wanted to try to turn royal mail we wanted to try to turn royal mail into ajohn we wanted to try to turn royal mail into a john lewis partnership, we wanted to try to turn royal mail into ajohn lewis partnership, we wanted 20% of the company to be owned by our people, and i include in that sub—postmasters, we valued the sub—postmasters, alan is an ex retailer understood the importance of front—line managers, and we wanted the sub—postmasters to actually have an ownership of the post office, so we discussed things like that but obviously we discussed funding. at the same time, the post office had very regular meetings with shareholder executives, but separate team within that, and that was the constant day—to—day on post office business, closure programmes, revenue, all of those things. so a parallel, if you like, conversation going on. parallel, if you like, conversation hoin on, . parallel, if you like, conversation auoin on. ~ . ., parallel, if you like, conversation hoin on, . ., ., parallel, if you like, conversation aaoin on. ~ ., ., going on. was anyone from royal mail grou going on. was anyone from royal mail grow) present — going on. was anyone from royal mail groun present any _ going on. was anyone from royal mail group present any of— going on. was anyone from royal mail

group present any of those _ going on. was anyone from royal mail group present any of those meetings i group present any of those meetings or communications between the shareholder executive and the post office? _ shareholder executive and the post office? no shareholder executive and the post office? ., ., , , office? no doubt some, but probably not all, office? no doubt some, but probably not all. and — office? no doubt some, but probably not all, and some _ office? no doubt some, but probably not all, and some would _ office? no doubt some, but probably not all, and some would have - office? no doubt some, but probably not all, and some would have been i not all, and some would have been jonathan evans, i think. 50 not all, and some would have been jonathan evans, i think.— jonathan evans, i think. 50 as you described it _ jonathan evans, i think. 50 as you described it there _ jonathan evans, i think. 50 as you described it there were _ described it there were essentially two parallel roots back to government?— you tell us in your statement the shareholder executive did not regularly attend those meetings, is that right? regularly attend those meetings, is that riuht? , regularly attend those meetings, is that right? yes. wires that? regularly attend those meetings, is that right?- wires that?- that right? yes. wires that? the times i remember _ that right? yes. wires that? the times i remember them - that right? yes. wires that? the | times i remember them attending that right? yes. wires that? the - times i remember them attending were as i mentioned, around potential ownership changes. they were around the solvency debate and the sub studies. that always had to be... that had to be very carefully done from a royal mail point of view. there is had to be commercial loans

at competitive rates.— at competitive rates. cutting throu~h at competitive rates. cutting through it. _ at competitive rates. cutting through it, where _ at competitive rates. cutting through it, where they - at competitive rates. cutting through it, where they are l at competitive rates. cutting - through it, where they are entitled to attend? — through it, where they are entitled to attend? , ., , , to attend? they were absolutely entitled to attend _ to attend? they were absolutely entitled to attend every - to attend? they were absolutelyi entitled to attend every meeting to attend? they were absolutely - entitled to attend every meeting but rarely did except for those really big topics of funding, solvency and ownership. find big topics of funding, solvency and ownershi -. �* ., ., , ownership. and that was their choice, ownership. and that was their choice. is _ ownership. and that was their choice, is that _ ownership. and that was their choice, is that right? - ownership. and that was their choice, is that right? that - ownership. and that was their| choice, is that right? that was their choice, _ choice, is that right? that was their choice, yes. _ choice, is that right? that was their choice, yes. what - choice, is that right? that was their choice, yes. what about | their choice, yes. what about attendance — their choice, yes. what about attendance of _ their choice, yes. what about attendance of the _ their choice, yes. what about | attendance of the shareholder executive at board meetings? during m time, executive at board meetings? during my time. they _ executive at board meetings? during my time. they did — executive at board meetings? during my time, they did not _ executive at board meetings? during my time, they did not do _ executive at board meetings? during my time, they did not do that, - executive at board meetings? during my time, they did not do that, nor i my time, they did not do that, nor did they have a representative on the board during my time. what did they have a representative on the board during my time. what was the board during my time. what was the reason for _ the board during my time. what was the reason for that? _ the board during my time. what was the reason for that? i _ the board during my time. what was the reason for that? i don't - the board during my time. what was the reason for that? i don't know, i the reason for that? i don't know, ou the reason for that? i don't know, you would — the reason for that? i don't know, you would have — the reason for that? i don't know, you would have to _ the reason for that? i don't know, you would have to ask _ the reason for that? i don't know, you would have to ask them. - the reason for that? i don't know, i you would have to ask them. finally, lease, you would have to ask them. finally, please. you — you would have to ask them. finally, please. you tell _ you would have to ask them. finally, please, you tell us _ you would have to ask them. finally, please, you tell us in _ you would have to ask them. finally, please, you tell us in your— you would have to ask them. finally, please, you tell us in your witness i please, you tell us in your witness statement — please, you tell us in your witness statement that your objective in your period of office was to deliver a better— your period of office was to deliver a better group for all stakeholders. would _ a better group for all stakeholders. would you — a better group for all stakeholders. would you agree that so far as this inquiry— would you agree that so far as this inquiry is _ would you agree that so far as this inquiry is concerned, that objective would _ inquiry is concerned, that objective would include treating sub—postmasters as trusted trading partners? _ sub—postmasters as trusted trading

partners? i — sub-postmasters as trusted trading artners? ., sub-postmasters as trusted trading partners?_ not- partners? i would indeed. not assuming _ partners? i would indeed. not assuming that _ partners? i would indeed. not assuming that they _ partners? i would indeed. not assuming that they were - partners? i would indeed. not assuming that they were on i partners? iwould indeed. not. assuming that they were on the partners? iwould indeed. not- assuming that they were on the take or some _ assuming that they were on the take or some of— assuming that they were on the take or some of them were on the take? no, i_ or some of them were on the take? no, ithink— or some of them were on the take? no, i think some of the language i have heard over the last few weeks is deplorable. have heard over the last few weeks is deplorable-— have heard over the last few weeks is deplorable. were you aware of the removal of the _ is deplorable. were you aware of the removal of the facility _ is deplorable. were you aware of the removal of the facility for _ removal of the facility for sub—postmasters to query losses that were attributed to them by the computer system? no. were attributed to them by the computer system?— were attributed to them by the computer system? no. i have racked m brain computer system? no. i have racked my brain on — computer system? no. i have racked my brain on that _ computer system? no. i have racked my brain on that and _ computer system? no. i have racked my brain on that and i _ computer system? no. i have racked my brain on that and i genuinely - my brain on that and i genuinely don't remember that coming to the board, no. ~ ., ,, don't remember that coming to the board, no. ~ ., i. ., ., board, no. would you agree that the removal of that _ board, no. would you agree that the removal of that function _ board, no. would you agree that the removal of that function was - removal of that function was inconsistent with treating them as trusted _ inconsistent with treating them as trusted trading partners? | inconsistent with treating them as trusted trading partners?- trusted trading partners? i don't know the detail _ trusted trading partners? i don't know the detail of _ trusted trading partners? i don't know the detail of it. _ trusted trading partners? i don't know the detail of it. from - trusted trading partners? i don't know the detail of it. from the l know the detail of it. from the sounds of it, i would agree with you. it sounds of it, i would agree with ou. . . sounds of it, i would agree with 0“. ., , ., sounds of it, i would agree with 0“. ., ., sounds of it, i would agree with ou. ., ., ., you. it was a form of requiring them to -a for you. it was a form of requiring them to pay for all—

you. it was a form of requiring them to pay for all losses _ you. it was a form of requiring them to pay for all losses attributed - you. it was a form of requiring them to pay for all losses attributed to . to pay for all losses attributed to their— to pay for all losses attributed to their branch by a computer, without their branch by a computer, without the facility — their branch by a computer, without the facility for them to query or even _ the facility for them to query or even to— the facility for them to query or even to investigate how that loss had occurred. you, i suspect, have read _ had occurred. you, i suspect, have read some — had occurred. you, i suspect, have read some of— had occurred. you, i suspect, have read some of the judgments of the courts— read some of the judgments of the courts of— read some of the judgments of the courts of the past few years concerning the horizon system. they have made it — concerning the horizon system. they have made it very _ concerning the horizon system. iis: have made it very clear concerning the horizon system. iie have made it very clear in concerning the horizon system. i"ie1: have made it very clear in terms of the failures, in terms of disclosure.— the failures, in terms of disclosure. ., ., , , , disclosure. the horizons issue judgment _ disclosure. the horizons issue judgment of _ disclosure. the horizons issue judgment of 2019 _ disclosure. the horizons issue judgment of 2019 sets - disclosure. the horizons issue judgment of 2019 sets out. disclosure. the horizons issue judgment of 2019 sets out a l disclosure. the horizons issue - judgment of 2019 sets out a series, and it— judgment of 2019 sets out a series, and it is— judgment of 2019 sets out a series, and it is into— judgment of 2019 sets out a series, and it is into double figures, of defects— and it is into double figures, of defects in— and it is into double figures, of defects in horizon which were prevalent and were known about by the post _ prevalent and were known about by the post office during your seven year tenure. the post office during your seven yeartenure. looking the post office during your seven year tenure. looking back, who is responsible — year tenure. looking back, who is responsible for the fact that none

