tim hillier, not punishment. tim hillier, sentencing _ not punishment. tim hillier, sentencing expert, - not punishment. tim hillier, sentencing expert, thank- not punishment. tim hillier, | sentencing expert, thank you not punishment. tim hillier, - sentencing expert, thank you very much for your insight. i appreciate your time on bbc news. and if you arejustjoining us, the breaking news is the sentence of a man who stabbed three people to death in nottingham was not unduly lenient. thejudges have ruled valdo nottingham was not unduly lenient. the judges have ruled valdo calocane killed barnaby webber and grace o'malley—kumar both aged 19 and 65—year—old ian coates injune last year, he was given an indefinite hospital order after prosecutors accepted a plea of man slaughter on the grounds of diminished responsibility. we the families to speak on the spec —— steps of the court of appeal and we will return that as soon as they do that. you can get more on that story on the bbc news website and the app. the covid inquiry is in northern ireland today, where first minister michelle o'neill is expected to be questioned over a controversial funeral she attended during the pandemic. she was part of the procession

for bobby storey, the former sinn fein chairman who was linked to several major incidents when he was a member of the ira. he died injune 2020 and critics have suggested social distancing was not maintained at the funeral. michelle o'neill is now giving evidence. let's have a listen in. to evidence. let's have a listen in. if? those first evidence. let's have a listen in. to those first months of the pandemic, in order to understand what government in northern ireland was doing to respond, and i want to start with what you say about this in your witness statement, please, and if we could go to page nine, paragraph 29. paragraph 29, just to orientate us in time. this was the 25th of february. i will come back to that strategic review. butjust

looking at paragraph 30 and what you say there, at this time, the time period you are talking about, the department of health remained the lead department in responding to the predicted global pandemic. staff had stood up ccg and i will come back to that, and were involved in official level meetings from the 20th of february. then you set out a submission that you received and i will go to that. but you say this. the ccg structures were still operating at an official level as department of health officials had not yet activated the arrangements. in line with the contingency protocols. at this point in time and civil contingency were still operating at a proprietary and official level of the executive committee had no direct role in overseeing the response. however

ministers were being raped and ready to step in as and when needed. —— were being briefed. first of all, it wasn't for department of health officials to activate niccma, was it? i officials to activate niccma, was it? , ., , officials to activate niccma, was it? , , , it? i believe it was because there were, in terms _ it? i believe it was because there were, in terms of— it? i believe it was because there were, in terms of the _ it? i believe it was because there were, in terms of the lead - were, in terms of the lead department and all correspondence we received _ department and all correspondence we received at _ department and all correspondence we received at that point, made it very clear— received at that point, made it very clear that _ received at that point, made it very clear that health with the lead department and i also believe that some _ department and i also believe that some of— department and i also believe that some of the information you have explored — some of the information you have explored points to the fact that health— explored points to the fact that health were resisting niccma being stood _ health were resisting niccma being stood up _ health were resisting niccma being stood up and hadn't indicated that we were _ stood up and hadn't indicated that we were at— stood up and hadn't indicated that we were at the stage yet where that would _ we were at the stage yet where that would be _ we were at the stage yet where that would be helpful. | we were at the stage yet where that would be helpful.— would be helpful. i will take this one step at _ would be helpful. i will take this one step at a — would be helpful. i will take this one step at a time _ would be helpful. i will take this one step at a time and - would be helpful. i will take this one step at a time and i - would be helpful. i will take this one step at a time and i will - would be helpful. i will take this one step at a time and i will ask| one step at a time and i will ask you to perhaps base your answers on what you understood at the time as opposed to evidence that you have heard in this inquiry. working out

what you have said, the structures were still operating at an official level as department of health officials had not yet activated niccma arrangements. are you familiar with the 2016 vertical for civil contingencies arrangements in northern ireland? i civil contingencies arrangements in northern ireland?— civil contingencies arrangements in northern ireland? i am. then you will know that _ northern ireland? i am. then you will know that it _ northern ireland? i am. then you will know that it was _ northern ireland? i am. then you will know that it was completely within your powers or those of the executive office to be able to activate those arrangements. do you agree? i activate those arrangements. do you arree? ~ ., ., activate those arrangements. do you arree? ~ . ., _, agree? i think again in context i think we have _ agree? i think again in context i think we have to _ agree? i think again in context i think we have to be _ agree? i think again in context i think we have to be very - agree? i think again in context i think we have to be very clear. agree? i think again in context i i think we have to be very clear that all advice — think we have to be very clear that all advice was very clear and remember we have no other specialised advice, it all sat within— specialised advice, it all sat within the department of health. we were told _ within the department of health. we were told by the head of the civil service, — were told by the head of the civil service, by— were told by the head of the civil service, by everybody we engaged with, _ service, by everybody we engaged with. any— service, by everybody we engaged with, any correspondence we had, that health — with, any correspondence we had, that health with the lead department and that—

