this is bbc news, the headlines. inquiry has called for a huge overhaul this is bbc news, the headlines. inquiry has called for a huge overhaul of this is bbc news, the headlines. inquiry has called for a huge overhaul of maternity this is bbc news, the headlines. inquiry has called for a huge overhaul of maternity and this is bbc news, the headlines. inquiry has called for a huge overhaul of maternity and postnatal care. the findings of the inquiry will be presented by the government today. louisa pilbeam reports. the birth ofjel castle�*s baby boy was dramatic. she was left needing a stoma bag after mistakes in her maternity care. she spoke to bbc breakfast earlier this year.- breakfast earlier this year. either with a fourth _ breakfast earlier this year. either with a fourth degree _ breakfast earlier this year. either with a fourth degree tear- breakfast earlier this year. either with a fourth degree tear and - breakfast earlier this year. either with a fourth degree tear and a l with a fourth degree tear and a recto regina fasting and an abscess which burst, none was diagnosed until five days after the baby was born. jill until five days after the baby was born. , . , �* until five days after the baby was born. , ., �* ., ., , born. jill wasn't alone. the first uk inquiry _ born. jill wasn't alone. the first uk inquiry into _ born. jill wasn't alone. the first uk inquiry into birth _ born. jill wasn't alone. the first uk inquiry into birth trauma - born. jill wasn't alone. the first i uk inquiry into birth trauma has heard what it calls harrowing evidence from more than 1000 women. some women said they were left in

blood soaked sheets on maternity wards without help. evidence was given about babies who were injured during birth and many women said they weren't listened to. birth trauma is thought to affect 30,000 women a year in the uk, a term which refers to negative birth experiences such as serious blood loss and emergency cesarean is. one in 20 women developed post—traumatic stress disorder. it’s women developed post-traumatic stress disorder.— stress disorder. it's really patronising. _ stress disorder. it's really patronising, in _ stress disorder. it's really patronising, in my- stress disorder. it's really. patronising, in my opinion, stress disorder. it's really - patronising, in my opinion, not to give women the information about what it's like to have a baby because we are able to cope with this kind of information. the report from an all-party _ this kind of information. the report from an all-party parliamentary i from an all—party parliamentary group calls for urgent change, including ending the postcode lottery on perinatal care, call for a new maternity commissioner to be appointed and the government to publish a new national maternity strategy. the report also calls for more support for partners of those having a baby and for ethnic

minorities. the findings of the inquiry will be officially presented today and the health minister will set out the government's response. louisa pilbeam, bbc news. staying with the story, let's join the nikki campbell programme on the bbc�*s 5 live as they take calls from people who have experienced this issue personally. most other developed countries, the question we are asking, what the hell is going on? this is after the country's first parliamentary inquiries into birth trauma has found shockingly poor quality in maternity services. it is estimated 30,000 women a year in the uk alone have suffered negative experiences. 0ne have suffered negative experiences. one in 20 developed post—traumatic stress disorder. we have been talking about this for half an hour already on the radio on radio 5 live. you join us on bbc news. we

had an incredible call from jess detailing every twist and turn of her nightmare experience. currently on the line we have eugene yu. hi, again, and hannah in hitchen. you're talking about, pick up the story, three months premature, and then you are taken from one side of the hospital to the other. i think one of the things which a lot of people may want to address is the lack of communication, the message is not getting to you about actually what was happening. i think it was alljust a bit chaotic because as i said earlier i don't think i really believed how far along i was and then i was ten centimetres dilated, pushing, and having to be transferred to another room. and i was asking for quite a lot of pain relief. i was asking for pain relief and i was told to any it is too early, can't happen yet. i had had a little bit. and all of a sudden it was too late and i felt

frustrated by that because i had been really clear with what i had wanted. and another thing that happened, there is quite a lot of shift change and a midwife came in and was talking about me in front of me and didn't know my name. tojust have someone so blatantly talking and not knowing my name in front of me. it and not knowing my name in front of me. , , ~' and not knowing my name in front of me. , , ~ ., me. it is little things like that, isn't it? basic. _ me. it is little things like that, isn't it? basic. it— me. it is little things like that, isn't it? basic. it gave - me. it is little things like that, isn't it? basic. it gave me - me. it is little things like that, isn't it? basic. it gave me no l isn't it? basic. it gave me no feelin: isn't it? basic. it gave me no feeling that _ isn't it? basic. it gave me no feeling that i _ isn't it? basic. it gave me no feeling that i was _ isn't it? basic. it gave me no feeling that i was being - isn't it? basic. it gave me no l feeling that i was being looked after. so yeah, it was just quite a stressful traumatic birth. i didn't really feel like i was listened to. the second birth i had, so more recently, was at a different hospital. it was still traumatic. 0bviously hospital. it was still traumatic. obviously i had a lot of trauma from the first time. i had counselling while i was pregnant with my second child and to help processing the

birth trauma. ifound child and to help processing the birth trauma. i found that really useful and it also gave me a little bit more confidence, trying to be able to articulate my needs. i think one of the things i found with my son was that i felt very out of control. ifelt like son was that i felt very out of control. i felt like things were being done to me and it was happening around me and i didn't really have much control over it. but yeah, the counselling was helpful in between because the idea of going through the birth again when pregnant with my second was a really hard thing to contemplate. it sounds like you so needed it. goodness me. don't go too far away. let's share experiences. you genie in a second and amanda in northampton. allow me to go to amanda first. thank you, amanda. your experience, another very —1. yeah, hi, nicky. it was very

traumatic _ yeah, hi, nicky. it was very traumatic. from the moment i got in, i will traumatic. from the moment i got in, iwiii start_ traumatic. from the moment i got in, i will start from the actual story. i will start from the actual story. iwas _ i will start from the actual story. i was actually in pain, i was induced _ i was actually in pain, i was induced. within a couple of hours of being _ induced. within a couple of hours of being induced i started having contractions. i basically got my husband — contractions. i basically got my husband to go to the midwife and say i'm husband to go to the midwife and say i'm having _ husband to go to the midwife and say i'm having pain, and having contractions. she said no, you can't be, it's_ contractions. she said no, you can't be, it's not— contractions. she said no, you can't be, it's not possible, it's not possible. _ be, it's not possible, it's not possible, it isjust a reaction to you being — possible, it isjust a reaction to you being induced. sol possible, it isjust a reaction to you being induced. so i was like, 0k. you being induced. so i was like, 0k~ i_ you being induced. so i was like, ok. i believe it was a new drug they were _ ok. i believe it was a new drug they were using — ok. i believe it was a new drug they were using. sol ok. i believe it was a new drug they were using. so i was like 0k, i've had a— were using. so i was like 0k, i've had a child — were using. so i was like 0k, i've had a child before, maybe this is something — had a child before, maybe this is something different. then it started to get— something different. then it started to get more severe and more severe and i_ to get more severe and more severe and i was — to get more severe and more severe and i was like this doesn't feel right, — and i was like this doesn't feel right, and _ and i was like this doesn't feel right, and every time i approached the midwife, or my husband did, it would _ the midwife, or my husband did, it would he _ the midwife, or my husband did, it would be the same response, no, you're _ would be the same response, no, you're not— would be the same response, no, you're not in— would be the same response, no, you're not in pain, not in pain. it -ot you're not in pain, not in pain. it got to— you're not in pain, not in pain. it got to the— you're not in pain, not in pain. it got to the point where i think i was