of that— responsible for the fact that none of that on— responsible for the fact that none of that on your account was escalated to you or your board? i escalated to you or your board? i am _ escalated to you or your board? i am not — escalated to you or your board? i am not sure it is fair or right for me to speculate on something as important as this. all i can say from what i remember at the time is that it did not get up to the areas that it did not get up to the areas that i have mentioned earlier. looking back with hindsight now, clearly at a certain level in the post office it went no further. this ha--ened post office it went no further. this happened in _ post office it went no further. this happened in a _ post office it went no further. this happened in a sense on your watch. it happened in a sense on your watch. it did _ happened in a sense on your watch. it did. ., , ., ., ., , ., it did. you must have had a period of self reflection _ it did. you must have had a period of self reflection and _ it did. you must have had a period of self reflection and thought - it did. you must have had a period of self reflection and thought at i of self reflection and thought at what _ of self reflection and thought at what went wrong. what conclusions, if any, _ what went wrong. what conclusions, if any, did _ what went wrong. what conclusions, if any, did you arrive at? | if any, did you arrive at? i mentioned in my statement... you know, i can genuinely say it is one of the toughest jobs know, i can genuinely say it is one of the toughestjobs i've ever done,

from a terrible starting point and the degree of difficulty in making change in the royal mail. i do look back and wonder, as we talked about extensively earlier, whether the structure exacerbated the problem is, for want of a better word. i can see that there was a lack of transparency now in the post office. i had assumed they were making the same strides that we were in the company. and at the time, what i don't understand now is why people, it seems like a perfectly normal thing to do, if you were worried about the performance or you thought there were issues, why you wouldn't get someone from the outside in to look at that and give you a genuine, open, independent view of what the problem was. i can see that there were mistakes and whilst i used to

like to look back on my time as it being very hard but we made a lot of progress, clearly it is impossible to do that now without feeling that it's in large part tainted by this, for obvious reasons.— it's in large part tainted by this, for obvious reasons. thank you, those are _ for obvious reasons. thank you, those are the _ for obvious reasons. thank you, those are the questions - for obvious reasons. thank you, those are the questions i - for obvious reasons. thank you, those are the questions i ask. i for obvious reasons. thank you, - those are the questions i ask. there are two— those are the questions i ask. there are two lots— those are the questions i ask. there are two lots of participant questions of no more than five questions _ questions of no more than five questions each. we will start with mr maloney, if that is possible. thank— mr maloney, if that is possible. thank you. _ mr maloney, if that is possible. thank you, sir. two matters, please. earty— thank you, sir. two matters, please. early in _ thank you, sir. two matters, please. early in the _ thank you, sir. two matters, please. early in the questioning _ thank you, sir. two matters, please. early in the questioning of— thank you, sir. two matters, please. early in the questioning of you - thank you, sir. two matters, please. early in the questioning of you by- early in the questioning of you by jason— early in the questioning of you by jason beer— early in the questioning of you by jason beer this— early in the questioning of you by jason beer this afternoon, - early in the questioning of you by jason beer this afternoon, you i early in the questioning of you byl jason beer this afternoon, you are taken _ jason beer this afternoon, you are taken to— jason beer this afternoon, you are taken to audit _ jason beer this afternoon, you are taken to audit risk _ jason beer this afternoon, you are taken to audit risk and _ jason beer this afternoon, you are taken to audit risk and compliance committee — taken to audit risk and compliance committee minutes. _ taken to audit risk and compliance committee minutes. prosecutionsj taken to audit risk and compliance - committee minutes. prosecutions were referred _ committee minutes. prosecutions were referred to _ committee minutes. prosecutions were referred to in _ committee minutes. prosecutions were referred to in those _ committee minutes. prosecutions were referred to in those minutes, _ referred to in those minutes, numbers— referred to in those minutes, numbers of— referred to in those minutes, numbers of prosecutions, - referred to in those minutes, i numbers of prosecutions, cuts referred to in those minutes, - numbers of prosecutions, cuts to the business _ numbers of prosecutions, cuts to the business and — numbers of prosecutions, cuts to the business and so _ numbers of prosecutions, cuts to the business and so on. _ numbers of prosecutions, cuts to the business and so on. your— numbers of prosecutions, cuts to the business and so on. your view- numbers of prosecutions, cuts to the business and so on. your view was i business and so on. your view was that the _ business and so on. your view was that the discussions _ business and so on. your view was that the discussions to _ business and so on. your view was that the discussions to which - business and so on. your view was| that the discussions to which those entries— that the discussions to which those entries referred _ that the discussions to which those entries referred must _ that the discussions to which those entries referred must have - that the discussions to which those entries referred must have related| entries referred must have related solely— entries referred must have related solely to— entries referred must have related solely to royal _ entries referred must have related solely to royal mail _ entries referred must have related solely to royal mail prosecutions. | entries referred must have relatedl solely to royal mail prosecutions. i think solely to royal mail prosecutions. think so, yes. solely to royal mail prosecutions. i

think so, yes. one _ solely to royal mail prosecutions. i think so, yes. one of— solely to royal mail prosecutions. i think so, yes. one of the _ solely to royal mail prosecutions. i think so, yes. one of the reasons l think so, yes. one of the reasons for that was _ think so, yes. one of the reasons for that was nobody _ think so, yes. one of the reasons for that was nobody from - think so, yes. one of the reasons for that was nobody from the - think so, yes. one of the reasons| for that was nobody from the post office _ for that was nobody from the post office was — for that was nobody from the post office was present _ for that was nobody from the post office was present at _ for that was nobody from the post office was present at the - for that was nobody from the post office was present at the meetingj office was present at the meeting when _ office was present at the meeting when they— office was present at the meeting when they were _ office was present at the meeting when they were discussed? - office was present at the meeting when they were discussed? it - office was present at the meeting when they were discussed? it was also because _ when they were discussed? it was also because they _ when they were discussed? it was also because they were _ when they were discussed? it was also because they were referred l when they were discussed? it was | also because they were referred to as royal mail personnel, if i remember, and that is not how sub—postmasters would be referred to. i sub-postmasters would be referred to. . �* ., to. i see. at the time of the meeting _ to. i see. at the time of the meeting about _ to. i see. at the time of the meeting about which - to. i see. at the time of the meeting about which those | to. i see. at the time of the - meeting about which those minutes were prepared, _ meeting about which those minutes were prepared, was _ meeting about which those minutes were prepared, was it— meeting about which those minutes were prepared, was it post- meeting about which those minutes were prepared, was it post office i were prepared, was it post office legal— were prepared, was it post office legal department— were prepared, was it post office legal department that _ were prepared, was it post office legal department that conducted | were prepared, was it post office - legal department that conducted post office prosecutions _ legal department that conducted post office prosecutions or— legal department that conducted post office prosecutions or royal _ legal department that conducted post office prosecutions or royal mail? - legal department that conducted post office prosecutions or royal mail? i. office prosecutions or royal mail? thought it was post office. if i suggested to you that post office only took— suggested to you that post office only took over _ suggested to you that post office only took over prosecutions - suggested to you that post office only took over prosecutions after| only took over prosecutions after separation — only took over prosecutions after separation of _ only took over prosecutions after separation of royal— only took over prosecutions after separation of royal mail- only took over prosecutions after| separation of royal mail holdings and post — separation of royal mail holdings and post office _ separation of royal mail holdings and post office limited _ separation of royal mail holdings and post office limited in - separation of royal mail holdings and post office limited in 2012, i and post office limited in 2012, would _ and post office limited in 2012, would you — and post office limited in 2012, would you be _ and post office limited in 2012, would you be able _ and post office limited in 2012, would you be able to _ and post office limited in 2012, would you be able to disagree? | and post office limited in 2012,| would you be able to disagree? i don't would you be able to disagree? don't recall, i am not sure i would you be able to disagree?“ don't recall, i am not sure i would be able to disagree, no. so don't recall, i am not sure i would be able to disagree, no.— be able to disagree, no. so you don't know _ be able to disagree, no. so you don't know who _ be able to disagree, no. so you don't know who was _ be able to disagree, no. so you i don't know who was responsible, be able to disagree, no. so you - don't know who was responsible, you are not— don't know who was responsible, you are not sure — don't know who was responsible, you are not sure who— don't know who was responsible, you are not sure who was _ don't know who was responsible, you are not sure who was responsible - don't know who was responsible, you are not sure who was responsible for| are not sure who was responsible for post office _ are not sure who was responsible for post office prosecutions _

