each of these carers is being forced to pay back, in some cases, up to £20,000 to the government, because they say the department for work and pensions has overpaid them the carer�*s allowance. tonight, how's it happened, and what impact is it having on them? the carers with us tonight are from right across the country. we're also going to hear live from the leader of the liberal democrats, sir ed davey, who's a carer himself for his teenage son, and was, as a boy, looking after his mum who had cancer. he's called for the "debts" carers

owe to be written off. we'll hear from dan white from disability rights uk and the chair of the work and pensions committee, labour mp sir stephen timms, plus ian mansfield from the centre right think tank policy exchange. good evening. five years ago, ministers promised to address the problem of overpayments through new technology, so why are so many carers still falling foul of the rules? there are over 5 million unpaid carers in england and wales. you may be one yourself. they provide care for a friend or family member with an illness, disability, a mental health problem or an addiction, and they're entitled to claim carer�*s allowance of £81.90 a week. you can do paid work and still claim it, but there is an earnings limit,

and if you breach that limit even by one penny, you'll lose the entire payment. now some unpaid carers are being asked to pay back money in overpayments after they say they accidentally breached that earnings limit. and newsnight has discovered that, in some cases, it's nothing to do with earnings — it's actually about carer�*s allowance clashing with other benefits. the prime minister, rishi sunak, was recently asked about this by the guardian, who've done a lot of reporting on this issue in recent weeks. there has been a long—standing principle in the way the carer�*s allowance works which is not means tested but subject to an earnings threshold that people are asked to declare their earnings at the time of their making those claims and those are later verified put it without getting into the details of individual claims, that has been a long—standing practice where people have to declare their earnings which i later checked down the line by dwp and if there is a discrepancy that impact their entitlement, obviously they will seek to recover that and

do that in a sensible and fair way to make sure there is a repayment plan in place if people have not declared their earnings accurately in the first place. if you are an unpaid carer and are being asked to pay back money, let us know. send us a whatsapp on 07977 701980. let's introduce our carers. diane marchand's in glasgow. she cares for her 26—year—old autistic son fraser. she was told by the dwp she owes £20,000, and is paying back £10 a month. the national audit office has estimated that a £20,000 debt would take 3a years to repay. nessie king is in norfolk. she cares for her adult son jamie who has autism, severe physical disabilities, and a condition which means he can't walk. nessie herself is visually impaired. she says she was told she was fraudulently claiming carer�*s allowance and owes the dwp £11,000. amanda hunterfrom cambridgeshire was looking after her mum

and receiving carer�*s allowance which was offset against her universal credit and her mum's pension credit. that resulted in them being £300 a month worse off, so unsurprisingly amanda asked dwp to stop paying carer�*s allowance, but the dwp didn't and now amanda has to repay £1,240. conor and rae thackray from cheshire are here. conor cares for his wife rae, who's been diagnosed with borderline personality disorder and chronic fatigue syndrome. he was told he needed to pay back just under £400 and has done that. elizabeth tait from surrey has been a carer for over 20 years, first for her husband, david, who died in 2018. now she looks after he 20—year—old son 0liver, who has down�*s syndrome and complex needs. elizabeth was told she owed £1,623, which she has repaid. and i want to say first of all,

welcome to all of you and thank you so much because i'm totally aware of the overwhelming caring responsibilities you all have served to give us the time and space this evening is very much appreciated. thank you. i will ask you all the same question to start and if i can begin with you in glasgow, diane, when you first found out you owed £20,000, what was your initial reaction and what impact did it have on you? i reaction and what impact did it have on ou? , w w reaction and what impact did it have on ou? , ., ., ., on you? i “ust thought, how am i ever on you? i just thought, how am i ever going _ on you? i just thought, how am i ever going to _ on you? i just thought, how am i ever going to pay _ on you? i just thought, how am i ever going to pay back _ on you? i just thought, how am i ever going to pay back that - ever going to pay back that much money? i work part—time and i have only ever worked part—time so i could look after my son so it was a shock to say the least. find could look after my son so it was a shock to say the least.— could look after my son so it was a shock to say the least. and did you wonder how _ shock to say the least. and did you wonder how they _ shock to say the least. and did you wonder how they had _ shock to say the least. and did you wonder how they had reached - shock to say the least. and did you wonder how they had reached this | wonder how they had reached this figure? wonder how they had reached this fiuure? , _, �* wonder how they had reached this fiuure? , �* ., figure? yes, i couldn't figure out, the only thing _ figure? yes, i couldn't figure out, the only thing was _ figure? yes, i couldn't figure out, the only thing was i _ figure? yes, i couldn't figure out, the only thing was i worked - figure? yes, i couldn't figure out, the only thing was i worked for. figure? yes, i couldn't figure out, | the only thing was i worked for the council part—time but what had happened was now and again they would say they were backdating money that was owed and obviously because i had not told carers that i had

received the money at different times, they said that the effect of the money i was getting and obviously when they looked back, they don't tell you what you are over but they did say to me that when they had looked, it was over £20,000. ., ., 4' when they had looked, it was over £20,000. ., ., ~ ., £20,000. you worked part-time as a dinner lady so — £20,000. you worked part-time as a dinner lady so when _ £20,000. you worked part-time as a dinner lady so when you _ £20,000. you worked part-time as a dinner lady so when you went - £20,000. you worked part-time as a dinner lady so when you went over i dinner lady so when you went over the threshold, it must have been going on for years, the overpayments were stacking up? find going on for years, the overpayments were stacking up?— going on for years, the overpayments were stacking up? and i never knew a thin about were stacking up? and i never knew a thing about it- — were stacking up? and i never knew a thing about it. until— were stacking up? and i never knew a thing about it. until i _ were stacking up? and i never knew a thing about it. until i got _ thing about it. until i got the phone call, that was it. nessie, when and _ phone call, that was it. nessie, when and how— phone call, that was it. nessie, when and how did _ phone call, that was it. nessie, when and how did you - phone call, that was it. nessie, when and how did you react - phone call, that was it. nessie, j when and how did you react you phone call, that was it. nessie, - when and how did you react you owed money? i when and how did you react you owed mone ? ., , , when and how did you react you owed mone? i, ,, money? i was very surprised because money? i was very surprised because my overpayment _ money? i was very surprised because my overpayment came _ money? i was very surprised because my overpayment came not _ money? i was very surprised because my overpayment came not because l money? i was very surprised because my overpayment came not because i | my overpayment came not because i was working but because i was applying — was working but because i was applying for disability benefits for my own disability. unfortunately at the time, _ my own disability. unfortunately at the time, the dwp said there was no mechanism _ the time, the dwp said there was no mechanism to enable me with support

to fill in— mechanism to enable me with support to fill in the _ mechanism to enable me with support to fill in the forms. and because i live in_ to fill in the forms. and because i live in a _ to fill in the forms. and because i live in a very— to fill in the forms. and because i live in a very rural part of norfolk, _ live in a very rural part of norfolk, there was not any support i was able _ norfolk, there was not any support i was able to— norfolk, there was not any support i was able to access sol norfolk, there was not any support i was able to access so i went over the allotted time limits for filling in the _ the allotted time limits for filling in the forms and they said, that's it, eventually they said you have -ot it, eventually they said you have got to _ it, eventually they said you have got to repay four years a benefits punter _ got to repay four years a benefits punter and how did you react? very, very... i basically lost my income — very, very... i basically lost my income for— very, very... i basically lost my income for three years. they made me pay back— income for three years. they made me pay back £11.55 a week and i don't understand — pay back £11.55 a week and i don't understand why because my disability benefit, _ understand why because my disability benefit, when i was able to get support, — benefit, when i was able to get support, was reinstated. and i was still caring — support, was reinstated. and i was still caring. people don't really understand that disability benefit is not _ understand that disability benefit is notjust predicated on the hours of care _ is notjust predicated on the hours of care you — is notjust predicated on the hours of care you provide but also on the

