — trading which is 'ust a vicious cle. ,:, trading which is 'ust a vicious cle. , :, ~' trading which is 'ust a vicious cle. i. ,, :, trading which is 'ust a vicious cle. ,, :, cycle. do you ever think, are you awake at night _ cycle. do you ever think, are you awake at night worrying - cycle. do you ever think, are you awake at night worrying about i cycle. do you ever think, are you i awake at night worrying about this? my awake at night worrying about this? my experience during covid was so traumatic. — my experience during covid was so traumatic, which made me realise i can only— traumatic, which made me realise i can only try— traumatic, which made me realise i can only try my best every day to

keep— can only try my best every day to keep things going, but sometimes life has— keep things going, but sometimes life has a — keep things going, but sometimes life has a different pass could still very— life has a different pass could still very much trying my best, and banging _ still very much trying my best, and banging the drum. i was asked today, what could _ banging the drum. i was asked today, what could the government do to help. _ what could the government do to help. there has been a big movement, especially— help. there has been a big movement, especially up in manchester, asking for a vat— especially up in manchester, asking for a vat cut for hospitality... to what? _ for a vat cut for hospitality... to what? anything really, and that can be on _ what? anything really, and that can be on a _ what? anything really, and that can be on a threshold basis, certainly for small— be on a threshold basis, certainly for small independents like myself, we just— for small independents like myself, we just don't have the economies of scale _ we just don't have the economies of scale or— we just don't have the economies of scale or the — we just don't have the economies of scale or the financial backing to depend — scale or the financial backing to depend on so that would be a lifeline. — depend on so that would be a lifeline. ~ :. depend on so that would be a lifeline. ~ :, :, , ., lifeline. we have a number of politicians _ lifeline. we have a number of politicians who _ lifeline. we have a number of politicians who watch - lifeline. we have a number of i politicians who watch newsnight so who knows? and there may be another fiscal event before a general election so we will see. back at the bbc, james, when is the final series of the grand tour?— of the grand tour? they have not actually told _

of the grand tour? they have not actually told me _ of the grand tour? they have not actually told me yet _ of the grand tour? they have not actually told me yet so _ of the grand tour? they have not actually told me yet so i'm - of the grand tour? they have not actually told me yet so i'm not i actually told me yet so i'm not trying to be elusive, but i would guess, last quarter of this year. and i mean this in the most affectionate way, you want to carry on working or are you thinking about putting your feet up what? the on working or are you thinking about putting your feet up what?— on working or are you thinking about putting your feet up what? the way i ut it is putting your feet up what? the way i put it is m — putting your feet up what? the way i put it is i'm experimenting _ putting your feet up what? the way i put it is i'm experimenting with i put it is i'm experimenting with retirement although what that really means is it is experimenting with me. it depends if anybody wants me! what do you want to do? not that i've got anyjob to offer! l’m what do you want to do? not that i've got any job to offer!— i've got any 'ob to offer! i'm quite interested i've got any job to offer! i'm quite interested in _ i've got any job to offer! i'm quite interested in spending _ i've got any job to offer! i'm quite interested in spending more i i've got any job to offer! i'm quite interested in spending more time| i've got any job to offer! i'm quite l interested in spending more time in my pub, to be honest! but also i'm interested in slightly lower key things because i'm knocking on a bit obviously. things because i'm knocking on a bit obviousl . :, :, :, things because i'm knocking on a bit obviously-— 61- - things because i'm knocking on a bit obviously._ 61. obviously. how old are you? 61. that ounr! obviously. how old are you? 61. that young! not — obviously. how old are you? 61. that young! not as— obviously. how old are you? 61. that young! not as young _ obviously. how old are you? 61. that young! not as young as _ obviously. how old are you? 61. that young! not as young as 40 _ obviously. how old are you? 61. that young! not as young as 40 which i obviously. how old are you? 61. that young! not as young as 40 which is l young! not as young as 40 which is how old i young! not as young as 40 which is how old i was _ young! not as young as 40 which is how old i was when _ young! not as young as 40 which is how old i was when i _ young! not as young as 40 which is how old i was when i started. i young! not as young as 40 which is| how old i was when i started. there are a few ideas floating around in the areas of history, popular science and that sort of thing. and i'm doing what all people in my position, and pitching them and

