this is bbc news. we'll have the headlines for you at the top of the hour, which is straight after this programme. hello, everybody, a very warm welcome to talking business weekly with me, aaron heslehurst. let's go take a look at what is on the show. ai presents what we think is potentially an existential threat to artists, to the music industry, to our culture, really. how do you like your music? downloaded, streamed 7 or if you're old school, maybe a dash of vinyl or cd? or how about written by a robot? with artificial intelligence now able to generate music on command, replicating recording artists�* voices, and even create avatars of famous musicians, it has never been a more exciting time for the music industry — nor a more uncertain one. so, just what does the future of music look like and who stands to profit?

the artists, the record labels, or the tech giants? i'm going to be discussing all of that with these two — the head of the organisation working to protect the rights of recording artists, and the big boss of the swedish entertainment company behind the virtual show, abba voyage. also on the show — the healthy business generating healthier profits. the boss of the global supplement company, h&h group, dispenses his wisdom on why our appetite for vitamins is growing. wherever you'rejoining me from around the world, once again, a big hello and a warm welcome to the show. you know, it's been called music's second digital wave. the first saw the move from records and cds to downloads and streaming, with the rise of the streaming giants like spotify, amazon and apple. now advanced tech, such as artificial intelligence, virtual reality and avatars, are fueling new opportunities to boost profits with everything from virtual

concerts to songs written by robots. this time, though, it's not the artist and not even the record labels that stand to profit — but the tech giants. earlier this year, we saw the launch of suno, hailed as the gift for music, using al to produce human—like songs instantly from brief text cues, all at the press of a button. so, to give you an idea, we tested suno and typed in, "write me a love song about chickens." this was the result. music plays. so, there you go. see how easy it is to produce a song in seconds? and that's what the industry is worried about. with artificial intelligence able to produce hundreds of songs in seconds, the sheer volume of new ai tracks is flooding streaming platforms, which the industry says is diluting profits

for genuine artists. so, let's take a look at the numbers. the global recorded music market grew by over 10% in 2023. it's the second highest growth rate on record, valuing that market at over $28 billion. more than two thirds of that revenue was generated from streaming, growing more than 10% in 2023 to close to $20 billion. an estimated 120,000 new tracks are uploaded to music streaming services every single day. but more than a third of those are said to be written by ai, and that number is rising. another issue challenging music bosses is that al is now so sophisticated, it can replicate the voice of, well, anyone. and that's given rise to a wave of fake new songs claiming to be by artists such as drake, the weeknd and justin bieber, which have seen hundreds of thousands of streams on music apps before being removed,

something the streaming giants are trying to crack down on. today, music companies are helping artists, rightsholders and tech companies figure out this new world, which is both exciting and daunting. it's ourjob to not only help amplify artists�* creativity, but to protect their rights, their livelihoods and their identities. across the industry, legends from roberta flack to the beatles have embraced ai as a tool to enhance their creativity. at the same time, generative ai is appropriating artists�* identities and producing deepfakes that depict people doing, saying or singing things that have never happened before. recently, more than 200 recording artists, including billie eilish, nicki minaj and the estate of frank sinatra, signed an open letter calling on tech giants to stop ai from — well, what they claim is devaluing their work.

so, i caught up with the head of the organisation behind that letter. its goal is to protect artists�* rights. jenjacobson, thanks so much forjoining us. jen, let me start with this, because 200 plus artists they signed your open letter calling on tech companies to stop ai use that devalues their music and infringes upon the rights of human artists. so, jen, just explain what it is that artists are so worried about. so, this was a letter that the artists rights alliance facilitated, sent out to online platforms, digital services and technology companies. and what we were trying to do was address these companies directly saying, "you need to be responsible "player in this music marketplace that is changing so rapidly," because ai presents what we think is potentially an existential threat to artists, to the music industry, to our culture, really. and so, what we�*re calling on them to do is to work