that health with the lead department and that at that point they were leading — and that at that point they were leading the charge if you like in terms — leading the charge if you like in terms of— leading the charge if you like in terms of a _ leading the charge if you like in terms of a response. it is only slightly— terms of a response. it is only slightly further down past the february date, towards the end of february — february date, towards the end of february where it starts to become very clear — february where it starts to become very clear that we need to move towards — very clear that we need to move towards the niccma arrangements bein- towards the niccma arrangements being stood up and i think, forgive me, being stood up and i think, forgive me. it _ being stood up and i think, forgive me. it is _ being stood up and i think, forgive me, it is hard on not to reflect on some _ me, it is hard on not to reflect on some of— me, it is hard on not to reflect on some of the — me, it is hard on not to reflect on some of the evidence we have referred — some of the evidence we have referred to throughout the course of the inquirv — referred to throughout the course of the inquiry. it is very clear that we were — the inquiry. it is very clear that we were being resisted in terms of setting _ we were being resisted in terms of setting up— we were being resisted in terms of setting up niccma, because health with a _ setting up niccma, because health with a lead department. however i do think that _ with a lead department. however i do think that on reflection it is very clear— think that on reflection it is very clear that — think that on reflection it is very clear that given the resistance we had from — clear that given the resistance we had from health because they felt we were overreaching or interfering in their area — were overreaching or interfering in their area of work, attorneys, the ability— their area of work, attorneys, the ability to— their area of work, attorneys, the ability to stand up niccma earlier perhaps— ability to stand up niccma earlier perhaps could have been much more beneficial— perhaps could have been much more beneficial in terms of other departments being able to come together— departments being able to come together earlier on will step at the

point _ together earlier on will step at the point of— together earlier on will step at the point of asking for reflection, do you except point of asking for reflection, do you excep— you except that under the 2016 arrangements _ you except that under the 2016 arrangements you _ you except that under the 2016 arrangements you had - you except that under the 2016 arrangements you had the - you except that under the 2016 i arrangements you had the power, you except that under the 2016 - arrangements you had the power, you and the first minister had the power to stand up the civil contingencies arrangements for northern ireland government? i arrangements for northern ireland government?— government? i think it is a matter of fact that _ government? i think it is a matter of fact that we _ government? i think it is a matter of fact that we could _ government? i think it is a matter of fact that we could have - government? i think it is a matter of fact that we could have but - government? i think it is a matter of fact that we could have but it i government? i think it is a matter of fact that we could have but it isi of fact that we could have but it is also equally a matter of fact the department of health were in the lead and — department of health were in the lead and advising against it. i had no other— lead and advising against it. i had no other alternative view and officials — no other alternative view and officials weren't bringing forward recommendations that this is advice from officials that we should move forward _ from officials that we should move forward with this at this time. i think— forward with this at this time. i think it — forward with this at this time. i think it was roundly view within the system _ think it was roundly view within the system in _ think it was roundly view within the system in the civil service that health — system in the civil service that health were in the lead and it was the understanding that our that help was in _ the understanding that our that help was in the _ the understanding that our that help was in the lead and would indicate to us— was in the lead and would indicate to us whenever they needed to move beyond _ to us whenever they needed to move beyond the _ to us whenever they needed to move beyond the health alone and move into the _ beyond the health alone and move into the wider civil contingency space — into the wider civil contingency sace. ., y ., into the wider civil contingency sace. ., , ., , into the wider civil contingency sace. ., , ., space. could you help me as to when ou were space. could you help me as to when you were advised, _ space. could you help me as to when you were advised, and _ space. could you help me as to when you were advised, and i _ space. could you help me as to when you were advised, and i am - space. could you help me as to when you were advised, and i am talking i you were advised, and i am talking about a point in time, when you were

advised by the department of health that you shouldn't set up the civil contingencies arrangements or that they weren't required? i will contingencies arrangements or that they weren't required?— they weren't required? i will have to do is check— they weren't required? i will have to do is check the _ they weren't required? i will have to do is check the date _ they weren't required? i will have to do is check the date but - they weren't required? i will have to do is check the date but i - they weren't required? i will have to do is check the date but i am l to do is check the date but i am very— to do is check the date but i am very clear— to do is check the date but i am very clear that from very early on we were — very clear that from very early on we were being told from the 15th, the 30th— we were being told from the 15th, the 30th ofjanuary that health were in the _ the 30th ofjanuary that health were in the lead, we were being told on the 15th— in the lead, we were being told on the 15th of— in the lead, we were being told on the 15th of february that health were _ the 15th of february that health were in— the 15th of february that health were in the lead, on the 3rd of march — were in the lead, on the 3rd of march from the civil contingencies policies _ march from the civil contingencies policies branch that health were in the lead. — policies branch that health were in the lead, so we had no reason to go counter— the lead, so we had no reason to go counter to— the lead, so we had no reason to go counter to that at that stage. however _ counter to that at that stage. however by the 3rd of march it was a comic— however by the 3rd of march it was a comic where — however by the 3rd of march it was a comic where it needed to be much wider— comic where it needed to be much wider than — comic where it needed to be much wider than i — comic where it needed to be much wider than i have response and i think— wider than i have response and i think that — wider than i have response and i think that is where you can start to see change — think that is where you can start to see change in terms of pace and the work that— see change in terms of pace and the work that was done across civil contingencies. just work that was done across civil contingencies.— work that was done across civil continrencies, , , .., , . contingencies. just because health were in the — contingencies. just because health were in the lead, _ contingencies. just because health were in the lead, that _ contingencies. just because health were in the lead, that didn't - contingencies. just because health| were in the lead, that didn't negate the fact that you and the first minister were the joint leaders of