are not sure who was responsible for post office prosecutions at _ are not sure who was responsible for post office prosecutions at the - are not sure who was responsible for post office prosecutions at the time i post office prosecutions at the time at which _ post office prosecutions at the time at which those — post office prosecutions at the time at which those minutes _ post office prosecutions at the time at which those minutes were - at which those minutes were prepared? _ at which those minutes were prepared? l— at which those minutes were prepared?— at which those minutes were “reared? ., ,, . ., prepared? i assume the client would have been--- — prepared? i assume the client would have been... those _ prepared? i assume the client would have been... those minutes- prepared? i assume the client would have been... those minutes i - prepared? i assume the client would have been... those minutes i think. have been... those minutes i think referred to royal mail. just to make sure i understand the question... if you are asking me who was responsible for the post office, obviously the post office was the client. where they were sourcing that legal help from, i had also assumed it was partly internal, partly through a bit of royal mail resource and external resource as well, as far as i can recall.- well, as far as i can recall. thank ou. well, as far as i can recall. thank you- you — well, as far as i can recall. thank you- you have — well, as far as i can recall. thank you. you have just _ well, as far as i can recall. thank you. you have just agreed - well, as far as i can recall. thank you. you have just agreed that i well, as far as i can recall. thank i you. you have just agreed that post office _ you. you have just agreed that post office was _ you. you have just agreed that post office was facing _ you. you have just agreed that post office was facing real _ you. you have just agreed that post office was facing real financial- office was facing real financial difficulty— office was facing real financial difficulty on _ office was facing real financial difficulty on your _ office was facing real financial difficulty on your watch. - office was facing real financial difficulty on your watch.- difficulty on your watch. yes. insolvency — difficulty on your watch. yes. insolvency was _ difficulty on your watch. yes. insolvency was an _ difficulty on your watch. yes. insolvency was an issue. - difficulty on your watch. yes. | insolvency was an issue. from difficulty on your watch. yes. - insolvency was an issue. from before insolvency was an issue. from before i “oined insolvency was an issue. from before lioined and — insolvency was an issue. from before lioined and the _ insolvency was an issue. from before ijoined and the time _ insolvency was an issue. from before ijoined and the time i _ insolvency was an issue. from before i joined and the time i was _ insolvency was an issue. from before i joined and the time i was there. - ijoined and the time i was there. and those were factors everyone in the business — and those were factors everyone in the business were _ and those were factors everyone in the business were well— and those were factors everyone in the business were well aware - and those were factors everyone in the business were well aware of? l the business were well aware of? yes, _ the business were well aware of? yes. i_ the business were well aware of? yes. i believe _ the business were well aware of? yes, i believe so, _ the business were well aware of? yes, i believe so, yes. _ the business were well aware of? yes, i believe so, yes.— the business were well aware of? yes, i believe so, yes. anyone who ran read the _ yes, i believe so, yes. anyone who ran read the press _ yes, i believe so, yes. anyone who ran read the press reports. - yes, i believe so, yes. anyone who ran read the press reports. and -

yes, i believe so, yes. anyone who ran read the press reports. and it | ran read the press reports. and it was a _ ran read the press reports. and it was a business _ ran read the press reports. and it was a business critical _ ran read the press reports. and it was a business critical system - ran read the press reports. and it| was a business critical system at? yes _ was a business critical system at? yes if_ was a business critical system at? yes. ., ., ., ., , , yes. if horizon were to fail because it lacked integrity _ yes. if horizon were to fail because it lacked integrity and _ yes. if horizon were to fail because it lacked integrity and you - yes. if horizon were to fail because it lacked integrity and you had - yes. if horizon were to fail because it lacked integrity and you had to i it lacked integrity and you had to start _ it lacked integrity and you had to start from — it lacked integrity and you had to start from scratch, _ it lacked integrity and you had to start from scratch, it _ it lacked integrity and you had to start from scratch, it would - it lacked integrity and you had to start from scratch, it would havej start from scratch, it would have heightened — start from scratch, it would have heightened even _ start from scratch, it would have heightened even more _ start from scratch, it would have heightened even more so- start from scratch, it would have heightened even more so the . heightened even more so the commercial— heightened even more so the commercial survival - heightened even more so the commercial survival of- heightened even more so the commercial survival of the i heightened even more so the i commercial survival of the post office _ commercial survival of the post office at — commercial survival of the post office at that — commercial survival of the post office at that time, _ commercial survival of the post office at that time, wouldn't i commercial survival of the post | office at that time, wouldn't it? yes, _ office at that time, wouldn't it? yes. it— office at that time, wouldn't it? yes. it would _ office at that time, wouldn't it? yes, it would. but _ office at that time, wouldn't it? yes, it would. but that - office at that time, wouldn't it? yes, it would. but that would i office at that time, wouldn't it? i yes, it would. but that would have to be faced into, if there was a problem there. frankly, the issues we were facing on royal mail were in terms of cost and investment, far greater than that would have been. so it would have had to have been faced into and the post office, as actually in venice as the government showed, was not something the government was repaired to allow to fail. it was more a question of what was appropriate in terms of the revenue that was genuinely there versus the desire to obviously allow the post office to continue its really valued role as part of the social fabric of the uk. particularly for certain segments of

the population. in particularly for certain segments of the population-— the population. in hindsight, thou~h, the population. in hindsight, though. do _ the population. in hindsight, though. do you _ the population. in hindsight, though, do you think- the population. in hindsight, though, do you think that i though, do you think that essentially— though, do you think that essentially the _ though, do you think thatj essentially the existential though, do you think that _ essentially the existential problems that would — essentially the existential problems that would have _ essentially the existential problems that would have arisen _ essentially the existential problems that would have arisen around i essentially the existential problems that would have arisen around the l that would have arisen around the failure _ that would have arisen around the failure of— that would have arisen around the failure of horizon _ that would have arisen around the failure of horizon would _ that would have arisen around the failure of horizon would have i that would have arisen around the | failure of horizon would have been that would have arisen around the i failure of horizon would have been a disincentive — failure of horizon would have been a disincentive to— failure of horizon would have been a disincentive to those _ failure of horizon would have been a disincentive to those who _ failure of horizon would have been a disincentive to those who had - failure of horizon would have been a disincentive to those who had beenl disincentive to those who had been present— disincentive to those who had been present at— disincentive to those who had been present at the _ disincentive to those who had been present at the difficult _ disincentive to those who had been present at the difficult birth - disincentive to those who had been present at the difficult birth of i present at the difficult birth of horizon — present at the difficult birth of horizon too. _ present at the difficult birth of horizon too, as _ present at the difficult birth of horizon too, as it _ present at the difficult birth of horizon too, as it were, - present at the difficult birth of i horizon too, as it were, escalate that up. — horizon too, as it were, escalate that up. in— horizon too, as it were, escalate that up, in terms— horizon too, as it were, escalate that up, in terms of— horizon too, as it were, escalate that up, in terms of telling - horizon too, as it were, escalate that up, in terms of telling you l that up, in terms of telling you what _ that up, in terms of telling you what went— that up, in terms of telling you what went wrong _ that up, in terms of telling you what went wrong in _ that up, in terms of telling you what went wrong in the - that up, in terms of telling you what went wrong in the early. that up, in terms of telling you i what went wrong in the early days and what — what went wrong in the early days and what problems _ what went wrong in the early days and what problems there - what went wrong in the early days and what problems there had i what went wrong in the early days i and what problems there had been with horizon— and what problems there had been with horizon in— and what problems there had been with horizon in its— and what problems there had been with horizon in its development. and what problems there had beenl with horizon in its development and roll out— with horizon in its development and roll out before — with horizon in its development and roll out before you _ with horizon in its development and roll out before you arrived? - with horizon in its development and roll out before you arrived? [m i with horizon in its development and roll out before you arrived?- roll out before you arrived? i'm not sure i do agree _ roll out before you arrived? i'm not sure i do agree with _ roll out before you arrived? i'm not sure i do agree with that, - roll out before you arrived? i'm not sure i do agree with that, if - roll out before you arrived? i'm not sure i do agree with that, if i'm i sure i do agree with that, if i'm being honest. you know... iwasn't aware horizon had had this very difficult birth, for want of a better phrase. but all it systems

constantly need improving and fixing and the company in full mode was trying to fix everything. i do like to think, i know this is incredibly easy to say now, i hasten to add, that if we had been aware there was a real issue that needed fixing, i think collectively people would have figured out a way to tackle that. i think that case would have had to have been made by the government because in the end, it would have been more important to get it right. so i still believe, whatever the difficulties, if people genuinely felt there were problems, they should have said something. if people knew of the problems before you arrived. — people knew of the problems before you arrived, should _ people knew of the problems before you arrived, should they— people knew of the problems before you arrived, should they have - people knew of the problems before you arrived, should they have said i you arrived, should they have said something — you arrived, should they have said something about _ you arrived, should they have said something about that _ you arrived, should they have said something about that to _ you arrived, should they have said something about that to you? i. something about that to you? certainly wish they had. something about that to you? i certainly wish they had. thank| something about that to you? i i certainly wish they had. thank you.

