happened in the establish what had happened in the branch. that was helen's. and establish what had happened in the branch. that was helen's.— establish what had happened in the branch. that was helen's. and mr and mrs atwell and _ branch. that was helen's. and mr and mrs atwell and mark _ branch. that was helen's. and mr and mrs atwell and mark baker _ branch. that was helen's. and mr and mrs atwell and mark baker from - branch. that was helen's. and mr and mrs atwell and mark baker from the l mrs atwell and mark baker from the federation, can we go forward to page _ federation, can we go forward to page three, please? the top of the page. this is mr baker— the top of the page. this is mr baker speaking. so we have moved forward _ baker speaking. so we have moved forward from where we left with added _ forward from where we left with added bayfield when he did the appeal. — added bayfield when he did the appeal, and he accepted that the stock_ appeal, and he accepted that the stock unit— appeal, and he accepted that the stock unit that had been some months prior to _ stock unit that had been some months prior to that, _ stock unit that had been some months prior to that, came back into life with_ prior to that, came back into life with money into it. he said there could _ with money into it. he said there could only— with money into it. he said there could only be caused by one of two ways, _ could only be caused by one of two ways, that — could only be caused by one of two ways, that was either by human physically— ways, that was either by human physically doing it within that branch— physically doing it within that branch or it has been generated by the computer itself for one reason or another — the computer itself for one reason oranother. he the computer itself for one reason or another. he was going away to get

to the _ or another. he was going away to get to the bottom of that. as far as i'm concerned — to the bottom of that. as far as i'm concerned the technical issue, that is where _ concerned the technical issue, that is where i'm — concerned the technical issue, that is where i'm waiting to find out how this is— is where i'm waiting to find out how this is happened. that was accurate, wash't _ this is happened. that was accurate, wasn't it? _ this is happened. that was accurate, wasn't it? that mrs arthur well had been _ wasn't it? that mrs arthur well had been reinstated, but there remained a mystery— been reinstated, but there remained a mystery how on a and dormant stock unit, money— a mystery how on a and dormant stock unit, money had suddenly appeared in it. unit, money had suddenly appeared in it and _ unit, money had suddenly appeared in it and they— unit, money had suddenly appeared in it. and they needed to be some sort of that— it. and they needed to be some sort of that exhalation for that, didn't there? _ of that exhalation for that, didn't there? , �* of that exhalation for that, didn't there? , ~ , ., of that exhalation for that, didn't there? , ~ i. of that exhalation for that, didn't there? , ~ ~ �* ., there? yes. and you say, a, b, that is ou. there? yes. and you say, a, b, that is yom helen _ there? yes. and you say, a, b, that is you. helen has _ there? yes. and you say, a, b, that is you. helen has looked _ there? yes. and you say, a, b, that is you. helen has looked at - there? yes. and you say, a, b, that is you. helen has looked at the - is you. helen has looked at the information from the logs and taken that information and put it into a working file poster as you can appreciate, that is a lot of data and can track where that is money has moved through the system in your branch. so she can talk you through that and we can do that right now.

mr baker, he asked a question. was it something someone did in the branch, — it something someone did in the branch, was it something the system has done _ branch, was it something the system has done. can you see that? yes, i can _ has done. can you see that? yes, i can it— has done. can you see that? yes, i can if we — has done. can you see that? yes, i can if we can— has done. can you see that? yes, i can. if we can go forward to page 11. can. if we can go forward to page it i'm _ can. if we can go forward to page it in just— can. if we can go forward to page 11. i'mjust reading it can. if we can go forward to page 11. i'm just reading it these to give _ 11. i'm just reading it these to give you — 11. i'm just reading it these to give you some context for what the issues _ give you some context for what the issues are — give you some context for what the issues are. towards the foot of the page _ about eight lines in, starting with item 152, — about eight lines in, starting with item 152, mr gillibrand says, we can pinpoint— item 152, mr gillibrand says, we can pinpoint where the figures have come from, _ pinpoint where the figures have come from. that's— pinpoint where the figures have come from, that's not true, we can pinpoint— from, that's not true, we can pinpoint where every figure comes