the northern ireland government, do you agree? it the northern ireland government, do ou arree? ., , the northern ireland government, do ou arree? .,, ., the northern ireland government, do ou arree? ., ., ., the northern ireland government, do ouarree? . ., . you agree? it was a health pandemic and we were — you agree? it was a health pandemic and we were being _ you agree? it was a health pandemic and we were being very _ you agree? it was a health pandemic and we were being very much - you agree? it was a health pandemic and we were being very much guided by health— and we were being very much guided by health and there are times when you can _ by health and there are times when you can see — by health and there are times when you can see the chief medical 0fficer's_ you can see the chief medical officer's advice was that they 0fficer's advice was that they didn't— officer's advice was that they didn't need the niccma structures, but it— didn't need the niccma structures, but it would actually interfere with the work _ but it would actually interfere with the work they were doing. i have no other— the work they were doing. i have no other advice — the work they were doing. i have no other advice to come to that and that was— other advice to come to that and that was the difficulty. it other advice to come to that and that was the difficulty.— that was the difficulty. it must have been _ that was the difficulty. it must have been very _ that was the difficulty. it must have been very apparent - that was the difficulty. it must have been very apparent to i that was the difficulty. it must| have been very apparent to you that was the difficulty. it must - have been very apparent to you early on that this was more than a health pandemic and that it was raised serious issues for the whole of northern ireland. it serious issues for the whole of northern ireland.— northern ireland. it of course became increasingly - northern ireland. it of course became increasingly clear - northern ireland. it of course became increasingly clear it | northern ireland. it of course i became increasingly clear it was going _ became increasingly clear it was going to — became increasingly clear it was going to become much wider but we were only— going to become much wider but we were only in — going to become much wider but we were only in the executive from the middle _ were only in the executive from the middle of— were only in the executive from the middle ofjanuary. we were getting briefed _ middle ofjanuary. we were getting briefed from the head of the civil service, — briefed from the head of the civil service, we — briefed from the head of the civil service, we had these developments that i_ service, we had these developments that l have _ service, we had these developments that i have just referred to over the course _ that i have just referred to over the course of those weeks and it was becoming _ the course of those weeks and it was becoming increasingly clear of course — becoming increasingly clear of course were time that we needed the wider— course were time that we needed the wider structure which is why we moved — wider structure which is why we moved to— wider structure which is why we moved to that point in march. can ou hel moved to that point in march. can you help us _ moved to that point in march. can you help us with what you also say, paragraph 30, the executive committee had no direct role in

overseeing the response? is set up and until the 20th of february? being led by the department of health — being led by the department of health. is being led by the department of health. , , ., . , health. is your evidence this inrui health. is your evidence this inquiry that _ health. is your evidence this inquiry that you _ health. is your evidence this inquiry that you and - health. is your evidence this inquiry that you and the - health. is your evidence this - inquiry that you and the executive committee had effectively left this to the department of health? absolutely not.— to the department of health? absolutely not. that you had no responsibility — absolutely not. that you had no responsibility for _ absolutely not. that you had no responsibility for that? - absolutely not. that you had no responsibility for that? i - absolutely not. that you had no responsibility for that? i didn't i responsibility for that? i didn't sa that. responsibility for that? i didn't say that- the _ responsibility for that? i didn't say that. the department - responsibility for that? i didn't say that. the department of l responsibility for that? i didn't - say that. the department of health with a _ say that. the department of health with a lead department in terms of preparedness. we were being told that in— preparedness. we were being told that in all— preparedness. we were being told that in all of our advice and exchanges that we had, the department, the minister or cmo. it was clear— department, the minister or cmo. it was clear they were in the lead and despite _ was clear they were in the lead and despite at — was clear they were in the lead and despite at different times as asking for what _ despite at different times as asking for what else we needed to be doing in terms _ for what else we needed to be doing in terms of— for what else we needed to be doing in terms of that wider cross