i represent a number of sub—postmasters - i represent a number of sub—postmasters and i i represent a number of- sub—postmasters and mistresses. towards _ sub—postmasters and mistresses. towards the — sub—postmasters and mistresses. towards the end _ sub—postmasters and mistresses. towards the end of— sub—postmasters and mistresses. towards the end of your - sub—postmasters and mistresses. towards the end of your evidencei sub—postmasters and mistresses. i towards the end of your evidence is said this: _ towards the end of your evidence is said this: you — towards the end of your evidence is said this: you said _ towards the end of your evidence is said this: you said that _ towards the end of your evidence is said this: you said that if— towards the end of your evidence is said this: you said that if you - towards the end of your evidence is said this: you said that if you are i said this: you said that if you are worried — said this: you said that if you are worried about _ said this: you said that if you are worried about the _ said this: you said that if you are worried about the performance, i said this: you said that if you are i worried about the performance, if you thought — worried about the performance, if you thought there _ worried about the performance, if you thought there were _ worried about the performance, if you thought there were issues, i worried about the performance, if i you thought there were issues, why wouldn't _ you thought there were issues, why wouldn't you — you thought there were issues, why wouldn't you get _ you thought there were issues, why wouldn't you get someone - you thought there were issues, why wouldn't you get someone from i wouldn't you get someone from outside — wouldn't you get someone from outside in — wouldn't you get someone from outside in to— wouldn't you get someone from outside in to look— wouldn't you get someone from outside in to look at _ wouldn't you get someone from outside in to look at that - wouldn't you get someone from outside in to look at that and i wouldn't you get someone from i outside in to look at that and give you a _ outside in to look at that and give you a genuine _ outside in to look at that and give you a genuine independent - outside in to look at that and give you a genuine independent view. outside in to look at that and give l you a genuine independent view of what the _ you a genuine independent view of what the problem _ you a genuine independent view of what the problem was? _ you a genuine independent view of what the problem was? mr- you a genuine independent view of what the problem was? mr beer. you a genuine independent view of i what the problem was? mr beer was asking _ what the problem was? mr beer was asking questions _ what the problem was? mr beer was asking questions about _ what the problem was? mr beer was asking questions about difficulties i asking questions about difficulties and failures — asking questions about difficulties and failures in— asking questions about difficulties and failures in the _ asking questions about difficulties and failures in the horizon- asking questions about difficultiesl and failures in the horizon system. mr crozier. — and failures in the horizon system. mr crozier, there _ and failures in the horizon system. mr crozier, there were _ and failures in the horizon system. mr crozier, there were people i mr crozier, there were people raising — mr crozier, there were people raising queries— mr crozier, there were people raising queries about - mr crozier, there were people raising queries about the i raising queries about the performance _ raising queries about the performance of- raising queries about the performance of horizon, | raising queries about the i performance of horizon, they raising queries about the - performance of horizon, they were sub—postmasters, _ performance of horizon, they were sub—postmasters, mistresses, i performance of horizon, they were i sub—postmasters, mistresses, they were trying — sub—postmasters, mistresses, they were trying to — sub—postmasters, mistresses, they were trying to do _ sub—postmasters, mistresses, they were trying to do that _ sub—postmasters, mistresses, they were trying to do that in— sub—postmasters, mistresses, they were trying to do that in the - sub—postmasters, mistresses, they were trying to do that in the time i were trying to do that in the time that you — were trying to do that in the time that you were _ were trying to do that in the time that you were in _ were trying to do that in the time that you were in charge, - were trying to do that in the time that you were in charge, by- were trying to do that in the time i that you were in charge, by phoning the helpline — that you were in charge, by phoning the helpline and _ that you were in charge, by phoning the helpline and saying, _ that you were in charge, by phoning the helpline and saying, we - that you were in charge, by phoning the helpline and saying, we have i that you were in charge, by phoning the helpline and saying, we have ai the helpline and saying, we have a problem _ the helpline and saying, we have a problem this _ the helpline and saying, we have a problem. this thing _ the helpline and saying, we have a problem. this thing has _ the helpline and saying, we have a problem. this thing has a - the helpline and saying, we have a| problem. this thing has a shortfall. it is problem. this thing has a shortfall. it is not _ problem. this thing has a shortfall. it is not my— problem. this thing has a shortfall. it is not my fault, _ problem. this thing has a shortfall. it is not my fault, there _ problem. this thing has a shortfall. it is not my fault, there is - it is not my fault, there is something _ it is not my fault, there is something wrong - it is not my fault, there is something wrong with i it is not my fault, there isj something wrong with the it is not my fault, there is - something wrong with the machine. it is not my fault, there is _ something wrong with the machine. do you know— something wrong with the machine. do you know what — something wrong with the machine. do you know what they— something wrong with the machine. do you know what they were _ something wrong with the machine. do you know what they were told, - something wrong with the machine. do you know what they were told, mr- you know what they were told, mr crozier. _ you know what they were told, mr crozier. during _ you know what they were told, mr crozier, during your— you know what they were told, mr crozier, during your period? - you know what they were told, mr crozier, during your period? theyl crozier, during your period? they were _ crozier, during your period? they were told — crozier, during your period? they were told to _ crozier, during your period? they were told to pay _ crozier, during your period? they were told to pay up, _ crozier, during your period? they were told to pay up, pay - crozier, during your period? they

were told to pay up, pay up - crozier, during your period? they were told to pay up, pay up for. crozier, during your period? they. were told to pay up, pay up for that supposed _ were told to pay up, pay up for that supposed shortfall. _ were told to pay up, pay up for that supposed shortfall. so— were told to pay up, pay up for that supposed shortfall. so people i were told to pay up, pay up for that supposed shortfall. so people did i supposed shortfall. so people did raise problems _ supposed shortfall. so people did raise problems with _ supposed shortfall. so people did raise problems with the _ supposed shortfall. so people did raise problems with the horizon i raise problems with the horizon system — raise problems with the horizon system this _ raise problems with the horizon system. this sub—postmastersl raise problems with the horizon i system. this sub—postmasters who raise problems with the horizon - system. this sub—postmasters who are under_ system. this sub—postmasters who are under your— system. this sub—postmasters who are under your care — system. this sub—postmasters who are underyour care. what— system. this sub—postmasters who are under your care. what do— system. this sub—postmasters who are under your care. what do you - system. this sub—postmasters who are under your care. what do you think- under your care. what do you think about_ under your care. what do you think about that? — about that? i_ about that? ithink- about that? i think that | about that? i i think that is about that? _ i think that is obviously about that? — i think that is obviously entirely wrong. i would have expected, i thought, and would have expected that when people raised issues, these would be openly and fairly looked at. i know from the evidence i have been sent that people sent letters which the post office team replied to. i always assume, because i do it myself, i wouldn't send or sign a letter that i didn't believe in, so i assume people would check those things out properly and i assumed they would handle those professionally and openly and ensure that any issues that were raised were investigated properly. you trobabl were investigated properly. you probably heard that what happened

was that _ probably heard that what happened was that because _ probably heard that what happened was that because sub—postmasters| probably heard that what happened - was that because sub—postmasters and mistresses— was that because sub—postmasters and mistresses were — was that because sub—postmasters and mistresses were being _ was that because sub—postmasters and mistresses were being told _ was that because sub—postmasters and mistresses were being told to - was that because sub—postmasters and mistresses were being told to pay - mistresses were being told to pay up, mistresses were being told to pay up, it— mistresses were being told to pay up. it is— mistresses were being told to pay up. it is your— mistresses were being told to pay up, it is your contractual- mistresses were being told to pay up, it is your contractual duty, - up, it is your contractual duty, they— up, it is your contractual duty, they were _ up, it is your contractual duty, they were told, _ up, it is your contractual duty, they were told, to _ up, it is your contractual duty, they were told, to pay- up, it is your contractual duty, they were told, to pay up - up, it is your contractual duty, they were told, to pay up andi up, it is your contractual duty, - they were told, to pay up and many of them _ they were told, to pay up and many ofthem did, — they were told, to pay up and many of them did, paying _ they were told, to pay up and many of them did, paying out _ they were told, to pay up and many of them did, paying out for- of them did, paying out for shortfalls— of them did, paying out for shortfalls that _ of them did, paying out for shortfalls that were - of them did, paying out for. shortfalls that were certainly of them did, paying out for- shortfalls that were certainly not their fault — shortfalls that were certainly not their fault. they— shortfalls that were certainly not their fault. they got _ shortfalls that were certainly not their fault. they got that - shortfalls that were certainly not their fault. they got that money| their fault. they got that money from _ their fault. they got that money from their— their fault. they got that money from their own _ their fault. they got that money from their own pockets, - their fault. they got that money from their own pockets, they. their fault. they got that money| from their own pockets, they got that money— from their own pockets, they got that money sometimes - from their own pockets, they got that money sometimes from - from their own pockets, they got - that money sometimes from borrowing from friends _ that money sometimes from borrowing from friends. some, _ that money sometimes from borrowing from friends. some, you _ that money sometimes from borrowing from friends. some, you may- that money sometimes from borrowing from friends. some, you may recall, i from friends. some, you may recall, -ot from friends. some, you may recall, got that— from friends. some, you may recall, got that money— from friends. some, you may recall, got that money from _ from friends. some, you may recall, got that money from their _ from friends. some, you may recall, got that money from their kids' - got that money from their kids' piggy— got that money from their kids' piggy hanks _ got that money from their kids' piggy banks. others _ got that money from their kids' piggy banks. others got - got that money from their kids' piggy banks. others got money got that money from their kids' - piggy banks. others got money from loan piggy banks. others got money from toah sharks, — piggy banks. others got money from toah sharks, at— piggy banks. others got money from loan sharks, at extortionate - loan sharks, at extortionate ihterest _ loan sharks, at extortionate interest rates, _ loan sharks, at extortionate interest rates, tipping - loan sharks, at extortionate interest rates, tipping them loan sharks, at extortionate - interest rates, tipping them into financial— interest rates, tipping them into financial chaos _ interest rates, tipping them into financial chaos and _ interest rates, tipping them into financial chaos and bankruptcy. i interest rates, tipping them into - financial chaos and bankruptcy. now help us, _ financial chaos and bankruptcy. now help us, please _ financial chaos and bankruptcy. now help us, please understand - financial chaos and bankruptcy. now help us, please understand what - help us, please understand what happened — help us, please understand what happened to _ help us, please understand what happened to that _ help us, please understand what happened to that money- help us, please understand what happened to that money when i help us, please understand what happened to that money when it| help us, please understand what - happened to that money when it was paid in. _ happened to that money when it was paid in. was— happened to that money when it was paid in. was it— happened to that money when it was paid in, was it properly— happened to that money when it was paid in, was it properly accounted i paid in, was it properly accounted for, paid in, was it properly accounted for. this— paid in, was it properly accounted for. this money— paid in, was it properly accounted for, this money paid _ paid in, was it properly accounted for, this money paid into- paid in, was it properly accounted for, this money paid into balance| for, this money paid into balance strpposed — for, this money paid into balance supposed shortfall— for, this money paid into balance supposed shortfall is? _ for, this money paid into balance supposed shortfall is? i- for, this money paid into balance supposed shortfall is?— for, this money paid into balance supposed shortfall is? i assume it was. was supposed shortfall is? i assume it was- was it _ supposed shortfall is? i assume it was. was it accounted _ supposed shortfall is? i assume it was. was it accounted for - supposed shortfall is? i assume it was. was it accounted for as - supposed shortfall is? i assume it l was. was it accounted for as profit? i don't was. was it accounted for as profit? i don't know _ was. was it accounted for as profit? i don't know. the _ was. was it accounted for as profit? i don't know. the very _ was. was it accounted for as profit? i don't know. the very early - was. was it accounted for as profit? i don't know. the very early part - was. was it accounted for as profit? i don't know. the very early part of| i don't know. the very early part of the questions _ i don't know. the very early part of the questions asked _ i don't know. the very early part of the questions asked by _ i don't know. the very early part of the questions asked by mr - i don't know. the very early part of the questions asked by mr beer, i i don't know. the very early part of| the questions asked by mr beer, he asked _