front _ pinpoint where every figure comes front can — pinpoint where every figure comes from. can you win it like this figure — from. can you win it like this figure is— from. can you win it like this figure is behind the scenes? no, you can't _ figure is behind the scenes? no, you can't no, _ figure is behind the scenes? no, you can't. no, you cannot get into the system, _ can't. no, you cannot get into the system, are — can't. no, you cannot get into the system, are you saying? mr gillibrand says, no, you can't. mr athwelll. — gillibrand says, no, you can't. mr athwelll, no, you cannot get into the systems? no. you cannot get into the systems? no. you cannot get into the horizon _ the systems? no. you cannot get into the horizon system? mr gillibrand, no. the horizon system? mr gillibrand, no~ over— the horizon system? mr gillibrand, no. overthe page. he says, yes, you can. _ no. overthe page. he says, yes, you can. mr_ no. overthe page. he says, yes, you can. mr gillibrand says, no, we can't _ can. mr gillibrand says, no, we can't no, _ can. mr gillibrand says, no, we can't. no, we can't. then you see, nobody— can't. no, we can't. then you see, nobody in _ can't. no, we can't. then you see, nobody in the — can't. no, we can't. then you see, nobody in the post office can get into the — nobody in the post office can get into the system. anything you have seen on _ into the system. anything you have seen on the — into the system. anything you have seen on the screen has been logged against _ seen on the screen has been logged against the user. locking in on the system _ against the user. locking in on the system against a password. but only that individuals should have that. we don't — that individuals should have that. we don't want to know what passwords are, so _ we don't want to know what passwords are, so we _ we don't want to know what passwords are, so we cannot access those

systems _ are, so we cannot access those systems at — are, so we cannot access those systems at all. in the light of the e-mail_ systems at all. in the light of the e-mail you — systems at all. in the light of the e—mail you had received a month before, _ e—mail you had received a month before, on— e—mail you had received a month before, on the 5th of december, what you said _ before, on the 5th of december, what you said there wasn't true, was it? on the _ you said there wasn't true, was it? on the 5th — you said there wasn't true, was it? on the 5th of— you said there wasn't true, was it? on the 5th of december, lynn said post office can't come a few gypsy can. that is what i have said there, was that nobody at post office can get in. was that nobody at post office can net in. ., ., was that nobody at post office can iet in. ., ., ., was that nobody at post office can net in. ., ., ., ,., was that nobody at post office can net in. ., ., ., y., was that nobody at post office can retin. ., ., ., , get in. come on, are you saying is that what you _ get in. come on, are you saying is that what you are _ get in. come on, are you saying is that what you are saying - get in. come on, are you saying is that what you are saying overall. that what you are saying overall there _ that what you are saying overall there is — that what you are saying overall there is accurate?— that what you are saying overall there is accurate? that is accurate. we no on there is accurate? that is accurate. we go on to _ there is accurate? that is accurate. we go on to talk— there is accurate? that is accurate. we go on to talk later _ there is accurate? that is accurate. we go on to talk later about - we go on to talk later about fujitsu, i believe. but in terms of what i said there, that was accurate. nobody in post office can get into the system ben, and i still don't think anyone can now, even years after i left the business. it years after i left the business. it was inaccurate by not being a full account, — was inaccurate by not being a full account, wasn't it? nobody in post office _ account, wasn't it? nobody in post

office can — account, wasn't it? nobody in post office can do this, but we found out that people — office can do this, but we found out that people in fujitsu can. that would — that people in fujitsu can. that would be — that people in fujitsu can. that would be the open and transparent thing _ would be the open and transparent thing to— would be the open and transparent thing to say, wouldn't it? at would be the open and transparent thing to say, wouldn't it?— thing to say, wouldn't it? at this oint thing to say, wouldn't it? at this point here. _ thing to say, wouldn't it? at this point here. as — thing to say, wouldn't it? at this point here, as you _ thing to say, wouldn't it? at this point here, as you can _ thing to say, wouldn't it? at this point here, as you can tell- thing to say, wouldn't it? at this point here, as you can tell froml thing to say, wouldn't it? at this i point here, as you can tell from the notes, it is quite confrontational between val and kevin. i came into this to try to calm it so recurred start having a conversation that. but what i've said there is correct. nobody in post office can get into the system, and then val went on to say about development in the chesterfield team. did say about development in the chesterfield team.— say about development in the chesterfield team. did you think that was the _ chesterfield team. did you think that was the honest _ chesterfield team. did you think that was the honest thing - chesterfield team. did you think that was the honest thing to - chesterfield team. did you think that was the honest thing to do, chesterfield team. did you think. that was the honest thing to do, to only talk— that was the honest thing to do, to only talk about post office when you knew very _ only talk about post office when you knew very well about fujitsu's facility — knew very well about fujitsu's facility to _ knew very well about fujitsu's facility to remotely access plants accounts? — facility to remotely access plants accounts? it facility to remotely access plants accounts? . , ., , accounts? it was important in terms ofthe accounts? it was important in terms of the distinction. _ accounts? it was important in terms of the distinction. nobody _ accounts? it was important in terms of the distinction. nobody in - accounts? it was important in terms of the distinction. nobody in post i of the distinction. nobody in post office can, that is what i was