departmental response, the view of health— departmental response, the view of health was— departmental response, the view of health was that it was too soon, it would _ health was that it was too soon, it would interrupt their work and i had no other— would interrupt their work and i had no other advice to counter that, so that was— no other advice to counter that, so that was the — no other advice to counter that, so that was the difficulty that we had. however. — that was the difficulty that we had. however, it isjust beyond this time that i_ however, it isjust beyond this time that i think— however, it isjust beyond this time that i think you can start to see the face — that i think you can start to see the face of— that i think you can start to see the face of things change in terms of the _ the face of things change in terms of the standing of the niccma. the executive of the standing of the niccma. iia: executive committee had of the standing of the niccma. ii2 executive committee had no direct role in foreseeing the response, you must expect except that the executive committee had direct responsibility for overseeing the response? i responsibility for overseeing the resonse? ~ , ., response? i think it is important aaain to response? i think it is important again to say _ response? i think it is important again to say that _ response? i think it is important again to say that all— response? i think it is important again to say that all the - response? i think it is important again to say that all the advice l response? i think it is important i again to say that all the advice we were _ again to say that all the advice we were given, both myself and arlene, was the _ were given, both myself and arlene, was the department of health were in the lead _ was the department of health were in the lead and we shouldn't disrupt the lead and we shouldn't disrupt the work— the lead and we shouldn't disrupt the work they were doing. that being said, the work they were doing. that being said. at— the work they were doing. that being said. at this — the work they were doing. that being said, at this stage we had been briefed — said, at this stage we had been briefed on _ said, at this stage we had been briefed on the 3rd of february, i think— briefed on the 3rd of february, i think the — briefed on the 3rd of february, i think the 10th of february, we were continually — think the 10th of february, we were continually engaged with the preparedness work and what was likely— preparedness work and what was likely happening, we were having conversations with health and with the head _ conversations with health and with the head of the civil service, but

very— the head of the civil service, but very clearly _ the head of the civil service, but very clearly shortly after that time that is— very clearly shortly after that time that is whenever the civil contingencies kicked in. | that is whenever the civil contingencies kicked in. i think the ruestion contingencies kicked in. i think the question commits _ contingencies kicked in. i think the question commits of _ contingencies kicked in. i think the question commits of a _ contingencies kicked in. i think the question commits of a yes - contingencies kicked in. i think the question commits of a yes or - contingencies kicked in. i think the question commits of a yes or no i question commits of a yes or no answer. did the executive committee have responsibility for the response to the pandemic until the 20th of february christian the executive committee, it was the department of health who were in the lead. that is not an answer. the health who were in the lead. that is not an answer-— not an answer. the department of health were _ not an answer. the department of health were in _ not an answer. the department of health were in the _ not an answer. the department of health were in the lead. _ not an answer. the department of health were in the lead. are - not an answer. the department of health were in the lead. are you l health were in the lead. are you sa in: health were in the lead. are you saying the _ health were in the lead. are you saying the executive _ health were in the lead. are you saying the executive committee| health were in the lead. are you i saying the executive committee did not have responsibility, the overarching responsibility, miss o'neill, for the response of the pandemic opened until the 20th of february? i pandemic opened until the 20th of februa ? ~ , ., ., , ., february? i think you have explored some of the — february? i think you have explored some of the unique _ february? i think you have explored some of the unique nature - february? i think you have explored some of the unique nature of - february? i think you have explored some of the unique nature of our i some of the unique nature of our political— some of the unique nature of our political apparatus and how we are established. we are a product of a peace _ established. we are a product of a peace agreement in 1998. we have a very silo _ peace agreement in 1998. we have a very silo mentality, departmental structure. — very silo mentality, departmental structure, there is ministerial

autonomy— structure, there is ministerial autonomy in terms of what a minister can do _ autonomy in terms of what a minister can do there — autonomy in terms of what a minister can do. there is legalities around overreaching into other ministers' response — overreaching into other ministers' response abilities. and i think you also have — response abilities. and i think you also have expressed some concerns about _ also have expressed some concerns about and _ also have expressed some concerns about and having come through the pandemic— about and having come through the pandemic i— about and having come through the pandemic i share this view that there _ pandemic i share this view that there needs to be some sort of emergency ability to step in and to change _ emergency ability to step in and to change that structure, at least temporarily for the period of a pandemic for another unpredicted circumstance such as that because as has been _ circumstance such as that because as has been explained the executive office _ has been explained the executive office and — has been explained the executive office and the row of deputy first minister— office and the row of deputy first minister has a coordinating role for the executive, the problem is you cannot— the executive, the problem is you cannot direct other ministers to do certain— cannot direct other ministers to do certain things, even the head of the civil service, — certain things, even the head of the civil service, because the unique circumstance can't direct other permanent secretaries to do certain things— permanent secretaries to do certain things so— permanent secretaries to do certain things so that makes i think the response — things so that makes i think the response to a pandemic or other

circumstances quite difficult in terms — circumstances quite difficult in terms of— circumstances quite difficult in terms of our own system of governance so ijust wanted to put that into _ governance so ijust wanted to put that into context. find governance so ijust wanted to put that into context.— that into context. and i think we understand _ that into context. and i think we understand that. _ that into context. and i think we understand that. i— that into context. and i think we understand that. i think - that into context. and i think we understand that. i think the - that into context. and i think we i understand that. i think the inquiry has seen evidence that the way departments operate and their legal position may close this compartmentalisation but that isn't the question i am asking you. i think the question that is being askedis think the question that is being asked is a far, far more fundamental one. it is whether or not you accept that there was a collective responsibility, which you were leading, for the response of the pandemic opened until the 20th of february. riff pandemic opened until the 20th of februa . .., , pandemic opened until the 20th of februa . , , pandemic opened until the 20th of februa. , ., february. of course i accept that we have a collective _ february. of course i accept that we have a collective responsibility - february. of course i accept that we have a collective responsibility to i have a collective responsibility to lead and — have a collective responsibility to lead and get us through the pandemic, but up until this time, the department of health were the lead department operating all the