sitting at home going... waiting for a call. sitting at home going... waiting for a call- should _ sitting at home going... waiting for a call. should they _ sitting at home going... waiting for a call. should they have _ sitting at home going... waiting for a call. should they have run - sitting at home going... waiting for a call. should they have run by i sitting at home going... waiting for. a call. should they have run by now? i can't remember _ a call. should they have run by now? i can't remember the _ a call. should they have run by now? i can't remember the quote - a call. should they have run by now? i can't remember the quote but i i can't remember the quote but didn't you say there's not much interest in white men any more question could be you mean that? lt question could be you mean that? it might be an excuse, it might knit! it's getting them in early! l do it's getting them in early! i do sometimes — it's getting them in early! i do sometimes wonder. _ it's getting them in early! i do sometimes wonder. i - it's getting them in early! i rr sometimes wonder. i always said it was a remarkable opportunity and if it ends tomorrow, and i said this ten or 12 years ago, i should be aduu ten or 12 years ago, i should be adult enough to say, well, that was good and wasn't i lucky and move on if that time has come, you know, i'm sure there are many sound men that worked with me who often myself that make it themselves, this has got to stop as they listen to that stream of stuff coming into their headphones! if it does, i hope i will smile and wave. bud headphones! if it does, i hope i will smile and wave.— will smile and wave. and go to mand 's will smile and wave. and go to mandy's restaurant. _ will smile and wave. and go to mandy's restaurant. i- will smile and wave. and go to mandy's restaurant. i will- mandy's restaurant. i will definitely _ mandy's restaurant. i will definitely go, _ mandy's restaurant. i will definitely go, it _ mandy's restaurant. i will definitely go, it sounds i mandy's restaurant. i will- definitely go, it sounds exciting. eating out is such a luxury now but

where _ eating out is such a luxury now but where you — eating out is such a luxury now but where you can, please do go out and support— where you can, please do go out and support your — where you can, please do go out and support your local independents. and ou don't support your local independents. filc you don't have to support your local independents. fiic you don't have to wash up! support your local independents. and you don't have to wash up! thank- support your local independents. and j you don't have to wash up! thank you ve much you don't have to wash up! thank you very much for— you don't have to wash up! thank you very much for coming _ you don't have to wash up! thank you very much for coming on. _ both the last labour government and the conservative—lib dem coalition government after 2010 could have, and should have, done more for the victims of the post office horizon scandal. that's what conservative peer lord arbuthnot, former mp, told the official post office inqury today. it begs the question, doesn't it, if a politician with access to those in the corridors of power couldn't get successive governments to listen to them, what chance did postmasters themselves have? lord arbuthnot first learned of issues with the horizon system from postmasters in his constituency, including jo hamilton, who was falsely accused of stealing £36,000 from the branch she ran in south warnborough in hampshire. both featured in itv�*s mr bates versus the post office.

it is jaw—dropping least significant, thejudges have not only ruled thatjo and the others were wrongfully convicted but even worse, that the decision to prosecute them was so wrong that it amounts to a front of the conscious of the court. this has to be the widest miscarriage ofjustice in british legal history. it so moving, even though i've seen it few times. lord arbuthnotjoins us. thank you for being with us, i know it has been a long day but giving evidence today, finally, to the official inquiry, was that a moment for you? official inquiry, was that a moment for ou? �* �* . for you? i'm quite relieved it's over. for you? i'm quite relieved it's over- itut _ for you? i'm quite relieved it's over- itut it— for you? i'm quite relieved it's over. but it was _ for you? i'm quite relieved it's over. but it was a _ for you? i'm quite relieved it's over. but it was a moment, i for you? i'm quite relieved it's over. but it was a moment, to for you? i'm quite relieved it's i over. but it was a moment, to set out what has been going on for the last two decades or more now. and

i'm glad to have been able to do it. you said you were brushed off by labour ministers, then coalition ministers, so which politicians could have done more? shall]! ministers, so which politicians could have done more?- ministers, so which politicians could have done more? all of them. who? name — could have done more? all of them. who? name names! _ could have done more? all of them. who? name names! ok, _ could have done more? all of them. who? name names! ok, i— could have done more? all of them. who? name names! ok, i started i could have done more? all of them. | who? name names! ok, i started by writin: to who? name names! ok, i started by writing to peter _ who? name names! ok, i started by writing to peter mandelson, lord i writing to peter mandelson, lord mandelson, when he was secretary of state for business. he could have done more. he passed it on to his junior minister, pat mcfadden, he could have done more. at the problem was at that the government, i think it had been under a labour government, the government decided the post office was to be an arms length organisation so the ministers themselves were not going to take

any proper responsibility for this organisation that they owned. and that was a mantra which the labour ministers set out, which the lib dems ministers under the coalition pursued also. ed davey, jo swinson, norman lamb. and which the conservative ministers following the coalition, baroness —— neville rolfe etc, kelly tolhurst, they all pursue that as i think they were advised to pursue it by their civil servants. alan bates says he owes the civil servants are more than the ministers. i think he is probably right there. the trouble is civil servants don't have the ability to