saying. the conversation goes on, but all i was saying was distilling the confrontation exchange between them. it the confrontation exchange between them. .., , the confrontation exchange between them. , ., ~ the confrontation exchange between them. ~ ~ them. it carries on. mr athwelll, ou them. it carries on. mr athwelll, you probably _ them. it carries on. mr athwelll, you probably can't, _ them. it carries on. mr athwelll, you probably can't, but - them. it carries on. mr athwelll, you probably can't, but your- you probably can't, but your business _ you probably can't, but your business development in chesterfield can. nobody in post office can do that, _ can. nobody in post office can do that, you — can. nobody in post office can do that, you say. mr athwelll says, are you sure? _ that, you say. mr athwelll says, are you sure? he — that, you say. mr athwelll says, are you sure? he replied, have you asked? — you sure? he replied, have you asked? i— you sure? he replied, have you asked? i have asked them and these will come _ asked? i have asked them and these will come out into the open later on. will come out into the open later on what— will come out into the open later on. what did they tell you? did they tell you _ on. what did they tell you? did they tell you that people in post office can access? they cannot access it because _ can access? they cannot access it because it — can access? they cannot access it because it is _ can access? they cannot access it because it is done against a user

id. 0k, _ because it is done against a user id~ 0k. i'm _ because it is done against a user id. ok, i'm not going to argue over it. then— id. ok, i'm not going to argue over it. then mr_ id. ok, i'm not going to argue over it. then mrgillibrand, id. ok, i'm not going to argue over it. then mr gillibrand, it is a fact nobody— it. then mr gillibrand, it is a fact nobody in — it. then mr gillibrand, it is a fact nobody in post office can access horizon. — nobody in post office can access horizon, they cannot win if you let any of— horizon, they cannot win if you let any of the — horizon, they cannot win if you let any of the data. why were you not being _ any of the data. why were you not being open— any of the data. why were you not being open about fujitsu access? all of the being open about fujitsu access? fill of the information i had was what tracy had put into the e—mail the day before. tracy had put into the e-mail the day before-— tracy had put into the e-mail the da before. ., ., ., day before. no, you had the e-mail from the 5th _ day before. no, you had the e-mail from the 5th of _ day before. no, you had the e-mail from the 5th of december. - day before. no, you had the e-mail from the 5th of december. what. day before. no, you had the e-maill from the 5th of december. what i've said is i from the 5th of december. what i've said is i didn't _ from the 5th of december. what i've said is i didn't remember— from the 5th of december. what i've said is i didn't remember seeing - said is i didn't remember seeing that e—mail at the time, so this is really my first recollection of anything to do with questioning the system. anything to do with questioning the s stem. , , ., ., ., system. this is within a month of receivin: system. this is within a month of receiving that _ system. this is within a month of receiving that e-mail, _ system. this is within a month of receiving that e-mail, almost - system. this is within a month of receiving that e-mail, almost to | system. this is within a month of i receiving that e-mail, almost to the receiving that e—mail, almost to the day. receiving that e—mail, almost to the day it— receiving that e—mail, almost to the day it is— receiving that e—mail, almost to the day. it is about the same subject. are you _ day. it is about the same subject. are you saying you airbrushed it from _ are you saying you airbrushed it from your— are you saying you airbrushed it from your mind? i are you saying you airbrushed it from your mind?— are you saying you airbrushed it from your mind? i don't remember even seeing _ from your mind? i don't remember even seeing it. _ from your mind? i don't remember even seeing it, that _ from your mind? i don't remember even seeing it, that is _ from your mind? i don't remember even seeing it, that is what - from your mind? i don't remember even seeing it, that is what i - even seeing it, that is what i struggle with, because... maybe we stru: ale struggle with, because... maybe we struggle with _ struggle with, because... maybe we struggle with it _ struggle with, because... maybe we struggle with it as _ struggle with, because... maybe we struggle with it as well. _ struggle with, because... maybe we struggle with it as well. is _ struggle with, because... maybe we struggle with it as well. is what -