preparatory work, responding to the pandemic, _ preparatory work, responding to the pandemic, as they were instructed by sa-e pandemic, as they were instructed by sage in— pandemic, as they were instructed by sage in terms of the influenza approach, they were very much in the lead _ approach, they were very much in the lead. howeverat approach, they were very much in the lead. however at this stage also, ccg staff— lead. however at this stage also, ccg staff had been working to start to coordinate that work across departmental and then it came to the attention— departmental and then it came to the attention of ourselves, myself and arlene, _ attention of ourselves, myself and arlene, in — attention of ourselves, myself and arlene, in the briefing of the 3rd of march, — arlene, in the briefing of the 3rd of march, that was the time in which we had _ of march, that was the time in which we had to— of march, that was the time in which we had to officially kick in and that _ we had to officially kick in and that is— we had to officially kick in and that is where we became the holder if you _ that is where we became the holder if you like _ that is where we became the holder if you like at the direction of 0rsini — if you like at the direction of 0rsini response. i if you like at the direction of 0rsini response.— if you like at the direction of 0rsini response. i think you have acce ted 0rsini response. i think you have accepted somewhere _ 0rsini response. i think you have accepted somewhere in - 0rsini response. i think you have accepted somewhere in that - 0rsini response. i think you have i accepted somewhere in that answer that there was responsibility, but just going back to your repeated reference to the fact that the department of health where the lead department, again, just to be clear about this, to make sure we are proceeding on a common understanding, the fact that there is a lead department in a response to a national emergency, it does not

obviate, does it, the responsibility, the collective responsibility, the collective responsibility that the executive committee had for the response to the pandemic? i committee had for the response to the pandemic?— the pandemic? i think that is correct insofar _ the pandemic? i think that is correct insofar as _ the pandemic? i think that is correct insofar as the - the pandemic? i think that is - correct insofar as the department of health _ correct insofar as the department of health were in the lead but at the film health were in the lead but at the rightjuncture after we health were in the lead but at the right juncture after we had health were in the lead but at the rightjuncture after we had been receiving — rightjuncture after we had been receiving considerable pushback we did get— receiving considerable pushback we did get to _ receiving considerable pushback we did get to the point where we had ccg stood — did get to the point where we had ccg stood up and the whole of the executive — ccg stood up and the whole of the executive was then in terms of the approach _ executive was then in terms of the approach of the whole executive was working _ approach of the whole executive was working together in terms of the ccg response _ working together in terms of the ccg response. but working together in terms of the ccg resonse. �* ., working together in terms of the ccg resonse. �* . ., ,., working together in terms of the ccg resonse. �* . ., ., , response. but what about oversight, collective oversight _ response. but what about oversight, collective oversight of _ response. but what about oversight, collective oversight of what - response. but what about oversight, collective oversight of what the - collective oversight of what the department of health was doing? what about scrutiny? what about seeking detailed plans and detailed understanding of what was being done on behalf of the people of northern ireland in order to respond to the pandemic? that was a collective responsibility, wasn't it? and

pandemic? that was a collective responsibility, wasn't it? and that did happen? _ responsibility, wasn't it? and that did happen? when? _ responsibility, wasn't it? and that did happen? when? from - responsibility, wasn't it? and that did happen? when? from very i responsibility, wasn't it? and that i did happen? when? from very early on, from did happen? when? from very early on. from our — did happen? when? from very early on, from our first _ did happen? when? from very early on, from our first meeting _ did happen? when? from very early on, from our first meeting of - did happen? when? from very early on, from our first meeting of the i on, from our first meeting of the health _ on, from our first meeting of the health minister in the 3rd of february i believe, he brought it first officially to the executive. then _ first officially to the executive. then at — first officially to the executive. then at every meeting after that is where _ then at every meeting after that is where we — then at every meeting after that is where we would have had the opportunity to ask questions, probe the information that was coming forward, — the information that was coming forward, interrogate the advice coming — forward, interrogate the advice coming forward, and that happened i think. _ coming forward, and that happened i think, certainly from the 3rd of february— think, certainly from the 3rd of february when it was first brought to the _ february when it was first brought to the executives of that is where the collective conversations and approach — the collective conversations and approach started to develop. | the collective conversations and approach started to develop. i am lad we approach started to develop. i am glad we have _ approach started to develop. i am glad we have located _ approach started to develop. i —n glad we have located where that scrutiny took place and people obviously go to the minutes examine that. i wanted to go to a briefing that. i wanted to go to a briefing that he received. if we could bring up that he received. if we could bring up in 0 0003091226. this was a