level— of care you provide but also on the level of— of care you provide but also on the level of disability that the person you are _ level of disability that the person you are caring for actually receives _ you are caring for actually receives. so if they don't get a set levei— receives. so if they don't get a set level of— receives. so if they don't get a set level of benefit, you are not entitled _ level of benefit, you are not entitled to even claim carer's allowance. and all of those benchmarks were unchanged. i didn't understand _ benchmarks were unchanged. i didn't understand why this overpayment was levied _ understand why this overpayment was levied against me.— levied against me. thank you for the moment. conor— levied against me. thank you for the moment. conor and _ levied against me. thank you for the moment. conor and rae, _ levied against me. thank you for the moment. conor and rae, thank- levied against me. thank you for the moment. conor and rae, thank you | levied against me. thank you for the i moment. conor and rae, thank you for making the effort to come in from where you live in cheshire. you were told you owed just under £400 so what impact did that have on you? it what impact did that have on you? it came as a real blow i felt targeted, like i had done something wrong. because i wasjust like i had done something wrong. because i was just so confused. it turned out to be the same case as the other two, because of a backdated payment, they had worked out how much i was owed based on the time between my claim and the award but without detailing that this

counted as something that would take me over an earnings threshold. so they then come the letter landed on my door and the worst thoughts go through your head, they demanded it to be paid back in larger sums than we could initially afford and all the worst things going in your head, what if we can't do this, there are threats of prosecution written on the letter. it is all very intimidating. it the letter. it is all very intimidating.— the letter. it is all very intimidating. the letter. it is all very intimidatina. , , ., intimidating. it was 'ust before christmas as h intimidating. it was 'ust before christmas as well, _ intimidating. it wasjust before christmas as well, we - intimidating. it wasjust before christmas as well, we have - intimidating. it was just before i christmas as well, we have three children— christmas as well, we have three children and it comes to that time of year— children and it comes to that time of year and — children and it comes to that time of year and adds another layer of stress _ of year and adds another layer of stress. especially the amount they wanted _ stress. especially the amount they wanted from us at first, which we had to— wanted from us at first, which we had to chop — wanted from us at first, which we had to chop down ourselves... they wanted too — had to chop down ourselves... they wanted too much _ had to chop down ourselves... they wanted too much per _ had to chop down ourselves... tie: wanted too much per month to had to chop down ourselves... tteg wanted too much per month to pay back? ' :: :: , ., ., back? over £100 per month to get it cleared within _ back? over £100 per month to get it cleared within three _ back? over £100 per month to get it cleared within three or _ back? over £100 per month to get it cleared within three or four- back? over £100 per month to get it cleared within three or four months. cleared within three or four months and we _ cleared within three or four months and we thought that's not possible, how can _ and we thought that's not possible, how can we — and we thought that's not possible, how can we do that? so we had to basicaiiy— how can we do that? so we had to basically begged them and say, can we do _ basically begged them and say, can we do £10? we've onlyjust paid it

off. we do £10? we've only 'ust paid it off. ., , ., ., i off. elizabeth, what about you? i had an overpayment _ off. elizabeth, what about you? i had an overpayment of _ off. elizabeth, what about you? i had an overpayment of £1623 - off. elizabeth, what about you? i. had an overpayment of £1623 which came as a huge shock and was very upsetting. at the time i was caring for my husband who was unwell and for my husband who was unwell and for a disabled child and i also have another child. i had taken on a bit more extra work because financially we were struggling. i thought, i worked out my finances as i thought was correct but unfortunately i had made a few errors, i was not in the right frame of mind to work these out, and itjust caused me a great deal of upset. i have paid back every penny. i don't want to claim benefits are not entitled to but the carer�*s allowance, it's almost like a trap. it is so complicated and the criteria, only being able to earn £151 a week, i can't survive on that. �* ., ., .,

£151 a week, i can't survive on that. ~ ., ., ., ., £151 a week, i can't survive on that. . ., ., ., £151 a week, i can't survive on that. ., ., ., i] that. amanda, what about you? i started claiming _ that. amanda, what about you? i started claiming for— that. amanda, what about you? i started claiming for carer's - started claiming for carer's allowance about eight months into my caring. _ allowance about eight months into my caring. my _ allowance about eight months into my caring, my mother was bedbound and she needed _ caring, my mother was bedbound and she needed round—the—clock care. and i she needed round—the—clock care. and i was _ she needed round—the—clock care. and i was under— she needed round—the—clock care. and i was under the impression it was not means— i was under the impression it was not means tested so i didn't think i had to— not means tested so i didn't think i had to report it. it�*s not means tested so i didn't think i had to report it.— had to report it. it's not means tested, had to report it. it's not means tested. it's _ had to report it. it's not means tested, it's not _ had to report it. it's not means tested, it's not means - had to report it. it's not means tested, it's not means tested l had to report it. it's not means i tested, it's not means tested but there is an earnings limit. butt there is an earnings limit. but i did not realise _ there is an earnings limit. but i did not realise i _ there is an earnings limit. but i did not realise i had _ there is an earnings limit. but i did not realise i had to - there is an earnings limit. but i did not realise i had to then - there is an earnings limit. but i did not realise i had to then report it to universal credit because i had given— it to universal credit because i had given up— it to universal credit because i had given up work, full—time work to care _ given up work, full—time work to care for— given up work, full—time work to care for my— given up work, full—time work to care for my mum. and if it weren't for the _ care for my mum. and if it weren't for the fact— care for my mum. and if it weren't for the fact that the care system is so broken. — for the fact that the care system is so broken, many families would not have the _ so broken, many families would not have the even do this. but i then started _ have the even do this. but i then started caring for my mother and i was caring — started caring for my mother and i was caring for her between 90 and 120 hours— was caring for her between 90 and 120 hours a — was caring for her between 90 and 120 hours a week.— was caring for her between 90 and 120 hours a week. sorry, 90 to 120 hours? yes. _ 120 hours a week. sorry, 90 to 120 hours? yes, three _ 120 hours a week. sorry, 90 to 120 hours? yes, three working - 120 hours a week. sorry, 90 to 120 hours? yes, three working weeks, | hours? yes, three working weeks, basicall . hours? yes, three working weeks, basically. when _ hours? yes, three working weeks, basically. when i— hours? yes, three working weeks, basically. when i got _ hours? yes, three working weeks, basically. when i got the - hours? yes, three working weeks, basically. when i got the letter- basically. when i got the letter through— basically. when i got the letter through the door to say i owed £1200

because, _ through the door to say i owed £1200 because, well, what had happened was i had because, well, what had happened was i had a _ because, well, what had happened was i had a couple of months into receiving _ i had a couple of months into receiving the benefit, i suddenly realised — receiving the benefit, i suddenly realised it was not only being taken off my— realised it was not only being taken off my universal credit but also taken _ off my universal credit but also taken of — off my universal credit but also taken of my mother's pension credit. so i taken of my mother's pension credit. so i phoned — taken of my mother's pension credit. so i phoned the dwp and i told them that i so i phoned the dwp and i told them that i want— so i phoned the dwp and i told them that i want this to be cancelled print— that i want this to be cancelled print they did not cancel it, they sat on— print they did not cancel it, they sat on that _ print they did not cancel it, they sat on that and did not action it until— sat on that and did not action it until the — sat on that and did not action it until the october. i got this bill for £1200 — until the october. i got this bill for £1200 and it made me feel like a criminat _ for £1200 and it made me feel like a criminal. ~ , for £1200 and it made me feel like a criminal-- it— for £1200 and it made me feel like a criminal.- it was _ for £1200 and it made me feel like a criminal.- it was as _ for £1200 and it made me feel like a criminal.- it was as if _ for £1200 and it made me feel like a criminal. why? it was as if i had done something _ criminal. why? it was as if i had done something wrong, - criminal. why? it was as if i had done something wrong, you - criminal. t it was as if i had done something wrong, you know. criminal. why? it was as if i had - done something wrong, you know. and actuall done something wrong, you know. actually you done something wrong, you know. mr. actually you had contacted them and said, please stop paying it because it's not worth it? and said, please stop paying it because it's not worth it?— it's not worth it? and i said, the woman i spoke to _ it's not worth it? and i said, the woman i spoke to was _ it's not worth it? and i said, the | woman i spoke to was extremely it's not worth it? and i said, the - woman i spoke to was extremely rude. i said. _ woman i spoke to was extremely rude. i said. it _ woman i spoke to was extremely rude. i said. it is _ woman i spoke to was extremely rude. i said, it isjust not worth it for me, _ i said, it isjust not worth it for me. in fact _ i said, it isjust not worth it for me, in fact it is making us £300 worse _ me, in fact it is making us £300 worse off— me, in fact it is making us £300 worse off a _ me, in fact it is making us £300 worse off a month. sol me, in fact it is making us £300 worse off a month. so i need it stopped, — worse off a month. so i need it