answer, whereas ministers do. i mean, obviously we take what alan bates says as read, but they are ministers. they make their own decisions. yes, they take advice, but it is ministers who decide. yes. but it is ministers who decide. yes, what do you — but it is ministers who decide. yes, what do you want _ but it is ministers who decide. yes, what do you want me _ but it is ministers who decide. yes, what do you want me to _ but it is ministers who decide. ies what do you want me to say? but it is ministers who decide. yes, what do you want me to say? fine, | what do you want me to say? fine, let me ask — what do you want me to say? fine, let me ask you _ what do you want me to say? fine, let me ask you about _ what do you want me to say? fine, let me ask you about paula - what do you want me to say? fine, let me ask you about paula vinyls. | let me ask you about paula vinyls. most of us have a perception of her from the itv drama. brute most of us have a perception of her from the itv drama.— most of us have a perception of her from the itv drama. we heard some of the recordings — from the itv drama. we heard some of the recordings last _ from the itv drama. we heard some of the recordings last week. _ from the itv drama. we heard some of the recordings last week. we _ from the itv drama. we heard some of the recordings last week. we heard i the recordings last week. we heard that she herself was specifically told about the remote access that fujitsu, possibly the post office as well, that fujitsu had that two sub postmaster is' account. so fujitsu sat in their basement bunker and altered postmasters' accounts without keeping a record of what they were doing and without any

knowledge by the sub postmaster is as to what they were doing. that meant that the convictions being based on the idea that it must have been the sub postmaster is that because these losses were unsafe. and paula vennells knew about it. and paula vennells knew about it. and yet when we, the mp5, and the sub postmaster is asked paula vennells is remote access possible? we were told, know it is not. let me ask ou we were told, know it is not. let me ask you bluntly. _ we were told, know it is not. let me ask you bluntly, did _ we were told, know it is not. let me ask you bluntly, did she _ we were told, know it is not. let me ask you bluntly, did she lie - we were told, know it is not. let me ask you bluntly, did she lie to - we were told, know it is not. let me ask you bluntly, did she lie to you? | ask you bluntly, did she lie to you? yes. ~ :. ask you bluntly, did she lie to you? yes. ~ :, :, i. ~' ask you bluntly, did she lie to you? yes. ~ :, :, ,, :, :, | yes. what do you think about that? i think it is not — yes. what do you think about that? i think it is not very _ yes. what do you think about that? i think it is not very good. _ yes. what do you think about that? i think it is not very good. it _ yes. what do you think about that? i think it is not very good. it is - think it is not very good. it is absolutely shocking to leave the sub postmaster is convicted, humiliated

and destroyed in their own lives. you see the families broken up, sub postmasters going bankrupt, some of them taking their own lives, when them taking their own lives, when the post office new what it was doing. and it is beyond outrageous and it is the sort of thing that we all believed with our british system ofjustice all believed with our british system of justice that we are all believed with our british system ofjustice that we are so proud of would not and could not happen here. but it would and it could and it did and it has and we ought to feel ashamed of ourselves.- and it has and we ought to feel ashamed of ourselves. paula vennells is due to give — ashamed of ourselves. paula vennells is due to give evidence _ ashamed of ourselves. paula vennells is due to give evidence next _ ashamed of ourselves. paula vennells is due to give evidence next month, i is due to give evidence next month, if i recall correctly. sub postmasters are telling me and newsnight and other programs that they still have not had a compensation offer yet and some of those that have had an offer say it

is absolutely insulting. that is at the hands of the government. are you confident the government is handling the compensation side of things appropriately? l the compensation side of things appropriately?— appropriately? i think the government, _ appropriately? i think the government, having i appropriately? i think the | government, having come appropriately? i think the i government, having come late appropriately? i think the - government, having come late to appropriately? i think the _ government, having come late to the party, is struggling to break through the bureaucracy that goes with spending taxpayers' money. it is concentrating at the moment on overturning hundreds and hundreds of convictions by an unheard—of piece of legislation that does the overturning of convictions in parliament rather than in the courts. 0nce those convictions are overturned, it will open the taps of the redress needs to be paid to those newly unconvicted sub

postmasters. but the rest of it, the government has got to be generous. i sit on the horizon compensation advisory board and we are constantly questioning the government about this in order to speed things up, to get the payments as generous as the british public would like is to be. it is taking time, too long. thank ou ve it is taking time, too long. thank you very much — it is taking time, too long. thank you very much for _ it is taking time, too long. thank you very much for talking - it is taking time, too long. thank you very much for talking to i it is taking time, too long. thank you very much for talking to ourl you very much for talking to our audience, lord arbuthnot. at the start of this week, donald trump declined to support any new national law setting limits on abortions across the united states. my my view is now we have abortion where everybody wanted it from a legal standpoint, the states will determine by vote or legislation or perhaps both and whatever they decide must be the law of the land, in this case the law of the state. many states will be different, many