the questions asked by mr beer, he asked a _ the questions asked by mr beer, he asked a number— the questions asked by mr beer, he asked a number of— the questions asked by mr beer, he asked a number of questions - the questions asked by mr beer, he asked a number of questions about| asked a number of questions about the corporate — asked a number of questions about the corporate directorial— the corporate directorial responsibility— the corporate directorial responsibility and - the corporate directorial responsibility and part l the corporate directoriali responsibility and part of the corporate directorial- responsibility and part of the directors— responsibility and part of the directors responsibility- responsibility and part of the directors responsibility is - responsibility and part of the directors responsibility is a l directors responsibility is a responsibility— directors responsibility is a responsibility over- directors responsibility is a responsibility over the - directors responsibility is a - responsibility over the accounts of a business. — responsibility over the accounts of a business. is _ responsibility over the accounts of a business, is that— responsibility over the accounts of a business, is that agreed? - responsibility over the accounts of a business, is that agreed? it- responsibility over the accounts of a business, is that agreed? [it is. i a business, is that agreed? it is. and it would _ a business, is that agreed? it is. and it would be _ a business, is that agreed? it is. and it would be wholly _ a business, is that agreed? and it would be wholly wrong, a business, is that agreed?- and it would be wholly wrong, would you agree, _ and it would be wholly wrong, would you agree, to— and it would be wholly wrong, would you agree, to account _ and it would be wholly wrong, would you agree, to account for _ and it would be wholly wrong, would you agree, to account for a - and it would be wholly wrong, would you agree, to account for a payment| you agree, to account for a payment for a _ you agree, to account for a payment for a shortfall— you agree, to account for a payment for a shortfall as— you agree, to account for a payment for a shortfall as profit? _ you agree, to account for a payment for a shortfall as profit? do- you agree, to account for a payment for a shortfall as profit? do you - for a shortfall as profit? do you agree _ for a shortfall as profit? do you agree with _ for a shortfall as profit? do you agree with that? _ for a shortfall as profit? do you agree with that? i— for a shortfall as profit? do you agree with that?— agree with that? i am not an accounting — agree with that? i am not an accounting expert. _ agree with that? i am not an accounting expert. i - agree with that? i am not an | accounting expert. i wouldn't agree with that? i am not an - accounting expert. i wouldn't know exactly how you would account for different payments.— exactly how you would account for different payments. your background, ou have a different payments. your background, you have a business _ different payments. your background, you have a business qualification, - different payments. your background, you have a business qualification, i i you have a business qualification, i do believe. — you have a business qualification, i do believe, and _ you have a business qualification, i do believe, and you _ you have a business qualification, i do believe, and you have _ you have a business qualification, i do believe, and you have worked . you have a business qualification, i. do believe, and you have worked very senior— do believe, and you have worked very senior tevets — do believe, and you have worked very senior levels. you _ do believe, and you have worked very senior levels. you have _ do believe, and you have worked very senior levels. you have an _ senior levels. you have an understanding _ senior levels. you have an understanding of- senior levels. you have ani understanding of accounts, senior levels. you have an - understanding of accounts, don't you. _ understanding of accounts, don't you. and — understanding of accounts, don't you. and you _ understanding of accounts, don't you. and you have _ understanding of accounts, don't you, and you have a _ understanding of accounts, don't you, and you have a very - understanding of accounts, don't you, and you have a very seniori you, and you have a very senior tevets — you, and you have a very senior tevets you _ you, and you have a very senior levels. you have _ you, and you have a very senior levels. you have an _ you, and you have a very senior. levels. you have an understanding you, and you have a very senior- levels. you have an understanding of accounts, _ levels. you have an understanding of accounts, don't— levels. you have an understanding of accounts, don't you, _ levels. you have an understanding of accounts, don't you, and _ levels. you have an understanding of accounts, don't you, and you - levels. you have an understanding of accounts, don't you, and you have i levels. you have an understanding of| accounts, don't you, and you have an end trit— accounts, don't you, and you have an end hit that _ accounts, don't you, and you have an end bit that anaemic— accounts, don't you, and you have an end bit that anaemic responsibility i end bit that anaemic responsibility to read _ end bit that anaemic responsibility to read accounts? _ end bit that anaemic responsibility to read accounts? one _ end bit that anaemic responsibility to read accounts? one is - end bit that anaemic responsibility to read accounts? one is profit - to read accounts? one is profit account, — to read accounts? one is profit account, so _ to read accounts? one is profit account, so money— to read accounts? one is profit account, so money being - to read accounts? one is profit account, so money being paidi to read accounts? one is profit. account, so money being paid in to read accounts? one is profit - account, so money being paid in by a sub-postmaster— account, so money being paid in by a sub—postmaster and _ account, so money being paid in by a sub—postmaster and being _ account, so money being paid in by a sub—postmaster and being told, - account, so money being paid in by a sub—postmaster and being told, youi sub—postmaster and being told, you need to— sub—postmaster and being told, you need to pay— sub—postmaster and being told, you need to pay up— sub—postmaster and being told, you need to pay up for— sub—postmaster and being told, you need to pay up for a _ sub—postmaster and being told, you need to pay up for a supposed - need to pay up for a supposed shortfatt, _ need to pay up for a supposed shortfall, is _ need to pay up for a supposed shortfall, is that _ need to pay up for a supposed shortfall, is that a _ need to pay up for a supposed shortfall, is that a profit, - need to pay up for a supposed shortfall, is that a profit, mr. shortfall, is that a profit, mr