stopped, please. and when i complained, i found out, when i got the bill_ complained, i found out, when i got the bill for— complained, i found out, when i got the bill for 1200 which i think was injuty_ the bill for 1200 which i think was injuty or— the bill for 1200 which i think was injuly or august, i phoned them up again— injuly or august, i phoned them up again and _ injuly or august, i phoned them up again and they did not know anything about— again and they did not know anything about the _ again and they did not know anything about the cancellation. they are finally _ about the cancellation. they are finally cancelled it in october. my mother— finally cancelled it in october. my mother still lost all her pension credit— mother still lost all her pension credit i'm — mother still lost all her pension credit i'm trying to get that back. let's _ credit i'm trying to get that back. let's talk— credit i'm trying to get that back. let's talk a — credit i'm trying to get that back. let's talk a little bit with you if we may about what you do as carers. rae, how much does conor mckerr do for you? 50 rae, how much does conor mckerr do for ou? . ,., . rae, how much does conor mckerr do for ou? . . . for you? so much, so much, so much. -- do for— for you? so much, so much, so much. -- do for you- — for you? so much, so much, so much. -- do for you- we _ for you? so much, so much, so much. -- do for you. we have _ for you? so much, so much, so much. -- do for you. we have school- for you? so much, so much, so much. -- do for you. we have school runs . -- do for you. we have school runs for the children, _ -- do for you. we have school runs for the children, i _ -- do for you. we have school runs for the children, i can't _ -- do for you. we have school runs for the children, i can't get - -- do for you. we have school runs for the children, i can't get out - -- do for you. we have school runs for the children, i can't get out of. for the children, i can't get out of bed untit— for the children, i can't get out of bed until it — for the children, i can't get out of bed until 11 in the morning so he has to— bed until 11 in the morning so he has to do— bed until 11 in the morning so he has to do all the school runs every day, _ has to do all the school runs every day, it _ has to do all the school runs every day, it is— has to do all the school runs every day, it is the — has to do all the school runs every day, it is the cleaning around the house _ day, it is the cleaning around the house because a lot of the time i can't _ house because a lot of the time i can't do — house because a lot of the time i can't do it — house because a lot of the time i can't do it. some days are better than _ can't do it. some days are better than others, some days i'm in bed, some _ than others, some days i'm in bed, some on— than others, some days i'm in bed, some on the — than others, some days i'm in bed, some on the sofa, other days i can have _ some on the sofa, other days i can have a _ some on the sofa, other days i can have a little — some on the sofa, other days i can have a little day out with my kids, i have a little day out with my kids, i can _ have a little day out with my kids,

i can do _ have a little day out with my kids, i can do these little things. cooking _ i can do these little things. cooking is something i try to do because — cooking is something i try to do because that is something i love to do and _ because that is something i love to do and i_ because that is something i love to do and i try— because that is something i love to do and i try to fit that in but other— do and i try to fit that in but other than that, he does almost everything. if other than that, he does almost everything-— other than that, he does almost eve hina. ,, . ., everything. if there is such a thing as a typical _ everything. if there is such a thing as a typical week— everything. if there is such a thing as a typical week for _ everything. if there is such a thing as a typical week for you, - everything. if there is such a thing as a typical week for you, conor, l as a typical week for you, conor, can you describe what it's like? every day starts at around 6:15am, to prepare the house and then it will be getting the children ready for school and taking them, back again. one is still at nursery part—time. i will try to get as much chores done in the house as possible and then it is helping rae getting up and then it is helping rae getting up and starting the day and sometimes that can be just coming downstairs. that can be the majority trying to give as much quality, to what we can do as possible. some days we can get out, some we can't.

if connor wasn't doing that what impact would it have on you? i probably wouldn't be here. what do you mean. 3 probably wouldn't be here. what do ou mean. �* probably wouldn't be here. what do ou mean. ~ , ., , ., ., probably wouldn't be here. what do ou mean. ~ , ., ., ., you mean. a few years ago i was in a deep hole. — you mean. a few years ago i was in a deep hole, where _ you mean. a few years ago i was in a deep hole, where i _ you mean. a few years ago i was in a deep hole, where i got _ you mean. a few years ago i was in a deep hole, where i got no _ you mean. a few years ago i was in a deep hole, where i got no flap - you mean. a few years ago i was in a deep hole, where i got no flap the i deep hole, where i got no flap the nhs, _ deep hole, where i got no flap the nhs, i_ deep hole, where i got no flap the nhs, i got — deep hole, where i got no flap the nhs, i got nothing. i only had connor, — nhs, i got nothing. i only had connor, a _ nhs, i got nothing. i only had connor, a lot of that was fiscal stuff— connor, a lot of that was fiscal stuff but — connor, a lot of that was fiscal stuff but i _ connor, a lot of that was fiscal stuff but i had a lot of mental problems where the bpd and i was suicidal— problems where the bpd and i was suicidal and it, problems where the bpd and i was suicidaland it, it was problems where the bpd and i was suicidal and it, it was hard, problems where the bpd and i was suicidaland it, it was hard, but problems where the bpd and i was suicidal and it, it was hard, but we -ot suicidal and it, it was hard, but we got through— suicidal and it, it was hard, but we got through it, but i wouldn't have -ot got through it, but i wouldn't have got through it, but i wouldn't have got through it, but i wouldn't have got through it if it wasn't for connor~ _ got through it if it wasn't for connor. multiple times over. yeah. thank ou connor. multiple times over. yeah. thank you for— connor. multiple times over. yeah. thank you for sharing _ connor. multiple times over. yeah. thank you for sharing that - connor. multiple times over. yeah. thank you for sharing that with - connor. multiple times over. yeah. thank you for sharing that with us i thank you for sharing that with us and with our audience. nessie, you look afterjamie, your grown upson, do you think the carer's allowance of just under do you think the carer's allowance ofjust under £82 fairly covers the hours you spend caring for him. trio. hours you spend caring for him. no, i mean hours you spend caring for him. no, i mean look — hours you spend caring for him. no, i mean look at _ hours you spend caring for him. tip, i mean look at me. i am exhausted. i

work 19 hours each and every day, i was working till nearly 4am this morning and i will work till 4am tonight, and i have been doing that now, year in, year out, for 27 years. my son is now 34. he is bed bound. he has high functioning autism but he can't read or write. i have to provide all his meals, we get no social care, we have got, we live in the middle of nowhere norfolk, and our house is in a very poor state of repair. so i have to do everything. poor state of repair. so i have to do everything-— poor state of repair. so i have to do everything.- and - poor state of repair. so i have to do everything.- and it's - poor state of repair. so i have to | do everything.- and it's had poor state of repair. so i have to do everything. yeah. and it's had a very serious _ do everything. yeah. and it's had a very serious toll _ do everything. yeah. and it's had a very serious toll on _ do everything. yeah. and it's had a very serious toll on my _ do everything. yeah. and it's had a very serious toll on my own - do everything. yeah. and it's had a very serious toll on my own physical health. my son is 6 foot 2. lifting

a six foot 2 man, i am not a big, a six foot2 man, iam nota big, tall a six foot 2 man, i am not a big, tall lady but it has damaged my back, i have hip problems, i broke my leg, it is, it takes over your life. there is nothing else but care. the only time i get any kind of break, is when i manage to go into townjust to of break, is when i manage to go into town just to get some food. half an hour, maybe twice a week. right so your break is when you are doing anotherjob, when you are are going shopping that doing anotherjob, when you are are going shoppin— going shopping that is my own time awa from going shopping that is my own time away from care _ going shopping that is my own time away from care because _ going shopping that is my own time away from care because you - going shopping that is my own time away from care because you are - going shopping that is my own time | away from care because you are 24/7 caring for someone, who needs it and i have been told by social services in norfolk that if they were to bring in care workers, to do myjob, it would actually cost them over £5,500, because they would have to provide night care, and care through the day, 24/7, and that would cost a lot of money. the day, 24”, and that would cost a lot of money-—