liy got to the point where i think i was by this— got to the point where i think i was by this time — got to the point where i think i was by this time going to the toilet thinking — by this time going to the toilet thinking i wanted to go to the toilet— thinking i wanted to go to the toilet and i was actually pushing, coming _ toilet and i was actually pushing, coming backwards and forwards, and i don't think— coming backwards and forwards, and i don't think there was even a clue that why— don't think there was even a clue that why would i be going to toilet so often? — that why would i be going to toilet so often? but anyway i was going to toilet. _ so often? but anyway i was going to toilet, coming back and pushing, thinking — toilet, coming back and pushing, thinking i— toilet, coming back and pushing, thinking i need to go to toilet, need — thinking i need to go to toilet, need to— thinking i need to go to toilet, need to do a number two because obviously— need to do a number two because obviously something is happening. i came _ obviously something is happening. i came back— obviously something is happening. i came back and i was in so much pain. inthe— came back and i was in so much pain. inthe end— came back and i was in so much pain. inthe end of— came back and i was in so much pain. in the end of my husband went and said, _ in the end of my husband went and said. look. — in the end of my husband went and said, look, there's something going on, said, look, there's something going on. you _ said, look, there's something going on, you need to come. and what happened — on, you need to come. and what happened this time was there was a midwife, _ happened this time was there was a midwife, anaesthetist and a doctor and they— midwife, anaesthetist and a doctor and they said to me to lay on the bed and — and they said to me to lay on the bed and the midwife examined me. i laid on _ bed and the midwife examined me. i laid on the _ bed and the midwife examined me. i laid on the bed and she said no, you are not— laid on the bed and she said no, you are not in_ laid on the bed and she said no, you are not in labour, i'm telling you, you are— are not in labour, i'm telling you, you are three centimetres dilated, that is— you are three centimetres dilated, that is all— you are three centimetres dilated, that is all you are, and i thought that is all you are, and i thought that can't— that is all you are, and i thought that can't be, i mean so much pain, i that can't be, i mean so much pain, i know— that can't be, i mean so much pain, iknow ihu— that can't be, i mean so much pain, i know i'm in— that can't be, i mean so much pain, i know i'm in labour. no, you're not _ i know i'm in labour. no, you're not ok — i know i'm in labour. no, you're not ok she— i know i'm in labour. no, you're not. ok. she said, why don't you go and have _ not. ok. she said, why don't you go and have a — not. ok. she said, why don't you go and have a bath? and i was like, 0k.

and have a bath? and i was like, ok. so i and have a bath? and i was like, ok. so i went, _ and have a bath? and i was like, ok. so i went, i_ and have a bath? and i was like, ok. so i went, i took my husband, brought— so i went, i took my husband, brought the towel and sat in the bath _ brought the towel and sat in the bath i_ brought the towel and sat in the bath i sat — brought the towel and sat in the bath. i sat in the bath for about maybe — bath. i sat in the bath for about maybe two minutes. within two minutes — maybe two minutes. within two minutes i— maybe two minutes. within two minutes i got out and said oh my gosh. _ minutes i got out and said oh my gosh. i_ minutes i got out and said oh my gosh, i mean so much pain. i said i have _ gosh, i mean so much pain. i said i have to _ gosh, i mean so much pain. i said i have to get — gosh, i mean so much pain. i said i have to get out, have to go to the toilet _ have to get out, have to go to the toilet he — have to get out, have to go to the toilet. he said it's ok, go to the toilet— toilet. he said it's ok, go to the toilet with — toilet. he said it's ok, go to the toilet with me in here. i went over the toilet— toilet with me in here. i went over the toilet and screamed so loud, my son was— the toilet and screamed so loud, my son was coming out of the other end. 0h, son was coming out of the other end. oh. my— son was coming out of the other end. oh. my god — son was coming out of the other end. oh, my god-— son was coming out of the other end. oh, my god. when i screamed, other --eole oh, my god. when i screamed, other peeple started _ oh, my god. when i screamed, other people started coming _ oh, my god. when i screamed, other people started coming in. _ oh, my god. when i screamed, other people started coming in. i _ oh, my god. when i screamed, other people started coming in. i couldn't l people started coming in. i couldn't even think because _ people started coming in. i couldn't even think because i _ people started coming in. i couldn't even think because i thought, - people started coming in. i couldn'tl even think because i thought, what's going _ even think because i thought, what's going on— even think because i thought, what's going on here? and everybody was like a _ going on here? and everybody was like a go _ going on here? and everybody was like a go and get this, go and get that like ago and get this, go and get that i_ like a go and get this, go and get that i could hear people shouting and he _ that i could hear people shouting and he caught his head as he was falling _ and he caught his head as he was falling out — and he caught his head as he was falling out of me over the toilet. and then — falling out of me over the toilet. and then obviously there was loads of blood _ and then obviously there was loads of blood. there was loads of number twos. _ of blood. there was loads of number twos. there — of blood. there was loads of number twos, there was no awful experience i've twos, there was no awful experience i've ever _ twos, there was no awful experience i've ever had. —— that was the most