crozier? _ shortfall, is that a profit, mr crozier? the _ shortfall, is that a profit, mr crozier? the machine - shortfall, is that a profit, mr crozier? the machine is- shortfall, is that a profit, mr. crozier? the machine is saying shortfall, is that a profit, mr- crozier? the machine is saying there is something — crozier? the machine is saying there is something wrong _ crozier? the machine is saying there is something wrong here, _ crozier? the machine is saying there is something wrong here, there - crozier? the machine is saying there is something wrong here, there is. is something wrong here, there is £100,000 — is something wrong here, there is £100,000 gone _ is something wrong here, there is £100,000 gone. that— is something wrong here, there is- £100,000 gone. that sub—postmaster usin- £100,000 gone. that sub—postmaster using my— £100,000 gone. that sub—postmaster using my example _ £100,000 gone. that sub—postmaster using my example is— £100,000 gone. that sub—postmaster using my example is then _ £100,000 gone. that sub—postmaster using my example is then paying - £100,000 gone. that sub—postmaster using my example is then paying thati using my example is then paying that lar-e using my example is then paying that large sum _ using my example is then paying that targe sum of— using my example is then paying that large sum of money— using my example is then paying that large sum of money on. _ using my example is then paying that large sum of money on. is _ using my example is then paying that large sum of money on. is that- using my example is then paying that| large sum of money on. is that meant to he _ large sum of money on. is that meant to he recorded — large sum of money on. is that meant to be recorded as— large sum of money on. is that meant to be recorded as a _ large sum of money on. is that meant to be recorded as a profit? _ large sum of money on. is that meant to be recorded as a profit? i— to be recorded as a profit? suppose it depends what it to be recorded as a profit?“ suppose it depends what it is replacing, i don't know. shouldn't it be on the _ replacing, i don't know. shouldn't it be on the balance _ replacing, i don't know. shouldn't it be on the balance sheet, - replacing, i don't know. shouldn't i it be on the balance sheet, because in theory— it be on the balance sheet, because in theory it— it be on the balance sheet, because in theory it is— it be on the balance sheet, because in theory it is creating _ it be on the balance sheet, because in theory it is creating the _ in theory it is creating the opposite _ in theory it is creating the opposite side _ in theory it is creating the opposite side to - in theory it is creating the opposite side to the - in theory it is creating the| opposite side to the loss? in theory it is creating the i opposite side to the loss? i in theory it is creating the opposite side to the loss? i assume so, es. opposite side to the loss? i assume so. yes- that— opposite side to the loss? i assume so. yes- that is _ opposite side to the loss? i assume so, yes. that is where _ opposite side to the loss? i assume so, yes. that is where it _ opposite side to the loss? i assume so, yes. that is where it should - opposite side to the loss? i assume so, yes. that is where it should be. i so, yes. that is where it should be. the directors _ so, yes. that is where it should be. the directors of— so, yes. that is where it should be. the directors of post _ so, yes. that is where it should be. the directors of post office - so, yes. that is where it should be. the directors of post office should l the directors of post office should have had, — the directors of post office should have had, post— the directors of post office should have had, post office _ the directors of post office should have had, post office limited, - have had, post office limited, shoutd — have had, post office limited, should have _ have had, post office limited, should have had _ have had, post office limited, should have had their- have had, post office limited, should have had their eye - have had, post office limited, should have had their eye on i have had, post office limited, - should have had their eye on these accounts, — should have had their eye on these accounts, shouldn't— should have had their eye on these accounts, shouldn't they? - should have had their eye on these accounts, shouldn't they? yes. - should have had their eye on these| accounts, shouldn't they? yes. the second reason _ accounts, shouldn't they? the second reason them having an accounts, shouldn't they?“ the second reason them having an eye i accounts, shouldn't they?“ the . second reason them having an eye on the accounts — second reason them having an eye on the accounts is — second reason them having an eye on the accounts is the _ second reason them having an eye on the accounts is the cost _ second reason them having an eye on the accounts is the cost of _ second reason them having an eye on the accounts is the cost of the - the accounts is the cost of the legal— the accounts is the cost of the legal action— the accounts is the cost of the legal action being _ the accounts is the cost of the legal action being taken - the accounts is the cost of the i legal action being taken against sub—postmasters, _ legal action being taken against sub—postmasters, would - legal action being taken against sub—postmasters, would you i legal action being taken against - sub—postmasters, would you agree? i would sub—postmasters, would you agree? would come yes. sub-postmasters, would you agree? i would come yes. that _ sub-postmasters, would you agree? i would come yes. that is _ sub-postmasters, would you agree? i would come yes. that is a _ sub-postmasters, would you agree? i would come yes. that is a way - sub-postmasters, would you agree? i would come yes. that is a way of- would come yes. that is a way of lookint would come yes. that is a way of looking and _ would come yes. that is a way of looking and tracking _ would come yes. that is a way of looking and tracking the - would come yes. that is a way of looking and tracking the money i would come yes. that is a way of. looking and tracking the money that was being _ looking and tracking the money that was being paid _ looking and tracking the money that was being paid for— looking and tracking the money that was being paid for the _ looking and tracking the money that was being paid for the expensive . was being paid for the expensive costs— was being paid for the expensive costs of— was being paid for the expensive costs of taking _ was being paid for the expensive costs of taking people _ was being paid for the expensive costs of taking people to - was being paid for the expensive costs of taking people to court. i was being paid for the expensive i costs of taking people to court. all the cleaners —

costs of taking people to court. all the cleaners. —— _ costs of taking people to court. all the cleaners. —— or— costs of taking people to court. all the cleaners. —— or the _ costs of taking people to court. all the cleaners. —— or the cleaners. l the cleaners. —— or the cleaners. now— the cleaners. —— or the cleaners. now those — the cleaners. —— or the cleaners. now those directors, _ the cleaners. —— or the cleaners. now those directors, including . now those directors, including yourself, — now those directors, including yourself, from _ now those directors, including yourself, from the _ now those directors, including yourself, from the board - now those directors, includingl yourself, from the board level, now those directors, including - yourself, from the board level, did yourself, from the board level, did you pay— yourself, from the board level, did you pay attention _ yourself, from the board level, did you pay attention to _ yourself, from the board level, did you pay attention to the _ yourself, from the board level, did you pay attention to the costs, - yourself, from the board level, did you pay attention to the costs, the legal _ you pay attention to the costs, the legal costs — you pay attention to the costs, the legal costs being _ you pay attention to the costs, the legal costs being spent _ you pay attention to the costs, the legal costs being spent on - you pay attention to the costs, the legal costs being spent on those . legal costs being spent on those people _ legal costs being spent on those people being _ legal costs being spent on those people being prosecuted, - legal costs being spent on those people being prosecuted, the i legal costs being spent on those . people being prosecuted, the legal costs of— people being prosecuted, the legal costs of those _ people being prosecuted, the legal costs of those people _ people being prosecuted, the legal costs of those people being - people being prosecuted, the legal costs of those people being taken. people being prosecuted, the legal. costs of those people being taken to the civil— costs of those people being taken to the civil courts? _ costs of those people being taken to the civil courts? the?— costs of those people being taken to the civil courts?— the civil courts? they would have been taken _ the civil courts? they would have been taken in _ the civil courts? they would have been taken in the _ the civil courts? they would have been taken in the round, - the civil courts? they would have been taken in the round, i - the civil courts? they would have i been taken in the round, i suspect, both at post office and royal mail. forgive me for interrupting, this period _ forgive me for interrupting, this period of— forgive me for interrupting, this period of time _ forgive me for interrupting, this period of time we _ forgive me for interrupting, this period of time we are _ forgive me for interrupting, this period of time we are talking - forgive me for interrupting, this- period of time we are talking about, which _ period of time we are talking about, which mr— period of time we are talking about, which mr beer — period of time we are talking about, which mr beer has _ period of time we are talking about, which mr beer has emphasised, - period of time we are talking about, i which mr beer has emphasised, was period of time we are talking about, i which mr beer has emphasised, was a period _ which mr beer has emphasised, was a period of— which mr beer has emphasised, was a period of time — which mr beer has emphasised, was a period of time for— which mr beer has emphasised, was a period of time for the _ which mr beer has emphasised, was a period of time for the post _ which mr beer has emphasised, was a period of time for the post office - period of time for the post office and royal— period of time for the post office and royal mail— period of time for the post office and royal mail when— period of time for the post office and royal mail when the - period of time for the post office | and royal mail when the business period of time for the post office - and royal mail when the business was financially _ and royal mail when the business was financially in _ and royal mail when the business was financially in trouble. _ and royal mail when the business was financially in trouble.— financially in trouble. indeed. where post — financially in trouble. indeed. where post office _ financially in trouble. indeed. where post office branches i financially in trouble. indeed. . where post office branches were being _ where post office branches were being cut, — where post office branches were being cut, yes? _ where post office branches were being cut. yes?— where post office branches were being cut, yes? yes. so - where post office branches were being cut, yes? yes. so the - being cut, yes? yes. so the questions — being cut, yes? yes. so the questions of _ being cut, yes? yes. so the questions of these - being cut, yes? yes. so the questions of these costs, i being cut, yes?“ so the i questions of these costs, costs being _ questions of these costs, costs being put— questions of these costs, costs being put in— questions of these costs, costs being put in these _ questions of these costs, costs being put in these accounts - questions of these costs, costs i being put in these accounts would have been— being put in these accounts would have been under— being put in these accounts would have been under some _ being put in these accounts would have been under some scrutiny, i have been under some scrutiny, wouldn't — have been under some scrutiny, wouldn't they? _ have been under some scrutiny, wouldn't they?— have been under some scrutiny, wouldn't they? have been under some scrutiny, wouldn't the ? , ., ., , wouldn't they? they would. there was reference to — wouldn't they? they would. there was reference to them _ wouldn't they? they would. there was reference to them in _ wouldn't they? they would. there was reference to them in some _ wouldn't they? they would. there was reference to them in some of - wouldn't they? they would. there was reference to them in some of the - reference to them in some of the paper sent through come yes. 50 reference to them in some of the paper sent through come yes. so one ofthe paper sent through come yes. so one of the ways — paper sent through come yes. so one of the ways to — paper sent through come yes. so one of the ways to get — paper sent through come yes. so one of the ways to get information - paper sent through come yes. so one of the ways to get information about | of the ways to get information about what is _ of the ways to get information about what is happening _ of the ways to get information about what is happening in _ of the ways to get information about what is happening in the _ of the ways to get information about