lot of money. sure... £817 is a treat lot of money. sure... £817 is a great value — lot of money. sure... £817 is a great value for _ lot of money. sure... £817 is a great value for the _ lot of money. sure... £817 is a great value for the state. - great value for the state. understood. let me bring in sir ed davey, you know what it is like to be a carer, and you must be able to relate to what the guests are saying this evening?— relate to what the guests are saying this evening? victoria my heart goes out to all your _ this evening? victoria my heart goes out to all your carers _ this evening? victoria my heart goes out to all your carers who, _ this evening? victoria my heart goes out to all your carers who, your - out to all your carers who, your viewers can see are struggling just to get by. they have made honest mistakes due to a broken flawed system and now they are getting dreadfully penalised. it is just wrong. whether it is ministers or the dwp, people don't seem to understand that carers are exhausted. you heard from ness, looking after her son, how tiring it can be, and they are trying to juggle can be, and they are trying to juggle that and work to earn a small amount of money, to help them get by. the idea that this system is working isjust by. the idea that this system is working is just wrong, by. the idea that this system is working isjust wrong, and if ministers arejust

working isjust wrong, and if ministers are just listening to what carers are telling them, they really have to reform the whole system. {lilia have to reform the whole system. ok, and we will talk about whether there is a better way of doing this, i have to say we have so many messages from you who are watching at home, i am going to read a couple. gareth in swansea saying my wife has been asked to pay back over £1,000 because the dwp say she earned the thresh hold for seven month, after she received a backdated pay rise from the council. how is a lady supposed to know what is going to happen in national pay negotiations at the start of a financial year? stu says i am paying £30 a month back which i negotiated back from £65 a month. i have no idea how they cack lated it and it has been more than two years, it is nearly 10% of my monthly income on universal credit, the system is a shambles. helen says i have cancelled my allowance and had an email conxxxx confirming it but it has not

stopped. i can't get through to anyone. diane in glasgow, you said you explained a bit about why you ended up explained a bit about why you ended up breaching the earnings limit, working as a part—time as a dinner lady, and sometimes you earn a bit more because you did an extra hour, did you never wonder why you were essentially still getting the carer's allowance, when you had gone over the limit or were you not aware of the earnings limit? to over the limit or were you not aware of the earnings limit?— of the earnings limit? to be honest i wasn't of the earnings limit? to be honest i wasn't aware _ of the earnings limit? to be honest i wasn't aware i _ of the earnings limit? to be honest i wasn't aware i had _ of the earnings limit? to be honest i wasn't aware i had went _ of the earnings limit? to be honest i wasn't aware i had went over - of the earnings limit? to be honest i wasn't aware i had went over the l i wasn't aware i had went over the limit when i had received like my money owed from the council. is only weeks, you know, that is the last thing you are thinking about, you know, depending how my son's been of what his behaviour is like, or you are stressed about thing, the last thing is thinking well i have never went over, i only did my part—time hours and i ended up reducing them to the stage where i thought, i'm going to end up having no hours at

all if i keep this up, to try and get carers. all if i keep this up, to try and get carers-— all if i keep this up, to try and net carers. �* ., ~' all if i keep this up, to try and net carers. �* ., i. ~ i. ., get carers. but do you think you are culable get carers. but do you think you are culpable for — get carers. but do you think you are culpable for the _ get carers. but do you think you are culpable for the overpayments? - get carers. but do you think you are culpable for the overpayments? i i culpable for the overpayments? i should have been more aware, culpable for the overpayments? t should have been more aware, but, it isjust... should have been more aware, but, it is just... just, should have been more aware, but, it isjust... just, you know, life taking over, you know. things happen and it is not that i was consciously thinking to myself, right, you know i am trying to diddle the carers money out of you know keeping the, i was so shocked when they phoned me to say i owed over £20,000, and i was almost honest with them and i told them, look i have only ever worked part—time, there has never been a change in circumstances with my son, it is still the same but i still got the phone call to say i owed all that money. find still got the phone call to say i owed all that money. and you're -a in: owed all that money. and you're paying back _ owed all that money. and you're paying back £10 _ owed all that money. and you're paying back £10 a _ owed all that money. and you're paying back £10 a month. - owed all that money. and you're paying back £10 a month. yes, l owed all that money. and you're i paying back £10 a month. yes, yes. do ou paying back £10 a month. yes, yes. do you know _ paying back £10 a month. yes, yes. do you know when _ paying back £10 a month. yes, yes. do you know when that, _ paying back £10 a month. yes, yes. do you know when that, what - paying back £10 a month. yes, yes. do you know when that, what year. paying back £10 a month. yes, yes. | do you know when that, what year it will be by the time you have paid that 20 grand? trio. will be by the time you have paid that 20 grand?— will be by the time you have paid

that 20 grand? no, have cancelled carer, i that 20 grand? no, have cancelled carer. i don't— that 20 grand? no, have cancelled carer, i don't get _ that 20 grand? no, have cancelled carer, i don't get it _ that 20 grand? no, have cancelled carer, i don't get it now, _ that 20 grand? no, have cancelled carer, i don't get it now, i- that 20 grand? no, have cancelled carer, i don't get it now, i thought| carer, i don't get it now, i thought it is not worth the hassle. i felt physically sick when i got the phone call, like that other lady said, i felt guilty, ifelt like call, like that other lady said, i felt guilty, i felt like a criminal thinking i have this letter from carers, like, after the phone call, you know, saying what all this money that i owed and ijust thought, no, i can't go on like this, so i now don't get carers but i changed to anotherjob don't get carers but i changed to another job with don't get carers but i changed to anotherjob with more hours so i can pay more back. anotherjob with more hours so i can pay more back-— anotherjob with more hours so i can pay more back. understood. and how do ou feel pay more back. understood. and how do you feel about _ pay more back. understood. and how do you feel about this _ pay more back. understood. and how do you feel about this diane? - pay more back. understood. and how do you feel about this diane? just - do you feel about this diane? just totall do you feel about this diane? tut totally scunners you. there is so much going on in your life with being a carer and that on top is just, it is like this is supposed to help you and it makes you physically feel sick because you think it is helping nobody and you feel like a criminal at the end of it all and you think if somebody phoned me up and said look, you went over whether it was the last year or something,

but to come back and say you owe over £20,000, and by the way it's a £50 fine because you didn't tell us on top of that. irate £50 fine because you didn't tell us on top of that. we asked for an interview with the work and pensions secretary or any ministerfrom his department. that request was declined, but the department gave us a statement. "unpaid carers are unsung heroes. earnings—related overpayments represent 2.1% of the £3.3 billion we spend supporting carers, and claimants have a responsibility to inform us of changes that could impact their award, with safeguards in place to manage repayments while protecting the public purse." dan white is here from disability rights uk. what's your response to that? well once again we are saying the statement from the government that is like giving themselves a pat on the back for work they are doing

without addressing the real issues going on within the care community itself, at the moment. we have seen and heard the unbelievable levels of poverty that carers are living in, the unbelievable amounts of monetary policy that they are being forced to pay back, money that could be effectively going on supporting the disabled individual that they are living with. so it is very much what we call a wallpaper quote. the wallpaper over the crack, telling everyone how wonderful they have done. they said in, they noted the increase in the allowance they have given in the last 14 years. they increase in the allowance they have given in the last 14 years.— given in the last 14 years. they say it has gone — given in the last 14 years. they say it has gone up _ given in the last 14 years. they say it has gone up £1500s. _ given in the last 14 years. they say it has gone up £1500s. but - given in the last 14 years. they say it has gone up £1500s. but if- given in the last 14 years. they say it has gone up £1500s. but if you l it has gone up £1500s. but if you look at the _ it has gone up £1500s. but if you look at the facts _ it has gone up £1500s. but if you look at the facts and _ it has gone up £1500s. but if you look at the facts and what - it has gone up £1500s. but if you look at the facts and what it - it has gone up £1500s. but if you | look at the facts and what it works out at 2.a week which is effectively nothing. they are not addressing the real issues here which is that the system itself isn't fit for purpose, it is very fragmented. it is very threatening. it is very overbearing, the paperwork is a milestone, and as

