voice-over: this is bbc news. we'll have the headlines for you at the top of the hour, which is straight after this programme. welcome to hardtalk. i'm stephen sackur. there seems to be no end to the suffering of the people of zimbabwe. a prolonged drought is threatening to spread mass hunger in a country grimly familiar with political repression and economic chaos. but no amount of popular dissatisfaction seems to loosen the grip of the ruling party, zanu—pf. my guest is one of zimbabwe's highest—profile opposition figures, job sikhala, recently released from almost 600 days in prison without trial. is real change ever going to come to his homeland?

job sikhala, in a location that we have agreed not to reveal, welcome to hardtalk. thank you very much, steve, for your invitation to this important interview. well, it's important to have you on this show. you emerged from more than 1.5 years of pre—trial detention in zimbabwe earlier this year. we saw photographs of you last year, shackled, as you were given healthcare while still in detention. i just wonder what impact

that experience has had on you physically and mentally. it really affected me to the most difficult depth. i have been maltreated as if i'm a terrorist. i was not given the basic standards that are granted to prisoners, in terms of both international law and in terms of domestic law. the way i was maltreated is that they never wanted me to get peace. and, also, they never wanted me to get on with my proper mental strength. so that's why they have been shackling me at every turn. there is not any moment when i was visited at chikurubi maximum security prison when i was not shackled. however, i don't want

to continuously lament on this because there are several other zimbabweans who have gone through the worst treatment by the same regime that has been there since 1980, others who went as far as losing their lives, when they were in a democratic, in the democratic struggle, so... as you say, mr sikhala, as you just have said, there are opposition activists who have lost their lives in the recent past, including within the last year. i just wonder whether you were actually surprised when the court declared that you could be released, that you had already served enough time in prison and that your sentence was going to be suspended from now on and, therefore, you were free to go? were you actually surprised? i was not surprised on the basis that there was not any evidence that was produced in the court of law

during the period of my trial for them to procure a conviction. even the conviction which they procured, where they later gave me a suspended sentence, was a fake conviction, which was not informed in terms of the law. and the issue of video evidence which they relied upon is a well—defined jurisprudence in terms of the law. so, basically, my conviction was not in terms of the law, the regime procured a fake conviction against me, which i still stand and still believe that i am innocent of the allegations which they were alleging against me. secondly, they realised that they could not keep me in prison on the basis that this issue was no longer sustainable, both in terms of domestic and international clamour by people of goodwill who have noticed and realised that my persecution was purely political,

it had nothing to do with the law and. . . not just that. .. right, we've agreed... we've agreed, mr sikhala, we've agreed with you not to reveal your current location, but can you just simply tell me this — are you inside zimbabwe or outside right now? i am currently receiving medical treatment after my incarceration in prison overseas, out of zimbabwe. and i am recovering very well. of course, there are medical issues that were discovered on me. my doctors are tending to them diligently and i'm happy that there is great progress in as far as my health is concerned. isn't the truth that you emerged from prison in late january of this year, having gone into detention in 2022, you emerged to a much darker, more bleak political landscape from the point of view of your activism,

as an opponent of the ruling zanu—pf party? after all, while you were in detention, president mnangagwa was re—elected. his power looks more entrenched than ever and your own opposition ccc party has basically collapsed. yeah, very true that when i came out of prison, i found out that the regime has passed more repressive legislation in the form of the patriotic act, and also in the private voluntary organisation bill that they were introducing for them to curtail the operations of human rights organisations and other entities that were in pursuit of the public interest. also, secondly, i came out when there was complete, total closure of the political space in our nation.

our people are no longer able to breathe in as far as exercising their political rights in the nation is concerned. political space has been closed down. critics now have been abducted. some of them, you write them in the press and in other international reports. others lost their lives on the basis that... ..on the basis of their political beliefs... and on the question of president mnangagwa and his re—election, which, as i say, you were in detention during that election, what we saw were that international monitoring groups expressed serious concerns about that election, not least the southern africa development community delegation, represented and led by nevers mumba, a former zambian vice president. he said some aspects of this election fell short of the requirements

of the constitution of zimbabwe, the electoral act and the sadc�*s principles and guidelines governing genuinely democratic elections. so there were serious concerns, but, frankly, in the months since then, mnangagwa has entrenched his power. the southern african nations have basically congratulated him and accepted the election result. and you must feel that, frankly, you lost in terms of a campaign to topple him. that is the reason why he kept me in prison without any crime that i have committed in the nation. the strategy by the regime was that i was supposed to be eliminated from the election, from the electoral processes that were going to take place in august 2023. so they found an excuse of a matter where i was representing, as a legal practitioner, one of the persons who had been brutally murdered by the people, whom, in terms