awful— i've ever had. —— that was the most awful experience i've ever had. i looked _ awful experience i've ever had. i looked at — awful experience i've ever had. i looked at my son and thought whose baby is— looked at my son and thought whose baby is that? i had to walk back with— baby is that? i had to walk back with the — baby is that? i had to walk back with the umbilical cord swinging between — with the umbilical cord swinging between my legs. they managed to get scissors _ between my legs. they managed to get scissors and _ between my legs. they managed to get scissors and all that but i had to walk— scissors and all that but i had to walk back— scissors and all that but i had to walk back with the umbilical cord swinging — walk back with the umbilical cord swinging between my legs back to the bed. swinging between my legs back to the bed when _ swinging between my legs back to the bed. when i sat back on the bed the midwife _ bed. when i sat back on the bed the midwife came in and you could see she was— midwife came in and you could see she was embarrassed that she hadn't believed _ she was embarrassed that she hadn't believed me. the doctor came and she apologised _ believed me. the doctor came and she apologised. i'm so sorry. i didn't believe — apologised. i'm so sorry. i didn't believe you _ apologised. i'm so sorry. i didn't believe you. i didn't even actually believe you. ididn't even actually answer— believe you. ididn't even actually answer her— believe you. i didn't even actually answer her when she stood there saying _ answer her when she stood there saying she — answer her when she stood there saying she was sorry. you'd think after— saying she was sorry. you'd think after all— saying she was sorry. you'd think after all that mess up they had done that would _ after all that mess up they had done that would be it. but after that they— that would be it. but after that they sent — that would be it. but after that they sent me home, well, actually went— they sent me home, well, actually went home — they sent me home, well, actually went home because i didn't want to stay _ went home because i didn't want to stay i_ went home because i didn't want to stay i had — went home because i didn't want to stay. i had after birth after that and i_ stay. i had after birth after that and i was — stay. i had after birth after that and i was sick with the afterbirth. i and i was sick with the afterbirth. i had _ and i was sick with the afterbirth. i had to— and i was sick with the afterbirth. i had to come back to the hospital and the _ i had to come back to the hospital and the afterbirth fell out whilst i

was in _ and the afterbirth fell out whilst i was in the — and the afterbirth fell out whilst i was in the shower and it was a sight to behold _ was in the shower and it was a sight to behold i— was in the shower and it was a sight to behold. i came back and i had to have _ to behold. i came back and i had to have antibiotics. and because i had to have _ have antibiotics. and because i had to have antibiotics i couldn't breast—feed my son. the whole thing left me _ breast—feed my son. the whole thing left me traumatised, not being able to breast—feed my son, not being able to— to breast—feed my son, not being able to enjoy motherhood. you have this child, _ able to enjoy motherhood. you have this child, you are so looking forward _ this child, you are so looking forward to this child, and all the way through it isjust forward to this child, and all the way through it is just traumatic. the apology was more of a defence rather _ the apology was more of a defence rather than — the apology was more of a defence rather than we have really messed up here _ rather than we have really messed up here it _ rather than we have really messed up here it was _ rather than we have really messed up here. it was a very, very traumatic experience — here. it was a very, very traumatic experience. to here. it was a very, very traumatic experience-— experience. to say the least. extraordinary. _ experience. to say the least. extraordinary. what - experience. to say the least. extraordinary. what you - experience. to say the least. | extraordinary. what you make experience. to say the least. - extraordinary. what you make of that, hannah? were you listening as well? ., , , ., , well? yeah, it 'ust sounds awful. it is so hard to — well? yeah, itjust sounds awful. it is so hard to hear. _ well? yeah, itjust sounds awful. it is so hard to hear. i _ well? yeah, itjust sounds awful. it is so hard to hear. i don't - well? yeah, itjust sounds awful. it is so hard to hear. i don't really - is so hard to hear. i don't really know what to say, it's an awful

experience to go through. i'm really sorry that happened to you.- experience to go through. i'm really sorry that happened to you. yeah, it was awful- — sorry that happened to you. yeah, it was awful. then _ sorry that happened to you. yeah, it was awful. then i _ sorry that happened to you. yeah, it was awful. then i had _ sorry that happened to you. yeah, it was awful. then i had counselling i was awful. then i had counselling after~ _ was awful. then i had counselling after i_ was awful. then i had counselling after. i never had any kids after because — after. i never had any kids after because i— after. i never had any kids after because i don't know whether that was the _ because i don't know whether that was the main reason but it definitely made me think, would i be listened _ definitely made me think, would i be listened to— definitely made me think, would i be listened to again? i don't understand why when a woman says she is pain, _ understand why when a woman says she is pain, she _ understand why when a woman says she is pain, she is— understand why when a woman says she is pain, she is ignored. i don't get it, i is pain, she is ignored. i don't get it, i really— is pain, she is ignored. i don't get it, i really don't get it. i'm in pain — it, i really don't get it. i'm in pain no, _ it, i really don't get it. i'm in pain. no, you're not. but it's my body— pain. no, you're not. but it's my body so — pain. no, you're not. but it's my body so i — pain. no, you're not. but it's my body so i know i'm in pain. that seems — body so i know i'm in pain. that seems to— body so i know i'm in pain. that seems to be _ body so i know i'm in pain. that seems to be the common thread for all these _ seems to be the common thread for all these conversations that these women _ all these conversations that these women are talking about the same thing _ women are talking about the same thing i'm — women are talking about the same thing. i'm saying this but you are ignoring — thing. i'm saying this but you are ignoring me. why are you ignoring me? _ ignoring me. why are you ignoring me? ., ~' ., �*, ., ignoring me. why are you ignoring me? ., 4, ., �*, ., ., me? yeah i think that's one of the hardest things, _ me? yeah i think that's one of the hardest things, feeling _ me? yeah i think that's one of the hardest things, feeling like - me? yeah i think that's one of the hardest things, feeling like you i me? yeah i think that's one of the | hardest things, feeling like you are not being listened to and no matter what you say it's not registering.