a policy, and campaigns person and as a carer myself i know that for a fact, so the problem is the system itself needs a complete restructuring.— itself needs a complete restructuring. itself needs a complete restructurinr. ~ ., ,, ., restructuring. ok. we will talk more in a moment — restructuring. ok. we will talk more in a moment and _ restructuring. ok. we will talk more in a moment and bring _ restructuring. ok. we will talk more in a moment and bring in _ restructuring. ok. we will talk more in a moment and bring in our- restructuring. ok. we will talk more in a moment and bring in our other. in a moment and bring in our other guests but let us bring you facts about the scale of this problem. here's our economics editor, ben chu. how big in the scheme of things is the problem of carer's allowance overpayments? let us examine the numbers. this year the total cost of this benefit is expected to rise to around £4.2 billion. though there are a lot more carers today than in the past, this year there are expected to 1.3 million eligible claimants. the department for work and pensions says its statistics point to a 5.2% overpayment rate for carer's allowance. that suggests around £218 million of overpayments this year. are these big numbers? well, in the context of £290 billion of total annual benefits expenditure by dwp in 2024/25, the carer's allowance accounts for around 1.4% of that.

as you can see, it is dwarfed by the state pension and universal credit, and estimated carer's allowance overpayments of 218 million would representjust 0.08% of the total. but it is probably more appropriate to look at carer's allowance overpayments as a share of all benefits overpayments, rather than all benefits. last year, that was estimated at around £8.3 billion. so the £218 million a year estimated carer's allowance overpayments would represent around 2.5% of total benefit overpayments. but is the evidence of a particular fraud problem with carer's allowance overpayments there, as opposed to mistakes? is a hard line needed for the dwp for deterrence purposes? dwp estimates that around 60% of overpayments are due to fraud, though the national audit office in 2019 expressed some scepticism about these calculations and noted that less than 10% of ca rer�*s allowance overpayments were referred to the crown prosecution service for prosecution, or led to an administrative penalty. there is some broader relevant

context here as well. the most recent census suggested around 5.7 million unpaid carers in the uk — far more than are eligible for carer's allowance — and according to research by the centre for care, unpaid carers in england and wales created economic value of around £162 billion last year, based on what it would cost us to provide all those hours of care privately. andy says i was overpaid £5 thousand and had to declare myself bankrupt. kevin says i started caring for my partner. they overpaid me 4,00 pounds and they want it back. sired davy will be with us later. we

have chair of the work and pensions select committee sir stephen timms plus ian mansfield from policy exchange and we have dan white still with us as well from disabilities rights uk. sir ed davey you heard ben say there have been £218 million in overpayments of allowance, the government say they need to cull back that money you were part of this government once, isn't it important to call that money back? no, i think it has to be written off, and let us stand back a minute victoria, let us remember what the carers are doing, they are doing the most amazing job and extremely difficult circumstances, they are propping up the care system and if we reflect on the importance of the care system for our nhs, they are propping up the nhs as well. what i think we should be doing in this debate is notjust looking at the amounts of money you are talking about, but looking at in the context of reforming our nhs, we need to get

behind family carers and social care to transform our nhs and we do that by valuing our carer first overall, rather than penalising them. if rather than penalising them. if you... rather than penalising them. if you- -- we _ rather than penalising them. if you... we need _ rather than penalising them. if you... we need to _ rather than penalising them. if you... we need to do - rather than penalising them. if you... we need to do is- rather than penalising them. if| you... we need to do is reform rather than penalising them. if - you. .. we need to do is reform the you... we need to do is reform the whole system _ you... we need to do is reform the whole system is. _ you... we need to do is reform the whole system is. but _ you... we need to do is reform the whole system is. but let _ you... we need to do is reform the whole system is. but let us - you... we need to do is reform the whole system is. but let us talk . whole system is. but let us talk about the writing _ whole system is. but let us talk about the writing off, _ whole system is. but let us talk about the writing off, which - whole system is. but let us talk about the writing off, which you whole system is. but let us talk - about the writing off, which you are calling for, what about the carers that did inform the dwp they had gone over the earnings limit, what about those like elizabeth who have paid the money back? weill. about those like elizabeth who have paid the money back?— paid the money back? well, that would need _ paid the money back? well, that would need to _ paid the money back? well, that would need to be _ paid the money back? well, that would need to be looked - paid the money back? well, that would need to be looked at - paid the money back? well, that would need to be looked at at i paid the money back? well, that would need to be looked at at a| would need to be looked at at a review i am calling for, but the idea that people who are on very low incomes can have this money clawed back, one of your examples i think it was ness, over 30 year, it is absurd these people are doing a fantasticjob, they are already struggling to get by, the idea they should pay this back, almost for ever and a day is just wrong, and lets remember, the dwp was told

about this problem five years ago. the select committee warned them and the government promised to put it right. they said the government said, that they were going to use new technology so they would be able to warn carers getting the allowance, that they had overshot their earnings limit, and therefore, they would make a correction, the dwp failed to do that. so it is government fair ideal, not the honest mistakes by carer, and that is another reason while the debt should be written off so we can get this on a proper footing, should be written off so we can get this on a properfooting, reform should be written off so we can get this on a proper footing, reform the whole system and value carers so we see their work in the context of reforming our nhs. ian mansfield from policy exchange, do you agree the debt should be written off?— do you agree the debt should be written off? , ., , ., written off? there should be more compassion _ written off? there should be more compassion in _ written off? there should be more compassion in the _ written off? there should be more compassion in the system - written off? there should be more compassion in the system than - compassion in the system than currently, _ compassion in the system than currently, it would not go so far is a full— currently, it would not go so far is a full write — currently, it would not go so far is a full write off because we need to protect _ a full write off because we need to protect public money and distinguish between _ protect public money and distinguish between the small number of people who may— between the small number of people who may have set out to quit fraud,

about _ who may have set out to quit fraud, about 10%. — who may have set out to quit fraud, about 10%, and the much larger number— about 10%, and the much larger number such as those we have heard from the _ number such as those we have heard from the who have made honest mistakes — from the who have made honest mistakes and you have informed the government and the government has not come _ government and the government has not come back to them and implemented that. do not come back to them and implemented that.- not come back to them and implemented that. do you accept that? i implemented that. do you accept that? i think _ implemented that. do you accept that? l think these _ implemented that. do you accept that? i think these are _ implemented that. do you accept that? i think these are carers - implemented that. do you accept| that? i think these are carers who are aaivin that? i think these are carers who are giving their — that? i think these are carers who are giving their all _ that? i think these are carers who are giving their all every - that? i think these are carers who are giving their all every day, - that? i think these are carers who | are giving their all every day, they are giving their all every day, they are not— are giving their all every day, they are not accountants _ are giving their all every day, they are not accountants by _ are giving their all every day, they are not accountants by nature, - are giving their all every day, they. are not accountants by nature, they are not accountants by nature, they are carers, — are not accountants by nature, they are carers, they're _ are not accountants by nature, they are carers, they're not _ are not accountants by nature, they are carers, they're not hiding - are not accountants by nature, theyl are carers, they're not hiding money in offshore _ are carers, they're not hiding money in offshore accounts. _ are carers, they're not hiding money in offshore accounts. they— are carers, they're not hiding money in offshore accounts. they are - are carers, they're not hiding money in offshore accounts. they are not. in offshore accounts. they are not hi-h in offshore accounts. they are not high earners — in offshore accounts. they are not high earners avoiding _ in offshore accounts. they are not high earners avoiding paying - in offshore accounts. they are not high earners avoiding paying tax l in offshore accounts. they are not. high earners avoiding paying tax and iagree _ high earners avoiding paying tax and iagree that — high earners avoiding paying tax and iagree that the _ high earners avoiding paying tax and i agree that the debt _ high earners avoiding paying tax and i agree that the debt should - high earners avoiding paying tax and i agree that the debt should be - i agree that the debt should be written — i agree that the debt should be written off _ i agree that the debt should be written off. this _ i agree that the debt should be written off. this is _ i agree that the debt should be written off. this is part - i agree that the debt should be written off. this is part of - i agree that the debt should be written off. this is part of the i i agree that the debt should be - written off. this is part of the dwp fault _ written off. this is part of the dwp fault all _ written off. this is part of the dwp fault. all these _ written off. this is part of the dwp fault. all these carers _ written off. this is part of the dwp fault. all these carers should - written off. this is part of the dwp fault. all these carers should have| fault. all these carers should have these _ fault. all these carers should have these debts — fault. all these carers should have these debts written _ fault. all these carers should have these debts written off— fault. all these carers should have i these debts written off straightaway because _ these debts written off straightaway because they're _ these debts written off straightaway because they're saving _ these debts written off straightaway because they're saving the - these debts written off straightaway because they're saving the country. these debts written off straightawayj because they're saving the country a hu-e because they're saving the country a huge amount— because they're saving the country a huge amount of— because they're saving the country a huge amount of money— because they're saving the country a huge amount of money every- because they're saving the country a huge amount of money every year. i because they're saving the country a i huge amount of money every year. do huge amount of money every year. d: you huge amount of money every year. you accept it is the responsibility of the dwp? as sir david pointed out, it never happen because benefit staff get alerts from hmrc if a claimant is earning too much so the dwp has the ability to prevent overpayment. i dwp has the ability to prevent overpayment-— dwp has the ability to prevent overpayment. dwp has the ability to prevent overa ment. ~ ., , , overpayment. i think absolutely we should look — overpayment. i think absolutely we should look at _ overpayment. i think absolutely we should look at where _