struggle with, because... maybe we struggle with it as well. is what is i struggle with it as well. is what is happening — struggle with it as well. is what is happening is that you are telling us you don't— happening is that you are telling us you don't recall it because you know the e-mail_ you don't recall it because you know the e—mail of the 5th of december 2010 present you with a problem? not at all. i 2010 present you with a problem? at all. i wish i 2010 present you with a problem? iirrit at all. i wish i had remembered that information, because that, coming into this meeting, with the further information, i would into this meeting, with the further information, iwould have into this meeting, with the further information, i would have known a lot more. but in this meeting, i came in on the back of the e—mail that came in the day before from tracey. that is my first recollection of that information. the e—mail from recollection of that information. the e—mailfrom december recollection of that information. the e—mail from december have recollection of that information. the e—mailfrom december have no bearing on me in this meeting. lasting? bearing on me in this meeting. why? it is about remote _ bearing on me in this meeting. why? it is about remote access. _ bearing on me in this meeting. why? it is about remote access. i _ bearing on me in this meeting. why? it is about remote access. i don't - it is about remote access. i don't remember _ it is about remote access. i don't remember seeing _ it is about remote access. i don't remember seeing that _ it is about remote access. i don't remember seeing that e-mail. if| it is about remote access. i don't| remember seeing that e-mail. if i remember seeing that e—mail. if i haven't seen it, i wouldn't have taken that knowledge into this meeting. this, for me, was the first time i had actually seen in my head

anything to do with remote access. as i said previously, in my other roles, this haven't come up as an issue. . ., ., ., ., issue. can we go forward to page 47, lease? issue. can we go forward to page 47, please? can — issue. can we go forward to page 47, please? can i — issue. can we go forward to page 47, please? can i take _ issue. can we go forward to page 47, please? can i take it _ issue. can we go forward to page 47, please? can i take it that, _ issue. can we go forward to page 47, please? can i take it that, in - issue. can we go forward to page 47, please? can i take it that, in the - please? can i take it that, in the arts of please? can i take it that, in the parts of the _ please? can i take it that, in the parts of the transcript _ please? can i take it that, in the parts of the transcript which - parts of the transcript which immediately follow the exchange we have been looking at, the issue of whether or not fujitsu could gain remote access doesn't arise? that's correct, remote access doesn't arise? that's correct. sir- — remote access doesn't arise? that's correct. sir- can _ remote access doesn't arise? that's correct, sir. can we _ remote access doesn't arise? that's correct, sir. can we go _ remote access doesn't arise? that's correct, sir. can we go forward - correct, sir. can we go forward please — correct, sir. can we go forward please to— correct, sir. can we go forward please to page 47? and scroll down to entry _ please to page 47? and scroll down to entry 857. you see, you claim there _ to entry 857. you see, you claim there is— to entry 857. you see, you claim there is a — to entry 857. you see, you claim there is a glitch in the system, in reference — there is a glitch in the system, in reference to the 436 pounds. i think