eugenie, hi, sorry to keep you. trio eugenie, hi, sorry to keep you. no worries. it's a fascinating conversation. _ worries. it's a fascinating conversation. it- worries. it's a fascinating conversation. it is- worries. it's a fascinatingl conversation. it is difficult worries. it's a fascinating - conversation. it is difficult to hear — conversation. it is difficult to hear i— conversation. it is difficult to hear ithink— conversation. it is difficult to hear. i think everyone - conversation. it is difficult to hear. i think everyone has i conversation. it is difficult to i hear. i think everyone has these experiences _ hear. i think everyone has these experiences which _ hear. i think everyone has these experiences which are _ hear. i think everyone has these experiences which are very i hear. i think everyone has these i experiences which are very difficult and i'm _ experiences which are very difficult and i'm trying— experiences which are very difficult and i'm trying to— experiences which are very difficult and i'm trying to look— experiences which are very difficult and i'm trying to look at _ experiences which are very difficult and i'm trying to look at it- experiences which are very difficult and i'm trying to look at it from i experiences which are very difficult and i'm trying to look at it from a l and i'm trying to look at it from a sort of— and i'm trying to look at it from a sort of more _ and i'm trying to look at it from a sort of more general— and i'm trying to look at it from a sort of more general point - and i'm trying to look at it from a sort of more general point of- and i'm trying to look at it from a i sort of more general point of view. a lot _ sort of more general point of view. a lot of— sort of more general point of view. a lot of it— sort of more general point of view. a lot of it comes _ sort of more general point of view. a lot of it comes down, _ sort of more general point of view. a lot of it comes down, often i sort of more general point of view. a lot of it comes down, often it i sort of more general point of view. a lot of it comes down, often it is. a lot of it comes down, often it is your— a lot of it comes down, often it is your first — a lot of it comes down, often it is your first experience _ a lot of it comes down, often it is your first experience of— a lot of it comes down, often it is your first experience of a - a lot of it comes down, often it is your first experience of a birth i a lot of it comes down, often it isl your first experience of a birth and your first experience of a birth and you don't— your first experience of a birth and you don't really— your first experience of a birth and you don't really know _ your first experience of a birth and you don't really know what - your first experience of a birth and you don't really know what you i your first experience of a birth and j you don't really know what you are getting _ you don't really know what you are getting into — you don't really know what you are getting into and _ you don't really know what you are getting into. and you _ you don't really know what you are getting into. and you have - you don't really know what you are getting into. and you have no i you don't really know what you are getting into. and you have no sayl you don't really know what you are i getting into. and you have no say in it. getting into. and you have no say in it you _ getting into. and you have no say in it you are _ getting into. and you have no say in it you are not— getting into. and you have no say in it. you are not part _ getting into. and you have no say in it. you are not part of— getting into. and you have no say in it. you are not part of the _ it. you are not part of the decision—making. - it. you are not part of the decision-making.- it. you are not part of the decision-making. it. you are not part of the decision-makinu. ., , . ., ., decision-making. that such a common threat this conversation, _ decision-making. that such a common threat this conversation, you - decision-making. that such a common threat this conversation, you are i threat this conversation, you are kind of a part, you are not part of it. ., �* , , ~ it. that's right, so it feels like ou are it. that's right, so it feels like you are a _ it. that's right, so it feels like you are a passive _ it. that's right, so it feels like you are a passive vessel, i it. that's right, so it feels like you are a passive vessel, but| it. that's right, so it feels like i you are a passive vessel, but not in any way— you are a passive vessel, but not in any way sort — you are a passive vessel, but not in any way sort of _ you are a passive vessel, but not in any way sort of listened _ you are a passive vessel, but not in any way sort of listened to, - you are a passive vessel, but not in any way sort of listened to, or i you are a passive vessel, but not in any way sort of listened to, or at i any way sort of listened to, or at least _ any way sort of listened to, or at least considered _ any way sort of listened to, or at least considered in _ any way sort of listened to, or at least considered in what - any way sort of listened to, or at least considered in what is - least considered in what is happening _ least considered in what is happening and _ least considered in what is happening. and i-

least considered in what is happening. and i find i least considered in what is happening. and i find that| happening. and i find that difficult _ happening. and i find that difficult. and _ happening. and i find that difficult. and because i happening. and i find that difficult. and because youj happening. and i find that- difficult. and because you don't know. _ difficult. and because you don't know. if— difficult. and because you don't know. if it's _ difficult. and because you don't know, if it's your— difficult. and because you don't know, if it's your first _ difficult. and because you don't know, if it's your first birth, i difficult. and because you don'tj know, if it's your first birth, you don't _ know, if it's your first birth, you don't know— know, if it's your first birth, you don't know what _ know, if it's your first birth, you don't know what you _ know, if it's your first birth, you don't know what you are - know, if it's your first birth, you don't know what you are going i don't know what you are going through— don't know what you are going through and _ don't know what you are going through and it's _ don't know what you are going through and it's difficult - don't know what you are going through and it's difficult to i don't know what you are going through and it's difficult to bel through and it's difficult to be adamant _ through and it's difficult to be adamant about— through and it's difficult to be adamant about what - through and it's difficult to be adamant about what you i through and it's difficult to bel adamant about what you want. through and it's difficult to be i adamant about what you want. so through and it's difficult to be - adamant about what you want. so that doesn't _ adamant about what you want. so that doesn't help — adamant about what you want. so that doesn't help so — adamant about what you want. so that doesn't help so it— adamant about what you want. so that doesn't help. so it is— adamant about what you want. so that doesn't help. so it is a _ adamant about what you want. so that doesn't help. so it is a tricky— adamant about what you want. so that doesn't help. so it is a tricky one. i doesn't help. so it is a tricky one. you know. — doesn't help. so it is a tricky one. you know. in— doesn't help. so it is a tricky one. you know. in my— doesn't help. so it is a tricky one. you know, in my experience i- doesn't help. so it is a tricky one. you know, in my experience i feltj you know, in my experience i felt like, _ you know, in my experience i felt like. i_ you know, in my experience i felt like. i have — you know, in my experience i felt like, i have three _ you know, in my experience i felt like, i have three sons, _ you know, in my experience i felt like, i have three sons, two - you know, in my experience i felt like, i have three sons, two of. you know, in my experience i felt. like, i have three sons, two of them were _ like, i have three sons, two of them were born _ like, i have three sons, two of them were born in — like, i have three sons, two of them were born in london _ like, i have three sons, two of them were born in london and _ like, i have three sons, two of them were born in london and my- like, i have three sons, two of them i were born in london and my youngest was born— were born in london and my youngest was born in_ were born in london and my youngest was born in france _ were born in london and my youngest was born in france. my— were born in london and my youngest was born in france. my first— were born in london and my youngest was born in france. my first son, i was born in france. my first son, the birth— was born in france. my first son, the birth itself— was born in france. my first son, the birth itself was _ was born in france. my first son, the birth itself was quite - was born in france. my first son, i the birth itself was quite traumatic in that— the birth itself was quite traumatic in that i_ the birth itself was quite traumatic in that i had — the birth itself was quite traumatic in that i had had _ the birth itself was quite traumatic in that i had had a _ the birth itself was quite traumatic in that i had had a no— the birth itself was quite traumatic in that i had had a no risk- in that i had had a no risk pregnancy— in that i had had a no risk pregnancy and _ in that i had had a no risk pregnancy and just- in that i had had a no risk pregnancy and just follow in that i had had a no risk- pregnancy and just follow the sort of general, — pregnancy and just follow the sort of general, you _ pregnancy and just follow the sort of general, you see _ pregnancy and just follow the sort of general, you see your- pregnancy and just follow the sort of general, you see your midwifel pregnancy and just follow the sorti of general, you see your midwife a few times — of general, you see your midwife a few times and _ of general, you see your midwife a few times. and so _ of general, you see your midwife a few times. and so i _ of general, you see your midwife a few times. and so i was _ of general, you see your midwife a few times. and so i was advised i of general, you see your midwife a few times. and so i was advised to id few times. and so i was advised to go to— few times. and so i was advised to go to the _ few times. and so i was advised to go to the birthing _ few times. and so i was advised to go to the birthing centre. - few times. and so i was advised to go to the birthing centre. and i few times. and so i was advised tol go to the birthing centre. and when i go to the birthing centre. and when iarrived, _ go to the birthing centre. and when iarrived, again. _ go to the birthing centre. and when i arrived, again, they— go to the birthing centre. and when i arrived, again, they wouldn't i i arrived, again, they wouldn't really— i arrived, again, they wouldn't really listen _ i arrived, again, they wouldn't really listen to— i arrived, again, they wouldn't really listen to what _ i arrived, again, they wouldn't really listen to what was - i arrived, again, they wouldn't i really listen to what was happening so they _