what is happening in the business i what is happening in the business would _ what is happening in the business would have — what is happening in the business would have been— what is happening in the business would have been through - what is happening in the business would have been through the - what is happening in the business - would have been through the scrutiny of accounts, — would have been through the scrutiny ofaccounts. do— would have been through the scrutiny of accounts, do you _ would have been through the scrutiny of accounts, do you agree _ would have been through the scrutiny of accounts, do you agree mark- of accounts, do you agree mark eliesse — of accounts, do you agree mark eliesse 0f— of accounts, do you agree mark eliesse. of money— of accounts, do you agree mark eliesse. of money has - of accounts, do you agree mark eliesse. of money has been- of accounts, do you agree mark. eliesse. of money has been taken from _ eliesse. of money has been taken from sub—postmasters _ eliesse. of money has been taken from sub—postmasters errors - eliesse. of money has been taken. from sub—postmasters errors made eliesse. of money has been taken- from sub—postmasters errors made by the horizon _ from sub—postmasters errors made by the horizon system _ from sub—postmasters errors made by the horizon system and _ from sub—postmasters errors made by the horizon system and being - from sub—postmasters errors made by the horizon system and being put- the horizon system and being put into the _ the horizon system and being put into the profit— the horizon system and being put into the profit accounts _ the horizon system and being put into the profit accounts of- the horizon system and being put into the profit accounts of post i into the profit accounts of post office, — into the profit accounts of post office, that _ into the profit accounts of post office, that would _ into the profit accounts of post office, that would be - into the profit accounts of post office, that would be wrong i into the profit accounts of post. office, that would be wrong and dishonest. — office, that would be wrong and dishonest, wouldn't _ office, that would be wrong and dishonest, wouldn't it? - office, that would be wrong and dishonest, wouldn't it? i- office, that would be wrong and dishonest, wouldn't it?- office, that would be wrong and dishonest, wouldn't it? i don't know if it was so — dishonest, wouldn't it? i don't know if it was so it — dishonest, wouldn't it? i don't know if it was so it is _ dishonest, wouldn't it? i don't know if it was so it is difficult... _ dishonest, wouldn't it? i don't know if it was so it is difficult... if - if it was so it is difficult... if it was, it would be wrong and dishonest. _ it was, it would be wrong and dishonest, wouldn't - it was, it would be wrong and dishonest, wouldn't it? - it was, it would be wrong and dishonest, wouldn't it? on. it was, it would be wrong and dishonest, wouldn't it? on the face of it, es, dishonest, wouldn't it? on the face of it. yes. but _ dishonest, wouldn't it? on the face of it. yes. but i _ dishonest, wouldn't it? on the face of it, yes, but i don't _ dishonest, wouldn't it? on the face of it, yes, but i don't know- dishonest, wouldn't it? on the face of it, yes, but i don't know how - of it, yes, but i don't know how that was treated.— of it, yes, but i don't know how that was treated. lastly, you heard the evidence _ that was treated. lastly, you heard the evidence of— that was treated. lastly, you heard the evidence of lord _ that was treated. lastly, you heard the evidence of lord justice - that was treated. lastly, you heardi the evidence of lord justice hooper the evidence of lord justice hooper who gave _ the evidence of lord justice hooper who gave evidence _ the evidence of lord justice hooper who gave evidence earlier- the evidence of lord justice hooper who gave evidence earlier this- the evidence of lord justice hooperi who gave evidence earlier this week. he said _ who gave evidence earlier this week. he said on _ who gave evidence earlier this week. he said on a — who gave evidence earlier this week. he said on a number— who gave evidence earlier this week. he said on a number of— who gave evidence earlier this week. he said on a number of occasions, i he said on a number of occasions, when _ he said on a number of occasions, when he _ he said on a number of occasions, when he was — he said on a number of occasions, when he was trying _ he said on a number of occasions, when he was trying to _ he said on a number of occasions, when he was trying to investigatel when he was trying to investigate such matters, _ when he was trying to investigate such matters, he _ when he was trying to investigate such matters, he asked - when he was trying to investigate such matters, he asked for- when he was trying to investigate such matters, he asked for the l such matters, he asked for the accounts, _ such matters, he asked for the accounts, try— such matters, he asked for the accounts, try to _ such matters, he asked for the accounts, try to find _ such matters, he asked for the accounts, try to find out - such matters, he asked for the accounts, try to find out wherei such matters, he asked for the - accounts, try to find out where the money _ accounts, try to find out where the money went — accounts, try to find out where the money went and _ accounts, try to find out where the money went and he _ accounts, try to find out where the money went and he never- accounts, try to find out where the money went and he never got - accounts, try to find out where the money went and he never got a . money went and he never got a satisfactory _ money went and he never got a satisfactory answer. _ money went and he never got a satisfactory answer. he - money went and he never got a satisfactory answer. he never. money went and he never got a . satisfactory answer. he never saw those _ satisfactory answer. he never saw those accounts, _ satisfactory answer. he never saw those accounts, do _ satisfactory answer. he never saw those accounts, do you _ satisfactory answer. he never saw those accounts, do you know - satisfactory answer. he never sawi those accounts, do you know why? when _ those accounts, do you know why? when was — those accounts, do you know why? when was this? _ those accounts, do you know why? when was this?— those accounts, do you know why? when was this? later on, after your time, when was this? later on, after your time. after — when was this? later on, after your time. after the _ when was this? later on, after your time, after the very _ when was this? later on, after your time, after the very sorts _ when was this? later on, after your time, after the very sorts of - time, after the very sorts of accounts _ time, after the very sorts of accounts i _ time, after the very sorts of accounts i have _ time, after the very sorts of accounts i have been- time, after the very sorts of - accounts i have been describing. do you know _ accounts i have been describing. do you know why— accounts i have been describing. do you know why he _ accounts i have been describing. do you know why he wasn't _ accounts i have been describing. do you know why he wasn't given - accounts i have been describing. do| you know why he wasn't given those accounts? _ you know why he wasn't given those accounts? l— you know why he wasn't given those

accounts? ., �* , ., ~ ., accounts? i don't see how mr crozier can answer — accounts? i don't see how mr crozier can answer that _ accounts? i don't see how mr crozier can answer that since _ accounts? i don't see how mr crozier can answer that since he _ accounts? i don't see how mr crozier can answer that since he left - accounts? i don't see how mr crozier can answer that since he left four- can answer that since he left four years previously?— can answer that since he left four years previously? where were the accounts kept. — years previously? where were the accounts kept, where _ years previously? where were the accounts kept, where they - years previously? where were the accounts kept, where they kept i years previously? where were the accounts kept, where they kept at chesterfield? _ accounts kept, where they kept at chesterfield?— chesterfield? obviously all the information _ chesterfield? obviously all the information was _ chesterfield? obviously all the information was also _ chesterfield? obviously all the information was also held - chesterfield? obviously all the information was also held at i chesterfield? obviously all the | information was also held at the head office. 50 information was also held at the head office-— information was also held at the head office. . . . head office. so far, we have heard from a number— head office. so far, we have heard from a number of _ head office. so far, we have heard from a number of people - head office. so far, we have heard from a number of people in - head office. so far, we have heard. from a number of people in relation to royal— from a number of people in relation to royal mail— from a number of people in relation to royal mail and _ from a number of people in relation to royal mail and it— from a number of people in relation to royal mail and it appears - from a number of people in relation to royal mail and it appears no- to royal mail and it appears no responsibility— to royal mail and it appears no responsibility for— to royal mail and it appears no responsibility for the _ to royal mail and it appears no. responsibility for the prosecution of sub—postmasters, _ responsibility for the prosecution of sub—postmasters, nobody - responsibility for the prosecutioni of sub—postmasters, nobody took responsibility for the prosecution - of sub—postmasters, nobody took over side of— of sub—postmasters, nobody took over side of it _ of sub—postmasters, nobody took over side of it nobody— of sub—postmasters, nobody took over side of it. nobody at _ of sub—postmasters, nobody took over side of it. nobody at all. _ of sub—postmasters, nobody took over side of it. nobody at all. are _ of sub—postmasters, nobody took over side of it. nobody at all. are you - side of it. nobody at all. are you proud _ side of it. nobody at all. are you proud of— side of it. nobody at all. are you proud of that? _ side of it. nobody at all. are you proud of that?— side of it. nobody at all. are you proud of that? no. how- side of it. nobody at all. are you proud of that? no. how much i side of it. nobody at all. are you i proud of that? no. how much will side of it. nobody at all. are you - proud of that? no. how much will you -a proud of that? how much will you pay during your proud of that?- how much will you pay during your period _ proud of that?- how much will you pay during your period of— proud of that?- how much will you pay during your period of time - proud of that?- how much will you pay during your period of time as - pay during your period of time as chair— pay during your period of time as chair of— pay during your period of time as chair of the — pay during your period of time as chair of the royal— pay during your period of time as chair of the royal mail— pay during your period of time as chair of the royal mail group? ii pay during your period of time as i chair of the royal mail group? i am“ chair of the royal mail group? i am not sure, chair of the royal mail group? i am not sure. i — chair of the royal mail group? i am not sure, i would _ chair of the royal mail group? i am not sure, i would need _ chair of the royal mail group? not sure, i would need to look chair of the royal mail group?m not sure, i would need to look back, i'm sure it is available in the annual reports. it i'm sure it is available in the annual reports.— annual reports. it was in the millions. — annual reports. it was in the millions, wasn't _ annual reports. it was in the millions, wasn't it? - annual reports. it was in the millions, wasn't it? it - annual reports. it was in the i millions, wasn't it? it probably was, millions, wasn't it? it probably was. yes- _ millions, wasn't it? it probably was, yes. thank _ millions, wasn't it? it probably was, yes. thank you, - millions, wasn't it? it probably was, yes. thank you, mr - millions, wasn't it? it probably i was, yes. thank you, mr crozier. that brings _ was, yes. thank you, mr crozier. that brings to — was, yes. thank you, mr crozier. that brings to an _ was, yes. thank you, mr crozier. that brings to an end _ was, yes. thank you, mr crozier. that brings to an end today's - that brings to an end today's session. we will resume again...