briefing that was prepared for you. and it was after the first cobra meeting, sorry, the second cobra meeting, sorry, the second cobra meeting that took place injanuary. if we could go over the page, please. and to the next page. paragraph two. you can see reference to the fact that the level of risk was due to increased moderate, yes? yes. it was due to increased moderate, yes? yes. ., , ., ., ., yes. it does go on to say in practical — yes. it does go on to say in practical terms _ yes. it does go on to say in practical terms this - yes. it does go on to say in practical terms this makes| yes. it does go on to say in - practical terms this makes little or no difference but rather reflects the increase in spread of the virus. health officials will continue to undertake same precautionary measure and levels of preparedness. did you

challenge in any way the advice that you are being provided with in this briefing to you or did you seek to ascertain what the change in risk signified? i ascertain what the change in risk sianified? ., �* ., ., signified? i don't have that absolute — signified? i don't have that absolute recollection, - signified? i don't have that absolute recollection, but| signified? i don't have thatj absolute recollection, but i signified? i don't have that - absolute recollection, but i will be very certain that i would have. we would _ very certain that i would have. we would have — very certain that i would have. we would have asked questions no doubt whenever— would have asked questions no doubt whenever we received a submission like this _ whenever we received a submission like this i_ whenever we received a submission like this. i do recall at that point again— like this. i do recall at that point again the — like this. i do recall at that point again the point being made about the department of health being in the lead and _ department of health being in the lead and they continue to take the same _ lead and they continue to take the same precautionary measure and level of preparedness. if we same precautionary measure and level of preparedness-— of preparedness. if we go down and 'ust look of preparedness. if we go down and just look at — of preparedness. if we go down and just look at what _ of preparedness. if we go down and just look at what you _ of preparedness. if we go down and just look at what you are _ of preparedness. if we go down and just look at what you are being - just look at what you are being told, the current situation, and look particularly at the first two bullet points after four. so we can see you are being told that it was

spreading throughout china and globally, we can see were being told that could be asymptomatic and range from mild illness to pneumonia, correct? , from mild illness to pneumonia, correct?- and _ from mild illness to pneumonia, correct?- and if _ from mild illness to pneumonia, correct? yes. and if we go to page four, correct? yes. and if we go to page four. paragraph — correct? yes. and if we go to page four, paragraph seven... so all devolved administration is to review reasonable worst case pandemic plans for preparedness. correct? yes. and if we no for preparedness. correct? yes. and if we go to — for preparedness. correct? yes. and if we go to page seven and paragraph one... and it is the... yes, thank you. it is that paragraph one that refers to those who are elderly and

who have existing health conditions being disproportionately affected. then it refers to the cobra again, the reasonable worst scenario planning as set out in side nine. would you have had the crip sitting alongside these minutes, i have heard they were provided to the ceo. i couldn't honestly say we had the crip at— i couldn't honestly say we had the crip at this stage, i am fairly certain— crip at this stage, i am fairly certain we would have as an addendum to the _ certain we would have as an addendum to the paper— certain we would have as an addendum to the paper but are not fully certain _ to the paper but are not fully certain. do to the paper but are not fully certain. ,, to the paper but are not fully certain. i. ., .. , ., to the paper but are not fully certain. , ., _ certain. do you accept that by the 30th ofjanuary. _ certain. do you accept that by the 30th ofjanuary, you _ certain. do you accept that by the 30th ofjanuary, you had - certain. do you accept that by the 30th ofjanuary, you had been - 30th ofjanuary, you had been provided with quite a lot of information that indicated just how serious the picture was becoming about the spread of covid—19 and the risks that it presented? br; about the spread of covid-19 and the risks that it presented?—

risks that it presented? by the 30th of janua i risks that it presented? by the 30th ofjanuary l was _ risks that it presented? by the 30th of january i was observing _ risks that it presented? by the 30th of january i was observing for - ofjanuary i was observing for myself — ofjanuary i was observing for myself what was happening internationally. by the 30th of january— internationally. by the 30th of january that is the first official submission that was coming to myself and the _ submission that was coming to myself and the first minister at the time. and it _ and the first minister at the time. and it is _ and the first minister at the time. and it is from that point that we are engaged because that was the preamble if you like to be health minister— preamble if you like to be health minister then presenting to the first executive meeting on the third. — first executive meeting on the third, quattro days later. that was what _ third, quattro days later. that was what informed the briefing that was given— what informed the briefing that was given and _ what informed the briefing that was given and also it equally informed, the cmo _ given and also it equally informed, the cmo sent a memo about world worst— the cmo sent a memo about world worst case — the cmo sent a memo about world worst case scenario influenza planning _ worst case scenario influenza planning. so worst case scenario influenza ”lannin. i. worst case scenario influenza ”lannin. , ., worst case scenario influenza planning-— worst case scenario influenza ”lannin. ,., ., planning. so did you start to ask ruestions planning. so did you start to ask questions about _ planning. so did you start to ask questions about what _ planning. so did you start to ask questions about what the - planning. so did you start to ask i questions about what the northern ireland reasonable worst case scenario planning for a pandemic was and what those plans look like? yes. and what those plans look like? yes, and what those plans look like? yes, and we would — and what those plans look like? yes, and we would have _ and what those plans look like? yes, and we would have been starting to work through that and you can see it being _ work through that and you can see it being developed across the meetings where _ being developed across the meetings where we _ being developed across the meetings where we asked more information to come _