of our own investigations, as the lawyer of the family, is that these people had political motivations, and the motivation came from the people who are anti—democratic, people who do not accept the diversity in our country, and also people who do not accept people to belong to the political organisations of their own choice. so it was a strategy for them to eliminate me from the elections. they were not sure of my reaction in the event of a rigged political outcome, like what happened in august when i was not there. but my point... crosstalk my point, mr sikhala, is that... ..after mnangagwa has finished this business of entrenching his power... yeah. ..he started interfering with the running of the opposition ccc political party. i found... when i went into prison, i left a functioning and running political party.

but when i came out onjanuary 30, 2024, i found out a political party that is splintered into several factions and claimants to the authority of the organisation. so it was very disappointing that the political party that i suffered for in prison, when i came out, it was no longer in existence. now, if you wouldn't mind... if you wouldn't mind, mr sikhala, you need to keep your answers as brief as you can, cos i need to ask you some questions. you've raised a very important point about the main opposition party, of which you were a seniorfigure, the citizens coalition for change. as you say, you emerged from prison to find the party in chaos. it had a new secretary—general, sengezo tshabangu, who basically said that a whole host of your own party's mps who'd been elected in august were not legitimate. and he wanted by—elections to remove some of

his own party members. and as a result of that, zanu—pf won a significant number of new seats, which gave them a two—thirds majority in the zimbabwean lower house of parliament. and as a result of that, nelson chamisa, the former leader of the ccc, seems to have abandoned the party. you've described it as nothing more than a carcass. so can we take it that the ccc is now dead? as far as i'm concerned, like what i said when i came out of prison, i did not want to associate myself with either of the splinter groups in the ccc political party on the basis that you would not know the origins of the conflict that has led the organisation to split into four different political factions. i would not have followed

any one of those factions on the basis that i was not aware of the reasons why the political party i left was now into disarray and also into different pieces like that. why, mr sikhala, please tell me simply why has the main zimbabwean opposition party collapsed in such spectacular fashion? should we blame nelson chamisa for creating a party that didn't really have a constitution and a proper national organisation? or should we blame zanu—pf? because mr chamisa claims this is all the result of infiltration from the ruling party? and he said that he wouldn't swim in a river full of hungry crocodiles. what is your explanation? despite the crocodiles' failure to run the nation and also bringing reforms that are required for the people of zimbabwe, he has expertise in terms of infiltrating and destroying opposition

political organisations. it did not start yesterday with the ccc, but even during the period of before independence, his fingerprints are found all over the destabilisations that were happening in zapu. his agenda and objective was to obliterate and completely destroy zapu from the political face of zimbabwe. even during the period of the mdc, we know the role that he has played in terms of bringing confusion within the mdc political superstructure. not one leader... no, hang on, hang on. i'll be honest with you, mr sikhala, we don't have time to go through the whole history of opposition movements since 1980. we simply don't have time. but i would like you to address this question — do you think the opposition movement right now is failing the people of zimbabwe, who face so many enormous economic problems and systemic political repression?

the opposition political parties in zimbabwe is not...groupings. it is the mindset of the people of zimbabwe. what is in the mind of the people of zimbabwe is the opposition. they despise... they despise and loathe the current regime in an unprecedented manner. there is deep discontent within the masses of our people that cannot be washed away. the groupings are not the opposition. the opposition is the mindset and what is in the mind of an individual zimbabwean. the opposition within the mindset of the generality of our masses is that it is organised. it is not going to make any retreat. as faras the... what zimbabweans... if i may say so, mr sikhala, what zimbabweans want, i think, is pretty straightforward and simple answers to straightforward

and simple questions. this question is simple — are you and nelson chamisa going to work together to try and create a new political movement? steve, my brother steve, i don't think i want to be here to bother myself on talking about individuals. what i'm concerned more is about the hunger that is striking the nation of zimbabwe. i am concerned about the human rights abuses that are continuously being perpetrated against the defenceless people of zimbabwe. unemployment at the present moment in zimbabwe is 85%. the people who are living under extreme poverty, 49%. i will not be able and prepared to dwell on individuals. i think if you have got any questions about nelson chamisa. .. but the point, surely... ..the best way you can get your answer during this programme... i absolutely take your point about the depth