overpayment. i think absolutely we should look at where the _ overpayment. i think absolutely we should look at where the balance i overpayment. i think absolutely we | should look at where the balance of fault lies— should look at where the balance of fault lies and in some cases it seems — fault lies and in some cases it seems it— fault lies and in some cases it seems it was on the dwp but what i would _ seems it was on the dwp but what i would say— seems it was on the dwp but what i would say as well i would like to use this — would say as well i would like to use this as— would say as well i would like to use this as an opportunity that we can look— use this as an opportunity that we can look at— use this as an opportunity that we can look at the carer's allowance in more _ can look at the carer's allowance in more detail— can look at the carer's allowance in more detail going forward because clearly— more detail going forward because clearly it's — more detail going forward because clearly it's not fit for purpose in terms _ clearly it's not fit for purpose in terms of — clearly it's not fit for purpose in terms of making work pay, particularly when you look at the cliff edge. that there is no tapering. what we have heard from tonight— tapering. what we have heard from tonight is— tapering. what we have heard from tonight is a — tapering. what we have heard from tonight is a lot of people who want tonight is a lot of people who want to do— tonight is a lot of people who want to do the _ tonight is a lot of people who want to do the right thing, they want to earn: _ to do the right thing, they want to earn, not — to do the right thing, they want to earn, notjust be dependent on the states— earn, notjust be dependent on the states and — earn, notjust be dependent on the states and they should not be penalised for it by going, just 1p over— penalised for it by going, just 1p over the — penalised for it by going, just 1p over the threshold and the whole lot -ets over the threshold and the whole lot gets written off. over the threshold and the whole lot gets written off-— gets written off. what about the other billions _ gets written off. what about the other billions of _ gets written off. what about the other billions of pounds - gets written off. what about the other billions of pounds that - gets written off. what about the other billions of pounds that is l other billions of pounds that is wasted by the government or is lost to fraud which they don't recover? the nao in march last year reported that hmrc recovered £762 million out of an estimated £4.5 billion of fraud and error in its covid support loans and schemes. hmrc expects to recover just over £1 loans and schemes. hmrc expects to recoverjust over £1 billion which essentially means 3.4 billion will not be recovered so it is a de facto

write—off which is a massive amount of money. this is £218 million. irate of money. this is £218 million. we actually wrote a report in 2010 to an estimated eight at £46 billion from _ an estimated eight at £46 billion from fraud from tobin and we said that should — from fraud from tobin and we said that should be gone after —— in 2020 — that should be gone after -- in 2020. , . that should be gone after -- in 2020. y . y that should be gone after -- in 2020. y . , ., that should be gone after -- in 2020. y , ., ., y 2020. they reckon they are only caettin 2020. they reckon they are only getting about — 2020. they reckon they are only getting about a _ 2020. they reckon they are only getting about a billion. - 2020. they reckon they are only getting about a billion. need - 2020. they reckon they are only getting about a billion. need to| 2020. they reckon they are only i getting about a billion. need to be lookin: at getting about a billion. need to be looking at fraud _ getting about a billion. need to be looking at fraud across _ getting about a billion. need to be looking at fraud across the - getting about a billion. need to be looking at fraud across the piece i looking at fraud across the piece but what — looking at fraud across the piece but what we have had to night, were not mainly— but what we have had to night, were not mainly talking about fraud, were talking _ not mainly talking about fraud, were talking about a highly complex systems — talking about a highly complex systems with multiple interacting benefits — systems with multiple interacting benefits. the reason i don't support the complete write—off is because actually, — the complete write—off is because actually, it— the complete write—off is because actually, it would set a bad precedent for elsewhere. sorry, i didn't need _ precedent for elsewhere. sorry, i didn't need to _ precedent for elsewhere. sorry, i didn't need to stop _ precedent for elsewhere. sorry, i didn't need to stop you _ precedent for elsewhere. sorry, i didn't need to stop you in - precedent for elsewhere. sorry, i didn't need to stop you in the - didn't need to stop you in the middle of a sentence. i didn't need to stop you in the middle of a sentence.- didn't need to stop you in the middle of a sentence. i was going to sa , on a middle of a sentence. i was going to say, on a case-by-case _ middle of a sentence. i was going to say, on a case-by-case basis, - middle of a sentence. i was going to say, on a case-by-case basis, that l say, on a case—by—case basis, that will allow— say, on a case—by—case basis, that will allow openly wants to much more compassionate approach. sir will allow openly wants to much more compassionate approach.— compassionate approach. sir stephen timms, compassionate approach. sir stephen timms. from — compassionate approach. sir stephen timms, from labour, _ compassionate approach. sir stephen timms, from labour, here _ compassionate approach. sir stephen timms, from labour, here the - compassionate approach. sir stephen timms, from labour, here the select| timms, from labour, here the select committee. five years ago the committee. five years ago the committee highlighted these problems and said more staff were needed to in order to alert carers to