where we asked more information to come through? fire where we asked more information to come through?— where we asked more information to come through? are you talking about the meetings — come through? are you talking about the meetings in _ come through? are you talking about the meetings in february _ come through? are you talking about the meetings in february that - come through? are you talking about the meetings in february that you i the meetings in february that you were scrutinising and asking about those plans?— were scrutinising and asking about those plans? yes. we would have i believe some _ those plans? yes. we would have i believe some around _ those plans? yes. we would have i believe some around this - those plans? yes. we would have i believe some around this time - those plans? yes. we would have ij believe some around this time also met with _ believe some around this time also met with the head of the civil service — met with the head of the civil service and they would have photos about _ service and they would have photos about the _ service and they would have photos about the civil contingencies work that was— about the civil contingencies work that was happening at official level and supporting health as the lead department. i can't emphasise that enough _ department. i can't emphasise that enough. that was the approach that was taken _ enough. that was the approach that was taken and we can reflect on that _ was taken and we can reflect on that i_ was taken and we can reflect on that. i know you don't want to get into affections now but we all will reflect _ into affections now but we all will reflect on — into affections now but we all will reflect on that but the department of were _ reflect on that but the department of were very firmly in the lead of the response up until this sort of period _ the response up until this sort of period where things started to change — period where things started to chan . e. ~ ., , , period where things started to chance.~ ., , , ., , change. what the inquiry is really interested in _ change. what the inquiry is really interested in is _ change. what the inquiry is really interested in is understanding - change. what the inquiry is really i interested in is understanding what planning was actually going on in northern ireland in february and what but in fact amounted to. that is just what i want to focus on now, understanding what you sow in february 2020 that reassure g were provided you with a real

understanding of what this reasonable worst case scenario planning was in resound. i think because it _ planning was in resound. i think because it was _ planning was in resound. i think because it was so _ planning was in resound. i think| because it was so unprecedented planning was in resound. i think - because it was so unprecedented and uncertain— because it was so unprecedented and uncertain times that we were all trying _ uncertain times that we were all trying to— uncertain times that we were all trying to find our way and ask the relevant — trying to find our way and ask the relevant department questions. as the situation was being developed. we were _ the situation was being developed. we were told consistently, the health — we were told consistently, the health advice was was we were sowing containment phase, we were told that the way— containment phase, we were told that the way the _ containment phase, we were told that the way the risk was referred to their— the way the risk was referred to their as — the way the risk was referred to theiras being the way the risk was referred to their as being moderate. the way the risk was referred to theiras being moderate. we the way the risk was referred to their as being moderate. we very much _ their as being moderate. we very much relied on the advice we were getting _ much relied on the advice we were getting from cmo and health in terms of the _ getting from cmo and health in terms of the progression. you saw a number of the progression. you saw a number of statements that were made to the assembly _ of statements that were made to the assembly chamber, so elected representatives could be informed in terms _ representatives could be informed in terms of— representatives could be informed in terms of the approach. but i think, when _ terms of the approach. but i think, when you _ terms of the approach. but i think, when you think back in terms of the health— when you think back in terms of the

health being the lead, i think it was understandable for all executive colleagues to believe that was the i’ili'it colleagues to believe that was the right approach that those early times— right approach that those early times because there was no other expertise — times because there was no other expertise outside of the department of health _ expertise outside of the department of health and because the response was due _ of health and because the response was due to — of health and because the response was due to be as per influenza planning _ was due to be as per influenza planning, i think that it became very— planning, i think that it became very clear— planning, i think that it became very clear then as things develop that we _ very clear then as things develop that we needed to have that wider systems— that we needed to have that wider systems approach and i think that is what you _ systems approach and i think that is what you see devout whenever myself and the _ what you see devout whenever myself and the first minister of that time -ot and the first minister of that time got together and started to bring together that ccg work. that got together and started to bring together that ccg work.- got together and started to bring together that ccg work. that is the northern ireland _ together that ccg work. that is the northern ireland first _ together that ccg work. that is the northern ireland first minister - northern ireland first minister michelle o'neill giving evidence of the covered inquiry in belfast. ms o'neill was deputy first minister of northern ireland during the pandemic from 11 january 2020 until 4 february 2022. alongside the then first minister, arlene foster, she was jointly responsible for leading the ni executive's response to the covid—19 pandemic. let's speak to our ireland