that is— reference to the 436 pounds. i think that is part — reference to the 436 pounds. i think that is part of the £700 that showed up that is part of the £700 that showed up on _ that is part of the £700 that showed up on the _ that is part of the £700 that showed up on the stock unit. mr tim throw says. _ up on the stock unit. mr tim throw says. and — up on the stock unit. mr tim throw says, and the £400 on the audit they carried _ says, and the £400 on the audit they carried out _ says, and the £400 on the audit they carried out. you see, we have demonstrated from the information that we _ demonstrated from the information that we have... he interrupts and says. _ that we have... he interrupts and says. you — that we have... he interrupts and says, you haven't, you had satisfied yourself, _ says, you haven't, you had satisfied yourself, not — says, you haven't, you had satisfied yourself, not me. you see, i have satisfied _ yourself, not me. you see, i have satisfied myself because i have seen the information and that is down to a user— the information and that is down to a user with — the information and that is down to a user with a password, only noted that person. — a user with a password, only noted that person, who has access that system — that person, who has access that system. nobody else could have done that. system. nobody else could have done that so _ system. nobody else could have done that. so therefore i'm satisfied that. so therefore i'm satisfied that that — that. so therefore i'm satisfied that that was not a glitch in the system — that that was not a glitch in the system. he says, but the £400 transferred out of the safe into a stock _ transferred out of the safe into a stock unit — transferred out of the safe into a stock unit with a recipient on that stock— stock unit with a recipient on that stock unit— stock unit with a recipient on that stock unit wasn't even logged on, didn't— stock unit wasn't even logged on, didn't even— stock unit wasn't even logged on, didn't even day, how do you explain that? _ didn't even day, how do you explain that? you _ didn't even day, how do you explain that? you see, i haven't looked at the evidence, i can't, but i'm sure

the evidence, ican't, but i'm sure given— the evidence, i can't, but i'm sure given that — the evidence, i can't, but i'm sure given that i'm confident in the system — given that i'm confident in the system. you started this interview by asserting to the sub—postmaster and her— by asserting to the sub—postmaster and her husband that the security of user it) _ and her husband that the security of user it) was — and her husband that the security of user id was important, didn't you? yes _ user id was important, didn't you? yes. ., ~' user id was important, didn't you? yes. ., ~ ., , ., yes. you knew, on the basis of both the e-mail— yes. you knew, on the basis of both the e-mail of— yes. you knew, on the basis of both the e-mail of the _ yes. you knew, on the basis of both the e-mail of the 5th _ yes. you knew, on the basis of both the e-mail of the 5th of— yes. you knew, on the basis of both the e-mail of the 5th of december l the e—mail of the 5th of december 2010 and — the e—mail of the 5th of december 2010 and the e—mail of the 5th of january— 2010 and the e—mail of the 5th of january 2011, that fujitsu could remotely — january 2011, that fujitsu could remotely access the system. asl remotely access the system. as i said, i remotely access the system. as i said. i don't— remotely access the system. is i said, i don't remember the remotely access the system. 23 i said, i don't remember the 5th remotely access the system. 2.3 i said, i don't remember the 5th of december one, but on the e—mail that tracey sent to me, that was all the information that i had been provided with at that point. flan

information that i had been provided with at that point.— with at that point. can we go back to -a~e with at that point. can we go back to page 41. _ with at that point. can we go back to page 41, please? _ mr bakersays, as mr baker says, as you can appreciate, it is a simple computer at the _ appreciate, it is a simple computer at the end — appreciate, it is a simple computer at the end of the day sitting at the end of— at the end of the day sitting at the end of an — at the end of the day sitting at the end of an isdn line, if someone knows _ end of an isdn line, if someone knows what they are doing, they can hack it _ knows what they are doing, they can hack it if— knows what they are doing, they can hack it if they have the access rights — hack it if they have the access rights. records would be kept for that somewhere because you cannot even look _ that somewhere because you cannot even look at a computer without it keeping _ even look at a computer without it keeping a — even look at a computer without it keeping a log of what has gone on. you see, _ keeping a log of what has gone on. you see, there is an audit trail. he says. _ you see, there is an audit trail. he says. you — you see, there is an audit trail. he says, you know it is ultimately someone _ says, you know it is ultimately someone within fewjets to who could -et someone within fewjets to who could get into— someone within fewjets to who could get into a _ someone within fewjets to who could get into a unit and do whatever they need to— get into a unit and do whatever they need to do — get into a unit and do whatever they need to do. you see, not without being _ need to do. you see, not without being seen— need to do. you see, not without being seen to have done that. mr gillibrand — being seen to have done that. mr gillibrand says, this is military level— gillibrand says, this is military level security we have with horizon, it is highly— level security we have with horizon, it is highly encrypt it and safe, it means— it is highly encrypt it and safe, it means all— it is highly encrypt it and safe, it means all of the external tests. why