really listen to what was happening so they sent — really listen to what was happening so they sent me _ really listen to what was happening so they sent me home. _ really listen to what was happening so they sent me home. so - really listen to what was happening so they sent me home. so i- really listen to what was happening so they sent me home. so i went l so they sent me home. so i went home _ so they sent me home. so i went home and — so they sent me home. so i went home. and again, _ so they sent me home. so i went home. and again, a _ so they sent me home. so i went home. and again, a few- so they sent me home. so i went home. and again, a few hours. so they sent me home. so i went i home. and again, a few hours later, iwent— home. and again, a few hours later, i went back— home. and again, a few hours later, i went back and _ home. and again, a few hours later, i went back and they— home. and again, a few hours later, i went back and they were _ home. and again, a few hours later, i went back and they were about i home. and again, a few hours later, i went back and they were about to i i went back and they were about to send _ i went back and they were about to send me _ i went back and they were about to send me back— i went back and they were about to send me back and _ i went back and they were about to send me back and i— i went back and they were about to send me back and i sort _ i went back and they were about to send me back and i sort of- i went back and they were about to send me back and i sort of threw. i went back and they were about to i send me back and i sort of threw up. so they— send me back and i sort of threw up. so they kept— send me back and i sort of threw up. so they kept me _ send me back and i sort of threw up. so they kept me. but— send me back and i sort of threw up. so they kept me. but i— send me back and i sort of threw up. so they kept me. but i felt— send me back and i sort of threw up. so they kept me. but i felt like - so they kept me. but i felt like that save — so they kept me. but i felt like that save me, _ so they kept me. but i felt like that save me, even— so they kept me. but i felt like that save me, even though i so they kept me. but i felt like that save me, even though it. so they kept me. but i felt like - that save me, even though it wasn't on purpose — that save me, even though it wasn't on purpose. and _ that save me, even though it wasn't on purpose. and then— that save me, even though it wasn't on purpose. and then stayed - that save me, even though it wasn't on purpose. and then stayed on- that save me, even though it wasn't on purpose. and then stayed on thei on purpose. and then stayed on the birthing _ on purpose. and then stayed on the birthing award — on purpose. and then stayed on the birthing award for— on purpose. and then stayed on the birthing award for may— on purpose. and then stayed on the birthing award for may be _ on purpose. and then stayed on the birthing award for may be up- on purpose. and then stayed on the birthing award for may be up to - on purpose. and then stayed on the birthing award for may be up to 30 i birthing award for may be up to 30 hours _ birthing award for may be up to 30 hours. because _ birthing award for may be up to 30 hours. because there _ birthing award for may be up to 30 hours. because there was - birthing award for may be up to 30 hours. because there was no, - birthing award for may be up to 30 hours. because there was no, so. birthing award for may be up to 30 . hours. because there was no, so this was a _ hours. because there was no, so this was a question— hours. because there was no, so this was a question of— hours. because there was no, so this was a question of space _ hours. because there was no, so this was a question of space onto - hours. because there was no, so this was a question of space onto the - was a question of space onto the labour— was a question of space onto the labour ward~ _ was a question of space onto the labourward. notice, _ was a question of space onto the labourward. notice, so- was a question of space onto the labourward. notice, sojust- was a question of space onto the i labourward. notice, sojust waiting around _ labourward. notice, sojust waiting around with— labourward. notice, sojust waiting around with no— labourward. notice, sojust waiting around with no pain _ labourward. notice, sojust waiting around with no pain relief— labourward. notice, sojust waiting around with no pain relief other- around with no pain relief other than _ around with no pain relief other than gas — around with no pain relief other than gas and _ around with no pain relief other than gas and air. _ around with no pain relief other than gas and air. and _ around with no pain relief other than gas and air. and then - around with no pain relief other than gas and air. and then i - than gas and air. and then i remember— than gas and air. and then i rememberjust_ than gas and air. and then i rememberjust being- than gas and air. and then i . rememberjust being wheeled than gas and air. and then i - rememberjust being wheeled naked from one _ rememberjust being wheeled naked from one place. _ rememberjust being wheeled naked from one place. i_ rememberjust being wheeled naked from one place, i couldn't _ rememberjust being wheeled naked from one place, i couldn't quite - from one place, i couldn't quite have _ from one place, icouldn't quite have my— from one place, i couldn't quite have my bearings, _ from one place, i couldn't quite have my bearings, but - from one place, i couldn't quite have my bearings, but from - from one place, i couldn't quite| have my bearings, but from one from one place, i couldn't quite - have my bearings, but from one place in an elevator— have my bearings, but from one place in an elevator to _ have my bearings, but from one place in an elevator to a _ have my bearings, but from one place in an elevator to a different _ have my bearings, but from one place in an elevator to a different place - in an elevator to a different place finatty _ in an elevator to a different place finally to — in an elevator to a different place finally to get _ in an elevator to a different place finally to get into _ in an elevator to a different place finally to get into the _ in an elevator to a different place finally to get into the labour- in an elevator to a different placei finally to get into the labour ward, by which _ finally to get into the labour ward, by which point _ finally to get into the labour ward, by which point it— finally to get into the labour ward, by which point it was _ finally to get into the labour ward, by which point it was too - finally to get into the labour ward, by which point it was too late - finally to get into the labour ward, by which point it was too late to i by which point it was too late to have _ by which point it was too late to have an — by which point it was too late to have an epidural. _ by which point it was too late to have an epidural. so _ by which point it was too late to have an epidural. so they- by which point it was too late to have an epidural. so they had . by which point it was too late to| have an epidural. so they had to by which point it was too late to - have an epidural. so they had to do