sorry, i should formally thank you for your witness statement and for answering so many questions during the course of today. so we will resume again that 10.00 on tuesday, i think with mr miller, is it? drastic! i think with mr miller, is it? david miller first and _ i think with mr miller, is it? david miller first and david _ i think with mr miller, is it? david miller first and david mills - i think with mr miller, is it? david miller first and david mills second. so there you have it, the conclusion of this week's evidence that we have been hearing at the post office inquiry in central london. it ended on quite a moment there. mr crozier, who was chief exec of royal mail, was asked who had an eye on the accounts at the post office? he was told that nobody really took oversight when these prosecutions happened under his watch. he was asked about that. also one of the last questions he was asked to share what his salary was. his answer was, thatis what his salary was. his answer was, that is in the public domain for stop the questionnaire asked if it was in the millions, he didn't

specify. but he really was kind of held to account. this is all about accountability, in some ways, and what mr crozier did and did not know while his post office, royal mail, he was in charge of royal mail, while he was on the top job in there and so many sub—postmasters and mistresses were prosecuted wrongly. we can have a listen to a little bit more of what adam crozier said earlier in the afternoon. would another way of describing it be that— would another way of describing it be that you let them get on with it? i be that you let them get on with it? iwouldn't _ be that you let them get on with it? i wouldn't have put it that way but i wouldn't have put it that way but i understand why you might take that reference. d0 i understand why you might take that reference. , ., ,, ., ., ~' i understand why you might take that reference. ,, ,, . ,, reference. do you think looking back with hindsight _ reference. do you think looking back with hindsight this _ reference. do you think looking back with hindsight this is _ reference. do you think looking back with hindsight this is an _ reference. do you think looking back with hindsight this is an activity - with hindsight this is an activity that ought to have been the subject of oversight and supervision by one or more _ of oversight and supervision by one or more of— of oversight and supervision by one or more of the three boards or committees i have just mentioned? with the _ committees i have just mentioned? with the benefit of hindsight, yes, i do. to with the benefit of hindsight, yes, i do. ., . ,

with the benefit of hindsight, yes, i do. ., ., , ., with the benefit of hindsight, yes, ido. ., ., , ., ,, i do. to what extent is that issue that we have _ i do. to what extent is that issue that we have identified _ i do. to what extent is that issue that we have identified the - i do. to what extent is that issue i that we have identified the product of the _ that we have identified the product of the structural difficulties that you identified in paragraph 11 of your— you identified in paragraph 11 of your witness statement? asl you identified in paragraph 11 of your witness statement? as i said, atain, your witness statement? as i said, again. looking _ your witness statement? as i said, again, looking back— your witness statement? as i said, again, looking back with _ your witness statement? as i said, again, looking back with hindsight, i think that was one of my concerns, that in this structure, it allowed things to potentially... appear in the cracks, for want of a better phrase, because i cannot think of a better one right now. he has told the inquiry that although he had conversations with the head _ although he had conversations with the head of security about fraud, about _ the head of security about fraud, about liaison with the police, he remained — about liaison with the police, he remained in the dark about the prosecutorial function. at the time, did he _ prosecutorial function. at the time, did he strike you as a man who was so out _ did he strike you as a man who was so out of— did he strike you as a man who was so out of touch with the business that he _ so out of touch with the business that he was running that he wouldn't know— that he was running that he wouldn't know that _ that he was running that he wouldn't know that one of its functions was to prosecute its own staff,

resulting in many of them being sent to prison? _ to prison? he's certainly always gave the impression of someone who was very much in control of his brief. his particular area of expertise was in financial services, including his previous role, and obviously that was, given the amount of government revenue that had been lost, both through the last of benefits payments and the forthcoming loss of the pol card, financial services was one of the few ways that the post office could feel that revenue. so he was brought in specifically with that skill. i do know that he spent, i remember him always saying how much time he spent with sub—postmasters, with the nfs p and

he never gave the impression to either myself or indeed the board, in fairness, of being anything but in fairness, of being anything but in control of that brief. that in fairness, of being anything but in control of that brief.— in control of that brief. that was adam crozier _ in control of that brief. that was adam crozier speaking. - in control of that brief. that was adam crozier speaking. he - in control of that brief. that was . adam crozier speaking. he rounded off this week�* evidence the post office inquiry in central london. we can to our colleague at that inquiry in central london. in the end, a lot of the questions this afternoon were all about oversight and accountability. how much responsibility, in the end, do you think adam crozier did or did not take for all of those wrongful prosecutions which happened under his watch? that was what the council was very much trying to determine and as far as adam crozier is concerned, when it came to those big questions about whether he knew about the post office prosecutions, if he knew

about the prosecutorial policy or problems with the horizon system, he, during his time as chief executive between 2003—10, had no idea. so then the question becomes, who�*s fault is that communication failure? as faras who�*s fault is that communication failure? as far as he is concerned, he laid the blame with the post office but at the very end, he did acknowledge that he did have some questions around whether the structure in place at royal mail, at the organisation, exacerbated some of the issues that they were having. that is about as close as he came to acknowledging some sort of responsibility but as far as he is concerned, he trusted everyone at the post office to flag up when there were reputational issues all financial issues. he says that he was pushed for a culture of transparency and in his words, he wanted bad news to travel fast. now

in order to recognise the seriousness of the implications of all of this, again there where a victim sitting there listening to him, he did say that back before he knew of the scandal, he thought of his time at royal mail as a time that was very difficult but where a lot of progress was made. but that now, because of what he knows today, that time in his words is tainted. you talk about how some of those who are impacted by this miscarriage of justice were sitting at the inquiry, listening to the evidence. am i correct in thinking you have spoken to some people today who were in the inquiry? yes, i spoke to janet skinner, who you may remember her, she was sitting in that room when her lawyer pressured and asked alan cooke whether he acknowledged any responsibility for what happened to

her. she was jailed in 2007 for nine months, accused of stealing £59,000. 50 a lot of what she was talking so a lot of what she was talking about is when it came to her, to this moment, this period, this inquiry is all about restoring her reputation because for so long, she had consequences within her own community, neighbours looked at her differently. so the stakes were really high for her and the money, the time, the years she has lost during that period when she was in jail as well. so for her, she wanted to get an apology and she did get that apology. he told her that this time, this period, this scandal would stay with her for the rest of her life and it would stay with him for the rest of his. the question, of course, is whether there will be consequences for those who were responsible for what happened to her and so many others. what responsible for what happened to her and so many others.— responsible for what happened to her and so many others. what could those tossible and so many others. what could those possible consequences _ and so many others. what could those possible consequences be, _ possible consequences be, specifically coming out of this

inquiry? it is not legally binding or anything, inquiry? it is not legally binding oranything, is it? ihlo. inquiry? it is not legally binding or anything, is it?— inquiry? it is not legally binding or anything, is it? no, this is all about evidence _ or anything, is it? no, this is all about evidence gathering - or anything, is it? no, this is all about evidence gathering and i or anything, is it? no, this is all about evidence gathering and it| or anything, is it? no, this is all. about evidence gathering and it is all about answering questions and understanding how something that is viewed widely as the biggest miscarriage ofjustice in uk history could have possibly happened. so what they have been trying to establish here is when it came to the executives, people in power, people who could have potentially made a difference, what they knew and when. now this evidence is being gathered. the post office minister kevin hollinrake has previously said that the met police are watching these proceedings closely and he believes that once evidence has been established, those who would have had a role in this, any responsibility for this, should be held accountable and even face prison. you have been watching the inquiry all week and it has been, if you think about it, monday seems a long time ago when it comes to the inquiry. the week kicked off with

testimony from alan bates, the sub—postmaster who really was the kind of supporter, the campaigner and the person who brought all of those sub—postmasters and post mistresses together. you could argue without alan bates�* work and his bravery stepping up and holding those in power to account we may never have been having this conversation. that is right and the day the alan bates was speaking and the second day, tory peer campaigning on this issue for nearly 15 years, when he was here, a lot of victims were at the inquiry because they became a community here, in fact, i do want to bring janet skinner in, she is here with me, she was sitting in that inquiry, thank you so much for your time. alan cook, at the end

there, said he wanted to speak