didn't— means all of the external tests. why didn't you _ means all of the external tests. why didn't you reveal what you had learned — didn't you reveal what you had learned in _ didn't you reveal what you had learned in the e—mail of the 5th of december? — learned in the e-mail of the 5th of december?— december? because, as i say, i didn't remember— december? because, as i say, i didn't remember seeing - december? because, as i say, i didn't remember seeing that i december? because, as i say, i- didn't remember seeing that e-mail, didn't remember seeing that e—mail, and therefore that had no bearing on my discussion at this meeting. the information i took into this meeting was from the tracey marshall e—mail that came in the day before. so was from the tracey marshall e-mail that came in the day before.- that came in the day before. so this is a month after— that came in the day before. so this is a month after you _ that came in the day before. so this is a month after you received i that came in the day before. so this is a month after you received that i is a month after you received that e-mail _ is a month after you received that e—mail. why was it not ringing any bells? _ e—mail. why was it not ringing any bells? as— e-mail. why was it not ringing any bells? ~ , e-mail. why was it not ringing any bells? a , ., _ e-mail. why was it not ringing any bells? , bells? as i said previously, i don't recall receiving _ bells? as i said previously, i don't recall receiving that _ bells? as i said previously, i don't recall receiving that e-mail, i bells? as i said previously, i don't recall receiving that e-mail, and l recall receiving that e—mail, and the contents of that e—mail had not registered if i had seen it. i don't believe i did, because, as i said earlier, it would have stuck in my mind because of the way that e—mail was constructed. it is very strange.

so i don't believe i had seen the contents of those e—mails coming into this meeting. haifa contents of those e-mails coming into this meeting.— contents of those e-mails coming into this meeting. how was tracey marshall qualified _ into this meeting. how was tracey marshall qualified to _ into this meeting. how was tracey marshall qualified to tell - into this meeting. how was tracey marshall qualified to tell you i into this meeting. how was tracey | marshall qualified to tell you about the integrity of the horizon system? tracey _ the integrity of the horizon system? tracey marshall herself was passing that on from... i forget who she said, maybe andy maclean. he would have been the senior person in it. she says that she had had conversation with andy maclean and dave holmwood. he conversation with andy maclean and dave holmwood.— conversation with andy maclean and dave holmwood. he is a senior person in the it function. _ dave holmwood. he is a senior person in the it function. i _ dave holmwood. he is a senior person in the it function. i cannot _ dave holmwood. he is a senior person in the it function. i cannot speak- in the it function. i cannot speak for tracey�*s knowledge of horizon, she was not an it person. she would have known that if kevin asked her to get some information, it was important and that you pass it on had she received it, which is what i believe she did in the e—mail. you believe she did in the e-mail. you were being _

believe she did in the e—mail. you were being challenged here by a trusted — were being challenged here by a trusted sub—postmaster and her husband. — trusted sub—postmaster and her husband, won't you? | trusted sub-postmaster and her husband, won't you?— trusted sub-postmaster and her husband, won't you? i didn't know them and l — husband, won't you? i didn't know them and i had _ husband, won't you? i didn't know them and i had nothing _ husband, won't you? i didn't know them and i had nothing to - husband, won't you? i didn't know them and i had nothing to dispute| them and i had nothing to dispute that they were anything other than trusted. did that they were anything other than trusted. , , ., ., . , that they were anything other than trusted. , , ., ., ., , ., trusted. did you do anything to investigate _ trusted. did you do anything to investigate whether _ trusted. did you do anything to investigate whether what i trusted. did you do anything to | investigate whether what tracey trusted. did you do anything to i investigate whether what tracey told you was _ investigate whether what tracey told you was right in light of this interview? i didn't, you was right in light of this interview? ididn't, i you was right in light of this interview? i didn't, itook you was right in light of this interview? i didn't, i took it at face _ interview? i didn't, i took it at face value _ interview? i didn't, i took it at face value. it was all kind of back to back, — face value. it was all kind of back to back, coming into this meeting. it is to back, coming into this meeting. it is at _ to back, coming into this meeting. it is at 4:59pm on the monday, sorry, on the wednesday. and this is on the thursday. this wasn't my meeting. it was kevin's meeting. he asked me to come in and support him, i thought more from an operational perspective. i think kevin did work and a branch at some point, but he didn't have the relevant and

up—to—date experience that i had,