overpayments but it's clearly still happening so why? the overpayments but it's clearly still happening so why? overpayments but it's clearly still hauenina so wh ? happening so why? the department has not done what — happening so why? the department has not done what it _ happening so why? the department has not done what it said _ happening so why? the department has not done what it said it _ happening so why? the department has not done what it said it would _ happening so why? the department has not done what it said it would do. - not done what it said it would do. is not done what it said it would do. is the _ not done what it said it would do. is the key— not done what it said it would do. is the key is— not done what it said it would do. is the key is those _ not done what it said it would do. is the key is those alerts - not done what it said it would do. is the key is those alerts you - is the key is those alerts you mentioned, _ is the key is those alerts you mentioned, the _ is the key is those alerts you mentioned, the departmentl is the key is those alerts you i mentioned, the department is is the key is those alerts you - mentioned, the department is told everything — mentioned, the department is told everything a — mentioned, the department is told everything a month _ mentioned, the department is told everything a month when - mentioned, the department is told. everything a month when somebody .oes everything a month when somebody goes over— everything a month when somebody goes over the — everything a month when somebody goes over the earnings— everything a month when somebody goes over the earnings limit. - everything a month when somebody goes over the earnings limit. the i goes over the earnings limit. the minimum — goes over the earnings limit. the minimum they— goes over the earnings limit. the minimum they should _ goes over the earnings limit. the minimum they should do - goes over the earnings limit. the minimum they should do is - goes over the earnings limit. the minimum they should do is tell. goes over the earnings limit. the i minimum they should do is tell the carers _ minimum they should do is tell the carers that— minimum they should do is tell the carers that they _ minimum they should do is tell the carers that they have _ minimum they should do is tell the carers that they have had - minimum they should do is tell the carers that they have had this - carers that they have had this information— carers that they have had this information there _ carers that they have had this information there is - carers that they have had this information there is a - carers that they have had thisl information there is a question about— information there is a question about whether— information there is a question about whether they— information there is a question about whether they are - information there is a questionl about whether they are entitled information there is a question - about whether they are entitled to benefit _ about whether they are entitled to benefit the — about whether they are entitled to benefit. the people _ about whether they are entitled to benefit. the people we _ about whether they are entitled to benefit. the people we have - about whether they are entitled to| benefit. the people we have heard from this— benefit. the people we have heard from this evening _ benefit. the people we have heard from this evening never— benefit. the people we have heard from this evening never heard - from this evening never heard anything — from this evening never heard anything until— from this evening never heard anything until they— from this evening never heard anything until they had - from this evening never heard anything until they had a - from this evening never heard - anything until they had a £20,000 debt _ anything until they had a £20,000 debt that— anything until they had a £20,000 debt that is— anything until they had a £20,000 debt. that is completely— debt. that is completely unnecessary. _ debt. that is completely unnecessary. the - debt. that is completely- unnecessary. the department debt. that is completely— unnecessary. the department must focus _ unnecessary. the department must focus on — unnecessary. the department must focus on doing — unnecessary. the department must focus on doing its _ unnecessary. the department must focus on doing itsjob _ unnecessary. the department must focus on doing itsjob properly. - unnecessary. the department must focus on doing itsjob properly. a. focus on doing itsjob properly. a lot of— focus on doing itsjob properly. a lot of these — focus on doing itsjob properly. a lot of these alerts _ focus on doing itsjob properly. a lot of these alerts it _ focus on doing itsjob properly. a lot of these alerts it receives - focus on doing itsjob properly. a lot of these alerts it receives it i lot of these alerts it receives it completely— lot of these alerts it receives it completely ignores. _ lot of these alerts it receives it completely ignores. i- lot of these alerts it receives it completely ignores. i think- lot of these alerts it receives it i completely ignores. i think every time _ completely ignores. i think every time they— completely ignores. i think every time they get _ completely ignores. i think every time they get an _ completely ignores. i think every time they get an alert, _ completely ignores. i think every time they get an alert, they - completely ignores. i think every. time they get an alert, they should alert the _ time they get an alert, they should alert the carer— time they get an alert, they should alert the carer to _ time they get an alert, they should alert the carer to the _ time they get an alert, they should alert the carer to the situation - alert the carer to the situation they— alert the carer to the situation they are — alert the carer to the situation they are in _ alert the carer to the situation theyare in so— alert the carer to the situation they are in-— alert the carer to the situation they are in— alert the carer to the situation they are in. alert the carer to the situation the are in. , ., �* ~ , they are in. so why don't they? why is it still happening? _ they are in. so why don't they? why is it still happening? it _ they are in. so why don't they? why is it still happening? it may - they are in. so why don't they? why is it still happening? it may be - is it still happening? it may be because they _ is it still happening? it may be because they don't _ is it still happening? it may be because they don't have - is it still happening? it may be l because they don't have enough people. — because they don't have enough people. because _ because they don't have enough people, because they— because they don't have enough people, because they don't - because they don't have enough i people, because they don't bother, because they don't have enough - people, because they don't bother, i don't _ people, because they don't bother, i don't know — people, because they don't bother, i don't know but _ people, because they don't bother, i don't know. but it— people, because they don't bother, i don't know. but it was— people, because they don't bother, i don't know. but it was raised - people, because they don't bother, i don't know. but it was raised to - don't know. but it was raised to five years — don't know. but it was raised to five years ago _ don't know. but it was raised to five years ago and _ don't know. but it was raised to five years ago and it _ don't know. but it was raised to five years ago and it does - don't know. but it was raised to five years ago and it does not i don't know. but it was raised to - five years ago and it does not seem to have _ five years ago and it does not seem to have been — five years ago and it does not seem to have been an— five years ago and it does not seem to have been an improvement - five years ago and it does not seem to have been an improvement in i five years ago and it does not seeml to have been an improvement in the time since — to have been an improvement in the time since. today— to have been an improvement in the time since. today actually, - to have been an improvement in the time since. today actually, they- time since. today actually, they have _ time since. today actually, they have said — time since. today actually, they have said they— time since. today actually, they have said they will— time since. today actually, they have said they will experiment i time since. today actually, they. have said they will experiment with

notifying _ have said they will experiment with notifying people _ have said they will experiment with notifying people every— have said they will experiment with notifying people every time, - have said they will experiment with notifying people every time, it's . notifying people every time, it's five years— notifying people every time, it's five years too _ notifying people every time, it's five years too late _ notifying people every time, it's five years too late but _ notifying people every time, it's five years too late but may- notifying people every time, it's five years too late but may be i notifying people every time, it's five years too late but may be a| five years too late but may be a case _ five years too late but may be a case of — five years too late but may be a case of better— five years too late but may be a case of better late _ five years too late but may be a case of better late than - five years too late but may be a case of better late than never, i five years too late but may be a - case of better late than never, they need _ case of better late than never, they need to _ case of better late than never, they need to get— case of better late than never, they need to get on— case of better late than never, they need to get on with _ case of better late than never, they need to get on with not _ case of better late than never, they need to get on with not just - need to get on with not just experimenting _ need to get on with not just experimenting but- need to get on with not just experimenting but doing. need to get on with not just. experimenting but doing that routinely _ experimenting but doing that routinely [to— experimenting but doing that routinel . experimenting but doing that routinel. ., ,, routinely. do you agree with sir ed dave of routinely. do you agree with sir ed davey of the _ routinely. do you agree with sir ed davey of the liberal _ routinely. do you agree with sir ed davey of the liberal democrats - routinely. do you agree with sir ed | davey of the liberal democrats that the debt should be written off? tia. the debt should be written off? no, i think the debt should be written off? no, i think there — the debt should be written off? no, i think there is _ the debt should be written off? no, i think there is a legal problem about— i think there is a legal problem about a — i think there is a legal problem about a large—scale _ i think there is a legal problem about a large—scale write—off. i think there is a legal problem | about a large—scale write—off in these _ about a large—scale write—off in these circumstances. _ about a large—scale write—off in these circumstances. i- about a large—scale write—off in these circumstances. i think. about a large—scale write—off in| these circumstances. i think the focus _ these circumstances. i think the focus must _ these circumstances. i think the focus must be _ these circumstances. i think the focus must be on _ these circumstances. i think the focus must be on stopping - these circumstances. i think the focus must be on stopping the i focus must be on stopping the overpayment _ focus must be on stopping the overpayment happening - focus must be on stopping the overpayment happening in- focus must be on stopping the overpayment happening in the focus must be on stopping the - overpayment happening in the first place. _ overpayment happening in the first place. and — overpayment happening in the first place. and they— overpayment happening in the first place, and they could _ overpayment happening in the first place, and they could readily - overpayment happening in the first place, and they could readily do i place, and they could readily do that given — place, and they could readily do that given the _ place, and they could readily do that given the information - place, and they could readily do that given the information theyl that given the information they already— that given the information they already have _ that given the information they already have. so _ that given the information they already have.— that given the information they already have. that given the information they alread have. ., ~' already have. so even someone like diane who is — already have. so even someone like diane who is told _ already have. so even someone like diane who is told she _ already have. so even someone like diane who is told she owes - already have. so even someone like i diane who is told she owes £20,000, or nessie who is told she owes £11,000, it's going to take them potentially decades to pay that back, and they say it was not... it is down to a complex system. the department _ is down to a complex system. the department is _ is down to a complex system. the department is able to write off debts — department is able to write off debts in — department is able to write off debts in certain— department is able to write off debts in certain tightly- department is able to write off debts in certain tightly defined circumstances _ debts in certain tightly defined circumstances and _ debts in certain tightly defined circumstances and it _ debts in certain tightly defined circumstances and it may - debts in certain tightly defined circumstances and it may be i debts in certain tightly defined - circumstances and it may be those circumstances _ circumstances and it may be those circumstances apply— circumstances and it may be those circumstances apply in _ circumstances and it may be those circumstances apply in one - circumstances and it may be those circumstances apply in one or- circumstances and it may be those circumstances apply in one or ton circumstances and it may be those i circumstances apply in one or two of these _ circumstances apply in one or two of these cases— circumstances apply in one or two of these cases but— circumstances apply in one or two of these cases but to _ circumstances apply in one or two of these cases but to suggest - circumstances apply in one or two of these cases but to suggest that - these cases but to suggest that writing — these cases but to suggest that writing them _ these cases but to suggest that writing them all— these cases but to suggest that writing them all up _ these cases but to suggest that writing them all up going - these cases but to suggest that writing them all up going to- these cases but to suggest that i writing them all up going to solve the problem. _ writing them all up going to solve the problem. it— writing them all up going to solve the problem, it won't. _ writing them all up going to solve the problem, it won't. we - writing them all up going to solve the problem, it won't. we had . writing them all up going to solve the problem, it won't. we had to| the problem, it won't. we had to stop— the problem, it won't. we had to stop them — the problem, it won't. we had to stop them happening _ the problem, it won't. we had to stop them happening in- the problem, it won't. we had to stop them happening in the - the problem, it won't. we had to stop them happening in the firstl stop them happening in the first place _ stop them happening in the first place so— stop them happening in the first lace. y., �*