will have a different number of weeks or some will have more conservative than others and that is what they will be. at the end of the day this is all about the will of the people. you must follow your heart, or in many cases your religion or yourfaith. going against the views of many abortion opponents in his republican party, the former president appears to be looking for a way to neutralise an issue ahead of november's presidential election perhaps because it's helped democrats overperform in local and state elections since the us supreme court overturned a landmark legal decision that protected reproductive rights nationwide. mr trump's view as you heard in that clip? let individual states handle the issue. a day later, arizona did just that. its supreme court resurrected an 1864 law that bans nearly all abortions, except to save the life of the mother. abortion access is broadly supported among the american public. let's speak to frank lutz, a pollster and communications strategist, and rina shah,

political analyst and former republican party senior congressional advisor. thank you both. frank lutz first, what is mister trump was my strategy? what is mister trump was my strate: ? what is mister trump was my strategy?— what is mister trump was my strate: ? , :, , , strategy? the strategy was very smart at the — strategy? the strategy was very smart at the time, _ strategy? the strategy was very smart at the time, which - strategy? the strategy was very smart at the time, which was i strategy? the strategy was very smart at the time, which was to strategy? the strategy was very i smart at the time, which was to give states the right to give the determination, 50 states, 50 different choices depending on the voters. here is a problem, arizona did something extreme and they did something nobody expected them to do and it makes the abortion issue so much more important. you are correct, at the beginning of the segment, republicans have the advantage on inflation and on immigration, the only big issue that the democrats have the advantage right now is on abortion. make no mistake, there will be tens of thousands of young women who otherwise would not have voted in this election, they will participate because they believe they are defending the right to choose. rina

shah, defending the right to choose. rina shah. explain _ defending the right to choose. rina shah, explain from your point of view how much you think abortion is an issue ahead of this presidential election. :. , an issue ahead of this presidential election. :, , ,:,, :, election. certainly in the post real world we see _ election. certainly in the post real world we see abortion _ election. certainly in the post real world we see abortion to - election. certainly in the post real world we see abortion to be i election. certainly in the post real world we see abortion to be an i world we see abortion to be an galvanising issue. but republican women _ galvanising issue. but republican women are not a monolith. what i think— women are not a monolith. what i think is— women are not a monolith. what i think is going to happen is you are going _ think is going to happen is you are going to _ think is going to happen is you are going to have a severe segment of the party— going to have a severe segment of the party break away from the extreme — the party break away from the extreme and say we are concerned with what — extreme and say we are concerned with what these republican—led state legislatures are doing. they are going _ legislatures are doing. they are going beyond what the super republican voter wants. you saw that a few _ republican voter wants. you saw that a few days _ republican voter wants. you saw that a few days ago in florida where their— a few days ago in florida where their supreme court had to interpret what the _ their supreme court had to interpret what the legislator did with the fifth league ban. what we see is when _ fifth league ban. what we see is when abortion ends up as a constitutional question on the ballot. — constitutional question on the ballot, we see republicans lose. and now in— ballot, we see republicans lose. and now in arizona it seems the unthinkable has happened because this is— unthinkable has happened because this is what a lot of pro—choice

activists— this is what a lot of pro—choice activists warned about. it is a felony— activists warned about. it is a felony to _ activists warned about. it is a felony to perform an abortion. the attorney— felony to perform an abortion. the attorney general has stepped in and said she _ attorney general has stepped in and said she will not criminalise anybody _ said she will not criminalise anybody and the court has also said they are _ anybody and the court has also said they are giving it two weeks of a stay. _ they are giving it two weeks of a stay. but — they are giving it two weeks of a stay, but beyond that we need to go a step— stay, but beyond that we need to go a step further. even donald trump himself— a step further. even donald trump himself is— a step further. even donald trump himself is mixed up about this. the day before — himself is mixed up about this. the day before yesterday he said he was not for _ day before yesterday he said he was not for a _ day before yesterday he said he was not for a national ban. today he is saying _ not for a national ban. today he is saying arizona has gone a step too far and _ saying arizona has gone a step too far and something has to be done about— far and something has to be done about it. — far and something has to be done about it. he is trying to have his cake _ about it. he is trying to have his cake and — about it. he is trying to have his cake and eat it as well because he understands what is at play here. in arizona _ understands what is at play here. in arizona there are 1.6 million of reproductive age and this is not a joke. _ reproductive age and this is not a joke. these — reproductive age and this is not a joke. these are millions of lives we are talking — joke. these are millions of lives we are talking about and with no exceptions for incest and rape i think— exceptions for incest and rape i think we — exceptions for incest and rape i think we will see some interesting people _ think we will see some interesting people get to the polls who have not been there before.— people get to the polls who have not been there before. from donald trump was my point — been there before. from donald trump was my point of— been there before. from donald trump was my point of view— been there before. from donald trump was my point of view should _ been there before. from donald trump was my point of view should they i was my point of view should they shut up about the issue of abortion?