and —— to then get my son out. he wasn't breathing — —— to then get my son out. he wasn't breathing and _ —— to then get my son out. he wasn't breathing and he — —— to then get my son out. he wasn't breathing and he had _ —— to then get my son out. he wasn't breathing and he had to— —— to then get my son out. he wasn't breathing and he had to be _ breathing and he had to be resuscitated _ breathing and he had to be resuscitated and _ breathing and he had to be resuscitated and whisked l breathing and he had to be - resuscitated and whisked away to a neonatal _ resuscitated and whisked away to a neonatal unit — resuscitated and whisked away to a neonatal unit while _ resuscitated and whisked away to a neonatal unit while we _ resuscitated and whisked away to a neonatal unit while we laid - resuscitated and whisked away to a neonatal unit while we laid there i neonatal unit while we laid there thinking — neonatal unit while we laid there thinking i— neonatal unit while we laid there thinking i don't _ neonatal unit while we laid there thinking i don't know— neonatal unit while we laid there thinking i don't know what's- neonatal unit while we laid there i thinking i don't know what's going on here _ thinking i don't know what's going on here and _ thinking i don't know what's going on here. and you _ thinking i don't know what's going on here. and you know, _ thinking i don't know what's going on here. and you know, the - thinking i don't know what's going on here. and you know, the thing| thinking i don't know what's going i on here. and you know, the thing is, the army— on here. and you know, the thing is, the army of— on here. and you know, the thing is, the army of doctors _ on here. and you know, the thing is, the army of doctors that _ on here. and you know, the thing is, the army of doctors that eventually i the army of doctors that eventually -et the army of doctors that eventually get in _ the army of doctors that eventually get in the _ the army of doctors that eventually get in the room _ the army of doctors that eventually get in the room were _ the army of doctors that eventually get in the room were incredible - the army of doctors that eventually| get in the room were incredible and wonderfully — get in the room were incredible and wonderfully professional. _ get in the room were incredible and wonderfully professional. so - get in the room were incredible and wonderfully professional. so in - wonderfully professional. so in terms — wonderfully professional. so in terms of— wonderfully professional. so in terms of people _ wonderfully professional. so in terms of people it _ wonderfully professional. so in terms of people it was - wonderfully professional. so in terms of people it was a - wonderfully professional. so in terms of people it was a good i terms of people it was a good exoerience _ terms of people it was a good experience but— terms of people it was a good experience but it's _ terms of people it was a good experience but it's a - terms of people it was a good experience but it's a very- terms of people it was a good - experience but it's a very reactive process — experience but it's a very reactive process so — experience but it's a very reactive process. so you _ experience but it's a very reactive process. so you know, _ experience but it's a very reactive process. so you know, there - experience but it's a very reactive process. so you know, there is. experience but it's a very reactive| process. so you know, there is no discussion— process. so you know, there is no discussion as _ process. so you know, there is no discussion as to _ process. so you know, there is no discussion as to what's _ process. so you know, there is noi discussion as to what's happening. and when— discussion as to what's happening. and when it — discussion as to what's happening. and when it gets— discussion as to what's happening. and when it gets to _ discussion as to what's happening. and when it gets to the _ discussion as to what's happening. and when it gets to the worst - discussion as to what's happening. and when it gets to the worst part| and when it gets to the worst part you do— and when it gets to the worst part you do have — and when it gets to the worst part you do have a _ and when it gets to the worst part you do have a wonderful— and when it gets to the worst part you do have a wonderful team - and when it gets to the worst part you do have a wonderful team of. you do have a wonderful team of people _ you do have a wonderful team of people who _ you do have a wonderful team of people who are _ you do have a wonderful team of people who are there. _ you do have a wonderful team of people who are there. but - you do have a wonderful team of people who are there. but it's i you do have a wonderful team of. people who are there. but it's very reactive _ people who are there. but it's very reactive it— people who are there. but it's very reactive. it happens— people who are there. but it's very reactive. it happens because - people who are there. but it's very reactive. it happens because you l people who are there. but it's very. reactive. it happens because you are in desperate — reactive. it happens because you are in desperate straits. _ reactive. it happens because you are in desperate straits. so _

reactive. it happens because you are in desperate straits. so that's - reactive. it happens because you are in desperate straits. so that's the i in desperate straits. so that's the difficulty. — in desperate straits. so that's the difficulty. i— in desperate straits. so that's the difficulty, i think. _ in desperate straits. so that's the difficulty, ithink.— in desperate straits. so that's the difficulty, i think.— difficulty, i think. that's the really key — difficulty, i think. that's the really key analysis, - difficulty, i think. that's the | really key analysis, eugenie. difficulty, i think. that's the - really key analysis, eugenie. thank you so much. and likewise, thank you to amanda and hannah, amazing calls. seema in croydon, good morning. are you there? i can't hear you, seema. we might have a fader problem. hello. hello there. is we might have a fader problem. hello. hello there.— we might have a fader problem. hello. hello there. is that seema? yes it is, hello. hello there. is that seema? yes it is. hi- _ hello. hello there. is that seema? yes it is, hi. i'll— hello. hello there. is that seema? yes it is, hi. i'll be— hello. hello there. is that seema? yes it is, hi. i'll be right _ hello. hello there. is that seema? yes it is, hi. i'll be right with - yes it is, hi. i'll be right with ou, yes it is, hi. i'll be right with you. torie- _ yes it is, hi. i'll be right with you, torie. such _ yes it is, hi. i'll be right with you, torie. such an - yes it is, hi. i'll be right withl you, torie. such an important contrition coming up. likewise yours, seema. where you listened to? yes. ~ , ., . yours, seema. where you listened to? yes. ~ . . yours, seema. where you listened to? yes. . . yes. when you are having your baby, where ou yes. when you are having your baby, where you listened _ yes. when you are having your baby, where you listened to _ yes. when you are having your baby, where you listened to by _ yes. when you are having your baby, where you listened to by people? - yes. when you are having your baby, | where you listened to by people? no, i wasn't, where you listened to by people? idrr, i wasn't, because where you listened to by people? idrr, iwasn't, because i had first where you listened to by people? idrr, i wasn't, because i had first of all tenures prior to becoming i had breast cancer. this was abroad. i

had a mastectomy and a channel where they take your stomach muscle and move it to where they took out the breast which is the full mastectomy. i was told, i turned chemo down because i wanted to have children. fortunately i'm still here and i'm fine. but when i got pregnant i was advised highly by my doctors abroad and also where i lived in west london that are not to have normal birth, it has to be a cesarean because i will not to be able to have enough power to push properly. anyway, i moved from west to where i am at now near croydon. the hospital in our area am at now near croydon. the hospital in ourarea said am at now near croydon. the hospital in our area said no, you am at now near croydon. the hospital in ourarea said no, you have am at now near croydon. the hospital in our area said no, you have to do everything at this hospital, the gp told me that, that you are not allowed to go to your old hospital etc, etc. ifound out this was allowed to go to your old hospital etc, etc. i found out this was all false, have a right to choose where