with us, to use ai in an ethical manner. what we�*re concerned about, really, is the devaluation of music that can happen if ai is used in a way that could replace human artists. and that�*s ultimately what we�*re worried about, the replacement of artists, the inability for artists not only to make a livelihood from their work, but actually to have their work be accessible by fans any more. it�*s a real threat, and artists are really worried. and what we noticed, so we put this letter out, and it took off in a way i can�*t say that i was surprised, but it was it was bigger than we even could have imagined, because artists are worried, artists are nervous. and the interesting thing about the letter is that it appealed to a wide range of artists, ranging from big names that you�*ve heard

of to much smaller names. these working musicians who say to themselves, is there going to be a place for me in this new world? so it was exciting to see. well, jen, i�*ve got to ask you. is ai more of a threat to artists than, say, a benefit? i think you�*re absolutely right that al has some tremendous advantages, exciting opportunities. artists have been using ai for a while as tools in the production studio, in the creation of beats and harmonies. there�*s so many ways that al can be used in an exciting way. the threat comes when this generative ai is used in a way that artists don�*t have any input, any choice, any control over it. and their work becomes subject to these exploitative uses that they have no idea about. so, we�*re really about getting

some guardrails onto the way ai is used, not having ai be eliminated. i mean, that wouldn�*t be possible, and nor would we want it to be that way. there are wonderful ways that al can be used. but, yes, in its current form, without these guardrails, ai is potentially more of a threat than a positive use. the key for us, for all artists, is consent and compensation. and at the first blush, before anything else, transparency — transparency. the artist has to know what�*s going on with their work, with their voice, with their likeness, and unfortunately, that�*s not happening right now. well, jen, here�*s the billion—dollar question. with so much money to be made, i�*m kind of wondering, will the tech companies listen? that is the question of the day, of the century, right? i think some will and some won�*t.

this is the truth of the matter. we have seen, over and over, new technologies come to bear, many of which are exciting and many of which are threatening to artists, to the music community. often the music community is kind of the canary in the coal mine on these things. we see it first, we experience it first. and what we�*ve seen usually is that the threats that are created are, at least to some extent, solved when responsible companies work together to create some kind of a system, like a licensing system that will work for both for the technology companies and for the creators. well, jen, let me end on this. in ten years�* time, what developments will we have seen in the music industry? my dream is that we�*ll have a robust licensing system where exciting technology like ai can be used with consent of the music creator�*s full knowledge

and to create wonderful content that is inspired by the human artists themselves. so, the passion and human experience and inspiration that can only come from human creators continues to be what leads us, what what kind of guides the music, and the ai is an exciting tool that can amplify and assist, but it does not overtake or replace the human creators. because, really, nothing can do that. a machine cannot do what a human artist can do. it just will never substitute

for that experience, that passion, that human feeling, the soul. and so, my dream is that the music will continue to have that human soul, and ai will be richly amplifying that in a way that doesn�*t devalue and replace those those human creators. those human creators. can we get there? i hope so. well, on that point, jenjacobson, the big boss of the artists rights association, great to have you with us. thanks for your time, we�*ll check in with you soon. thanks so much, thanks for having me. whether it�*s restoring old recordings that have been collecting virtual dust on record label shelves, such as the recently released new beatles song featuring the latejohn lennon, or giving new life to the works of artists who no longer can or want to go on tour — and that all adds up to reaching new audiences and ultimately

boosting coffers. so, i decided to catch up with the big boss of the company behind abba voyage — a concert with virtual avatars of the swedish pop group as they were back in 1979. per sundin, great to have you on the show. and let me start with this, because you�*ve spoken in the past about focusing on catalogued music. just exactly what does that mean? we categorise it like music that's older than 18 months. and for us, when we're looking into artists, we want a catalogue we want to buy, we need them to be at least five years old. because that is something that is not on the top of the charts, but it's something that we really believe in if we do the right thing. we're looking into artists that we not only do a financial due diligence, we do a narrative and a brand due diligence. is there a story to tell about this artist? is the lyrics fantastic around this artist we can create a story? or is the life of this artist fantastic? that is what we're looking