stop them happening in the first lace. �* ., ., ., place. so you're not calling on a otential place. so you're not calling on a potential labour— place. so you're not calling on a potential labour government i place. so you're not calling on a potential labour government to | place. so you're not calling on a i potential labour government to the debts? ., ~' potential labour government to the debts? ., ~ ., debts? no, i think we need to get the system _ debts? no, i think we need to get the system working _ debts? no, i think we need to get the system working properly. i debts? no, i think we need to get the system working properly. so i debts? no, i think we need to get i the system working properly. so what is the better— the system working properly. so what is the better way _ the system working properly. so what is the better way to _ the system working properly. so what is the better way to do _ the system working properly. so what is the better way to do it, _ the system working properly. so what is the better way to do it, what i the system working properly. so what is the better way to do it, what you i is the better way to do it, what you say? t is the better way to do it, what you sa ? ~ ., ., ., say? i think we are all agreed the s stem is say? i think we are all agreed the system is not _ say? i think we are all agreed the system is not working, _ say? i think we are all agreed the system is not working, that's i say? i think we are all agreed the system is not working, that's the | system is not working, that's the main thing, it's far too fragmented. pieces don't talk to each other and form a jigsaw, that's the main thing. but i come back to it, and i agree, the debts as they stand now have to be written off and we had to start again. the problem is no government seems to want to touch the dwp and go into it. they tried to dabble in social care in boris johnson but that's been picked apart as well. —— underjohnson. we need to think where we are as a society empathy wise, how we focus on getting money back people. we are trying to get it back, i don't know if i can use the word vulnerable, but people who are trying to keep people alive on a daily basis. the money these people are paying back could be easily going towards things, and that cost of living crisis, rememberwe things, and that cost of living crisis, remember we are still in it. carers and disabled people are still paying over the odds for heating and

food and medication and stuff like that so there is a moral argument here to write this off in the middle of the cost of living crisis. let here to write this off in the middle of the cost of living crisis.- of the cost of living crisis. let me read this message _ of the cost of living crisis. let me read this message from - of the cost of living crisis. let me read this message from andrew, | of the cost of living crisis. let me i read this message from andrew, my 85—year—old mum has been told she is £13,000 in debt for not declaring that her son, me, andrew, £13,000 in debt for not declaring that herson, me, andrew, has £13,000 in debt for not declaring that her son, me, andrew, has been receiving a carer's allowance of 800 -- 100 £85 receiving a carer's allowance of 800 —— 100 £85 per month for the past four years. —— 100 £85 per month for the past fouryears. she —— 100 £85 per month for the past four years. she is completely bedbound and has dementia. i care for her 24/7. —— 100 £85 per month. what would be a better system sir ed davey? what would be a better system sir ed dave ? . what would be a better system sir ed dave ? , ., ., ., ., davey? first of all we have to get rid of this really _ davey? first of all we have to get rid of this really crazy _ davey? first of all we have to get rid of this really crazy system, i rid of this really crazy system, that as soon as you earn 1p over the earnings limit of £151 a week, you have to pay back the whole of the carer's allowance. that cliff edge approach is complete nonsense. and i made the argument that we need the reform to sort the care system and

nhs system out together but we also need to make sure that carers are able to work and feel confident to work. the way the system is operating at the moment is not only creating all these massive problems, but it's a massive disincentive to work. we should be encouraging these people to work. of the system is working in a perverse way and it then needs to be a major reform of it. then needs to be a ma'or reform of it. ., ., ., then needs to be a ma'or reform of it. ok. i want to ask our carers, if the prime — it. ok. i want to ask our carers, if the prime minister _ it. ok. i want to ask our carers, if the prime minister was _ it. ok. i want to ask our carers, if the prime minister was watching i the prime minister was watching right now, what would you say to him? t’d right now, what would you say to him? �* ~' ., right now, what would you say to him? �* ~ .,, right now, what would you say to him?�* ~ .,, ., him? i'd like to second some of the stuff that dan _ him? i'd like to second some of the stuff that dan was _ him? i'd like to second some of the stuff that dan was saying _ him? i'd like to second some of the stuff that dan was saying about i him? i'd like to second some of the stuff that dan was saying about the | stuff that dan was saying about the fragmentation of the system because one of— fragmentation of the system because one of the _ fragmentation of the system because one of the huge problems i have when we are _ one of the huge problems i have when we are trying to deal with the issue is that— we are trying to deal with the issue is that none — we are trying to deal with the issue is that none of the departments, the dwp, _ is that none of the departments, the dwp, universal credit, debt management, the people that take the money— management, the people that take the money off— management, the people that take the money off you, they refused to talk to each _ money off you, they refused to talk to each other. and the communication between _ to each other. and the communication between them is absolutely appalling. i would also point out, in terms —

appalling. i would also point out, in terms of— appalling. i would also point out, in terms of wiping off the debt, 280 million _ in terms of wiping off the debt, 280 million sounds like a very big number— million sounds like a very big number but in the grand scheme of things. _ number but in the grand scheme of things, especially compared to other things. _ things, especially compared to other things. the _ things, especially compared to other things, the amount that carers are saving. _ things, the amount that carers are saving. 162 — things, the amount that carers are saving, 162 billion a year, the annual— saving, 162 billion a year, the annual budget of the nhs almost, it works— annual budget of the nhs almost, it works out— annual budget of the nhs almost, it works out at about 445 million per day, i— works out at about 445 million per day i think— works out at about 445 million per day, i think we can afford to let that go— day, i think we can afford to let that go for— day, i think we can afford to let that go for the sake of some of the stories— that go for the sake of some of the stories we — that go for the sake of some of the stories we have heard from everyone else here, _ stories we have heard from everyone else here, diane, they are heartbreaking and they do not deserve — heartbreaking and they do not deserve to be going through this on top of— deserve to be going through this on top of everything else. what deserve to be going through this on top of everything else.— top of everything else. what would ou sa if top of everything else. what would you say if the _ top of everything else. what would you say if the prime _ top of everything else. what would you say if the prime minister- top of everything else. what would you say if the prime minister was i you say if the prime minister was watching right now and you could talk to him directly, briefly, amanda?— talk to him directly, briefly, amanda? ., , ., ., , amanda? that if the state wants --eole amanda? that if the state wants eo - le to amanda? that if the state wants people to be _ amanda? that if the state wants people to be caring _ amanda? that if the state wants people to be caring for— amanda? that if the state wants people to be caring for their i amanda? that if the state wants. people to be caring for their loved ones at home and they have to because the system is so broken, they need to stop persecuting those who do. there needs to be a revolution in the social care sector, an absolute revolution. what sector, an absolute revolution. what

would ou sector, an absolute revolution. what would you say. _