to go with the nhs, which hospital i want to go to, especially hospital i was at previously. and they completely turned that down for me. they said, right, we don't pay for a cesarean, you have to have it the normal way, you have no other choice. if you are going to do a cesarean you have to do it private. so i was left against a wall and a stone. i didn't know what to do. so i went into labour, went into the hospital, the local hospital, not happy. nothing was put in place properly because my original birthing plan was a cesarean. i didn't want to take the drugs, didn't want to take the drugs, didn't want to do anything i was given gas and i was given the injection, and i was given the epidural, still i could not push them i couldn't do anything, i didn't want the forceps. they forced the forceps. they said we have to do it otherwise the baby will not survive. my friend that was filming the birth for me, because that's my memory, i wanted to cherish that, i wanted to see my son come into this

world. while i was screaming and doing everything, i didn't realise it but the lady that was helping, she said you are not allowed to film, its against the law. so she basically lied to my friend. i don't have that memory. after everything was over i was left there with my son for several hours. it’s was over i was left there with my son for several hours.— son for several hours. it's not auainst son for several hours. it's not against the — son for several hours. it's not against the law. _ son for several hours. it's not against the law. it _ son for several hours. it's not against the law. it is - son for several hours. it's not against the law. it is my - son for several hours. it's not against the law. it is my rightj son for several hours. it's not i against the law. it is my right to have it film. _ against the law. it is my right to have it film, actually. _ against the law. it is my right to have it film, actually. it - against the law. it is my right to have it film, actually. it is - against the law. it is my right to have it film, actually. it is my i have it film, actually. it is my right. have it film, actually. it is my riuht. , , �* , right. of course it is, i'm being stuid right. of course it is, i'm being stopid can _ right. of course it is, i'm being stopid can of — right. of course it is, i'm being stupid can of course _ right. of course it is, i'm being stupid can of course it - right. of course it is, i'm being stupid can of course it is. - right. of course it is, i'm being stupid can of course it is. so i right. of course it is, i'm being - stupid can of course it is. so yeah, they denied _ stupid can of course it is. so yeah, they denied me — stupid can of course it is. so yeah, they denied me of _ stupid can of course it is. so yeah, they denied me of that _ stupid can of course it is. so yeah, they denied me of that also. - stupid can of course it is. so yeah, they denied me of that also. so i stupid can of course it is. so yeah, j they denied me of that also. so on top of everything else. my friend tried to leave and she went out and tried to leave and she went out and tried to leave and she went out and tried to get someone because i was there with my newborn for several hours, after the birth nothing was done, i meant bleeding, getting weakerand done, i meant bleeding, getting weaker and theyjust left me there for several hours until someone else came in to clean the room. she said, you are still in here? i said, yes, i've been waiting, they couldn't believe it that they are just left me there and i'm still bleeding, not

sewn up, nothing, i have severe incontinence because of that now, since i was 39 when i gave birth, so i'm basically like a ioo—year—old birth person that can hold their you're in or bowel movements or anything. i've been putting up with this for several years and has been getting worse and other health issues because of it, and i can't tell you the embarrassment when you are in public and you don't have a bathroom around. i've been wearing diapers since i was 39. and it's all because of one thing that by law they were supposed to do a cesarean and they didn't. and also my son, the way he came out, being forced to come out with the forceps when i didn't want to use it and the stress and anxiety i was under while giving birth was beyond belief. my blood pressure had gone up severely, they didn't do anything. i was just left there, just left there. to die. just

there, 'ust left there. to die. just left there, just left there. to die. just left there? _ there, just left there. to die. just left there? yes, _ there, just left there. to die. just left there? yes, just _ there, just left there. to die. just left there? yes, just to _ there, just left there. to die. just left there? yes, just to bleed - there, just left there. to die. just left there? yes, just to bleed and left there? yes, 'ust to bleed and that's it. left there? yes, just to bleed and that's it. fortunately _ left there? yes, just to bleed and that's it. fortunately the - left there? yes, just to bleed and that's it. fortunately the cleaningj that's it. fortunately the cleaning person found me because i couldn't walk and i had a baby in my arms, a newborn. . , walk and i had a baby in my arms, a newborn. . , . ., walk and i had a baby in my arms, a newborn. . , . . , , newborn. 0h, right, as a dad myself, four daughters. _ newborn. 0h, right, as a dad myself, four daughters, we _ newborn. 0h, right, as a dad myself, four daughters, we had _ newborn. 0h, right, as a dad myself, four daughters, we had one - newborn. 0h, right, as a dad myself, | four daughters, we had one traumatic experience, it is kind of triggering and it might be for a lot of people listening but these are extraordinarily bad experiences. they are all so brilliantly described by our viewers and listeners. there is a big response to this. really big response. we knew there would be a significant response. there is a massive response. there is a massive response. so we will carry on discussing this after ten o'clock. thank you for letting me share. listen, our gratitude to you because

what you have said is so honest and so open, and necessarily we have to talk very openly about these things. but the impact it's had on your life. it but the impact it's had on your life. . . but the impact it's had on your life. , , . life. it is still impacting me, it has impacted _ life. it is still impacting me, it has impacted my _ life. it is still impacting me, it has impacted my son - life. it is still impacting me, it has impacted my son even. i life. it is still impacting me, it. has impacted my son even. when life. it is still impacting me, it- has impacted my son even. when he gets into a situation of stress and something that is out of the social norm come out of everyday life, it has affected him because he has panics. it is something that has been with him. i try to stay calm and he's learning. he is learning. but he is 17 now and it's been with him all this time, all this time. it comes out in your teen years. unfortunately that's when it really comes out. unfortunately that's when it really comes out-— comes out. psychologists will talk ve much comes out. psychologists will talk very much about _ comes out. psychologists will talk very much about imprint, - comes out. psychologists will talk very much about imprint, the - comes out. psychologists will talk| very much about imprint, the early hours even which have a lifelong effect. there is lots of

peer—reviewed papers to actually back that up. seema, thank you so much. . .. back that up. seema, thank you so much. . «i i. back that up. seema, thank you so much. . «i . ., ,, much. thank you so much. thank you. mariaret much. thank you so much. thank you. margaret in — much. thank you so much. thank you. margaret in salisbury, _ much. thank you so much. thank you. margaret in salisbury, too. _ much. thank you so much. thank you. margaret in salisbury, too. but - margaret in salisbury, too. but torie, an nhs midwife, listening to this, what think? haifa torie, an nhs midwife, listening to this, what think?— torie, an nhs midwife, listening to this, what think? how there. firstly m heart this, what think? how there. firstly my heart absolutely _ this, what think? how there. firstly my heart absolutely breaks - this, what think? how there. firstly my heart absolutely breaks for - this, what think? how there. firstly my heart absolutely breaks for yourj my heart absolutely breaks for your previous caller and all the other callers. i would love to say that this is an uncommon story but unfortunately it's not and we hear this time and time again. i think the common theme is that women are not listened to. and that is what i have seen as a midwife and what i personally experienced when i was pregnant with my first child. and it has since caused me to actually leave my role as an nhs midwife just because i can't be part of a system thatis because i can't be part of a system that is so complicit in harming women and babies and i have been campaigning to actually try to change the system and change the