for and that's what we call the catalogue music. abba voyage, it�*s a model where artists can stay pretty much forever young and in their prime. but it does beg the question, could we or will we possibly one day see concerts from from artists who are no longer with us? i mean, the likes of elvis, prince, frank sinatra, for example? yes, i think that's closer to... when we did abba voyage, the fantastic thing that was at the four of them actually contributed with their own bodies and dancing, performing, singing 25 songs in a studio in stockholm. and that was that was really essential to make it as perfect as possible. today, you don't need to have all that. you could do it different today. meaning you could see an artist perform, and we could create something with an artist that isn't with us any more. that will happen in the future.

per, does this up a murky area, though? i mean, are there ethics involved in bringing an artist back to life, so to speak? of course it is. i think that's very sensitive. the new beatles song, that was a john lennon song. i think it was quite, you know, i read some things about, you know, what would john lennon approve this if he was alive today? and no—one knows, you know. a lot of arguments on both sides. same thing with if if you would do an elvis show or you do a michaeljackson show, or even do a beatles show, you know, would they want to do that, would they? and i think that's very, very important to ask that question and maybe also say that, no, we we don't know. and we actually think that he or she, or they didn't want to do this and then we shouldn't do it. but, you know, that's how we think about it, and we we really ask those questions.

you can take that, especially when it comes to ai, so, we could actually, if we wanted, do kiss songs, new kiss songs. well, but should we or do we want to do that? or what would the fans say about that? would it be it will sound like in the future? in the near future, it will be good songs, but it wouldn't be kiss songs. you�*ve been credited as being instrumental in the rise of the streaming giant spotify. so i�*m kind of wondering, was it a case ofjust having to get on board with this new way of listening to music or, i don�*t know, simply going out of business? if you go back to to 2000 when the heydays of selling cds and the music business had a peak, the global music business. and napster came and kazaa, and eventually pirate bay. in 2008, pirate bay was the fifth biggest site on the internet. people was downloading across the world, stealing music, stealing video, stealing movies and series just like crazy.

it was terrible. you know, i had to fire 250 people in the music business. and people say, oh, no—one care about you and no one care you know, i had to fire 250 people in the music business. and people say, oh, no—one care about you and no—one care about the music business because you're dinosaurs. you're going to end to exist in the future. but at the same time, you know, you know, it was really a sad situation. and then don alec and his team developed spotify and ijust changed from from sony to universal. and for me, it was like i went all in because, you know, it wasn't because i was smart. you know, it was i was desperate because i needed to find a new sound career that i and my peers and peers at other record companies and people working together with me and the artists could make money from. and that was spotify. so, my thing was that i went all in on it. i had to believe in something because otherwise the music market in sweden was dead.

well, per, i�*ve got to ask you this. do you see recent developments in al, in the music industry as a force for good? or, as dolly parton puts it, and i quote, the mark of the beast? i think all new introductions of techniques or sound carrier systems will be questioned, rightly. i mean, i rememberthe video cassette when it came through, when everyone said, you know, this is crazx _ when the computer came, everyone said they said this is a machine of satan. you know, this is not something we should work with. why should we have this? every new technique shifts or every new things have been introduced has been questioned. and, you know, it should be. and then you can say, ok, is there is there a bad thing about it? is there a good thing about it? and i think so with al, i think it's a fantastic evolvement and evolution of new technique. it's also going to be scary. i signed avicii in 2010. he couldn't play any instruments. he downloaded froot loops to his computer and started

learning how to do music thanks to software. for me, that's ai. he had such talent. his way to work and to create music was thanks to this ai tool and other tools became came after. i think we're going to see with al creations, if it's pictures, if it's videos, if it's architecture, if it's an art, if it's music, we're going to see sensational things coming. well, on that point, per sundin, the big boss of pop house entertainment. fabulous to have you on the show, best of luck with everything and we�*ll talk to you again soon. thank you for having me. 0k, moving on.