of the economic crisis facing zimbabweans today. and, indeed, there are multiple reports of hunger spreading across parts of the nation, involving perhaps 2 million or more zimbabweans, as the drought in your country worsens agricultural situation. i understand the depth of the crisis, but you, if i may say so, have come out with a very ambitious programme for the future. you talk about a nationwide consultation with the people from the grassroots up. you say that you're going to create a national convention with up to 5,000 delegates who will tell us where they want zimbabwe to go politically. my question to you is — how can you actually deliver any of that when you talk about the scale of political repression, we see the human rights watch and other human rights groups reporting on repression at every level in zimbabwean society? how can you possibly deliver this new national movement?

we will assert our rights. we will never retreat from asserting our rights as zimbabweans. we are entitled, in terms of both domestic and international law, for us to engage in legitimate and constitutional political activity. there is not any reason why we should be stopped for us to pursue a mass consultative process in zimbabwe, because what i observe when i come out of the prison is that there was a divorce between the leadership and also the masses of our country. the masses of our country were no longer the owners of the mass democratic struggle in our country. the masses became subordinate to the struggle in zimbabwe. but my understanding is that every successful fight against a repressive regime and any tyrant and dictatorship in the history of mankind is that the masses with

the courage of the destiny of their own country, so we are now engaging our masses... hang on. be realistic. we are now giving them back the power which we took away from them. but be realistic with me, mr sikhala. i am mindful that your nickname, for many zimbabweans, is �*wiwa', because you model yourself on the nigerian environmental and human rights activist ken saro—wiwa. but we know what happened to mr saro—wiwa. he was eventually executed by the military dictatorship in nigeria back in 1995. as you've pointed out the repressive human rights record — the fact that opposition activists disappear, some of them have been killed — if you go back to zimbabwe — cos you're not there right now — isn't the reality that if you continue with the language you're using with me, you may well disappear yourself? the struggle for the freedom of the masses of our people is not one we can relent upon.

we are... like what i have been saying several times, i am prepared to die for the causes that i believe in. i know the kind of the regime that i'm dealing with and also the way how they persecuted me when i was in prison, not only once. don't forget that i have been arrested 68 times on different allegations, being persecuted by the same regime. but i cannot relent at this hour because the people of our nation want their freedom. they want themselves to be able to exercise their democratic right to choose the leaders of their controls. there is no way we can be afraid of death when death has visited so many people in the history of the struggle of the people of zimbabwe. i think you know... when so many... hang on.

when so many of your people, as you have rightly pointed out, are living in the most desperate economic circumstances, they don't have jobs, we see thousands and thousands of them still trying to flee zimbabwe to get to south africa and other countries, when they are in that position, how do you feel about neighbouring leaders — like president ramaphosa in south africa — actually congratulating mnangagwa on his election victory? and how do you feel when you see the americans and the europeans impose targeted sanctions, which don't really appear to be having much effect, on zimbabwe? and you see china and russia deepening their very warm economic and political relationships with the mnangagwa government? how do you feel about that international response? the issues that you asked me about the south african president, cyril ramaphosa,

coming to congratulate emmerson mnangagwa on the rigged electoral outcome, the truth of the matter is that we have been able to start the history of our own mass democratic struggle since 1999, and we have noticed and identified the role which the anc and also consecutive anc governments in south africa have played to undermine the mass democratic struggle in our country. don't forget that these are the same people who forced the global political agreement on the people of zimbabwe when robert mugabe and zanu—pf were defeated in an election. so, to be clear, are you saying... the anc�*s goal has always been to undermine the people of zimbabwe. i need to be very clear with you because we're almost out of time. are you saying that, even now, you believe the anc government is undermining you and the zimbabwean opposition? fikile mbalula, the

secretary general of the anc, he has been spewing a lot of controversial statements against our people and also against the opposition forces in our country. so there is no doubt that it is the anc policy for them to undermine the democratic forces in the country of zimbabwe. since the period of president thabo mbeki, we have seen what they have done in our country. we have seen how they have undermined the will of the people. so, the truth of the matter is that it is the anc�*s policy for them to undermine the people of zimbabwe in the pursuit of their own freedom. well, that's quite a charge and it's a charge that, at some point, we may well be able to put to officials in the south african government. they're not here to respond to that. before we end, though, i come back to this notion that, as you emerged from detention, and now you're trying to lead a new movement in zimbabwe, you are facing impossible odds. let'sjust think