correspondent sara girvin. she gave an answer at the beginning talking about how she felt she did provide leadership to the people of northern ireland during that time but did also say that everything wasn't perfect all the time. . , ,., , ~' everything wasn't perfect all the time. . , , ~' . everything wasn't perfect all the time. , ~ ., ., ., time. absolutely. i think what a lot of --eole time. absolutely. i think what a lot of people have _ time. absolutely. i think what a lot of people have been _ time. absolutely. i think what a lot of people have been watching - time. absolutely. i think what a lot of people have been watching for. time. absolutely. i think what a lot i of people have been watching for and listening for this morning was what michelle o'neill would have to say about attending the funeral of bobby story. he is a very high profile republican and at the time of his inroad many people came onto the streets of belfast, large crowds, and that was at a time when covid restrictions, numbers and caps were in place to stop members of the public coming to gatherings and funerals, a lot of restrictions are placed at that time. there was a massive political controversy after the attendance of michelle o'neill and that funeral, a lot of people accuse her and other senior members of her party sinn fein are breaking those restrictions, something the

party always denied. other politician said that you are really undermining the public health messaging here and sending out a bit of a message that there is one rule for members of the public when it comes to mourning and attending funerals and another set of rules for politicians. they said that was really unfelt full and there was acting investigation into the incident and a decision was taken not to prosecute anyone in connection with the funeral stop we have heard from michelle o'neill on that today in terms of her leadership, as deputy first minister, at the time and her attendance at that. she said that the first time that she was sorry for going through it. that is very significant here in northern ireland. a lot of people were waiting to see if he would apologise or not. she said she knew her actions had compounded hurt and angered people and she was asked by baroness hallett the chair of the uk covid inquiry could you not have foreseen there would be a massive reaction to attending the funeral

and she said no, but she hoped to have known. michelle o'neill said she had accepted she diverted the public health message but said she worked every day to gain that trust back. baroness halep said to her, you did something that normal bereaved could not as she put it, you attended the funeral of her friends, michelle o'neill said she was sorry from the bottom of her heart. that is really at odds with what she said back in 2020 just a couple of months after that year when she said she would never apologise for attending the funeral of her friend and apologise for attending the funeral of herfriend and up to apologise for attending the funeral of her friend and up to something that caused a lot of hurt to some of the bereaved families through covid here in northern ireland. many of them are in that room listening to michelle o'neill�*s apology today. a lot of them were waiting for that. i have spoken to some of them just before and they said they were really curious as to what she had to say, haven't had a reaction from them yet but we are expecting to hear from that scene. michelle o'neill is still talking and giving a flavour of the kind of

difficulties there were in political relationships in the power—sharing executive here in northern ireland at the time of the covid pandemic. storm introductory collapsed three years in the run—up to it and only back for a matter of weeks when the first case of covid had been detected and we have been hearing a lot over the past three weeks about that, fractured relationships and how that impacted the decisions being made. michelle o'neill will give evidence to the inquiry for the rest of the day so we will see what else she has to say. tomorrow we will hear from baroness arlene foster who is the former leader of the dup and a former first minister of northern ireland. expect those themes are political dysfunction, poor relationships to very much be another theme that carries on into tomorrow and the evidence we will hear them. she tomorrow and the evidence we will hear them-— tomorrow and the evidence we will hear them. ,, .,, , , , hear them. she has been denying she was -la in: hear them. she has been denying she was playing politics _ hear them. she has been denying she was playing politics as _ hear them. she has been denying she was playing politics as we _ hear them. she has been denying she was playing politics as we have - was playing politics as we have talked about, the politics in northern ireland, quite difficult as the assembly had we just come back, but she was also seeing a lot of the policy was coming from the

department and indeed from the department and indeed from the department of health in england as well. . ., department of health in england as well. , . , well. yes, and actually during this three weeks. _ well. yes, and actually during this three weeks, we _ well. yes, and actually during this three weeks, we haven't - well. yes, and actually during this three weeks, we haven't actually l three weeks, we haven't actually heard a lot of what was happening in those relationships between london and belfast. as we now different parts and actions were taken in england, scotland, wales and northern ireland when it came to lock downs and exactly how they dealt with the coronavirus pandemic. different nations did different things at different times. this covid inquiry will be looking a lot about the decisions made in northern ireland and we haven't heard a lot about that, london, belfast dynamic but we should hear more about that later was happening because michelle o'neill was a deputy first minister. she would have been party to a lot of those discussions, to those decisions, to those interactions, and again when we hear from arlene foster tomorrow, the former first minister, those were really the two

women leading northern ireland throughout the pandemic. they were taking those key decisions and they were the ones in touch with london throughout that time and deciding on their own actions whether they were diverged from that path or not. as i say we are onlyjust diverged from that path or not. as i say we are only just about an diverged from that path or not. as i say we are onlyjust about an hour into michelle o'neill�*s evidence. we will be hearing from her into late this afternoon and then from arlene foster tomorrow so we definitely should get more insight. i will interru -t should get more insight. i will interrupt you _ should get more insight. i will interrupt you because - should get more insight. i will interrupt you because i - should get more insight. i will interrupt you because i want l should get more insight. i will interrupt you because i want to take you to the court of appeal because the family of grace o'malley, speaking. the attorney general�*s case has not been successful. this is disappointing but not unexpected. the nottingham attacks were entirely preventable. nottinghamshire police failed to execute a warrant for many months. a flawed investigation, no toxicology, overreliance on psychiatric reports.