it�*s $1,000,000,000 industry generating healthy profits in more ways than one. i�*m talking about the global nutritional supplements market, which is tipped to generate over $620 billion by 2030. increases in health care costs, long waiting lists for treatment, and a growing interest in health and well—being — it has fueled demand for vitamins and supplements, and notjust for adults, but for children, and even our pets. so i decided to check in with the boss of the global supplements business, h&r group, akash bedi. akash, really appreciate your time. let me start with this because on this week�*s show, we�*ve been talking a lot about technology and in particular artificial intelligence, ai. how is al being used in your company and also in the wider health and well—being industries? i think artificial intelligence is today the new buzzword that circles around in every discussion that we look at it. we are using quite a lot

of machine learning programmes, or ai, if i may call it, to underline to first underline the improve our consumer demand. basically sense have predictive modeling. what are the consumers really thinking? why are they buying this product? what makes them to make this purchase as well? so, we have various external working with parties like flywheel or in—house proprietary tools as well that we use this for analysis to understand the consumer behavior first and foremost, most important. and also trying to have our marketing mix model improve to the extent we can do. so that�*s from a front end consumerfacing. and, akash, let�*s talk about the numbers, because the global nutritional supplements market, it is set to reach nearly $622 billion by 2030. you yourselves, you continue to see growth year on year. so, i have to ask you, what�*s behind the growth trend? it�*s true that this adoption rate of nutritional supplements, in particular where we are present,

has kind of deepened post—covid because they believe a good health will tend to avoid their expensive insurance bills, help them to go to theirjob and to be properly. and, akash, i�*ve got to ask you this, because and you know very well the critics the critics might argue that we should alljust eat better and healthier. i mean, vitamins and supplements, as we know, relatively a new thing, first sold, i believe, in the early 20th century. but many of the critics will ask, do we really need them? i believe so. i think we did a study with a third party agency, i think during even the great depression, or recession in 2008 and in 2016, if i�*m picking up the years correctly, when people were leaving jobs they were spending still equal amount on the supplements despite not being into thejob and they were spending less on their other spending areas. because they believe a good

well—being is better, or not to be there, because they believe that, you know, our income levels are not rising as fast as we need to be. but if we keep our good well—being, this will help to avoid later some issues behind it. but how do we as consumers, how do we know that they work? i can talk about h&h in particular. for us, our key focus always remains to bring the best and the right products to the market. right. 0ur r&d team rigorously works us to bring the best out of it. but we also demonstrating that through real—world studies. what real world studies means is that we give these products as a real product to almost depending on the batch size we look at into the relevant country, between 200 to 400, and they try those products for a period of six to nine months and basically come up with their feedback as to what change they felt before and after. and this is not only that we give to define the end product, but we give them also the placebo products,

so we can measure that the consumers who did not receive that product, did they measure any impact with that or not? and of course, it�*s not just our own health that we want to protect. i mean, there�*s a booming market in pet supplements. ijust did a show not too long ago on the global pet industry. but i�*ve got to ask you this. isn�*t there an argument that pet food manufacturers should already be creating pet food that has, well, all the optimal ingredients for a healthy diet without the need for pet supplements? i tend to differ on that. bbecause we always said that you need a complete nutrition and we said when we give supplements to them. we are talking about longevity. is to improve the quality of the life. if you look at even on the human side, right, we said, ok, having a balanced diet or an exercise is sufficient enough. but we do know that there is a deficiency where whatever we look at it like. asians tend to be vitamin d deficient. so, even if you have milk or otherfood products associated with that, but you