about one more thing. because of what happened in a bunch of by—elections recently, the ruling party, zanu—pf, now controls a two—thirds majority in the lower house. they can, at least in theory, try to push through a change in the constitution to allow president mnangagwa to run for a third term. if that happens, what happens to zimbabwe and to the people that you are trying to represent? that is why we are engaging in the process of consulting the people of zimbabwe for them to own the mass democratic struggle in our country. what we will do is that we will go back to our people and consult them on the form of reaction and action we should take. and they will give us the way forward on how to respond. if the third term agenda is tabled in zimbabwe, we'll go back to the people, we will consult them. we will ask them to give us the way forward, the way forward which they will carry

themselves out for them to make sure what they want is going to be done. but in a word, the struggle goes on? the struggle goes on, unabated. job sikhala, we have to end there. i thank you forjoining me on hardtalk. thank you very much, stephen sackur, for this great interview. hello there. it is not a heat wave but there is some warmer weather to come over the next few days. how long it will last, we will look at that in a moment. we have winds moving

away, bringing in whether runs from the atlantic. 0n wednesday, we had cloud and rain. that's tending to move its way southwards overnight. so most places are going to be dry on thursday. there will be some sunshine around as well in those southwesterly winds. more cloud, though, likely in southernmost parts of england and wales. a few spots of rain near the south coast. but for many places, it will be dry with the sunshine and those southwesterly winds, warmer, temperatures may be making 19—20 degrees across lincolnshire. into east anglia as well. weather fronts are still on the scene, they will return back northwards again on friday around the top of the area of high pressure. so we are going to see more cloud and some patchy rain coming into northern ireland, heading toward scotland. maybe the far north of england as well. further south, after a bit of a cloudy start, it should brighten up. sunshine coming through. those same southwesterly winds. stealing warm air.

could make 18 celsius in scotland where we sheltered from most of that rain across some eastern parts of england. 20 degrees is quite likely to end the week. is that warm weather going to last into the weekend? you can see some colder weather here into the northwest. the wind direction changing following this weather front in particular. now, that weather front really isn't bringing much rain at all, it's going to bring with it this band of cloud, but it is the boundary between the last of the warmer air that we've got across the south and the colder air that is further north with showers that could be on the heavy side. by the time we get to saturday afternoon, it's 12 degrees in glasgow, still 20 degrees there in london. that may well be the last of that warmer air, because that weather front is going to move to the south of us. we're all in that cooler air stream, the winds more from the west or northwest and we will see some sunshine. increasingly, in scotland and northern ireland, we are going to see some

showers, maybe even some longer spells of rain, even a touch of wintriness over the tops of the mountains. for england and wales, the whole sunday will be dry. a few showers coming in off the irish sea. those temperatures will be lower in the southeast of england. and it will be low pressure that is dominant for the start of next week, and that's bringing with it some stronger winds, away from scotland probably, but those stronger winds are going to blow in a mixture of sunshine and some fairly frequent showers, some of them heavy with hail and thunder and a bit of wintriness over the tops of the hills and mountains because temperatures are continuing to drop on monday. we've got 10 or 11 celsius in scotland and northern ireland at best. let's look further ahead because that area of low pressure is going to move away. for a while, we've got the northwesterly wind and high pressure will start to build in from the atlantic. that is going to be more damage across england and wales. there will still be some weather systems running around

the top of the high, bringing a little bit of rain into northern areas. but with us, changing the wind direction, moving pressure away, bringing in the high pressure, temperature should be starting to rise. you can just about see that here. for much of england and wales, the outlook is looking drier with some sunshine. further north for scotland and northern ireland, a bit of rain at times, but at least those temperatures should be rising longer term.

live from london. this is bbc news.

hamas's political leader says the jihadist�*s groups negotiating position will not change following the killing of three of his sons by israel. south korea's opposition strike a major blow to president yoon�*s authority after a landslide victory in wednesday's parliamentary elections. a vietnamese property tycoon could face the death penalty after being accused of looting billions of dollars from its largest banks. hello and welcome to bbc news. i'm lukwesa burak. the political leader of hamas, ismail haniyeh, says the jihadist group's negotiating position will not change following the killing of three of his sons by israel. they were killed in an air strike in central gaza.

israeli media is reporting that the prime minister,