harm we are causing.— harm we are causing. interesting. you are a health _ harm we are causing. interesting. you are a health professional- harm we are causing. interesting. you are a health professional but| you are a health professional but also as a mum you have seen it every which way here. is it down to staffing levels? i which way here. is it down to staffing levels?— which way here. is it down to staffing levels? i think staffing levels play _ staffing levels? i think staffing levels play a — staffing levels? i think staffing levels play a really _ staffing levels? i think staffing levels play a really big - staffing levels? i think staffing levels play a really big part. i staffing levels? i think staffing - levels play a really big part. there simply isn't enough staff to properly care for women, families and babies and children. but also there is a really toxic culture within the workplace particularly in midwifery and obstetrics, and that is causing, amongst many other reasons, a lot of midwives to actually leave the profession. so we can't recruit fast enough then we are losing. and actually a lot of the midwives that are working in at the midwives that are working in at the moment are veryjunior so they have a real lack of experience. skill levels on the ward are not sufficient for safe care and women are being left traumatised after having their baby. and staffing

definitely comes into it.- having their baby. and staffing definitely comes into it. yeah. as ou sa , definitely comes into it. yeah. as you say. why _ definitely comes into it. yeah. as you say. why this _ definitely comes into it. yeah. as you say, why this attitude - definitely comes into it. yeah. as| you say, why this attitude towards women, women not being listened to? i'm thinking out loud. you get misogyny in all walks of life and women being relegated in that sense obviously still. it is a massive problem, albeit an unconscious bias, it is still there. my perception would be it is mainly women in that situation working in those services. so why? situation working in those services. so wh ? ~ , ,., , , situation working in those services. so why? absolutely, it is a heavily female dominated _ so why? absolutely, it is a heavily female dominated profession. - so why? absolutely, it is a heavily| female dominated profession. and actually misogyny... you female dominated profession. and actually misogyny. . ._ female dominated profession. and actually misogyny... you would think there would — actually misogyny... you would think there would be _ actually misogyny... you would think there would be more _ actually misogyny. .. you would think there would be more natural- actually misogyny... you would think. there would be more natural empathy? potentially. and firstly i would say there is a lot of internalised misogyny in culture and society anyway. secondly, what i would say is, even if you come in as a bright—eyed, fluffy tailed brand—new midwife who is really pro women's

white democrats and women's sense of care, the toxic workplace and bullying culture will knock that out of you very quickly. and you might find that you will be advocating for a person's writes, really listening, and a sense of care but it is a system that needs to run in a timely manner and also be cost effective and it is not cost effective to allow birth to take its natural course, to maybe take some hours for things to happen, to allow it all to happen physiologically and naturally. quite often we are rushing things along and we might have somebody in labour coping really well, it is all too slow, let's give her some drugs, a hormone trip to speed it up because we need the bed. and ultimately it does have to be cost—effective, it does have to be cost—effective, it does have to run as a business, it has to run as a system. the woman's sense of care has been lost to the obstetric model which is very much rooted in

misogyny. 50 model which is very much rooted in misoa n . , ., ., misogyny. so interesting. so how do we reverse this _ misogyny. so interesting. so how do we reverse this situation? _ misogyny. so interesting. so how do we reverse this situation? i - misogyny. so interesting. so how do we reverse this situation? i think- we reverse this situation? i think we reverse this situation? i think we need a _ we reverse this situation? i think we need a whole _ we reverse this situation? i think we need a whole other— we reverse this situation? i think we need a whole other show- we reverse this situation? i think we need a whole other show to l we reverse this situation? i think- we need a whole other show to unpack that. trite we need a whole other show to unpack that. ~ . ., ., we need a whole other show to unpack that. ~ _, ., | we need a whole other show to unpack that-_ i think _ we need a whole other show to unpack that._ i think in - we need a whole other show to unpack that._ i think in the - that. we could do it. i think in the first instance, _ that. we could do it. i think in the first instance, how— that. we could do it. i think in the first instance, how we _ that. we could do it. i think in the first instance, how we could - that. we could do it. i think in the first instance, how we could try i that. we could do it. i think in the first instance, how we could try to remedy it would be to potentially bring in a subsidised or even com pletely completely funded because at one time we were advocating for them and taking the time for them and the doula job role, we can't fit that in, everything is very anti spending time with that woman, we are constantly covering our backs, it's very much a risk averse practice. and so a doula service would be a fantastic thing to implement because it would allow a doula, a

non—medically trained birthing partner and advocate to spend time with that woman so the midwife could get on with doing the more medical things that unfortunately the job role requires. something like that would be really handy.— would be really handy. that's a really interesting _ would be really handy. that's a really interesting thought. i i would be really handy. that's a l really interesting thought. i work with a grouo _ really interesting thought. i work with a group called _ really interesting thought. i work with a group called march - really interesting thought. i work with a group called march with . with a group called march with midwives manchester and it's something we are campaigning for at the moment and we have put it to andy burnham and we are trying to get a doula service integrated into greater manchester particularly in the north—west where many women are struggling to get the right care, here and everywhere, as your callers have kindly described. ibtnd here and everywhere, as your callers have kindly described.— have kindly described. and very powerfully _ have kindly described. and very powerfully described. _ have kindly described. and very powerfully described. thank i have kindly described. and very| powerfully described. thank you have kindly described. and very i powerfully described. thank you very much indeed. massive response to this. we are going to carry this on on the radio. meanwhile, our viewers on the radio. meanwhile, our viewers on bbc news leave us. thank you so

much to you for watching. live from london, this is bbc news.

the us secretary of state warns israel an all—out attack on rafah will provoke anarchy without eliminating hamas. russia's defence minister sergei shoigu is out — as vladimir putin replaces him in a rare cabinet shake—up. new evidence the british government was warned by its own staff about the risk of hiv from contaminated blood in the early �*805. and the man for an overhaul of maternity care as mp say urgent action is needed to reduce the trauma experienced by many women during childbirth. —— demand for an overhaul. —— demand for an overhaul. hello. i'm lauren taylor. america's top diplomat is warning that an all—out israeli attack on the city of rafah in southern gaza would provoke "anarchy" — without eliminating hamas. it's antony blinken's latest attempt to deter israel from carrying out a ground assault.

an israeli bombardment in the eastern parts of rafah has