cannot cover all those things. and pets are not very different to that. so we do believe that giving this increased supplementation helps to increase the quality of their life, because we need of their life, because we need to make sure that they get every essential ingredients behind it. akash, what challenges do you see for the the supplement market over, let�*s say, over the next ten years or so? the biggest thing is about the usage rate, like you had mentioned as well, that does the supplement i take work or not? so it�*s basically goes to the credibility of the institution. we as one as well the biggest stakeholder in this industry that we are equally educating our consumer towards a benefit—led approach. so, instead of creating the push, to create a pull towards it. and that�*s where we are in fact doing a lot of partnerships, not only with our contract management, but also with ingredient providers and other research firms where we collaboration to look at the benefit and explain to them.

so i think the biggest challenge is also the opportunity is to educate our consumers on the benefit and the trust towards it. well, before i go, i�*ve got to ask you this. what sort of supplements do you take? i take few of them. so, one is a liver detox, which is, you know, because i travel quite a lot, to help my better body metabolism, and also vitamin d. well, on that note, akash bedi, the big boss of h&h group, a real pleasure having you on the show. thanks for your time, good luck with everything. thank you. well, that�*s it for this week�*s show. i hope you enjoyed it. don�*t forget, you can keep up with the latest on our global economy on the bbc website or smartphone app. of course you can also follow me on x. i�*ll see you soon. bye—bye.

hello there. it�*s the warmest day of the year so far across all four nations on saturday, with temperatures peaking at 26 degrees celsius in the highlands and also in east sussex, too. but change is on its way on sunday in the form of heavy, thundery showers for much of the western half of the uk, whereas further east, it should stay largely dry. all this change is brought about, of course, because the high pressure that�*s been keeping us dry, settled and warm over the last few days is gradually drifting further eastwards towards scandinavia, allowing for these weather fronts to approach from the west. weather fronts to but it�*s a mostly dry start to the day on sunday with some sunny spells, any early mist and fog will lift and clear really quite readily. but it won�*t be too long through the late morning before we see the showers pop up across western scotland, down through northern ireland, wales and the south west of england. and if we just take a little tour at around four o�*clock in the afternoon, you can see the shower across northern and western scotland gradually drifting further east with some of the showers really quite heavy. it�*s still quite warm — 22 degrees celsius in glasgow, but certainly cooler than on saturday. more showers across northern ireland, some of the showers particularly heavy across wales. there could be some localised

flooding perhaps as well. more isolated showers for central southern england, maybe 26 or 27 degrees celsius in southeast england. cooler and breezier towards those north sea facing coasts. and overnight, those showers will continue to drift further eastwards. but this is the main driver of monday�*s weather — this deep area of low pressure that�*s going to roll this weather front in from the southwest. so, again, a largely dry start to the day for the vast majority, but cloud thickening from the south west, rain pushing into wales from southwest england and eventually northern ireland through the afternoon, as well as scattering showers across scotland and northern england. but again across many eastern areas of england. it could stay largely dry, but it will be cooler across the board. but still temperatures peaking in the low 20s out towards the east, but the area of low pressure just continues to roll its way further northwards and eastwards as we head through tuesday and into wednesday. so, there will be further showers around at times for many in general. here�*s the outlook for our capital cities as we head through next week and see those temperatures really start to drop off. there will still be some sunshine around, lots of dry weather at times, but also some showers, too.

bye— bye.

live from washington. this is bbc news. israel orders more evacuations in gaza�*s southern city of rafah as it intensifies military operations. sweeping pro—europe protests in tbilisi, georgia — as the country moves forward with a bill critics say will clamp down on dissent. is done it! switzerland have one 68 eurovision song contest. plus: the eurovision song contest crowns switzerland as it�*s winner. we�*ll get reaction from malmo in sweden. hello i�*m helena humphrey. good to happy with us. israel has ordered thousands more people to leave the city of rafah in southern gaza — as it presses on with its military campaign

there against hamas. the israel defense forces have declared a narrow coastal strip